Talk Heathen 09.36 with ObjectivelyDan and Kelley Laughlin

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, Talkithan audience. Objectively Dan here, and I hope you're
lying truth Wanted because we're doing a little bit of
a truth Wanted takeover of Talk Heathen today. So buck
up because the show is starting right now. Hello, Hello,
and welcome to another episode of Talk Heth. I'm your host,

(00:23):
objectively Dan. This is a show. Well, we're open to
all your questions about religion, secular humanism and atheistic morality, cosmology, philosophy, science, history, life,
the universe, and everything else that kind of comes with that. Again,
I am your host, objectively Dan. Joining me today is
Kelly Laughlin of Truth Wanted Fame. I'd say, is that appropriate, Kelly,

(00:46):
I'd say so.

Speaker 2 (00:47):
I don't know about fame, but yeah, I am.

Speaker 1 (00:50):
It's your first time on Talk Heathen. I believe it
is not. Oh wait, that's right. No, you were on before,
but it wasn't with me. That's the important that is important, right,
This is our first time I'm hosting Talk Heathen together
and we're both known for our truth wanted antics. I'd say,
so we're This is a special truth Wanted edition of
Talk Keithan. That's how I'm choosing to frame this. But

(01:12):
in case you're new here. Talk Keithen is a productive
production of the Atheist Community of Austin, a five oh
one c three nonprofit organization dedicated to the promotion of atheism,
critical thinking, secular humanism, and the separation of religion and government.
And we are a live calling show. We have open
lines for you right now, so get your calls in
at five P one two nine two for two, or

(01:32):
if you don't want to call through the phone, you
can do it through your computer a tiny dot cc
slash call t H. We are live every Sunday at
one pm Central, But if you can't make it live,
that's okay. We do have recorded versions of the show
available wherever you get your podcasts, and of course on
YouTube as well. So we are here, we are live,

(01:54):
and we're ready to go. Kelly. What's up? How you doing?

Speaker 2 (01:56):
I'm doing awesome. I'm really happy to be here. It's
it's kind of weird to me, like to be doing
a show and it's light outside, because it's usually.

Speaker 1 (02:04):
It's true, that's true. And you know, I always like them.
I enjoy I like doing Talk Heathen because I feel
like I get a little spicier on Talk Keathen. Yeah, sure,
and I do want truth wanted, and I think it's
just a little more appropriate for that space. Anyway, Like
I said, we got Tina uh Shoutsatino, who is taking
calls right now, and we have open lines, so you
should go do that so you can give us something

(02:25):
to talk about, because otherwise, you know, it's just gonna
be me and Kelly kind of shooting the breeze for
you don't want to hear that.

Speaker 2 (02:32):
You can do it.

Speaker 1 (02:33):
Yeah, that's true.

Speaker 2 (02:33):
That's it's great a little bit, but not through it
too much.

Speaker 1 (02:37):
It's great a little bit. We were having some fun
talking about, you know, Bigfoot in the Mormon Church. He's
probably been talked about in Talk Heathen before, I imagine,
but in case you don't know, it's not official canon
in the in the Mormon Church, but there are a
lot of Mormons that believe in Bigfoot because one of
the early church sort of founders wrote a letter to

(02:57):
some guy saying he think he saw a big, hairy
guy who he interpreted as Caine, you know, cursed or
forever walk the earth and you know, be cursed and stuff,
but also is Bigfoot, I guess. So that's an interesting
little rab hole.

Speaker 2 (03:13):
There, which actually totally explains why Bigfoot is seen all
over the world because he has to wander the world
for the earth forever.

Speaker 1 (03:19):
So yeah, if you're if you're cursed to live forever,
you might as well, you know, take in the sights. Yeah, right,
I think that's it.

Speaker 2 (03:26):
And like I said, that's a perfectly great explanation for
the sightings all around the world too. I'm I don't
know why I didn't even think of that before.

Speaker 1 (03:34):
Yeah, but like you probably can't. You have to go
to the big places, right, because if you go to
the small ones, like if you go to like visit
Easter Island, I don't even know if you can do.
People just take boats there. Can you actually walk around?
If you're like not a researcher. I'm just saying, like,
you probably get caught. You're like, hey, that's a big
hairy guy on Easter Island. You know, like you probably
get you probably get spotted pretty quick. I imagine, Yeah, I

(03:57):
would imagine that.

Speaker 2 (03:58):
Yeah on a small island I've been, unless you're like, uh,
got a really good hidden cave, I.

Speaker 1 (04:04):
Guess right, right, Yeah, there's something to that. And also
it kind of reminds me of like the technically, like
the first sighting of Lockness was by a Catholic saint.
Did you know this?

Speaker 2 (04:15):
I know that there was. I do know that a
Catholic saint did record a citing of the not Lockness monster.
I didn't know that.

Speaker 1 (04:22):
There was a Catholic saint. I guess. You know they're
not saints at the time, you know, they're always saints.
Kind of figured out later. But he was a guy
that I supposedly saw a water beast in Lockedness, I guess,
and did the sign of the Christian Cross to him
and scared the beast away. So I guess that's a
that's a pro tip. If you're scared me, don't have

(04:44):
any crosses on you because you might be scaring Nessy away.
Maybe that's maybe that's why we've had some trouble people
some Christians have, you know, gotten on the submarines or whatever.
I guess they don't you submarines in that lake?

Speaker 3 (04:57):
You know?

Speaker 2 (04:58):
They people say you can't prove an negative all the time, right,
But I don't know if you're familiar with environmental DNA studies.

Speaker 1 (05:06):
But they Yeah, dude, I'm always about environmental studies about
it every day, Kelly, you know this.

Speaker 2 (05:12):
They did do an e DNA study of blackness and
there's no master there, so yeah.

Speaker 1 (05:18):
For audio listeners, I was joking. I don't know if
that came.

Speaker 2 (05:20):
No, it's cool. Well, you know, and and I knew
you were joking because I knew you knew. But I
don't know how many of our viewers know that I've
seen a.

Speaker 1 (05:27):
Thing where they did do like they done like sonar
and stuff on that lake, right, because it's like, if
the thing is like that big, like it should be,
it should be popping up, right, Have they like put
submersibles down there.

Speaker 2 (05:39):
I don't know, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I remember. Gosh,
it probably was back in the eighties when they got
the picture of the flipper that made the front page
from a from an underwater sonar or an underwater camera.
But I mean obviously that a lot of people were
saying it wasn't a flipper, and obviously it probably wasn't
because if it was, we'd be picking up some DNA

(05:59):
that we went that we weren't able to identify, right,
And interestingly enough, they did pick up DNA from an
eel species they didn't know was living in the locks,
so they did say something there at least.

Speaker 1 (06:10):
So eels are so cool, that's like we need to
be studying. We need to take our lockness research and
put it into eels because like there's still a lot
of do we know how they make electricity and stuff?
The electric ones? Now, wasn't that like a thing we
don't we didn't know about? Is that we know that now? Species?

Speaker 2 (06:26):
For centuries we thought that baby eels and adult eels
were different species.

Speaker 1 (06:31):
Yeah, I think I heard that. And then also like
they didn't know how eels reproduced or whatever. What's up
with eels?

Speaker 4 (06:36):
Man?

Speaker 1 (06:38):
Why are eels the mysterious beasts of the sea that
we don't know much about? That's kind of unexpected. If
there's one thing I've learned about this life, though, Kelly,
it's that there's going to be holdouts for every single
possible crazy belief out there. If you need to find
somebody that has a belief in something like, you will
find it, you know what I mean? Like that's the

(06:59):
best they have worst part of humanity. I think I
don't have no idea.

Speaker 2 (07:03):
How hard I'm trying to not sing The eels song
from The Mighty Boosh for copyright purposes.

Speaker 1 (07:09):
Right right there. I would love man, Debbie awesome if
we got a caller about somebody saying, no, not only
are eels mysterious, they also contain some sort of supernatural power.
A counting out there believes that for sure.

Speaker 2 (07:24):
All right, I'm sure right if they're just underwater.

Speaker 1 (07:30):
Drones, right, you think they're mechanical in nature. I was
thinking more so in the lines of like, you know,
maybe they have some sort of supernatural receivers by which
they get their electricity.

Speaker 2 (07:42):
Oh yeah, they might be like getting there might be here.
I get an idea for you. There's an alien satellite
circling the Earth that we haven't detected, and it's beaming
the electricity down to the eels.

Speaker 1 (07:56):
M yeah, that could be it. I like that idea.
I will say. You know, I was in Boy Scouts.

Speaker 3 (08:01):
I did.

Speaker 1 (08:02):
There's a Boy Scout place called Sea Base in Florida
they got the opportunity to go to and I actually
I got scuba diver certified through now and I did
scow diving out there, and I saw a lot of
more a eels. I don't know if you've ever seen
a more eel in real life. That is probably one
of the scariest sort of monster creatures like that exists
in real life that you can go see because they

(08:24):
don't look like they belong on this planet. They look
like they belong from outer space.

Speaker 2 (08:28):
To me, they always kind of look like a sock
puppet with really big sharp teeth.

Speaker 1 (08:32):
They look like soft robbits. But we were explicitly warned
do not put your fingers next to them because they
will eat them off. Yes, right, And it's like, okay,
duly noted. And at night we did some night dives.
That's when they actually come out from the rocks, because
in the day they're just kind of like a right,
they're kind of like chopping around, But that's when they're
floating around and stuff, and it's like, okay, like aliens

(08:53):
are real and they exist. They are here in the
ocean where we do not belong, and we need to leave,
you know. So ah, man, I love that. When I
was a kid, I was a big like megalodon kid.
I loved the megalodon and I loved looking up like
uh when YouTube was brand new back in like oh seven,
I remember looking up like megalodon videos and it was

(09:14):
always just like some steal shot of some photoshop of
some and I was like, whoa, this is this real?
This is amazing. Why aren't we learning more about the megalodons.

Speaker 2 (09:27):
I remember the first time I saw a megalodon jaw.
It was a reproduction, of course, but it was just
I was amazed that, and I was Somebody was saying, well,
you wouldn't want that thing to eat, and I was
why it would just swallow a whole. It wouldn't be
old like just.

Speaker 1 (09:40):
Like that, right. I think people have like made this
kind of joke before. But I was worried about a
lot more things as a kid, like why haven't we
figured out this Bermuda triangle situation? I was really worried
about that that that was affect my life in some way.
I don't know why, Like I don't know, I'd be
taking a plane out there or something.

Speaker 2 (10:00):
I remember You're in A comedian mentioned it, but it
was true. For me. It was quicksand I was terrified.

Speaker 1 (10:06):
Another one said crocodiles, you know, like that kind of stuff.
Basically everything Indiana Jones encountered, you know, kind of worried
about that booby traps. You know, that's true, That's true.

Speaker 2 (10:19):
I remember getting caught in mud. That went dump to
my ankles and I was like, oh, I'm calling quicksand
I'm gonna get I'm gonna die.

Speaker 1 (10:26):
Right, Okay, we got a super chat. By the way,
we'll be reading some super chats from folks who give that.
If could put that back on the screen just a second,
I will read it. But yeah, thank you to the
folks who donate and who give those super chance. Man,
I don't know where I went. If what's a bounce screen,
I will read it again. He went by too fast.

Speaker 2 (10:46):
I got it. I got it. Some impersonation of a
moth person.

Speaker 1 (10:50):
And go a moth person.

Speaker 2 (10:54):
I don't know, Kelly, thanks, Josh.

Speaker 1 (10:57):
Had a great time today. What's a month? I guess
you goes like, what the what do moths sound like?
They don't make sounds, right, they just go like make
sound Well that's what he said. A moth person managing
like a like the moth man. That's what they mean, right, Yeah,
just's so weird. Yeah that's what he is, but just

(11:20):
like really loud. That'd be really scary a moth person
if you saw like a giant out of all the
cryptids that I don't know why. I guess because the
ability to fly is kind of freaky. It is maybe
kidnaps you something.

Speaker 2 (11:32):
Yeah, it could swoop down. Do you know the story
about the kid that got picked up by the eagle
in Illinois? When no, that was that actually happened and
people acclaim it was like a thunderboard, but it was
probably just like a golden eagle or something underbird. You
or four years old, and it actually picked him up
and carried him about thirty feet before it dropped him.

Speaker 1 (11:51):
Wait you kill him?

Speaker 3 (11:52):
No?

Speaker 1 (11:53):
No, survived. Oh that's good.

Speaker 2 (11:55):
Yeah, he was fine. I'll send you I'll send you
a link to the story.

Speaker 1 (11:57):
Okay, all right, that's awesome. I want thunderbirds to be real.
That's another one that'd be like the world would be
objectively cooler real.

Speaker 2 (12:06):
Yeah, I agree, right, I.

Speaker 1 (12:08):
Would want to like you could like maybe ride one
or something if they're big enough. I'm imagining like a
sort of Eagles of Lord of the Ring style.

Speaker 2 (12:15):
Right situation.

Speaker 1 (12:16):
But what I mean, a thunderbird is kind of a
nebulous concept, right, because I don't know what that means
in sorts of scale or dimension, Like, is it just
a giant falcon? Is that basically what it is?

Speaker 2 (12:27):
Honestly, I think what it really is is just a
way to make a animal spirit in charge of a storm.
So there was never really a thunderbird. It was just
a caricature of a bird bringing in the storm.

Speaker 1 (12:40):
Okay, that's a way smarter answer than my thing. It's
is just a giant, writeable eagle, which is what I
would want, I think if I was in control of
things around here. But while we're shooting the shit here,
I think we should bring in bringing our friend Scott
Dicky here to talk about Oh you consider Yeah, well,
I mean i'd say so. I don't know, maybe you

(13:04):
feel differently Scott's today today.

Speaker 5 (13:07):
Let's go with that for today, and we'll go with
that for today. Yeah, yeah, it was.

Speaker 6 (13:11):
It's nice to see both with this truth Wanted takeover.

Speaker 5 (13:14):
I think the last time I saw both of you,
I was backing you up on truth Wanted.

Speaker 6 (13:18):
So I'm kind of you. I'm part of the I
get to be part of the game today.

Speaker 2 (13:23):
Just a few weeks ago.

Speaker 1 (13:24):
To last week. Yeah yeah, well Scott, what have we
got for our prompt yet?

Speaker 5 (13:32):
So let's look at our question our Last week's question
was complete. The sentence rarely talked about fifth Horsemen of
the Apocalypse is blank. And here are our top three answers.
We gathered these, we accumulated all of the votes, and
we we tallied up all of the responses and and
the results have been sitting on a Mason jar on
the Funk and Wagnall's porch for the last week, and

(13:54):
so here they are. Number three from god Wins seven,
rarely talked about fifth Horsemen of the Apocalypse is enlightenment
as surely this leads.

Speaker 6 (14:02):
To the end?

Speaker 5 (14:05):
Wow, Okay, deep thoughts there, Deep thoughts there from Godwin seven.
For our number two answer, also from god Wins seven,
the rarely talked about fifth Horsemen of the Apocalypse according
to Christians, is wokeness true?

Speaker 2 (14:17):
True?

Speaker 1 (14:18):
That is I would have thunk that. Yeah, the Christian
grifter thing going on right now. If if they are,
if if they say the word wokeness, that is definitely
a red flag for sure. If not, the other things
are red flags, it's.

Speaker 6 (14:33):
A red flag and a sea of red flag.

Speaker 1 (14:36):
It's an extra red flag exactly.

Speaker 5 (14:40):
Our number one answer, though from last week, was from
Phil Hoenig. The rarely talked about fifth Horsemen of the
Apocalypse is malicious incompetence.

Speaker 6 (14:50):
I think that is hit the nail right on.

Speaker 3 (14:52):
The head there.

Speaker 1 (14:55):
Yes, all right.

Speaker 5 (14:56):
So our question for next week, though, is what's the
kind of truth you don't want to hear? What's the
kind of truth that you don't want to hear? So
what do you guys have to say? Kelly, let's start
with you. What what kind of truth do you not
want to hear?

Speaker 2 (15:11):
I'm just going to give you a truthful one, the
kind that help you improve yourself.

Speaker 1 (15:15):
That's right, That's right, Kelly, You're so right about that.
Like Weather, I was gonna say, stepping on the scale,
that's the kind of thing you don't want to see,
you know. But yeah, that's that is a scary thing
about self improvement is looking at yourself that way.

Speaker 6 (15:32):
So Dan, you're going with the scale thing for your answer?

Speaker 5 (15:35):
Okay, yeah, all right, Well if any of you think
you can top those answers, let's hear them. So Adam
to the U to the discussion down below, do not
put it in the live chat. We're going to be
looking down at the comments section. So the question again
is what kind of truth you don't want to hear?

Speaker 1 (15:51):
What?

Speaker 6 (15:51):
What's the kind of truth you don't want to hear.

Speaker 5 (15:53):
So well, we'll give our top three best answers next
week right here on Talkithen.

Speaker 3 (15:57):
Hell.

Speaker 1 (15:58):
Yes, thank you, thank you Scott.

Speaker 6 (15:59):
For that right, my pleasure, my pleasure.

Speaker 1 (16:02):
We will thanks so much. Well, he was just gone,
I know, he disappeared, the puff of smoke.

Speaker 2 (16:08):
I guess the crew doesn't like him as much as
we do.

Speaker 1 (16:10):
That's what I'm saying. We could have Captain on for
another five minutes or so, but you know, the crew
was like, no, get this guy out of here.

Speaker 2 (16:16):
Icy today.

Speaker 1 (16:17):
You are see it's that talk Heathen. It's that talk
Heathen energy. He kind of brings it out. I think, so, yeah,
this is a calling show. I think we should probably
start talking to people here in a second. What do
you think?

Speaker 2 (16:29):
Sure? Sure? This fun? Because I took this person's first call,
and now will I have taken their last call.

Speaker 1 (16:35):
To Yeah, yeah, we should get to that. Before we
get to the first call, though, we should thank the awesome, amazing, spectacular,
stupendous crew that are making Talk Heathen the show that
it is today. So maybe if we can get to
a crew camp and just to take in here and
show off a lot of people on a lot of
hands being waved. Thanks so much, everybody. More people, everybody's

(16:58):
joining in, Thanks so much, crew, every I give a
shout to the crew in the chat for making this
show happen. And that being said, let's to our first
caller today. We have Benji calling in from Alabama. Benji,
you're live on Talk Heathen. What's going on?

Speaker 4 (17:11):
Hey? So on, Tim. I was going to point out
the problems where God could do any time because of God,
but I think I might try the night the case
for that that might be a little more interesting. So
if you don't mind, what is the problems that y'all have,
and I can kind of go from there that y'all
have with the idea that God is God so we

(17:33):
can do whatever he wants.

Speaker 1 (17:35):
I mean, I have to know that God's real first,
That's right.

Speaker 2 (17:39):
That's the problem.

Speaker 1 (17:40):
Yeah, I think that's it, because like I don't even
know if there is a God that's real. I don't
know his properties, I don't know what he does, what
he can't do or can or can't do, right, But
like I have to even know that there is a
God first before we can even get into the minute show.

Speaker 4 (17:53):
Of that to the factive argument, here. I mean, let's
just go with the trysting god. So the second of argument,
let's say that the Christian God is will what them
would be the argument against a deity a god to
do whatever? Because they are a god. I mean, if
they have the ability to bend space, time and reality itself,

(18:14):
I mean, obviously they'd be able to do whatever. Then
at that point, Yeah, so.

Speaker 1 (18:18):
I mean, I guess I agree with you. I don't know, Kelly,
maybe you have a different take, but it's like, yeah,
if he's a god, he's a god. I don't know
what I can or I don't know if logic is
gonna I can't be like, oh, he can't logic. Maybe
I could say there'd be some things that don't logically
make sense, but maybe God is illogical?

Speaker 3 (18:34):
Right?

Speaker 2 (18:34):
Maybe are we talking about the ability to do anything
or the morality to do it of doing anything?

Speaker 1 (18:40):
Right? That's a key point too, because a lot of
times when atheists are criticizing God's abilities or things he does,
it's more so the reasons why than like whether he
can or can't. I think that's a good point.

Speaker 4 (18:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (18:52):
Well, I was going to go into the morality side.

Speaker 4 (18:55):
Of it too, but I mean that for the second moment,
let's just say God is definitely powerful minus the obvious contradictions,
you know, making a lot so every day he can't
lift the type prep.

Speaker 1 (19:06):
Okay, limited power.

Speaker 4 (19:08):
As powerful, it's rosally possible. Okay that a lot of
the objections that y'all do bland up. And this has
been done by everyone from Matt Della Hunt you to
a whole bunch of y'all that I've seen on video.
It's the moral objections that you know, some of the
stuff that God does as won't because you look at
it as long that you recognize in your human perception

(19:30):
that it's won. But to God, I mean, let me
just take the flood for example, Like if God was
able to make you out of nothing, out of door
to play or whatever you want to call it, and
he flooded the world and destroyed all life to start over,
if he's able to start over, then it's kind of
a relevant, isn't it.

Speaker 1 (19:50):
I mean, I mean, it's not if you care about
you like people. It's not if you care about the
well being of others, right, because it is it is
doing a harm. Right, you could say whether he's justified
in doing it or not as a separate argument, but
you can't deny the fact that it is harming people, right.

Speaker 2 (20:09):
Yeah, do you do you have family? Benji?

Speaker 4 (20:11):
Huh?

Speaker 2 (20:12):
Do you have family you care about?

Speaker 4 (20:14):
Well?

Speaker 2 (20:14):
Yeah, okay, Well would you want to watch them get
drowned for no reason of their own? For no you know,
it wasn't their fault. They got drowned. They were good people,
right right?

Speaker 1 (20:24):
Yeah, I know what your family right now, you wouldn't
have anything to say about it. You'd be like, well,
I guess he's God, so whatever, Right do you.

Speaker 2 (20:32):
Think that would you? Would you think you think that's
acceptable that people can just kill your family for no
reason or for a reason it has nothing to do
with your family. That well, that's what we're talking about.

Speaker 1 (20:43):
That's what we're talking about. That's what happened. Right If
you believe the flood narrative to be literally true, right, and.

Speaker 2 (20:49):
You look at all the all the toddlers that were
drowned that day, Yeah, they didn't do anything wrong. They
were just too you know, they were two, three years
old or younger.

Speaker 1 (20:58):
Right.

Speaker 4 (20:59):
Well, what I was and within was the was the
flood example. Because that's the best one that I can use.
That you know, kind of compare it contrast here to
the human ways. So if a god is able to
create and destroy, I mean really, you know, if he
created stuff, why couldn't he destroy it?

Speaker 3 (21:22):
That?

Speaker 1 (21:22):
I have an answer to that, ahead, Kelly.

Speaker 2 (21:24):
I created my son. Does that mean I have the
right to kill him?

Speaker 3 (21:27):
Well?

Speaker 4 (21:27):
No, because then well.

Speaker 2 (21:29):
There's your answer, Benji. You just gave yourself the answer.
Why is it? Why is it all right for God
to do it? If it's not all right for me
to do it?

Speaker 4 (21:37):
Just makes another one out of nothing?

Speaker 1 (21:39):
That's why make another kid too?

Speaker 4 (21:43):
Yeah, if God, if God would dreats, if God regrets
making humanity, which is what the Bible actually says, a
lot of people don't realize that. But God redreaded making
humanity the first time because it's screwed up everything and
everything was screwed up, and so he ground the wall.

Speaker 2 (22:00):
Well, so God's not perfect.

Speaker 1 (22:01):
Yeah. So again, the argument, the the onus of the
claim is on you, Benji. You have to justify whether
this is okay for God to do just because God
has the ability to do we recognize that right within
the narrative, he obviously can do it because he did
it within the narrative.

Speaker 7 (22:18):
Right.

Speaker 1 (22:18):
The argument isn't oh, just because he can means that
he should, right, because God can do a lot of things.
God could also not kill people. God could also obviously
save people through the redemption of his son, right, So
there's other ways those people could have been redeemed, clearly
if Jesus can die for people's sins, but instead he
decided to kill people. Right, So the question is it

(22:40):
was that a good thing or not? Right? The atheist
would say no, especially if there's other options that are
available to people.

Speaker 4 (22:46):
Well the way well too, science one. What humans consider
the mole is their opinion, and it's completely relevant.

Speaker 3 (22:54):
To a god, any god.

Speaker 4 (22:56):
Second, I don't believe that Jesus died for sin.

Speaker 3 (23:00):
That scat.

Speaker 4 (23:00):
Jesus was slaughtered by the womans and the people of
Israel or Jerusalem at the time, and I don't think
he needed to die anyway, because the whole idea of
sax official atonement for sins is stupid in the first place.

Speaker 1 (23:13):
Okay, so why did God need to kill those people?
Why was it okay for him to do that just
because he can.

Speaker 3 (23:19):
When he's flooded?

Speaker 4 (23:20):
Are you asked him?

Speaker 3 (23:21):
Why did he flood the earth.

Speaker 1 (23:22):
Yeah, I'm asking why is it okay for him to
do that? I understand why he did it, he was pissed,
But just because you're pissed doesn't mean you have the
right to do anything you want, right, So why was it, Like,
you know, it's never been clear to me why this
is suddenly okay for him to murder people and then
be like, oh, I'm never going to do this again, Right,
why did you do in the first place? If it
was so terrible?

Speaker 4 (23:43):
Well, well, God is able to addres science too. I
mean that's the reason he did that. He was dreaded
making the human ways the way that he did, and
he has scrats, and in order to start from scrats,
you have to destroy what's there.

Speaker 3 (23:56):
Just build.

Speaker 4 (23:57):
Again, he can't build a building on top of another
a building, but.

Speaker 1 (24:00):
He obviously doesn't. Again, we've already like he doesn't have
to he's God. Are you're saying there's no other things
he could have done besides killing people?

Speaker 2 (24:09):
And you can't build a city on top of another city.
Look at Troy. Troy was like twelve layers of cities
built one on top of another. So you're just wrong
in that one. And let me say something to you
before about another one of the things you said about
morals that we can't under You know that we don't
have that. God doesn't have the same have the say
morals as human beings. Well, if a god doesn't have

(24:30):
good morals, why should he be worshiped? What would be
the purpose of worshiping a god that has bad moral Yeah,
he's not sending an example for good behavior, he's not.
He's not. If you worship him, you're not guaranteed that
he's not going to just turn around and kill you
because he has bad moral Yes, I mean the morality
of a god, I think is pretty important if you're
going to worship it.

Speaker 1 (24:51):
You're arguing that a human's morality isn't relevant to God. Okay,
why is God's morality relevant to me? Then? Right? It
goes both ways.

Speaker 3 (25:00):
Well, it's not.

Speaker 4 (25:01):
His morality is not dependent on you at all. I mean,
God can slaughter all of you, not give it down.

Speaker 1 (25:07):
That's what makes it so terrible. I think a morality
that doesn't value the the the like lived experiences of people,
or the lived experience of any sentient being for that matter,
is a bad morality. It's not good what's the point
of morality? Then, if you can just hurt and harm
whoever you want, does it make sense?

Speaker 4 (25:25):
Well, I think more objective anyway, There's not an there's
not an absolute morality. There's no such thing as that.

Speaker 1 (25:32):
We're on the same page there.

Speaker 4 (25:35):
Every nason in the world has different moralities, Every person
has a different morality. It's all subjective, it's opinion. But
when it comes to God, something that is timeless and
balless and can be in multiple places and dimensions at once,
and is literally, for the sake of argument here all powerful,
at least logically powerful, and could discloy the world and

(25:55):
control the weather and destroyed buildings and everything else. Like
if the human waste might's gone angry, and it won't
for God the punish the human waste because the human
wayte isn't doing what God wanted them to do.

Speaker 1 (26:07):
In the first right. But okay, so the god of
the universe, who could do all these things, who has
this great power, and who's beyond everyone else, his best
solution was to kill everyone in a flood, how does
that make him better than people?

Speaker 2 (26:19):
Seriously, especially when you could have just made humans do
whatever you wanted humans to do.

Speaker 1 (26:23):
Yeah, but he didn't.

Speaker 4 (26:24):
Want that.

Speaker 2 (26:27):
Because killing everybody was better. Do you understand what our
problem is here, Benji? Yeah, we are saying it was
better to leave people alive and teach them a different
way than it is to kill them all. And it
seems like that you're that you think that's okay to
just kill people instead of re educating them.

Speaker 1 (26:44):
Yeah, I'm sorry. Do you think if God like rounded
up particular people he didn't like in the gas chambers?
Do you think that would be okay to How is
that different from flooding the earth and killing millions of
people that way?

Speaker 4 (26:55):
Well I'm not. Well, okay, so you're comparing of flooding
to us to genocide?

Speaker 1 (26:59):
Yeah, it is, No, it's literally, jenis understand it was
a genocide?

Speaker 3 (27:04):
Right?

Speaker 2 (27:05):
My definition the flood was genocide.

Speaker 4 (27:08):
So let's back up here.

Speaker 1 (27:10):
So let me ask you this, even God, Wow, No,
let me ask you this, what makes God better than Hitler?
Because at least Hitler didn't kill everybody, He only killed
a certain group of people. God made no no nonsense
of it. He was like, I don't care if you're
one years old or fifty years old, You're going to
die the same way, how does that make him better?

Speaker 3 (27:29):
Seriously comparing God to Hitler?

Speaker 2 (27:33):
Me, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, How the hell is.

Speaker 1 (27:42):
That man killed toddlers and babies? God killed literally everybody because.

Speaker 2 (27:50):
God killed a bunch of people and Hitler killed a
bunch of people. That's how we can make a comparison, Benji.
And if you can't under and if you can't understand
at and you're going to sit and laugh at an
actual logical comparison, I'm not sure that you're ready for
this conversation.

Speaker 4 (28:07):
It's not a logical comparison. That's the issue, you know what.

Speaker 2 (28:11):
That's because you don't have the ability to understand theological
connection does not make it, make it that there is
no logical connection there, and you go back in time
and understand it.

Speaker 1 (28:22):
You go back in time, you'd look those five year
olds that are about to die in the flood in
the eye and say, this is right. Actually, this is good.
God deserves to do this because he's God. You'd say that, Okay,
I'm going to.

Speaker 2 (28:33):
Prove a point here with Hitler God, Yeah, what does
that have to do with it?

Speaker 4 (28:40):
Because on the same footing, for one.

Speaker 2 (28:46):
It's fine that you're just Scott We're not claiming Hitler
was God. We're not claiming that Hitler was on the
same level as God. What we are saying is God
killed a bunch of people. Hitler killed a bunch of people.
In that respect, they are they are the same, right
do you understand that, in this limited circumstance they are
the same? Do you fucking understand that that's the only similarity.

Speaker 1 (29:11):
I mean, it's not a good similarity. Do you understand that, Like,
it's not something you want to be similar to.

Speaker 4 (29:17):
Well, no, I'm saying why The only similarity that you're
really pointing out is that they boast loted people I
can agree with.

Speaker 1 (29:24):
Yes, yes, that is literally the point we're trying to make.

Speaker 2 (29:29):
Wow, Like I said, your inability, you do understand.

Speaker 1 (29:35):
Let's hear this.

Speaker 4 (29:36):
We're okay, So there's different reasons why that happened, though, Okay,
so hold on hold.

Speaker 1 (29:45):
So if you have the good if you have good
enough reason, it's good enough to kill millions of people,
that's what you're saying.

Speaker 4 (29:51):
Well, okay, let's make an example. Does the does the
I forget the phrase of that, like, does the does
the reason? What the mains or whatever the hell? It's
the way, it's somewhere a group of people could poison
the entire wond is it better for those people to.

Speaker 3 (30:09):
Die or everyone to die? What?

Speaker 2 (30:10):
Wait?

Speaker 1 (30:11):
No, the toddlers and the babies that were killed in
the flood did not have the capacity to kill millions
of people. What are you talking about?

Speaker 2 (30:18):
Yeah, and it's better for nobody to die.

Speaker 1 (30:20):
Also, Jewish people didn't either. Wait, I'm used to who
is this even for? What this metaphor is?

Speaker 8 (30:27):
Well?

Speaker 4 (30:27):
No, I'm saying if there's no option for not one
to die, and either way someone would die, is it
better for less people to die?

Speaker 1 (30:36):
Although that's the thing. Nobody had to die. Why did
anybody have to die in the flood narrative? Why couldn't people?
Obviously God has chosen people to be redeemed in other ways, right,
The Jewish people were redeemed for their stuff all the time.

Speaker 2 (30:50):
That's good, Paul. Look at Paul. He got redeemed by
by a vision. Why couldn't God just give everybody a
vision and redeem everyone instead.

Speaker 1 (30:59):
Of killing bated? Why do you have to kill everybody?

Speaker 4 (31:01):
It wasn't a vision. He went blind. It wasn't a vision.
He just went blind.

Speaker 1 (31:06):
Okay, and guess what. Paul became one of the most
influential Christians in the history of Christianity.

Speaker 2 (31:11):
So it doesn't make everybody blind. Yes, second, you're you're
missing the point here a Benji? Yeah, got got Let
me talk for a minute, Benji. God could have done
things to people like he did with Saul Paul to
make them be better. He did not have to kill everyone.
We know that God could change people's minds. It's in

(31:34):
the Bible, the Bible that you believe in. So if
you believe the Bible is correct, you have to know
that these minds could have been changed, but instead God
chose to kill them. Instead of saving them, he killed them.
Do you understand this, Benji?

Speaker 8 (31:51):
No?

Speaker 4 (31:51):
No, I do. The position is that when sufficient, when
sufficient interaction, that anyone mind can be thanks. Is that
what you're saying?

Speaker 2 (32:02):
If you're a god, God? Why not?

Speaker 1 (32:05):
What is God?

Speaker 2 (32:07):
It's you're a God? Benji. Yes, he could change people's minds.

Speaker 9 (32:11):
He has he.

Speaker 2 (32:12):
I just gave you the most common example, well known
example with the salt Paul.

Speaker 1 (32:18):
Paul participated in the murders of Christians. If you recall,
it's called it's recalled that he take he took the
coats of those who stoned the Christians to death, right,
so he wasn't exactly innocent himself.

Speaker 3 (32:30):
Well, well, no.

Speaker 4 (32:31):
One was back then, really, I mean, but also I
want to bring you up an interest in But.

Speaker 1 (32:36):
Jesuss, you want to bring up something else instead of
actually addressing literally anything that we're talking about.

Speaker 4 (32:42):
Something here you said with sufficient and ask them from
a god it with tangs anyone's mind. But that was
part of the problem. You know, the reason that God
stepped away in the first place after the flood is
because the whole reason that the world got that way
was because he in a vein too much.

Speaker 2 (32:58):
Benji, can I stop you for one second? I want
you to think about what you're doing. You realize that
you are making excuses for the murder of millions of people, right,
that's what you're doing. You are sitting here telling us
why it was okay to murder millions of people. You
realize that.

Speaker 4 (33:16):
Right the popped the ways, there wasn't millions of people.

Speaker 2 (33:19):
No, no, Benji, wait, stop stop yes or no question.
You realize you are making excuses for the murder of
millions of people right now?

Speaker 4 (33:28):
Right, I realize that that's what it seems to some
people listening.

Speaker 2 (33:32):
Yes, yeah, but you can't admit it to yourself that
that's what you're doing, can you?

Speaker 4 (33:38):
It is it is the understand that I understand that
I'm uh, it's finding the reasons why that happened. It
doesn't mean I agree with it, but I did thay
that God is God.

Speaker 2 (33:49):
So I mean, Benji, you're basically saying makes right?

Speaker 1 (33:54):
So does it matter what people think? So morality is
just whatever God says he wants it to be. That
that's not an a objective system of morality. In fact,
that's that's the most subjective he could possibly be.

Speaker 2 (34:04):
And Benji, if you don't agree with it, why are
you defending it? If you don't agree with it, why
are you defending it?

Speaker 4 (34:10):
Well, I'm trying to explain number one, why it happened,
with it the Bible says why it happened. Number two,
that your morality as a human being is completely irrelevant
to any God, not even just Christian God, el a
Hem or.

Speaker 2 (34:28):
Any Apparently that didn't address my question. Yeah, I asked you,
if you didn't believe it, why are you defending it?

Speaker 3 (34:36):
Right?

Speaker 2 (34:37):
What is it within your morality that compels you to
defend this murder of millions of people if you don't
agree with it.

Speaker 4 (34:43):
Well, no, I'm saying, is with your morality, the way
that you look at stuff, your perception as a human
asked I.

Speaker 2 (34:50):
Didn't ask you about my morality. I asked you about
yours my morality?

Speaker 4 (34:54):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (34:55):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (34:55):
What is it a good way? Simple question? Was it
a good thing that God did this? Yes?

Speaker 3 (34:59):
Or no?

Speaker 4 (35:00):
I'm sorry?

Speaker 3 (35:00):
What was that? Well?

Speaker 1 (35:01):
God flooding the earth?

Speaker 4 (35:03):
Right?

Speaker 1 (35:03):
I'm assuming you you believe that this was an event
that happened in history. Was this a good thing that
God did? Yes?

Speaker 3 (35:09):
Or no? At the time? That well, to God? Yes?

Speaker 4 (35:13):
To the humans?

Speaker 2 (35:14):
Know what? What what do you think? Benji?

Speaker 3 (35:17):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (35:17):
What what do you think?

Speaker 2 (35:18):
Well?

Speaker 4 (35:18):
I think is that it might have been necessary at
the time.

Speaker 2 (35:22):
It's like a yes or no? You agree with it?
Yes or no? Do you agree with it?

Speaker 1 (35:26):
Yes or no?

Speaker 4 (35:27):
Well the way society?

Speaker 3 (35:28):
Yes or no?

Speaker 2 (35:29):
Benji, yes or no? Benji?

Speaker 1 (35:32):
And Kelly spicy here, I said no, all right, then, So.

Speaker 2 (35:38):
Why are you trying to explain to us that it
was all right?

Speaker 4 (35:42):
Because y'all always have an absent send the stuff God does,
But you don't take into account that he is a god.

Speaker 3 (35:48):
He's not a Oh oh that's right.

Speaker 1 (35:50):
Oh okay, God can do God's God. So that means
killing millions of people is okay? Because he's God somehow. Yeah,
I say that.

Speaker 4 (36:01):
I didn't say God's God so he can do whatever.

Speaker 3 (36:03):
I didn't mean it that way.

Speaker 2 (36:04):
Well, why do you care?

Speaker 3 (36:05):
So you mean?

Speaker 1 (36:06):
Hold on?

Speaker 4 (36:07):
Wait? Wait?

Speaker 1 (36:07):
What do you mean?

Speaker 2 (36:08):
Go ahead?

Speaker 4 (36:09):
God, by definition is not a human being. You can't
my stuff out of nothing. He my stuff doesn't.

Speaker 1 (36:16):
Matter, doesn't matter that God's human, that's fine, whatever. Why
does that mean he can do whatever he wants? Why
does that make him morally justified?

Speaker 4 (36:23):
Well, I mean, let me ask you this, is there
a point to object into that there's nothing you can
do about it?

Speaker 1 (36:28):
Okay, that's not the question though. Why does that make
God morally justified?

Speaker 3 (36:33):
Why?

Speaker 4 (36:33):
Why won't you answer that?

Speaker 2 (36:34):
I mean, you're you're because we're still waiting for you.

Speaker 1 (36:38):
I don't you understand. I don't believe in God. Okay,
this doesn't matter to me. We're just talking about something
that doesn't exist. But to the Christian right, the Christian
does believe that God exists and that God has done
things in history. So if that's true, then he is
subject to human judgment. Whether or not human judgment is
you know, meaningful in any sense, that's another story. But

(37:01):
if you do believe in a thing called objective morality,
then you do believe in the standards, right, and God
can either meet those standards or not meet those standards.
And I would argue that even if you believe in
objective morality, God has no real barrier on our accountability
for his own actions. He doesn't meet that standard. He
doesn't meet any like meaningful standard of objective morality that

(37:23):
we could possibly understand. And so the whole project of
God defining morality just kind of fails because it just
falls down to he can do whatever he wants, which
is an objective.

Speaker 3 (37:33):
So for starters, well, I.

Speaker 4 (37:35):
Don't believe in objective morality at all.

Speaker 1 (37:38):
Yeah, Okay.

Speaker 4 (37:41):
The what I was mate in a point too, is
I understand you don't believe in God, and that's fine.
The time that I was saying is that, and I
was trying to make this point is that God is
not a human being. You were literal in.

Speaker 2 (37:56):
We know this, We've established this, we know that we
agreed to that. Were fine with that. You don't have
to make that point.

Speaker 4 (38:01):
Again, subject to human judge or human morals is what
you said. You said that he's subject fem most he's
got to be.

Speaker 1 (38:09):
Judged either way. But he doesn't even meet objective morality.
That's that's my point as well. There's nothing objective about
his actions here that that that makes reasonable.

Speaker 4 (38:18):
Sense, subjective I believe it is. Okay, that's I don't
believe him.

Speaker 1 (38:22):
That's fine. But God still did a thing. Okay, he
still killed lots of people. The question we are debating
right now is whether or not that was justified in
any sense of morality, right, Like, in any whether it's
a local, subjective sense or an objective sense, it's not justified.
That's the point.

Speaker 4 (38:40):
Well, I mean it is justified because he had a
reason for doing it.

Speaker 1 (38:45):
So because you have a reason to do something doesn't
make something justified.

Speaker 4 (38:49):
If it's a good thing, it does.

Speaker 1 (38:51):
I mean, I know, what, why what is the good reason?

Speaker 2 (38:54):
Yeah? What was the good reason?

Speaker 4 (38:56):
Well, I mean it says it in Genesis that the
oas was a ok up to it of everything else.

Speaker 2 (39:01):
I mean, so why couldn't he just uncorrupted? Yeah? Why
couldn't he just uncorrupted like we we just wanted to
circle Benji. Yes, giving him the Paul Saul revelation and
corrected it.

Speaker 1 (39:12):
Yeah, and there's other people that have been redeemed.

Speaker 4 (39:14):
You can't have good if.

Speaker 2 (39:17):
That doesn't It made no sense to in any way
shape or form is an answer to my question.

Speaker 1 (39:22):
Yeah, that doesn't answer anything.

Speaker 2 (39:24):
Yes, it does, you know, Benji, I'm gonna ask again,
and I'll ask real slow. Okay, Benji listened to me.
Why did God have to kill people instead of changing
their minds or their personality? Like we know that he can,
as he did with Saul. Why did he have to
kill everyone instead? That's my question?

Speaker 4 (39:43):
Well, because he did not want everyone to just be
sinceret to him all.

Speaker 3 (39:49):
The time and not have free will.

Speaker 2 (39:51):
They didn't have to be They could express their free
will if they're dead.

Speaker 1 (39:54):
Benji, explain that one to me.

Speaker 2 (39:56):
Yeah, how do you do?

Speaker 1 (39:57):
How does that work?

Speaker 3 (39:59):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (39:59):
Wait, oh man, I can't brainwash these people. They need
to express their free will. Let's just kill them instead. Yeah,
that makes sense. Tell me about that one, Benji.

Speaker 4 (40:08):
Well, I mean you have a soul. You don't believe it,
but people do have soul.

Speaker 1 (40:13):
Okay, how are they going to express their free will
if they have no body in which to express it,
because it's it's floating in a giant body of water.

Speaker 4 (40:22):
Lastly, I would say that, you know, well, I believe
in limbo and stuff anyway. But let's just say the
example of heaven. Okay, your soul goes to heaven, you
still have a soul. You can still move around, so
you still have free will. It's not like when you
die and go to heaven, you can't damn move You
gotta go through the gate.

Speaker 1 (40:37):
I mean, okay, so they can express their free will
in heaven. It's what you're saying. Wow, listen when I listen.
When I killed my wife, I was letting her express
her free will in heaven. That was it, Judge, Judge, please,
I wasn't listen, listen. She was making me mad, so
I had a reason to kill her, right, judge, And

(40:59):
so I wasn't violating her free will. She just gets
to express it in heaven. Do you think that would
held up?

Speaker 2 (41:06):
Wasn't that defense kind of used with a mother and
her children.

Speaker 1 (41:09):
I don't know. Probably that drowned her children.

Speaker 2 (41:11):
She wanted to go to heaven so they'd have a
better life. When I mean, I mean, that's the same thing.

Speaker 4 (41:18):
Right.

Speaker 2 (41:19):
There was a woman who drowned three of her children
because she thought they would go to have heaven and
have a better life. So isn't that basically was that
okay for her to do that? Since it was basically
the same thing God did, Right.

Speaker 4 (41:32):
I'm trying that the human ways has a different mindset.

Speaker 2 (41:38):
Then do you think it was all right for her
to do that? Since God did it? I mean that
was God showing her that that was moral and good.

Speaker 4 (41:44):
So right, she's a human, he's a God. Difference, that's not.

Speaker 2 (41:48):
When I asked Benji, I'm asking what you if you
think it was moral for the woman to do that
when she learned that moral from God.

Speaker 4 (41:57):
I learn that if a god that's going is to wall,
there's a good reason behind it.

Speaker 1 (42:05):
You are really not listening because Kelly is saying the
woman has a reason, and in fact, it is the
same reason that you're saying that God has, which is that, oh,
these children get to go to heaven, and you're saying, oh, well,
these people can still express their free will in heaven. Right,
So she's expressed she's acting on the same reasons as God.
But you're saying that the woman is wrong, but God
is still right. Why no, The.

Speaker 4 (42:26):
Reason I gave for godflying the others is that the
oath was sto left and you had to start over.

Speaker 2 (42:30):
That was what I said.

Speaker 1 (42:31):
Well, this woman thought the same thing you're saying. It's
justified because they they they didn't want to act on
their free will or whatever.

Speaker 2 (42:38):
This woman had the same idea. She thought the world
was so corrupt it was gonna you know, it was
going to be a bother for it was going to
hurt her children, be a burden on them, so she
sent them to heaven instead. It's she used the same
excuse that God did here, Benji, the same one.

Speaker 4 (42:52):
How old was the children?

Speaker 1 (42:54):
They were like between how old was the children? Yea
under they explain to me why the age of the
child matters in the murder of that.

Speaker 2 (43:06):
It all depends on how you define a baby.

Speaker 4 (43:11):
So if the children understood what was happening and that
they was going to die, and they went along with it,
then none.

Speaker 2 (43:19):
Of the people in the flood.

Speaker 1 (43:25):
There is no world.

Speaker 2 (43:27):
You are trying, Benji. You are trying so hard. You're
trying so hard to say that God wasn't really sing children,
and it's hurting you. It's hurting your brain trying to
think of a way that they're not.

Speaker 1 (43:45):
There's no world in which the children are old enough
to understand the situation in order for this to make
this okay?

Speaker 3 (43:52):
All right?

Speaker 1 (43:53):
So all right, well, I think we need to let
you go. We have other callers that we want to
talk to, and I think are going to to us
a little bit better. But before we go, do you
have anything else you want to tell us? Okay, I
don't hear anything. I think I don't know. Well, he
says he's online. I'm dropping you out anyway. What a
dumb conversation, Jesus oh Man.

Speaker 2 (44:13):
Yeah, that would be great on a dodgeball team.

Speaker 1 (44:16):
Huh yeah, seriously. So you know what's great is that
Christians like Benji will say, you know, we don't understand
God's morality, Like God just works on a different thing
and we can't judge him by our standards. But really,
I don't understand human morality, to be honest with you, sometimes,
because we can justify the most terrible, awful bullshit if

(44:36):
we truly think it's for a right and justice, right
and just cause, which is is what Christians do when
they talk about the flood as a real, sort of
historical event. Thankfully it's not real.

Speaker 2 (44:48):
I thought you were going to go somewhere else with that. Honestly,
what I was thinking here here was Benji telling us
we couldn't understand God's morality and then trying to explain
it to us. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (44:58):
I don't know if Benji understand.

Speaker 2 (45:00):
Yeah, humans can't understand That's what he was saying. Humans
can't understand God's morality. But here I'm going to teach
you what it is, even though right you're a human
and you supposedly can't understand it either.

Speaker 1 (45:10):
Humans can't understand it. All we know is that it's
just somehow, somehow we know that, I guess yeah. But again,
a lot of Christians get wrapped up in this because
they the point is not the criticism of God's morality
that honestly, at the end of the day, doesn't actually matter.
The point is whether God is real or not. Right,

(45:30):
we can't, like, we can debate the morality of it
all day, but if we don't even think God is real,
it's really pointless to atheists. So Christians get really tripped
up on like this whole conversation. It's more entertaining for
us to be honest with you because obviously it's not
just than any real concept of the word, but you know,
it is what it is, Soway. That was fun.

Speaker 2 (45:54):
What a time.

Speaker 1 (45:54):
Hey folks, If you want to become a channel member,
you should do that. Click the button below the video.
You get custom chat emotes, early access eclips, and shorts,
and you help perpetuate the mission of Talk Heathen and
the atheist community of Austin. Another way to support us
is by sending super chances. If you get them in,
we'll read as many as you can. In fact, I
think we we got one earlier, if I'm not mistaken.
I don't see it on the notes, but if crew
can bring that up on screen there it is five

(46:16):
dollars from Ann Johnson. Thanks so much. That says thank
the great Donut in the Sky for Talk Heathen, And yeah,
sure that's cool. You know, I think the crew for
talking personally, that they put in a lot of work,
many more than some Donuts in the sky do.

Speaker 3 (46:33):
Was that.

Speaker 1 (46:33):
I think that was the only super I don't think
we had any more. I don't see any on our
notes here If not, then you can put on right
now just going by so yeah, and we'll read them.
Another thing I want to say, if I can scroll
back to the place where I was at, is to say, hey,
like and subscribe. If you're enjoying these conversations and enabling notifications,
comment below on your favorite calls or callers, and you know,

(46:54):
be sure to respond to that prompt that we have
this week. And lastly, we do have merchandise as well,
timing out cc slish HCA four T shirts, sweatshirts, hoodies, hats,
pine glasses, mugs, just everything you can think of. Look
at that in that black and red and also a
little bit of white in there too, those colors. Maybe
that's it talky than you already know. That being said,

(47:17):
I think we can get back to the next caller
and see what's going on. We have Lease calling in
from Canada. Lease, you are live on talking than what's
going on?

Speaker 10 (47:30):
Hi there, I'm just this start off. I'm an atheist,
but I was wanting to ask you a question, just
your thoughts on something when it comes to religion. My
degree is in religious studies and I took this class
specifically about cult and new emerging religion, and when I

(47:51):
looked at the behaviors of religiosity and cult and then also,
you know, and I looked at more established, long term
religions like Islam or say Christianity, and it's pretty it's
not much different. And I was wondering if your thoughts
were do you think that sometimes? I wanted to ask,

(48:14):
do you think sometimes that, Like I personally believe that
every religion is a cult, but some are just more
socially accepted, Okay, wondering what your thoughts are on like
how how people are so quick to put labels on
newer religions like scientology or say Mormonism, even you know,

(48:37):
it's easy to say, well, that's a cult, but when
they look at some of the similar patterns that are
in cults that are that are also practiced in religion,
you know, it doesn't really make sense to be so
dismissive of something just because it's not as old and
not as established.

Speaker 1 (48:55):
Yeah. No, I think this is a pretty common criticism,
and I do. I do agree with that to some degree. Right,
Christian scholars and not just Christian scholars, but you know,
secular scholars all when talking about early Christianity, I mean,
they do describe early Christianity as a cult, and that's
not just their academic opinion. They're also using the historical

(49:16):
sources of other people contemporary with early Christianity at the time.
They also called Christianity a cult because it was. It
was a small group of people following a at the
time seen as esoteric group of teachings that were very
different from the culture around them in many particular ways.
In some ways they were similar, but in many ways different. So, yeah, Christianity,

(49:38):
at least at the beginning, definitely was a cult. If
we saw Christianity today, you saw Jesus walking around with
twelve dudes in the desert saying he was the Son
of God. None of us are bad nie saying that
that's a cult. But because we have all these established
ideas about Christianity and its history, we don't really see
it that way, you know. So, but you know, when
they're also describing as a cult, they're trying to use
it in a scholarly term. They're not necessarily associating it

(50:01):
with the pejoratives, although the pejorative term kind of still
applies with early Christianity and still kind of does today.
I mean, Christianity definitely enables people to do things that
they otherwise normally wouldn't do. We just talked to Benji
who just called previously, who said God was right and
killing millions of people. He wouldn't say that it's millions,
but you know, millions of people in a flood, because
he's God. That's not something that you know, in a vacuum,

(50:25):
any of us will probably ever say. But Christianity kind
of tells us that this is okay. And so, you know,
we started to defend it. But like, you know, what
about people's workplaces. You could say that you do things
for work, or you do things you talk to customers
in a way that you normally wouldn't because you're getting
paid to do it. Is that occult because you're being
enabled in a way, you know, like a cult as

(50:46):
a word sort of gets lost a little bit in
its potency with how we describe stuff. So I'm very
sensitive to the word. I try not to use it
too often, although I will use it on occasion to
describe things. It's because of those pejoratives and because of
the sort of differences in how people use it, uh
where I I don't always employ it but but is

(51:10):
Christianity a cult? Certainly early Christianity was whether you want
to describe broad spots of Christianity, I mean, Christianity is
is extremely wide in its beliefs and its practices, so
it becomes much harder to defend it as a useful
term in that sense. But that's that's my I don't
know pontification on it. What do you think, Kelly, Yeah, I.

Speaker 2 (51:32):
Was thinking to myself that it depends on a lot
on how you how you're what kind of definition you're
using for a cult, and I I my my death,
Like there's the bite model, which are quite I'm sure
if you're a scholar of this you know what that is.
But in the back of my head, and like, I'm
not a sociologist, a psychologist, any an anthropologist or anything
like that. But in the back of my head, I

(51:54):
always thought of a cult as being over excessive worship,
that is, controlling your everyday life behaviors. Right, So when
I look at like, say a person who's going to
the Lutheran church on Sunday and might even be living
by some of those ideals of the living by some
of the ideals they learn in church on Sunday. I
don't see them as a cult follower, you know, because

(52:16):
it's it's not over excessive and they're not letting the
church run their entire life. So to me, that's not
a cult. And now, like I said, I'm not qualified
to make that kind of a judgment. That's just the
way it clicks in my head, that definition does, So
I don't I don't look at as a cult.

Speaker 10 (52:32):
You see cultsmore as like fanaticism kind of thing, as
opposed to.

Speaker 2 (52:37):
You know what, like somebody somebody in the Jokers while
just mentioned in the chat that they that you could
call neo Nazis a cult, and yeah, I can kind
of agree with that. That's you know, more controlling of
the members' lives and stuff.

Speaker 10 (52:48):
So yeah, there are political ideologies that are that are
called it's still an ideology, that's right exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
that's just I wanted to like kind of have like,
I do agree with you your viewpoint. And I think
that a lot of Christians, a lot of people don't

(53:08):
take into account that the early Christians were not really
called Christians. They were seen as a cult, like they
were seen as radical, fringe Jewish people who were a
danger to traditional mainstream Judaism in the first and second century,
which is why they were under persecution. But yeah, I

(53:29):
think I think it's I just I just think it's
it's interesting the whole talk about how religion is structured
and all that, and I just wanted to know your opinion,
that's all.

Speaker 1 (53:39):
Yeah, yeah, I mean that's their takes, you know. Like,
I think cult is such an overused sort of word
it becomes hard to really nail down exactly what we
mean by it. So personally I tried un to employ
it as much. I've certainly said it before in descriptions
of things on the show. But to be clear, it's
not always useful in conversation because it does turn people off, right,

(54:00):
because people do associate cults with like fanaticism, like like
Kelly is saying. So if I was to talk to Christians,
I don't say, hey, you're a cult member. Did you
know on this? You know, right, that's not really useful
for me. But if we can point out that, hey,
this idea of what we have of cults isn't too
far off sometimes from organized religion and other sorts of
organized practices as well, I think maybe that can open

(54:20):
some doors in conversations with people, you know, if that's circle.
But otherwise, yeah, that's that. I'd say, that's what I got.
You got anything else for us?

Speaker 2 (54:30):
Lise, Hey, i'd be interested in here because since you're
studying it, you're the one with your take.

Speaker 10 (54:36):
So yeah, oh, I'm not studying it anymore. I finished
my degree, but yeah, a number of years ago. But
like my I kind of agree with you. I think
that I personally, I think all religions are technically cults,
but not just in the way of practice and formation.

(54:57):
But I think some just like by death phinician. But
I wouldn't say, you know that all Christian sects are
are cultish, I would probably, I would probably agree there
has to be a level of fanaticism involved course, before
we're quick to label. But I was just thinking along
that this is very interesting how there's a lot of

(55:18):
similarities between ideologies that we've grounded as worthy, justifiable religions
and new new emerging movements that people who are like,
I don't know, say Anglican or Catholics. I'd be like, oh,
as a cult. But it's like, do you know what
I mean? Like it just sounds weird. To hear someone,

(55:38):
to hear someone say that just because just because they
have a religion that's been grandfathered in as normal, and
doesn't you know the idea the I don't the concept
that you can't prove either ideology is not separate from
me from each other.

Speaker 1 (55:54):
I guess I agree. The dominant power groups the dominant
Sorry to interrupt you, I was just going to point
out that the dominant groups in a society do determine
what is radical or not.

Speaker 8 (56:05):
Right.

Speaker 1 (56:06):
When you hear about the look at the history of Japan,
and you'll see the very violent sort of defense they
had against Christians coming in. They saw them as radicals
affecting their traditional cultures and values and society. So you know,
they didn't have the most positive look towards missionaries.

Speaker 3 (56:22):
Right.

Speaker 1 (56:23):
But America is by and large a very Christian country,
and so those that defy the norms from Christian values
get seen as radical or cult like in some ways. So, yeah,
the dominant forces in any society are going to determine
what is fringe and what isn't. So I think I
think that's something worth pointing out. But at least we'll
go ahead and let you go today thanks so much.

Speaker 2 (56:45):
Okay, something our co regular hosts of the show and
producer of the show, Richard Gilliver, would love to have
you call back when he's on the show because he
wants to talk shop with you. This is the kind
of thing he studies that he studying as well. That's right,
I would love to have a conversation with you, and
implores you to call back when he's on.

Speaker 1 (57:06):
What you have at least?

Speaker 10 (57:06):
All right, aod Sunday.

Speaker 1 (57:08):
Oh did you say you had one more thing you
wanted to tell us?

Speaker 4 (57:10):
Oh?

Speaker 10 (57:10):
Yes, Oh yes, I was going to say. I just
wanted to add on just you know, as someone watched,
you know, watching from Canada, like when we were talking
about political ideologies, even just now. And you know, I
guess the thing is that there I have noticed some
cult like behavior with the whole Mega movement. And when

(57:31):
I say that, it's sorry, cult ish like behavior, I
should say. And the reason for that is a lot
of his supporters, you know, hardcore supporters are don't believe
anything he said, and even when shown contrary evidence, say no,
here's the here's the proof that he was wrong about that,

(57:53):
or there's the proof that he's just bullshitting you and
the that's fake news, that's not real, that's just time
by the Democrats, do you know what I mean? Like
it does like to me, a significant a dangerous cult
is when they have followers that no matter what evidence
you show them, uh, They're just going to keep basically worshiping.

Speaker 2 (58:17):
On our last callege, right Benji on our last college
showing how killing people was wrong, but it just couldn't
register in his head.

Speaker 1 (58:25):
You know, Yeah, I agree. It is a dangerous idea
to say that anyone is without fault and without without
criticism and should be defended at all costs. Right, That's
definitely something of value that we don't agree with on
this particular program. But our commentary on current political events

(58:47):
is limited by the fact that we are a five
oh one C three nonprofit organization. So I think I'll
leave it at that. But least I do want to
say thanks for that extra commentary, Thanks for everybody, Thanks
for you, for you for calling in, and I hope
to hear from you in some time. Like you said,
talking to Richard would be a great conversation there.

Speaker 2 (59:05):
I think really enjoyed your collees.

Speaker 1 (59:08):
Yeah, for sure, we did have some super chances we
should read. If krew could get those on screen, that
would be fantastic. I saw a couple flying up. One
is from Josh All, who said, just another agnostic atheist
doing his moral and ethical dudey getting five dollars. Thanks
so much, Josh, thanks so much for donating. That is great,
you know, Uh it's much appreciated. Uh, like you said,

(59:29):
nonprofit organization that runs.

Speaker 2 (59:31):
This this name shabab morality over there. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (59:37):
Hey, if that's your ethics, that's an more obligation. I
don't think the ACA is gonna tell you no.

Speaker 3 (59:43):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (59:43):
I don't speak for the a C A formal. I'm
just saying no, I probably wouldn't. But anyway, I think
we had another super chat as well from Josh L
gave two dollars placeholder for app pontifically Dan. The upgraded
Dan using pontifically as a nan is interesting. I wouldn't
be like pontific pontific Dan. But then you don't get

(01:00:06):
the lead part. So I get that pontifical Dan.

Speaker 2 (01:00:10):
There we go.

Speaker 1 (01:00:11):
That's a good one. That's me when I won't shut up. Yeah,
pontifical Dan. That's what if if I'm talking for too long. Crew,
can just change my name to pontifical Dan at the
bottom of the screen there, and I think that'd be
a good, good bit, uh, certainly better than subjectively done.
Can we retire subjectively don already? That's been going on
for gosh how long now? Oh yeah, too long? Too

(01:00:34):
long now, just kidding. I don't really mind it is.
It's funny either way, real quickly before we keep moving on,
I have to uh do some top five patronouns, That's
what I'm saying me. But Kelly, you should do the
top five patrons. I think I should do.

Speaker 2 (01:00:49):
The top five patrons.

Speaker 1 (01:00:50):
Yeah, do you have that open in front of you.

Speaker 2 (01:00:52):
I have the I have the document opened, but I'm.

Speaker 1 (01:00:55):
Not at the bottom of the page there. Okay, Now,
I found it awesome, awesome, So yeah, I could do that.

Speaker 2 (01:01:02):
Not that I not that I know what I'm doing.

Speaker 1 (01:01:05):
Great.

Speaker 2 (01:01:06):
So the top five patrons are number one oops, all Singularity.
I love that name. Two Dingleberry Jackson, a perennial favorite
name around here. Three Kleevi Helvetti. Four Ja Carleton. That's
a new one for me. Five Moldrid dmail Content. I
love that one. And an honorable mention to Jessica Copish

(01:01:31):
Coppish Copish, don't hate me for mispronouncing your name. Just
deal with it and thank you great keep you from me.

Speaker 1 (01:01:42):
Yes, thank you to everyone who gives to us on Patreon.
If you want to have your name read on the air,
you can consider supporting us a time. You're nott cc
slash Patreon thh for that. And so with that out
of the way, I think we should get to our
next call. This this is a fascinating one. Our call
screener says, our caller is talking about how scientology isn't

(01:02:05):
that bad and is very misunderstood. We have Janice calling
in from New York. Janis, you're live on talk. He
then very curious about this one.

Speaker 4 (01:02:16):
Oh my god, Hello, Hello, thank you for taking my call.

Speaker 11 (01:02:19):
I'm so excited to be talking to you. I've been
watching the show all morning.

Speaker 3 (01:02:23):
You know.

Speaker 11 (01:02:23):
The other caller was talking about cult and whether or
not Christianity as a cult, and it got me thinking,
I'm a scientologist and scientology is incredibly misunderstood. Like every
time you talk about cults, people are like scientology, scientology,
Tom Cruise, Yah, yeah, scientology, and like Honestly, I feel

(01:02:45):
like it is my job to help people understand what
scientology is really about, and like all the positive things
that scientology could kind of do for people, and like
how it's not really a cult.

Speaker 4 (01:02:57):
So I just kind of consider this, like, am I calling.

Speaker 3 (01:03:00):
A little bit?

Speaker 1 (01:03:01):
I guess Okay, I'm gonna be honest with you here.
I'm not trusting the vibes right now. I think that
you have the potential to be a troll caller because
not because of of of of anything other than the
fact that this is a pretty radical claim that you're
making here, and so I am I'm on high alert. Okay,
So I will let you make your case and we'll

(01:03:24):
how about to discuss it with you. But I'm just
letting you know. My signal's going off here, Kelly, your
signal's going off here.

Speaker 2 (01:03:30):
I'm I don't want to say my signals going off.
I'm a little cautious, but just just a little. And
I'm willing to hear hear what they have to say.

Speaker 1 (01:03:40):
So all right, Janis, go ahead.

Speaker 8 (01:03:42):
Oh my god, no, I don't listen.

Speaker 11 (01:03:44):
I don't blame you one bit. That's why I'm doing this,
That's why I feel like right, yeah, because like if
you will say, if you will like LBS.

Speaker 8 (01:03:52):
And you will like give me a minute, I'd be like, no,
thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:03:54):
LBS is a cult.

Speaker 11 (01:03:55):
But what I'm trying to help people understand is sciential.

Speaker 3 (01:03:59):
Like there's a lot of discourse about scientology. Right.

Speaker 11 (01:04:01):
People are like, it's crazy, you believe that there's like
multiple levels and that if you donate more money, blah
blah blah, it's like a Hollywood scam. But scientology has
honestly saved my life.

Speaker 8 (01:04:11):
Like, I'm not even gonna lie to you.

Speaker 11 (01:04:13):
Scientology changed my life for the more positive.

Speaker 8 (01:04:16):
And I grew up Catholic, like I you know, this
isn't my first religious experience, but I don't don't. Well,
you guys have any questions.

Speaker 1 (01:04:24):
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (01:04:24):
I've never done this before.

Speaker 1 (01:04:26):
Well that's fine. I've talked to I'll be honest. Over
the new years i've done this show, I've only talked
to a handful of Scientologist callers. You know, scientologists are
not super willing to talk to us, I think for
a number of reasons, but also you know they scientologists
are a pretty small segment of the population. I'll give
you my take on scientology and you tell me what

(01:04:46):
you think about this, and maybe we can start with that.
I think scientology is a man made religion. I think
scientology is basically entirely on the whims and writings of l.
Ron Hubbard, who had committed numerous scandals within his lifetime,
both personal and you know, affecting large amounts of people
outside of his personal life. I think he's been shown

(01:05:08):
on a number of occasions to have lied about many things.
I think he had issues of sexual misconduct. I think
he's had a pretty rough history and also was known to,
you know, have not the best character for those who
have spoken personally about his life as well. So I
think everything that has come from Scientology has sort of

(01:05:29):
been rooted in a really person who I would call bad, right.
I don't think Alan Hubbard is a good guy. So,
you know, it kind of leads me to think that
the rest of the religion doesn't have much to teach
me or anything about life, or really doesn't give me
any pause into thinking that it's true. It seems to
have a very traceable source that we can look at.

(01:05:52):
So that's my thoughts on scientology. What do you think
of that?

Speaker 11 (01:05:56):
I mean, you know what I think it converted me.
I think he did it. I don't think I'm a
scientologist anymore, because you're right, nobody's found Shelly Miscavigius. I've
got a lot to think about. That was a good point.

Speaker 1 (01:06:07):
Okay, wait again, I so the troll vibes are going
off here because it's very rare that anybody says I
make a single point and anybody is an instant d convert.
So tell me more about what you're thinking here, because
I'm I'm having a little bit of trouble. So now
you're sort of disavowing scientology entirely live on the air.

Speaker 4 (01:06:26):
I'm going to be honest.

Speaker 11 (01:06:27):
They had really good coupon the first time that I
stopt by the office.

Speaker 1 (01:06:31):
Okay, really good coupon. Yeah, it's unfortunate, Jans. You know,
I wish you were a real caller. Clearly you're not.
You're not being sincere with us right now. So I'm
going to go ahead and let you go. But s
thanks for I hope you had a good laugh and
enjoy the rest of your Sunday. So that's it. Yeah,
it's kind of obviously from the beginning, I think I.

Speaker 2 (01:06:50):
Was thinking that it was sucks that somebody spent that
much time with their life to just do that. Yeah,
you know, it wasn't even a good fake call.

Speaker 1 (01:07:02):
No, no, you can't. First of all, you can't. You
can't call somebody out for the way they sound just
on the air.

Speaker 2 (01:07:11):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:07:11):
But now in retrospect, it's easy to see it was
a little bit of put on with a voice and accent. Right.
But you know, I don't know what the point of
a call like that is, because if a scientologist did call,
and I would be interested in hearing why they believe
what they believe. Like I said, we you and I.
I think you've talked to them too, right, I think
you were on the call with me that time. That

(01:07:31):
it's only happened like twice on truth Wanted and uh
one that both interactions were very different from each other.
One is very serious with us about it, the other
one was a bit more thoughtful from what I recall.
But yeah, it's it's not it's not really something that
a scientologist will really do too often. So very disappointed.
I thought we'd have a good conversation, but you know,

(01:07:52):
this calling show. Whatever, we move on, Let's go to
our next caller. Here, we have interesting claims here. Let's
talk to you, GEO who wants to talk to us
from the U S g O, you are alive on
talk Heathen? What's up a little?

Speaker 3 (01:08:08):
Can you hear us?

Speaker 1 (01:08:09):
Hang on? I don't think I had them in right.
Let me let me try that again, GEO. I just
put you in the cute in our in our thing now. Sorry,
technical issue there, GEO.

Speaker 2 (01:08:19):
Can you hear us?

Speaker 4 (01:08:20):
Yes, I hear you.

Speaker 3 (01:08:20):
There we go.

Speaker 1 (01:08:21):
Okay, that was on me. Sorry about that. GEO, How
are you doing today? What do you want to talk
to us about?

Speaker 7 (01:08:26):
Well, I want to talk about near got experience at
m V and just how how that itself has become
for most religious people, even agnostic people like the Last Vine,
the last unknown you know on realm that he's people

(01:08:46):
from even considering being U being atheists? Right, And I
have to say myself, I have been a one raised Catholic.
I have basically any the classes where taught the Bible
so many masses I could literally recite them by heart. Okay,

(01:09:08):
so not like basically I was basically an atheist. So
I have honestly be anyone who is an atheist.

Speaker 1 (01:09:14):
At the end, I'm sorry to interrupt you if you
could just speak up just a little bit more, or
get a little bit closer to your microphone or your
phone so much.

Speaker 7 (01:09:23):
I'm sorry, I'm using your earpod. Yeah, so, so honestly, don't.

Speaker 1 (01:09:26):
Be sorry, just you know, help Yeah yeah, we're good.

Speaker 8 (01:09:29):
Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:09:31):
Gave me a little better yeah yeah yeah, thank you,
thanks so.

Speaker 12 (01:09:35):
Yeah so so yeah.

Speaker 8 (01:09:36):
So I honestly believe that that you know, no, no,
anyone who says they're an atheist, You cannot be a
true atheist unless you have honestly been theist or have
been deeply rooted in religion to understand what you're walking
away from.

Speaker 2 (01:09:53):
I have I have one good question to start off
with if we can started, how are you defining atheists?

Speaker 8 (01:09:58):
I would say there are different levels, right, They're basically
called agnostic idea, right. And I've seen something where they
said there's no possibility to be a true atheist complete
one hundred percent.

Speaker 2 (01:10:11):
What is a true atheist?

Speaker 8 (01:10:13):
Yeah, complete complete disbelief in any God or are there
any afterlife or anything like that. It's something that I
personally took many, many years to actually come to that conclusion.
And I'll put and the reason why is because I

(01:10:34):
was forced to do this because I myself personally had
in your death experience. Okay, I actually experienced what people
would basically normally become the most incredibly religious person in
the world. And I had to basically research this. I
needed to find out, I mean there was going to
be become the most.

Speaker 7 (01:10:53):
Advocate for religion or my religion, or.

Speaker 8 (01:10:57):
Or basically become anything.

Speaker 7 (01:10:59):
No way, you don't work.

Speaker 1 (01:11:01):
So just a summarize, So you are you do describe
yourself as an atheist now, but you did have a
near death experience that could have made you religious but
decidedly has not made you religious. Am I picking up
what you're putting down here?

Speaker 3 (01:11:14):
Yeah?

Speaker 8 (01:11:14):
Yeah, yeah, but but I have to basically tell you,
you know, understand what got me there, right. I just
want to know that I don't want to I don't
want to be a fake. I'm an atheist and and
and and is basically is BSD bok. I want you
to understand the background of who I am, where I
came from, and what happened to me that made me
force myself to confront this reality of what this is

(01:11:37):
or what I went through. Because what I went through,
I can honestly say a tear sometimes. That was the
most beautiful experience I ever had. I mean, I felt
a euphoria that I can't describe this day, and I
could not explain it. I mean, I mean, the best
analogy I could think of is, like, here's an analogy. Okay,
if if it's saying warm, you know you need a

(01:11:58):
hot or cold if you feel okay, let's say heat
is pain. Let's say colder is feeling good.

Speaker 3 (01:12:05):
Right.

Speaker 8 (01:12:06):
The way I felt was that it was so cold
it burn when I touched that light, when I touched
that orb whatever it was, I actually had to pull
myself away from itself.

Speaker 1 (01:12:16):
So good, I'm like, yeah, well, ye, Starry interrupt you
because you know, yeah, yeah, for the show here, right,
I just want to, you know, kind of keep things moving.
But I think what it sounds like is that you
had a really you know, personal experience. And I think, right,
I think this is sort of a a sort of
last frontier for a lot of Christians, because we do
know a lot more about science. We know more about

(01:12:36):
the world today than we have at any other point
in history, right, And so the more that we understand
the world, the more we're able to describe it using
naturalist terms, and and you know, understanding these sort of
natural processes and if and if we you know, we
we don't completely understand near death experiences, but we certainly
know more now than we have before. Right, But there's
still a lot of people that hold on to these experiences.

(01:12:59):
I mean, they even made that movie right, like Heaven
Is for Real, Right, you know, there's other ones that
are like it, where people talk about these experiences and
why they are used as a basis for people's religious beliefs.
Sometimes it's not even just Christianity. Sometimes it's some other
spiritual ideas. But to get the point, because they are
so subjective, and they are so personal, and they are
so you know, people who really have them do speak
to this conviction. So obviously this was an experience that

(01:13:21):
had some conviction for you. But I guess at this point,
you know, I'm curious to know you obviously had this conviction,
but you don't anymore. So what's the reason for that.

Speaker 8 (01:13:30):
Well, the reason for this was me trying to search
to find truth, trying to understand what I experienced because
this was so compelling, so real. I mean it basically
again just talking about brings me the tears. So I'm
trying not to talk about it because I don't want
to start crying.

Speaker 1 (01:13:50):
So but anyway, sure, I'm.

Speaker 8 (01:13:51):
Trying to think about it anymore because it basically it's
a very emotional thing that went through and it's so
real that, you know.

Speaker 7 (01:13:58):
Anyway, so what and.

Speaker 8 (01:14:00):
Then I'll plain to you why I've become atheist because
through my research I have found things online and actually
researched more. It's available, I was available on YouTube. Actually
a lot of my atheist journey is credited for some
people like Neil de grass type and he's a very
intelligent man and he speaks mes very well and well

(01:14:21):
I think he says, you know, is very compelling.

Speaker 4 (01:14:24):
Right.

Speaker 8 (01:14:24):
So one of the things he mentioned, I'll say, was
in the video where he said, hey, people say that, hey,
you know they had the near death experiences that they
floated in the room and okay, they saw these things
they see up top of the up there, what's going
on below? They see that body. I'm like, hey, well, hey,
how about we do this. We take a number and
put it on their chest and let's say, hey, what

(01:14:45):
number were we showing why you were out?

Speaker 3 (01:14:48):
Okay?

Speaker 8 (01:14:48):
Tell us what that number was. I mean, he makes
a valid point, right, Have there ever been anything like that? Well, well,
that actually was something like that. It's called twelve was
the Aware Project Aware Project study by some Lenny Samparnia.
If you Google it, search it, you'll see it. And actually,
what's strange is that that is that's very.

Speaker 3 (01:15:08):
Small number of hits.

Speaker 8 (01:15:09):
I think, I think, honestly, I think that you that
even YouTube has probably even lowered the algorithm to not yet.

Speaker 1 (01:15:16):
Fine, I'm sorry. I think I'm gonna be honest with you. Well,
I think we're getting a little off track here, and
we're getting towards the tail end of the show, and
I want to try to get at least one more
caller in, So I do want to try to put
a bow on this call if we can. So, you know,
I appreciate you sharing your experience with us, and obviously
this is a very intense, sort of personal, meaningful experience

(01:15:38):
for you. I'm really glad that you decided to show
truth as priority in this right, because there's a lot
of people that take these experiences and say, ah, well
I can rest on my god belief now, right because
I had this and that was enough for me. But
but it sounds like it wasn't. Uh, it wasn't the
only thing for you. It sounds like you had to
do a little bit more work in order to figure

(01:15:59):
out what was going on. So kudos to you for
doing that. Was there anything else you want to say
before we wrap things up? Sorry to cut you off.

Speaker 8 (01:16:06):
Yeah, yeah, So so yeah, basically aware study, we should
look into that. And the second thing is called glock,
which is basically from air from air from airport pilots
that have experienced the exact same thing as people in
your experience, that the whole tunnel vision and everything. I mean,
they literally have they mistakenly even again they stumbled upon
discovery and nobody's.

Speaker 3 (01:16:28):
Talking about it.

Speaker 8 (01:16:29):
Okay, So I just want people to stand google g
lock and aware study. It will basically change your life
in actually seeing what what that that near The experience
is just nothing more. And I'll use the term it's
the last dream.

Speaker 3 (01:16:42):
Before you die.

Speaker 8 (01:16:43):
There's a it's basically a spike in in in brain activity,
you know. And the study basically has this the debunked
people flowing air. So just saying people should to look
into that. Aware to a g lock that's LLC.

Speaker 1 (01:16:57):
Yeah, thanks, so I appreciate it. You have a great
rest of your Sunday, and thanks for calling in about this.

Speaker 2 (01:17:03):
Really I'll check that out too.

Speaker 1 (01:17:06):
Yeah. You know, normally when people say, hey, google this
at the end of the show, it's usually something I'm
not Usually something I'm at odds with. This isn't something
I'm at odds with.

Speaker 7 (01:17:17):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:17:19):
Yeah, it sounds like it's it's more up my alley,
but you know, not to be biased, I haven't actually
seen this thing. Maybe it's funk. I don't know. I'm
willing to give the benefit of the dout here because
it seems to have called it. I think there's somebody
that's in their screening room right now that you really
wanted to talk to, And so I want to talk
to the current caller that's in our queue.

Speaker 2 (01:17:36):
Right now, because I know maybe we can squeeze two in.

Speaker 1 (01:17:41):
May cruse cool with that. We can squeeze two in
at the end, so we don't have a whole lot
of time. Real quick, let me do some super chance
real quick. I saw one from Ann Johnson who gave
two dollars thanks so much, and Johnson for another two
dollars I don't think there was a message attached for that,
and if there is another message, let me know now, crew,
and I can put it on the screen there because
I'm not seeing it in the notes, but I will. Yeah,
there's that two dollars. And if there is another one,

(01:18:04):
yell gosh al who said gave you as yellow card
for Paul in the comments flagrant puns. Thanks so much
for commenting on that. And with that, Okay, let's get
to our next call here and see if we can
squeeze two more because we are running at the time.
We got the Deepest Hell calling in from Oregon, The
Deepest Hell. You are live on talk Ethan. What did

(01:18:25):
you want to talk to us about today?

Speaker 4 (01:18:26):
Hi?

Speaker 3 (01:18:27):
Troy, Hey guys, Hey, how are you guys doing today?

Speaker 4 (01:18:30):
I got I got a little topic.

Speaker 12 (01:18:32):
I wanted to just touch base with you guys on
and just maybe get your impression. I have kind of
looked into epistemology from a physiologic standpoint, so I myself,
I'm a physician, there's a little bit of background. But
what I've found is that if you're gonna make realistic decisions,
healthy decisions sound epistemology, you have to have a certain

(01:18:57):
internal physiology, and so I'm just looking for ways to
promote what I would call parasympathetic physiology, the cool, calm,
comfortable type of physiology where you have access to your faculties,
where you have access to resources and good discernment, good
decision making. What I see with THEIS often is this

(01:19:20):
uh filter that's always applied to them, a burning fear
of hell, a mortal trauma that's actually going on in
their head that they may or may not even be aware.
But I think you guys can sort of see the point,
which is, if you're gonna, you know, weigh things effectively,
if you're going to consider things efficiently and thoroughly, you

(01:19:42):
have to be at a place where you're kind of
comfortable and you're not under duress, you're not under threats
of you know, mortal burning and health fire if you
mean so, just just what are your thoughts about that?
And how do we engage theis. It's it's hard sometimes,
especially with how completely dishonest I regard apologists, It's hard

(01:20:06):
to engage them without having a little bit of should
I see it frustration or kind of transferms or anger
back at them for simply disregarding what I would consider
pre sound reasoning. But he talks about what's going on.

Speaker 1 (01:20:21):
M This is interesting, Kelly, you go first on this.
What do you think you're.

Speaker 2 (01:20:25):
Gonna make me go first?

Speaker 1 (01:20:26):
Yeah, because I've been going first a lot today, you
should go.

Speaker 2 (01:20:29):
I do agree that you can make better, better decisions
when you're in a better frame of mind, that that is,
without a doctor.

Speaker 1 (01:20:38):
I agree with so.

Speaker 2 (01:20:40):
And I don't know if this is like a permanent
physiological condition that you could put yourself into or if
you're talking about a temporary one. One of my old instructors,
many many many years ago told me that whenever you
have to make a decision, and you have to make
it now, at least always take ten deep breasts before
you make that decision. You can to make your brain

(01:21:01):
and think a little bit better. And it's one of
the best pieces of advice I've ever gotten. So, but yeah,
I think I totally agree with what you're saying. I
don't know what else to add to it, though.

Speaker 1 (01:21:13):
So, Yeah, I guess I think of a similar boat.
It's like, yeah, we have to learn things when we're kids,
regardless of whether we want to or not. Sometimes that
includes things that we can't rationally think through right. I
think as atheists, a lot of us would say religious
beliefs are one of those things, right, because we can't
fully know. I didn't know everything that was in the Bible.
I didn't know exactly what things said. I have a

(01:21:35):
lot of things read for me, especially if I'm looking
at the King James version, I don't know what's going on,
and so I have to kind of do what adults
tell you to do, and that can affect your ability
to critically reason and critically think about things. Some people
think through the stuff better than others. There's atheists that
talk about how they didn't believe in this stuff since
they were kids. But you know, I was an adults
before I became an atheist. I had to go to

(01:21:57):
college first, at least do some college to think things
through on this. So I think different psychologies might be
susceptible to some beliefs over others. I don't doubt that.
I wish we could all live in a world where
we're all stoic and we're all thinking things clearly, and
you know, everything's great. That that's not the world that
we live in, So it does make it more difficult,
doesn't it.

Speaker 12 (01:22:17):
Yeah, I mean I appreciate what you said, Like you
got out of the echo chamber, you got into college,
you know, your life started to settle down, and then
you got to kind of a little better ability to critically.

Speaker 3 (01:22:28):
Analyze what you were thinking.

Speaker 12 (01:22:30):
But it just it just goes to show from a
theistic standpoint, how important it is to get in that
one lifelong special pleading early before it can be rationally examined.

Speaker 3 (01:22:42):
You know what I mean.

Speaker 12 (01:22:43):
If you can just kind of make a presupposition or
an axiomatic, Hey, God exists and he's up there, and
it just never gets questioned until you know, your life
settles down, your kids, you have a job, and now
you're relaxing and you can kind of think, wait a minute,
you know what I mean?

Speaker 3 (01:23:02):
So yeah, figured out.

Speaker 1 (01:23:04):
I think we all recognize the power of teaching the
kids while they're young about certain stuff. I mean, to
be fair, That's why things like drag book readings have
become thoughtular the way they are to sort of normalize
folks that are in the drag community and show that hey,
they're people too, and that you know, they're willing to
entertain folks and stuff. Some people complain about that kind
of stuff because oh, you're interacting with kids and teaching

(01:23:26):
them that this stuff is normal, And I would say, yeah,
that's part of it, right, definitely, So you know, it's
definitely something that I think everybody tries to fight for
the attention of kids, right for sure?

Speaker 3 (01:23:36):
For sure.

Speaker 12 (01:23:37):
Yeah, And I feel like the fight or flight response
is so dramatic and intoxicating. It gets your attention all
the time. And these days we have just a certain
level of panic. We have social media, all this stimulation
and stuff. It's very hard to get to a point

(01:23:58):
where you're centered and calm and can rationally examine things.
And I think that that's so important. I mean, these
days it's probably worse than ever ever since, even before
the pandemic. Just things are just wildly out of control.

Speaker 1 (01:24:11):
Sometimes I agree. I worry about particularly older folks in
my family because I basically grew up on the internet, right,
But like you know, folks who maybe don't check Facebook
every day but still check it, and these ai images
that come out and these fake stories that come out,
and it's like, how do we effectively you know, evaluate
this stuff? And it's only going to get harder. I
don't know. More and more people are trying to develop

(01:24:32):
tools and better ways to, you know, sort of mitigate
these problems, and I say, more power to them. We
should definitely be having more conversations about it. But for now,
I am going to go ahead and let you go.
Thank you so much, deepest talent for calling in. Hopefully
we gave you.

Speaker 2 (01:24:47):
Yeah, thank you for calling tro It was good talking
to you man.

Speaker 1 (01:24:50):
Have a great rest of your weekend. Oh, I think
he's got something else, but I hit the drop button
before he was good anyway, and I'll say definitely even
the comments. But trying to wrap things up here because
we do we are technically at the end of the show.
But I want to get to one more caller because
this is a call you wanted with the person you've
wanted to talk to you.

Speaker 2 (01:25:08):
I have been encouraging him to call in.

Speaker 1 (01:25:10):
So yeah, real quickly, we'll get the super chance going.
I saw a couple more that came in during that call,
so if we can get those on the screen here
and I could read them, and then we'll take the
next call. One was from Alec. Julian gave ten dollars
and said, I don't know how you do this every week.
I hope the ACA buy you guys a beer with
this money. Boy, let me tell you, I tell you

(01:25:31):
you hear that? Hear that?

Speaker 3 (01:25:33):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:25:36):
Hey, that's the people. The people are speaking. Okay, let's
listen to them. I'm just saying, thanks so much for that.
And I saw one more if we could get that
on the screen as well. Yeah from Josh all that
says a second vote. But for Tube beverages need to
make it through the Jewish hours. I agree. Yes, this

(01:25:57):
is also true. This is also true. Thanks so much
for the super chat. That's great stuff today, folks. And
let's get this last caller. We have a fireman calling
in from Texas. Fireman, you are alive on talking then,
thanks for calling today. What's up?

Speaker 2 (01:26:15):
Before we get started? Okay, we get started. We're going
to make some ground rules here, firemen. Oh, we are
not going to do insults and we are not going
to put words in other people's mouths. Do we understand
that right? Okay? Now, it says that you want burden
of proof that God does not exist. Now, fireman, if
you want that, you're going to have to talk to

(01:26:36):
somebody who doesn't believe that God doesn't exist, and that's
neither Dan or I. So I don't know where we're
going to go with this conversation.

Speaker 3 (01:26:43):
Well, first of all, I'd like to say, it's good
to finally talk to you, mister Kelly.

Speaker 1 (01:26:47):
Thanks, am in a man. So there's been some internet
Internet talkings, internet talkings to each other before. This just
has some context. And Kelly has asked fireman to call
in before, and now fireman is calling in. So this
is it, this is this is happening. It's recorded for posterity.
So fireman, go ahead, you have the floor. What do

(01:27:08):
you got for us?

Speaker 3 (01:27:10):
I'll say this. I think you kind of jumped the
gun on what my argument is.

Speaker 2 (01:27:16):
So I was just going by what this is called
the yeah key.

Speaker 1 (01:27:19):
You're excited, you're excited, you're getting into this. Let's say
a fireman has to say.

Speaker 3 (01:27:24):
Yeah, well it was halfway right. But what I'm talking
about is pretty much the reverse of the burden of proof.
And I call it the proof of Burt for that
exact reason. And here's my thing. You know, as personally
as a belief, I can't speak for any other Christian,
any other belief They're are things. Put it this way,
I'm not a stubborn I'm not like the average Christian
that says, oh, I believe.

Speaker 1 (01:27:45):
In God no matter what.

Speaker 9 (01:27:47):
As for me, there are some things that can happen
or that you can do that can sway my belief
or change it to become an atheist or not believe
in God.

Speaker 3 (01:27:55):
And that's what my argument is. That's why I call
it the proof of burden because it's actually the opposite.
I'm actually putting it on you, but personally for me.
So and I believe the King James Version Bible. I'll
get that out there first. So my my defense is
what I'm arguing for is the is the King James
Version Bible and not for any other belief or any
other religion. I just wanted to get that out the

(01:28:17):
one then I'll go.

Speaker 2 (01:28:18):
So that was that was real confusing. What exactly is
it that you want?

Speaker 1 (01:28:22):
Yeah, I'm a little confused. So what what is on
the burden of proof? Is on atheist to do what?

Speaker 3 (01:28:27):
All right?

Speaker 9 (01:28:28):
Okay, I'll break it down, and I like I say,
I call it the proof of bird.

Speaker 3 (01:28:32):
Y'all thought it the burden of proof?

Speaker 4 (01:28:34):
All right?

Speaker 2 (01:28:34):
Just try to brak it down in the one quick
sense of a three year old can understand for.

Speaker 3 (01:28:38):
Me, which is great.

Speaker 9 (01:28:39):
I just wanted to let y'all understand that first before
I go into it.

Speaker 1 (01:28:42):
All right, fair enough, thanks for that context.

Speaker 4 (01:28:44):
Okay, Now, I believe the Bible.

Speaker 3 (01:28:46):
Now, according to the Bible.

Speaker 9 (01:28:48):
God only created life on earth. Some people disagree with that,
but you'll have to show me in the Bible with
with with where it says not it doesn't. In the
Book of Genesis, God records what he created. Now in
the story of the creation, there's no story of an
uh alien life, which you agree.

Speaker 1 (01:29:06):
Well, fireman, I'm sorry to do this. Yes, it's quit.

Speaker 2 (01:29:09):
I don't agree with you because they talk about the
Nephelim in the Bible, and I would consider that alien life.

Speaker 1 (01:29:14):
So yeah, there is that. But I would take this
a slightly different direction, Kelly, because I know it's it's
it's annoying when you're giving your premise and somebody's asking
a questions. But why should I care about what the
Bible says at all? You're starting your premise here with
the Bible says this, Why should the Bible matter to me?

Speaker 9 (01:29:31):
Here's the thing, man, The nothing of you speak of
that was still created on earth, I'm talking about anything outside.

Speaker 2 (01:29:37):
Yeah, let's let's let's go back to Dan's question. Why
don't you answered Dan's question first?

Speaker 3 (01:29:42):
Okay, go ahead, go ahead.

Speaker 1 (01:29:44):
Questions. You're you're saying the Bible says this, and I'm saying,
why should I care what the Bible has to say exactly?

Speaker 9 (01:29:50):
That's why I let you know that I believe in
the King James version Bible and we can have a
discussion from there.

Speaker 1 (01:29:56):
Understand, I understand you believe it, and I'm wondering why
why should I sbody believe that the King James version
of the Bible tells true things like like God created
the earth and things like that are allegedly true things.

Speaker 3 (01:30:08):
So just if you can hear my argument out completely,
maybe we can come to and understand because I wasn't
quite fiendy.

Speaker 1 (01:30:16):
Well, I understand, but the first terms of your argument
relied on you on believing that something in the Bible
that was said was is true and that it's describing
true things, and that hasn't been established for me. So
I need to know how I can know the Bible
says true things before we can even keep going with
the argument, because otherwise it doesn't matter, all right, I'll finish.

Speaker 3 (01:30:35):
Breaking his own.

Speaker 9 (01:30:36):
Basically, the Bible says.

Speaker 2 (01:30:37):
That we don't want to know what it says. We
want to know why it's true.

Speaker 1 (01:30:41):
Yeah, why is the Bible true in any way, way, shape,
or form.

Speaker 2 (01:30:45):
Not what it says? Why is it true?

Speaker 9 (01:30:48):
If you at least give me a minute to break
down what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (01:30:51):
You know because you because you keep starting well with
the Bible says. We don't care what the Bible says,
but we want to know why about why? Hey stop
for a minute, fireman. We want to know why you
think the Bible is true and why we should accept
it as true before we go anywhere else. We don't
want to know what it says. We want to know
why you think it's true and why we should accept

(01:31:14):
it as true. Do you understand the question?

Speaker 9 (01:31:16):
Okay, well i'll deliver it to you in that work.
First of all, what I'm saying is no aliens have
visited to the earth.

Speaker 2 (01:31:24):
That's not answering the question.

Speaker 3 (01:31:26):
You're trying to make me pose the argument in your fashion,
and that's fine. Okay. What I'm saying is nothing, no
aliens have God said.

Speaker 9 (01:31:35):
But he created that's what I believe. Nothing has happened
outside of what he said that he created. And I'm
telling you that aliens, something like aliens.

Speaker 3 (01:31:43):
Would make me not believe the Bible, and I would
not believe that it's a god. If you understand my argument,
see that, you know you didn't let me get to
my argument. Now you may understand what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (01:31:56):
Nothing to do with why the Bible is true and
why we should accept it as true.

Speaker 1 (01:32:00):
Yeah, why did aliens have to do with whether the
Bible is true or not? I guess I could see why,
like aliens kind of kind of contradict a little bit
what the Bible would say. There's some Christian theologians that
have gotten around that. But like, I still don't know
why you believe the Bible is true. That hasn't been
explained to you.

Speaker 2 (01:32:21):
You didn't, No, you did not. You just said that
if aliens were true, I wouldn't believe the Bible. But
you didn't tell Benji, Benji, Benji.

Speaker 1 (01:32:29):
That's not Benji.

Speaker 2 (01:32:30):
But yeah, oh, I'm sorry, Sorry, fireman, fireman, you're not listening, okay,
you just keep talking and you're not listening to what
we're saying or either you're you're not listening, or you're
not hearing us, or you're purposely not hearing us. Yeah, okay,
now we are you. You are saying the Bible is true,
that the things in the Bible are true. You're basing

(01:32:52):
your your argument here on the fact that the Bible
is true. Dan and I don't know that the Bible
is true. So we want you to tell us why
you think it is true and why we should think
it is true as well. That's all we want to know.
Nothing else. If you start with something else, I'm going
to cut you off.

Speaker 3 (01:33:12):
If you give me a minute to speak, I will
tell you why I believe.

Speaker 2 (01:33:15):
Okay, well I have when you haven't done it yet.

Speaker 3 (01:33:19):
No, you didn't. You cut me off every time I start.

Speaker 1 (01:33:22):
You cut you off because you keep saying, well, the Bible, well,
the Bible says God created things, and like that doesn't
tell me anything, you know, like we we have to
be able to look outside of the Bible. You keep
using what the Bible says.

Speaker 2 (01:33:36):
All right, here we go, Benja again, it's all you.

Speaker 3 (01:33:41):
Yeah, well here, thing I believe.

Speaker 9 (01:33:44):
That it's true because everything they said was created is
I can see nothing outside of what it said was created.

Speaker 3 (01:33:50):
I can't see.

Speaker 9 (01:33:51):
And I'm giving you an example, like an alien.

Speaker 3 (01:33:53):
And I told you because I believe what the Bible
says in the Book of genis and what that all
that God created. I'm giving you an example. If an
alien visits the earth, I would denounce God and burn
my Bible.

Speaker 4 (01:34:06):
That's what I'm telling you. I would believe that it's not.

Speaker 3 (01:34:08):
True because now something has happened outside of what those
scriptures saying, something ordinary. And I'm just giving you an example.

Speaker 9 (01:34:15):
To see if you can understand where I'm coming from.

Speaker 2 (01:34:17):
Okay, So so you believe, Yeah, you believe the Bible
is true because you can see the things that are
said in the Bible. The Bible.

Speaker 3 (01:34:28):
Yeah, I'm going specifically a story of creation.

Speaker 2 (01:34:32):
Okay, okay, all right, let's wait.

Speaker 1 (01:34:34):
An angel. You know, the Bible says angels are created.
Have you seen an angel?

Speaker 3 (01:34:38):
Well, have I seen an angel? No?

Speaker 1 (01:34:40):
Yeah, there are to be clear. So that's one thing
at least the Bible says it's created that I haven't seen.

Speaker 2 (01:34:48):
So what's that books that described creation?

Speaker 4 (01:34:51):
You might note the I mean the angel is written about.

Speaker 3 (01:34:56):
So if I've seen the angel, it wouldn't be shot,
it wouldn't be make me swear.

Speaker 1 (01:35:00):
But the fact that we haven't seen it doesn't that
give you pause, though, Right, But you're saying everything you
but you made the claim that everything that the Bible
says has been created you've seen, but you haven't seen
an angel. So that's not true, right, because you haven't
seen an angel, so you haven't seen everything the Bible
said has been created.

Speaker 9 (01:35:17):
My argument is, if something exists outside of what God says.

Speaker 3 (01:35:21):
He created, then I would believe that the Bible is alive.

Speaker 1 (01:35:23):
My argument is SI, but surely, surely, though, surely, surely,
there must be other ways in which we could show
that the Bible might be false, right, because there's other
books that I could write a book right now that says, hey,
electricity exists, and rainbows exist, and horses exist, and you know,

(01:35:44):
all these things exist. And that doesn't mean everything else
in the book is true, right, just because I'm describing
some things that exist. So I is that a good
criteria to know if something is true or not.

Speaker 3 (01:35:55):
That's why I let you know from the beginning of
the conversation that I was argument for the King James
version and not any other religions.

Speaker 2 (01:36:01):
I can't doesn't matter what version that it doesn't matter.

Speaker 3 (01:36:06):
Book, and.

Speaker 1 (01:36:11):
Hey, keep going, Kelly was interrupting you, please, I was
just saying.

Speaker 3 (01:36:16):
If it isn't any other text, you would have to
look up and show me or I would have to
google it and see, because I don't know. I'm only
I'm only arguing for the King James version Bible and
what it says, and you're talking about what any other
book can say. We would have to show me in
the book where it says it talks about what was
created and what was not, and then I would have
to see if it adds up to what I see

(01:36:36):
in everyday life. You mean, like you said, I can
see that he say he created the water. I can
see that he say he created the sky. I can
see the things that he created other than what man
took and made himself through technology like cars, planes, telephone.
You can say, oh God and that, but they got
the materials from the things that God says he created.
And I'm saying anything outside of the ordinary of what

(01:36:58):
God says he created would sway my faith and make
me become an eighties and believe that there is no guy.
And I would know that's what separates me from the
so called.

Speaker 2 (01:37:08):
Okay, can I ask one quick question?

Speaker 3 (01:37:11):
Not wait, but I'm giving an open ear for you
to convince me through those things.

Speaker 2 (01:37:16):
Okay, Can I ask one quick question? If the Quran
describes creation the same way as reality, and it does,
why don't you believe in the Quran instead? Since it
does the same thing that does.

Speaker 4 (01:37:30):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:37:30):
I would have to see what the Koran is saying.

Speaker 2 (01:37:33):
Wait, wait, let's say it does. Let's say it does.
You read it, you realize it describes creation? Would you
just always? Would you become a Muslim and give up Christianity?
Or what I mean? If both books describe the same
thing but in different ways, So which which one are
you going to decide is true?

Speaker 3 (01:37:50):
If it could be proven, if it could be proven
through that, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:37:53):
Okay, we'll prove it.

Speaker 1 (01:37:54):
Shirley, Fireman, You've went to school, and like you learned
about like, uh, like when Hesiod wrote a the Titans, right,
and how the Titans and Uranus, you know, like they're
part of created the earth and stuff, and then you
know the other gods came in and stuff. Right, there's
a creation myth in all of those Greek myths as well. Right,
I'm sure you've heard of some of that, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:38:15):
Right, like something like Goose and Ercy Leans.

Speaker 1 (01:38:19):
Right, and those myths they described creation as well.

Speaker 3 (01:38:22):
You say they describe Christ.

Speaker 1 (01:38:24):
No, not Christ's creation. Right, There's plenty of myths that
described creation. Okay, Okay, you know, but like we don't
necessarily think those is true, right, certainly, I don't. I
don't think you do.

Speaker 3 (01:38:35):
No, I don't. We agree on that. Agree.

Speaker 1 (01:38:38):
But but the thing is, they describe creation, so does
the Bible. So what's the difference between those two. How
do we know that one is more true than the other?

Speaker 2 (01:38:46):
Yeah? Right?

Speaker 3 (01:38:47):
How can we know actually know that any book is true?
To be honest?

Speaker 2 (01:38:53):
Do you want to go there?

Speaker 3 (01:38:54):
Yeah? Yeah, That's the reason why I'm not like the
average Christians that that stuff. We I'm willing, but I'm
just telling you that I'm willing to to to not
believe in the guy.

Speaker 2 (01:39:06):
Okay, all rights to happen. I just gave environment, stop permitting.
You've talked quite a bit. It's a it's my turn.

Speaker 8 (01:39:15):
Now.

Speaker 2 (01:39:15):
I've been key go for Kevin. I've been patiently waiting. Okay,
Now we've got to that point where you realize that
what's in the book might not be proof that the
book is true. Correct. Now, let's go back to the
original question, why do you believe the Bible is true?
Since the excuse you gave us before it doesn't count anymore.
We've already gone through that. Why is the Bible? Why

(01:39:38):
do you think the Bible is true? And why should
Dan and I believe it as well?

Speaker 9 (01:39:42):
Well, I'll tell you as much.

Speaker 3 (01:39:44):
I can't. I can't. I can't convert you, but I'll.

Speaker 2 (01:39:48):
Say this, not asking you to convert me. I'm asking
you to show me why the Bible is true.

Speaker 1 (01:39:53):
Yeah, just your own beliefs.

Speaker 9 (01:39:54):
Well, I think, okay, great, if you would let me say,
that's what I.

Speaker 3 (01:39:58):
Wanted to hear for you.

Speaker 2 (01:39:59):
So you can't we you talk, dude, Well you have
talked a lot. You've talked like five times more than
I have, Sir.

Speaker 4 (01:40:07):
You said that.

Speaker 9 (01:40:08):
I'll tell you in my own opinions, so deffault. You
can't cut me off.

Speaker 3 (01:40:12):
Correct, you gotta let me speak. I can do anything.

Speaker 1 (01:40:17):
Reason we want. We'll let you talk. I know we
can from whatever.

Speaker 9 (01:40:21):
Yeah, go ahead, Yo, in the middle of while I'm talking,
I mean, what can I do about this, sir.

Speaker 1 (01:40:26):
No, you you've had the floor several times now that
that's not that's not reasonable. But go ahead. You were
giving it to you again.

Speaker 9 (01:40:33):
So please basically, sir, because the world continues as it is.

Speaker 3 (01:40:38):
I haven't seen anything where the.

Speaker 2 (01:40:39):
Bible is true because the world continues as well.

Speaker 1 (01:40:42):
Hold on, Kelly, let him cook, let them cut, let
me trek.

Speaker 3 (01:40:44):
This something is true? Oh just fake? Everything is just fake, sir.
Something is true?

Speaker 8 (01:40:49):
Why?

Speaker 3 (01:40:50):
Because the world we have seen nothing out.

Speaker 1 (01:40:52):
Of the ordinary.

Speaker 3 (01:40:53):
No aliens visited. We haven't seen anybody lived be four
hundred years old.

Speaker 9 (01:40:57):
And so you thought I was just talking about aliens.
I'm talking about across the board.

Speaker 3 (01:41:01):
Nothing, nothing out of the ordinary has changed.

Speaker 2 (01:41:04):
I don't know what the we're talking about.

Speaker 1 (01:41:08):
Wait, wait, hold on, wait, but the Bible does explicitly
say people live to be like eight hundred nine hundred
years old sometimes.

Speaker 3 (01:41:17):
Can't that be possible? Now?

Speaker 9 (01:41:18):
And I hear all it is, Oh, because of the
human decom composition breaks down.

Speaker 2 (01:41:24):
And I knew you were gonna love this one, Dan.

Speaker 1 (01:41:27):
Yeah, you're yeah, you're you're giving.

Speaker 3 (01:41:29):
Me drivel that I hear about why mankind can't be
why we can't over why can't we overcome the boundaries
that God has fit? You keep talking about why I
believe in God, that's why, because we can't overcome.

Speaker 9 (01:41:42):
The boundaries that God has sit. One of the boundaries
is there's no.

Speaker 1 (01:41:45):
Life outside of the earth, though, because that God, God
has given us well, allegedly, God has given us diseases
and stuff, right, and we have been able to overcome
many diseases. Cancer has been circumvented in many circumstances through
use of chemotherapy and other sorts of medical treatment. No,

(01:42:06):
people aren't living forever, maybe not living four hundred years,
but the average lifespan of the American citizen is far
greater than any in ancient Judea or any other part
of the world at that time. Right, Like, people are
living for for much longer periods of time, and advancements
haven't made in human health. So I don't understand your
point there.

Speaker 3 (01:42:26):
Yep, there's still not a boundary, and there's plenty more
boundary So I could pull anything out that. Why can't
you just walk outside the skin? The sride to the sky?

Speaker 2 (01:42:34):
Now, why why can't you talk without yelling at us?

Speaker 3 (01:42:37):
Wait?

Speaker 1 (01:42:37):
Why would wait?

Speaker 3 (01:42:40):
Wait?

Speaker 1 (01:42:40):
So I have to walk and fly into the sky
in order to disprove Christianity. I mean, I can take
a plane.

Speaker 4 (01:42:47):
Ordinary that don't do something that God said you can't do.

Speaker 3 (01:42:50):
And I'm talking about the Bible with God say, I'm
not talking about no other book.

Speaker 1 (01:42:54):
Then I'm talking to you from across the country right now,
using electrical signals and machines far beyond your eyes. Understanding,
let's be real, you or are not gonna be building
computers from scratch. I would say that's that's pretty cool.
You know, like this idea is a little bit arbitrary.
Don't you think you can kind of just choose any
limit you want. We have an idea. We have a

(01:43:14):
description for this as atheists, we call this the God
of the Gaps argument, right, And it's this idea that, oh,
here's this other sort of boundary, this other thing that
we're pushing. And as soon as humanity is able to
push it and say actually we can do this thing, now,
you know, the goalposts kind of get moved, right, so
we can. We can talk about the limits of human
beings all day, but that doesn't make God true or

(01:43:36):
not true anymore. So, right, we're kind of at square one.

Speaker 3 (01:43:39):
With that you're trying to apply what I believe to
every any book. You're like, oh, why won't we believe?

Speaker 1 (01:43:44):
Yes, I don't believe that your belief is any more
special than my beliefs. And I don't know why you
haven't demonstrated that it is more special. I think it's
under the same criticism and scrutiny as anybody else's.

Speaker 3 (01:43:56):
Yes, I shall weave the boundaries.

Speaker 9 (01:43:58):
I don't know the Bible the burg create certain things,
and he set boundaries that man will never overcome.

Speaker 3 (01:44:07):
And I'm telling the.

Speaker 2 (01:44:08):
Same things over and over again. Doesn't make them prove Fireman.
The one thing that we've kept asking you to do.
We didn't ask you why you believed in God. We
asked you why we why you thought the Bible was true?
And you still haven't answered that. Now we've gone almost
we've gone almost a half an hour overtime for the
show to give you a chance to do that, and
you haven't been able to do it. So I don't

(01:44:29):
know that we can we're going to get anywhere, and
I don't know that keeping the show going even more
past a half an hour overtime is going to get
us there.

Speaker 9 (01:44:37):
So I want to take You asked me, why do
I believe in the Bible?

Speaker 4 (01:44:40):
And so no, no, that's not what I asked.

Speaker 2 (01:44:43):
No, that's not what I asked. That's not what I asked, fireman.
And that's the problem. You're not listening to us. You
are not listening at all. What I asked was why
is the Bible true?

Speaker 1 (01:44:58):
Right? That's different, very different.

Speaker 3 (01:45:00):
Well, I can only tell you what I believe, sir.
I can't tell you what's true.

Speaker 1 (01:45:03):
I could say that's fine.

Speaker 2 (01:45:06):
I think, Okay, Well, if you can't tell me if
the Bible is true, then don't use the Bible as proof.

Speaker 3 (01:45:11):
I think I think that's why we've been bumping his man,
because no, I.

Speaker 2 (01:45:17):
Know why we've been bumping the heads, and you don't
seem to understand it. We're bumping.

Speaker 1 (01:45:21):
I'm done, okay, Kelly's done, Fireman. You know, we talk
to a lot of Christians every week, you know, and
I don't know if anything you've said is really moved
the need for me. I understand that you you you've
sort of typed your showed yourself or claim to shown
yourself as a different kind of Christian, uh that you're
more willing to uh drop these beliefs than other Christians.

(01:45:44):
And for that, I say, that's great.

Speaker 10 (01:45:46):
That.

Speaker 1 (01:45:46):
What I would suggest then, is if you want to
talk to us again, figure out and try to convince us.
And maybe you don't want to convince us, that's fine.
I don't know why you're talking to us, but you
know that's your prerogative. Why we should consider the Bible
to be true, Why any of the claims in the
Bible should be true, Because the Bible is not the
only holy book that has ever existed, right, There's other
books that have made all kinds of other claims. And yeah,

(01:46:07):
it says some stuff about creation, but so have other books. Right,
So we need to figure out unique ways in which
the Bible can tell us true things about the world
that either other books can't or is more reliable than
other texts or other kinds of writing. And then otherwise
we're not going to be able to consider the Bible
any more legitimate than any other sources of text. And

(01:46:30):
I think we're going to have to leave it at
that firement. Thanks for your time today, and I hope
you have a great rest of your weekend. And that's it.
That's all she wrote, Kelly, I.

Speaker 2 (01:46:38):
Would say I hope he has a great, wonderful weekend.

Speaker 3 (01:46:40):
Man.

Speaker 2 (01:46:41):
I really do oh Kelly to like start to understand
the things that he's saying right or understand like we
have had several conversations and what he just did was
take a question that I asked and completely turn it
into another question. And he never answers the one you've asked.
And this is been going on for two three weeks now.

Speaker 1 (01:47:02):
So yeah, well well thanks for bringing that bringing that here.
Well he called in last week too, so yeah, yeah,
so I I I anyway, that was that was fun. Boy.
What a Sunday, folks. Uh, we are way over time.
So once again I need to thank the awesome crew
that let us go overtime today and is willing to
stick around and do this because we don't often do this,

(01:47:25):
you know, but only for the juicies of calls. Okay,
that's really what it is. I want to also thank
Scott for being here with us today as our backup host.
Scott there, he is pleasure. Sure show, Sure was a show.
I got to say, what's the prompt this week? Against Scott?

Speaker 5 (01:47:42):
The prompt this week is, boy, if I haven't I'm
dropping the ball here on my duties here. The prompt
for next week is what's the kind of truth you
don't want to hear?

Speaker 1 (01:47:53):
Yes, very appropriate for a truth wanted edition of talking
even definitely definitely so yeah, lavier answer and we would
like to know that. And also, hey, you want to
give out the love rings this time?

Speaker 6 (01:48:05):
All right, now, let's do the lover rings. Throw the
lover rings out.

Speaker 1 (01:48:08):
Boom, it's coming. Wait for it. There's a little bit.
Because the internet, it's a love lengb. We're actually one
of the only studios that still use dial up. I
don't know if you know that. That's right, that's a
that's the thing.

Speaker 3 (01:48:22):
So there you go.

Speaker 5 (01:48:24):
Anyway, if you listen closely, you can hear the morse
code tapping out right.

Speaker 1 (01:48:28):
All right, we have to do it manually right through,
like a little I don't know what they use for
morse code, like a tapping thing.

Speaker 3 (01:48:36):
I just know.

Speaker 1 (01:48:38):
I've seen I've seen the movies and stuff. I don't know.
I'm not on that note. It is time for us
to wrap up today's show. And uh, I think we
had some other wait, was there another super chat? I'm
missing a super chat real quick before we we tap out?
I think I did see one more maybe uh no,
there was one from Tough Enough. Fluffy gave ten dollars
and said you were all infinitely entertaining things for all

(01:49:00):
the fun throughout the years. Thank you tipping up Flappy
for the ten dollars. Thank you to everyone that watched
today's show. Yea answer. If you don't believe, this is
your community and we appreciate you being here. If you
do believe, we don't hate you, Kelly.

Speaker 2 (01:49:17):
We're just not convinced.

Speaker 1 (01:49:19):
Thanks so much, everybody, have a great weekend and enjoy
uh I hope you enjoyed this talk. Even there you go,
bye bye. We want the truth, so watch Truth Wanted

(01:49:45):
live Fridays at seven pm Central Call five one two
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