Talk Heathen 09.35 with Christy Powell and Sydney Davis Jr. Jr.

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Growing up, my dad used to say, never buy any
green bananas because you never know when Jesus is coming back. Now,
some two thousand years after its expiration date, with violence
in the news, multiple wars across the globe, and famine
in the Middle East, many of us are looking around
for a second coming and the end time vibes are
pretty high. So is this the end of the world

(00:20):
as we know it? How are you feeling? Give us
a call because the show is coming right now. Okay, well,
welcome everyone. Today is August thirty, first, twenty twenty five.
I am your host, Christy Powell, and joining me again
is my friend Sidney Davis Junior Junior. Sey. How you feeling.

Speaker 2 (00:43):
I'm feeling good. How are you feeling? Christy?

Speaker 1 (00:45):
Feeling fine? You know, it is a scary world out
there for plenty of reasons. I'm sure we'll have a
lot to talk about. But uh, I don't know. I
kind of believe it always has been.

Speaker 2 (00:55):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, not gonna lie. It's always been a
little bit scary. It's a scary.

Speaker 1 (01:00):
Maybe I'm just a little bit older enough to pay
attention and be terrified of it now.

Speaker 2 (01:04):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, some of our earliest
memories are seeing unprecedented events on television. So I feel like,
especially most generations have the hallmarks of it's all just
been a little scary. We've just been coping all this time.

Speaker 1 (01:17):
May we find or may we find precedented times ahead.

Speaker 2 (01:21):
I'm telling you, I would love to just exist in
precedented times.

Speaker 1 (01:25):
I would I would think if we could make fun
of a president for like falling downstairs or you know,
adorable little foibles like that.

Speaker 2 (01:32):
Yes, yes, absolutely absolutely couldn't agree more cool.

Speaker 1 (01:36):
Well, So we're going to be talking about the end
of days and other terrifying things today. Of course, on
Talk Heathen, we are open to all of your questions
about religion, secular humanism, atheistic morality, cosmology, philosophy, science, history, life,
the universe and everything. Sidney, is there anybody in particular
that you're hoping to talk to you today?

Speaker 2 (01:57):
I'm hoping to talk to anybody who call.

Speaker 1 (02:00):
I would love to just be all right, let's do it. Yeah,
grab bag it? Yep, absolutely cool Well. Talk Heathen is
a production of the Atheist Community of Austin, a five
oh one c three nonprofit organization dedicated to the promotion
of atheism critical thinking, secular humanism, and the separation of
religion and government. We're are a live call in show
and we have open lines, so get your calls in

(02:22):
at five one two nine, two four to two or
from your computer at tiny dot cc slash call t H.
And while you're getting those calls all loaded up, let's
bring in our friend Aaron to do the talk Heathan
to Me Question of the Week segment.

Speaker 3 (02:38):
Yolo, it's time for everybody's favorite part of Talk Heathen,
the talk Hethan in Me segment. I don't know why
we do this at the front. We're going to lose
so many people after they hear this amazing segment.

Speaker 1 (02:49):
Hey, get it in while you can eat dessert first.
That's right. We needy to say that we will still
be here at the end of the show.

Speaker 4 (02:57):
That's true.

Speaker 1 (02:57):
That's true.

Speaker 3 (02:58):
If we're lucky, we won't be.

Speaker 4 (03:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (03:03):
Okay, okay, he's tell me a little bit more about that.

Speaker 3 (03:06):
Yeah, I'll take off my cynical hat now, all right.
Last week we asked the question complete the sentence, not
even a demon would possess blank. And here are top
three answers chosen by we don't know somebody chose them.
Number three zach Reid's not even demons would possess all
the skeleton in the Catholic Church's closet and true, tough,

(03:35):
but fair and true, they did it to themselves. I'm
sorry you did it to yourself.

Speaker 1 (03:40):
Number happen.

Speaker 3 (03:44):
Number two from cad More, Not even a demon would
possess Elon Musk because even access to the largest amount
of wealth in the world makes it difficult to justify
being that cringey. I agree, another another tough one. You know,
do you know Delon Musk hosted SNL one time?

Speaker 1 (04:03):
I caught that. Yep, I remember why I was there.
I was there.

Speaker 3 (04:06):
I watched that episode, and now I want to know
how in the world did that happen? This is before
he went all uh. Some people would say, but I
just want to know how did he get on that show?
I just I don't understand who called it?

Speaker 1 (04:19):
I mean what, like it's hard, like I don't know
people alive who still watches every week. You can look
back on the list and it's not it's not great.

Speaker 3 (04:30):
It's not a great list. Okay, I'll have to I'll
have to go look at the list of hosts, all right,
and our number one answer from x million. Not even
the demon would possess Mary's virgin will down the tough
truth this week.

Speaker 2 (04:47):
You know, I pictured I just pictured the SNL voice
being like featuring.

Speaker 3 (04:53):
Nicholas exactly exactly. All right, Well, that takes us to
the and of this week's question or last week's question.

Speaker 2 (05:02):
Now we have this week.

Speaker 3 (05:03):
This week's question is complete this sentence, the rarely talked
about fifth horsemen of the apocalypse is blank. Christy, do
you have who is your fifth horseman of the apocalypse?
And I believe Elon Musk has taken a.

Speaker 1 (05:16):
Yeah, right, I don't know, Bonnie Blue. We're living in
some interesting times asking some interesting questions. Let's just say that,
all right, And City Davis.

Speaker 3 (05:27):
Junior, Junior, who is your fifth horseman of the apocalypse?

Speaker 2 (05:31):
I'm going to say, Judge, Judy, But I was not
expecting a Bonnie Blue reference this morning, So I'm rethinking
my whole life right now.

Speaker 1 (05:37):
I have always up for conversations about sexual ethics. Let's uh,
I don't want to say dive in deep. I don't
want to get that too misconstrued, but uh, yeah, I
don't know, there's some conversation there We're always.

Speaker 2 (05:48):
Up for talking about sexual ethics. So that's why we
bring up Judge Judy. That's what we're going to talk
about Judge Judy today.

Speaker 3 (05:55):
All right, Well, that's our question for the week. The
really talking about fifth Horsemen of the Apocalypse is leaving
the comments on his video, not in the live chat,
in the comments, and you'll be entered to win nothing
for next week.

Speaker 1 (06:06):
We'll just like your answer.

Speaker 2 (06:07):
So points still matter.

Speaker 3 (06:08):
Accolades, that's right, accolades, our deep and unending respect back
to you.

Speaker 1 (06:14):
All right, Well, thank you, Aaron, and thank you to
everybody who helps make the show possible, who runs everything
behind the scenes, who talks to our callers, who helps
with social media. I'd love to get that crew cam
up and running so we can give just a moment
of that screen time and some of those non existent
points and accolades to some of these wonderful folks, and

(06:37):
maybe we'll come back to it. All right, we do
want to say thank you to everybody who works so
hard to make this show happen and to make it run.
So with that, Sidney, I guess I'm curious. Oh here,
good of these are good, hard working folks. Thank you
so much, everybody, and thank you for everything that you're
doing to get that up on the screen.

Speaker 2 (06:58):
Can I just highlight that mustache real quick? That at
the handlebar mustache is actually the sponsor of today's show,
So give it up for our sponsor today's mustache.

Speaker 1 (07:07):
They's mustache beautiful, Well, Sidney. So the end of the world, yes,
is it here? I mean I know that for lots
of folks like Jehovah's witnesses, hardcore evangelicals, other doomsday sorts,
this can be a pretty scary moment. How are you
managing your news diet? How are you feeling when you

(07:30):
look at the world around us right now?

Speaker 2 (07:32):
That's actually a really good question. I like how you
phrased that news diet. I wish I could go back
and tell twenties me this for those who are watching.
I know you're shocked. I'm in my thirties.

Speaker 1 (07:42):
I know your guest you are a vampire.

Speaker 2 (07:45):
Yes, take a moment to recover from that information. I
think something that's really important. And maybe this is easier
now that I consider myself an atheist and I don't
believe in an afterlife. If you are worried the end
of times, are coming if you're genuinely worried that the
end of times are coming. One, it's coming for everybody too,

(08:06):
so there's no like fomo, right, that's what you think.
But two, if you do think it's coming, it's coming
no matter what. You can either spend this time that
you think is prior to it coming enjoying what you
love to do in life, you know, spending time with
your family, with your pets, things like that, or wigging
out about it. I personally don't necessarily think we're living

(08:28):
the end of times. I think every generation has always
thought they were living the end of times. You know,
they've always been standing out on the road with those
posters or whatever. You know. Even back in the seventeen
and eighteen hundreds, evangelicals were convinced that the end was coming.

Speaker 1 (08:42):
I don't think you have to be true for those folks,
but for us maybe so.

Speaker 2 (08:49):
I don't think it's coming. I'm not worried about it coming,
but if it is coming, I still plan on living
every day as though there's only so much I can
do about those sorts of things, and I'm not going
I refuse to live in fear, and I know that's
easy to say, but I luckily am in a position
mentally and emotionally where I can say I refuse to

(09:11):
live in fear. If I don't wake up tomorrow, that's okay.
I know that I did what I wanted to do
in this life for you know, to a certain extent.

Speaker 1 (09:18):
So what about you, No, I think that's fair to say.
I mean, honestly, if I'm being real, so much of
the music I listened to in my teen years was
about just trying to be cool, trying to listen to
the music that I was supposed to listen to, regardless
of what I liked and enjoyed. And in my twenties,
so much of listening to the news was about this

(09:39):
like moral responsibility to stay informed. And I think that
that's maybe closer to where I wanted to be, but
it's still missing the mark. Because if what I see
in the news doesn't impact the way that I vote,
if it doesn't impact the way that I volunteer, if
it doesn't change the way that I spend money, if
it doesn't have an impact on sort of me living

(10:01):
a moral life or contributing to society, then yeah, it
really can just be doom and anxiety porn, and yes,
I think we have a right to not live in
that space all day, every day. If you're right, ask
yourself who benefits from it? Like watch the news. I'm
not saying that atheists should not be informed. I'm not

(10:22):
saying that we shouldn't be participating in political conversations, but
what are you getting out of it? And to what
ends right?

Speaker 5 (10:29):
Right?

Speaker 2 (10:29):
And something else to remember is fearselves. So of course
what all channels are pushing is fear, whether it's like
a news channel that you agree with, whether it's one
you don't agree with. The fear aspect is what sells
headlines and papers and clicks and views, So try to
keep that in mind as well. A lot of what
you're seeing that might be freaking you out, whether or

(10:51):
not it's true is one thing, but the way that
it's being pushed. I think we've all seen those clips
where two competing news channels will show the exist same
clip and both of them insists that their guy destroyed
the other one, even though they're using the exact same clip.
So even though while what you're watching is it really
did happen, the way that it's being sold to you

(11:12):
is just that it's being sold to you so that
you continue to watch, you continue to click, you continue
to stream. And so I think that also helps a
lot when it comes to whether or not to fear
that end of times are coming? Are you being sold
this idea?

Speaker 1 (11:24):
Yeah? And you know what, I think that just makes
basic evolutionary sense, right, Like a chimpanzee swinging through the
jungle is going to be benefited from remembering which trees
have the really good juicy fruit on them. To an extent,
what the one tree that was full of dangerous snakes
or had alligator or crocodiles underneath it. That's the tree

(11:47):
that you have to remember in order to survive, in
order to send off your jeans. So even if nine
out of ten trees are beautiful and fruitful and wonderful,
we're going to hold on to that scary one. Yes,
And when the scary thing is happening a continent away,
it may feel like an existential threat to our reality

(12:09):
when it really is just anxiety.

Speaker 2 (12:11):
Yep, absolutely percent.

Speaker 1 (12:13):
Well, so you already pointed out that, you know, doomsday
cults and this sort of like living on borrowed time
mentality has existed pretty much forever. But I mean, I'm
a member of a generation that was raised on left behind,
you know, and we can live stream atrocities from the
world over. Do you think that we are feeling it worse?

(12:34):
Or is the word act? Is the world actually like,
you know, worse.

Speaker 2 (12:39):
So I think it's a combination of things. I think
it's the exposure. You know, people when you talk about
things like true crime podcast, people always say, wow, there
there just seem like there's so many more crimes being
committed nowadays, when in reality there were crime has.

Speaker 1 (12:55):
Been consistently going down for generations.

Speaker 2 (12:58):
Yes, but there wasn't you there weren't podcasts, there weren't shorts,
there wasn't Instagram, there wasn't TikTok. We couldn't communicate with
each other in the same way. So we you know,
somebody in Oregon couldn't necessarily tell someone in California about
what's going on. They couldn't just live stream it like
it's happening now. So there's there's the communication aspect, and
then there's just these statistically more human beings alive. I

(13:22):
don't think it's getting worse. I think it might be different,
and I think it might be statistically just happening at
the same rate that it would have happened, but because
there's more people, you just see it more frequently. You know,
I've lived.

Speaker 1 (13:37):
In Chicaga on top of each other, right, I've.

Speaker 2 (13:39):
Lived in many major cities, you know, Chicago, I've lived
in Nashville. I now live in Phoenix, Arizona, And people
call these cities dangerous a lot. And cities are dangerous because,
in my opinion of statistics, not because of the actual
there's just a mountain of danger happening in all of
these spots. I think if you were to go to

(14:00):
a microscopic town in the middle of nowhere, the statistics
might be similar, but you're not going to see anything
because there aren't that If there's not a thousand people,
you don't have to worry about the one in a thousand, right.

Speaker 1 (14:10):
This fractional murder doesn't, you know, mean the same thing, right, right?

Speaker 2 (14:15):
So yeah, I think I think. I don't think it's
necessarily that the world is worse than it's ever been before.
I think communication is just easier. Information is easier. False
information is also easier to spread, and things like conspiracy
theories are easier to spread as well. But I don't
necessarily think it's any worse than it was.

Speaker 1 (14:35):
Yeah, no, fair to say, even if you know it
is reasonable to feel a little frightened when we turn
on the news right now, Understanding what that means and
trying to keep it in some sort of context is invaluable.

Speaker 2 (14:48):
Right, right, And technology matters too, like, of course there
were no drone issues in the seventies.

Speaker 4 (14:53):
Right.

Speaker 2 (14:54):
Of course, there were no like hackers in the seventies. Oh,
because there wasn't anything to hack. So there's that to
consider as well.

Speaker 1 (15:01):
Yeah, as technology speeds up, as there are more people
inventing new things, as we have more access to knowledge
and information, the world seems new at a faster rate,
and we as a species are kind of afraid of
new things.

Speaker 2 (15:15):
Yes, yes, yeah, is there anything new that you're afraid of?

Speaker 4 (15:18):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (15:19):
I mean TikTok dances, really everything, If we're being honest,
I'm that type of middle aged right about now.

Speaker 2 (15:26):
Yes, yes, AI freaks me out, not gonna lie A
freaks me out a lot.

Speaker 4 (15:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (15:30):
No, it's an existential threat to humanity. And the memes
are excellent, so I don't know, you're very conflicting.

Speaker 2 (15:37):
Yeah, man, it does a great job editing my videos,
but please stop putting people's faces on videos that they
weren't in.

Speaker 1 (15:44):
Please stop doing that.

Speaker 4 (15:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (15:47):
Well, so plenty of folks who have deconstructed religion still
deal with a fear of hell or dread of the
end times. And I really want people to understand that, yes,
that sucks, that pain is real, it matters, but it's
also not uncommon. Was rapture, anxiety or end times prophecy
a big challenge for you? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (16:08):
Yeah, absolutely, And if I'm being totally honest, it still
works its way into my brain. Like I am one
hundred percent sure of my atheist stance. But you know
we were talking before the show. Every now and then,
just when you know, when it's particularly silent or it's
the right moment, my brain will go. But like but
like what if what?

Speaker 1 (16:27):
Yeah, you know what what? Or if a plane right,
it could be right right.

Speaker 2 (16:32):
If there's turbulence on a plane, Like I ask forgiveness,
I sure do, now I rebuke at the minute that
plane lands, But like, yeah, I think especially you know,
I was a child growing up in the church, and
so especially when your most formative years are spent being
told that this is going to happen, and I don't
think it's going to happen, Like as an adult, I

(16:53):
don't believe it. I don't think it's going to happen.
There's still that little part of your lizard brain that
was forming you know, when you were a child, that says,
but what if? And so I don't think that people
should feel alone at all in having those thoughts or feelings,
even if they think a little bit more than just
what if? Is that your experience as well? Or what
are your thoughts?

Speaker 1 (17:12):
Yeah, I mean I definitely relate to that, like, well,
you know, statistically it's unlikely, but everything that happens happens, right,
it happens to somebody, even if you have a one
and a gore billion chance of getting this disease and
telling that to the person who gets that disease. Yes,
so you know, I do recognize that component to it.

(17:34):
But you know, for me, like growing up in the
church and reading Left Behind, we weren't allowed to have
Harry Potter. So for us Christians like Left Behind was
our big tenth pole franchise.

Speaker 6 (17:46):
Which is crazy, which is absolutely crazy, it is, Yeah,
but I mean that stuff was absolutely everywhere.

Speaker 1 (17:55):
It was coming from the pulpit every single week. It
was in the air that we breathe. I mean, that
joke I made at the beginning of the show was
a real thing that my dad would say, do not
buy any green bananas. And I think that that thinking
goes into his retirement account and goes into any type
of planning for the future. And that is a very

(18:17):
scary reality to be sort of sitting in, and it
is going to stick with us a little bit.

Speaker 2 (18:22):
Yes, yeah, for me.

Speaker 4 (18:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (18:25):
A big part of letting that go for me personally
was I spent all this time in the church talking
about all of these ideas, and honestly, nobody ever really
pointed out or tried to explain to me where it
says directly in the Gospels that Jesus was supposed to
be here by now. You know, we talked about him
coming like a thief in the night someday, but it

(18:45):
was never pointed out that it was supposed to be
while many of those folks are still alive. And I
know that people can quibble over how we are meant
to interpret scripture, and I'm not trying to dive too
deep into that game, but it is kind of low
key amazing to me that Christianity is still a valid
worldview and construct with that glaring issue right there in

(19:09):
the fine print of their own sacred texts.

Speaker 2 (19:12):
Yeah, yeah, I wonder if well, I don't wonder. I know,
part of it is because the alternative is so horrible.
A lot of people say, I'd rather believe it and
be wrong than not believe it and be sure.

Speaker 1 (19:25):
The Pascal's Wager kind of philosophy of it all.

Speaker 2 (19:28):
Yeahh And I was one of those, you know.

Speaker 1 (19:30):
Yeah, yeah, Well, I mean, is there anything, like we've
talked about media diets and how to interpret things. Do
you have any advice on how to move past that?
Was there anything that works for you to let go
of hell or to let go even when there's airplane
turbulence or whatever else?

Speaker 2 (19:48):
Yeah, part of it, And I don't maybe this is
like a nihilist per sective. I don't think it is,
But part of it is that whole Well, regardless of
what's happening, there's nothing I can do about it, so
I might as well not spend a lot of time
just panicking in.

Speaker 1 (20:03):
Fear my efforts are useful.

Speaker 2 (20:06):
Yeah, yeah, But there's also you know, historically the rapture
really didn't show up in religious conversation until very very recently.
It is an incredibly recent idea, and so just from
an analytical perspective, I think to myself, if nobody else
believed it and nobody else experienced it, then the chances

(20:29):
that I don't have to believe it and also won't
experience it is pretty high. But if say, for example,
the Christian religion is true, I grew up in the
Baptist Church, and they tell you that once you're saved,
you cannot be unsaved, and as long as you ask forgiveness,
you'll make it into the Kingdom of Heaven. So I
got saved when I was ten, as long as I

(20:49):
ask for forgiveness at the end there, you know, or
at the gates technically I should make it in if
they're not locked.

Speaker 1 (20:54):
Got it locked in? Yeah, I'm in that book. No,
we stop going to Baptism churches over the once saved,
always saved philosophy. So we I guess that particular branch
of the doomsday cult wasn't doomsday enough for us. I
wait to look for something harsher.

Speaker 2 (21:13):
We don't need a loophole, we need something worse.

Speaker 1 (21:16):
Yeah, something worse lay the second Well, so I know
that this is a very big question for me to
lay on you, but I really feel like people overlook
how much the impact of that, like living on borrowed
time philosophy, really has on our politics and on our culture.
Guess what do you see in the modern political landscape

(21:38):
when we talk about, you know, the world ending in
this generation or.

Speaker 2 (21:41):
Soon, I see it being weaponized. To be honest with you,
you know, it goes kind of back to that whole
fear cells. I think, not pointing any fingers, but I
think there's a lot of people that recognize people are
so afraid of things like the end of times and
the rapture and God's second coming or Jesus' second coming,

(22:03):
that they will again. They would rather do what they're
told supports that narrative and keeps them safe and be
wrong than not do those things and find out they're wrong.
So I do think there are a lot of people
who claim to be of that belief system and claim
to be Christians, and what they're actually doing is capitalizing

(22:23):
on the fact that the majority of this country is
Christian and they run on fear and they will do
pretty much anything as long as they're convinced that the
Bible or God or Jesus wants them to do it.
So unfortunately, once you've stepped out of that lens where
you believe any of that stuff, in my opinion, it's
been a lot easier to see just how often it
is weaponized by people who recognize they can do a

(22:44):
lot with that message and with that fear.

Speaker 1 (22:47):
Yeah, I mean, all humans have to grapple with the
existential reality of the fact that they themselves will die,
and I think it makes sense that religion can very
much hijack that fear and try and feat us stories
of eternal life, of protection from the end times, and
all of these kinds of things. And it is a

(23:07):
very powerful motivator to keep your head down and not
think about it too much.

Speaker 2 (23:11):
Yeah, yeah, what do you do? What do you think
about when you think about the end of life? What
feelings do you have? What thoughts or ideas do you
have about like the end of your life or the
notion of dying?

Speaker 4 (23:23):
Man?

Speaker 1 (23:23):
I you know, sometimes I do feel it motivating me
to live a what life well led you know, to
make sure I'm being intentional with the time that I
have and I can find it to be very life
affirming in that way. But more often than not, I
come to the conclusion that where death is, I cannot be.
You know, I am going to just live until I stop,

(23:46):
and I'm never going to like go through the experience.
There might be a moment or perhaps a long delayed
experience of quote dying, but the eye that I think
of is I will never be dead, for whatever that means,
and that brings me a lot of comfort to just
recognize that in some ways that's kind of somebody else's problem.

Speaker 7 (24:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (24:07):
Yeah, that somebody else is going to put that bill.

Speaker 1 (24:09):
That's what o're there for it. Yeah, yeah, do whatever
you want at my funeral. Like, I'm not going to care.

Speaker 2 (24:15):
That's although I will say I request that if you
should pass before me, haunt me if you can, just
so I.

Speaker 8 (24:21):
Know, if you can, I'll haunt you. I'll it's a
pack perfect Yeah. Well, before we jump onto the phones,
I guess I also just want to highlight a little
bit about the way that we live in a culture
that sort of responds to global warming or responds to
war in the Middle East as a.

Speaker 1 (24:41):
Well, maybe that's a good thing. Maybe we want to
usher in the end of the world, and I have
to say that that maybe scares me more than the
rest of this.

Speaker 2 (24:49):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And do you think that there are
people that truly do want that? Do you think there
are people that think the greatest thing that could happen
is like the end of times?

Speaker 1 (24:58):
Or oh man, I know them. I used to be them.
I was raised among them. I have no doubt. I
think that there's a lot to be said about, you know,
US foreign policy towards Israel, for example. There are a
lot of ideas around how this is a quote good thing,
and ushering in the end times is just speeding up

(25:20):
when we get to meet Jesus in the air.

Speaker 2 (25:22):
Man, that is it's so odd to talk about his reality.
I just gotta like, I got to break my calm
for a second. Sometimes I hear these things and I'm like,
what is going.

Speaker 1 (25:31):
On the news anymore?

Speaker 2 (25:36):
I think I watched the news now more of just
like a like a what what's going to happen today?
What are they going to say? What are people? What
am I going to find out?

Speaker 1 (25:43):
People believe?

Speaker 4 (25:44):
Sure?

Speaker 1 (25:44):
Yeah it's wild. Yeah, well, on that delightful note, I
really want to find out how the audience is feeling.
I want to learn more about your experiences of you know,
Jerry Bink Jenkins and Tim Lahay left behind, your experiences
of living in a doomsday cult, your experiences of just
turning on the news right now in this wild time

(26:06):
that we're living in, and give us a call. But
first let's talk to Benji in Alabama. Benji, what is
on your mind today?

Speaker 4 (26:14):
Hey? Oh, I was gonna call them about why God
doesn't reveal himself. But also, just as a side note,
I've had society as a whole nowadays at least is
gonna probably end up destroying themselves just based on the
past thirty years, twelfth later, or even since the sixties.

(26:38):
I mean to be technical, I'd say since the sixties
there's been division and war and they have been saying, Yo,
it's more than there has been in the past hundred
years or so.

Speaker 1 (26:49):
Yeah, But you say the sixties is maybe the moment
we started to become divided. I have to draw your
attention back a few decades before that, when we might
say the world was the most divided, when we had
a very large war all around the world too.

Speaker 4 (27:04):
Yeah, I was gonna say World War one World War two,
But I figured sins would be a good smart spot
to start, because I'm.

Speaker 1 (27:13):
Draw a line somewhere for it to all begin the
end of the beginning, the beginning of the end.

Speaker 2 (27:20):
Well, well, what about the global war style books?

Speaker 4 (27:23):
That that's out of the Bible. But you know God
has did this several times already, right at least in
the old story.

Speaker 1 (27:31):
You know, I'm kind of I lost you a little
bit for a moment there, Benji. I'd love for you
to start fresh and talk to us about God revealing
himself and and what insights you might have to offer
to explain that to us.

Speaker 7 (27:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (27:43):
So in the Bible, Uh, well time, y'all don't want
to care much for it.

Speaker 1 (27:48):
But sure, But when we say that, why doesn't God
reveal himself? We are talking about ostensibly the Christian God?

Speaker 4 (27:55):
No, I get that. Yeah. So God has made the
world several times and destroyed it, did it again, and
destroyed it, did it again. And I'm a gnostic and
the last time I destroyed it was a flood. And
now people saying He's going to destroy it with fire
or whatever.

Speaker 1 (28:12):
Yeah, can you tell me what you mean when you
describe yourself as agnostic while talking about the accuracy of
the Bible and of theoretically the Christian God.

Speaker 4 (28:21):
Yeah, so gnostic. I'm a gnostic, not a gnostic the
trait on that. And then also I believe God is
somewhat evil. You can't have good without evil. If you
had all good, you wouldn't recognize what good was because
you would have nothing to compare it to. And then
the whole is.

Speaker 2 (28:44):
So well, I was just saying, I actually agree with
that that if you if you don't have an evil
to scale with good, you don't recognize when you actually
have good. Yeah, that's that's interesting, right.

Speaker 5 (28:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (28:57):
But the the other thing too, I think if God
did choose to reval himself, either people wouldn't believe that
he is actually gone, or it would just create a
situation where he would have to destroy us. Anyway, I
think that we will.

Speaker 1 (29:14):
Who is this God that we're talking about. I'm still
really kind of hung up on that question, Like, I
don't need him to be the Christian God. We can
talk about him in more general terms or think of
it as a philosophical god. But if this God is
partly evil, are they are all powerful? Do they have
the ability to convince people that they exist and they

(29:34):
have the ability to reveal themselves at all.

Speaker 4 (29:36):
So I would explain this lie to this. So I'm
talking about the Christian God, and I am a very
old version of Christianity where God is not literally all powerful.
He did help create the inniverse and stuff like that,
but those limits, and I mean those limits on all
of his abilities, right, For example, he's loged possible, not

(30:01):
infinitely possible. He can't create a lot so heavy, he
can't live a type crap.

Speaker 2 (30:06):
Well, who would be putting limits on God?

Speaker 4 (30:09):
Though?

Speaker 2 (30:09):
If God created everything.

Speaker 1 (30:10):
Well, God helped create everything, which really begs the question.

Speaker 4 (30:14):
Well, a Bible was polytheistic anyway. A lot of people
don't even know that, but back in the day when
Jesus supposedly was alive in Jerusalem, everyone was actually polysyistic.
You had Bail, you had Laheim, and all the other
older gods that came before Jesus or you know, Christianity
or whatever you want to call it. And so I

(30:36):
mean that if people looked at the history of that
and even God himself, if you believe the Bible is
the word of God.

Speaker 1 (30:45):
Do you believe that? Do you believe that the Bible
is accurate? Do you believe that it is mostly accurate?
Is it useful? Is it the word of God? And
if so, what does that even mean?

Speaker 4 (30:55):
So the Bible is not accurate at all? I mean
that would have been if they would have voted down,
you know, whatever was said. But then you have the game.

Speaker 1 (31:04):
It's not perfectly or inerrently correct. But it is good
enough to warrant scholarship, to warrant reading.

Speaker 4 (31:12):
Right right, well, it is, I mean it has good
advice in it, just like anything else would. I mean,
you can find usefulness and just about anything. When they
Bible together, they took a whole lot of books out
of it burned in this heresy, the language barriers and
sayings that happened from Hebrew to Greek, Latin English and

(31:34):
all of the other signs. There's a lot of stuff
that got either mistranslated or took out or sains, you know,
over the several centuries, and even for example, the King
Zames Bible fitting hundreds I believe England seen DRAMs version
even that the Old English as words that don't actually

(31:57):
translate to what the Greek and the Hebrew said, and
so a lot of stollars can tell you know, yeah,
the Bible's good for you know, positivity or something in
some aspects it does have.

Speaker 1 (32:08):
Sure, well, so that if the Bible is good or
decent but far from perfect, why are we going to
the Bible to understand morality except instead of you know,
philosophy or psychology. Why are we going to the Bible
to understand the creation of the universe rather than geology
or or even history.

Speaker 4 (32:28):
Well, I'm going to answer that in two ways. One,
I don't go to the Bible to understand reality because
the Bible, to me, as a gleansed the book that
was written by humans several hundred years ago.

Speaker 1 (32:43):
Yeah, I'm on board with that, but I have to ask, respectfully,
why are we talking about the Bible then? Because I
thought you were trying to explain to us why God
doesn't reveal himself, Right, That's.

Speaker 4 (32:51):
What I was trying to get back on to. Yeah,
we kind of got sidetrapped there. The reason why God
doesn't reveal himself is it would create a scenario where
everyone could rebel against him, which it's probably time he
doesn't want. And then he would have to destroy the
earth and start all over, which and that and retro aspect.
I think given free Wiel to people was a mistake anyway,

(33:12):
because on one hand, if he had a world where
everyone was was re reveent towards someone knew who he
was and was you know, just subservient the whole time,
and this would be a world without sin, because you know,
sin was the separation in some aspect of God to
some people. So if we didn't have sin and everyone

(33:34):
was naked and everyone knew who God was, he probably
just didn't want that wiped it out because that that's
the flood Basically, on all the other traps that happened, angels,
you know, nightment, humans or whatever, didn't.

Speaker 2 (33:45):
The flood actually happen. Wasn't the supposed reason the flood
happened because people were sinful and were bad and they
weren't obeying God. Am I remembering that incorrectly? Isn't that
kind of what that was about? Where everybody was sinners
except Noah and his family.

Speaker 4 (33:59):
Who it was just the human ways. I mean, there
was angels that came from heaven made it with females.

Speaker 2 (34:04):
That's do you actually believe that?

Speaker 4 (34:07):
Well, it's in the it's in the the old books
that they banned. But yeah, I mean it says that
like an Enoch, for example, of the Watchers.

Speaker 1 (34:15):
Right, so it says that in the Bible or some
versions of the Bible. But I'm still really kind of
circling this question of do we even believe the Bible
at all a little bit? Or how come or why not?

Speaker 4 (34:27):
I think there's some ths to it, but I think
a lot of it hasn't been signs to misinterpreted or mistranslated.

Speaker 2 (34:37):
So what parts of it do you think are true?
Then if you had to highlight some points where you're like,
this part is for sure true and why well, I mean, I.

Speaker 4 (34:44):
Believe in angels and heaven and hell and stuff. But
I would say the book the Way of Elason was
referring to uh moo or whatever the and for in
Greece at the time. And then because that's what a
lot of scholars said, I'd say that Revelation was more

(35:04):
referring to the Greek wars and anything and woman empire.
And then the I would say that Matthew, Mark, Luke,
and John are basically copies of each other, and really
none of the gospels. We don't know who were any
of the gospels because they're all anonymous, and uh, I
would say that the search put the names on there,

(35:27):
and it's just been a matter of tradition, and I'm
hard to point this out to people at my church,
and then they just get pissed off because they want
to believe what they want to believe. But in my opinion,
you know, if someone's not waiting for the truth, you
can't tell them the truth and then believe you anyway.
And then also I've sent to the human waste is
going to destroy themselves eventually because more famine, disease plagued

(35:49):
and everything else, but natal storms that are getting worse
and worse because of dreamhouse gas effect and love be warming,
which I know you'll bought that up earlier. But the
way that the world is now, I'm very old and
I'm just tired of the world trying to destroy themselves.
And you have you know, police and citizens and military
and everything fighting against each other, and it's a bunch

(36:11):
of bull craps. And then on top of that, Christians
want to try to blame all of the bad steff
Phone Lucifer and all of the good stelf one God.
But if God is the one in control, then Ultimately,
the bad that happens in the world will be God's
fault too, which is why I stay anostic, because Nasts
believe that God is partly evil, which made sense if

(36:34):
you believe in the Bible, but for some reason Tristans
nowadays when it's say pick and say, oh, well, God's
not evil, but it literally says in the Bible number one,
it says God created good and evil, which will make
him evil. He also created hell that makes him evil,
and then it also says Lucifer has dominion over all

(36:54):
of the earth.

Speaker 1 (36:55):
With this, one day, I hear you cherry picking from
the Bible and not identify as a Christian but as
a Gnostic while also going to church and reading the
Bible and talking about something that sounds a lot like
the Christian God. And I'm not saying that you're right
or wrong about any of these points, but I am
very much trying to understand what makes you different. How

(37:15):
do you know these things that you know, or why
do you believe these things that you believe?

Speaker 4 (37:20):
Well, what I was just quoting is actually in the Bible.
If those people don't want to pay attention to it.

Speaker 1 (37:25):
Okay, but do we care what's in the Bible. Do
you care what's in the Bible if it's not accurate
in many ways?

Speaker 4 (37:31):
Well, I know that stuff is. I mean I know
some of the stuff is.

Speaker 2 (37:34):
But as how though, like what what when you look
at parts of the Bible? What makes you point at
some and say that's true and others say that's not true?
And I'm sure of this.

Speaker 4 (37:44):
Yeah, historicity, personal experience, as well as the older books
that came before the Bible, like the Epic of gig
Mas and the history of the other gods that came
before the Bible, which for the react of the Bible,
it's probably feist that not monochistic anyway, But the I
mean there's a whole lot of history. I mean, I
mean there's a whole lot of history to jump through

(38:07):
when you actually investigate the Bible and realize, oh, well,
a lot of Jerusalem and Samaria and all these other
places was worshiping other gods, including bail which in fact,
there's a story in the Bible where a group of
people works of bel and then another guy worships Elleheim
or you know, Jehovah, whatever you want to call him,

(38:28):
and they did an experiment to see what caused the
fire to start on those watts, and it was a
chemical weasin from the water.

Speaker 2 (38:39):
So sorry, the fire, I'm sorry the fireware. I think
we I think there was a part there that wasn't explained.

Speaker 4 (38:46):
So there's a there's a story in the Bible where
there's I think two groups of people. One works of bell,
the other one works up Elahem or Jehovah, and they're
trying to they're basically challenging each other. They're like, okay,
it was whoever can start a fire you know on
these on these watts, or start a fire you know
that God's to prove God and uh. And then the

(39:08):
ones that works up Bail didn't wasn't able to. And
then the ones that works up Jehovah lahem. Uh. They
had wants that I believe it was limestone or something
when they put the water on that constant chemical reass
and constant fire. So wouldn't that they wouldn't know that
at that time.

Speaker 2 (39:27):
But okay, I see what you're saying. Sorry, I was
going to say when you say that science, but you
might actually say that science. Oh never mind, continue, I'm sorry.

Speaker 4 (39:36):
Yeah, So that that was the that's the summary of
that story where I was when I was doing that farm,
and it's in the Bible, but I forget what verse
it is.

Speaker 1 (39:44):
Sure, I mean, I think you're talking about the story
of Elijah and the prophets of bail In in First Kings.
But I'm very much trained to understand which parts of
the Bible are true which aren't, and how do you
specifically determine the difference. And I'm not asking you to
be perfect. Like anytime I read a science textbook that
is maybe a few years out of date or honestly

(40:07):
is just written by a theorist that I don't always
agree with or concur with. I read critically and I
might find things that I believe to be accurate and
things that I don't believe to be accurate. But I'm
able to discern those things because I've read a lot
of other books that I'm comparing them to, and I,
you know, bring my own theoretical framework to all of this.
Tell me about yours.

Speaker 4 (40:28):
Yeah, let me point out the different role there between
science and religion, even in the Bible and the science
book as far as that goes. So, the Bible has
stuff that has been scienced and be written and its transplanting,
amongst other science. But there's no way to tell what's
what times. By definition, it's the process of learning that

(40:49):
is constantly evolving and fitsing itself into acting itself. So
there's not really going to be an abscract absolute answer
in science because let's say for example that okay, perfect example,
the firmament over the earths, right and back one hundred
years ago, well, for one hundred and fifty years ago,

(41:10):
people used to argue that the universe was finite, or
that the world was finite, and that there was a
dome over the earth, the farmament. You know, that it
let the water for the farmament, the dome into the earth,
and what YadA YadA. We don't believe that anymore. I don't.
Some people do, I think, but most people don't. And

(41:30):
so that's an example of religion versus science, because religious
people would say, oh, well yeah, but you know it
was a misinterpretation or something to that is that, whereas
science goes, oh, well, we went to the moon and
there's no dome, you know, over the earth. We can
see the Earth from the moon, and so we know
there's no dome. And so basically what religion does is

(41:53):
just moved the gold post and they say, oh, well,
the domes actually, you know, over the solar system, we're
over the wire or wherever.

Speaker 1 (42:01):
Sure, But what do you do, Benji? Like, what do
you do to understand which parts of the Bible are
of value? And I want to point out I've kind
of tried to ask you that question a few different times,
a few different ways. I'd like to hear your answer
and leave it there if we may.

Speaker 4 (42:16):
Oh, I I base value on the Bible based on
personal experience, my knowledge, and how I live my life.
So I guess you could all give a cuckle of morality,
sort of.

Speaker 1 (42:27):
A knows it when I sees it kind of mentality.
If it feels right, it must be at least somewhat accurate.
And then you compare it against other things that you've
read pretty much Okay, Well, I appreciate your honesty and
your ownership of that, and you know, in a certain sense,
I'll say that that's really all any of us can do.
But I have to say that if this is the
book that you're doing that too, and these are the

(42:49):
conclusions that you're drawing, there might be something about your
epistemology that's worth really examining. Consider your sources, consider your
use of intuition, and some of your strategies for evaluating truth.

Speaker 4 (43:02):
Well, I definitely don't use faith.

Speaker 1 (43:04):
So definitely don't use faith. Yeah, fair enough, fair enough.
I think we can largely concur on all of that.
And you know, I appreciate you trying to wrap your
head around all of this and trying to share all
of it with us. And I would also just maybe
like to encourage you to read some better books if
you want to understand where the world came from, if
you want to understand how to be a good, just

(43:26):
and moral person, there's so much better books worth considering.

Speaker 4 (43:30):
Well, I mean, I know about planetary disks and all
of that. I know how the world got formed. I
know about the gravity forces that helped playing the world
together and created the world, and molten walk and you
know all of that stuff of the years. So I mean,
also the moon came from the ears too, so and
I mean I'm saying I watched also hundreds of times now.

(43:53):
I've been watching Get Forwe over ten years now, and
I'm seeing people call me up and say, oh, we
was never on the moon. It was a hope YadA YadA,
which they don't understand. The nineteen sixties, we didn't even
have the technology at that time to fake a moon
landing and then not radio seeds or any of that
other trap that it would have took, I mean laser
lights and everything else to distort shadows and make it

(44:16):
all one duets in which is it possible on the Earth?
Well not not the way that the Moon was. So
I's so familiar with the photos that Neil Armstrong took
when he went on the Moon. All of the shattos
are one duetsinal and diagonal, which wouldn't be possible on
the Moon. And the only reason that it, I'm sorry,

(44:38):
it wouldn't be possible on Earth And the only reason
that happened on the Moon is because the way that
the sunways hit the Earth or i'm sorry, hit the Moon,
there's no flits and there's no were frat sin or
anything of the light, so everything's parallel.

Speaker 1 (44:55):
I think we're on board with agreeing that the moon
landing did happen, and I you know, I'm just excited
that we got to go there with you today. So
you know, again I don't disagree with like many of
your conclusions. I'm completely on board with, even if I
hear you pulling in some other things that you just
don't maybe have a lot to stand on.

Speaker 2 (45:17):
Yeah, it's how we get there that I think we
disagree mostly.

Speaker 1 (45:20):
Yeah. Yeah, but I appreciate your time and you talking
to us today.

Speaker 4 (45:24):
Yeah, I tent to get in there is the important part.
And also science is going to continue to advance with
I don't know if you're familiar with the knowledge, I
forget exactly what it was called. But eventually science is
going to outpace humanity. Technology is going to be indistreng

(45:45):
usible from magic and athlete.

Speaker 1 (45:47):
I mean, I think in many ways technology has outpaced humanity.
Like we know the social media is bad for our
health on a million different measures, and yet we created
it and choose, seeing that word very loosely to use it.
What a life? What a world? Benji? Thank you so
much for your time, and I hope you enjoy the

(46:08):
rest of your Sunday.

Speaker 2 (46:09):
Yep, yeah, yeah, I.

Speaker 4 (46:11):
Think a good example to go to would be artificial intelligent.

Speaker 1 (46:15):
It sure is. Take your care, Benji, you have a
nice day.

Speaker 6 (46:19):
I mean, he's not wrong, he's girl going on honestly,
That's why I wanted to keep that conversation going as
long as we did, is because we just kept bumping
into things that made.

Speaker 1 (46:30):
Me go, well, yeah, I'm so glad you know that.
I didn't expect you to know that. So yeah, yeah,
good on you. God bless you know.

Speaker 2 (46:38):
And I gotta say, Benji has come a really long
way since the first time I talked to him, maybe
a year or two ago. So Benji, you're doing great.

Speaker 1 (46:47):
Appreciate you. We also appreciate our top five patrons this week,
all of the folks that helped to keep the lights
on and pay our bills. Of course, we want to
honor and thank by name our top five, number one
being oops All Singularity, number two Dingleberry Jackson, three Coleve Helvetti,
four Ja Carlton, and five Moldred d Malcontent, who I'm

(47:12):
still very much in love with that name. Our honorable
mention this week at the number six spot is Martin Demers,
and I'd like to apologize to all of them because
I did not give Sidney the opportunity to read them
in a ridiculous voice or accent. It's just ruining our content. Yeah, yeah,
disrespect well signor are you ready to talk to Josh

(47:32):
and Indiana? Let's do it all right, Josh, what do
you have for us today?

Speaker 5 (47:36):
Hey, guys, how you doing. I whild be surprised that
I was next.

Speaker 1 (47:41):
Yes, I'm interested in once you have on your mind.

Speaker 5 (47:44):
Well, thank you, Sidney. I spoke with you and doctor Ben.
It was a while back, a while.

Speaker 2 (47:50):
Yeah, it's been like a year or so.

Speaker 5 (47:52):
Wow, you remember me. I'm so surprised, but yeah, it's
been it was a while. There were a couple of
things that I feel like I didn't explicate to you
guys clearly enough. First of all, I don't necessarily believe
in the explanations that are given in terms of a

(48:12):
Native American spirituality.

Speaker 1 (48:14):
Not knowing it feels like a very big claim with
not a lot of context or information for me. Josh,
can you tell you tell me where we're going with
this conversation.

Speaker 5 (48:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (48:24):
Sure.

Speaker 5 (48:25):
Basically, I've spent about twenty years give or take, moving
in and out of the Native American ritual space, so
I've I've seen a lot of very unusual things. The
one I talked about last time was the one that
was very weird and it affected me in very strange ways.

(48:47):
I'm not really particularly interested in talking about that one
today because it was a one time, right, like it
happened a singular time. But there are things that I've
seen twenty well, no, that's too many. No, it isn't
probably fifteen or twenty times. And that is these They

(49:07):
call them spirit lights. Nobody has ever told me what
they think they are. But they appear in most of
the seven Sacred ceremonies at some point, not every time,
but sometime, so like in sweat lodges, for instance, quite dark,
and I would say, trying to do the math in
my head, probably did about fifty or sixty sweats a year,

(49:32):
give or take, and you would see them in maybe
one or two per year.

Speaker 1 (49:38):
And that is what.

Speaker 2 (49:40):
So sorry, I feel like maybe I'm missing some context.
What is it that we're seeing or what is it
that you're saying we're seeing?

Speaker 5 (49:46):
Oh, sure they are these little green lights.

Speaker 2 (49:49):
Okay, So you're saying there's there's green lights that you
see during spiritual ceremonies that are performed by specific Native
American tribes.

Speaker 1 (49:59):
Correct in the context of incredible dehydration in physical distress,
I might add, yeah.

Speaker 5 (50:05):
Well, in a sweat lodge, yes, but if you're talking
about like uweepy or lawampe, that's indoors and it's just dark.
I'm like, totally totally dark. So you get these things
they don't seem to respond to stimulus, like they're present,
but you can't touch them, like I've tried to grab

(50:27):
them multiple times, failed every time, and it just it's
very unusual.

Speaker 1 (50:34):
What do you understand them to be or imagine or
believe that they are.

Speaker 5 (50:39):
I don't know, I really don't.

Speaker 4 (50:40):
Man.

Speaker 1 (50:41):
Sure, yeah, well I'm not a neurobiologist, but I feel
like I can propose some some theories. But I also
have to imagine that you are participating in these ceremonies,
establishing yourself in that context, and then calling the show
to tell us about it because you have some guesses.

Speaker 2 (50:58):
I also do have a question, is is anybody imbibing
during these ceremonies, because I do know that during a
lot of ceremonies very similar to what you're describing, there
are things like aohuasca involved different forms of natural things
being smoked. So I'm just curious in this instance, had
anybody been smoking or drinking anything.

Speaker 5 (51:19):
Lakoda ritual is very very sober pretty much exclusively to
the point where, well, at least in the communities that
I was in, Like, I can't speak across the board,
but in the communities that I was in, they really
didn't even want you to go and do ayahuasca ceremonies
or peyote road stuff, because at least again in the

(51:42):
way that I was taught during that timeframe, you get
your visions, you get your experiences by doing the rituals,
not a substance essential.

Speaker 2 (51:53):
And so through these experiences and witnessing these mysterious lights
that you're describing, are you and correct me if I'm wrong,
But are you saying that this is an example of
a belief system or a spirituality, a system of spirituality
that is more believable than the Bible? Or are you
saying experiences like that are why you think there's a

(52:16):
chance there might be truth to the Bible, Like, what
are your thoughts in terms of belief and what you believe?

Speaker 5 (52:21):
More in I'm more interested in information gathering methodologies from
a social science perspective that don't have It's what I'm
looking for, asking questions that don't infer answers to gather
good data, right you can ask somebody like, hey, did
you see those green lights? And there's a good or

(52:43):
at least I won't even say good, there is some
chance that they're going to be like, oh yeah, man,
I saw those. That was so weird when they didn't,
right Like, that is a thing that exists. People do that, Yeah,
you know what I mean. Like, especially in a group context,
if you're all standing around talking about it, it's really
easy for I don't even want to say bad faith actors,

(53:05):
but that's kind of what they would be to not
give you truthful results, right Like. I'm more interested, like myself,
in just getting an idea for how these things happen,
Like is there a naturalist explanation that can cover these
things appearing indoors outdoors, winter, spring, summer, fall, in the mountains,

(53:29):
in the forest, in the desert.

Speaker 1 (53:31):
Yes, Like, yeah, I absolutely believe that there are a city.
Did you want to jump in? I saw you, didn't
mean to cut you out?

Speaker 5 (53:37):
No? No? No.

Speaker 2 (53:38):
My thought is, though, what's the common denominator there? Human beings,
human eyes, human brains. So while I can see that,
there are questions like that, like why is this happening?
No matter the climate, no matter the time of day,
no matter the group of people. The thing that we
have in common in all of these instances is that

(53:59):
human beings are experiencing these things. So maybe it's less
about the environment and more about something internal that's happening
with human beings that can be explained physiologically if someone
were to look into it.

Speaker 5 (54:11):
So what if I hear you and I agree with you.
The part that gets to me is that they are
multiply attestable in a group of eight to ten people.
If you're smart about the way you ask questions, like
the way I try and do it is like what
was that like for you? You know, what was your experience?
Tell me about it? First round, second round, third round,

(54:34):
fourth round. You know, having been around it long enough,
I know how to walk my way around getting the
information I'm looking for without implanting ideas in people's heads,
like I'm okay at it, and I mean like I've
poured four sweats myself. That was just because people ask
me to one of those four the lights showed up, which, man,

(54:57):
I don't know, I don't know.

Speaker 4 (54:58):
It's weird.

Speaker 2 (54:59):
Well, let me give you it's going to sound like
a weird example, but stick with me. It's going to
sound weird, but I promise there's a point. So cap
sasan the stuff that makes halapeno spicy. Right, no matter
where we live, say you and Christy and I are
all on zoom together, We're at different parts of the planet.
It's different times of day depending on where we're located,

(55:22):
it's different climates depending on where we're zooming in from.
We all take a halapeno and we all bide into
the vlapeno. All three of us are going to experience
a burning sensation. We're all going to go, oh, wow,
that's spicy.

Speaker 1 (55:35):
That's hot.

Speaker 2 (55:36):
Now, we might disagree on how spicy your hot it is.
Right Like, if one of us has been eating halopenos
every day, we may not be surprised that it's spicy,
but we're all going to have the exact same wow,
that's really spicy reaction. However, I have parrots, and parrots
do not react to cap sasin. Cap sasin does not
impact them at all. They don't know what spicy is.

(55:57):
They've never heard of it. They can bust open a
vlapeno much, munch, munch, eat just fine, not have any
spicy experience whatsoever. So The reason I'm bringing this up
is because even still in the other examples you're giving
where you're like, but I've seen it, I've felt it.
In every example in which you are pulling your audience,
your audience is human. In every location you've been where

(56:19):
you're pulling your audience, your audience is human. So while
the environment may not change at the outcome, and while
the location may not change, or the time of day
may not change the outcome, at the end of the day,
the only way that you're gathering evidence is by using
humans and by asking humans their perspective, and maybe the

(56:41):
common denominator there is something that's physiologically being experienced and
felt by human beings because of the way that we are,
because of the way that our bodies operate, And I
would be curious to see if there's a way to
tell if maybe other species experience those same lights, are
humans the only one that do? Is there something with

(57:01):
the human eyeball that creates that anomaly that doesn't happen
to say, goats or dogs or cats, So that would
be my only argument there is, at the end of
the day, no matter what language you speak, or where
you're located, or what the weather's like or what time
of day. The only species that you are able to
get data from by speaking to them about their experience

(57:23):
is a human.

Speaker 1 (57:24):
Right. Well, if I can add on to that metaphor, Sydney,
we know that humans as a species, like not only
are we sensitive to spicy foods, but we know that
humans as a species, reliably, when deprived of access to light,
have light based hallucinations. That's something that we can replicate

(57:45):
in a laboratory and something that we just know to
be true about human.

Speaker 2 (57:48):
Beings and group hallucinations that they genuinely believe they're seeing.

Speaker 5 (57:53):
Phosphine activity is what that's called, I think, right, I.

Speaker 1 (57:56):
Don't know, not familiar with that term myself.

Speaker 5 (57:58):
Yeah. From Philip K. Dick from one of his uh
from one of his novels, he described something vaguely similar. Sure, okay,
oh my goodness, I'm sorry, guys, I hurt my back
And now it's saying why did you do that?

Speaker 4 (58:12):
What? So?

Speaker 1 (58:13):
Yeah, well, sorry to hear it. I guess is that
the most reasonable naturalistic explanation. Is there a spiritual or
any other explanation that you think makes more sense? And why?

Speaker 5 (58:25):
Well, I mean you know that goes back to like
even if I could verify right, Like, even if I
could say definitively, this is a thing that happened. There
were lights, right like we had a camera in there,
some what would that wouldn't prove any All it would
prove is that there was a flash of light. In

(58:46):
terms of you know, if you were to look at
it culturally, you get a couple of different answers. Sometimes
it is spirits that you know, walk with that particular
medicine person manifesting them in the lodge for a purpose.

Speaker 2 (59:02):
Question mark, are you sure of that? Or that's what
they believe?

Speaker 5 (59:05):
Oh, that's what the that's that's one of the cultural context.
They are not the context, but answers that.

Speaker 1 (59:12):
If you were, what are your conclusions?

Speaker 5 (59:14):
Like, hey, what was that? My conclusions?

Speaker 1 (59:16):
What are your conclusions or assumptions?

Speaker 5 (59:19):
Okay, I really don't bud, Like I would love to
say like oh yeah those are X y Z. But
for me to be able to say that, I need
an awful lot more proof than just lights appearing in
a dark place, you know, yeah right yeah, I mean,
and again we're talking in very abstract terms, so I

(59:40):
am not going to be able to sit here and
say that you know, this person at that sweat lodge
at that time had this specific experience.

Speaker 1 (59:48):
But I am able to comfortably say that human beings
do tend to hallucinate light when they are deprived of
access to light. And that's just a thing that we
know and is very likely and explos nation for what
we're discussing here. So again, what are we discussing here?
And why is there a sense of something supernatural at work?

(01:00:09):
Or what are your curiosities around this subject?

Speaker 4 (01:00:13):
Man?

Speaker 5 (01:00:14):
My curiosities ultimately are is it mass hallucination? I haven't
been able to find any good like academic and you
know what I mean when I say that, like a
peer reviewed paper on mass hallucination. I haven't been able
to find a good one. But I'm not an academic,
so that's probably on me. At first, I thought they

(01:00:35):
were maybe fireflies, but that doesn't hold up to any
kind of rigorous look it just it doesn't. But when
we're I'll just give you a for instance from back
when I was kind of still just starting. It was
one of my first experiences seeing them, and we had

(01:00:56):
gotten into a sweat and the guy who was next
to me, he was you know, he was a Native
guy doing this his whole life. And I noticed that
he was wearing a ring and I saw, you know,
those little green lights floating between the two of us,
and I thought like, oh, that's just his ring catching
some light off of the red hots, Like that's that's

(01:01:18):
what that. And when we got out, he was like, dude,
did you did you see the spirit light that was
moving back and forth between us? And I was like, dude,
I thought that was your ring and like there were
no stones in the ring, Like, I just don't know,
like it I've been.

Speaker 1 (01:01:34):
I mean, it maybe wasn't this. It maybe wasn't that.
It sounds very likely that it was hallucinatory. But again,
I'm trying to get at why this is important or
why finding some sort of knowing seems so significant. Whether
it was a reflection off of a gemstone, from some
smaller light amount of light in the room, whether it

(01:01:55):
was a bug, whether it was whatever, why does it
feel like it's important to know?

Speaker 4 (01:02:00):
Well?

Speaker 5 (01:02:00):
I could, I mean, I can speak for myself, so
you know, I've outside of the Native American context. I
did that twenty ish years you know, I was, I
was out on the reservation a couple times. Like, I've
met a lot of you know, the big named people
in that grouping of people who do things. I have

(01:02:22):
also been to Buddhist ceremony, uh, Western lodge type, So
you're you're oto that kind of thing, Golden Daw.

Speaker 1 (01:02:33):
I'm happy to let you continue. But is this in
service of answering the question why you care about what
these lights are or what their origins are?

Speaker 5 (01:02:40):
Yes, I've seen a lot of different things. There has
only been this context, just this, like just the Native
American ceremonial side of things that produced repeatable results. Now
they're not controllably repeatable, but they do happen enough that

(01:03:00):
it's become a pattern for me, my wife too.

Speaker 2 (01:03:03):
Okay, but you are you are again. It goes back
to the whole You're both human beings, so it's not surprising,
I mean, a.

Speaker 1 (01:03:11):
Human experience that we know happens to humans. We know
that humans hallucinate lights. So why this is not at
all meant to be a rude question, Josh, But like,
why are we still what is it that we're still
not answering nothing?

Speaker 5 (01:03:25):
I guess I'm just I'm trying to figure out how
to how to compile better data. Is it only possible
moving outside of human sensory experience or where where do
I mean from.

Speaker 2 (01:03:40):
I've got an idea, and maybe maybe you've tried this,
but my thought would be, have everyone bring a dog
and see if the dog reacts to the light or
a cat, because you know a cat. If they spot it,
they'll follow it with their eyes. They'll you know, try
to bad at it, things like that, or they'll be frightened.
Maybe you guys should bring animals to the next one
and just see if when these things show up the

(01:04:02):
animals respond too. Maybe it's something that their eyes can
pick up as well. And if that's the case, what
does that mean to you? And kind of explore that
even further. Maybe their anatomy is similar and that they'll
experience some of the same visuals you will, but you'll
at least know for sure that it's not just a
group idea or some kind of group hallucination. If animals

(01:04:25):
are responding to it, who have no reason to be
dishonest about their experience.

Speaker 1 (01:04:29):
Sure, I mean, they can still respond to the same
like hallucinations that they experience in light deprivation. I think
I would encourage if you are trying to bring some
amount of like rigor to this experiment, or however we're
trying to frame it, that you ask yourself what would
be an acceptable answer, and not to belabor the point,

(01:04:50):
but I would like to point out that doing some
research onto how the human eyeball works, and how the
human brain works, and how human brains are known to
hallucinate when deprived of light sounds very much like an
acceptable answer. Absolutely that I would want you to grapple with.

Speaker 2 (01:05:07):
Absolutely sure.

Speaker 5 (01:05:09):
But when we're talking about eight or nine people.

Speaker 1 (01:05:13):
Do all have human eyes that have all been experiencing
the exact same thing, where we know that in the
absence of light, the human eyeball will hallucinate light.

Speaker 2 (01:05:24):
Right, That's the thing is that the humans are always
the base of this experiment, and as long as human
beings are always the base of this experiment, all we're
proving is that human beings eyes respond the same way
to whatever it is that they're experiencing in that moment.

Speaker 1 (01:05:39):
Which has already been established in a laboratory. And I
imagine that there are similar experiments on other mammals, including
cats and dogs. I can't speak to that. I don't
have that research in front of me. But I know
absolutely that human beings do have this experience.

Speaker 5 (01:05:56):
So going back to shared hallucination, because that is something
that that interests me very much because I think that
is the most likely probably, But I can't find any
data on that, like research on that, and I would
like to learn more about do you do you guys
have could you direct me somewhere or do I.

Speaker 1 (01:06:17):
Mean nothing specific that I would put you towards. But
I have to say it is kind of irrelevant in
this moment, like even if none of you should discuss
your experience, even if nobody says to one another, this
is what I saw. If we all know that you
are all going through the exact same stimuli or the
lack of stimulation, that you're all going to have a

(01:06:40):
similar experience. It doesn't have to be quote shared in
that sense, whether you go in there individually or as
a collective group, you're going to have the same results.
So there's nothing to suggest you're seeing the same magical
orb but only that you are seeing magical orbs, because
that's how human eyes work.

Speaker 5 (01:07:00):
If you can track it down to a specific point
in time and get three people who say, at this point,
I saw XYZ and that right.

Speaker 1 (01:07:11):
I mean, maybe if one person had been in the
lodge for ten minutes and another person had been in
the lodge for forty five minutes, and another person had
been there in an hour, and none of them saw anything,
and then magically at the exact same moment they all
saw something like I suppose you could devise a experiment
with some amount of controls to try and isolate this phenomena.

(01:07:33):
But there do seem to be some very accurate, reasonable
simple explanations already well on hand, and I'm not trying
to shove them down your throat, Josh, but your lack
of interest in accepting them is maybe the part of
the scientific rigor that I would encourage you to grapple with.

Speaker 2 (01:07:50):
Yeah, that was my thought, as well as the answer
is there. We have the answer, and it is probably
very biological. It's why we don't want that to be
the answer, or why we doubt that that's the only
answer that is curious to me.

Speaker 5 (01:08:08):
I am sitting down. Yeah, Okay, Well, I mean I
think that's really it. Guys. Do you have well, I.

Speaker 1 (01:08:16):
Hope that with it. I very much appreciate your curiosity
and interest here.

Speaker 5 (01:08:20):
Thanks for calling, do any ideas on where I could
look up actual data on group hallucinations? But that's just
also what kind of just interests me.

Speaker 2 (01:08:30):
I'm not a professional in that field, so I wouldn't
want to point you somewhere in endorse and.

Speaker 1 (01:08:36):
Even that that term group hallucination needs to be operationalized
in your research a lot more before you're going to
find anything particularly useful. I mean, I myself would want
to point you towards research and information about hypnosis, which
you know is more closely related to my field and
my area of interest and doesn't necessarily answer your question,

(01:08:59):
even if I think it maybe kind of would. So
uh yeah, I I don't have anywhere in particular that
I would point you to, other than wanting to point
out that you're gonna need to operationalize your terms a
bit more.

Speaker 5 (01:09:12):
What does that mean operational I'm not familiar.

Speaker 1 (01:09:15):
When you say group hypnosis, you could be referring to
a million different types of phenomena, and that notion is
so broad that it doesn't really describe your experimental field. Gotcha,
But you know what, Google scholar as a place to start,
just with some humility around what you were reading in
your capacity for interpreting that data without a larger, larger

(01:09:38):
knowledge base to incorporate it into and scaffold it onto.

Speaker 2 (01:09:42):
I would say the source dot com.

Speaker 5 (01:09:44):
Layman does make it a little more difficult. Yeah, but
another caller.

Speaker 1 (01:09:51):
Curious about your findings. You have a good one. Thanks
for giving us call.

Speaker 5 (01:09:55):
Well you nice to talk to you.

Speaker 1 (01:09:57):
Okay, Well, yeah, Ga to talk to you as well. Josh.
We appreciate you. Sidney. I know we're getting a little
bit long in the tooth, but I'd love to try
and sneak in this conversation with Sean quickly if we met. Yeah,
that's okay, We're gonna jump right in. Sean, you have
some interest in, I guess the notion of organized atheism. Yeah,
what's on your mind?

Speaker 7 (01:10:17):
How are you all?

Speaker 1 (01:10:18):
Are you doing all right? What can we do for
you today?

Speaker 4 (01:10:21):
So?

Speaker 5 (01:10:21):
I'm actually all two things.

Speaker 7 (01:10:23):
I had the thing just said, and also so I
was in the tent with Josh, and I also saw
the green light.

Speaker 1 (01:10:29):
I don't want to know what you're cutting out a
little bit there.

Speaker 2 (01:10:33):
Yeah, I didn't hear the last thing you said.

Speaker 7 (01:10:35):
I was in the tent with Josh as well.

Speaker 4 (01:10:38):
And I also.

Speaker 1 (01:10:41):
That's fascinating. What what of it? How much of our
conversation did you hear? What do you have to tell us?

Speaker 7 (01:10:46):
I'm kidding, I was just wondering this is and like,
what atheist community.

Speaker 1 (01:10:57):
At the right, Well, the Atheist Community of Austin is
a five oh one c three nonprofit organization dedicated to
the promotion of atheism, critical thinking, secular humanism, and the
separation of religion and government. At least that's how I
like to describe the talking points. Tell me about your question,
I guess.

Speaker 7 (01:11:17):
That that really is. My question is like, what, like,
how long have you all existed? What do y'all like
as far as nonproper work? Because I used to live
somewhat close to Austin. I don't know, I'm just curious.

Speaker 2 (01:11:29):
Oh yeah, So I like to think that the I noticed,
like your question here on our screen, is about community.
I like to think that the ACA is just an
example of a larger organization that replicates the community that
you can also find in smaller batches. So, for example,
I don't live in Austin. I actually live in Phoenix.

(01:11:50):
But the idea that there is community for people out
there like us who don't believe in God, or we
consider ourselves atheist or agnostic, or people who consider themselves humanists,
or maybe they're not sure. We provide basically a place
for them to go to listen to conversations that we
have that they might not be able to have themselves. So,

(01:12:11):
for example, a lot of people, and maybe you've experienced this,
maybe you haven't. A lot of people lose their family members,
or their community or their connections, or they even risk
losing their job by asking these questions about the existence
of God, or the truth behind the Bible, or whether
or not religion and history and research go hand in hand.

(01:12:34):
And so I think one of the most important things
about organizations like ours, like the ACA, is we provide
that platform. We provide those conversations. Those people who maybe
are too afraid or risk too much in having those
conversations are welcome to come listen to us, be ask questions,
answer questions, ask questions ourselves, have these conversations, make points,

(01:12:57):
interview people who are professionals in their field, whether they
are professionals in the field of history or science or theology,
and we basically just provide a community the same sense
that churches often provide for Christians we provide a community
for people who, for whatever reason, are seeking answers to
the same questions that we are.

Speaker 7 (01:13:18):
Okay, So this could be like especially beneficial for someone
that grows up into the town with maybe five thousand
people but.

Speaker 1 (01:13:27):
Churches exactly, proximity.

Speaker 2 (01:13:30):
Exactly, not a lot of outlet exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:13:33):
Yeah, okay, So a lot of the work that we
do is providing community for folks who feel isolated in
that way, while also helping people to grapple with their experiences.
You know, we live in a culture and in a
global community where religion is thoroughly normalized and many of
the harms of religion are glossed over, and so having

(01:13:56):
an opportunity to create community but also create conversation around
what it is like, for instance, to grow up in
fear of the rapture or in fear of hell, to
be shamed for your identity or your sexuality, or your skepticism,
or your non compliance with a set of morality that
is not functional or useful in your life. Like, there's

(01:14:18):
a lot of meaning to those types of conversations for
people coming from all different kinds of background. Absolutely, okay.

Speaker 7 (01:14:25):
And then as far as like I would assume that
for both people on let's say that actively to religion,
like you said, government or the actual bodies of power personally,
like a system could negatively impact people if it's like
strongly embedded with like a purge mindset or a religious mindset,

(01:14:49):
Like what is the you think America the most realistic
way to separate like from water on the you know, how.

Speaker 1 (01:15:01):
Do you separate church? Yeah, so, Sean, we're having a
very difficult time understanding you with a pretty weak connection.
I will say that separation of church and state is
an important part of our mission, and we do that
through donations to a number of different organizations. We do
that through having meaningful conversations and promoting the idea on

(01:15:22):
an individual level. We do that in the way that
we vote and the way that we engage with politics,
the way that we shape the conversation around who is
in power and who ought to be in power. It's
definitely a challenging question to answer because it is such
a broad issue, but separation of church and state is
fundamental to our mission, and we attack it primarily through

(01:15:45):
our education aspects, like programs like this, where we discuss
issues and recognize the way that religion. Being encroached upon
by religion encroaching on government causes harm to society.

Speaker 2 (01:16:00):
And I think we also provide a place where people
can come and say, just because members of leadership believe
these things, doesn't mean that we have to believe these things.
Or just because members of leadership, whether it be at
a state, national level, whether it be a smaller level
like your community, just because they say the Ten Commandments

(01:16:20):
belong in schools, right, doesn't mean that we have to say, yeah,
the Ten Commandments belong in schools. We provide a place
where people can learn that there are more of us
out here that say, no, they don't belong in schools,
or no, that isn't actual literature, or no, the Bible
isn't a publication that should be studied by children as

(01:16:41):
more than a historical document of like fiction, you know,
like like Aesop's fables, how they are arguably important, but
not because they're true. So I think the most important
thing that we do is we help people recognize that
they're not the only ones having these thoughts, and they
don't have to agree with members of leadership who say

(01:17:01):
these things, and they don't have to agree with people
around them who all think the same thing. Because it
turns out there's a lot more people who agree with
the questions that we provide than the actual things that
are being told by their church or in their community,
or by their leadership or by their politicians. They're just
afraid to speak out because they think they're the only

(01:17:22):
outlier in their community, when in reality, there are millions
of us out here.

Speaker 5 (01:17:25):
Yeah, that's awesome.

Speaker 1 (01:17:27):
You can certainly find out more about our organization at
atheist typhencommunity dot org. Check out some of the content
that we've put forward. But I appreciate your curiosity and
I hope that you will, on whatever level is appropriate
to you, join our community of atheists. Yeah, and I mean.

Speaker 7 (01:17:45):
If I could ask one more one more question, I
just wonder what is what do you think and this
is Rob, what do you think is the biggest ofvents
that like business, Christianity does go or the type of
personal because say like abortionally weird anything broadly speaking in America.

Speaker 1 (01:18:07):
Yeah, I mean again, Sean, you're you're kind of breaking
up there a little bit.

Speaker 2 (01:18:11):
I think he asked what the biggest and correct me
if I'm wrong. I think he asked what the biggest
offense is that Christianity, in say, law and government and
places of power commit on the American people. Is that
is that correct?

Speaker 4 (01:18:24):
Sean?

Speaker 5 (01:18:25):
Basically?

Speaker 2 (01:18:26):
Okay, yeah, I mean I've got an answer, but Christy,
you're welcome.

Speaker 1 (01:18:30):
Did Yeah, I guess I'll just say quickly that as
a gender and sexuality therapist, I have to say that
it for me, no wrong answers here, But for me,
it has to do with the way that religion is
prescriptive about our sexuality, that it tries to tell us
that sex is for one specific thing, or maybe two
specific things, that it is only honoring to God, that

(01:18:52):
it is only right or just when it exists in
a monogamous cishet relationship, when it has been bled by God,
when it is in the service of procreation or creating intimacy.
All of those things are fine and great and wonderful,
But there are so many forms of healthy, happy sexuality
that don't look like that. And by creating a worldview

(01:19:14):
in the way that we teach our children in schools,
the mores, and the way that we enforce them in
our culture through TV and through mass media, like there's
so many aspects of the way that we demonize healthy,
normal sexuality that causes incredible trauma. I think that we
are universally impacted by it, but it's also going to

(01:19:37):
be incredibly differential if your own natural sexuality doesn't line
up with what's being prescribed to you by religion and government.

Speaker 2 (01:19:46):
And I would say on a broader scale, I would
say the biggest harm is shame. There is a direct
link where religion shames people for physiological actions their body
has done without their consent. So, for example, you are
shamed for having sexual urges before marriage. You're shamed for

(01:20:09):
having an egtopic pregnancy that cannot survive as a viable pregnancy.
You're shamed for having questions and having doubts that arguably,
in my opinion, aren't a choice at all. It's just
your brain operating the way that your brain was made
to operate. And so I think the biggest harm that
religion in places of power puts on people is the

(01:20:30):
idea that they should be ashamed of things that happen
to them and thoughts that they have, and biological urges
that they have that are of no control of their own,
and they should be ashamed of being interested in exploring
those biological urges that they did not choose to have.
And there are so many biological urges we can talk about,
you know, mental illnesses, things like that that are of

(01:20:52):
no control to the person that they are happening to.
But religion says you should be ashamed, you should stop,
you should keep yourself from a acknowledging those you should
keep yourself from acting on those things, when in reality,
it's just your body being the human body that you
were given when you were born.

Speaker 7 (01:21:07):
Okay, Okay, that's awesome.

Speaker 4 (01:21:11):
I need to go to stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:21:13):
Well should I do appreciate you calling in if you
would love to hear more. I'd love for you to
call in on a stightly slightly stronger connection and to
check out our website, which is again atheist hyphencommunity dot org.
But I appreciate your curiosity and I hope that this
community has something off for you. Yeah, thank you, all right,

(01:21:34):
take good care. City fun show. We went to some
interesting places, we did some cool stuff. I'm I'm glad
you have been in.

Speaker 2 (01:21:41):
Yeah, this has been fun. I really enjoyed our calls today.
I'm really impressed by the changes I've seen in Benji,
watching his thought processes just morph and change over time
through talking to us, through doing his own research. I
really enjoyed those questions there at the end from Sean.
I forget sometimes that people are new to us, that
people are here for maybe the first time or one

(01:22:02):
of their first times, and so I love that he
just kind of called in and was like, Hey, what
are you guys about and gave us an opportunity to
just go into a little more detail about what we think,
what we believe while we're here. Wonderful questions. So thank
you Sean for calling in. Everybody called in with just
really great thoughts and opinions today, and I was excited
to talk to them.

Speaker 1 (01:22:21):
Heard well. I want to say I thank you for
a twenty dollars super chev my friend Alan Ferguson saying, Hi,
Christy and Sidney. Great show, very much appreciated. And with that,
let's go ahead and get Aaron back into remind us
of the question of the week. We'll send out some
lover rings. It's me again, Hello, Hey, how do the
question show? The show is great?

Speaker 3 (01:22:44):
It was really interesting Benji it seems is I'm I'm
kind of confused why Benji still believes God.

Speaker 1 (01:22:51):
He seemed to be.

Speaker 3 (01:22:52):
Saying contractory things like he didn't go to the Bible,
yet he still believed in the Christian God, things like that,
So I'd be interested in hearing from Benji. So why
do you still believe? What's what's holding you to this
belief structure? Were like, I couldn't quite figure that out.
And then Josh, you know, he's seen lights and he
seems to want to know if they're hallucinations or not.
Maybe a camera might help determine if they're real or not.

(01:23:14):
And even okay, let's say, let's grant them that they're
not hallucinations, that they're real. Okay, what does that mean?

Speaker 1 (01:23:20):
They're just lights?

Speaker 3 (01:23:21):
There were just they're just lights now, right, So they're
just lights and appreciated Shaan's call as well. And uh,
and I'm not sure I have an answer. Maybe that
that Christianity is the answer. That would probably be the
greatest harm that I think that it does, that this
is somehow a Christian nation that we need to follow Christianity,
there's no other dogma other than Christianity. I think that's very,
very harmful.

Speaker 1 (01:23:41):
Fundamental to our legal system that needs to be to
children in schools it's scary ideas.

Speaker 3 (01:23:46):
It's in it's bullshit.

Speaker 2 (01:23:47):
Those are bullshit ideas that that insisted the separation of
church and state was also.

Speaker 1 (01:23:53):
The first damn place. Yeah, yeah, it's a problem. It's
a problem.

Speaker 3 (01:23:57):
Yes, And so our question of the week this week is, oh,
I got to get over here to the document the
rarely to Who is the rarely talked about fifth Horsemen
of the Apocalypse? Put your answers down below in the
comments to this video.

Speaker 1 (01:24:13):
All right, we'd love to hear your answers. Who are
you all sending out loverings to today?

Speaker 3 (01:24:17):
James, rational thinkers everywhere?

Speaker 1 (01:24:21):
Fair enough? You know, everybody who helps work on this show,
everybody who called in and participated, why the hell not
Bonnie Blue as well. Thank y'all so much for joining
me today. And I guess I'll go ahead and say that,
you know, if you don't believe, this is your community,
and we appreciate you being here. And if you do believe,

(01:24:41):
we don't hate you. We're just not convinced, not at all.

(01:25:06):
We want the truth. So watch Truth Wanted live Fridays
at seven pm Central. Call five one two nine nine
one nine two four two or visit tiny dot CC
forward slash call t w H

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