DCs Kingdom Come: The Genesis

In our opening episode, "The Genesis," we embark on an exploration into the rich tapestry that forms the backbone of the groundbreaking graphic novel, Kingdom Come.

Delve with us into the depths of its creation process, as we unveil the inspirations, and artistic muses that guided its creators. We examine the historical context of its inception - the societal themes, cultural tensions, and personal philosophies that played pivotal roles in shaping the narrative. We navigate through the essential elements of the storyline, breaking down its complex characters, the socio-political landscape, and its vivid, thought-provoking artwork.

This episode serves as your compass, guiding you into the heart of Kingdom Come's universe. Join us on this riveting journey as we decode the elements that transformed this graphic novel into a timeless masterpiece. Let's journey back to the Genesis!

-----

Check out the Christian Nerd HQ Podcast Network! Episodes from member podcasts release Monday through Friday! Follow @ChristianNerdHQ on all the social networks!

Monday: Christian Nerds Unite Podcast
Tuesday: Tatooine Sons: A Pop Culture Podcast
Wednesday: Fangirling Over Jesus
Thursday: The Reverend and the Reprobate
Friday: Speaking Nerdy

Interested in checking out The Movie Marketing Podcast? CLICK HERE!

Looking for more episodes? https://podfollow.com/tatooine-sons-a-pop-culture-podcast/home

Join our Facebook Community SPECIFICALLY for Star Wars Dads! > https://www.facebook.com/groups/starwarsdads

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Rebellions built on hope. All right, this is tattooin Sons, the only
fan podcast named Achannon's Star Wars creatureand to be endorsed by the writer and
the director of The Last Jedi,Ryan Johnson, the best Star Wars movie.
How you guys doing good? SoI was having a conversation today with
the head of advertising for an independentstudio, Okay studio, an agency that

(00:23):
works with a bunch of independent studios, and he's like, so I checked
you guys, I checked you outbefore this meeting. He says, My
brother is a huge Star Wars fan. Okay. He says, he listens
to tattooin Sons. You got hishis his endorsement. Oh wow, we
have this meeting. I was like, that's pretty it is pretty cool.
And then m bronco deva Broncos mediainsider, like goes to all the training

(00:46):
camp stuff, does the daily podcastabout the Broncos, all of that,
like in the locker room kind ofguy for for the Broncos. He I
was replying to one of his tweetstoday about the Broncos and he's like,
by the way, I listen toyou guys podcast all the time. It's
really awesome. Oh wow, that'scrazy. It's a crazy day. It's
got a while. It's kind ofcool. We're gonna change things up a
little bit. Okay, we're justa little bit. So we've been we've

(01:08):
been doing a lot of you know, kind of reaction to movies, reaction
to TV series. That's kind ofthe way this show has been from the
beginning. We're gonna we're gonna trysomething different. Okay, Babe, Nate's
going to be excited about this.I am. So we're gonna spend We're
gonna do an eight episode series,okay, looking at everything surrounding DC Comics.

(01:34):
Kingdom Comes series from nineteen ninety six. Good series. It is a
good series. I've actually read thewhole thing, which is rare for it's
only four issues. It's also twoD. There's about two yes, like
they're big, big issues because itwas released in a format of else Worlds,
which usually longer issues. So thisweek we're going to talk about the

(01:57):
Genesis, which is that as areference to might as well, right,
you know, there's a very biblicalstoryline in Revelation, right, So we'll
start with Genesis and then we'll dothat after this little message from one of
our friends over the Christian Nerd HQ. This is Tattoine Suns. We are
the Reverend the Reburbate, just twobest buds interviewing people who have no business
talking to. I'm Lucas Pinkard,I'm Dan Gibson. Every Thursday we interview

(02:22):
somebody else from our favorite fandoms andyours. You can check those interviews out
on the Christian Nerd HQ network.You can find us on YouTube at Rev
Rep podcast at Reverend Rep dot com, and if you can't remember our name,
just go to Bacon Bacon Office dotcom. It's way easier to find
new episodes of every Thursday. Thankyou guys for supporting Christian Nerd HQ and

(02:43):
check out The Reverend the Reprobate.It's true. True was the name of
the porg on the millennium Falcon Forceis strong in my family? What do
you think his name us? It'sa big moment. I am a Jedi

(03:07):
like my father before me. MaybeTurbos do oh do not? At least
no, try Turbis Pablo. Ifyou're listening to this live stream, that

(03:28):
pork's name is now Turbis. It'sa good star wars name. We're not
done yet. These guys recorded awsomepodcast taturin Sis. Everybody listened. He
is I don't know why. Whydo you think he think? I just

(03:49):
kind of pictured him as being likean older, an older guy. Maybe
it's because of his like his kindof older style. How old do you
think he is? Like really,like legitimately he is like like currently,
yeah, I've saved forties or well, that's just probably not even possible because
he wrote this and he was alreadyan established artist in nineteen ninety six,

(04:10):
so he's got to be in hisfifties or beyond. So yeah, but
I expected him to be older thanwould you not? Okay, so so,
but Jim Lee that old. Hedid comics in the nineties. That's
true. That's true, Jim.But Jim Lee is is not young either,
No, he's not. He's aboutthe same as Alex Room anyway.
Anyway, Welcome to Dat Tween Suns, a pop culture podcast. We believe

(04:32):
that pop culture is the mythology ofthis generation. That there is a story
it is excuse me, written onour souls, and that these myths speak
to that story. And that iswhy we're beginning a new eight episode series
this week on DC Comics Kingdom,come all the way, Like I said,
from nineteen ninety six. Nice,So I was not alive, was

(04:54):
about five years old. Nineteen ninetysix was the year I met your mother.
Wow, that's why. And let'slet's just like pivot this in.
Let's pivot this entire series and justdo a how I met your mother Katherine
Sons addition of that. Maybe notso it only took gal a year when

(05:14):
you met together. I told herI was marrying her, Not on our
second day. Not ser I metyour mother was We were engaged in four
weeks. So um, we hada little little tip, our little little
nuggetive of trivia. We were beingwe I was asking your mother to marry
us when the Centennial Park Olympic bombingwas taking place. Wow, that's a

(05:35):
weird. It literally was happening inthe moment that that, Uh I was
asking your mother. It was explosive. So um, okay, all right,
Sam, So uh yeah you've readit. I have. Actually,
what are your read it this year? What are your general thoughts on this
series? It? Um, itwell surpassed any like expectations are or thoughts

(06:00):
I had going into it. Ijust heard, you know from Nathan that
he loves the series, and Ithink Pastor Stewart said that it's his favorite.
Lucas was talking to you about itjust this week, Lucas from Reverend
and the Reprobate, right, Samor Nate yea, and yeah, just
everyone talked about how great it wasand how it followed a pastor and not
like superheroes. I'm like, oh, it's interesting. But the complex story
and the different look that we getat the characters and what a possible future

(06:25):
could be, coupled with a biblicalnarrative that was executed really really well.
It wasn't over like over heavy handedor anything. Made for a really like
impactful story. Plus, I don'tthink this is I think we probably mentioned
this before, but Nate and Iwill both probably say that Alex Ross is

(06:46):
our favorite comic artist. Really,he's inspired, He's a phenomenal artist.
So we're talking about him for thewhole series where he does not just the
cover art, but the interior arttoo, had an effect. I think.
And you said this was in thelast within the last twelve eighteen months
you guys have it might have beenthis calendar year twenty twenty three that I
read it. I don't remember,like you know, two detailed um from

(07:11):
my reading. I think as wetalked, yeah, I definitely think it
will come back well. And youjust read it again today. I did,
but originally all all of it.But you originally read this, like
very early on in your comments experience, how old do you think you were
when you originally read it? Maybethirteen or fourteen? Okay, so this
is very four or five years ago, very heavy to read. Um at
that age, it's difficult to understand. It was even slightly difficult for me

(07:34):
to understand now. But I wasable to get it and understand it all,
which was good. It's much betternow that I've read it. Um.
But you liked it. I didlike it before, but I like
it even more now because I thoughtbefore I'm like, this is just a
really cool superhero story. I'm like, no, this is just an influential,
really amazing, well told story withart that surpasses some of what we

(07:55):
have today, and it's inspired generationsof artists like Lieber May and a bunch
of other hyperrealistic artists that we havenow. It's been amazing well, it's
gonna be fun to talk about it, Sam, what do you uh,
you know, we've talked a littlebit about what the plan for this episode
or this series is. Um,with this going forward, what are what
can listeners expect from a podcast seriesabout Kingdom come. What are some of

(08:16):
the things that we'll discuss, Well, you know we're today we're talking about,
um, you know, the certainthemes and concepts that are discussed within
the series, and then the historyof the history and kind of the thing
surrounding the story. And then eventuallywe'll we'll kind of dive in a little
bit more on the specific narrative itself, talking about that, bringing down some

(08:37):
of the characters and and things likethat, just kind of giving it each
episode kind of taking a more detailedlook at something else in the series.
And of course, um, withthis series having a lot of biblical tie
ins to it, Um, youknow, you can expect us to to
throw in our own classic tattooing suns. Yeah, classic tattooing sons look into

(09:00):
this story. So it's it's likethe perfect starting point for us for for
this new yeah series. Yeah,I think it's gonna be fun to do
this now Nate, You're the aseveryone that listens to us normally knows,
you're the resident comic book super nerdin the in this in this group.
So what is the significance of KingdomCome within the larger DC universe from your

(09:22):
understands? Difficult to explain because umit doesn't have much influence into the larger
DC continuity due to the fact thatbeing an else world's story. So for
those who don't know what that is, explained, else Worlds is um explained
as stories that could or could nothave happened in the larger universe of DC.
On the infinite earths, they're migions, legends and myths, migiens.

(09:46):
That's what we're gonna call legends,migiens, legends and myths that have been
told throughout the stories and that arefrom other earths that we don't know if
our true. We're not Gotham byGaslight is in the else world stories.
So it's like what if in Marvel, Yes it is, it is what

(10:07):
if we Marvel? I mean wehave a Superman speeding Bullet, which was
basically what if Superman landed in Gothamwith the Waynes instead of in Kansas Kent
and the elseworld's storylines are going tocontinue in the DC universe films, yes,
because they're going to create like Batman, the Batatman, Joker, Superman,
and Lois. All of those aregoing to be the world stories.

(10:28):
Um But as far as the significanceon the DC world, like in comics
and things like that, did itchange anything in the way that stories were
told in the DC universe? Didit? You know, help me understand?
It helped us see more and morallycomplex characters through that, and didn't
kind of let us see that thesesuperheroes are not always right. I really

(10:50):
show that they can be human aswell. Because, um, as we
saw in the DC Superpowered documentary,kind of the rise at that point was
anti heroes and Punisher and all ofthose type of characters because they were edgy
and cool and didn't care and weren'ttold what to do by anybody and all
this stuff and kind of was fittinginto that nineties mindset of what was kind

(11:15):
of popular back then. But thisreally showed that the superheroes that were at
that point considered campy and cheesy.And while we had some things like the
Dark Knight returns and killing Joke andNightfall. By that point, it was
still shown as those are these superheroes, but we want to see more of
these anti heroes, these more downto earth, grounded, gritty character in
the gray area. And this showedthat every superhero has that gray area.

(11:41):
Every superhero is morally complex and notcheesy and not campy, and there's a
lot more to these characters that wedidn't know, and so this really was
able to show that if the storyis told correctly, we really can see
how these characters are well thought outand well created and can inspire stories that

(12:03):
don't need to be edgy and gritty. They can still have that hopeful superhero
tone to them, which this definitelyhas that hopeful superhero tone, but also
the gritty, the kind of thedevastating side of what we see with superheroes.
This shows that a lot too.It's well well balanced. That's interesting.
Let's talk a little bit about thebackground of this storyline. And you

(12:28):
guys already mentioned Alex Ross, whichis obviously an amazing artist's If you are
listening to this and you don't knowwho Alex Ross is, but you're a
nerd culture person, you know alexis. You just don't realize it. His
art is everywhere, extremely influential.This art for iron Man, I love
it. It's Spider Man everything.He's done so much art for so many

(12:48):
people. Absolutely talk a little bitabout who Mark Wade and Alex Ross are
and kind of what led them tocreate Kingdom Come Well all at Nate kind
of take the lead of this,but I did want to say something,
and we were getting ready for thisfor this podcast, and I was kind
of changing the clothes and stuff,and I was looking at my wall of

(13:09):
comics, right Ironman comics, andI saw that one of the issues was
written by Mark Wade as the allNew, All Different Adventures. So I
thought that was that was kind ofcool, you know, seeing that in
preparation for today's podcast. But Nate, you probably a little bit more familiar
with his works just a little bitwhen it comes to Mark Wade. I
haven't read much of his stuff.I'm currently reading his current series that he's
doing for Superman, which first issuewas Fantastic which Last Superman Last Days of

(13:33):
Lex Luthor. It was great andI can't wait to see where it goes.
But um, not super familiar withwhat Mark Wade has done, but
I know, I think he dida lot of that. He was kind
of got cut his teeth on theFlash did and he honestly stuff he did
one of his big things, oneof his most influential writers for Daredevil.
Um, it's kind of Frank Millerthan Mark Wade that really set Daredevil into

(13:54):
the set of who he is,which I got to read both frankamiliar and
Mark Wade's run. But he reallyHe also did Superman birth Right, which
is going to be used as astarting point and kind of a comic that
influences Superman legacy as well. Sothis guy is a big deal in the
comics world. He's done a lotof stuff that has been super influential in

(14:16):
the comics, and not only includingwhat I just mentioned, but he also
did Kingdom Come and Kingdom Come.It can be described in the same breath
of influence on comics as Watchman has. It has been super important for comics,
and they kind of patterned the waythat this story was told after the
Watchman. They did. It wasthe morally complex superheroes and the kind of

(14:41):
what is right and wrong with thesesuperheroes, these these gods, what if
they're left unchecked? And I havenot stuff in there that I still have
to kind of I'm not sure ifI want to be. But it's also
in Time Magazine's one hundred Greatest Novelsof All Time. It's never one out
of print, it's never gone outof print. The one It is the

(15:03):
most popular and most influential comic ofall time, right behind Mouse as well,
So what Mouse? Which want topull? Yeah, I mean comics
are super important. People don't giveenough credit to how important comics can be
on general literature, but this hadno small shortage of influence. This also
one a total of five Eisners andHarvey's combined, which our book awards.

(15:28):
Eiseners are specific awards for comics,and they have that awards ceremony every comic
on at San Diego. And so, I mean five awards for one series
is that's that is crazy And it'sbasically unheard of by now, and it's
only a four issue series exactly,And so it really showed what comics can
be. This comic helped put themedium of comics back on the map.

(15:54):
It was like everybody looks at thenineties and the eighties, it's like this
super important, really popular Age ofcomics because there were so many big issues
that came out. You had thedeath of Superman in the Reign of the
Superman, and you had Killing Jokeand Dark Knight Returns and Nightfall and you
know, Man Without Fear and BornAgain Daredevil and so many big series that

(16:19):
came out back in the eighties.And there was also a tough time too
for exactly it was a really toughtime compared to now. It was super
tough. Marvel went bankrupt in thenineties and DC was pretty much close to
that point too. It was asuper important time, but nobody was buying
comics, and Kingdom Come really putthis back on the map as comics being

(16:41):
important for the general public to realize. And then of course we had comic
book movies starting to come up,but with comics, Kingdom Come was the
main starting point. Well, Ithink it's also important to note, you
know, you guys were talking aboutthe dark, gritty nature of comic books
in the night these and you know, I think that we've already talked about

(17:03):
as we started talking about what thefuture of this podcast is going to be
and how we're going to do moreconversations like this around series. One of
the things that we've we've talked aboutwas potentially sometime in the next twelve to
eighteen months doing a series on theDark Night Returns, right, and the
impact of that on comics, theimpact of that on Batman, the impact
of that on films, you know, all of that very similar kind of

(17:26):
concepts, so that we're going totalk about in this series. But but
Wade and Ross actually wrote this inresponse to stories like the Dark Night Returns
and the Dark Grittiness because they didn'tlike the direction that those comics were going.
They didn't like the Punisher and Loboand the way Wolverine had become so

(17:49):
really really violent, and the DarkKnight Returns and things like that. They
were again they wanted to see,your superheroes need to be good guys.
And that's what this whole story isreally centered around. As you've got this
retired set of classic superheroes from theJustice League that we all think about with
with Superman and Wonder Woman and Batmanof course, but the Flash and Green

(18:15):
Lantern and these classic you know,characters that have to come back and try
to restore order and honor to theidea of being a superhero while there's this
new breed of metahumans that are thatdon't care about the consequences of their actions
at all, which was a mirrorof what's going on um with this um

(18:38):
you know, talk a little bitabout the some of the other stories maybe
that have influenced UM Wade and Miller. Excuse me, Wade Miller, I
thought, I thought about Frank Millerfor a second. Wade and Ross as
they as they crafted this story,and kind of um uh, we're going
down the path of planning this out. Well, I mean, um,

(19:00):
Mark Wade had already written quite abit for DC, as we had mentioned,
you know, especially he cut histeeth on The Flash, you know,
and and he through working on thatseries, he gained a kind of
a reputation for very deep character work. You know. They didn't just have
you know, the kind of Saturdaymorning cartoon, just flashy characters that were

(19:22):
always on you'd find in a gasstation. They were more important. They
had They really looked at a character'sum, personality and morals, which set
him apart um so using that hewas able to create a nuanced and kind
of character driven level to Kingdom Come. It's not about having. While it

(19:44):
does have just about every DC superheroand ones that you don't even have to
get mentioned, right, it's nota cameo fest. No, It's very
focused on the characters and their motivesand their thoughts behind everything. So you
know, he really set himself upfor success through his previous works on that
definitely, and with Alex Ross.He worked on with Marvel a lot,

(20:10):
and he still works with Marvel alot more than DC, i'd say at
this point. But he worked onMarvels, which was kind of a ground
bake breaking a series for its photorealistic, hyperrealistic artwork that was that is Alex
Ross's signature at this point. Yousee a picture of Alex Ross art,
you immediately know it's Alex Ross.And every panel he does in a comic

(20:33):
could be hung up in a museum. It's amazing artwork. And so we
did that with Marvels, and itwas super groundbreaking. And so he was
brought onto this project and with MarkWade and was writing this with him and
wanted to have this artwork, thisphotorealistic, hyperrealistic, emotional artwork. As
I was reading it again today,I noticed that you really do get to

(20:57):
see the full emotions on each ofthe chacters, because there's more depth to
them than just you can connect theartwork. Yes, Like like at the
end of the story when the pastoris kind of pleading to Superman to stop,
I mean there's just a couple panelsof just focusing on Superman and you
see a tears start to well up. That's something you can't really like show

(21:19):
as well without this hyper realistic footeartwork that we have, and it was
amazing. And I think another thingabout his style that lends to the story
so well is he does a fantasticjob of taking classic, what some people
would consider cheesy looks of characters,Yeah, making the classic Golden Age versions

(21:40):
of the King them feel timeless,like they're icons from you know, years
ago, like any Greek god ina way, you know. And something
about his style always kind of remindsme of kind of like depictions of like
the forties and fifties, you know, that kind that kind of art style
that was prevalent, I don't rememberwhat you would call it, but just

(22:02):
kind of that almost like grainy lookto it kind of also helps set this
story in a way that's almost liketimeless like you could like, I didn't
realize that this was written in thenineties when I was reading it. You
could have told me this came outtwo years ago and I would have believed,
right, you know, it reallyhelps lend to that. Yeah,
you know, we were talking aboutit a little bit as far as Wade

(22:23):
and Ross's inspiration for what this was. It was really Ross that came up
with the idea while he was workingin the Marvels series and how he wanted
to do something like that in DC. And again, it was in response
to sort of this darker trend withincomics and these anti hero approach towards some

(22:45):
of these characters, and he wantedto come back, so he went with
Wade, and Wade was really reallypassionate about let's get back to true heroes
in comics style of heroes, andso, yeah, they worked together on
this really well. But there's alsothe uh, you know, the biblical
concept. Sam. You brought thatup a little bit earlier when we were

(23:06):
we were starting on that talk alittle bit about kind of some of the
ideas in the narrative and how theyweave the biblical narrative in the story into
that. Right, I mean,well, even just the name UM of
the comic is a biblical reference UMfrom straight from the Lord's prayer, right
from the Lord's you know that willbe done, your kingdom will be done?
Ye yeah, sorry, UM,you know it's it's a reference.

(23:29):
And throughout the story, Revelations isthe book that's referenced. But it's not
like the story UM itself Mirrors ofRevelation one for one, it's told from
the minister's UM mindset, I forgethis name or his viewpoint, and he's
having these prophetic visions of the futureand he's processing these visions through his his

(23:57):
you know, his worldview, whathe knows, and that's the Bible and
specifically Revelation because it's it's an apocalypticliterature, and what he's seeing are apocalyptic
UM images. And so you'll seejust certain scenes in the comic that line
up with something from Revelation. Notthe whole story, but like when UM,

(24:18):
I can't remember a specific reference ofone, but I know there's one
we're referring to, like Superman risingout of the the you know, the
ashes and things like that. Likethere there are parts where you're reading it
and it kind of feels like everythingcomes to a head and you're like,
oh my gosh, the this revelation, this prophecy has come true. So
it's more of a I'm trying tothink of a word, a literary tool

(24:42):
than anything. Because biblical, youknow, the Bible has been referenced in
all sorts of things. It addsan almost weighty, epic mythological feel to
a lot of things when when theBible's reference, and it works perfectly with
this story following the and Gods ofum DC. Yeah, Nate, earlier,

(25:03):
you and I were talking a littlebit as you were kind of rereading
this today about some of that Biblicalimagery and some of the connections and ties
are What were some of the thingsthat you noticed when you were reading it
today, Like um talking about Shazamand the seven Thunders and all that stuff.
At that voice, that lion's roar, that's that's Shazam, that's the
seven you know, gods is sevenpowers coming into that lightning strike. And

(25:29):
the Emerald City, which is talkingabout Green Lantern in the city that he
created up above, and the sevenAngels, which is the Justice the Justice
League rises back right exactly, andall of these things. Each issue starts
with a reference back to Revelation tokind of as a starting point, and
each issue almost except for the lastone, ends with reference back to revelation.

(25:52):
It's a big part of this story. And it starts with the pastor
talking about to his friend that hadthese prophetic visions on his deathbed, him
talking about revelation to him, andyeah, and in preaching delivering opening about
revelation, and then he starts havingthese visions and then Specter comes to him
to help him and and kind ofbring him through as a as the witness

(26:15):
of these events, and which issuch an interesting concept of so cool.
It feels like a Christmas Carol,but at bit a lot. But it
was such an interesting way to showthis pastor and his hope and how it
never wavered throughout any of this,and that showed his faith more than anything.
It was so awesome, even theway that it ends with with Shazam

(26:40):
and how the solution for the unwinnablescenario in the story is not having the
God's win or humanity win. It'shaving the one person that bridges that,
the one that's both the god manand with Billy Bats and Shazam, the

(27:02):
one that is all God and allman having to sacrifice himself in order might
that might just be the Dad momentbe coming in the middle here. But
um but sacrificing himself in order tosave all of the earth, UM with
that is a really really powerful metaphor. And you know Superman has very messianicum.
He definitely christological ideas within this.But I think that was a really

(27:26):
interestingless Yeah that's a word. Huhinteresting. Yeah, yeah, there we
go. So let's talk a littlebit about these, uh, the way
that they envisioned some of these theseclassic DC characters. UM with it.
You know, you've got your yourmain characters that you think about. We've
we've you know, a Superman,Batman and all of those. Talk a
little bit about some of the differentcharacters. Talk about one, yeah,
go for it, Flash was supercool, and talk a little bit about

(27:49):
well, in a way, theykind of took each of these classic characters
and brought them to their greatest potentialin a way, Um, Superman was
at his strongest, wonder Woman,while I mean, okay, physically they're
all out there at their strongest.Obviously morally they were a little and you
know they were a little messed upat this point because they were jaded,
but physically as superheroes, they wereat their their greatest. You know,

(28:14):
Flash, Well, he's he's constantlyum patrolling Keystone City at all times,
right, and he was like everydepiction of him, he was like phasing
in and out of different realities andstuff. At one point he's able to
see um the Specter and the pastor. Yeah, I mean I just thought
that was such a cool depiction ofthe Flash. They took that kind of

(28:37):
kind of can't be looked with thehubcap and then made him like just an
ethereal entity that you can't even liketo like notice. I thought that was
cool. Yeah. Talking a littleabout some of the other characters, I
mean, go with Batman because agood character in this he Batman is the
one character that really feels like hehasn't changed morally. He is still Batman.

(29:00):
He still believes in what he's doingand we'll still be the cunning detective
that he always is and will doublecross Lex Luthor at a drop of a
hat because that's what he wanted todo and that's what he found to be
the best. And he does patrolGotham in a different way. But people
might be like, it's a policestate. He's consistently, but he does

(29:21):
it in such a way where heonly acts if there is a crime and
then acts on that, but stilldoesn't compromise his morals. And Gotham is
an insanely safe city now because ofwhat Batman has done, even though he's
not out there himself. But itreally shows that Batman hasn't compromised his morals

(29:41):
even with these new group of superheroescoming up and with Superman. Just before
you move on, I have onequestion about Batman. It's not a serious
question, it's just it always buggedme when I was reading it. When
he's not in the full batsuit,where the x Exo suit thing, the
bottom half of his neck guard lookslike Vader's helmet, like when he takes
off the helmet at the end ofepisode six, it looks just like that.

(30:04):
I'm not crazy, right, No, No, you're not okay.
I just wanted to clear that up. You good, No, But Superman.
It was super interesting to reread thisbecause I've read the Injustice comics and
played the Injustice game and everything,and this follows a very similar story,
but Superman took a different direction,and Injustice, Joker kills Lois Lane,

(30:25):
right, and in this Joker killsLois Lane. But in this Joker is
killed not by Superman. But andjust so you know, if you haven't
read this comic, that's like theopening. It's not like that big of
a spoiler. That's what's killed withThat's that's what starts the story, explaining
like a backstory, right right,it's like Magog kills Joker. That's another

(30:45):
biblical reference. Yeah, it isliterally in the name from Revelation, which
I loved. I watched a videokind of talking about how Alex Ross came
up with the character design for that, and he's like, yeah, I
just took all the parts about RobLeefield's characters signs so that I didn't like
and combine it, which if youknow Rob Leefield, he's definitely done some
influential work, but he's also veryinfamous as to some of his depictures,

(31:08):
so I thought that was pretty funny. So what I really loved about this
story was showing how the boy scoutof Superman doesn't really change, and that's
something that people were a little bitconfused about and frustrated about, and it
is something that frustrated me, andInjustice how much Superman lost it when Lois
Lane died, And in this one, Superman still keeps level head and retires

(31:33):
after this because he doesn't want tobe a part of the human world anymore.
He wants to go to a digitalfarm and live life the way he
wants to live life and just forgetabout everything that happens in the real world
and go into some solitude. Andin Injustice he goes a complete opposite direction.

(31:53):
He becomes one of these young heroesthat decides to enact vengeance Injustice that
he sees fit on the general public, which was super interesting, and I
do wonder how Mark Wade and AlexRoss felt about that take on basically the
Injustice version the Injustice Superman way after. But I really loved how Superman was

(32:15):
shown in this story as still beingthis incorruptible boy scout, because that's who
Superman is. And that is alsosomething that people haven't liked about Man of
Steel and Zack Snyder's version of Supermanbecause he killed Zod and that's not what's
supposed to Superman is supposed to dothat he did it to save humanity.
He did it to save humanity,and that's when he became a human again.

(32:37):
And that's that's when Superman became theMan of Steel, not Kalel.
And that was a really great moment. And it happened in Superman Chris the
Reeve's version, too. Zod diedin that one, but nobody seems to
care about when you see the otherversion. There's an alternate version where he
doesn't where they show survived exactly.So it depends on which version you think

(32:59):
of. But still it happened backthen. Well, I think it's interesting,
you know, when I think aboutthis version of Superman. This is
the first chance, first time wesee the grizzled, jaded, cynical,
retired, removed from the story oldHero. This is the Logan story.

(33:22):
This is the Indiana Jones in Baladestinywho's moved. This is Luke Skywalker in
the Last Jedi. He acts verymuch like Luke in the Last Jedi.
In this. Yeah, he goesoff to seclude himself after things don't quite
go how he expects. I mean, which I loved that, because you

(33:42):
know how much I loved that.I think it isn't this the first time
we see wonder Woman really brought intothe storyline as like the Trinity in this?
I mean, was she was sheelevated to that level popular in the
nineties, but I don't know ifshe was elevated to this much of an
influential character in Yes, she waspretty story, but she was also kind
of the most morally ambiguous in thisstory. Yeah, she was pretty brutal

(34:07):
and kind of lost it at somepoints, and she kind of she kind
of transitions through the story from onKalile's side opening to kind of shifting over
to the other the other side ofthe vision kind of stuff. Yeah,
like just get rid of these heroeskind of ideology, which is not what

(34:30):
Superman wanted. It's not what Batmanwanted, and that's why Superman and Batman
eventually worked together at the end.But wonder Woman kind of lost her way
after this, and not the firsttime we've seen it. She's basically the
same character and injustice as she isin this basically shot for shot, wonder
Woman starts to lose faith in humanityand tries to signs Clark to join her

(34:50):
and kind of rise up against thesepeople. So that's very similar who she
is in this story. But inthis story, she still has a compass
of morality and still wants to reallydo right by the world, but she's
not sure how to anymore because she'slost so much in the ten years that
between you know, where Joker killsLois Lane and Kalile goes to exile and

(35:13):
lost so much. So it's interestingto see how that's factory into her character.
It's not a little bit about likethe environment, this is something you
guys obviously weren't a part of,but the world and the setting of this.
You know, when I think ofof the origin of Star Wars,
for example, Star Wars is theproduct of a series of movies in the

(35:39):
seventies that were dark, they weregritty, they were angry, they were
violent, and an environment a worldculture that was jaded and cynical and needed
some type of hope. And that'svery similar to the setting that births this
Kingdom Come graphic novel, both inthe way comics are being told being dark

(36:01):
and gritty, but also the cultureand the world at that time. I
mean, you guys, aren't youknow, obviously unaware of that. But
if if it's dads and moms andold people like me, um on here
listening to this. You know,the the nineties, we are just coming
out of the Cold War. We'rejust kind of um getting into this new

(36:22):
world with lots of globalization, lotsof uh, you know, the Internet
is starting to be born, umand take place, and it's it's this,
you know, we've got We've gotthis. The racial tensions are are
are coming back to the surface withpolice brutality, um, you know,
coming from with like the Rodney Kingsituation in south central LA and the riots

(36:45):
that took place based on that,um and just a lot of disillusionment um
with with the public, with thepublic space, the politics, and and
fears in the future on that,and that bleeds into what wade In and
Ross are telling in this story.Because there's this, there is this,

(37:08):
you know, is there is somethingto be hopeful for? Is there is
can good? Actually? When isthere any hope for humanity and for the
future on that? What are yourthoughts on some of that kind of stuff?
Yeah, And comics usually try toreflect the world that we're in today,
and then sometimes they are a wayto escape from the cruelty of the

(37:30):
world. But this. It wasdone in telling a way of hope and
not really bringing bleeding in the realworld into this. It was just there
to show hope and kind of givepeople this outlet of escapism while still giving
them a reason to kind of workon this. Yeah, I think it.

(37:51):
It captured the feeling the general publichad very well without straight up,
you know, bringing up real worldtopics. You know, it had that
sense of unease and uncertainty, um, but a possible hope for the future,
without actually you know, quoting theCold War or like that. Right,

(38:12):
it wasn't Dark Knight Returns. TheGolden Child explained was that it was
the most recent sequel to Dark KnightReturns, which any sequel to Dark Knight
Returns has been mediocre at best,which is sad, but this one was
especially bad. It was genuinely bringingin real world events with Trump in the

(38:34):
twenty sixteen and having that being thebasis of the villain throughout the entire city.
The issue and I was like,this is just you're bringing in too
much of the real world for thisto be escape, for this to be
it's too heavy handed trying to geta message across and you can do it
in a different way without it beingso heavy. And see when that happens,

(38:58):
it just takes me out of thestore exactly. It took me out
of the story. And it's oneof my least favorite colts, you know.
It kind of reminds me of whenwe dealt when we talked about the
Falcon and the Winter Soldier, andwhen they were dealing with some real world
issues, right the experimentation on AfricanAmerican soldiers during World War two and post
World War two, and racism andglobalization and immigrant issues and refugee issues and

(39:22):
all of these different types of things. But they did it in a way
that it allowed us to experience thatworld and those issues without having to hear
it being preached, which opens upan opportunity to have a conversation about it,
which is, I think, whatyou say you like about this story,
I love about the story. It'swhat I love about most stories I

(39:43):
tell, these kind of versions ofreal world events. It really should be
done. It allows you to thinkmore about it after the fact, not
to have it kind of thrown upon you while you're reading it. And
it's more important to kind of havethat set with you rather than you just
being like, Okay, well,this is just I feel like I'm reading
a newspaper with illustrations rather than acomic book that is supposed to have superheroes

(40:08):
and really big moments to it.It didn't feel like that. And this
is what this did. This hadthe big moments, This had the ability
for you to think on it afterwards, as we're doing now. We're taking
eight episodes of a podcast to talkabout everything that this series did. A
comic book series that came out almostthirty years ago, exactly crazy. You

(40:29):
couldn't do that with some of thestuff that, like, you couldn't do
that with The Dark Knight Returns,Golden Tale. There's no feasible way you
could have eight episodes talking about that. And while it is shorter, there's
just nothing you could pull out ofthat that you couldn't fit into one episode.
But there's so much hidden in thisseries that's important. Yeah, I
think one thing that is not reallyit's not hidden at all. It's sort

(40:49):
of front and center. It's aprimary element of this is this divide between
the classic generation of superheroes and thisnew generation follows today pretty well, well,
it follows every generation, right,I mean that's that's like the issue,
and I think it's important for us. And we'll look at this in
an episode later. Um, we'regoing to go into detail on it,
but it's going to take up awhole an entire episode. I mean,

(41:13):
but it's this is a multigenerational podcast, so it should do that. But
talk a little bit about maybe thenew heroes and that generational conflict in this
Yeah, there was a lot toit, and it was really interesting to
see because the new heroes which wesee today even in comics, new heroes
are more violent, less reserved,less um morally right, and a lot

(41:37):
of things. I mean, youcan you look at one character for that
as reference. You look at DamianWayne and his ideology against of what should
be done against these supervillains, andhe started to become more like Batman.
But he's young now. He saidthat those more of the result of his
training. It is upbeating and everything. But still he has his ideology that
heroes need to be different, anda lot of that happens in this story.

(42:00):
Heroes believe that they need to bedifferent, they need to enact an
instant judgment on these villains. Seeone thing, now, I don't have
as much exposure or experience with thischaracter as you might Nate. But one
thing, at least in the GothamKnight's Game that I like about red Hood
is he kind of comes from thatmindset of Damien Wayne where judgment needs you

(42:23):
know, he was totally fine withkilling, like judgment need to be enacted
to begin with, and then whenhe was readopted into the bat family,
he struggled with adopting Bruce Wayne's mentalityto justice and it took him a while
to adjust that, but eventually helearned why that was the way things needed

(42:45):
to happen, and he kind ofhe went backwards. He learned the true
form of justice that these old heroesin like in Kingdom come or trying to
enact that the new generation can quietunderstand. He kind of bridges that gap
in a way, which is somethingI find really interesting about that character.
Am I kind of on the rightChocha. I think Another thing that's really

(43:07):
fascinating to me is the positive portrayalof Norman McKay as a religious leader,
as a pastor, not a religiousdenominational leader, not like he's not a
pope, He's not just a televangelist. He's not Yeah, he's not a

(43:28):
famous pastor or anything like that.He's a small town, little church like
the like in the first panel we'veseen preaching, and there's maybe thirty people
in this congregation, but he's andhe talks to specter, He's like,
I can't go, my congregation stillneeds me. That's thirty people. I
loved how they portrayed He's not azealot, he's not an He is a

(43:52):
priest. He's in the pastors,a pastor, and that's all he wants
to do is just be there forthe congregation, no matter mentor them,
minister to them. That's it.But he's the one that truly saved the
world, saved the day. Isthis religious, small church, everyday pastor
that's just trying to care for hisown flock, his own people, trying

(44:15):
to maintain hope in a world thathas become more and more hopeless, trying
to pass on hope to people whodesperately need it. He's the one that
ends up at the end of thispersuading superman at the very end, to
be human again. And I thinkyou can respect that character and that regardless

(44:35):
of your religious stance or affiliation.He's He's just such a down to earth,
everyday person and it makes for areally interesting story that way. Yeah,
let's talk kind of as we beginto wrap up here in this episode,
what what was the initial based onwhat you guys understand, what was
the initial reaction, both critically andby fans to the release of Kingdom Come.

(45:05):
It was positive, immensely positive,because it was something it was something
new, and while it doesn't seemlike it would be something new, we're
taking characters that are old, We'retaking characters that at that point we're campy,
and just giving the hopeful superhero story. Again. People understood that when
it comes to comic books, wetruly need that, and this was the

(45:28):
first time in a while we hadthat hopeful story told in such a beautiful
and amazing way that people you couldn'tmiss it. If you were alive in
nineteen ninety six and you followed comics, you could not miss the king Come
mini series. It wasn't something youcould do. And so it was shown
by critics and by fans and mycomics stores running out of these issues and

(45:52):
having to have multiple printings of theseissues that this series was important and everyone
just thought it amazing. I havenot met someone that has read this series
that says that it's okay, everyone'slike, this is an amazing series and
absolutely was influential in the comics wehave today. Yeah, I mean it's

(46:12):
not the serialized comics that are prevalent. While there's nothing wrong with those in
any way. In fact, I'vestarted kind of getting into them a little
bit. They're great fun and theycan have interesting stories. Something about a
story where they give a small teamof creators complete liberty to tell the story

(46:32):
that they feel needs to be told. Not that they would necessarily want to
tell. I mean they did wantto tell it, but something that they
felt was important to tell. Withtheir own freedom to tell allows them the
room to tell an influential story.You're not bogged down with ties to the
cannon or having to fit into shortyou know, thirty page issues or anything.

(46:59):
Yeah, and allowed them to tellthe story that resonated with fans at
the time because it was also sucha standout story amongst all of the Grim
Dark stories that were prevalent. Andit really shows against the people, you
know that other people are like,oh, I hate the multiverse it's ruined
comics. If we didn't have themultiverse, we wouldn't have had this story.
We wouldn't have Else Worlds, wewould not have Kingdom Come, we

(47:21):
wouldn't have Watchmen. These things wouldnot exist without the creation of the multiverse.
Sole introduction into comics with the Flash, with the Flash of Two Worlds,
that insanely classic comic cover, thatwas the beginning of these stories,
the ability to tell these stories.Crisis on Infinite Earths was told from a

(47:43):
multiverse perspective. The multiverse isn't badif it's used correctly and not Indoctritia and
the multiverse. You're going to throwthat dignity every time every time, you
know, you talk about the impactof that too, that the Flash what
was the name that one you mentionthe Flash of Two Worlds had on creating
the multiverse and how it changed everythingwith that which then allows for Kingdom Come

(48:08):
and stories like it to take place. But what are some of the things
that Kingdom Con brought to the tablethat have had a lasting impact on the
DC universe. And we kind oftalked about this at the beginning, but
specifically, what are some of thosethings? Yeah, it really helped show
that there can be deep stories ofthese superheroes that we love, and that
these superheroes that we love, wecan connect with them more if we show

(48:30):
that they have human emotion. Youcan connect with these characters more. If
we see them beaten, if wesee them have a fit of rage,
if we see them morally broken.At these points, we can connect with
them more. And that's allowed usto have these amazing storylines that we've had
today with a lot of comics now, with Chipsadarwski's Daredevil run, and with

(48:54):
Chipsodarwski's Batman run, and with somany comics like even the I Am Ironman
series that you've been reading sam Eachissue itself tells a story of how iron
Man can be broken and how hecomes back from that, at least from
what I've read of it, Andso every comic now shows that these characters
are are pretty much us and that'swhat makes them heroes instead of them being

(49:15):
these insane superheroes that we can nevergot. These these people we could never
relate to, we now can relateto. And this series really helped say
that. Also helped with making surethat comics don't need to have so so
art. They really can have beautifulart to it and still be on time.

(49:42):
Yeah. Absolutely, Yeah, I'mnot sure there's really much I can
add to that. Nathan really summedup everything I would I would think about
that series. So, you know, as we get ready to move forward
into other episodes regarding this, andwe start talking about characters, and we
talk about the artists, and wetalk about the impact act and we talk
about those types of things. Ithink that one of the things that I'm
walking away from this initial conversation withis that in the midst of a crazy,

(50:13):
challenging world environment that's being illustrated throughbecause you know, art illustrates life
right with that imitates art imitates life, right. So these comics, these
comics, these comics that were comingout in the nineties were dark, cynical,
gritty, anti hero stories that we'relooking for justice and regardless of how

(50:38):
you got it, which was reflectingwhat so many people were feeling at that
time. We're in that same timeright now. Yeah, we feel so
many people feel that way in ourworld today, and you know, I
think it kind of connects to somethingI want to share as a dad moment,
a little father Hope isn't found invengeance. And I think that that's

(51:00):
what you see the battle of thisstory taking place the plot of the Batman
movie, right. That movie isgood, but that's that's the idea.
Right. So, so you've gotyou've got this world that's looking for justice,
and they see that mistaken or mistakenlysee this as being vengeance and destruction.

(51:22):
And I mean, we're locking upsuperheroes in Omega prison in this because
we can't control them, but thatat the same time, they're battling it
out and collateral damage is happening everywhere, and these heroes don't care, and
there is no hope. And soSuperman comes in and tries to impose,
you know, order on the situationwith the Justice League all over again,

(51:44):
and that doesn't work. And theanswer isn't any of those things. The
answer in this is a simple man, a human, a pastor who brings
hope and brings a message of hopeeven to somebody that should probably not listen
to him. And I think thatthat's how we move forward in our lives

(52:06):
and in our world. Right,If you can bring hope to the people
in your circle of influence, whetheror not that's a superman in this comic
book where finally he gets a chanceto speak to him and he brings a
message of hope to him, orand humanity right to him, or if
it's a pastor and his little congregationof thirty people and he's sharing that message

(52:28):
of hope. Whatever your world andyour circle is, just be the type
of person when someone spends ten minutesor two hours with or is it around
all the time, they walk awayand they feel hopeful because they've been around
you. I think that's probably themessage that Wade and Ross we're trying to

(52:50):
get back get past with this,was that we need to be people of
hope. And I think that that'swhat we're going to see throughout the rest
of this. So I'm very excitedto see where this goes. Yeah with
this, what are some of thetakeaways that you guys had from our conversation
the exploration of the origins of this. Oh, I mean, it feels

(53:12):
like I want something like this tocome out nowadays, But in other ways,
we don't need something to come outnowadays, because this story can still
apply even now in this crazy world, like you were mentioning. So I'm
excited to take a deeper dive intothat. It just reminds me that comics
are really good. We can havereally great comics that really speak to people

(53:35):
if they're done right, and yeah, this one really did a great job
with that. I do think it'sinteresting though, that when you talk about
how we don't need these stories toldagain, well, I'm saying like,
we don't need because this one exists, right. I think it's interesting that
Wade and Ross say that you couldn'twrite this story today, They've said recently
in interviews. Yeah, they're like, no, we couldn't know, not

(53:58):
from me, it would no onewould allow it to be but like,
no, that it would have tobe a different story with different characters and
different concepts because they don't think thatit translates into today. But from a
next generation perspective, you guys bothfeel like it translates perfectly into exactly it's
a timeless comic. It really is. In my opinion, I think that's
pretty amazing. What are we goingto talk about the next time, Well,
I think we're we're going to talkabout the narrative. You know,

(54:21):
we're gonna dive deep into the plotof the story. You know, we're
kind of taking a surface level,thirty thousand foot view here. We're going
to talk about its complexities and it'skind of its progression and the way it
navigates through the various DC characters arcs. There's a lot of characters that's got
to weave through the biggest amount ofcharacters in a DC comic i've seen,
um, and it will. It'llalso be a bit of an analysis on

(54:44):
like the storytelling methods that they utilizeand with revelation planning Crypton, we can't
forget, we cannot skip. Ireally want a planet Crypton, Gray Narrow,
Green Lantern. Who am I?I really want a planet crypt in
the real world. I would goto that in a heartbeat. That's awesome.
Well that's it. That's going todo it for an Episode's a longer

(55:06):
episode, but you know, itwas fun conversatingdom Come deserves a lot of
conversation, and we're gonna spend anotherseven episodes doing this. Thirty years has
been talked about. Yeah, absolutely, almost thirty years. Yeah absolutely.
Um. How can listeners share theirthoughts and feedback on this episode? Where
are some ways they can get intouch with us? You can you can
leave us reviews for one on Googleand Spotify or Apple podcasts, all those

(55:30):
little things. But you can alsoum, you know, message us or
whatever on our social media is likethey can access on x like that Twitter,
Twitter, you could fall free toexpress yourself. Okay, that was
pretty good. Yeah you need toyou need to hit up. You didn't

(55:51):
listen. So, um, we'reon Facebook as well. That's still Facebook.
It's always been Facebook, believe itor not. No, No,
it's it's meta now. It's theapp is still Facebook until they do the
weird loop and you can you canfind us on threads. I'll see the
notification to respond. I'm saying thatit's always at tattooing suns yeah and definite
and sons um with that, andI think that's gonna make sure you check

(56:14):
out the CNHQ, the Christian humwith all the different shows on that.
Mondays is uh Christian rs Unite.We're Tuesdays, Um, Wednesdays are fan
Growling over Jesus, Thursdays or theReverend of the Reprobate, and Fridays are
speaking Brdie. Check out all theshows. The links are in the in
the notes below. I'd love foryou to check those out and share this

(56:36):
with people. Make sure if you'vegot DC fans or comic book fans in
your life, that they get this, they get in on this series.
We'd love to allow them to hearthis show and engage with us over the
long haul. Kingdom Come and ifyou haven't read Kingdom, go go buy
it, please please do buy itdown it. It's everywhere you can find
it, basically anywhere. You probablyfind it at Barnes and you definitely could

(56:58):
find it Books a Millionaire yep,for sure. Amazon, anywhere you want
to read it, it's there.Absolutely. I think that's gonna do it
for this week. Anythink else youguys want to say? May the Forest
to be with you, May theforest to be with you, The foes
be with you all the way.This party's over. I like that movie
Don't Get Taken Go with me toplease. Yeah,