Tatooine Sons Reacts: Andor's Legacy of Courage, Sacrifice, and Star Wars for the Next Generation

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to Tatooine Sons, a Star Wars podcast, the only
fan podcast to name a Cannon Star Wars creature and
to be endorsed by the writer and director of The
Last Jedi, Ryan Johnson. Get ready to explore a galaxy
far far away across the generations. Here is your host,
David the bow Tie Jedi Guy, with a special presentation

(00:26):
of his appearance on the streaming Star Wars Network.

Speaker 2 (00:29):
But I was going in a Tashi station to pick
up some power converters.

Speaker 3 (00:32):
All right, If you thought that Star Wars was just
for kids, it's time to think again, because and Or
has proven that the galaxy Far far Away has stories
that resonate very deeply with a more mature audience. And
this episode of Tattooine Sons is actually a reshare from

(00:56):
when I had the honor to join Peer Fletzer and
Nick Milky on the Streaming Star Wars Network's Road to
Rebellion the and Or After Show, and we were joined
by Colton Augburn from Screen Crush and Becca Benjamin from
Tarkin's Top Shelf to really dissect every thrilling moment of

(01:21):
and Or season two. This episode, you're about to hear
It really isn't a recap of the season.

Speaker 2 (01:30):
It's much more than that.

Speaker 3 (01:31):
It's a very thoughtful exploration into what makes this series
so special. It's going to look at all of those
gut wrenching moments like Marvus speech and everything that happened
with Bicks and Claya, all of that. It's going to

(01:55):
look at the unsung heroes of the rebellion. We leave
no stone unturned, so get ready to relive the excitement.
We're going to debate character arcs, We're going to ponder
the future of Star Wars storytelling.

Speaker 2 (02:10):
This episode really isn't one for young wings.

Speaker 3 (02:14):
Instead, it's reminding us that the force is strong with
adults too. So stay tuned because this adventure is just beginning.
This is tattooing sons.

Speaker 4 (02:27):
Oh please, Well, now that the season has ended and
we've seen all twelve episodes of season two, evan Or,
we're gonna be taking a look back at the series
and ahead to some of the impact of the Star
Wars franchise.

Speaker 5 (02:41):
We are going to do that, and it's very important
that you hear me say this part right here before
we dive in. We do want to give you a
full spoiler warning, and I mean season one, I mean
season two, I mean Rogue one. I mean if you're here,
if you're watching this and you haven't seen Rogue one
or any of the other things, hit pause, check it
all out, get completely they caught up, and come back.

Speaker 2 (03:01):
We will be here.

Speaker 5 (03:01):
We will wait for you, but we don't want to
spoil it for you, because we're going to talk about
all of it.

Speaker 2 (03:06):
That's right.

Speaker 4 (03:07):
And each week on Roach to Rebellion, Nick and I
have unpacked the story, the characters, the big moments, little details,
and everything in between. But this week, Nick, we are
joined by our own band of rebels, friends of the show,
who will be here to help build out our panel.

Speaker 5 (03:23):
That is correct, and I'm very excited about this. The
first person we're going to introduce is no stranger to
our network and the shows we do.

Speaker 2 (03:29):
She is an.

Speaker 5 (03:30):
Expert on all things Star Wars literature, one of the
hosts of Tarkin's Top Shelf, which is the best Star
Wars book podcast out there. I'm excited to welcome back
our friend, Becca Benjamin.

Speaker 2 (03:39):
Becca, what's up?

Speaker 6 (03:40):
Hey, Beca, Hey guys, how are you? Thanks for having me.

Speaker 4 (03:44):
Good to see you, and of course you have seen
our next guest, breaking down your favorite shows as part
of the screen Crush YouTube channel. We've mentioned screen Crush
on our show to go find them for the Easter eggs.
My Any has had the great honor of working with
him on the screen Coached Severed Floor. Please welcome Colton,
Ugbur and Colton. How are you hey?

Speaker 7 (04:05):
My Any tells me great things about your Any, Keith,
so I'm glad to meet up on the outside here.

Speaker 2 (04:13):
You're how he likes to watch Star Wars.

Speaker 5 (04:18):
And last but certainly not least as a podcasting and
Star Wars veteran, he and his sons have created the
ultimate family pop culture podcast and they even have a
porg but is named in Star Wars canon. I'm excited
to welcome back our friend, mister David Jesse. David, what's up.

Speaker 3 (04:34):
Man, I'm so excited to be here talking about this
crazy series.

Speaker 8 (04:37):
What an ending last night or a couple of nights ago. Yeah,
oh my gosh, it was. It was. It was a
heck of a show. And that's actually a great way
to start. So each week Nick and I would start
by sharing our first impressions of the arc of the week.

Speaker 4 (04:53):
But now that we've seen the entire series. I want
to ask what your impressions were of season two and Beca.
I want to start with you, what are your overall
impressions of and Or Season two?

Speaker 6 (05:06):
Well, it all goes back to twenty sixteen for me,
and I'm just going to say, just like I did
after walking out of the theater of seeing Rogue one,
because I always said Rogue one was the one Star
Wars story I never knew I needed, and watching both
seasons of and Or just solidifize that for me. So

(05:28):
that's where I'm at with this.

Speaker 4 (05:30):
Yeah, it's true, and Nick and I say it all
the time. We're like, Kenobe, we don't need that show.
Oh my gosh, I'm glad we got it wrote but
Rogue one, your one hundred percent right was one of
those that I was like, we got it in the
opening crawl, we know what happens.

Speaker 2 (05:42):
That's fine.

Speaker 4 (05:42):
And it has turned into really I think, what twenty
four hours plus two like a full day worth of
story at this point that we didn't know we needed
and has flushed out the galaxy is such an amazing way. Calton,
what are your thoughts on in your response to and
Or Season two?

Speaker 2 (06:03):
Oh? Well, like season one.

Speaker 7 (06:05):
It's definitely i'd say the best Star Wars we've gotten
since Revenge of the Sith, probably since Return the Jedi.

Speaker 2 (06:13):
I mean, it is top tier storytelling.

Speaker 7 (06:16):
It It's a sector of the Star Wars universe that
I always wanted them to explore, Like I want to
see them in the literal trenches of the Rebellion.

Speaker 2 (06:28):
And that's what Andor has given us.

Speaker 7 (06:30):
And you know, I'm sure we'll talk about this as
we go, but it's a big galaxy there. There's room
to tell all different kinds of stories in this universe,
and I'm just I'm hopeful, and I don't want them
to like beat a dead horse or overdo it, but
I'm hopeful that Gilroy will maybe do something else, like
maybe something in the first Order realm or you know,

(06:52):
tell a story like that.

Speaker 4 (06:53):
Yeah, I had I had this concept on my way
home today on the train, that was thinking maybe he
could do like the mini Boton'stide stories so that way
we keep mon Monthly's so great. I love to see
more of that. But that would be beating the dead Corse.
I think you could easily make a case that that
would be just doing the same thing again, but so no,
but I.

Speaker 2 (07:14):
Won't right back. George.

Speaker 4 (07:15):
Yeah, and David, what, what's what's your takeaway after the
first or after the scene?

Speaker 2 (07:23):
Season two?

Speaker 6 (07:24):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (07:25):
You know when we when we finished watching season one
and we were recording our podcast and talking about it,
I U I said that it's It's one of the
most amazing television shows that I've ever seen. And I
feel the same way about season two and the entire
series as a whole. The challenge that I've always had
with it is what Star Wars is for me right

(07:46):
and Star Wars for me has always been about things
like the mythology and the Force and and the Jedi
and the Sith and those types of things. And so
I've struggled a little bit with this series, absolutely loving it,
but wondering if it feels as much as stars like
Star Wars as I wanted. I've had to let this series,

(08:07):
every time we watch an episode in season one or
an arc and season two, just sit for a little
bit longer and think about it and process it. And
that's the kind of whether or not in Star Wars
or anything else in entertainment media, anything that makes me
stop and process and think about what I'm watching a
little bit more deeply.

Speaker 2 (08:26):
Is amazing.

Speaker 4 (08:28):
Yeah, I think that's one of the things that you
were saying that it struck me that it's rare for
a season two to be as good as season one.
I mean, maybe not rare, but it's hard to keep
that streak going, right, and so not only I think
they actually I think season two is better for me.

(08:48):
I think just maybe it was because of the way
it was delivered, or or maybe it was because there
was a little more action, or I don't know. For
whatever reason, it was better for me. And I loved
season one as well, So it was kind of interesting that,
I mean, the fact that it can be so continuous,
and I think just that all of us have probably
at least watched a scene or two from Rogue one

(09:10):
since it ended, and you're just I can't believe it
makes the connection so very well so, which again a
testament to to Tony Gilroy Nick, what about you? What
were your first impressions.

Speaker 2 (09:29):
I have two very specific takeaways.

Speaker 5 (09:30):
The first one is, like we have said way too
many times for something that we didn't know we needed
or we didn't ask for. This story is a certain
point of view story from one of the certain point
of view books, because it's, hey, here's a little bit
of a thing about how did we get the plans
to the Desk Star.

Speaker 2 (09:47):
Let's make it a movie. So we made it Rogue one.

Speaker 5 (09:50):
But then we went put, let's dig into that some more,
and so we took a moment and the one I
love so much from a certain point of view is
the argument that Han and Lay are having in the
hallway in hath and the guy that comes through in
between the two of them while they're having the argument.

Speaker 2 (10:01):
We wrote a story about that.

Speaker 5 (10:03):
But we took that and like you said, we blew
it up into two seasons of prestige TV and an
incredible movie. So that's the first thing that I love
about it so much. The other thing is, and I'm
gonna pander just for a brief, brief second to our
good friend Matt from Enid, Oklahoma, because if there's one
thing I have asked for for a very long time,
is I said, where is my West Wing Star Wars?

(10:25):
Because The West Wing is my favorite TV show of
all time? And or is our West Wing Star Wars?
Aaron Sorkin didn't write it, but it's on that level.
It plays at that level, and it gives me every
I want the machinations of the Senate, I want the
things that are going on behind the scenes.

Speaker 2 (10:41):
I want the conversations.

Speaker 5 (10:43):
I want the little, tiny moments that lead to the
spark of rebellion.

Speaker 2 (10:48):
And this gives it to us in spade. So I
couldn't be happier.

Speaker 5 (10:52):
And as somebody who's a fan of those two properties,
I didn't know they would ever run into each other.

Speaker 2 (10:57):
But here we are looking at that.

Speaker 5 (10:59):
Now we've talked about kind of what of our you know,
what our reactions? What are you know to season two
as a whole? I want to expand that lens a
little bit, and I want to ask our panel. I'm
gonna start with Culton first. Culton, now that we've seen
season one, you've seen Season two, We've gone through this
whole journey with these two.

Speaker 2 (11:14):
How does it.

Speaker 5 (11:15):
Change not only how you view Rogue one, which obviously
it backs right up into but what does it do
for your kind of view of the Star Wars canon
overall to have and or season one and two as
a part of your knowledge of Star Wars now?

Speaker 2 (11:29):
Well, you know, to.

Speaker 7 (11:30):
Pete's point, I actually haven't had a chance to watch
Rogue one or like very like any scenes or anything
since finishing and Or. I look forward to actually doing
that and seeing, in fact, I might watch like that
last episode one more time and then go into Rogue one,
because I'm sure that it ties in great in terms
of how it makes me look at the saga as

(11:52):
a whole. I mean, I think it was always kind
of clear, Like I have actually recently gone back and
watched a new Hope one recently, and you can tell
in that first one.

Speaker 2 (12:04):
Yeah, Luken and.

Speaker 7 (12:05):
Lea, they feel like they're, you know, very important characters
on this mission, but it's it's very well like established
that there is this whole other like thing that's been
going on that predates them, like a lot of the
groundwork for that ultimate like Luke blowing up the Death Star.
You can tell just by watching that movie without needing

(12:25):
to have seen Rogue one or and Or. There are
a lot of people who have given their lives for
this rebellion. It feels, you know, like an old aged universe.
And so I'm just glad that Andor has finally like
explored and shined some light on that wing of Star
Wars in terms of how it fits with.

Speaker 2 (12:43):
The saga as a whole.

Speaker 7 (12:44):
You know, I would think that somebody, obviously, if you're
a big Original trilogy fan, you're gonna I think like
and Or. But also I would think that anybody who's
a prequel Stan would really enjoy and Or, because that's
something that Lucas really got into with the prequel, was
the politics of it, all the trade routes and you know,
the Senate debate that this and Or is exploring the

(13:07):
type of stuff that I wish Lucas could have got
a chance to have a little bit more say with
what went down like in the Clone Wars and all that.
I mean, you can't exactly, like I guess, go that
dark and like Clone Wars, which is where he got
to explore the prequel era even more so, I'm glad
that and Or went there. And I'd really love to
hear Lucas's thoughts on and Or, at least I think.

(13:28):
I think I want to hear Lucas's thoughts on the
Indoor and lest they're not great, then maybe I don't.

Speaker 2 (13:35):
Yeah, I thought it was great.

Speaker 5 (13:36):
I love that, And I think that you hit something
really specific because I thought about this as you were speaking.
With the twentieth anniversary of Revenge of the Sith just
being in the last couple.

Speaker 2 (13:45):
Of weeks and with that getting a re release in
the theaters.

Speaker 5 (13:47):
We've had it on multiple times over that weekend that
it came out at my house, and it was really
timely for that to be on while Indoor was on,
because you get a lot of Imperial Senate stuff in
Revenge of the Sith and you know, heading into to
the end and eventually the dissolution of the Senate certainly
farther down the line.

Speaker 7 (14:04):
Well, and they're actually they're the two darkest Star Wars
stories ever told. And that's why it's so funny that
you see this like, you know, like some people arguing online,
you know that say they don't like and Or, but
you know they go like crazy over Revenge of the Sith.

Speaker 2 (14:18):
Like me too, I love two sides of the same coin.

Speaker 7 (14:22):
Yeah, I'm like, uh, that's like the darkest Star Wars
movie ever made. Like it pushed a lot of boundaries
and that's what I love about it. That's why I
like and Or. So I don't really know what you're
going on about. I won't get in it absolutely.

Speaker 5 (14:36):
David what about you as we widen this lens out
and we look at you know, Rogue one, certainly coming
out of these two episodes or two seasons of TV,
but also kind of just the Star Wars picture as
a whole.

Speaker 2 (14:47):
How does it put it into place for you?

Speaker 3 (14:50):
What I a realization came to me in.

Speaker 2 (14:55):
The second half of season two here of and Or.

Speaker 3 (15:00):
I think I even maybe Pete and I were messaging
back and forth a little bit about this a couple
of weeks ago. What I had to come to terms
with was that we all believe this. Everybody on this
panel is like they're the good guys in the Star
Wars scan community, right, we all believe Star Wars is
for everyone, and we do this. But Star Wars is

(15:20):
for everyone, and yet there is a very different style
of Star Wars that's coming out in different properties right now.
And what I had to come to terms with going
back to where what I've said a few minutes ago,
you know, where Star Wars for me may be much
more mythology and much more Jedi and lightsabers and those
types of things, this is just as much Star Wars

(15:43):
and for people like Colton and some others, you know
that they're finding what they've always you what you said
with the West Wing, right, you're finding what you really
love in the Star Wars franchise. And and that became
when I came to terms with it. It's not always
going to be the Skywalker saga. It's not always going
to be about the Force and those types of things.

Speaker 2 (16:03):
Even though we got that little taste of it in
the third art.

Speaker 3 (16:06):
Of this, which was absolutely wonderful, it's actually what makes this.
It gives me a lot of hope for the future
of the franchise, which as we can see it, Yeah,
I didn't know I was going to say it.

Speaker 2 (16:24):
I didn't want to interrupt. It's okay, Yeah, it does.

Speaker 3 (16:30):
It gives me hope for work what this franchise can
be because we can come out with stories like and
or we can come out with stories like The Acolyte,
which is a very different feel to it, and there
are people that really didn't like it, and there is
a fan base that absolutely loved The Acolyte. And we
have you know, Ahsoka and those types of shows as well,
which I loved Ahsoka right with it. So we're going

(16:55):
to see Star Wars be a playground that fans that
like lots of different styles of shows and movies are
going to be able to have a place to play in.

Speaker 5 (17:07):
I love that, and I want to throw it same
question to you Becca, talking about, you know, putting it
in perspective not only for Rogue one but for the
Star Wars canon, but also because you are a resident
book expert, you get to put another spin on it
that you know. I am certainly not conversing in I
can speak for Pete and say that we're terrible about
the books. We want to be better, but we're not
so for you, after seeing Indoor season one and two,

(17:31):
how does that paint Rogue one for you?

Speaker 2 (17:33):
How does it paint some of the books and things that.

Speaker 5 (17:35):
You know inform, you know, the story that we've gotten,
as well as just kind of the bigger picture on
the whole Star Wars.

Speaker 6 (17:41):
Canon well, to echo what everyone else has kind of insane.
I mean, if you look at the deleted scenes from
especially from the Senate in Attack of the Clones, specifically
right after the assassination attempt on Pamme, which you know

(18:03):
she she yells and of course this wasn't this is deleted.
You have to She's very forceful, which reminds me a
lot of what we get to see Ammathma when she
takes the takes the Senate, you know, takes the stage
center stage, and she's saying missus padmey and the deleted
scene she's saying, wake up, wake up, senators, you must
wake up. She's shouting as at the top of her lungs,

(18:24):
letting them know something's not right here, something is amiss.
And I really wish a lot of that stuff would
have been kept in, especially in Revenge of the Sith. Thankfully,
in the novelization of Matthew Silver, that stuff is extended.
The whole moment when they're in the pod together Pamea,
Maidala and Bailagana, and she says, this is how Liberty dies.

(18:47):
She actually turns to him, not fully around, but turns
to him and she says, you know, do all those things,
do all those things that we can't talk about. Promise me,
make you know. She says, vote for Emperor Palpatine. Make
Monmathma do it too, do everything. So she's already planting
those seats. You guys got to follow through. And what

(19:08):
the beauty of Ander is that it's really about people
who know they're not going to be around. They've already
sold into the cause where we're doing this for the
next generation and a generation after that. They're giving up
everything for that, as Luthen said in season one, and
it's so for it's foreshadowing what we're going to see

(19:30):
in the very final clip, is that we're doing this,
we're sacrificing everything for a sunrise I will never.

Speaker 2 (19:37):
See, we'll never see.

Speaker 6 (19:39):
And even pame A Madala knew that and revenge is
that all the way back then. She knew That's why
she went off to Mustafar to confront Anakin. She knew
it was a lost cause. That's why it took her
so long to even get out of the ship. She
knew she wasn't going to make it back on. I
just think it's beautiful that we get this and it
all begins with her. I can't forget that Padme's the

(20:02):
one who serves the petition of two thousand to Emperor
Palpatine to basically give over his emergency powers back to
the Senate. She planted it. My Mathma follows through, Bailorgana
falls through, and everybody else, I mean Cassie, And as
they said, he's a gatherer. He's been gathering so he
can deliver this message. The force works in mysterious ways.

(20:25):
Not to sound cliche, but everybody involved in this has
some sort of part to play, otherwise it won't come through.
So I think if you really sum it up with
the novelizations, what Tony Gilroy and company did with and
Or is on par with the lyrical prose that Matthew
Stover put into Revenge of the Sith. It's that type

(20:47):
of writing, and it's absolutely beautiful. I mean, we have
the best dialogue and monologues in and Or that we
haven't any other Star Wars. And I'm just being honest
not to mention because I am the only one sitting
here that's a woman. We have the best, the best
women characters in this series, and that just mentioned. Most

(21:10):
of them are moms. They're moms. These moms are written
tremendously and what does I'm sorry, There's nothing better than
a mother's love, a mother's nurturing. And this is what
my mamma gives, not to her own specifically, but to
everybody else, right fix you get it from you get
it from from Claia in her own way, and I

(21:31):
mean Cliah MVP.

Speaker 4 (21:40):
I want to get eybody's opinion on Dedre because she's
it's like, it's like Anakin, right, horrible things they've done,
but they come from a there's no excuse for any
of the horrible things they've done. But then you look
at the way Dedro was treated and you look at
it from it purely. And this is why I want
to get your opinion first on it. Because she's physically

(22:02):
abused at work, right, I mean, you know, by her
boyfriend on Gorman and by.

Speaker 2 (22:13):
Or Synchrona.

Speaker 4 (22:14):
He literally grabs her by the throat and puts her
down in her chair and says, we'll be fine without you.
And she has her story. I started to feel bad
for her in her story a little bit when she
was talking about she's always had to be a scavenger,
and I thought of all the women who've had to
work a little bit extra hard to get ahead at
work and it doesn't get recognized. And when they do
something and it does get recognized, sometimes it's downplayed. What

(22:37):
was your overall feeling on Dendro, because I agree there
were other fantastic female characters, but Detro was playing it
in a very different side, I think.

Speaker 6 (22:47):
Oh yeah, Now, Denise is a fabulous actress what she
was able to portray, just even with outwards the shaking
of the hand, pulling down her uniform and the collar
like you feel that. But first and foremost, she is
written to be a bad person. She is a bad
person period, regardless of what's happened to her. She has

(23:08):
always made bad choices because of her She's a product
of her upbringing. Okay, she was raised, as she claims,
in an imperial kinder block. We had what we needed,
you know, So she's already brainwashed in a sense. I'm
using that because that's what it is. She's brainwashed to
believe this is the way of life, this is the

(23:29):
right way. So yeah, she did have to scavenger. But see,
somewhere along the line, before this unfolded the way it did,
she should it should have clicked. It doesn't click until
she's in that cell that oh my gosh, I completely
fudged up.

Speaker 2 (23:46):
Ye like that.

Speaker 6 (23:47):
That's when it clicks that she realizes she's been on
the wrong side all this time. Yeah, because even Krenik
tells her, he calls her out, you missed your calling.
So yeah, she's I mean, again, the acting by Denise
was just phenomenal. But again, it's hard for me to
have some sense of sympathy when I know she's done.

(24:09):
I mean, I know you put her on the same
I guess scale is Anakin, but see, I don't see that.

Speaker 4 (24:15):
That's a little bit of an extreme yeh, but yeah,
that is.

Speaker 6 (24:19):
And I'm not justifying him because he did horrible things.
There's no justifying that. But when Anakin was Anakin, he
was good. He was a good person. She was never good, right, yeah,
she was never great?

Speaker 2 (24:31):
True? Sorry, col Do you have any thoughts on deadro
as a character.

Speaker 7 (24:36):
Well, I mean, you just have to keep in mind
that this is a war, and a war, and I
think and Or showed this great. There are not many
good guys. Both sides are going to do horrible things,
and they might acknowledge that they're horrible, or maybe they're
brainwashed enough to think, oh, well, it's justified. I think

(24:57):
you'll see that on both sides of a war. I
think they show that great in and Or. I mean,
we have to keep in mind that the rebels, I mean,
they're they're terrorists. I mean, I'm on their side, but
they're terrorists. And they're doing things that are morally gray
or maybe just you know clear, like, hey, that's im moral,
but I'm doing it for a you know, a sunrise

(25:17):
I'll never see. So I like that they gave us
a little bit of that conflict with her character in
terms of like, I love to your point about her
being a woman in this galaxy. And yeah, sure, the
Star Wars galaxy is probably a little bit more progressive
in terms of acceptance, but I mean it's been clearly established,

(25:38):
like in the Cannon and I know, you know, New
Hope was made back in the seventies, and that of
course has something to do with it. But and as
we see in and Or, you'll see that all the
top ranking you know, imperial people are you know, white guys.
So I think it makes sense that in canon we
can assume that it is hard for a woman to

(25:58):
climb those ranks. We've seen Empire is very prejudice toward
non humans, you know, that's part of that galaxy. So yeah,
I think they handled her character really well. Stellar performance.
I was gonna grab it, but I think it's across
the room. I actually just picked up her vintage collection figure.

Speaker 4 (26:15):
Yeah, so you're doing your part. That's good, David. Do
you have any fuss on Dendra.

Speaker 3 (26:23):
Well, we I mean, this is something that has been
said in so many different ways for different characters throughout
the decades, that you know, the best villains are the
ones that are that think that they're.

Speaker 2 (26:36):
The good guy. And that's the beauty of Dedra, right.

Speaker 3 (26:39):
She never wants doubts her righteousness throughout this, even to
the extent of being willing to break Imperial Security Bureau
protocol in order to go after Luthen when she's been
told not to. She's not supposed to be going after access.
Now she's going to arrest him. She's been continuing to

(27:02):
do this. She's exactly the overstepping that the rebellion needed
to be successful, her coming in there, making all of
those mistakes opened up. If she doesn't do that, then
rogue one doesn't exist, and what we see in a

(27:23):
New Hope doesn't exist. And that was such a beautiful
way of setting her character up because you love her
and you hate her and you understand her throughout.

Speaker 2 (27:32):
The bost seasons of this, and deniseid in amazing.

Speaker 4 (27:35):
And I think that's actually one of the things that
and Or did as a series incredibly well was and
they did it without introducing Vader and the Emperor. The
bad guys are bad guys that you love to hate,
like every single one of them. So speaking of which, David,
let me go to you. Nick and I every week
would pick our MVP. So ione take Cassie and off
the table because it's named after him as the name

(27:57):
of his show, but let's take him off the table.

Speaker 2 (27:59):
Who who was your MVP of the series? Who?

Speaker 4 (28:04):
And to find that however you like? But who was
the character that you walked away from the series with
the most feelings for in one way or another?

Speaker 2 (28:14):
It was really interesting.

Speaker 3 (28:15):
How if you would have asked me this question at
because I'm in Central Times so this show comes on
at APM, if you would have asked me this question
at seven forty five pm Tuesday evening, my answer would
have been very different. I did not really get into

(28:36):
Claya as a character. I thought she was kind of like,
why do we even have her in this show? She
just there to have something to play off of Luthen
right with it? And I came out of the series thinking,
oh wait, so Luthering really wasn't the hero that put
the rebellion together. Claya was the hero that put the
rebellion together right, because what Luthan is doing is as

(29:01):
a way to his own weird, twisted way, in my opinion,
at least, of trying to redeem himself for the absolute
horrible things that he did to her family and her
plane and her people. And when he finds her, it
becomes real to him about what he's doing, and he
makes it his mission to rescue her and to be
a part of her life and to submit to protect her.

(29:22):
And she's the one that's pushing for what we see
on Maboo. I believe we've it's been established that we
see all of these moments. She's the one constantly pushing.
And then when you look back season one, season two
of Andor, it's always her. She's resolved, she knows what
she's doing. She's calling Luten out, she's calling Mon out,

(29:44):
she's calling Bell out, all of them because she needs
to keep this rebellion going forward. And so the beautiful
thing about her ending it goes back to a lot
of the things that we've been talking about with the
way that they wrap up the stories and with it,
she's the type of woman that is so confident in

(30:07):
who she is that she doesn't have to get the credit,
which most of the strongest women I know are like that, right,
They let us weak, insecure men get the credit for
all of the stuff while they're the ones that make
it happen behind the scenes.

Speaker 2 (30:25):
And that's exactly what's going on with her. So Clay
is without a doubt my MPB. It's great.

Speaker 4 (30:29):
And Becca, I feel like you're in the same boat
as David, or maybe not, but certainly sharing sharing the
same concept on that one character for sure.

Speaker 6 (30:39):
Oh absolutely. First of all, I can't I can't think
everyone that made Ander enough because I feel seen the
whole hospital, the whole scrum. But anyway, going back to Claya,
it's really interesting because I haven't really heard too many
people saying this, but it's like, does anyone not see
the parils here? Luthen and Claia are exactly saw in Gin? Okay,

(31:04):
both little girls were in a sense, you know, had
these surrogate fathers, not because they wanted them, but because
they had to. You know, Saw raised Gin to be
this smarter, to be this weapon, and he left her
at the age of sixteen because people were gaining interest
in the Urso connection. So he leaves her alone with

(31:25):
nothing but a knife on a mission. Okay, at sixteen,
then you get Claia. Like you said, she's good at disguise,
good at being the decoy. Look at what she did
at that whole thing with with Lannie. You know she
that Oh my gosh, she's just incredible. I mean, I
just it still strikes me that Tony did this, and

(31:48):
he gave this parallel to the Gin in Saw scenario.
This is exactly what this is. Only Luthen doesn't leave
her when things get too hard, things don't get too much.
He actually tells her I will do the bird because
he knows that if she stays behind, it's going to
be her. Yeah, he sacrifices himself for her. Let's also
say this also messhes well because you just recently watched

(32:11):
Rogue one when they decide that they're going to go
to Scaif and Gin is so taking a back bite,
she goes, I'm not used to people sticking around when
things go bad, because all left her. What does he say,
Kasi in welcome home? Yeah, welcome home, because I mean
it's just the again, not to be cliche, but the

(32:33):
forest works in mysterious ways because he's gathering he has
to gather gin because without gin, there is no message
from the messenger right right there it is. It's just, yeah,
Clay is awesome.

Speaker 2 (32:45):
I love that that connection.

Speaker 4 (32:47):
I did not get the I didn't I didn't see
it the first time until you just said it, the
connection with the saw gin parallel, And yeah.

Speaker 2 (32:56):
That's that's a really good pick up. What about you, Golden,
Was there MVP for.

Speaker 7 (33:00):
You, critic? No, I'm just kidding, you know. I made
this comparison recently. I don't know if you guys have
seen better Call Saul. That's a show that it's, you know,
named after one character, but it's just as much a
story about this other character, Mike German Trout, and their

(33:21):
two stories run parallel for a long time, like they
don't really cross paths, and then like eventually they'll Crossbaus
for a little bit and then they go completely separate again.
And I think that that's what they did perfectly with
and or that this show could have just as easily
been called man Mathma. And I think that she's the
MVP of this show.

Speaker 2 (33:42):
I love her character.

Speaker 7 (33:44):
I want to see more of her, like in a
post return of the Jedi like story like I want
them to do, like a story that takes place after
returning the Jedi recasts the original three and have her
their show, her becoming the Chancellor and all that, her
calling it aside what it is, her uh, you know,

(34:04):
taking this fight to Palpatine, calling him out in the Senate,
you know, willing to leave her family and all that behind.
I think that she is a standout for this show,
and I think a Ledda that There's two things that
that struck me about mon Mathma, and they both happened
in the last couple episodes the last two arcs.

Speaker 4 (34:22):
One was the way Genevievo Riley played her when Cassie
and shot people right in front of her. You realize,
oh shit, she's never really seen that part. She's read
at it, she's gotten reports on it, but she's never
seen that. And then the second part, which I thought
was so so great, was heard just eating breakfast with
all the troops. She was just one of the rebels

(34:44):
and explained to the she you know, she had to
walk away from chan Chandrilla with all the fancy hairstyles
and everything, and she's she's living with the troops. She's
living in the dirt with the troops, and and that
says a lot about a leader, I think so.

Speaker 7 (34:57):
And that again ties perfectly into how and Ors. You know,
we've been saying it's just one aspect of the type
of story you can tell in Star Wars, and then
you see the same thing within the show itself is
different kinds of stories being told through and Or and
then through Mond it's perfect.

Speaker 2 (35:15):
It's perfect.

Speaker 7 (35:15):
And with her reaction to him shooting, yeah, that's this
great like crossover point where you realize, oh, they've been
on two pretty different paths but going on the same mission,
which I think is how this show.

Speaker 2 (35:26):
Ties in perfectly to the whole saga who's your MVP?

Speaker 5 (35:39):
It's the favorite child question, And it's not really fair
to ask who is your favorite character?

Speaker 2 (35:44):
Who's your MVP?

Speaker 5 (35:45):
Because there are so many aspects of just how well written,
how many layers there are to this show. But they're
not going to be forced to pick somebody besides Trenik.

Speaker 2 (35:54):
Obviously, I'm going to go with Biggs.

Speaker 5 (35:57):
And we've talked already about strong women, and there's no
secret I'm a fan of strong women.

Speaker 2 (36:02):
I live in a house full of them.

Speaker 5 (36:05):
But this is a character who, despite the trauma that
she went through, not only in season two, but in
season one, the torture, the loss, all the things that
she experienced, to have the inner fortitude and the strength
that she had when presented with the opportunity to go,
let's just get out of here, let's run away.

Speaker 2 (36:25):
We don't have to be here anymore. To know that
Cassian was.

Speaker 5 (36:29):
Needed and to say I'm going to go because you
won't if I'm here, Like again, sacrificing for the rebellion,
the decisions.

Speaker 2 (36:37):
So much of this show has been about sacrifice.

Speaker 5 (36:39):
What mindmuthem, the sacrifice with her personal life, her career,
her family, all of the characters that Claia Luthan, you
go all the way down the line, even with Cyril
and Dedra.

Speaker 2 (36:48):
And all these other you know, the imperial characters.

Speaker 5 (36:50):
The personal sacrifices that are made in this show show
you how personal something like rebellion can be. And for
Bicks to make the choices she made, and just like
you know Luthen's speech, she sacrificed her happiness for a
bigger thing, and it's so powerful and it's so strong.
And then to see how that pays off at the

(37:11):
end of the show and to kind of have that
little you know, we said it on the episode review
that we did that kind of pseudo Sopranos moment when
she's on that planet, standing there holding that baby and
turns and looks and has that little smile.

Speaker 2 (37:24):
What are we looking at there? Who may have swung
by for just a minute before they went to you know,
the rings of kaffriein.

Speaker 5 (37:30):
I don't know, but if I'm picking an MVP, it's
fix And it's because of the strength that she constantly
pulled from in order to pull herself out of the
trauma that she went through, the ways that she had
to deal with it, whether it was the drugs, whether
it was you know, getting the revenge, getting doctor what'son's
face and you know, blowing up that building and the
whole deal like that. It just it's incredible and it

(37:52):
you know, I was rooting for her all along the way,
but to see how that story and that journey went
was really inspiring. As we look at this, we've kind
of talked about the seasons, We've talked about all of this.
They did something new with Indoor season two. We didn't
get this before, and I want everybody's perspective on it.

Speaker 2 (38:08):
I'm a threat to you.

Speaker 5 (38:09):
First, David, we got three episodes a week for four weeks.
We got a Star Wars movie a week for four weeks.
Did you like it? Did it work for you? Give
me your thoughts on you know how this new change
and consuming some Star Wars content worked for you?

Speaker 2 (38:26):
Well?

Speaker 3 (38:26):
First of all, I love the creativity of it, right,
because for years in this space, you know, I've been
podcasting with Sam and Nate for almost eight years now,
the debate was always the binge version of these releases
or the weeked week version. Love this and that we
never once saw the opportunity for something like this, And
so I felt like it was the perfect sweet spot

(38:49):
at least for this series with it because of the
way that they told these stories, these arcs with it
one year at a.

Speaker 2 (38:56):
Time, and it allowed.

Speaker 3 (38:59):
It allowed there to be a chance to step back
and breathe and think through what happened with some of
these arcs and speculate. And so for all of us
you know, doing YouTube videos, all of us doing uh
podcasting and things like that, we need that space, right.
It's a lot easier to talk about this series and
it would be stranger things when it comes out eight
episodes at once.

Speaker 2 (39:19):
With it, and so you know, we got that opportunity.

Speaker 3 (39:25):
But at the same time it allowed One of the
criticisms of the of the first season was after that
first three episode arc, it was it was pretty much
week to week and it took it took a while.
I was say, I'm thinking of the uh, the prison
arc as well, you know, being being sort of broken

(39:46):
up with that. That would have been more impactful having
been told all at once, and for you know, for
some of us, I think we could, you know, if
if you got a screen Some of us got screeners
and we got to see that arc all at once,
and it made a bigger impact for us.

Speaker 2 (40:00):
That way.

Speaker 3 (40:01):
We got to experience that. I see, you know, the
entire world experience this series that way.

Speaker 2 (40:06):
I absolutely loved it. Cool becha. What about you? How
did how did three a week work for you? Well?

Speaker 6 (40:14):
To echo again, I mean, I'm a long time fanimal,
so I'm used to waiting three, you know, three in
between a movie or you know, in between you know,
eighty three and nineteen ninety nine to get another movie.
So this was a lot I felt like I had
ADHD for a minute there. You know. Thankfully getting screeners

(40:37):
does help with that. Because I didn't have to stay
up late on a worknight, I was able to you know.
I mean, and I hate to say that, I mean,
I'm very grateful that I had that, you know, but
I actually like the rollout because I feel like if
you wait a week in between an arc like that,
you know any of them, you even though they show

(40:57):
you those recaps, it's not enough. I mean again, I'm
fifty now, so you know what I retain week to
week is not the same as I would have ten
years ago. Yeah, so I like it. I think they
should do this more often because again, it's like getting
that film. I mean, and I think we've been longing

(41:18):
for that for a long time because the last time
we had a new Star Wars film, you know, in
the theater, was twenty nineteen. And when you say that,
so long ago, so long ago, long ago?

Speaker 2 (41:30):
Crazy? Yeah.

Speaker 5 (41:31):
Yeah, So, Calton, I'm gonna ask you the same question.
I'm going to post it even just a tiny bit different.

Speaker 2 (41:36):
I know.

Speaker 5 (41:36):
For me, if you give me something week to week, great,
I'll watch it week to week.

Speaker 2 (41:42):
I'll process it I'll think about it.

Speaker 5 (41:44):
I'll rewatch it, you know, one, two, three times, depending
on what it is. But I also know if you
give it to me at all at once, I'm going
to watch it all at once because I'm like, it's
right there, it's waiting for me.

Speaker 2 (41:53):
You're somebody who creates content, You come in on shows,
you do a lot of this stuff.

Speaker 5 (41:57):
How did it work for you getting these three episodes
a week that kind of fit in this arc mode?

Speaker 7 (42:03):
Well, it's like if you have a whole cake in
your fridge, you're going to eat it, but then you're
not going to feel great after, and then a few
days you're going to wish the cake was still there.

Speaker 2 (42:12):
Right like every day.

Speaker 7 (42:14):
Yeah, okay, I'm of two minds of it. There's my mind,
that's you know, my job. And of course it would
be much easier better for us, like workflow wise, view wise,
you know, keep it going longer, to have had like
twelve weeks of one episode per week coverage, that would

(42:37):
have been better for our business model.

Speaker 2 (42:41):
Ignoring that just.

Speaker 7 (42:42):
As a fan, Yeah, I love binging stuff too, Like
I said, with the cake, if there's a cake in
my fridge, it's gone.

Speaker 2 (42:49):
So yes, if it's there, I'll binge the whole thing.

Speaker 7 (42:53):
But there is something so fun about and I know
it's frustrating, like when there's a cliffhanger, like right now,
I've been catching up on Last of Us and I'm
caught up now and I'm like, ah, I want more,
And so I kind of spoiled myself on that, But
I like, and I think it's better for the show

(43:15):
itself if you keep that conversation going and having like
those those water cooler conversations. I think it gets the
word out about the show better. That's why I'm glad
Netflix finally with Stranger Things at least split the season
in two, you know, drop the first half in the
second half so you can get some word of mouth.
Because I think when you just drop it all at once,

(43:37):
I don't that's not good for how we do videos.
I also just don't think it's good for the show itself.
And Or kind of did kind of walk to that
middle line. They didn't drop it all at once, but
they did three arcs or four arcs, right, three episodes each.

Speaker 2 (43:52):
YEP.

Speaker 7 (43:55):
I guess it's fine because if that's how they plan
to do it from the jump, then to quote George Lucas,
it's stylistically designed to be that way, but we can
diminish the effects of it. Anybody get that prettyquel documentary line.
I personally wish that they had done it episode by episode.
I'm a big advocate for if you were not a sitcom,

(44:18):
a cartoon or a spaghetti western, I want your shows
to be at least an hour long, and I want
one a week.

Speaker 2 (44:25):
That's how I think that was the perfect model.

Speaker 7 (44:28):
I think it's proven that that was the perfect model,
like with Breaking Bad, Game of Thrones, succession. You know,
you look at the most recent shows that are all
in that same genre, I think as and or, and
that's the model for releasing them. So as cool as
it is to get a Star Wars movie every week,
I do wonder if they would have had even more

(44:48):
like word of mouth success had they cut the show
a little differently and released one episode a week.

Speaker 2 (44:55):
That would be my preference. Yep, yeah, that makes sense, Kate.

Speaker 5 (44:59):
You and I have talked about this off and on
throughout when it was announced. Throughout the course of this
we were also lucky enough to get the screeners, and
I think honestly it helped us with you know, busy
lives and trying to do shows and that kind of thing.
So it worked out. Where do you ultimately end up
on the three arc a week, three episode a week situation.
I think it was great for a couple of reasons.

Speaker 4 (45:19):
Number one, I think it was one of the things
that I noticed, especially when we would when we would
break them down, I noticed that episode two of each arc.

Speaker 2 (45:32):
Left you in a Flea was kind of a down show.

Speaker 4 (45:36):
Other than the other than the the Gorman Massacre, but
it was kind of a down moment before going into
the launch, so you would have to wait a full
week after coming out of something that which is why
I think releasing the first three episodes of season one,
they did it the way they did it. However, I
would do something a little bit different and well, and

(45:59):
I think you sort of lean into this a little
bit when you were talking about the way Stranger Things
did things. I would have gotten four months of subscriptions
out of it. I would have done one a month,
like maybe the first Tuesday of the month. I would
have dropped it uh RC one, R two or three
because that does a couple of things. It'll keep people
talking about it for that next month, it keeps your subscription.

(46:20):
I mean, I hate to just put on the business
app with the reality is you need only two months
for this show.

Speaker 2 (46:25):
If you had four, you'd stick up stinging around.

Speaker 4 (46:28):
But I also think it would give people that opportunity
to after like after you watch you know, Solo or
Rise of Skywalker, whatever, you had that opportunity to talk
about it, and it gave people some time to catch
up and and and so I think that would have
been a little bit that I don't know if it
would have been better, but it would have been a
different way to do it, and I think would have
been an interesting way to experiment.

Speaker 7 (46:49):
I think we're also at a point where there is
so much, especially just Disney alone. They are putting out
so much stuff, which great, but I feel like a
lot of people are getting to a point where they
feel like they just do not have time to watch everything.
It feels like homework, Like oh, I need to binge

(47:09):
three hours of this show before I can watch this
next week's episode.

Speaker 2 (47:14):
So I can see that being a problem.

Speaker 7 (47:16):
And can I just say I think I kind of
brushed over this in my point about like, if you're
not a spaghetti western, a sitcom or a cartoon. My
point to that is I love that we are actually
getting our long episodes and not that twenty two minute Yeah,
you don't account for credits stuff. So I want to
praise and or for that as well, for actually giving

(47:36):
us real TV.

Speaker 2 (47:39):
Amen.

Speaker 4 (47:39):
Yeah, the thirty six minute episodes of Oh notes again
half of its credits. Wait a minute, let's take a
slightly different direction here and let's talk with it. We're
some unanswered questions and some some plot points that were

(48:01):
left open. I don't know if any of you had
any in particular I'll leave it. You know, we don't
have to do in any particular order. Does anybody have
any unanswered questions that, even knowing what happens in Rogue
one and a New Hope, anything that you wish they
had answered? Beca does, Beca's got what hold does?

Speaker 6 (48:20):
Let's bring what happened to Kaza's sister?

Speaker 2 (48:24):
Yeah?

Speaker 6 (48:25):
I really want to know where she ended up? Yeap,
that still bugs me. I read the interview.

Speaker 2 (48:32):
I get it.

Speaker 6 (48:33):
Tony's like, well, how many things in your lifetime do
you leave unresolved? I get that, but this is a sibling.

Speaker 4 (48:40):
They were close, and they referenced it in the last episode,
like they like he reminded you.

Speaker 6 (48:46):
That, Yeah, a little flashback, you know, just trying to
wake them up. Yeah. So, And I think that's to
show his regret in a sense that he didn't go back,
which is why he keeps going back for everybody else,
which I can understand it. That's part of his flaw.
But he's a human, you know what I mean. He
can't leave anyone behind. And I think in a sense,

(49:08):
him bringing Clia back was in a way bringing his
sister back, even though it's not his sister, if it
makes a little sense. Yeah, I don't know, but that
like that bothers me. I don't know. I want to
know where she's at, Like why show her at all?

Speaker 7 (49:22):
I think to play Devil's advocate on that. I think
the point to that might be and I agree with
you it would have been nice to know. But that,
like as we saw with Bicks going off, I think
the point is cassy AND's new family is the rebellion,
Like the actual mission of the rebellion, So I guess,
like where his sister has kind of becomes like irrelevant.

Speaker 2 (49:46):
I want to know, like.

Speaker 7 (49:47):
About this the super weapon, Like how is the rebellion,
Like are they going to destroy it? The Palpatine guy
if they're going to beat him? Man, I hope they
make a sequel, right, Yeah. I just felt like there
was so much on antel, like a lot of setup,
like we're just seeing the space station be built and like.

Speaker 4 (50:04):
I don't know, death something either way, Yeah, which is ridiculous.

Speaker 2 (50:10):
A car to close it up? Yeah, I mean it's
a little on the nose. I don't know.

Speaker 7 (50:16):
I'm hoping that maybe there's like a it'd be cool
if like one of the engineers just like secretly a
rebel or something, and like he puts in like a
you know, like a fail say for something where they
could blow it up.

Speaker 2 (50:27):
But that might be a little much. I don't know.

Speaker 4 (50:29):
I've got a movie for you to check out Cold,
a couple of them.

Speaker 2 (50:34):
Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 5 (50:36):
Recommendations coming your way, David.

Speaker 2 (50:39):
Were there any unanswered questions for you? Not necessarily an
answer questions.

Speaker 3 (50:43):
I would say that one thing that I was really
hoping to see flesh out a little bit more was
I kind of wanted to see when Galen sends body
uh to Saw. I kind of anticipated that happening uh
in this in this last arc. This last arc went

(51:03):
in a direction I did not expect at all, and
you and I were texting.

Speaker 2 (51:08):
About it earlier today. Pee with it, I was like.

Speaker 3 (51:11):
I needed I really thought we were going down that
path coming into last Tuesday night, and was a little
bit like when are we going to get there?

Speaker 2 (51:20):
And then it was like I realized, oh wait, we're not.

Speaker 3 (51:23):
So now I've got to accept the story and kind
of get into the story that we're in.

Speaker 2 (51:27):
And obviously I loved it. I mean, I mean Clay
at my MVP with it.

Speaker 3 (51:31):
I am glad though, to talk to go back to
the conversation about Cassie and sister. I am so glad
that they didn't tie it all up in a pretty
bow and like give you some big reveal where in
the theories about Claya being his sister and all of this.

(51:52):
And at one point it kind of felt like they
going there, which you kind of reference a little bit earlier,
I think, Nick, But yeah, they didn't actually make that happen,
and that would have been very.

Speaker 2 (52:08):
It would have been two Star Wars, right, it would
have been to everybody's connected on your father, everybody's you know,
all of this kind of stuff.

Speaker 3 (52:15):
That's going on, and that's not what this series has
been at all, and that needed to not happen.

Speaker 2 (52:22):
I'm so glad that they didn't make that happen. Yep,
I agree with that.

Speaker 5 (52:27):
And I'll say mine kind of ties in similarly to that.
As great as it would have been to see Kenolloy
pop up somewhere at the end, because again not dead
on screen, not dead wherever. We know you can't swim,
but like if at the end in a closing shot
like he's you know, ratcheting and x wing in the
background or something, that would have been great. But at

(52:49):
the same time, I'm really glad they didn't do that
because again, you have to be able to have people
who come in and out of your life, who come
in and out and get you on a path heading
into action, but they don't necessarily get to go with
you on that journey and.

Speaker 7 (53:03):
So become I am glad he becomes snoke just so
you know, oh that's right.

Speaker 2 (53:10):
Again, there's there's a movie down the road for you.
It's all going to tie together.

Speaker 5 (53:16):
So so yeah, I don't think I just thought that
was a good I'm glad they didn't make that choice.

Speaker 2 (53:22):
I think it worked better as they did it. Yep.

Speaker 6 (53:26):
I'm just laughing really quick though, because you know he
can't swim, but yet we see all the snokes in
a jar with fluid. I'm just sorry, I had to
so sorry.

Speaker 2 (53:39):
But they're not swimming in the jar. It's always it's
always to.

Speaker 9 (53:48):
Yeah, cool, what, I'm sorry, I didn't we're thinking about snokes.

Speaker 2 (53:59):
In jar and how're really not swimming? Becca? I do
have a question for you.

Speaker 5 (54:04):
You are our extert in Star Wars literature, in books
watching Indoor seasons one and two, this is your chance.
What are the recommendations for people coming out of and
or one and two that may not be booked people,
because we know there's so many more incredible stories that
exist that fill in even more of these gaps, even

(54:25):
more of these stories.

Speaker 2 (54:26):
What would be some of.

Speaker 5 (54:27):
The Tarkans top shelf official recommendations based on watching Indoor?

Speaker 6 (54:33):
Okay, so these are again not in this order necessarily Okay,
So just Rebel Rising. This is the Saw and Generous
so story, you know, and you know even after he
leaves her with a knife at the age of sixteen
by herself, and how she gets out of that. Yeah,
very very cool. But yet she still has affection towards him,

(54:53):
so that just speaks to her moral compass. Yeah, just
so there's that this absolute I love. This just came
out in February. Please please get this. This series is
going to be phenomenal. This happens right after Revenge of
the Sith. It's about the first year and how Bail
are gonna and Month deal with that aftermath, and also

(55:17):
they team up with Saw for a little bit. It's
really good this this book. When when we read this
on our podcast, I actually said, there's no way now
you cannot have Bail. We're gonna show up in season
two like he needs to, so so happy. And Benjamin Bratt,
can you just say, yeah, ye he was great.

Speaker 2 (55:36):
Oh he was.

Speaker 6 (55:38):
He had that whole essence of Bail really perfect.

Speaker 4 (55:40):
If you had to replace him, he was And I
think you said it online and I think it's a
great comment. Nobody complained when they changed out Brea for
the Obi Wan Kenobe series.

Speaker 6 (55:50):
Why why, I don't know, but you know.

Speaker 2 (55:54):
And I love this.

Speaker 5 (55:55):
I love Jimmy Smiths and I love what he did
in West Wing. But I think, but I think for
what Bail needed to do in this series. I think
Benjamin Bratt did a better job than Jimmy Smiz would
have done to be that character. The way he played it,
you think out loud.

Speaker 2 (56:12):
I do I think I think he.

Speaker 5 (56:14):
I think he played that part better than Jimmy Smiths
would And I love Jimmy Smiths and I loved him
as you know bail in the earlier stuff. But I
think for this show and the tone and everything that
it brought to it, because it gave a little bit
of that even though I know the story, I had
little moments where I went, I don't know if I
trust him.

Speaker 2 (56:32):
I'm not so sure he's on our side.

Speaker 5 (56:34):
Like he carried it in a way that I don't
know that Jimmy Smiths could have as convincingly.

Speaker 6 (56:39):
Yeah, and I love the line when Kea Chu says
the man, the man that you don't like is here.
I absolutely love that. This one. Always this is a
prequel to Rogue one, so it's someone it fits before
and then even after and or if that makes sense,
so it goes right into Rogue one. So catalysts and

(57:02):
then this one good friend of the show, Chris Kemshaw,
doctor Chris Kempshaw, So you know, the Rise and Fall
of the Galactic Empire. This is ridiculously amazing, I mean
just ridiculous, and it's just awesome and it makes me
wonder what saide doctor Kempshell's really on. But you no,

(57:25):
I'm only teasing. I know it's not done, but it's
just it's that good and it really it offers a
lot of insight to what we see with you know,
Dedra and Critic and why they are the way they
are and what makes them all tick, which we kind
of get to see obviously, which is nice for change.
So yeah, those are my four recommended.

Speaker 4 (57:46):
I've seen that book on shelf and I've always been
attracted to is it a story or is it a
just sort of like a history.

Speaker 6 (57:52):
It's okay, so and of course he would be very
upset with me Mshall, but the character he okay, have
you read Kristen Babs Skywalker. Yeah, it's written like that,
so basically it's a historian telling you the history. So
it's written in you know, someone else's voice, and actually

(58:15):
he uses I can't think of his name from Rise
of Skywalker. He's the one that basically tells you about
you know, the Sith and there you know, and that's
when Poe says, somehow Palpatine that whole thing, you know,
so but anyway, it's it's really somehow Palpatine return.

Speaker 4 (58:38):
You always have to have that, right, Yeah, So that
that's a book I'm definitely you have to pick up
for sure, Colton, I'll throw this to you and and

(58:58):
we'll start there. But Screen Crush, of course, is without
a doubt the place for Easter eggs and things that
we might have missed on all of our favorite shows.

Speaker 2 (59:05):
I now watch your all of us.

Speaker 4 (59:07):
Uh of course, you know if there's a show I like,
you guys have a covered, which is great. But while
and Or didn't really have as much in your face
member Berry as it did have some here and there.
So how do you and the rest of the panel
kind of feel about that sort of lack of overt
fan servicey cameos? Like there was plenty of opportunities to

(59:28):
show us bader or planets like tattooing the lethal Do
you think it? I mean, I think we would all
agree that it helped, but was it noticeable that it
changed the perception? And David, to your point, it's sort
of like the you know when and Or first came out,
you sort of compared it to pizza, right, everybody Star
Wars is like pizza. Everybody's got their favorite topics and so.

(59:50):
But do you think that there was not enough fan
servicey things? Did it feel? Maybe the best way for
this has a great question to sort of wrap every
up with everybody is didn't feel Star Wars y?

Speaker 2 (01:00:00):
Dude. I know David does something you was struggling with,
But Colton, where do you start with that?

Speaker 7 (01:00:05):
I mean to push back a little, I think it
feels very like Star Wars. I mean, my mom was there,
Erghana's there, that there's Stormtroopers running around. I feel like,
you know, a as a hardcore Star Wars family. Yeah,
this is a Star Wars show critic is there?

Speaker 2 (01:00:23):
Saw? So yeah? I take your point.

Speaker 7 (01:00:26):
Like, no, they didn't drop Vader or anything, but I
was glad that several times they dropped like Emperor Palpatine.

Speaker 2 (01:00:32):
I'm like, all right, nice, nice.

Speaker 7 (01:00:34):
I'm not huge on the throwing a character or a
reference in for the sake of doing it. I wanted
to have some meaning and some reason behind it. And
I think and Or walks that line great. I mean
I could see how maybe too a more like someone
who this isn't their entire life watching Star Wars might

(01:00:56):
be like, hey, where's like, you know, somebody with a
lightsaber or something like that.

Speaker 2 (01:01:00):
But that's just that's not the point of this show.
So I think they handled it well.

Speaker 4 (01:01:05):
Yeah, Nick, and I said on the uh when we
covered the last three episode, or if I thought for sure,
if there was an opportunity, I thought we were going
to see party as we brought before Darth Vader. I
thought that was going to be his entrance. But if
they did that, that's all we would have talked about.
We would have missed the rest of those episodes because
we would have been so focused on on Darth Vader.

(01:01:28):
So I think I think they handled it perfectly. I
take it back.

Speaker 7 (01:01:31):
I want Cassie in in the world between worlds talking
to something.

Speaker 4 (01:01:38):
What he realizes that the forces drove it everything he's done.
What about you, David?

Speaker 2 (01:01:45):
The uh? You know that that I still that pizza
comment has stuck.

Speaker 3 (01:01:50):
Yeah, well, okay, So the idea was that you could
be at the best pizza restaurant in the world right
and order cheese bread and it may be the most
amazing cheesebread you've ever had, but it's still not pizza.
And that's what I was trying to use as a
metaphor for if you know, this is kind of the
way season one of and Or felt for me. Again,

(01:02:14):
I've said over and over again how much.

Speaker 2 (01:02:15):
This series is amazing, right, and I love it.

Speaker 3 (01:02:18):
I think that what the third arc of season two,
I finished watching it with Sam and Nate and we
were sitting on the couch.

Speaker 2 (01:02:28):
Actually it was weird.

Speaker 3 (01:02:29):
I was sitting on my couch with Nathan, and then
Sam was watching it from his new house he just bought.
And if you have ever listened to the show, he
was sixteen when we started the podcast and now he
owns a house, and so it's weird.

Speaker 2 (01:02:39):
But anyway, he was.

Speaker 3 (01:02:42):
We were watching it, and we were messaging back and
forth about it, and I said, this series is to
Star Wars, and Or is to star Wars what the.

Speaker 2 (01:02:50):
Biblical Book of Esther is to the Biblical canon.

Speaker 3 (01:02:55):
The Biblical Book of Esther has no mention of God
what's soever anywhere in it, and yet God and his
hand moving throughout the narrative is present throughout. And when
I saw the force Healer and the things that she
said to Cassian in episode seven, and then what Luthan

(01:03:18):
says to Cassian in episode nine about you're always in
the right spot, You're always here, you know. It's it's
it's clear that the Force has been guiding Cassian throughout
all of this, even though we don't have Jedi, we
don't have Sith, we don't have Vader, we don't have lightsabers.

Speaker 2 (01:03:36):
We don't have any of that. And I was like,
that's what this is actually.

Speaker 3 (01:03:40):
A brilliant story because you see the Force moving all
throughout Cassian's arc and you don't have to actually tell
everybody that that's what's going on.

Speaker 2 (01:03:52):
Yeah, it's beautiful. That's a great that's a great observation.
I love that. I beg anything to add to that.

Speaker 6 (01:04:00):
No, I mean, you know, I don't know if you're
trying to like get onto like you know, putting something
in there for fan service type thing. But I was
just happy, like I said, going back to my book recommendations,
that they even though Jimmy Smith was not going to
be able to make it work, they're brave enough to recast.

(01:04:21):
And I think that needs to happen more. Yes, Okay,
because let's face it, I mean, if we're getting older,
that means certain actors are getting older and they're just
not going to be there anymore. Some of them aren't
even there anymore, but yet their characters are living on
in a timeline where it's building and it's going to

(01:04:41):
be necessary. I'm hinting at Lea anyway, just saying, but yeah,
you know, to play off what we were just talking
about with the Force. I mean even in Rogue One,
like you said, we don't see Jedi, but yet the
Force is a very prominent character. It's funny because when

(01:05:01):
you bring up at Force Killer and what she says
about you know, now getting clarity on Kasian's path, you know,
as this messenger is gathering as he goes. It really
brought me back to Rogue One with Charu, when when
Base is like, where are you going, he goes, I'm
following Jim. Her path is clear. I mean, if that's

(01:05:24):
not the Force making sure these two come together to
do what they need to do, then I don't know,
I don't know what it is. You know. Let's also
remember too, Lira or So was a member of the
Church of the Forest, but yet somehow she aligned with
Saw Guerrera someone make that make sense?

Speaker 7 (01:05:42):
Right?

Speaker 6 (01:05:43):
Yeah, so this is the force that will because Lutheran says,
to what Kassian, you know, because Cassu goes, I've been
making all my own choices, he goes, But have you
somehow you just are where I need you to be.
That's the whole thing. Does the force really give each
in free will? Or don't you? Yepret Well, so yeah,

(01:06:04):
it's really cool.

Speaker 4 (01:06:06):
I love it and it's funny. It's like because also
in Rogue one, when when Turrett says that he feels
like he feels like Cassine is in his own cage
or something, which ties.

Speaker 2 (01:06:22):
Yep, yep, And.

Speaker 4 (01:06:24):
So it's a different sort of form of what the
Force healer said, right that he's he's sort of gathering things,
and and Surance sees him as he's gathering things, but
it's weighing on him. So that's really that's really cool.
So cool, yes, And I will add to your to
your recasting things. I think there was you know, people

(01:06:45):
were looking for something to complain about. And I will
not name the author because I don't know how he'd
feel about it. But Nick was with me when we
were in uh. I'll tell you offline back because you'll
figure it out. But when we were at Star Wars
celebration in California a couple of years ago, we're sitting
with this author and I asked him, I said, with

(01:07:05):
Carrie Fisher passing away, what would you have done? And
he said, I would have recast her, he said, I
wouldn't have been popular, he said, but the story outweighs
the actor. And I think, you know, Benjamin Bratt proved
that this time around. You know, there's a different Dedanna

(01:07:26):
in Rogue one. You know, it's it's it's you need
the character and the story will, as you pointed on
out and it's clear Star Wars will live far beyond
any of us, and if they're going to continue to
tell these stories, you need to have the character live on.
And yeah, you can base it on Carrie Fisher's personality

(01:07:47):
or whatever Mark Hamill brought to Luke Skywalker or whatever
that might be, but you need to be able to
move on otherwise the stories can't. So yeah, So any
partying and it's before we go back, I'll start with you.
Any any partying thoughts on on.

Speaker 2 (01:08:07):
The series or or anything.

Speaker 6 (01:08:12):
You know. It's interesting because again it enriches what we
already know. And I think that speaks volumes to those
creators and the actors and actresses that brought this forward
and the whole cast and crew. And I just think,
you know, we all need to embrace stories because like

(01:08:33):
we were just saying about, you know, pizzas and toppings
and things like that. I mean, yeah, this, I'm just
not a fan of comparing. This one is better than
that one. This is a masterpiece. Commit you know, don't
don't yuck somebody's young, you know. I mean, I don't
rank the films. I never will. I just can't. I

(01:08:56):
just I won't do it.

Speaker 2 (01:08:57):
But we all no Empire's best.

Speaker 6 (01:09:01):
It's just bloom and doom. But then again, so it's
Rogue one. But you know, hey, you know, I just
think it's important that even the little guy gets their
story told, because you know, that's what it's about. It's
more or less about the people, not so much about
the Jedi, if that makes sense, because they're the ones
that are going going through it all. And this is

(01:09:22):
where I think and Or is different from everything else
because we're just following the little guy, trying to make
a difference. And I think that makes for an interesting
story and it's more relatable. You know, not all of
us can wheel the lightsaber or use the force to
open you know, doors, unless you're you know, walking into
Walgreens or something.

Speaker 4 (01:09:40):
But you know, absolutely, David, any party thoughts on and.

Speaker 3 (01:09:45):
Or, I'll go back to what I said earlier towards
the very beginning. I love how this show allows us
to see a future for Star Wars where you can
have very different, diferent style stories being told to different
types of audiences, and it can actually broaden the galaxy.

(01:10:08):
And it's really interesting how that happens when by going
very narrow. This series went very narrow, and went very
narrow and on a handful of people trying to make
a difference in this rebellion. But it's opening up the
galaxy to being much broader for the future. And I
feel really good because of this series. I feel really
good about the future of Star Wars. And that's that's awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:10:31):
That's great, that's great, Colton, what about yourself?

Speaker 7 (01:10:36):
And or and like Thunderbolts, then these are primary like
these are great examples of what you can get when
you let a writer and a director just make their
damn show. Or movie, and don't get two in the weeds,
don't interfere too much. Give them this general outline, we

(01:10:58):
need to start here up here, and just led a
talented creative person with an actual, like stellar resume, handle this,
you know, top tier, like very valuable content. That's exactly
what they did here with and Or. And I hope
that they can continue that, learn from that and push
it into their other brands as well. I hope to

(01:11:20):
see that with Marvel, and I think we're seeing that
with James Gunn with DC. And there's no reason, you know,
I actually was lucky enough to get to see the
new Mission Impossible, which comes out I think in like
a week or two. I get to see it the
other night, and the whole time, Sorry, I know, I'm
kind of going off on a tangent here. The whole time,
I'm sitting there wondering, you know, because Tom Cruise, say

(01:11:42):
what you will about him, he knows how to make
a movie, and he has like this this passion for filmmaking,
and you can just see that in his movies. You
can see it in and Or. And the whole time
I was watching Mission Impossible, I was like, why wasn't
this Brave New World, the New Captain America movie. Why
didn't they go this route? I felt that with indoor watching,
just the quality storytelling they were doing there. I know,

(01:12:04):
you guys, you know I enjoyed Kenobi and Ahsoka to
a certain extent as well, but I was wondering, well,
why didn't Canobi and Ahsoka have this same like I
don't know, just just quality Like Kenobi especially, I wanted
this wartime like PTSD type story that I think that.

Speaker 2 (01:12:22):
They went up to a line, but they never went
past for far enough with it.

Speaker 7 (01:12:26):
Yeah, yeah, I wish they'd gone the and or route
with that, and I hope with the great reception they're
getting from season two that they'll, you know, entertain that idea.

Speaker 5 (01:12:35):
I want to thank all of our panelists for joining us.
It has been such a wonderful conversation, a chance to
connect with all of you. Everybody's socials will be in
the show description in the links below, so check them
out on all the different things they do, Tattoinne Sun's
screen Crush, Tark and Stopshelf. You can't go wrong with
any of those. So thank y'all so much for being
a part of this.

Speaker 2 (01:12:54):
You're a rebel.

Speaker 3 (01:12:55):
Now, Wow, what an incredible conversation and what an under
to be able to hang out for an hour plus
with some of these cool Star Wars people out there.

Speaker 2 (01:13:06):
It was pretty amazing.

Speaker 3 (01:13:08):
As we discussed this epic series and Or as we
wrap up, there are three kind of key points that
really kind of resonated deeply with me, especially as I
think about dads like us who grew up loving Star

(01:13:29):
Wars and are now getting the awesome opportunity to share
with our kids. First, and Or reminds us that the
heart of Star Wars really does lie in fantastic storytelling,
especially about ordinary people that are making extraordinary sacrifices. And
this is such a powerful lesson for our kids about

(01:13:54):
courage and about standing up for what's right even when
the odds are against you, obviously something that we need
to continue to instill in them more than ever now. Second,
the series enriches our understanding of this larger saga. Watching

(01:14:16):
and Or really gives us a fresh perspective on Rogue
one and the rebellion and things that happened in the
prequels that are now impacting in this series. And also
what's going to happen in a new hope and beyond
showing kind of every character, no matter how small, they
actually play a very vital role in this fight for freedom.

(01:14:40):
And that's such a beautiful way to teach our children
that every action counts. And then finally and or challenges
us to embrace the complexity of this Star Wars universe.
It's not always going to be about Jedi and Sith.

(01:15:00):
There are a lot of other things going on, and
there are some really interesting and compelling moral dilemmas that
are being faced by those who are fighting for a
better future. And this depth of storytelling is something that
we can discuss with our kids. We can help them

(01:15:22):
really appreciate these nuances. So I want to thank Pete
and Nick for asking me to join them for this
breakdown on the streaming Star Wars Network. Make sure you
check out their show Each Thursday evening, they go live
with some really great interviews and great guests and conversation.
It's a very different experience than just another run of

(01:15:46):
the mill Star Wars podcast, so I highly recommend it.
If you're a Star Wars book person, you have got
to check out Tarkan's topshelf. These guys have been doing
it with excellence and the right way for even longer
than Tatooine's Suns, which is hard to believe. We've been

(01:16:07):
doing this for almost eight years. They've been doing it
for a lot longer than that. Becka Benjamin is great.
Mark over there The Target Stop Shop is a fantastic podcast.
You've got to check it out. And then, of course,
if you love anything in movie and TV, you you
probably know about Screen Crush, So check out obviously Screen Crush,
but also check out Colton Augburn's personal YouTube. You can

(01:16:30):
just search him Colton Augburn. You're gonna find him. He's
on X and threads and Instagram and YouTube and all
of that. He does some really I love Colton's specifically
the way he is able to see connections between things
and how they relate to the larger story, and it's

(01:16:50):
it's so much fun.

Speaker 2 (01:16:51):
I was watching a video of his just.

Speaker 3 (01:16:52):
Earlier today about secret wars and doomsday and what's going
on with that. It's really good. I highly recommend him.
Thank you for joining us for this week's episode of
Tattooing Sons. If you enjoyed it, we'd love for you
to follow us on social media. You can just pretty
much search Tattooing Suns Sons on anything you'll find us.
Make sure you subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts

(01:17:15):
or Spotify or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
We've got a substack weekly newsletter that comes out for sure.
We're trying to keep the additional updates on there as
we have time. We're traveling a lot, ladies haven't had
a chance to update it, but it's some great content there.
And until the next time, May the Force be with you,

(01:17:36):
and remember the stories that we shared today actually inspired
the next generation of Star Wars fans.

Speaker 1 (01:17:46):
Thank you for listening to Tatooine Suns, a Star Wars podcast.
Please subscribe and follow Tatooine Suns on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube,
or your favorite podcast app. Tattooine Suns regularly publishers thoughtful
articles intended to provoke conversation about the larger themes in
Star Wars. Go to Tattooinsuns dot com to explore further,

(01:18:08):
and May the Force be with you always.

Speaker 4 (01:18:11):
This podcast, website, and social media accounts are not endorsed
by the Walt Disney Company or Lucasfilm Limited, and is
intended for entertainment purposes only.

Speaker 3 (01:18:17):
Star Wars, all names and sounds, and any other Star
Wars related items and properties are trademarks of Lucasfilm Limited
and its affiliates.

Speaker 2 (01:18:22):
All original contents of this podcast in website is the
intellectual property of Tattooing Sons, unless otherwise indicated.

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