Talk Heathen 09.34 08-24-2025 with Dr. Ben and Sofia Spina

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
As we approach spooky season, let's remember that demons are
only manifestations of cultural anxiety and nothing more. When a
sequel to a popular children's movie about witches came out
a few years ago, many believed it was demonic. One
mother in round Rock, Texas, very close to where I
am now, was invited on the local news to talk
about how she could feel adored to a demons being

(00:21):
opened into her home. She was on the news to
warn other parents about this. The news presented this information
with the same level of credulity as they do important
public health information. How will a child in round Rock,
Texas ever be able to distinguish between science and superstition
when we live in a culture where even the local
news presents anti demon measures as though they are as

(00:44):
important as information about the seasonal flu or a deadly
car crash on I thirty five. So do you think
demons ought to be warned against on the local news?
Do you think that I'm an agent of demons simply
by claiming they don't exist? Or do you agree with
me that demons have far too prevail of an impact
on our culture now and it's time we address that.
Either way, give us a call because the show is

(01:05):
starting now.

Speaker 2 (01:12):
Welcome everyone. Today is August twenty fourth, twenty five. I'm
your host, Doctor Bennon. With me today is Sophia Spina.

Speaker 3 (01:20):
Welcome. How are you this fine fine Sunday.

Speaker 1 (01:24):
I'm doing pretty all right. Actually, yeah, I'm pretty good.

Speaker 2 (01:28):
Kind of getting over the hype of you know, being
in the library altogether and now we're back.

Speaker 1 (01:33):
You know. Yeah that said, I feel like there was
so much going on that like maybe it'll be easier
to be a little more focused in some ways because
I feel like at the library it's just like it
was very alive, you know, which was great, But I
was I was, yeah, focused on everything.

Speaker 3 (01:48):
Definitely.

Speaker 2 (01:49):
It was so great seeing all the beautiful faces at
the back cruise and at the live studio shows. It's
always very you know, encouraging to see people coming out
and supporting what we do. And because so often we
see the negatives, we see the negative comments and all that,
so it's it's really heartwarming to see people that feel

(02:12):
like the show has made a positive impact on them
and that they keep wanting to come out and spend
time with us.

Speaker 3 (02:17):
So thank you everybody who made it out and if
you missed it.

Speaker 2 (02:21):
We're gonna keep talking like this, so you get FOMO
and come next year because it's a great time.

Speaker 1 (02:28):
It is really fun. And there was a you know,
an opportunity over the course of the weekend to see
doctor Ben perform Book of Mormon karaoke, So that was
pretty great.

Speaker 3 (02:38):
I did do that.

Speaker 2 (02:39):
It was it was super fun. With that being said,
Talk Heathen is a production of the Atheist Community of Austin,
a five oh one c three nonprofit organization dedicated to
the promotion of atheism, critical thinking, secular humanism, and the
separation of religion and government. And this is a live
call in show, so get your calls in.

Speaker 3 (02:59):
We have open lines.

Speaker 2 (03:01):
You can call in at five one two nine to
nine to one, nine two, four to two, or you
can use your computer browser at tiny dot cc slash
call THH. Please get your calls in. We want to
hear your stories about demons, ghosts, Jesus. If you've had
an experience that you know, maybe you're not religious anymore,

(03:23):
but you had you thought you had an experience with demons.
I'd love to hear your stories about the Satanic panic.
If maybe your family had an interesting interaction with the
occult and I want to know how you dealt with that.
Let's have some good conversations. We also are here to
talk about why you believe in God. We can talk
about religious fundamentalism, all kinds of topics, why you think

(03:48):
morality exists, do atheists even have morality? So many topics
open for discussion today on this show, but you got
to get your calls in in order for us to
talk to you. We're live every Sunday at one pm
Central on YouTube, but you can also find us wherever
you get your podcasts, so be sure to listen there
as well if you are a podcaster.

Speaker 3 (04:08):
Also, don't forget.

Speaker 2 (04:09):
To follow us on Patreon, where you can get access
to extra special content like after show, like early releases
of our episodes, another bonus content, So definitely check that out.
And we'll get to the top five patrons later on
in the show. But you could be competing to see
if you get your name on that list this week,
and with that, it's one of my favorite times of

(04:32):
the show, the question of the week, and we're gonna
bring up Kelly.

Speaker 4 (04:36):
Hi, Kelly, Hi, long time, No.

Speaker 2 (04:39):
See what you got for us today? Kelly, I have
got The question from last week was what shouldn't you
see in the atheist community?

Speaker 4 (04:49):
And I can think of a lot of different answers
for that one, but here are top three. From number
three from Chuck Gato's new anxioms of logic being invented
when the old ones aren't proving what you want to
be true. That was actually really thoughtful. Number two from
k Moore, what shouldn't you see in the atheist community?

(05:12):
Philosohbitory arguments about necessary entailments and contingent contingencies.

Speaker 3 (05:19):
I really like this one.

Speaker 2 (05:20):
I really liked that one totally, definitely in reference to
one of the calls we had last week.

Speaker 3 (05:26):
Yeah, that was exciting.

Speaker 1 (05:29):
Yeah, I can comment about that more too. Just it
feels like every time we get a call like that
as well, actual philosophy people right after are like, oh,
that person was not speaking nonsense, and I'm like, okay,
I'm not just an ibiot.

Speaker 4 (05:40):
But and our number one answer, also from Kai Moore,
what shouldn't you see in the atheist community? A second
coming that is unpleasant for those involved? Oh so I
can look a testa. When I read that, I snorted,
I thought that was a really good answer. Yeah, and

(06:03):
our prompt for next week is complete this sentence, not
even a demon would possess blank. So Sophia, do you
have you thought of an answer for that one?

Speaker 1 (06:14):
Yeah, I'm gonna go with something topical. James Dobson's carcass.
Oh they say not the Speaker of the dead, but
I mean I will. I don't care. Let's do it
like he deserves it. So that's not.

Speaker 4 (06:29):
Really speaking ill of him, is it.

Speaker 1 (06:31):
It's just it's just saying even the demons would avoid him.

Speaker 4 (06:34):
Yeah, well his corpse, not him, his.

Speaker 3 (06:36):
Corpse, right, that's true.

Speaker 1 (06:37):
I think I chose carcass. I think because I was
thinking about like a I was just going as graphic
as possible.

Speaker 4 (06:43):
Anyway, doctor Ben, what about you?

Speaker 2 (06:47):
I mean I was gonna say a la boo boo
because everyone thinks that these la boo boos are are
so demon possessed, like, and that's that's something that kind
of inspired the questions this week, Like there are videos
upon videos of people saying that. Well, initially the whole
evangelical Christian movement was like, oh, there's nothing that bad
about these la boo boos. It's just like another craze,

(07:08):
which like, yeah, it's just another marketing thing. Uh, And
you get a weird, creepy little little animal thing that
you can keep it home and it's a collector thing.
But then all of like Christian TikTok has exploded with
thinking that it's a demon and that people are being
like people have cursed stories, like they're being cursed by
these lab boo boos and it's really funny. But I

(07:31):
think like the demons probably think the laboobo is too
ugly to possess.

Speaker 1 (07:37):
Are you even seriously this this is a mockery.

Speaker 2 (07:41):
It's a mockery of the like if this is a demon,
like that is a mockery of what the actual demons
will look like, right, Like, if demons are supposed to
be these like ominous, like deathly figures, like aren't you
aren't you mocking the demon by saying it looks like
this cute little rabbit thing.

Speaker 1 (07:57):
Oh, it's always a little bit all over the place,
right because they're supposed to be evil and ugly and
crooked and all of that, but they're also supposed to
be attractive and tricky and you know, insinuate themselves and
just be the things that you're drawn to or love
the most. You know, that was what Pokemon when I
was a kid, Right, that was the more Harry Potter
or whatever it might be. Like, It's it's interesting how

(08:18):
it's supposed to be evil and bad but you also
love it and want it.

Speaker 3 (08:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (08:21):
See I was still allowed to do anything Pokemon as
a kid because of the Satana panic.

Speaker 3 (08:26):
So yeah, I'm sorry about that.

Speaker 1 (08:30):
I feel like it's a way too that, like we
keep kids isolated from their peers in a way like
if you're supposed to be in the world but not
of the world, make the world feel hostile to this kid,
and they won't ever want to leave Christianity. Right, If
you're always on the ounce, if you're always the other
because you can't participate in anything your peers do because
that's bad and demonic, then it's going to be it's

(08:51):
going to feel scary to like leave that and to
actually explore you know, you're.

Speaker 3 (08:56):
Only safe here.

Speaker 1 (08:58):
Yeah, coming up on Halloween, I feel like we see
that a lot again.

Speaker 2 (09:02):
Yeah, super awesome, awesome discussion. Thank you so much Kelly
for your question of the week. Definitely, everyone make sure
you get your comments your answers in the comment section.
If you want your response you read live on the
show next week, So again not the live chat, the
comment section below. Get your answers in there and we'll

(09:23):
see if you make the list.

Speaker 4 (09:25):
And I will see you at the end of the show.

Speaker 3 (09:27):
Thank you, Kelly.

Speaker 2 (09:28):
And we're also going to shout out the amazing crew
behind the scenes.

Speaker 3 (09:33):
So let's go to the crew cam.

Speaker 2 (09:35):
At those beautiful I want like a little airhorn thing
to go off like when we go to the crew
cam like WW style.

Speaker 3 (09:42):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (09:43):
I can sometimes.

Speaker 2 (09:47):
Definitely what you need to clip out that sound effect
you just made and use that every single time.

Speaker 1 (09:54):
It's a soundboard, a soundboard. I think that's a good idea.

Speaker 3 (09:58):
I shure write that out definitely.

Speaker 2 (10:02):
Well, I did want to talk to you a little
bit more kind of about this this topic, so we
kind of got into it a little bit. I know,
we were jumping the gun a little bit and going
into the question of the week, but kind of talking
about the impact of things like the Satanic panic and
knowing that your kind of field of expertise is you know,

(10:23):
families and marriage and all that, so kind of how
does stuff like this like when we kind of use
these pop culture references as kind of a scapegoat for
all these like bad things. How does that impact familial relationships?
Like do you think there is a deeper impact or

(10:43):
is it just kind of something silly?

Speaker 1 (10:46):
Honestly, I think it absolutely has a deeper impact, because sorry,
my familiar relationship did just invade the room. I really
apologize for that. You just got home from the shops.
But yeah, when I think about thinking about from the
sand of a parent, like the first thing, I feel
like it kind of corrupts. Is this the basic relationship
where you're looking at your child and you're thinking about

(11:08):
what's best for them, what you hope for for them,
and that you need to start introducing them to the
common the concept of demons in hell so that they
aren't tortured for all of eternity because we don't really
know when the age of accountability is right. We don't
really know like when they will need this knowledge, and
we better start warning them really quickly not to fall
into any kind of temptation or that there might be

(11:29):
like something working for them around every corner. Right, that
is something that it's interesting right now to like have
we'll do here next to me, because we haven't had
to have that conversation because why would we like what
would be beneficial about that? You know, it can be
used as this reason for very harsh discipline early on,
not because the parent necessarily wants to hurt their child,

(11:51):
but because they think that if they don't hurt them,
then they will be, you know, condemned for all of eternity.
And that just distorts this the most basic relationship, the
relationship where in the first two years of life, that
kid's whole job is attachment figuring out is the world safe?
Am I safe? Are my parents here to help me?
And it provides an answer of essentially, no, your parents

(12:13):
are not safe people because they're too scared to actually
care about your physical and psychological well being. They're more
scared of you being condemned for eternity. That was a
very ready answer.

Speaker 2 (12:25):
But no, that's super intense, and like, I hate that
people like parents are going about this and they think
that they're doing a good job, and I hear countless
stories of people being negatively affected by this. I know
that my family was very big into spiritual warfare and
all that stuff, Like we believed that demons were real,

(12:48):
that angels were real, that everything you do has some
kind of impact on this balance of life and death
for your soul with regards to eternity, which is an
interesting concept in that, like if we had kind of
this this cognitive dissonance where the one half was like, oh, yeah,
it's okay because Jesus already won, like we already know that,

(13:12):
like all this stuff is gonna happen, but we're gonna
win because we're on the right side and all that.
But then on the other hand, you have to micromanage
your life because every little thing in the meantime is
going to shift the balance of good versus evil, and
you don't want your soul to be taken. So like,

(13:33):
am I am I saved on my you know, like
am I saved because I got saved by saying the prayer?
Am I saved because I got baptized? Or do I
keep having to do these like little micro transactions with
God in order to make sure that I'm saved? Like
you can't have these conflicting ideas of what makes you

(13:54):
saved in terms of eternity. But it I think it
also gives you no definitely gives an unhealthy sense of
like blame for yourself like it's that shame game of
like if I don't do everything right, I'm gonna end
up going to Hell or I'm going to end up
causing a demon to have a foothold in my life.
And that's the phrasing people use is don't give Satan

(14:16):
a foothold, And like, are you saying that Satan is
so powerful that God can't protect you from this, like
that God isn't going to actually save you?

Speaker 1 (14:27):
Well, and that idea too of like I remember you
know because I and it sounds like you grew up
very religious, right, and this feeling of like when I
would ask questions about this because it did seem inconsistent
or confusing, I would be given the answer. One of
them was, well, the Bible says to work out your
salvation and fear and trembling, right, so like you're saved,

(14:48):
but also to continue working on it. So basically it's
deliberately vague to ensure that you don't have an out.
You can never stop wondering, you can never stop looking
over your shoulder, because then you need to church to
save you. Then you need religion to help you to
keep making sure you're I love micro transactions with God,
I wrote that down and you said it, because that's incredible.
I think the other one that I was always told

(15:10):
about giving Satan a foothold was like, well, God can
protect you if you ask God to, but if you're
welcoming Satan in, then that's what that's what allows them
to like get a foothold in your life. And that's
what things like Ouigi boards were told to. You know,
I was always told that that was it was just
opening a door, opening a window. And I do find
it really funny that, you know, what is it ready

(15:34):
SETI spaghetti is the same made by the same brand
that Owegian boards are, and somehow like they're able to
actually summon real demons, Like it's cardboard, man, it's cardboard
mass produced by Hasbro, like that this is all that
it is. And yet it's you know, you're opening a door,
so better watch out or you'll be consciously tortured for

(15:57):
all of eternity. And I guess during your own life
doesn't really mean anything in the concept of demons and demonology,
I feel like.

Speaker 2 (16:06):
Yeah, like it's just a very interesting concept and it
also not only impacted how I viewed my relationship with
my family, my relationship with society as a whole. It's
again okay, so there's this conflict again of simultaneously shaming
you for the things that you're doing, but also saying, oh,

(16:28):
but we're better than everybody else on the outside. And
so there's a lot of like cultural shaming too, and
I saw that especially within missionary communities, like viewing other
religions as having those satanic footholds or whatever, like, especially
Hinduism was a big target for this, like because they

(16:48):
have idols in the home. And the interesting idea that this, uh,
I remember what passage is specifically about keeping you know,
some kind of like keeping an idol in your home essentially.
And this is where again some of the some of
the arguments have come around like le booboo and stuff.
Is is keeping this reflection of like is this an

(17:10):
idol in your house or whatever? But like if you
look at the passage distinctly, it was in reference to
like actual idols, like actual like when they would raid
another civilization, take them over and keeping their their idol statues,
like they weren't supposed to hold on to those, They're
supposed to destroy them. And so it's specifically in reference
to other deities. It's not in reference to demons, it's

(17:34):
not in reference to any other mythical type creatures. It
was specifically specifically that God did not want them to
have idols in the home. So it's interesting that that
that that passage just ends up taking another another meaning
and therefore kind of diminishing the power of this deity
in the first place.

Speaker 1 (17:55):
I think, you know, kind of before the show, we
were talking a little bit about how elastic some definitions
can be, and when I think about idols and the
concept of it being a different deity, I just I
remember so many sort of evangelical Christian types making the
argument that, well, you've made it a god, you know,
like a loop Boo boo or a Pokemon or Cabbage
Patch kids or whatever. It is like that you're making

(18:17):
it that in your life, which is really interesting that
like God is not powerful enough that he could keep
from being replaced by trendy trading cards, you know, like
that as a third grader, this is actually apparently going
to have such way over their life that they'll again
be damned forever or be open to a demon because
of it. But it was just these definitions because God

(18:39):
or a god is such as guishy definition because an
idol or a demon, they're also so elastic in kind
of how we speak about them in modern times. They
could be anything, So the argument can change and be anything.
Do you need this new popular trend to be a
demon for the purposes of controlling your particular child, then
make it a demon for the purpose of controlling particular child.

(19:01):
You need to isolate them from their peers because you're
worried that they'll question Christianity. Great, don't let them celebrate Halloween,
you know, keep them separate, keep them alone. Do we
need to make sure that they can't read popular teen
magazines because those people are actually making themselves an idol?

Speaker 3 (19:16):
Right?

Speaker 1 (19:17):
You know, atheists, we're told that we make ourselves gods
all the time, because that's an easy way to try
to diminish, like that we actually believe what we say
we believe, and then we don't believe in a god.
Just just say that we're making ourselves an idol, say
that we're making ourselves a god. Because none of these
words really mean anything. They're all just, you know, whatever
it is that we've decided they mean. In this moment,

(19:39):
I am actually noticing that you said there, there we go.
It was like I wasn't seeing it there for a second.

Speaker 3 (19:43):
Anyway, I'm here, I'm here hello. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (19:48):
So anyway, I just feel like it's it because it's
so pliable. Why not just make it anything you need
it to be? Right then?

Speaker 3 (19:54):
Rhetorically, yeah, no, exactly.

Speaker 2 (19:56):
Do you have any thoughts about, like, let's say, for
people who are still deconstructing this piece of their lives,
because I know this is not an uncommon experience. I
believed when I was younger that demons would show up,
like and I didn't even believe necessarily that it had
to be for because I was doing something wrong. Like

(20:17):
I remember being taught that because I was a Christian
that I was a target for seeing like that Singe
was trying to uh take me away from God. And
so hearing the stories of the Bible of people having
demon experiences or even seeing pop culture references of people
having demon experiences like you have people just claiming that
they had certain things, or you watch you watch televangelists

(20:41):
like have call people up to the altar and then
like get do exorcisms right then and there, Like I thought,
you know, this could happen to anybody. But how how
do you think people can productively kind of deconstruct this?

Speaker 1 (20:57):
Well, I would say the first thing is recognize that
scrupulosity is a symptom sometimes of an actual mental illness
or something you could get help with from a therapist.
So scrupulosity in this instance is that kind of obsessive
focus on every single choice that you make as though
it's going to be an internal decision or a decision

(21:18):
with eternal ramifications. So I remember thinking about chocolate or vanilla,
like as an ice cream choice. Well, how is this
chocolate produced, how is this vanilla produced? How are they
from different companies? Do they have different implications when it
comes to like where the cows are from, or will
they have a different effect on me physically? And could
one of those effects be mind altering? And is that bad?

(21:39):
Is that wrong? Like when you're going down and down
this redrain of like trying to figure out the most
moral decision at all points, and it reaches a level
of significant anxiety. That is actually something that you can
learn coping strategies about from like a therapist or work
with therapists on that kind of anxiety, because whether or
not you might have clinical anxiety, have grown up in

(22:00):
a high control situation, will oftentimes at least mimic those symptoms.
You'll start feeling the same things. You'll be behaving in
a similar way. That's not normal. You don't have to
do that. Having high levels of scrupulosity I thought was normal.
I was constantly in my brain saying things like I
beg that God to come in, I demand that the
devil go out, Like whenever it occurred to me to

(22:22):
think that, I had to think that over and over
again and had to get it in the right order
or else I would potentially be condemned, Like I remember
constantly going through that just because the level of anxiety
was so high. I do also happen to struggle with
clinical anxiety, but it certainly didn't make it any better.
I would say, Yeah, So just recognize that some of
these things are like actual clinical symptoms that are arising

(22:44):
to level of distress for you, and you can get
help for those things, and it's okay to talk about
It's not just you, and this is pretty common with
folks in your similar situation. I think the other thing
I would say, too, is is start just by naming
them and talking about them with other people. If you
can so communities like this with the atheist community, it
was really helpful for me to be able to talk

(23:05):
with someone about how Like I watched the movie The Exorcist,
and I watched it with a really cool group of
people and a cool event actually put on by another YouTuber,
and I was like, Wow, this is the movie that
everybody thought was really this anti Christian movie. And I'd
be possessed if I watched, you know, because I'd always
heard of it like that. And afterwards, I was speaking
to someone and I said the name of the demon

(23:28):
out loud. His name is Bazuzu, just for those who
were wondering. And I was immediately in that weirdly heightened
state you get, like when you feel something is there
when you're in the woods, when you're like looking for things.
And I was just talking to my husband about like,
it's so weird that I know that's not real, and
yet it put me in that state because I expect

(23:49):
to be in that state even now. This was like
a year ago. This was not a long time ago,
you know, it was since I've been on this show.
Those are like physical reactions. We're ready to have when
we are expecting something to be scary or to hurt us.
And it was so deeply ingrained into my mind that
saying the name of a demon would make this happen,
that it still happened, even though I know that's not

(24:10):
true anymore. So, just being honest about it, open about it.
I told a friend She told me she had just
stopped having dreams about demons coming to get her, and
it took her going through quite a bit of deconstruction
to get there. So like having kind of a conversation
recognizing this is something other people go through, that there's
no such thing as being a perfect deconstructor, there's no
such thing as being a perfect atheist. It doesn't make

(24:32):
me less atheist. It doesn't mean it's suddenly true. The
fact that I did have a physical response of alarm
to saying something that I was really heavily told would
cause me harm, you know, like, it doesn't mean I
believe it. It doesn't mean anything, but it's good to
talk about it. I guess that was really long winded answer,
But those are kind of a few things I would

(24:54):
think of.

Speaker 2 (24:54):
Yeah, and I know we got a super chat recently
from Miranda Renzberger for ten dollars, saying, my mom to
stop me from reading The Wind in the Willows because
there's a pagan god in it.

Speaker 3 (25:04):
I read it anyway.

Speaker 2 (25:05):
It was a different book with talking animals that turned
me away from Christianity. And yeah, I think a lot
of people have similar experiences. It sounds silly.

Speaker 1 (25:14):
Yeah, we want to take something so beautiful and lovely
like Wind in the Willows, right, Like, that's a great story.
You know, you have mister Toad, like he even goes
to Hell at one point, right Like, he is like
condemned for his wild actions. It's even a morality tale.
But it's still kind of silly and interesting and whimsical
like childhood is. And it makes it gross and evil

(25:34):
and shameful, like how do you do that to a child?
You know?

Speaker 2 (25:39):
Yeah, and this reminder, we are here to take some calls.
So if you want to deconstruct any of this, if
you're going through thoughts about the demonic things, thoughts about
spiritual warfare, if if you're still afraid of Hell, anything
like that. Like obviously we're not your therapist. We can't
give you any specific like medical or therapy advice, but

(26:02):
we can help talk you through kind of what beliefs
maybe you're still holding on to. If there's anything you
just need some reassurance on maybe this isn't actually real,
we'd love to talk you through. Or if you have
a funny story like Miranda's, something that you were told
you couldn't you couldn't do as a kid because it
was evil, we'd we'd love to hear your funny stories

(26:24):
as well, So give us give us your calls on that. Also,
I'm curious too, just about I guess I think maybe
we're thinking similarly. But do you think that throughout kind
of the courses of history and the multitudes of Satanic
panics that we've had, do you think that women are
disproportionately like targeted by this or do you think do

(26:48):
you think there's a pretty even gender split.

Speaker 1 (26:51):
That is a really interesting question. I think it might
depend upon the specific fear that's being manifested, because I think,
like think about Salem witch Childs right, which is where
usually women and I think the fear of women having
agency was has always been something that people are scared of,
but women having knowledge agency. A lot of times the

(27:13):
people targeted were midwives, basically women who had medical knowledge
and would help other women and men were not included
anywhere in that equation. Necessarily, I think that those are
incidents in which women are likely to be targeted. But
then I also think that whenever we can, whenever we
get panicked about children, I think that there can be
feelings of like targeting whoever we feel is somehow altering

(27:36):
what we view as the ideal childhood. I guess is how.
I don't think I'm phrasing this quite as exactly as
I would like to. But when we have this idea
that childhood or children are pure and perfect, and that
we come in and we corrupt them, like I think
about the Satanic panic of the eighties, this idea the
time was changing, cabbage patch kids existed. There started to

(27:56):
be like you know, think about like Transformers or or
he Man or whatever it is like on TV, these
things that didn't necessarily look iconography wise like other more
traditional views of childhood or what we thought a traditional
pure childhood would be. We start looking around for something
to blame. Grown ups are uncomfortable. They start blaming whoever

(28:17):
is in contact with these children, whoever we can say
is actually trying to hurt them, So there were a
decent number of men caught up in the Satanic panic.
Also a decent number of daycare providers because they were
the ones that came in contact with children. So overall, like, yeah,
I think a lot of the time women are used
as the scapegoats. But I would also say it doesn't

(28:39):
anyone without power that we have decided has changed culture
can end up being a victim of this. I would
actually argue a lot of current trans panic come up
or comes up because we still have we have this
concept of like, well, we've decided that gender, particularly in childhood,
must mean this particular thing, and so emulating a similar

(29:01):
kind of moral panic. So I feel like moral panics
maybe just target those that are in general marginalized. Oftentimes
in religion that will be women, but not always. That's
again a really long winded answer.

Speaker 2 (29:13):
Yeah, that's awesome. I really appreciate your insight on that.
And we have somebody actually on the on the line
right now wanting to talk about God versus Satan's perfect
perfect segue into this. Let's talk to an she her
from California. What would you like to talk about today?

Speaker 5 (29:31):
Hello doctor Ben, Hello Sophie. I called a while back,
and I talked to Sophie and Christie about adoption and abortion.

Speaker 6 (29:40):
But the reason why I'm.

Speaker 5 (29:41):
Going today because you're bringing up Satan or demons and
Satanic panic and and like, you know, I listened to
these shows and I like some the way some of
the theists talk about God and Satan, Like, you know,
they'll say God is all powerful, but yeah, he designs

(30:03):
us in a way where we have free will, like
he has a plan, but we also have free will,
and you know, and because you know, and they'll say
they're being tempted by the devil. And it makes me
wonder is Satan more powerful than God? Because that's the
impression I get from these discussions.

Speaker 1 (30:22):
Yeah, I feel like I identified that question too, because
I think that is Satan more powerful than God? And
do we have agency? Or are we just the playthings
of higher beings? Right? Because if it's just this ping
pong between Satan and God and we're told we have
free will, but only it can only be used to

(30:44):
make the one singular right choice and avoid the one
singular wrong choice, why do we even exist? What is
our purpose in this cosmic drama? I think the idea
of that Satan himself himself, whatever gender we have for
Satan was so rebellious against God. That idea that Satan

(31:04):
rebelled and that's why he is evil does give the
impression that Satan is more powerful, and that is inherently
a threat to God. If God's plan is that we
are all saved, that's actually God's plan, but we might
do things that get in the way of that, or
Satan might do things that get in the way of that.
Then Satan consistently thwarts God pretty effectively, if not the

(31:27):
majority of the time. So I would sort of argue that, yeah,
it definitely seems like like Satan is more powerful than
God in this instance, I would agree with you.

Speaker 2 (31:36):
Right, And you have things like the story of Job
where apparently God was like tricked into hurting his own follower,
And it's like, how do we have all these stories
of God not, you know, course correcting in the way
that he could if he was omniscient and omnipotent, right, Like,

(31:58):
if he could do all these things, why is he
letting so many things get in the way? And if
he knew that the angels were going to turn on
him and go become Satan and the demons. Why did
he create angels under those rules? Like it seems like
there were bugs in the code and these have kind
of become features of the simulation and not not actually

(32:21):
been much of a problem. Like it seems like they're
all under what God is wanting, Like they're all under
God's plan. So like, was Satan part of God's plan?
Like were the demons part of God's plan? It sounds
like hell even part of that is part of God's plan.
It sounds like the plan is the problem here and
not like the plans a problem and the execution is

(32:41):
a problem.

Speaker 1 (32:44):
Seems like he didn't have a lot of great vision
for where he was going with this one, which is
so weird if you're all knowing, Yeah, how did you
grow up? And if that's something I might ask, did
you grow up being told that, you know, demons were
real and among us?

Speaker 5 (33:00):
Yeah, in a way, I grew up very large Catholic family.
I had nine siblings. We were all named after saints
by my mom. My dad converted from Christian Science to
Catholicism to marry my mom, so we were like really Catholic.
The crucifixes and all over the house. And she told us.

(33:22):
We had guardian angels, and she can't really talk that
much about demons, but she you know, kind of did,
and you know, yeah kind of you know, demons and
hell and yeah.

Speaker 1 (33:36):
I feel like a lot of iconography we associate with
demons comes from Catholicism. You know, I think about the Crucifixes,
I think about you know, think about the movie The
Exorcist and how you know that was such a such
a hit, I guess, and people felt like it was
it made them really believe in demons and it sort
of was a weird bit of propaganda almost for the

(33:57):
priest to come and save everyone. It's interesting because my
experience with demons comes from a very evangelical standpoint, So
it's yeah that that maybe it wasn't talked about quite
as much, even though there was maybe some underlying belief
that it was there.

Speaker 5 (34:13):
Perhaps Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, it was an underlying belief,
but not really talked about much. So yeah, and we
were also yeah, sorry, no, go ahead, no, well we
were also taught, like, you know, my mom would never say, oh,
you know, pray to God. I mean she did, but
do something, Oh, pray to this saint, pray to that Saint, pray,

(34:34):
you know, pray to Saint. Well, you know, I don't
know how that was supposed to work, but.

Speaker 1 (34:39):
It feels like there was just a lot of middlemen,
demons for Satan, saints, for God, Guardian angels. You've got
like everybody, it's a whole crowd happening here.

Speaker 5 (34:50):
Yeah, exactly exactly, Like where does God fit in?

Speaker 1 (34:57):
Yeah? Sorry, go ahead.

Speaker 5 (34:59):
Well I also had another question. I was starting to
call in and doctor Ben brought up about women being disproportionately,
you know, blamed for the evil coming into the world
or and you know, of course Adam and Eve obviously,

(35:20):
you know, and if and if it's all part of
God's plan, then she was going with the plant. But
so she Yeah, but but I also think of the
like the Pandora's Box, Yeah, where she gets a box
and she wasn't supposed to open it or all this
evil and then she opens the box. So those are

(35:41):
like two stories I can think of. I don't know
if there are others, but I think just those two.

Speaker 6 (35:46):
Alone tell me.

Speaker 5 (35:47):
Yeah, it almost disproportionately.

Speaker 2 (35:49):
It almost seems like across a lot of the patriarchal
cultures back then that these stories were used as a
means to control women, Like it seems like Pandora's Box.
Maybe maybe a message like hey, women, stop being so
curious about the world you live in. Uh, just stay quiet,
stay in the home, and let the men do that part.

(36:10):
It seems like Adam and Eve is the same way,
like blaming the women so that they have to be subservient.
And it definitely isn't accurate if you think about gender
as a spectrum and within even if you fully identify
with one side or the other, there's still a range
of personalities, a range of skill sets, a range of interests.

(36:33):
And to say that one group in its entirety is
number one to blame for all of all of the
garbage in this world, and also that all of them
are equally inferior to another group of people is very inaccurate.
And also, you know that just tells tells us that
maybe they that was the intent. The intent was to

(36:56):
keep women calm and quiet and unheard.

Speaker 1 (36:59):
So yeah, I.

Speaker 5 (37:01):
Think we'll look at how yeah sorry.

Speaker 1 (37:03):
Oh no, no, go ahead.

Speaker 5 (37:04):
Well, I also think about how it plays out in
society today, like when a woman is sexually assaulted or
a victim of domestic violence, or something, and you know,
they blame her. You know, what was she wearing?

Speaker 6 (37:17):
How was she acting?

Speaker 5 (37:18):
She shouldn't have talked back, she shouldn't have done this,
she shouldn't have worn that, like like saying that, Yeah, no.

Speaker 1 (37:25):
I think something that the idea of Like we kind
of mentioned the concept of the IBLP earlier in the
pre show because these documentaries and discussions kind of came
out about it, and there's a huge focus on demons
and on protection. And when I think about how victims
in general, but women in specific here get blamed for

(37:47):
anything that happens to them, I think about the umbrella
of protection that was advocated for largely by the IBLP,
but it did seep over into other evangelical communities growing up,
like the ones that I was a part of, where
there's so to be God and then the father in
the household, and then the mother and then the children.
And if you step outside of your umbrella of protection,

(38:08):
bad things might happen to you, and that would essentially
be your choice, because left you've left the hierarchy that
God created for you to keep you safe. And this
idea that we might say something like what was she wearing?
Or we might say something like, well, was she drinking
or whatever it might be. But at the end of

(38:29):
the day, it's really all just ways to say that
you stepped outside of the realm that we have decided
you should be safe in, and we are not going
to protect you outside of that. We're not going to
blame anyone for victimizing you. Outside of that. You're not
playing your role correctly by drinking, by dressing in a
way that I might disapprove of, by whatever it is
that we get blamed for. Yeah, I agree with you,

(38:53):
and I think it's just sort of that take of
you need to say in this culturally bound area.

Speaker 5 (38:59):
Right, Yeah, let's see. I had something to add to that,
and it just left my mind. But like, well, like okay, yeah,
like but sometimes it's worth sometimes even within that umbrella,
you know, women, little girls, you know, children are victimized

(39:20):
by that, you know, within the umbrella. I you know,
you know, they could have a family member, yeah, you know,
or someone in the church, yeah, abusing them, so you know,
and then they still get blake.

Speaker 1 (39:33):
One hundred percent. I remember, you know, watching a sentencing
hearing for someone who had been accused of CSA for
YouTube purposes I'll call it that. And one of the
things that this person said was that they that the
person who who had been accused, who had pled guilty,
this was the sentencing part of things, was that they

(39:55):
had evil inside They must have some evil inside them
because they were a very religious person. And the thing
that really stuck out to me in that in saying
it that way, was that it wasn't you that somehow,
you know, you didn't just hurt children in a really deplorable,
disgusting way because you wanted to. You did it because

(40:15):
there was a demon. You know, you did it. It's
not really your fault if you are you know, this
was a religious man, arguably head of a family. You know,
when it was him victimizing someone, it wasn't really his faults.

Speaker 5 (40:26):
Right right, And then that whole free will thing flies
out the window.

Speaker 1 (40:30):
Right, Yeah? What good is? What good is following a god?
If you can't even get the evil out from inside
of you, that would cause you to victimize the most
vulnerable people.

Speaker 2 (40:42):
You have free will, Yeah, to stay within your own
little umbrella.

Speaker 3 (40:47):
That's that's what it means.

Speaker 2 (40:48):
Like you don't actually like you have the free will
to get out of your umbrella, but don't where bad
things will happen. So you have free will up until
the point that you start disobeying, and then and then problem.

Speaker 1 (41:00):
And if you're the person who is in charge, like
a man in the church might be, then you get
to come up with whatever theology gets you off the
hook for that, and others need to be beholden to
it because you can back it up with a Bible
verse and say that it's actually a demon.

Speaker 2 (41:13):
Oh yeah, well, and these are the groups that don't
have an issue with slavery either. So it's like, sure,
the whole thing we got into of like how you
discipline your child if they go out and you know,
expose themselves to demons or whatever, it's like that stuff
sure ends up being justified because they can already justify

(41:33):
this other stuff. Like so it's not like they are
making an exception for like, oh, this is like one
thing we're going to accept. No, they're accepting some very
horrendous things in an attempt to beat the evil out
of you, to beat the demons out of you. Also,
with that stigma related to medical conditions and psychological conditions,

(41:54):
the fact that there's a lot of victim blaming there
you only got this clinical illness because you did something wrong,
And that's a mentality that absolutely needs to go away.
And like people think that that that stuff is going away,
and to a certain extent, it is, but there's still

(42:15):
some a lot of communities, especially where they're not accepting
of modern science and modern medicine, they are still believing
this stuff, and they still, especially with regard to children
who don't have a choice in the matter, don't have
autonomy in their own health care, it's still very prevalent.
So I think we still need to, you know, talk

(42:37):
about these issues. And I'm happy that we're bringing a
lot of this up because it's there's a lot of people,
I think, even in the side chat, that are saying
that they've been affected by this very topic. Yeah, yeah,
of yeah, just using whatever is in reality to turn
it back on the other person and say, well, it's

(42:58):
your fault, it's your fault that this happened to you.

Speaker 1 (43:00):
So or a lot of times I think it will
be couched as it's not necessarily your fault, but you
could have prevented it. You didn't have to put yourself
in that situation, you know, like that maybe it's not
directly your fault, but if you hadn't been doing this thing,
then it wouldn't have happened. It's very similar to when

(43:21):
my older brother, who's wonderful. I love him, he's great.
He's less than two years older than me, though, so
we were both idiot children at the same time, when
he would close his eyes and swing a stick and
say that it was my fault if I got hit
with it because his eyes were closed, and then he
would start running toward me just with his eyes closing
a stick, but it was still my fault because if
I didn't manage to dodge, well, I was one with

(43:42):
my eyes open, so you know, it was just me.
It's we can construct situations where we are never to blame,
where everyone else has done something that's equally as wrong
or more wrong. And I think that the modern church,
probably the church for all of time, but I right
now is very good at doing that, you know, And

(44:04):
if you are someone who I mean, I can't think
of a single old patriarch of the church, you know,
James Dobson just died this week. Any of these old,
terrible decrepit private jet owners who isn't a disgusting soul person,
but who hasn't built a career on saying that everyone
else is like that's literally their job.

Speaker 5 (44:25):
Yeah, yeah, don't. I do not shed tears for James Dobbs.

Speaker 6 (44:31):
Yeah, not.

Speaker 5 (44:33):
Know, he's very he was very anti gay and my
son is gay, and you know, I've always worried about him.
But you know, with Trump taken office and dives like
him spreading the stuff around for decades, I worry about
him even more.

Speaker 3 (44:49):
Yeah, so we have to stop.

Speaker 2 (44:51):
We can't go into the political side of things, but
we can can steer back to the evangelical piece.

Speaker 3 (44:57):
But yeah, we're an agreement.

Speaker 2 (44:59):
There's a there's a lot of people, particularly within the
church that are you know, spreading harmful ideas and that
are that are getting people hurt. So it's important that
we make sure that our ideas are coming from the
right place and that you know, we're not we're not
hurting the next generation because of these ideas.

Speaker 1 (45:20):
But then you get people like I mean.

Speaker 5 (45:23):
No, I was just you know, because it was really
into you know, beating kids like as a form of discipline,
wasn't he Yeah, believe me, I was beaten brutally, you know, Well,
you know, most all my siblings were. But you know what,
it didn't It did not help. You know, it made

(45:43):
me scared of my parents, but it didn't make me
respect them.

Speaker 1 (45:47):
Yeah, that's a really I feel like that is a
very good summation of the impact of beating or physically
hurting a kid. Is that we often use the term
respect and associated actually really with fear, and particularly when
we're thinking about a family, and some families that might
view themselves as more traditional and they talk about how

(46:08):
you need to have respect for older generations. What that
means a lot of the time is just fear of them.
But you're not going to look to them as somebody
who's wise about how to live a life. You're not
going to look to them as someone who can help
solve problems, because they've already shown that they can't. They've
already shown that they're going to resort to the basist
form of you know, I guess see a human throwing

(46:31):
a fit, which is hurting a child. Yeah. I think
that that's just a really, really good way to put it. Like,
I think one of the things that in marriage and
family therapy you always talk about is that you can't
not communicate. Like people might think they're good at communication,
bad at communication, whatever, But no matter what you're doing,
it's communicating something. Hitting a kid is never communicating. Oh

(46:56):
here's actually the right way to do things. It's just
communicating I'm unregulated as an adult. I don't like the
thing you did, so you're going to get hurt. That's
all that. That is communicating. Very few people, I think,
are able to really remember consistently why they were actually
getting hit, spanked, whatever. They just remember that they got

(47:17):
hit and that their parent does not someone they can trust. Like,
what a horrible way to go about life. What a
horrible thing to do to your child.

Speaker 5 (47:24):
Yeah, oh yeah, I mean we got beat with tree branches.
Oh yeah, yeah, it was. It was rough, It is painful.
There was no way I was going to do that
when I had a child in my own and I
kind of went maybe the opposite way. I might have
been a little too permissive with my son. So I
know that's good either.

Speaker 1 (47:42):
I think that that's true. It can be difficult, and
I think it's actually a pretty common response when it's
like I got hit a lot, so I'm gonna, you know,
just just do the opposite. But I think it's interesting
because sometimes we say that parents who do things like
hit are actually strict, when realistically they're just capricious. They'
unpredictable because getting if you are a parent who is

(48:06):
using violence as a discipline strategy, then it's usually not
going to be equally distributed in a proportional way for
every offense, and so it's not really strictness, it's just
random violence. And I would say that I do prefer
permissive parenting to that.

Speaker 5 (48:23):
Yeah, I do too, but that comes with its own
set of you know, problems too.

Speaker 1 (48:28):
That's very true.

Speaker 5 (48:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (48:31):
Yeah, any other topics or questions that you want to address,
I'm not sure.

Speaker 5 (48:39):
I mean, I just you know, I say this is
probably my favorite show out of all of them.

Speaker 6 (48:44):
You guys are always so proud of that.

Speaker 1 (48:47):
Well, thank you.

Speaker 5 (48:47):
Yeah. Yeah, I've always wanted to talk you know, I've
talked to Sophia before, and you know, you just are
so sweet and I always wanted to talk to you,
doctor Benn, So I was really happy. Actually I'd have
a question, but it's way off the topic of what
we were talking about.

Speaker 6 (49:04):
I'm just something I'm.

Speaker 5 (49:05):
Curious about, and as as a medical doctor, you know
I want to. Okay, So I was born in a
family of ten kids. My older brother was number four,
I was number five, and my sister was number six,
and we were all born with aortic valve defect, and

(49:26):
we're the only ones that were born that way. And
it's just weird that it happened to the three middle kids,
I thought. And I don't know if that's something that's
common or.

Speaker 2 (49:36):
I don't not necessarily with the order of the children.
It's possible that there's some connective tissue disorder in the
family or some kind of you know, congenital thing that
is is already kind of in your family, or was
prone to happen anyway, and just the lottery kind of
happened the way it did. I mean, the more the
more children you have in a family, the higher likelihood

(49:58):
of you know, some thing being expressed in the in
the genes of those kids.

Speaker 3 (50:04):
Uh So it's probably a chance.

Speaker 2 (50:06):
There's a lot of different factors that could have led
to that, but I don't think the order of the
children necessarily made that happen more likely, you know, events
within the DNA itself or within kind of the events
leading up to the delivery so.

Speaker 5 (50:23):
All right, Yeah, I've always I've always been so curious
about that.

Speaker 6 (50:27):
I really appreciate that.

Speaker 2 (50:29):
Yeah, no problem, So thanks, yeah, thanks for the question.

Speaker 3 (50:37):
Anything else you got else?

Speaker 5 (50:41):
And no, not not not right now, but if I
would love to call back sometime with another topic. I mean,
you guys are just so great, you know, yeah, you're
just you're so nice to the people, you know. So
I just I really really enjoy the show. It's really
my favorite one.

Speaker 3 (51:00):
Yeah, thank you so much for I really appreciate it.

Speaker 5 (51:04):
Thank you you guys, have a great day, you too,
Bye bye bye.

Speaker 3 (51:09):
It is sweet.

Speaker 1 (51:10):
Yeah, a sweet person.

Speaker 3 (51:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (51:12):
A lot of the stuff that we were kind of
talking about ahead of time kind of all culminated in
that in that call. Yeah, oh no, no, you go
ahead in them all.

Speaker 3 (51:23):
Well.

Speaker 1 (51:23):
I was just going to mention that something that when
you mentioned the idea of like hurting future generations, I
kind of think about how often corporal punishment or strictness
with children. Strictness I put in quotes because it's really
just violence with children is phrased as a way to
preserve them or to help them. It has similar talking
points to this kind of new idea of toxic empathy

(51:47):
that actually by being kind, you're hurting someone because you're
empathizing or letting them get away with wrongdoing. Realistically, I
think there's no limit to that kind of thinking. Like
if you argue that being empathetic is a toxic trait
and is actually hurting people because you're empathizing with them
doing something wrong, then you can kind of do almost

(52:10):
anything and just say, well, I couldn't I couldn't co
sign what they were doing, I couldn't agree with what
they were doing. Wasn't what they were doing bad though,
So say you hit your kid with a cane or
a switch or something, or you leave any kind of
lasting mark, but the kid was being defiant, they shouldn't
have been doing what they were doing, so I get
to do whatever I want. I think it's interesting just

(52:30):
the idea of like not harming future generations, that they
will view that as the way to keep future generations
from being harmed when they just have no concept or
no admission perhaps that all this is creating is a
world in which everybody's been hit And yeah, that's just
what it made me think of.

Speaker 2 (52:50):
So yeah, good stuff like in discussion topics, not actually
good things happening. Don't take that out of context, but
I do want to hear if anybody wants to talk
to us about the idea of toxic empathy, let us know,
Like we we have open lines, give us a call.
I know there's somebody in the side chat who keeps

(53:12):
talking shit and I keep saying, hey, call in, We're
ready to have a conversation about it, but this person
still still out there, just.

Speaker 3 (53:21):
You know, chatting away behind.

Speaker 1 (53:26):
Me, daddy.

Speaker 2 (53:29):
But yeah, with that, I do have a few announcements
before we get on our next, our next soapbox, and
one of them so super excited to announce. So if
if you all liked the events of this past weekend,
the back Cruise, the in studio shows, there are more
events coming your way in one of them on the

(53:50):
twenty ninth of August. So that's this upcoming of Friday.
I believe the ACA will be hosting a presentation by
Seth Andrews, the one and only Seth Andrews, with an
introduction by genetically Modified Skeptic and the Anti Bot. So
if you're interested, definitely join us at the Round Rock
Public Library for a fun evening of pizza, conversation, critical

(54:14):
thinking and all that jazz. You can get your tickets
at tiny dot cc slash Evening with Seth and Seth
is a great guy, so definitely it's worth It's worth
it if you're nearby, even if you're not nearby.

Speaker 1 (54:28):
I did not know there would be pizza. Gotta say,
I am going. I will be there. So if you
want to meet Sophia, Spita and Chap before or after
whatever star power I have there, you go. Also, I
mentioned round Rock specifically in the cold Open because that's
where they put they platformed the mom worried about demons
on the news, and so I kind of love that

(54:48):
this is also being hosted in a round Rock public space.
That's amazing.

Speaker 2 (54:53):
Just go to the part of it and if you
want to go to round Rock or any other place
near you and get some people to call into the show.
We have flyers now at tiny dot cc slash ACA flyers.
You can print them out from your own computer. You
can also go to a do they still have kinkoss
still exist? You can go to one of them places

(55:14):
that have printers and you can print them out and
post them at the realm Rock Library if you so choose,
or you can go to a different library and post
it or put somewhere else. You can post those flyers.
You can even I bet you could put some at
a church bulletin board. Just sneak one in there, go in,
put that, put that flyer there and get people to
call in so that they can defend their faith and

(55:36):
we can defend our non faith. So definitely show those.
And if you do put a poster out there, get
a picture and send it to TV at atheist typhoncommunity
dot org and we might feature it on a coming show.

Speaker 3 (55:50):
That would be super cool.

Speaker 1 (55:52):
When you mentioned libraries, you know where else has printers, libraries,
librarries and free or very cheap for patrons to use.
So I you know, I am a lover of local libraries.

Speaker 2 (56:05):
So absolutely absolutely you can also support us by liking
the video, sharing it out, sending super chats that we
we've already read one on the show, but we'll read
as many as we can for the remainder of the show.
We also have merch get your Talkiathen merch at tiny
dot c c slash merch Aca. We have t shirts,

(56:26):
we have hoodies, crop tops, hats, tumblers, mugs. You know,
I keep reading this list of things that I can get,
and I have yet to purchase a talk Heathan crop tops,
I feel like, I, okay, who wants me? Maybe I
can even do this on the show. Maybe I need
to get one of them talk you than crop tops

(56:46):
and wear it on the show. I'm sure that the
crew would not have any issue with that.

Speaker 1 (56:51):
I'm sure they would openly support this.

Speaker 2 (56:54):
You know, off, please please wear something else? I would
We get so many callers, the people telling me to
take off the crop top. So if you want to
call in and let me know why I shouldar should
not wear a Talkie than crop top.

Speaker 3 (57:10):
We have open lines.

Speaker 1 (57:11):
So I love the premise that people could like call
in or vote for like what people are wearing on
the show like that.

Speaker 3 (57:20):
Normally you can't. But that's just that is my invitation
to you.

Speaker 2 (57:22):
That is a special offer only because it's TALKI than
merch and I need Taki.

Speaker 1 (57:27):
Than paper dolls, you know, just like making the different
hosts and they could wear different things and like, yeah.

Speaker 3 (57:34):
We need them.

Speaker 2 (57:35):
We need like our own little demon possessed doll from
talk Heathen that we can have in our houses.

Speaker 3 (57:41):
Yes, I need that.

Speaker 1 (57:42):
I may or may not own several creepy dolls. I
really should have had them behind me for this show.
But oh wow, that's I think that's a great idea though.

Speaker 3 (57:50):
That is amazing. We also have we have a voicemail
that we can listen to. You. Do you want to
hear the voicemail, Sophia, Yeah, let's do it.

Speaker 6 (58:00):
Yeah. I just wanted to pass on that I agree
with pretty much everything you're saying. But that's easy. I
think religion certainly is man made. What I would suggest is,
I don't know if you've been following following it, but
look at what's coming up with or coming out with
quantum consciousness and how some people think we just live

(58:22):
in a giant matrix. So there's some interesting things they're
finding out about the brain, and you know that may
be something. All right, good luck.

Speaker 1 (58:32):
So my first take is that sometimes when we start
talking about things whenever there's quantum in the name, I
become a little skeptical initially because like it can mean anything.
We can have quantum, water, quantum, like it doesn't always
actually refer to something scientific. Oftentimes, pseudoscience really loves the
term quantum. Looking this up real quick, it looks like

(58:56):
the idea of like the quantum mind or quantum consciousness
suggests that like the consciousness arises from quantum mechanical phenomena
like superposition and entanglement rather than solely classical neural processes.
I feel like it's kind of one of those theories

(59:16):
that it reminds me of philosophers a little bit, when
I'm like, Okay, maybe this has some validity to it,
but the amount will need like break down the meaning
of everything here. It almost feels so jargony from what
I'm initially finding that that makes me skeptical too, like
if something is relying on jargon to seem legitimate. Yeah,

(59:38):
I think we're discovering amazing new things all the time,
but I also think that because we know there's a
lot we don't know, it leaves a lot of space
for somewhat sudicientific explanations that just feel good and feel
really cool. But it almost starts to fill the same
void of like a God shaped hole in things like
we just put God wherever. I think sometime you put

(01:00:00):
quantum something wherever as well.

Speaker 2 (01:00:02):
Definitely, this is the same kind of thing of using
quantum as kind of this buzzword that does a lot
of heavy lifting. In the same way, like in the
wellness industry, you have things even the term wellness, but
you have things like natural uh like uh what other
other things like what is an adoptagen?

Speaker 1 (01:00:21):
Tell megen? Does you know that's always in these different products, right?

Speaker 3 (01:00:27):
Or the circular reasoning?

Speaker 1 (01:00:31):
Yeah, therapeutic great, essential oil. That's you know, like what
is that doesn't mean anything that you know, it's just
something that kind of feels good. Like I learned from
one of my children's board books that like, I believe
a quantum, Like there's actually a unit of measurement that
essentially is like the amount of energy it takes for
an electron to move from one spot to another. I
might be don't do not just take my word for

(01:00:53):
that from that, but it was something about like the
movement of pieces inside of an atom. And it was
just kind of like, all right, so what does that
have to do with quantum, birthing, quantum water, quantum, Like
what does this all mean?

Speaker 2 (01:01:05):
You know, right, it's all Deepak Chopra and nonsense. You
might like, yeah, it's like like you're saying, it's kind
of like the God of the gaps. It's just we
don't know how to explain these things. We're going to
insert this other thing, And spiritualism does the same thing too.

Speaker 3 (01:01:21):
It is just as.

Speaker 2 (01:01:22):
Guilty, Yeah, answering their own misunderstandings with whatever they can
pull out of their asses.

Speaker 3 (01:01:29):
So it's something we just have to.

Speaker 2 (01:01:32):
Think more carefully about. What are the terms that we're using.
Can we explain what we mean by this thing? Like
if you want to use a term quantum, or you
want to use a term natural or whatever, it's fine,
but explain to me what you mean by that, because
it's not going to be like we might not be
on the same page with whatever's being said. Right, Like
if if if someone says the term organic, like of course,

(01:01:55):
colloquially a lot of people mean like use of certain
pesticides or not certain pesticides, which organic does not mean
there's no pesticides used. It just means that different ones
are used, and often in higher concentrations. But like if
you say organic to like a layperson need to stay
organic to a chemist, those are going to be very
different things, like of course this cucumber is organic. There's

(01:02:16):
carbon in it, there's nice rogen in it, there's like
the words mean different things. Depending on the group that
you're in and what context you have, So like, we
have to carefully define what we mean by all these things.

Speaker 1 (01:02:30):
Yeah, no, I fully agree. I think that it's fun, though,
to just make up quantum stuff. So now for the
rest of the day, I'm just gonna be everything's gonna
be quantum. Do you want to move on to the
next quantum thing we have to respond to?

Speaker 3 (01:02:44):
Yeah? Yeah, so there was.

Speaker 2 (01:02:47):
So we had a poll in the side chat and again, like,
there are people saying things in side chat and responding
to the polls, but they.

Speaker 3 (01:02:54):
Are not calling into the show.

Speaker 2 (01:02:55):
We have an open line for you to call in,
and we asked the question of are women too emotional
to be in leadership positions? And somebody out there said yes.
And if you believe that that's true, we want to
talk to you. We have a woman here, a woman. Surprise,

(01:03:16):
we have a woman and a trans man. We are
here ready to answer this question. Like, tell us why
you think women are too emotional to be in leadership positions?

Speaker 1 (01:03:27):
Mm hmm. Maybe they're scared I'd be too emotional. In
my response, like, yeah, I mean, I think it's always
interesting when you get this line so often paired with
being told women can't do things because men would be
too emotional about it. So I remember being in the

(01:03:49):
church being told that women aren't good at leading because
they're too emotional, YadA, YadA, YadA. Also being told women
can't lead because they can't be on the stage because
men are very visual, and so I guess they would
be too sexually aroused during church and they can't control that.
So I am not supposed to be on a stage,

(01:04:10):
even though I'm the emotional one. It becomes really ridiculous
if we drill down at all. I also kind of
going back to that idea of like family and raising children,
and are you know how these things can distort that
when I think about this expectation that boys just don't
have emotions in the same way, or that they shouldn't,

(01:04:33):
or that in order to seem unfeminine and to be
seen as a potential leader, you can't be honest about
or forthright in your emotions. That just breaks down boys.
Like recently, someone mentioned something to me about how well
you know, women cry more than men, and honestly, that's
not true at all. If you see men in therapy,

(01:04:55):
men cry way more. In my experience than women do
in therapy, because if you say something to the effect of, actually,
you know, it's okay if people treat you with kindness
and you deserve to be treated with kindness, a man
might cry for half an hour. That's that, you know,
they're they're just so stopped up, so broken from these
ways of thinking that it's really common and invariably. And

(01:05:19):
I feel like this happens at parties two as part
of why I became a therapist. So people like, you know,
are going to pay me to talk with me about
these things. But you just tell a dude like, hey,
I'm sorry, that sounds like that was a really terrible
relationship and I hope you're able to, you know, be
able to build yourself up now after it, they're upset
again because they can't. They don't have the ability to
respond to that.

Speaker 2 (01:05:40):
Sorry, go ahead, Like this idea that, like emotion is
feminine is definitely a way to number one, divide up
these gender stereotypes and be oppressive to both men and
women kind of like you're saying, but emotion is human,
Like the denying emotion to a group of people is

(01:06:03):
in a way to dehumanize them it's the way to
say that you you don't get to be authentic in
this moment. And we're talking moments of grief, we're talking
moments of like even even happy emotions, like being able
to be excited, to be able to be in love.
There's such a range of emotion and to experience them

(01:06:25):
is part of the experience of being human and being alive.
Like I get that the aim is to control. And
if you can control those thoughts and you can control
that those expressions of feelings, then you can, you know,
gain more views on the internet, you can gain more
positions of authority, you can gain whatever power control over

(01:06:47):
other people. And for example, we were talking about like
the IBLP and stuff earlier, Like you watch those families
and how they seem so happy from the outside, but
the way they get that control of their children is
by beating them in the background. Like you don't get
just like quiet, meek, mild people who are authentically living

(01:07:11):
most of the time. Like, sure, there are exceptions, there
are people who just have maybe a lower range of
expressed emotion, but that's not really what we're talking about.
We're talking about people who, like we're put in line
some way or another, and that's the majority of people.
Most people have this wide range of emotions and we
should be allowed to access that.

Speaker 1 (01:07:31):
Yeah, I think there's also a difference between having a
genuine emotion and performing an emotion. I think men are
often told in boys like I think we talk about men,
but really I think about like the three year old
who just perst in earlier. You know, they start teaching
this very early. To perform strength, to perform not caring. Like.
You can have an emotion, but it's got to be
anger and you've got to make it seem like everyone

(01:07:53):
else is wrong and you're righteous about it. So it's
not just an emotion. It's not just something you don't like, right,
You can't just have an emotion about that this idea. Yeah,
so you're performing strength, you're I think about the IBOP.
I think about the duggers. The women there are performing femininity,
they're performing being pleasant. Those voices are even a performance.
You know, when you're talking meekly and calmly and you

(01:08:15):
do the big eye thing a lot, that's that's really
a performance too, and we all know how to do it.
But it's not being true, it's not being human. And again,
that's the expectation. Just don't be human and you'll be
You'll be set. I guess you'll be able to be
in a position of leadership or fulfill whatever it is
that you're our gendered idea expects of you. I feel like,

(01:08:36):
should I do that that lady performance more? Maybe I
should say like horrible atheist things while pretending to be
an ip ibop woman.

Speaker 3 (01:08:43):
Anyway, interesting, interesting concept.

Speaker 2 (01:08:48):
It's like you start using that voice and I start
wearing a crop top to the show, and then that's yes.

Speaker 1 (01:08:52):
I think that at that point we might get a
lot of viewers just in a very different vein than
like we traditionally have. But hey, why not?

Speaker 2 (01:09:01):
Yeah, we do have another super chat from space Barbarian
ten dollars saying I've asked people are humans natural? Which
implies everything we do and make is also natural. That's
you know, a very interesting point as well. Yeah, like
probably with how we define natural, you could, in that
way effectively redefine the watchmaker argument into that watches are

(01:09:27):
natural because they're made through a natural process of humans
using their hands to do things.

Speaker 1 (01:09:33):
Like, yeah, that's true. Well I think it also I
immediately go to, like how much medical intervention. Do we
allow someone to have before we decide it's unnatural? Because
oftentimes the idea of something being natural or unnatural, like
legislation starts to decide it should come in and we
should be able to tell people to only do this much,
to only be this unnatural in our view. And so yeah,

(01:09:58):
like yeah, our is botox something that would still make
me natural? Like the very phrase, girl King, what what
is a natural woman?

Speaker 2 (01:10:07):
But yeah, you know, you know it is also natural,
simultaneously natural and unnatural. This is the worst segue I've
ever made in my life. You know what else is natural?
Following the Patreon list, it was it was sad, but

(01:10:30):
it is so bad, Sophia, would you like to read
the top five patrons?

Speaker 1 (01:10:35):
So this week sure, top five patrons. Number one we
have Oops all Singularity, number two Dingleberry Jackson, number number
three Kleevi Helvetti, number four Ja Carlton, and number five
Moldred D Malcolm ten which I love, oh my goodness,

(01:10:56):
and honorable mention to number six Hell's Bells. So those
are our folks. Yeah, Applaus to him.

Speaker 2 (01:11:02):
Yeah, thank you so much to all the patrons. And again,
if you want to have your name read on the air,
then consider supporting us at tiny dot, cc slash, Patreon.

Speaker 5 (01:11:13):
Th h.

Speaker 2 (01:11:15):
I also want to bring up our lovely backup host
Kelly for helping us out today. Thank you so much
for being here and for doing the talking. Then to
me segment, do you have any any comments on you know,
our our plethora of discussion topics for today?

Speaker 4 (01:11:33):
Actually, you know, I did about natural If a birch
nest is natural, then a watch would be natural in
my view, So.

Speaker 3 (01:11:42):
Right, does that makes sense for really a good argument?

Speaker 1 (01:11:45):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (01:11:46):
So okay, since I won that one, we'll.

Speaker 3 (01:11:48):
Move you won the watchmaker argument.

Speaker 4 (01:11:57):
We were talking about fear and and I think it seems
like it's a common symptom of toxic masculinity to believe
that fear equals respect. And I think that's something that
we really need to change in our society. And I
hope that, for hope that someday, hopefully sooner than later,

(01:12:17):
that we can change that. And I think that us
talking about it and is maybe getting everybody a little
bit closer to that goal. As long as we can
keep that conversation going not just between us, but between
the people that are listening to us, so good, good
idea for bringing it up. And there does seem to
be some people in our chat on the side that
just don't want to call in.

Speaker 1 (01:12:39):
Now.

Speaker 4 (01:12:39):
I talk to these kinds of people all week long,
and I begged them to call, and I can get
like one in one hundred, and the excuses they give
are just entirely pathetic, honestly to give you to tell
you the truth, honestly pathetic. And I think when it
comes down to it's one of two things. Either they
really honestly are too cowardly to go up against such

(01:13:01):
awesome brains as we have right here, Sophia and doctor Ben.
You know I would be I would have a hard
time going up against either one of you, and or
too they really aren't confident enough in their argument to
defend it when it comes right down to it. It's
easy to do it in two hundred and forty spaces
on the Internet when nobody knows who you are, but

(01:13:22):
they actually have your voice on the internet and become
a person with a name is a lot harder. And
if you don't really believe what you're saying, I wouldn't
stick up for it either. So maybe that's why we're
not getting these people to call in because they don't
really believe in what they're saying.

Speaker 3 (01:13:37):
Yeah, I like you.

Speaker 2 (01:13:39):
I like to see some pastors call the people who
are preaching this on the pulpit, like if you're going
to preach to your congregation, like I would assume that
you know your position well enough to defend it against
some like lay atheists, Like I'm not any kind of
religious leader. I don't think you two are. Like I've
never been one. I've never claimed to be one, Like
I'm not in Apollo. Just I'm not a biblical scholar.

(01:14:01):
I'm not any of these like high tier things Like
I would hope that if you are another layperson that
has some ideas, like hopefully you can bring it to
the table and talk to them, talk to us about them.
I mean I don't have I'm not in a position
of authority for all religions care.

Speaker 1 (01:14:20):
So Yeah, I think about how I went to a
Christian university, and I had a friend who almost went
to an even more conservative Christian university. And it's pretty
common to have regulations where you can only use resources
that are physically a part of their actual library at
universities like this, so everything you have, every bit of information,
has to be pre approved. So I imagine someone calling

(01:14:41):
a show like this, and I can see a lot
of fear just because they don't they don't even know
what we would be referencing, because their own understanding is
so shallow. They've only been allowed certain resources so they
could remain, you know, a good little sheep.

Speaker 3 (01:14:56):
Yeah, it's tough for them.

Speaker 4 (01:15:00):
Yeah, I just wish more people would be more willing
to stick up for their beliefs. And I know it's
not easy all the time. It's not easy for everyone,
but I think to actually do it the first time,
but I think once you make that first step, you
find out how easy it is. And it's amazing. Like
when I made that first step, all the people that
came up to me after I stood up and said

(01:15:22):
something was vocal in public. How many people come up
to me afterwards and said, you know what, I agree
with you, And they were just not willing to stand
up either, because we're all a little self conscious we
might not fit in. But you know what, if you
really believe in something, and if you have a good argument,
it doesn't matter how you say it or what you
look like. You're still your argument is still the same.

Speaker 1 (01:15:41):
So yeah, and you might not say it perfectly like
I think. When I was religious, I argued on behalf
of religion a lot, partially because I strongly believed if
you're not faithful in making these arguments, then you're not
faithful in anything. Like what's the point of believing something
if you don't stick up for it. But I guess
I was more hardcore Christian than they are.

Speaker 4 (01:16:01):
So yeah, just start small, stand up, just in small places.
Start small. I always say, each tiny candle light's a
dark corner of the world, So need a tiny candle,
be the.

Speaker 3 (01:16:13):
Tiny candle, and with that we do have our.

Speaker 2 (01:16:17):
Which okay, real quick, I know, I there's a common
inside chat that I just have to reference the fact
that you know what's unnatural doctor Benn's segues.

Speaker 3 (01:16:27):
That was really hilarious. Person, that was really good. That's
very good.

Speaker 2 (01:16:35):
So with my unnatural segues, the prompt for this week
is complete the sentence not even a demon would possess blank.
Reply in the comments and tune in at the beginning
of next week's show to hear who got the top
three answers, and maybe one of them could be yours.
And also there's there's no rules on how many answers
you can submit. You don't have to just submit one answer.

(01:16:58):
We know the two the top two answers for this
week we're from the same person. So type in as
many as you want in that comment section and we
might use multiple of your answers. Maybe you'll take up
all three at the best answer spots. I don't know.

Speaker 4 (01:17:15):
Gatos did that once on Truth Wanted. He got all
three of the top spots, So if you're that good
as he was that week.

Speaker 2 (01:17:22):
Yeah, So no no rules about how many you can submit,
So submit as many as you want and we'll we'll
read the top three next week. Any other comments from
from y'all, and we got the loverings already out there.

Speaker 4 (01:17:38):
When it came out, I kind of felt like the
music from the Oscars are they.

Speaker 1 (01:17:42):
Playing wrap it Up?

Speaker 3 (01:17:44):
Team, wrap it up? Well?

Speaker 2 (01:17:48):
Thank you both for being here today and engaging in
some important discussions. I know a lot of people are
deconstructing these things. They seem silly, but at the end
of the day, there are people who are affected this
and if you're one of those people that is still
struggling with this history, of abuse, of oppression, of believing

(01:18:09):
that you should be ashamed for all of the things
that have happened to you where your community. This is
the place for you to come and get some encouragement,
help deconstruct some of that stuff. We are here as
a resource for you all, as a sounding board for
you all. We love being here every week and we
appreciate all the support that we had at the library

(01:18:31):
at the back cruise. I'm here in the side chat
this week. And if you do believe we don't hate you,
We're just not convinced.

Speaker 5 (01:18:57):
We want the truth.

Speaker 3 (01:18:58):
So watch Truth Wanted Live Friday's seven PMS call five
one two nine nine one nine two four two or
visit tiny dot cc forward slash call t W