Talk Heathen 09.39 with Jimmy Jr. and Godless Engineer

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello. This past Tuesday and Wednesday was supposed to be
the big rapture day. A South African pastor named Joshua
had a dream that the rapture was upon us. Never
mind that Jesus said nobody knows when it'll happen, and
then it will be like a thief in the night TikTok.
Christians when absolutely bonkers with it. Atheists get disappointed when

(00:22):
a rapture fails, not because not only did Christians not
get raptured, but now we get to hear everyone rationalize
while the South African pastor's dream didn't come true. So
here's my no strict, dumb ass prediction for you. There's
going to be another rapture prediction in the near future,
and that rapture will also fail because Jesus isn't real

(00:43):
and he's not coming back. If you disagree with us,
then please call in because the show starts now. Yes,
all right, what a wonderful time alive. I don't know
if all of the Christians and believers are gone and

(01:05):
we're just left here and we don't have to deal
with them anymore, or the rapture just did not happen again,
but we're going to crack into that today, So welcome everyone.

Speaker 2 (01:14):
Today is September twenty eighth, twenty twenty five. I am
your host today. Jimmy Junior joining me is my friend,
the talented Godless engineer Godless. How the hell are you
doing today?

Speaker 1 (01:25):
You know, I'm doing pretty good if I could just
remembered unmute that I don't like screw stuff up when
it's my turn to do the monologue.

Speaker 2 (01:31):
Oh you know, I thought that was one of the
signs that we were looking for. So I thought the
rapture was actually happening. It was just a little late,
you know, when Godless has no voice, you know, I figure, hey,
this must.

Speaker 3 (01:43):
Be the time.

Speaker 2 (01:44):
But you know, we're still here again. So good to
be with you. Glad that you're joining me on this Sunday.
Glad that all of our viewers out there, wherever you
may be in the world, are joining us this Sunday.
You could be in church, but you're not. You're here
with us in Archer, and this is where we go
over what talk hethen it is all about. We are

(02:04):
a live call and show and we do have open lines,
so get them in at five one two nine nine
one nine two four two or from your computer at
tiny dot cc forward slash call THH and on Talk Heathen,
we are open to all of your questions regarding God, religion,
secular humanism, atheistic morality, cosmology, philosophy, science, history, life, the universe.

(02:26):
We always have a host that can talk to at
least a few of those things. And I know that
I've got one here with me today. Who is the
big brain in the room. Remember we are a production
of the Atheist Community of Austin, a five oh one
c three nonprofit organization dedicated to the promotion of atheism,
critical thinking, secular humanism, and the separation of religion and government.

(02:48):
And today's a good day, you know, because Talk Heathen
is taking over AXP today.

Speaker 3 (02:54):
And we have kidnapped j Mike.

Speaker 2 (02:57):
But we just want you to know that he is okay,
it's okay, but he's just not going to be going
on air until the Talk Heathen takeover is complete.

Speaker 3 (03:06):
So make sure that you not only watch this show.

Speaker 2 (03:08):
Today, but you tune into Atheist Experience this afternoon and
you can see some of the great Talk Heathen hosts.

Speaker 3 (03:15):
Doing their thing throughout the entire day.

Speaker 2 (03:18):
And on that note, don't forget to tune into the
nonprofits Mondays Wednesdays Fridays at seven pm Eastern, six pm Central.
And then of course we've got Truth Wanted, which I
was on last week with Dan. We had a really
good show Truth Wanted Friday night today pm Eastern, seven
pm Central. And with that we are going to start
our show Godless aka John I like calling you Godless better?

Speaker 3 (03:41):
What's on your mind?

Speaker 4 (03:42):
Man?

Speaker 3 (03:43):
What are you hoping to get into today?

Speaker 1 (03:45):
You know, just the full range of stuff, like, you know,
any kind of God questions or you know, one of
my strengths is a Christian origin, so like where did
Christianity come from? Then what's the historical reliability of you know,
the Christian faith? So like, those are things that I'm
really interested in, So I'm always stoked to take those
kinds of calls.

Speaker 2 (04:07):
Yeah, awesome, Well we do have callers on the line,
and with that, let's hop right into it. We are
going to go to Chloe she Her in Maryland. So Chloe, Chloe,
if I am reading this right, you want to know
what our thoughts on post quote unquote trans theism are
and does God's existence even matter?

Speaker 3 (04:26):
Chloe?

Speaker 2 (04:27):
You're on with Jimmy and John and I see that
you're a theist. Is all my information about you correct?

Speaker 3 (04:32):
So far?

Speaker 5 (04:33):
That is correct?

Speaker 3 (04:34):
Okay, great, Chloe. Well, it's nice to talk to.

Speaker 5 (04:37):
You, all right, it's wonderful to be here.

Speaker 3 (04:39):
Excellent, thanks for joining us. So what's on your mind?

Speaker 5 (04:41):
So it's on my mind is that, frankly, things have
gotten a little harry. If you haven't noticed, things are
a little uh, things are a little wild out there.
And it's just as a theist, it's made me question
about whether or not the exact nature of God is
as important as the nature of humans, because we've made
a hash of it down here, and we need to

(05:02):
figure things out, and I don't think that we're doing
a very good job of it, all right, And that
led me into a deep surgeon to post theism and
in trans theism, and I was wondering, what's the atheist
perspective on those two concepts, the idea that you know,
there's something more important than God, there's something more important
than the nature of the unseen spirits.

Speaker 2 (05:24):
Well, I've got a few comments to make on that one,
So thank you. I do just want to take a moment,
so I I think you touched upon trans theism.

Speaker 3 (05:33):
There the definition.

Speaker 2 (05:35):
So by trans theism, can you again reiterate what exactly
is it you mean by that term.

Speaker 5 (05:40):
Oh, it's just the idea that there are more important
things than God. Okay, there are more than theism.

Speaker 3 (05:45):
There are more important things in theism.

Speaker 4 (05:47):
On that.

Speaker 2 (05:48):
I'm going to address that in a second. But but
you're to your first point. Things are getting hairy out there.
I think I know what you're talking about, and I
think I see where you're coming from. However, I would
add anybody making a claim like that, regardless of what
we're talking about, whether it be geopolitics or religion or
the happenings of the world, at some point in time

(06:11):
throughout human history, that claim has always been valid. Right,
So for somebody out there, things are always hairy. For
somebody out there, things are always chaotic and unfair. And
I think that you're talking about certain events, maybe situations
within the United States, perhaps even the world. But I
think the world is a lot more dynamic than people

(06:32):
give it credit for. So I'm gonna I want to
make that point originally or initially and then say I absolutely.

Speaker 3 (06:39):
Think that there are more things important than God.

Speaker 2 (06:41):
In fact, you using maybe human nature, human experience absolutely
more important than God. The way that we are all
able to interact on this globe and you know, just
share this space and be able to get along.

Speaker 3 (06:54):
It doesn't happen. It doesn't happen.

Speaker 2 (06:57):
Well, it doesn't always happen, and since I think probably
the beginning of humankind, it has never really happened to
the extent that everybody would like to experience it.

Speaker 3 (07:08):
So yeah, I think with that, I.

Speaker 2 (07:10):
Have to say a you know, that's just it ends
up being the nature of the of how we live
and the way we live, and I think it's always
been like that, but be yeah, it's certainly more important
to consider how we can make life better for each other.
And I think that that would include examining these god claims,
these dogmas, these religions, and getting down to what we

(07:34):
can actually support with evidence and with proof, and what
we can't, and then differentiating our actions based on that.
So before I kick it over to Godless Engineer, I
just like to know what you have to say about that.

Speaker 5 (07:44):
So far, that's actually a nice reminder that that things
have always been a little airy. That it's kind of
comforting to to get back to recenter and re understand that,
but I'm more interested in what godless engineer has to
say about this.

Speaker 1 (08:01):
So for me, I think that beliefs drive actions. And
if you have people that are believing in divine command
theory of God or have these very magical beliefs in
a deity that we don't know whether or not it exists,

(08:21):
if you're talking about specific definitions of God, then they
have very specific demands of people which are not humanistic.
And I think that the way forward for society is
to be more humanistic in nature, which means that you
have to shed those ideas of God and what God
wants and needs. And I think that right now, what
we're seeing a lot in the modern day is there's

(08:44):
a lot of people out there that are primarily focused
on what they think God wants, and what they think
God wants most of the time is going to align
with what they personally want, and so they're just using
this idea of God in order to sort of protect,
you know, their opinion, like, oh, well, you know, my

(09:06):
you know, I'm I'm I think this because God commands
and because God is good, that means that my my
opinion is good. And so I think that by attacking
the idea of God and whether or not that idea
of God is valid. I think that is the way
that we move forward. So, I mean, I can understand

(09:27):
where you're coming from, but at the same time, I
think the only way to get to that point is
by dismantling these very traditional ideas of God.

Speaker 3 (09:37):
Yeah. Yeah, well put Chloe, what do you think about that?

Speaker 5 (09:41):
Yeah? So a lot of that seems to be to dismantle,
like the the authority structure that God gives you. So
you know, whatever humanistic tendency is underlying that that urge
to say that I am right, it is bolstered by that,
by that god belief of God. I am right because
God says so. And to tear down that authority structure

(10:04):
seems to be very important from your perspective, because so
much of an undergirds like a lot of what's been
going on lately. I don't want you so without approach.

Speaker 2 (10:16):
Well, Chloe, can I just ask for a little bit
of clarification, And again, we we don't want to get
into we don't want to get into politics per se.
I mean, it'd be one thing to talk about like
events worldwide or like a zeitgeist of a certain region
and things like that. But I don't want to get
into political parties and elections and and you know, elected

(10:36):
officials or living politicians. So without trudging through that stuff
or trudging for that stuff, can we get an idea
of what you mean by things being hairy?

Speaker 5 (10:46):
Yeah, we've got so like the issue with the with
the rapture that was supposed to happen last week, we
have a lot of people that were basically running on
vibes and running off this this this need for this
thing to happen, and there's an underlying human need for
that to happen. And where did that come from? Why

(11:07):
are we like this? I don't know, and I'm trying
to get a grip of it.

Speaker 3 (11:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (11:11):
So so I've got a few thoughts on that and
then and then I'll see what we have to say,
and we'll follow this format.

Speaker 3 (11:16):
I'll kick it over to my guest today.

Speaker 2 (11:18):
But you know, I think that there is a great
deal of necessity in believing you have a connection in
order to survive. So humans often say, or people often
say that human beings as a species of social animals, right,
But it's not just like this need to be around
other people. Uh, this need to interact, that that makes

(11:40):
us social. It's it's our group where there's safety in numbers,
and then that safety guarantees our survival and we end
up forming you know, tribes, and you have this very innate,
very instinctive, tribalist way that you live your life. And
religion is just one of those ways that we create
in groups. And so I think to maintain that in group, right,

(12:04):
and so I'm talking on a very basic level as
far as human human sustenance is concerned, as far as
survivability of the species or survivability as the group is concerned.
To maintain that in group, you kind of adhere to
certain codes social norms. A lot of them can be
rooted in religion. Now, there are other things that create

(12:26):
in groups. You know, there are political parties I think
can be an example. I think different cultures have a
different have ways of applying themselves to a group, but
religion certainly does that. And you have these dogmas that
it's almost more destructive to the group to question the
dogma than it is to just rationalize it out and

(12:47):
keep it going. So, for example, for a rapture to
not take place, well let's rationalize that a way instead
of putting ourselves in a position to where our group
loses its solidarity and where group kind of loses its legitimacy. Right,
a lot of good things are coming from this in group,
and we don't want it to dissolve, and so.

Speaker 3 (13:09):
Let's just kind of keep the mythology going.

Speaker 2 (13:12):
And I think that that is how again, on a
very on a very basic level, we start to see
the development of dogmas and religions and how they are
applied to society. Now, you started kind of down the
path of you know, people wanting to remain in power and.

Speaker 3 (13:27):
Things like that.

Speaker 2 (13:27):
And yes, power structures certainly thrive on religion, but it's
not always about power, although it often is.

Speaker 3 (13:35):
And so I think in addressing.

Speaker 2 (13:37):
Your response to how does or your question to how
do things like this come about? I would start there,
And so what are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 5 (13:44):
Oh, it's absolutely vibes on some level. It is absolutely
that that what will get me going to the next day.
And what I find interesting though in this particular case,
is that it happened on TikTok where people are anomized
and not necessarily in groups. So we're not talking about
like a Facebook group that was saying this. It was
just individual people adamized into this behavior, into this way

(14:08):
of thinking. So like what was going on there? I
don't know, and I'm trying to make sense of it.

Speaker 3 (14:14):
Yeah, John, do you want to respond?

Speaker 1 (14:16):
Yeah? So for me, I feel like this is just
a symptom of you know, what it takes to believe in,
you know, these theistic ideologies. And I think the fact
that people are easily convinced into like rapture beliefs and everything,
I think that is a symptom of a larger problem

(14:38):
in that they religion itself sort of trains people to
accept these ridiculous claims without questioning. There's if you look
at the Bible, the Bible starts off being very anti intelligence,
like anti education. They don't want you asking questions. They
don't want you knowing things that God knows. They want

(15:01):
you to not you know, take of the tree of
life or whatnot. They don't want you to be on
the same level of God as far as like knowledge
goes and all this other stuff. So it seems to
me like if you create a population of people that
you're constantly telling them not to question things, and you
punish people that are part of that group for questioning things,

(15:26):
then you're gonna end up with people that just believe
things because supposedly some guy had a dream about Jesus
coming back soon. And so I think that still the
way that we attack that is by dismantling the ideas
that undergird it, and those ideas being fantastical and magical,
I think are the source of the problem.

Speaker 3 (15:47):
Which makes me kind.

Speaker 1 (15:48):
Of curious personally as to why you still consider yourself
a theist, Like what convinces you to still believe in
a god, because that kind of belief is the exact
same kind of belief that we're talking about with the
rapture stuff. I mean, I guess I just I simply
am always confused by theists and why they continue to

(16:10):
believe in their particular deities.

Speaker 2 (16:13):
Yeah, excellent, excellent segue. And that brings me to where
I'd like to go next. You know, Chloe, I'll give
you an opportunity to reflect on what godless engineer just
asked you or just talked about, but then please take
us into your walk through your belief because I get
the sense that maybe you're questioning your beliefs, and I'd

(16:33):
like to know where you're coming from.

Speaker 5 (16:35):
Yeah. My walk with theism basically started with trying to
understand why do these stories? Because I'm Norse Pagan, I'm
not a Christian, Why do these stories so keep resonating
with me? Why did these gods keep resonating me? Why
do these why does this aesthetic resonate with me? Why

(16:55):
does this period of time keep resonating with me? And
I don't have an answer to that, And I've been
questioning the entire time, which is what led me into
thinking about posttheism, which led me to thinking about trans theism,
which led me to thinking about what's more important than
the god claim? You know, it's living our lives? But
what does that mean? What does that look like?

Speaker 2 (17:15):
What?

Speaker 5 (17:16):
You know? I'm full of questions, but no answers seem
to be, you know, there to fill in that gap
of this is why you feel this way about you know, Odin, Freya,
you know all these other gods low keytoor et cetera.

Speaker 2 (17:29):
So when you say, and when you say, you're asking yourself,
why did these these things resonate with me?

Speaker 5 (17:35):
Uh? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (17:37):
My My question immediately is, well, how did you become
a Norse pagan. Is this something that you were raised
on as a child or or did you Did you
find your way into it through some other means?

Speaker 4 (17:49):
Oh?

Speaker 5 (17:49):
I found my way into it.

Speaker 2 (17:50):
Okay, okay, Yeah, so that I find that interesting. So
you found your way into it later in life? Yeah,
and will you.

Speaker 5 (17:57):
The short of it is is that oh sorry, no,
please continue. Oh I was just going to say the
short of it. The very short of it is is
that you can tell by my pronouns she heard my
voice is extremely clocky on trans And this is the
only answer that I have, and it is incomplete, and
it is what I have. It's that, for whatever reason,
there is a lot of gender feelings in this particular

(18:20):
outlet of feism. Something about goddess worship is really good
for my genderness for you.

Speaker 3 (18:24):
Yeah, that's it. That's so were you?

Speaker 2 (18:27):
Were you a Christian or a different faith before you
found yourself in the Norse paganism.

Speaker 5 (18:32):
My dad tried to raise this Catholic, but as of
like twelve thirteen years old, he stopped trying. And then
it wasn't until my mid thirties that I took up theism.

Speaker 3 (18:41):
Yeah, so I find that interesting.

Speaker 2 (18:43):
And I do want to pass it over to Godless Engineer,
because I think that you have good, a good kind
of background in the foundations of some of these religions.
But from what I understand is that you do find
a certain level of goddess worship present in the Norse
pagan religion that is a little bit more prominent than

(19:03):
it is in the Abrahamic religions. And so you know,
it doesn't surprise me that you found some solace there.
I will say that it's common for people to step
away from Christianity and try a new religion, one that
is less restrictive toward them. And we often find our
way people who leave Christianity because they've been told for

(19:25):
so long that there's a thing out there, they just
start looking for a new thing instead of saying is
there even a thing?

Speaker 3 (19:32):
And that's how when I.

Speaker 2 (19:34):
Was in college, I decided, Hey, I think Taoism is really,
you know, something that I believe in, and it's actually
not Christianity. And then we've got other hosts that work
with the atheist community of Boston and just people in
general who typically find their way into like an Eastern religion, Buddhism,
Hinduism on their road to deconstruction. So I think that
you know, despite the maybe the questions, maybe the chaos,

(19:58):
even that you might be or anything with your beliefs, uh,
you're among friends and you're in good company, and I
think that your your your path is not all that different.
So I would like to kick it over to Godless
and see what he's got to say.

Speaker 1 (20:13):
Yeah, I guess I'm just trying to think about the
conversation in total here, because Chloe, I feel like you
call it in initially being confused about why people would,
you know, believe in this rapture thing, and it seems
to just all be vibes, But then when you describe
why you're a Norse pagan, it seems like it's the

(20:34):
exact same reason. Is not to downplay the reason why
you're Norse pagan or anything like that or what that
does for your You're just for your or or or whatnot.
I'm not trying to downplay that, but I'm just wondering
maybe you can give some clarification as to what differentiates
your reason for believing in the Norse gods versus the

(20:56):
people that are believing in the rapture, because it to me,
it's SEMs like it's the exact same reason, And.

Speaker 5 (21:02):
That's actually why I'm calling because I'm trying to understand that,
because I don't understand what the difference is, and that
gives me a lot of pause as to why I'm
doing what I'm doing, and it leads me to, you know,
continually deconstruct and look at what's going on all over
and wondering, you know, am I any better than anyone else?
So you're actually quite spot on with that that this
is entirely about vibes. But if this is about vibes,

(21:25):
then a lot of people are being very very very
irresponsible with their vibes and how it, you know, manifests
in their actions in the real world.

Speaker 1 (21:37):
Well, so let me ask you this. Do you believe
in anything else purely based on vibes?

Speaker 5 (21:42):
Well, I'm a huge fan of the Baltimore Ravens based
on vibes, I mean, okay, I mean and Mark Andrew
Mark Henry did a great video on the nature of
fandom and how it intersects with religion. So like that
that that is one of those things that has me
continually questioning, like why, and like I don't think I'm
whether I'm going to get to a real, actual answer.

(22:03):
I just want to feel like I'm getting a.

Speaker 1 (22:05):
Little closer, right Well, so for me, yeah, So for
me personally, I don't go based off of vibes like
what feels right to me. I typically try to have
evidence for the things that I believe, And if I
don't have evidence to believe in something, then I just
simply don't believe in it. There's no reason for me
to believe in it, like leprechauns, unicorns, anything of that nature. Like,

(22:29):
we don't have evidence that suggests that those things exist
in reality, so there's no reason for me to actually
believe in it. And I would think that, you know,
having sort of this vibe sort of feeling for like
either a personality or a sports team or something like that,
I feel like that's a little bit different in that
those things change all the time. Like the person changes,

(22:52):
their attitudes change or their actions change. The sports ball
team they are going to change up their rosters and
everything like that, so like you can still be you
can still have good vibes about it and believe that
they'll win and everything like that, even if you don't
have good reasons to believe that they'll win.

Speaker 5 (23:09):
Like that.

Speaker 1 (23:09):
These are pretty innocuous beliefs that have the possibility of
like completely changing. But when we're talking about God, we're
talking about something that is supposed to be just like
a fact about reality, right, and so uh, that's not
going to change, like the Norse god myths. Uh, typically
like like whatever you're believing in now, like as far

(23:30):
as like the mythology behind that, that's not going to change.
If you don't have like evidence for those gods now
that actually shows that they exist, then what's the purpose
in believing in them? I think that you can find
different ways to you know, to find that kind of
fulfillment that you're currently feeling with the Norse pagan religion.

(23:53):
I think that you can definitely find that in other
ways that are that are not going to be I
hesitate to use this word but diluting yourself into thinking
about it through religion, and instead you can base it
on something very tangible and something very real here in reality.

Speaker 5 (24:09):
Oh, no doubt. But the thing is is that I've
been searching for like twenty years for that saying, and
then like you know, I found something and all it
asked me to do was be silly every so often
doing ritual or doing prayer. So I really didn't consider
the straight off to be so bad because, like, I
still don't know about the existence of my gods. What

(24:32):
I do know for an absolute certain is that they
inspire me to get up into the world and get
going and get moving, and like epistemically, that's all I've
got and that's what I go off of. Is not
whether or not they exist. You know, they exist to
some degree, like Mario exists from Super Mario brothers. We
can point to a sprite or a three D model
and say that's Mario. But is a real different questions.

Speaker 2 (24:55):
I'm not right, and I think in conjunction with some
of the things that John just said, I don't I
don't get the feeling that although you call yourself a theist,
that you actually believe in the gods that are part
of the Norse pagan religion. I think that at least
what I'm hearing, and please, I'm not putting words in
your mouth, but maybe the stories motivate you, right, maybe

(25:16):
the ideas of some of these gods and their power
motivate you. But I don't think I'm not getting the
sense that you actually believe in them that you came.
You came across these accounts of these gods and you said,
well that is provable. There are good reasons to believe
that this is exactly how the universe is structured. Uh,
And you know this is a fact of life. I

(25:38):
think that when you were being raised as a Catholic
and your your father was trying to raise you as
a Catholic, definitely was was was in implementing the idea
that God is a fact of life. But then you
moved on and you had a little bit more autonomy
and you could make decisions about how you live your
own life. And perhaps this Maig Norse pagan affiliation is

(26:01):
not all that different from the way that you see
the Baltimore ravens, because there isn't in group that you
can be a part of. You can relate and socialize
with people who follow North Norse pagan traditions, even if
the only purposes to be silly, or even if the
only purpose is to say, yeah, we're all from Baltimore.
You know, there are there are social constructs there that

(26:25):
are very important to people and give them a feeling
of legitimacy. That I think that maybe you have found
but I'm not getting the sense that you think this
is a legitimate fact to John's point, and so that
to answer your question is what I think makes you different?
You know, because you say, well, I've got my own religion.
I'm not a Christian but and I'm not claiming that

(26:48):
the rapture is an event that we should all take seriously.
But I do have my own stuff. And what makes
me any different? Well, you know, the thing that makes
you different is that you admittedly call it silly and
that you're just kind of but there along for the ride.
So I would I would pause it that on you
and ask you where you stand there.

Speaker 5 (27:07):
Oh, that's a absolutely valid point. The point I would
say about whether or not I actually believe is a
very personal one, and it is about like, because like,
I didn't grow up with theism, I didn't grow up
with this idea that God is a thing. And I'm
still trying to grapple with the idea of God's existing,

(27:30):
Like what does it mean? What does it look like?
You know? What does the God of the gaps argument
really mean? I mean, does Jesus really get us getty
closer to quantum gravity or any other mysteries that we
have about the universe. Not really, but it does give
us answers about what do we do with our lives,
you know, And like, maybe it's been so many years
of being a skeptic and so many years of living

(27:51):
in that world that maybe I'm just being too outwardly
cautious about what I actually believe, which is that whatever
it is that I'm praying to is bringing me, is
bringing me you know, immense comfort, It is bringing me
you know, motivation, it is bringing me these things. Maybe
I'm being kind of a coward by not fully buying
in and saying, yes, this is real, John, You I

(28:14):
don't think this may not be the place, time or
place for that conversation.

Speaker 1 (28:18):
Well, I mean I don't think that. I don't think
that you're being a coward for not buying fully into it.
I mean I think that as social animals, and as
we have seen in different studies of other great apes,
that ritualistic sort of practices are are prevalent even in

(28:39):
our great ape cousins. So like doing those kinds of
things can be very therapeutic for us and everything. I
just I guess I'm I'm I consider myself an anti theist.
So I think that any belief that you have that
doesn't align with reality is potentially going to harm either
you or other peop people. And so I feel like

(29:02):
any kind of belief in something that doesn't that we
don't have good evidence forward to like to believe in,
I think that could eventually end up harming you. And
I would just caution, you know, if you continue to
like do those rituals and everything like that, just be
cautious about, you know, what that causes you to believe

(29:23):
or what that causes you to do, because you know,
as we see with like Christian nationalists, now you have
people that are very easily led down a certain path
that leads to very harmful beliefs, and I just don't
want to see that happen to you. I don't know
if that makes sense.

Speaker 5 (29:40):
Oh it does, It absolutely doesn't. It's one of the
things that's been on my mind because of you know,
twenty years of watching you know, stuff like the aforementioned
rapture stuff happened over the last twenty years, and you know,
seeing all sorts of different pitfalls of theistic thought and
belief and motivation has led me very much to be
skeptical of my own thoughts, motivation, et cetera. But I

(30:03):
think that the answer I'm ultimately looking for is to
ultimately just embrace who and what I am and just
get to work and do in this world as I
seem fit. And whether or not that has positive or
negative effects, we'll figure it out later.

Speaker 2 (30:20):
Well, I don't think that your perspective here is all
that unhealthy. Uh, a fact, I wouldn't call it that
at all. I think introspection, uh, checking ourselves on our
preconceived notions regularly is actually a very good thing to
do if you want to have you know, these these
relationships to the Norse pagan religion, but also you know,

(30:43):
kind of identify, like John said, you know what's good
for you, what's bad for you?

Speaker 3 (30:48):
Uh, And and maybe.

Speaker 2 (30:49):
Regularly just kind of check you know, who who am I,
what is it that I believe?

Speaker 3 (30:54):
What are my values?

Speaker 2 (30:55):
And constantly remind yourself what the what those things are
and and change your mind when it no longer represents you.
I don't think that there's anything wrong with that. I
don't think you should be stressed out about that at all.
In fact, I think you're on a path to being
kind of very happy with who you are, and I
hope that that's what you're getting. You know, I'm gonna

(31:19):
make a little joke here, but I like to go
to Renaissance fairs. I do the whole dress up and
drink the drink the ale and eat the turkey legs.
But I don't really think that we should all be,
you know, surfs on a fief them. And I don't
praise a king, you know. I mean, these things are
kind of fun, they're social. I don't really believe in them,
but I like to do them. And I don't mean

(31:40):
to like knock your I'm not trying to sound like
I'm knocking your religion by downplaying it.

Speaker 3 (31:43):
In any way. But you exploring with the kind of
the things that make you feel good, and you know,
regularly evaluating.

Speaker 2 (31:52):
Yourself on some of the some of the feelings that
you have perfectly fine, and so I think that this
is a good place to have that conversation, you know,
contrary to kind of what you just said before.

Speaker 3 (32:03):
And I'm glad that you keep questioning things. So what
are your thoughts there?

Speaker 5 (32:06):
Oh, that's actually a huge relief, because I it you
can tell yourself this is healthy so many times. But
my therapist says that we are actually owed a shread
if not a lot of external validation to our thoughts
and to our claims. Maybe not a lot, but you know,
to a certain degree we are we are owed, you know,

(32:27):
being told that yes, this is actually right, this is
the right thing to do from someone other than the inside,
because from what I can tell from the inside is that,
you know, I'm being driven by vibes to do silly
things and it's potentially a waste of time maybe who knows,
But it's bringing me, you know, comfort in life. It's
bringing me clarity, it's bringing me focus, it's bringing me

(32:49):
you know, purpose, well, other than making sure that I'm
not doing harm to myself for others. You know, really,
should I be dis hard on myself in questioning? Should
be questioning, no doubt, But to what degree? You know?
I think I need to figure that out with my therapist.

Speaker 3 (33:05):
Goat John. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (33:06):
So the best thing that I can do at this
point is just direct you towards like the Secular Therapy project.
It's Secular Therapy dot org. And uh, I know that
you said that you've already got a uh, you know,
a therapist and everything like that. But I mean, I guess,
I just I don't feel qualified to really give you

(33:28):
a lot of good feedback here. That's why I direct
you that way. But like I'm just now recalling that
you did talk about having a therapist and talking to
a therapist. I think that as long as you continue
to you know, question your beliefs and question you know,
the conclusions that you're coming to, and you and outside
of the theistic belief set, if you require evidence in

(33:52):
order for you to come to some kind of conclusion
or believe in some kind of conclusion, I think that
that is the better way to to navigate through things.

Speaker 5 (34:01):
Yeah, oh, absolutely, just I think I think the question
that I don't have an answer for that I'm really
looking for is where are the vibes coming from? And
they're clearly coming from within the house, but where exactly
I don't know, And that's something I should be working
with a professional. And I think, I think, I think
this is the end of this conversation because I'm not
sure where else we can go with this. But yeah, well, hey,

(34:23):
letting me.

Speaker 3 (34:24):
I think I think it's.

Speaker 2 (34:26):
You know, the vibes if if they're if they're being
translated as you being comfortable and you feeling good, perfectly,
perfectly fine, perfectly normal, and probably I wish more people
had those vibes. But you know, as we end this call,
I just want to remind you, you know, the greatest
minds out there are constantly asking people to tear down
their preconceived notions. Scientists, scholars, they put out work, they

(34:49):
do experiments. Myself, I was a military intelligence analyst for
a while, and I would have to come up with
kind of these courses of action and then find ways
to take them down. Uh, And it's it's a good
thing to get to the truth. So I think that
you're you're doing great. I'm happy that you're you're talking
to somebody. Nothing wrong with that. In fact, uh, you know,

(35:11):
I most people would probably encourage you to do that.
So without further ado, I'm gonna let you go, Chloe,
and thank you so much for giving us a call today.
That was a really good conversation. We do have more
callers on the line, but we are gonna go and
do some things that we need to do, all right,
And I want to talk about our TikTok slash Patreon benefits, So, crew,

(35:36):
if you could go ahead and throw up that wonderful
graphic we have. I want to remind everybody that Talk
Heathen is live on TikTok Tuesday and Thursday evenings, so
you should definitely go check us out. Tuesday's at three
pm Central, we're Richard Gilliver, our wonderful producer, takes to
the airways and has conversation with people, and then I,
for the most part, will be there on Thursday nights

(35:58):
at eight pm Central me eight pm Eastern, so seven
pm Central. And if you can't make it.

Speaker 3 (36:03):
The recordings are available.

Speaker 2 (36:04):
On Patreon, so follow us on Patreon. Get over there,
check out Talk Heathen, subscribe, share, and join the Talk
Heathen community. And with that, you know, we want to
go to the people that make this all possible. And
so I want to pull up the crewcam. Folks, you
need to take a look at all these wonderful individuals
right check out the crew making it happen today. We

(36:26):
got call screeners, we got audio video people making it work.

Speaker 3 (36:30):
And I want to talk.

Speaker 2 (36:31):
About somebody special today and that is our good friend
Eli Eli. Not only does Eli run Greg, our producer's
personal errands like laundry and getting coffee and things like that.

Speaker 3 (36:43):
But Eli over here is, yeah, there is. Eli is
the head.

Speaker 2 (36:48):
Hounshow right now for our show the nonprofits. Eli is
a video dude that helps with all the shows. Eli
helps us make it work. My good friend who I've
hung out in person and can't wait to do so again.
So thanks Eli for stepping up and being part of
the team and making this all possible. And with that,
we're going to jump into another call. We have got

(37:10):
Anton from West Virginia and Anton has a question about Christianity.
Was it copied from Mythriism? Ooh, good one, Anton, go ahead,
what's your question?

Speaker 6 (37:21):
H I'm an atheist because I've figured out by study
that Christianity was borrowed heavily from older religions, starting with
Mythrism and a lot of other ones. But a believer
told me that there was new evidence that it was
the reverse way, that Mythriism actually copied from Christianity. Which
one is the truth, which one copy from the other one?

Speaker 2 (37:43):
So I know, oh, John, I know that you can
speak to this. I know that you can speak to this.
So before you do, I would like to give my
understanding and then have John tear it down for me.
So this is the way I understand it, Okay, that
Mythrism was one of those religions that did it in fact,
and I say fact because that's the way I understand it. Again,

(38:04):
I'm gonna have John come up and give his expertise.
But the way I understand it is Mithrism was born
out of an older religion called Zoroastrianism. And around this time,
while many religions did have an afterlife, all of these afterlives,
let's say in the Greek religion or some of the
Mesopotamian religions, these afterlives were rather uneventful.

Speaker 3 (38:23):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (38:24):
Sometimes it was just where everybody went and it was
like a dark place where nothing really happened. Other times
it was a mirror of society. So if you were
of high status and high influence, then you maintain that
in the afterlife, and the same thing if you were
poor and you know, unimportant. But Mithriism, the way I
understand it, was something that offered a salvation, but only

(38:48):
to a certain select group of people. Soldiers, gladiators, those
were the kind of people. People who were got slaves,
people that were gonna die die early, or die you know,
a short life and not have a very good life.

Speaker 3 (39:00):
Found salvation through mythriism. And so that's what I understand.

Speaker 2 (39:03):
And then Christianity in its in its nacency, borrowed some
concepts but was able to spread those concepts not just
to soldiers and gladiators and slaves, but to everyone. And
that is where I leave you, John, Please tell me
where how I did?

Speaker 4 (39:20):
I mean?

Speaker 1 (39:21):
Uh, not too bad, I guess uh. But so so
the key, the key thing to understand here is that
it's not copying, right, They're not copying things. What it's
called is UH syncretism. There's a syncretism between Hellenistic ideas
and mystery cults. And this occurs in various different UH forms.

(39:44):
Mithrism is just one form of syncretism between Hellenistic ideas
and Persian ideas. And then you've got like the Mysteries
of Addis and Cybel, there was a syncretism between Hellenistic
and Anatolian ideas. The mys Ties of Isis and Osiris
was a syncretization between Egyptian and Hellenistic ideas. And then

(40:07):
Christianity comes along and it's a syncretism between Hellenistic ideas
and Jewish ideas. And so the reason why you might
be seeing connections between like Mythriism and all these other
mystery cults that were going around at the time is
because they were based on the same kind of skeletal
structure that mystery cults are based on. And they're also
using Hellenistic ideas from the Mediterranean around that time in

(40:32):
order to build out their own custom versions of these
mystery cults. And so while they're not strictly copied, they're syncretized.
And with syncretism comes differences. There are going to be
differences between Mythriism and the mysteries of Addis and cybel
There's going to be differences between both of them, and

(40:54):
the Isis and Osiris, and of course with Christianity.

Speaker 3 (40:57):
And so if you think of.

Speaker 1 (41:00):
At it in a in a straight plagiarism or in
a straight copying sort of way, you're probably going to
get a lot of pushback. But if you say that
it was syncretized in that a new religion, Christianity was
created by merging the beliefs of Hellenistic ideas and these

(41:20):
mystery cults that were out there the basic skeletal structure
of these mystery cults, you merge them together and you
end up getting you know, Christianity, because like there's a
lot of elements of Christianity that come from Zoroastrianism, the
burning Hell, the adversary or the cosmic uh, you know,

(41:42):
villain of God that we know now as Satan. All
of that was sort of developed from syncretizing these mystery cults,
multiple different mystery cult ideas with Hellenistic ideas in order
to produce these things. So I wouldn't I would against saying, oh,
Christianity is a copy of Mithraism. It's more like Christianity

(42:06):
is its own unique thing that was cobbled together from
multiple different sources in the Mediterranean area that were influencing
religious beliefs at that time.

Speaker 3 (42:17):
Fantastic, Anton, What do you say.

Speaker 5 (42:19):
Which one?

Speaker 6 (42:20):
Okay, they're kind of explained it, but I just wanted
to know which one came first.

Speaker 1 (42:25):
Well, Mithrism, right, Mithraism was definitely first before before Christianity.
Christianity didn't develop until like the first century CE, at
least in the form that we know it in. So
Mithraism would have definitely been syncretized first and then uh,

(42:46):
and then and then Filo of Alexandria and Paul the
Apostle were busy syncretizing Judaism with Hellenistic ideas.

Speaker 5 (42:53):
Okay, thank you?

Speaker 6 (42:54):
Is that it answered my question?

Speaker 5 (42:56):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (42:57):
Okay, okay, great, well you know that, I mean, there
are a lot of similarities. So, uh yeah, that was
that was fantastic. I I love talking about this stuff.
And you know, it's it's what you make a good point, like,
it's not just a matter of somebody found this religion
and they they took it and added to their own religion.

Speaker 3 (43:18):
It's a matter of.

Speaker 2 (43:19):
What were the the common cultural norms of the time,
and then what kind of ideas were being exchanged. People
weren't just isolated and fixated in one location. There was
a massive, massive, extensive trade network covering the Mediterranean, Africa, UH,
the Near East, all the way into uh into Asia, right,

(43:41):
and so it's not a surprise that a lot of
these ideas, uh not only you know, passed through those channels,
but also kind of supplanted themselves across different cultures and
developed a little bit differently, but still borrowed things. You know,
it's no surprise to me that Zeus and yahweh very similar.

Speaker 3 (43:59):
Right, storm gods.

Speaker 2 (44:01):
Had a son that was half half god half human.
Both of them traveled to the underworld, and you know,
as luck would have it, they just were able to
kind of keep keep living right even after traveling to
the underworld.

Speaker 3 (44:17):
And so.

Speaker 2 (44:19):
Make no mistake that across the region, these things were
developing and coexisting and borrowing from each other, and some
could make the argument getting better, which is why they
became more popular.

Speaker 3 (44:29):
I don't know, but it wasn't It wasn't just due
to trade.

Speaker 5 (44:33):
You know.

Speaker 2 (44:33):
Of course this stuff was burned and enslaved and murdered
into people as well, So there's a factor there you
have to consider. But fantastic conversation. Anything else to add, John.

Speaker 1 (44:45):
I don't have anything else to add other than I'm wondering, Anton,
do you believe that Jesus existed in history?

Speaker 3 (44:51):
No?

Speaker 6 (44:52):
Way, Okay, there's no proof at all that he existed.
Even the Shroud of Turin was proven to be a fake.
I'm a total atheist.

Speaker 3 (45:00):
I'm glad that Anton still here. I thought he hung up.

Speaker 2 (45:02):
I thought he hung upbout us are cool? So Anton,
were you ever our believer?

Speaker 3 (45:07):
Yeah?

Speaker 6 (45:08):
We started going to church when I was like maybe thirteen.
Then when I moved out at eighteen, I started questioning
why the Jews don't believe in Jesus. So I called
a synagogue and she invited me to come over to
one of their services and asked questions if I had
any questions. So I started coming over there, and I
started asking questions, and then I converted to the Jewish side,

(45:28):
and she got replaced as a rabbi because they didn't
believe in female rabbis. So I got mad. I started
going to a different synagogue where I converted completely to Judaism,
and the rabbi had made it flat out that Judaism
was made up by the scribes and that Moses what
didn't write the Aura. So I just left for months
that I was wasting my time and studied science and

(45:51):
religion and realized the hard way that none of the
Bible people, especially Jesus, existed. So I've been an astist
ever since then.

Speaker 3 (45:59):
Nice, well, that is a fascinating story.

Speaker 2 (46:01):
You know, I want to make a recommendation to you,
if I will, if if if, if you don't mind,
So you sound like somebody that would be interested in
this stuff. So I listened to a podcast called The Ancients,
and they talk a lot about ancient mythology and ancient
politics and culture and how they're all intertwined. And the
most recent episode is a fantastic account of how how

(46:26):
the god Inana from Samerian culture made it all the
way into Christianity and Hellenistic folklore as well. And I
think that if you go back and check that out,
uh you will you will see uh parallels to what
John just talked about, uh and to maybe what I
mentioned about Zeus and yahweh. And I think you you'll

(46:47):
find it incredibly interesting and uh it'll answer some questions
for you as well. So if you have nothing else,
that's that's all I got. I appreciate you calling Anton John.

Speaker 1 (46:58):
Yeah, I was, okay, what do you.

Speaker 6 (47:01):
Got good on YouTube? The Ancients? Because I'm looking at it.

Speaker 5 (47:04):
I can't find it.

Speaker 3 (47:05):
No wherever you get your podcasts you might find it.
I find it.

Speaker 2 (47:08):
It's a helpful resource to just kind of, uh, you know,
stay consistent on some of these mythologies and concepts, because
they're if you don't practice it every day, it's easy
to forget.

Speaker 3 (47:17):
Pardon me.

Speaker 6 (47:18):
Final thing, I get my podcast on stream Yard. But anyway,
final thing, is it true that the evidence that we're
living in a simulation that we might be.

Speaker 1 (47:31):
Yeah? Uh no, I mean there's no evidence that we're
living in a simulation. What if I recall that guy
uh he comes to that conclusion just because he rate
for whatever reason, he rates the possibility of us being
in base reality to be incredibly low. So it's more
likely that we're not. But I don't see any reason

(47:52):
why like he and he doesn't give any kind of
like Baesian analysis for uh his particular conclusion there. But
as far as is whether or not we're in a simulation,
this kind of touches on like hard solbism. And I
don't see the benefit in discussing hard solubism when we're
talking about this, because regardless of whether or not we're
in a simulation, we're still faced with We're all faced

(48:13):
with this reality that is constructed in a certain way
that we interact with. We all interact with in a
certain way, and we're bound by the laws that we
have been able to discern about this reality. So whether
or not we're a simulation, I don't think that that
really matters, because it's ultimately not going to change our
investigation of our reality.

Speaker 6 (48:33):
Okay, thank you, that's all I had.

Speaker 2 (48:34):
So nice all right, Anton, Hey, thank you for being
a caller. Thank you for being part of the team.
I hope you'll keep checking us out. Go ahead and
check us out on Patreon, follow us on TikTok. And yeah,
that was a good call.

Speaker 3 (48:48):
So you know, with that, I.

Speaker 2 (48:50):
Want to bring up our buddy, Aaron. Can we bring
up our buddy Aaron?

Speaker 4 (48:55):
There?

Speaker 3 (48:55):
He is there, he is the wonderful Aaron Jensen.

Speaker 2 (48:59):
Hello everybody, So thanks for joining us. You know, I
want to delve into I want to delve into the
topic that we wanted to discuss this week. Actually, John,
it's it's cool that you were here, that you're here
this week and you were here last week, because, uh,
this week's topic is kind of related and it was
essentially born out of the I think topic that you

(49:21):
and Christy were talking about last week. But you know,
you talk about the the the nature of Jesus, you know,
the level of mythology versus versus reality that can be
applied to him, and then you get into, you know,
the basis for for Christianity in a sense, uh, or
the thing that makes it unique, this this rapture. Uh,

(49:43):
And so I kind of wanted to talk about that,
you know, John, can you give us a rundown of
how people should you know, generically speaking, like what's the
best way, what's the easiest way to understand?

Speaker 3 (49:54):
Uh, the rapture?

Speaker 1 (49:56):
Well, so the rapture, I guess the easiest. I mean,
are you talking about like what happens in the rapture
or the theology surrounding the rapture, because like what happens
in the rapture, Well, supposedly everybody's gonna, like I guess,
disappear and like basically float up into Heaven. They're gonna
get called.

Speaker 3 (50:15):
Home by God.

Speaker 1 (50:16):
And everybody's gonna get taken up into Heaven. And that's
the point when this heaven and earth are are going
to pass away, and God's gonna recreate everything and I
new heaven and Earth. That's what Jesus actually talks about
in I believe it's Matthew somewhere in there when he
talks about how not a jod or tittle of the
Old Testament law is gonna go away until this heaven
and earth passways. Talking about this end time stuff this

(50:40):
apocalyptic sort of view of things, and so I mean
essentially everybody that's like Judgment Day right from the Terminator series.
It's essentially Judgment Day where everybody's gonna get judged and
are gonna get let into Heaven. There's multiple different ideas
around this, Like some people think that everybody that has died,

(51:01):
you know, since Jesus came or sort of stuck in
this purgatory, stuck waiting outside of the pearly gates waiting
for Judgment Day. I know there's I think that Judgment
Day just happens whenever you die, and so there's a
lot of different theologies surrounding it. But I think the
most important thing as far as the Rapture goes, is
that when Jesus was talking in the Gospels, and what
Paul understood specifically was that the rapture was to happen

(51:25):
within their lifetime, Yes, thank you, a lot of time.
It was supposed to happen, and that's the original context
of it.

Speaker 2 (51:32):
So I actually want to come back to that, and
that is that was the thing I tell you when
I was a young history major in college and I
took I took the Bible literature course, and I came
across that, it blew my mind and thus began my deconstruction.

Speaker 3 (51:51):
Well, I should say it.

Speaker 2 (51:52):
Kind of started before that, but once I heard that
and other things like that, like, hey, did you know
that it wasn't actually Satan in the Garden of Eden? Uh?

Speaker 3 (52:00):
My mind was blown.

Speaker 4 (52:01):
Right.

Speaker 2 (52:03):
I want to come back to that because I wanted
I want to skip to Aaron, who has has a
very interesting story of his own. But Aaron, your your
experience with understanding the rapture is not like other Christians,
is it? And so can you give us a little
bit of your background and tell us what was different
between the way that you were brought up in your
religion versus what typical other Christians might might understand the

(52:26):
rapture to be.

Speaker 7 (52:26):
Yeah, I was raised Mormon, and Mormon don't use the
words the rapture, uh. They The rapture is something that
happens after a distinct set of events that usher in
Jesus coming back again.

Speaker 5 (52:38):
Right.

Speaker 7 (52:39):
So, and there's gonna be wars and rumors of wars,
and there's gonna be a huge war where all the
nations are fighting against Israel, and there's a major bad
battle of armageddon on the plains around Jerusalem, and then
finally Jesus will come back. It will cleave the mountain
Olives into the mouth of Olives, the two and when
he comes back, that's when people will come up into
heaven to meet him as he descends down into the earth.

(53:02):
And I think that is would be the Mormon equivalent
of the Rapture. And so when people say, oh, the
rapture is going to happen, I said, well, no, because
all the other shit that's supposed to lead up to
it hasn't happened, right, because it's all very distinct in
Mormon theology, It's all very distinct events like two of
the apostles of the Church will be in literally in
Jerusalem while the battle is raging, you know, preaching the

(53:23):
gospel and fighting against and doing miracles, and they'll be
killed in the streets and they'll be lay dead in
the streets for three days and that's when Jesus Walls
will come back. So yeah, it's a little more involved
in Mormon theology and tide of very specific events that
lead up to it.

Speaker 2 (53:36):
Yeah, And that's that also, you know, requires some dissection
when you talk to members of different Christian cults, because
you know they or maybe not just a cult, but
you know different Christians in general, and you often say, well,
there's forty thousand different Christian religions and there's three million Christians,

(53:57):
so there's three different versions of God right, and three
different unders and or three million different understandings of Christianity.

Speaker 3 (54:02):
But some people say that those things are happening right now.
Others say they're not.

Speaker 2 (54:07):
We've heard them all, you know, kind of all world
events uh being translated into that before UH. And so yeah,
there's a there's a definitely a level of investigation that
is required to what level are these things happening to?

Speaker 3 (54:21):
What are they not?

Speaker 2 (54:21):
We We've had callers on talkithen who call in and say, hey,
well there are wars and rumors of wars, Like okay, well,
just like our first caller, when has there not been.

Speaker 3 (54:29):
Wars and rumors of wars?

Speaker 7 (54:31):
You'd be more specific right.

Speaker 2 (54:33):
That that that lack of specificity is actually really beneficial
to uh, to religion. And that brings me back to
the point that John made. So, yeah, what what did
it say? What did Jesus say? So I haven't pulled
up truly, I tell you this generation will certainly not
pass away until all these things have happened. Heaven and
earth will pass away, pass away, my words, will not

(54:53):
pass away. But then then there was the other one. Verily,
I say unto you, there are some standing here who
will not taste death till they see the Son of
Man coming. And you know, the most literal trans translation
of that being Jesus is.

Speaker 3 (55:08):
Coming back soon.

Speaker 2 (55:09):
And I think that that was, you know, the way,
the way I always understood it. And John, correct me
if I'm wrong, or tell me if you have a
different interpretation. But the way I understood that was definitely
anti Roman propaganda, like like the the the Hebrew cult
at the time writing these things was going to have
the last laugh And so what do you what do
you can you expand on that?

Speaker 1 (55:30):
Yeah, I mean the the was it revelation is to
be like sort of this end time sort of prophecy
given by Jesus after he had resurrected and everything. Uh,
I mean that was definitely anti Roman stuff, and it
was definitely directed at a particular point in time. And

(55:50):
I want to say that it was directed around the events, uh,
you know, concerning Nero. I want to say it's been
a while since I've looked at the Revelation stuff, but
it was definitely anti Roban sort of propaganda that was
supposed to, you know, coincide with what the Jews had
always been taught by God or by their scriptures about

(56:12):
the salvation of people. Because obviously, when Jesus came and
he eventually died on the cross and everything like that,
like that was a type of salvation that was provided,
but the Jews and the Jewish Christians at the time
were really looking for a more permanent salvation, uh, in
the here and now. And so that's why you've got

(56:32):
the Apostle Paul, and you've got the Gospels that are
treating this as if you know it's going to happen soon,
because you know that's what Jesus said would happen, or
that this is what it's is the traditional teaching of
the Jewish people. When the when the when the Messiah
comes back to provide the salvation and God decides to

(56:53):
save the remnant right of the Jewish people, that's what
that's just what's going to happen. Like it's a it's
kind of like the final you know, salvation that's to
be given, and so that's why you have all these
things leading up to it. And then of course you've
got all of the sort of justifying of why things

(57:14):
haven't happened yet, or you've got people playing with numbers
in the Bible in order to figure out when these
things are supposed to happen, because this is not, obviously
the first time it was supposedly supposed to be the rapture.
There was a great disappointment in like eighteen forty four
or something like that, and then you've just got one
failure after another, after another after another. And I think

(57:34):
even like the Mormons, I want to say, have had
you know, in time sort of predictions as well as
like Jehovah's witnesses have in the past. And so it's
just like everybody's trying with butt shot in order to
figure out when it's going to happen, because they can't
just accept the fact that God says you won't know
the day or the time it's going to come like

(57:56):
a thief in the night, and it's just going to
take you by surprise. I do have an interesting rapture
story though that I've told elsewhere, but basically, when I
was a kid. I remember one morning, it was a
Saturday morning or something like that. I turned on the
TV and I had been watching like T and T
the night before. I don't know if anybody remembers that channel,

(58:17):
but uh, I turned.

Speaker 7 (58:19):
On channel right, yeah, channel yeah, yeah, and the channel.

Speaker 1 (58:27):
I had it on that channel when I went to
sleep the night before, turned it on the next morning
and Left Behind was on. But it was Left Behind
right at the point where they're doing all the newscasts
where like everybody has disappeared. So me, not having watched
any news whatsoever because I'm a teenager, I'm like, oh shit,
did the rapture happen. I go around the house. I'm

(58:48):
trying to look for everybody. Nobody's home because it's just me,
and so I'm like, oh shit, it happened. Like I
come back and I look at the TV and it's like,
you know, of course Kirk Cameron comes up there. I'm like, oh,
it was just a movie, okay.

Speaker 3 (59:01):
Down the War of the World man.

Speaker 1 (59:03):
Yeah, yeah, I know it happened.

Speaker 2 (59:06):
So that's that's funny. So two things on that one.
Uh in nineteen ninety six, right before we have a
call coming up. By the way, so, uh, we are
gonna call her. If you can hear us, We're gonna
get to you in a second, but we gotta we
gotta close this out here. So so in nineteen ninety six,
when uh, man, what's that movie?

Speaker 3 (59:26):
Independence Day was coming out?

Speaker 2 (59:27):
Right, it was a big deal, big deal, like this
was gonna be a blockbuster, which it was, but before
it was actually released, our local news channel did like
this fake story about how aliens were invading. So they
set it up like a real news story and they
showed a picture of a of a UFO over New
York City, a clip from the movie, and over over

(59:50):
the White House, and uh, it was nighttime and my
my dad turned on the TV and he called my
brother and I and he goes, covin, you look at this,
And he tricked us big time, but we were scared shit.
And then this general gets on like the podium and
it says the Pentagon and he starts briefing and it
was the actor that played the general. And my mom
comes in and goes, wait.

Speaker 3 (01:00:10):
A minute, is it that guy? An actor? And then
they showed the clip.

Speaker 2 (01:00:13):
They showed the clip of the UFO blowing up the
White House, and my Dad was laughing and I was like,
you son of a gun, But I was scared shit.
But so I do want to close this out, but
I want to get to Aaron real quick. Aaron, So
on that note, you know, job brings up you know,
different kind of interpretations, predictions that the Mormons or other

(01:00:34):
sex might have. And in your experience growing up as
a Mormon, you know, what can you speak what can
you speak to on maybe some of these predictions or
some of the requirements that you had to adhere to,
maybe in order to be one of the saved. How
were you as a Mormon different or better off than
the other sex that surrounded you.

Speaker 7 (01:00:55):
I don't think that the Mormons. I didn't really get
a sense of doom and gloom and like you're gonna
go to Hell and you're gonna suffer. Mormers don't really
believe in a hell like that, you know, And the
Second Coming I never really heard. I never heard any
of the church leaders ever give a date on oh
he's coming back on this date. They were always very
careful to just make it, make it general. You would
read prophecies from some of the earlier prophets in the

(01:01:16):
church about oh yeah, Jesus isn't gonna come back until
New York burns to the ground and Boston floods and
other just you know, just stuff like that. Stuff that's
going to happen, probably could happen randomly anyway, right.

Speaker 3 (01:01:27):
Yeah, vague like vague, right, allows them to weasel their
way out of out of an explanation, you know.

Speaker 7 (01:01:35):
Yeah, what was crazy about the Mormon churches, They also
have these things called patriarchal blessings. So every geographic reach
of the church is broken down in the stakes, and
each steak has like ten congregations. We each stak has
what's called a patriarch, and at some point in your life,
usually when you're as a teenager, you go to this
patriarch and they give you a blessing, which is basically
personal scripture from God, and it tells you like about

(01:01:57):
your life and what you should do with your life,
and what God want you to do with your life,
and what's going to happen. And so many of those
patrichal blessings have people saying you'll be alive when Jesus
comes again, your your or your kids will be alive
and when the Second Coming happens, and it hasn't It
hasn't happened yet.

Speaker 2 (01:02:14):
I'd be interested to know how they how they get
themselves out of that one. And to John's to John's point,
you know, there you end up starting to have to
play with numbers, even for the promo for this week,
for the promo for this week, and the comments on
YouTube and Facebook, everybody was saying, well, you know, actually
one day for us is a thousand years for God

(01:02:34):
or a thousand days for God. It's like, oh, well, funny,
I don't remember ever hearing that until you had to
start like, yeah, explaining your way into making sense, which
you you definitely have to take some artistic license into
getting getting there.

Speaker 7 (01:02:48):
It reminds me of the prophecy that Jesus said, you know,
surely someone in the center of my voice will be
alive when I come back. And in Mormon theology there's
a whole apology just explanation for that, where one of
the apostles, John actually never did die and he's still alive.

Speaker 3 (01:03:05):
Right, he's been.

Speaker 7 (01:03:05):
Alive ever since, right, Yeah, And and so we're waiting
for John to die so that Jesus.

Speaker 3 (01:03:11):
Can become back. That's that's a hoop, right there. Hey, John,
you muted.

Speaker 1 (01:03:16):
Yeah, yeah, I got it. There's this interesting show called,
I want to say it's called Forever, and it was
only like one season long, but like one of the
big twists at the end of the season that it
was is that the guy, the guy, he can't die,
Like he like will jump off a building or something
like that, and he just pops up somewhere else and

(01:03:38):
he's alive again. Right, we don't know why. Well, it
turns out he was Lazarus, and so like God resurrected
him or Jesus resurrected him, and he can no longer die,
and so like every time he supposedly dies, he just manifests,
like in this river or something like that. And it's
just it's so crazy to to consider that particular part

(01:03:59):
of the theology.

Speaker 3 (01:04:01):
We could keep going on.

Speaker 2 (01:04:02):
I've got so many anecdotes and like experiences from being
a child in like confirmation and communion class as a
Lutheran where people said weird shit and predicted all the
end times. And you know, I'll have to save that
for another day. We got to get moving and we're
gonna keep Aaron up. Actually, so cru let's keep Aaron up.
We're gonna go to another caller, but first before we

(01:04:23):
do that, I am going to acknowledge our top five patrons.
So we talked earlier about Patreon on the show, and
we do have people that follow us on Patreon who
donate to us, who support us, and we are totally
thankful for you, extremely appreciative of you being part of
the talk Ethan community. I want to list them out.
Number one Oops All Singularity, two Dingleberry Jackson, three co

(01:04:47):
leve Helvetti for Ja Carlton, five Moldred d Malcontent. I
love that. That is like a super villain name and
an honorable mention. Teresa running Allen. Thank you so much
to everybody again who gives to us on Patreon.

Speaker 3 (01:05:03):
Please consider supporting us.

Speaker 2 (01:05:04):
Go check us out at tiny dot cc, forward slash, Patreon,
thch And then we have superchats. Someone to get through
these super chats, oh man, Thank you to everybody who's
supporting us.

Speaker 3 (01:05:14):
And then we've got a caller. So caller, we got
Josh on the line. Stick around. We're coming to you next.
But here we go An Johnson five dollars.

Speaker 2 (01:05:23):
Happy Sunday to the cast, crew and audience at Talkiathen,
thank you so much. And Josh el God commanded the
to call in. Maybe that's maybe that's Josh who we
have on the line.

Speaker 3 (01:05:35):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:05:36):
Josh l my friend dark Wolfe said, none of you
listen to God's command to call in and refute these atheists.
He will not rapture until there is a good convo.

Speaker 3 (01:05:46):
So all right, cool.

Speaker 2 (01:05:47):
So Josh gave us a nice yeah. Yeah, people are
waiting for the rapture. No, they've got a call first
if they want the rapture. That's actually the eighth sign.
So Jesus told you they were seven, but there's another one.
And then we have Ann Johnson again two dollars. I
tried to get raptured, but they threw me back. And
I think they threw us all back. If the rapture

(01:06:09):
did indeed happen on the twenty third, uh, and we
just don't know because we're still here.

Speaker 3 (01:06:13):
We've all been thrown back.

Speaker 2 (01:06:15):
And on that note, we are going to go to Josh,
he him and Georgia who wants to discuss the existence
of a historical Jesus. So Josh, you're on with Jimmy,
you're on with John and you're on with Aaron, How
the heck can we help you?

Speaker 4 (01:06:27):
How the heck can we help Well, that's a loaded question,
but but I'm just merely here just to debate the
idea that a a historical Jesus existed, not the mythical
you know, water and the wine walking on water one
and then just just rapid firing. If we are to
believe that Josesis's accounts are true, he speaks of many

(01:06:50):
eesues we talk about in Greek, right, Theesus being the
literal formation of Jesus in his writing, So like, you know,
there's the Asus, son of an Issus, son of sen
p s ISU's son of Gamliel, Like he speaks of
many ges or e Esus or Jesus is right, So
do you know, I believe we can we can be

(01:07:11):
you know, pedantic persephony here and agree at least age
Jesus existed, but probably not the.

Speaker 1 (01:07:18):
Yeah, but I think that this would actually be sort
of like a reference fallacy because we're not actually referencing
just a general Jesus. There's a very specific Jesus that
we're actually talking about. When we're saying Jesus, you know,
didn't exist, we're not saying that a person named Jesus
didn't exist. We're talking about whether or not the Jesus
that uh not not necessarily the magical form of Jesus

(01:07:41):
that the New Testament claims, but just like a Jesus
that inspired those tales, right, and typically people go with
a minimal historical Jesus.

Speaker 4 (01:07:52):
Sorry, go ahead, yes, obviously, and I will, I will
play guilty to the charges A laid before me. And
being specific there's possibly you know, yes, on paper alleged
Jesus is, but not the one we're basically pointing towards.

Speaker 1 (01:08:09):
You're right, right, But would you would you write so?
I mean, would you say that Christianity is based on
a historical figure name Jesus or do you have a
different view of that?

Speaker 4 (01:08:21):
No? I would I mean that is clearly the entire
sales pitch right, that somehow you know obviously that this
specific historical Jesus existed, which I don't agree with this
specific historical the account alleged.

Speaker 1 (01:08:37):
Yeah, it's interesting that you bring up Jesus Anonius been
an Honius in Josephus's work, because I think that the
story told of how Jesus been an hoanius in Josephus's account,
dies is actually a good skeleton for the passion of
Jesus in Uh, in the Gospel of Mark.

Speaker 5 (01:08:59):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (01:08:59):
There's a lot a lot of different parallels that are
the same in both, and I think that whoever authored
Mark probably used Josephus in order to generate his whole
story there about Jesus's passion.

Speaker 4 (01:09:13):
Yeah, there are So that's where he was warning Jerusalem
before its fall, right, So that was that was that
that was that specific Jesus. And then the the other one,
which is the Isus of Gamaliel was a high priest
and there was some story about the fall of the
temple or something to that effect as well. So yeah,

(01:09:34):
well yeah, there's a lot of referencing, right.

Speaker 1 (01:09:38):
But also with the Jesus been an Hoyous story, there's
also the fact that the Romans are the ones that
killed Jesus been anonyous in his attack when he was
attacking or whatnot. And I think that that was probably
like the seed thing that had the gospels actually having
the Romans crucified Jesus instead of having the used to it,

(01:10:00):
because it kind of that's one of the things that's
kind of weird in the story of Jesus as presented
in the Gospels is that Jesus makes all these allusions
to the Jews being his downfall and how the Jews
have turned away from God and the Jews are not
choosing God and all this other stuff, and he even
in some in some of the later gospels. Uh, Jesus
actually presents a parallel parable of the It's like a

(01:10:26):
great I want to say great farmer. That's not what
they're called. I can't remember what they're called right now,
but uh, it's a story of of like a parable
of like this guy who you know, has these people
taking care of his of his great orchard or whatever
great fields, and they don't take care of them, and

(01:10:47):
they actually send people away, you know, they they totally
reject the owner of it and what he wants and everything.
And then finally the greape orchard field's father been vineyard.
Thank you vineyard. Yes, the vineyard owner sends his son
to go and deal with it, and they actually kill

(01:11:08):
his son. And so like this is Jesus trying to
explain how the Jews are going to be the ones
to ultimately kill Jesus. But then you've got the Romans
that kill Jesus at the hands of the Jews. But
I think the reason why that they have the Romans
kill Jesus is probably because of something to do with
that Jesus been an honiest story.

Speaker 4 (01:11:27):
Yeah, I would agree with with the reference or engagement
quote unquote for that story as an additional lore in
the text for the for the Christo Jesus idea. So
feel free to send me below to all of the watchers.

Speaker 2 (01:11:44):
So, Josh, are you is your claim that the fact
that there are multiple accounts of someone named Jesus cancels
out an actual historical Jesus for the foundation of Christianity.

Speaker 4 (01:11:57):
I would say for now we have no direct because
because the other problem is is that you know, there's
also questions about the legitimacy of Josephus's writings and other
writings like tacits As, etc. So I would say there's
no there's no external evidence that would still prove that.

(01:12:19):
To me, it puts you in a good reason for belief. Personally,
it's still just the internal circles of the Aramaic and
what was later written Greek portions of the Bible. There's
no real true firsthand or even secondhand external accounts, So
I would still be in the campos. I don't believe
a historical Jesus of Nazareth that is touted to be

(01:12:43):
the son of juohage existence.

Speaker 2 (01:12:44):
Well, right, like this, yeah, and I'm I'm okay in
discussions about Jesus, granting an actual historical Jesus as the
baseline of where we end up when we whittle away
all of the supernatural stuff. In this discussion about like, well,
was Jesus the son of God? Well, no, we don't

(01:13:06):
know that there's any proof, just like we don't have
any proof that an actual historical Jesus existed.

Speaker 3 (01:13:11):
But what's the most basic level that we could get
down to?

Speaker 2 (01:13:15):
The only thing that I could that I could reasonably
grant somebody, is that a human being with the name Jesus,
who was one hundred percent human, who was murdered. Maybe
that is probably the furthest I can go. And then
what so what you know, now you've got the burden
of proof on your side. But you know, I'm always

(01:13:38):
I'm always pretty comfortable because we can't In the same
way that we don't have any proof that that historical
Jesus lived, we don't have any proof that he didn't.
And again it's not on the person not making the
claim to have to prove it. But then again, we
can still have that conversation as if that person did,
and we don't have to kind of presuppose non existence

(01:14:01):
for that conversation to continue. So I'm always comfortable, and
you know, I'm.

Speaker 3 (01:14:05):
Not arguing with you in a sense.

Speaker 2 (01:14:06):
I just I'm always comfortable granting a theist a human
Jesus and then saying, okay, now convince me. So I
never really had a problem with that.

Speaker 4 (01:14:15):
Yeah, and in most discussions I am willing to grant
that as well. It doesn't give him divinity or you know, magic,
and that's where the more expansive goalposts would need to reach, right.

Speaker 2 (01:14:29):
And the thing that I like about that actually is
in reading the Gospels, as you continue on from start
to finish, or from the one that came first to
the one that came last, Jesus gets more supernatural, doesn't he.
It's almost like, hey, the first story is not working.
We gotta add some stuff, and we got to make
them sound a little bit more powerful. And by the

(01:14:49):
time you get to John, you know, at least in
the Gospels that the church was willing to keep right.
Let's not forget Christians that are watching that your forefathers
got together and said, no, this stuff doesn't doesn't really
suit our messaging. So we're just gonna kind of cast
it aside. In the ones that you end up with,
even there there are contradictions, there are dichotomies, and the

(01:15:12):
only thing that you can kind of whittle it down
to is, all right, we've got this person. But as
you move on from Mark Matthew Luke, and of course
it's not the order that they're placed in, but you
know the order that they were written. As you move on,
it just keeps getting, you know, the story keeps getting
It's like a thick game of telephone. You know, it
just keeps getting more expansive and including more things. And

(01:15:33):
by the time you end up, by the time you
get to the end, you're you're you end up with this, uh,
this deity that's all powerful that is is kind of
not like what you started with. So I always found
that fascinating, and I actually like giving the historical human
Jesus so that we can have that conversation. Aaron, if
I wanted to kick it over to you, you know,

(01:15:53):
in your experience as a Mormon, how would this stuff
have have sat with you and in you congregation while
you were a believer?

Speaker 7 (01:16:03):
Well, I mean, of course Jesus was a historical person obviously, right,
but there was no I think Warmers are probably the
same camp as other Christians. The Bible is accepted as true.
All the words in the Bible are accepted are true,
even despite all the contradictions and the differences between the
the between the Gospels and things like that. So they're
they're in the camp of most of most Christianity on

(01:16:25):
what legs they stand on. But what's interesting, there's a
really great book called Lost Christianities that I would encourage
people to read by bart Erhman. It's fascinating on all
the different versions of Christianity that actually existed in the
first century. And it's my understanding of the first mentions
of Jesus actually written down. Were Paul's letters? Were there
previous mentions of Jesus? Or is Paul the first?

Speaker 5 (01:16:45):
Yeah?

Speaker 7 (01:16:45):
So Paul Paul's letters are the first. And this is
like twenty years I think after Jesus supposedly died, is
when we get the first written account of Jesus. I mean,
think about if somebody today was started writing, was it non?
Was it a little bit later than twenty Was it forty?
I thought it was like fifty eighty or something.

Speaker 1 (01:17:05):
Yeah, it was, so Paul was writing around fifty to
fifty five is when he was starting, and then the
Gospels were written until the seventies. An interesting point though,
with Paul being the first one to mention a Jesus,
do you know that he doesn't actually mention anybody that
knew Jesus while he walked around on earth.

Speaker 3 (01:17:22):
He only Christ.

Speaker 1 (01:17:23):
He only mentions revelation and scripture as where he gets
his information from. And so our first instance of this
Jesus character being mentioned in history comes from somebody that
painstakingly makes the point to remove himself from any human
source or any historical source, and instead places all of

(01:17:45):
his knowledge on hallucinations and reading the scriptures.

Speaker 7 (01:17:49):
Actually study the actual historical record that we have. Man,
it just seems real iffy.

Speaker 4 (01:17:55):
You know.

Speaker 7 (01:17:56):
That's like somebody running some nonfiction today about somebody that
lived twenty years ago, but there's no there's no record
of it between now and twenty years ago. I mean today,
That would be really hard with the Internet and all
the records that we keep nowadays. But that's essentially what happened,
and then other people kind of took took it upon
themselves to tell different stories. And I like what you're saying,

(01:18:16):
Jimmy about the about the the different gospels. Why have
a new gospel if you don't have something new to say, right,
It's kind of like people some people are going to
lock this analogy. But it's kind of like sequels in movies, right,
every movie has to do something more and has to
ratchet up the tension and has to increase, you know,
the powers of the It's like kind of the Rambo.
It's like Rambo Rambo two and Rambo three. You know,

(01:18:38):
the first Rambo he just out in the woods, you know,
trying to stay safe. But in Rambo three, now he's
taking down helicopters.

Speaker 3 (01:18:44):
Right, It's like you got up the ante.

Speaker 7 (01:18:46):
And I think that's the same thing with the gospels,
is the just they had to slowly up the end,
else why would they have something to say?

Speaker 3 (01:18:53):
They have to go ahead and weigh in.

Speaker 5 (01:18:56):
Well.

Speaker 4 (01:18:56):
I typically find it very interesting that you know, even
in our conversation you probably could not reference something I
said five minutes ago in its exact entirety. So we're
expected to believe that by second hand sources thirty or
fifty years after the fact, we can remember verbat and
what somebody had said. Yeah, we have no writing utensils

(01:19:17):
or anything like that. But it does fit a very
storied history when we look towards early Hebrew writings and scriptures,
of expanding the magnificence in glory of a story to
fit a narrative. Right, So that's where no, I completely agree.
Of course, it will continuously expand on itself to them

(01:19:38):
that way, the book is a quote unquote good sell
to gain followers, I suppose.

Speaker 1 (01:19:44):
Well, And I'll tell you the Christian apologetic against that
is that the Christians at that time they were well
trained Jews, and they had this one particular tradition.

Speaker 3 (01:19:57):
Where they were really good at.

Speaker 1 (01:19:58):
Remembering oral tra tis to the point where they can
repeat them verbatim and write them down later. But I
contest that in that there's no actual indication of that
tradition being employed when Paul was writing or when the
Gospels were being written. And also that just inserting that

(01:20:21):
information into Paul's writings or the Gospels is not all
that compelling, considering that when we look at other historical
sources for like other historical people, you actually have like
a historical basis, like in evidence for them, as opposed
to the Jesus figure of Paul, who all we have

(01:20:41):
are already written scriptures that they're reinterpreting to find new
information about the Messiah. And then Paul's hallucinations about said savior.

Speaker 5 (01:20:52):
Yeah, that sounds like a marvelous note to end on.

Speaker 4 (01:20:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (01:20:56):
In my view is like what has better explanatory power?

Speaker 5 (01:20:59):
What is better explanat power?

Speaker 3 (01:21:00):
There's a there is a.

Speaker 7 (01:21:02):
Deity that loves us all and wants us to know
him and have a personal relationship with him, and so
he gave us these vague scriptures that aren't specific, that
contradict each other or these are all stories that we
make up as humans to try and understand the world.
I mean, what, which which has better explanatory power? I
know which side I lean on?

Speaker 3 (01:21:19):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:21:19):
Yeah, Hey, Josh, wonderful, wonderful call. Thank you so much
for giving us a call. Hey Josh, are you the
same Josh that gave us super chats?

Speaker 1 (01:21:29):
You?

Speaker 3 (01:21:30):
Ah right, thank you very much, Thank you Sir, I
really appreciate that.

Speaker 2 (01:21:36):
But Josh, keep tuning in, keep watching our show. Very
very good discussion. I hope the viewers get a lot
out of that. But we are gonna get moving, so
I hope you have a fine Sunday and the rest
of us are going to go and enjoy our Sunday. So, gentlemen,
I had a really good time with both of you today.

(01:21:56):
I had a lot of This was a great conversation,
great show. John, Thank you for expanding my knowledge of
ancient culture and of ancient Christian doctrine. Aaron, thank you
very much for bringing your perspective and your experience from
the cult that you grew up in, and for joining

(01:22:17):
us on that last call. That was wonderful. And so folks,
just want to remind you you can follow us on TikTok.
You can watch us live Tuesdays at three pm Central
and Thursdays at seven pm Central, and you can also
access that content on Patreon.

Speaker 3 (01:22:33):
So go follow us on Patreon.

Speaker 2 (01:22:34):
Don't forget to tune into the Atheist Experience today at
four point thirty pm Central, where the Talk Heathen hosts
are taken over and J Mike was kidnapped and kind
of not coming back until you tune into our show
and tell us how great we are.

Speaker 3 (01:22:49):
So send us some super chats.

Speaker 2 (01:22:51):
Continue to like and subscribe and share our channels and
keep tuning in.

Speaker 3 (01:22:55):
This is the book.

Speaker 7 (01:22:56):
Today's the Talk Heathen Experience.

Speaker 2 (01:22:58):
That's right, hey, that not a bad title. Not a
bad title. And gentlemen, this is the part where we
give our lover rings out. I'm sending my lover rings
out to my lovely wife. We are going to be
celebrating our five year anniversary very soon. Who do you
guys want to send out loverings to?

Speaker 1 (01:23:16):
You know, I want to send out loverings to all
of the Christians that didn't get raptured and are now,
you know, suffering the consequences of their giving attitudes because
they were going to get raptured. I feel really bad
for them. So much much love to them in this
time of need.

Speaker 3 (01:23:33):
Much love Christians. Aaron, who are you going out to?

Speaker 7 (01:23:36):
You know, I know this is going to be this
is kind of cheesy, but I'm going to send it
out to all of humanity. We're all brothers and sisters.
We're all here trying to make a living. We're all
here trying to survive. Let's talk, Let's have conversations, Let's
let's admit when things are made up and move on
from there.

Speaker 3 (01:23:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:23:51):
Absolutely, And remember if you don't believe, well, this is
your community. We appreciate you being here. But if you
do believe, we don't hate you. We are just not convinced.

Speaker 5 (01:24:20):
We want the truth.

Speaker 3 (01:24:22):
So watch Truth Wanted live Fridays at seven pm Central
Call five one two nine nine nine two four two,
or visit tiny dot cc forward slash call tw

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