- Valentine’s Day is around the corner, which is a prime time for ‘romance scams.’ I’m joined by Dan Munson, Director on the Global Fraud Investigation Team at Visa, on what to look out for
- Speaking of cybersecurity, we’ll also have on the show Steve Grobman, McAfee’s Chief Technology Officer, who shares info about the company’s latest report, the “Scamiverse,” and what you need to know to avoid falling victim to these relentless cybercriminals
- Thank you to Visa and SanDisk for your partnership on Tech It Out
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Do you ever feel overwhelmed by the ever changing world
of technology?
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Can check it out?
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Can help make some sense of it all, breaking down
geeksbeak into street speak. Technology columnist, author, and TV personality
Mark Saltzman covers consumer technology each week for every listener.
Mark tackles the latest news, reviews, and how toos to
help you understand what's hot, what's not and why.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Hey everyone, welcome to teck it Out. It's episode three
seventy nine for the beginning of February. Big week in
the tech world last week, mostly because of the Deep
Seek AI story. If you've been following that, it launched
by a Chinese company that turned US stocks upside down,
especially companies tied to AI, like Nvidia, what is said
(00:47):
to be the world's most valuable company three trillion dollars,
well a little less because it lost almost six hundred
billion wiped off its market value in a single day
early last week week ouch, but has rebounded a little
once issues were unveiled tied to Deep Seek. So if
you're not familiar with this is it's a generative AI platform.
(01:10):
So it's like chat, GPT or Google Gemini where you
type in a prompt like a question, or you give
it a command like you know, tell me what to
do in Barcelona for three days on a limited budget
kind of thing, or write a business proposal about this?
How do I respond to an email like this? So,
just like other gen Ai platforms, it's meant to be
conversational and help you personally and professionally.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
You can write code and much more.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
The reason why a lot of the US tech stocks
were hit is because deep Seek can be used for
a fraction of the price compared to those other platforms
by enterprise companies, big companies. It's still free for folks
like you and me who just wants to download it
to your iPhone or and Freud device, but it cost
a fraction to make and is considerably less to use
(01:55):
on a world stage, so that can seriously make an
impact on other big players, and it seems to work
about as well. I've put it through the ringer of
this last week, but it looks like some of the
damage done to tech stocks on this side of the pond,
it's rebounded a bit because Deep Seek seems to be
a privacy concern on a few levels.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
For one, as you.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
Likely know, any Chinese based company must hand over data
to their government should they be asked to do so.
So that's not going to sit well for many knowing
that your information, especially if you're asking questions or typing
in information about yourself or your company, is in this
platform deep seek what is being done with that data?
You'll never know right So that's an issue right away,
(02:39):
could be a national security issue. The second problem is
also tied to privacy. Can others see your information? Well,
the answer seems to be yes. There was a breach
or more than one breach this past week alone, perhaps
no coincidence where millions of prompts again that's what you
type in when you ask a question or give it
a command was revealed on these breaches. So people's names
(03:01):
and their questions and all that their information. So not
a good start for this company, even though it's promising,
and hey, I'm all for competition, but we're going to
see how the dust settles this coming week. Anyhow, speaking
of privacy and security, we have a great show planned
for you today with Valentine's Day coming up, It's a
timely chat to look at romance scams that tend to
(03:22):
bubble up, especially this time of year, and so Visa
will join us off the top of the show to
chat about staying safe, cyber safe, what to look out
for with these scams and how to protect yourself and
speaking of cyber safety after Visa, also on the show
this week, we're going to catch up with McAfee, one
of the biggest names in this space, to talk about
the findings from a new report that they commissioned called
(03:43):
the Scam Averse and what you need to know about that.
And so we'll focus on staying protected digitally in twenty
twenty five on this week's Tech It Out. But as
you know, if you are a longtime listener of this program,
it's all in a language you can understand. I break
down geeks speak into street speak and make sure that
my guests.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Do so as well.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
So let's officially kick off a fresh Tech it Out
episode with our first interview. Valentine's Day is coming soon,
of course, so it's an ideal time to discuss the
threat of romance scams.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
They happen all.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Year round actually, but can especially rear its ugly head
around February fourteenth for the Hallmark holiday, as love might
be on the brain of many. Unfortunately, these cyber criminals
are not looking for a partner, but rather it's an
attempt to part you and your money. Joining us to
explain how romance scams work and how you can fight back.
We've got on the line, Dan Munson. He's director on
(04:35):
the Global Fraud Investigation Team at Visa, a company that
has invested billions into fighting fraud over the years.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Welcome to the show, Dan, for the first time. Good
to chat with you.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
Yeah, thanks, Mark, it's great to be here.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
So why don't we jump right in, Dan, I want
to be respectful of your time. What are romance scams exactly?
I hinted at them off the top, And where do
they come from?
Speaker 5 (04:55):
Yeah, it's a great question, Mark, and it's actually more
complex than it would seem. They can be varied in
a lot of ways, but generally a scammer is engaging
with a victim and essentially they're trying to initiate a
romantic relationship with that victim. As as far as where
they're coming from, you know, now that we kind of
operate in this online world, it really comes from anywhere.
(05:16):
So I wouldn't say we really see a heavy nexus
in any one location or geography or anything like that
it's really it's all online. These actors are spread out
and typically they're gonna engage through that online environment, so
things like you know, chat rooms, forums, dating websites, and
really what ends up happening is they initiate you know,
these relationships, these conversations, and at the end, their ultimate
(05:39):
goal is to get that victim to transfer funds, to
transfer money, or to make a payment, or you know,
gain some type of monetary value from that victim.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
And just to clarify, Dan mentioned the word actors. Yes,
they are actors because they're acting like they love the person.
But when you say actors, you are likely referring to
bad actor. It's a synonym for cyber criminals in the
fraud world. So I just want to clarify for our audience.
These are people who aren't who they say they are.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Online, so they are actors in another less that's right.
Speaker 4 (06:11):
That's exactly right. Okay, yeah, threat actors.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
And so you've talked to us about. These will often
come through dating sites or on social media, so it's
not unusual then to get like a direct message.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Usually this is not a public thing.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
If someone posted publicly to my, for example, Facebook page,
it's something private that you would get. Could it also
be text message, email, but phone call, all the above?
Speaker 5 (06:33):
All the above, absolutely, and that's really what makes it
difficult is they're going to try and you know, get
your attention and engage in a conversation however they can.
So it's text, it is your Facebook page, you know that,
there's no there's nothing preventing them from commenting on a
photo and trying to initiate the conversation that way. It's
through dating apps, it's you know, text, phone calls, it
(06:54):
it's all of the above.
Speaker 4 (06:55):
Certainly.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
You actually brought up a good point that if someone
looks at your Facebook profile, they may be able to
discern that you are single, because if you're happily married,
for example, then you're going.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
To shut that down right away.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
If your spider sense doesn't already tell you this is
a scam, someone may or even use AI to determine
whether someone is single or not in order to increase
their chances of duping you.
Speaker 4 (07:18):
Absolutely.
Speaker 5 (07:19):
Yeah, these scammers, these threat actors are very good at
you know, what we call reconnaissance, so really understanding their victim.
These romance scams are very targeted, so they're absolutely looking
at your social media. You know, they're looking at your
online presence and trying to figure out how can I
craft you know, this lure this conversation so that it
(07:39):
really resonates with the victims, and social media online presence
is a very big part of that.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
So with that in mind, what are some of the
red flags for this scam? How are they trying to
lure you into a phony relationship in order to get
money from you.
Speaker 4 (07:53):
Yeah, yeah, it's a great question.
Speaker 5 (07:55):
So, you know, I think the biggest red flag that
we see with romance scams, especially from kind of that
fraud perspective, is the request for money. Right, There's going
to be something within the conversation once they build that relationship,
they're going to ask the victim to send money. A
lot of the time it'll be you know, on the
premise of some tragedy that they've experienced, or they have
a family member that is sick, right, and they've got
(08:18):
a lot of bills that they're responsible for. They're just
trying to help out their sick family members, so you know,
please send me money so I can I can help them.
That's certainly a big red flag within you know, the
romance scams and just kind of the dating environment generally.
So if you're being asked for that type of you know,
funds transfer or some type of money requests, that's certainly
a red flag for So things like you know, scammer
(08:42):
is saying they're in a distant location and they can't
meet up physically, right, so that kind of hesitation to
meet up in the real world offline, you know, face
to face, or if that relationship is very fast moving
and you're just noticing that they're inniche, eating conversation more
aggressively and it just moves faster than what you would
anticipate for you know, a legitimate relationship. Other things like
(09:04):
you know, avoidance of video calls, or if there's a
pressure to commit to them within the relationship. You know,
even requests if you meet them on one dating platform
and they're requesting you to move to another dating platform
or to another kind of chat mechanism, that can be
a red flag as well.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
Those are all great red flags to look out for,
makes sense. I know one listener of this radio show
wrote me a few months ago to say that they
fell for one of these romance scams, and it was
someone who said they lived in another country and the
scam was to send them money to.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Buy a plane ticket to see them, and she did.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
She said to me, I was going to say, look,
let me buy you the ticket, but he was insistent
that sending him the money was better and he would
be able to get a better rate and all that,
and then of course your ghosted after that. And speaking
of which, I don't know if you have stats at
VISA on how prevalent romance scams are, but there's probably
a good swath of victims who don't report it because
(10:01):
they're embarrassed that they fell forward.
Speaker 5 (10:03):
Yeah, we do our best to collect that type of
data and those metrics. Internally, you know, we certainly have
less visibility than say McAfee or some of the other
folks I think you're talking to you who have more
kind of that infrastructure visibility. You know, we're certainly confined
to kind of the transaction side within VISA for most
most of this.
Speaker 3 (10:20):
With that in mind, how are romance scams different from
the other types of fraud that VISA is seeing.
Speaker 5 (10:25):
Yeah, you know, they're similar in a lot of ways,
especially when in that case you brought up a really
good one. The scammers saying hey, buy me a ticket,
buy me a ticket, or transfer the funds or whatever
it is. Sometimes they'll prompt that over, you know, a
credit or debit payment right or they'll say, hey, they've
got some infrastructure set up that they can actually take
those payments themselves. And we see that from a Visa
(10:47):
perspective where it looks very kind of typical fraud on
the transaction side, and especially as we're moving more into
kind of the peer to peer and money movement, which
which Visa plays a significant role, and we see more
of that activity as well, and that's you know, a
lot of that is playing out in the scam space.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
But how are romance scams different than other kinds of scams.
I'm going to have our guest answer that when we return.
You are listening to tech it Out. We've got on
the line Visa's Dan Munson, director on the Global Fraud
Investigation Team, So stick with us. A lot more tech
it Out coming right up after this short break.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Listen to check it Out whenever you want to find
the check it Out podcast, did I to or wherever
you get your podcasts.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
Welcome back to tech it Out. We are chatting with
Dan Mudson. He's director on the Global Fraud Investigation team
at Visa, again a company that has invested I think
it's north of ten billion dollars into fighting fraud over
the past few years. Before the breakdown, you were about
to explain what separates romance scams from others. I mean,
if the end goal is the same to part you
(12:03):
and your money, how are these really any different?
Speaker 2 (12:06):
So please continue your thought.
Speaker 4 (12:08):
Great question.
Speaker 5 (12:08):
You know, the difference with romance scams really is how
targeted they are. I would say that's a key differentiator
is they're going to do their reconnaissance and do their
homework on the victims, and you know, they're going to
get a very compelling narrative in front of those victims.
They're going to know, you know where you live, They're
going to know what your interests are. They're gonna, you know,
know your preferences about what you're looking for in a
(12:30):
partner and that kind of thing. So it is very
targeted and much more targeted than say someone trying to
steal your credit card or you know, pickpocket you, or
put a skimmer on a gas pump. Ratm right, That's
that's kind of just capturing whoever stumbles upon that, whereas
the romance scams are very targeted against their victims and.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
Love is blind, So unfortunately people fall for this during
the courting process, you know, they're enamored by the person.
So what are some of the ways, then, dan people
can be sure that they're speaking with who they think
they are on dating apps or across social media sites.
I guess it's the opposite of the red flags, like
if they're willing to put their face out there, they
don't ask you for money.
Speaker 4 (13:09):
Yeah, absolutely, it is difficult.
Speaker 5 (13:11):
You know, it is one of those things where you're
going to have to put in the work to make
sure you know who you're talking to.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
There.
Speaker 5 (13:17):
There are some things that individuals can do, you know,
do the due diligence and do that research, and these
scammers are going to conduct that type of reconnaissance on you.
We should really be doing the same thing when we're
e gauging in these online relationships. So look at social media.
Look at things like inconsistencies with what this person is
telling you, you know, in your kind of romantic conversations
(13:40):
compared to what they're posting publicly on social media, or
you know, do they have a website, you know, for
their professional brand or anything like that, so you know,
make sure you're kind of cross referencing what you're being
told in the platform, and make sure you can find
that type of social media presence and online presence and
if you can't, that and of itself can be a
red flag, right, And have those conversations with the individual
(14:02):
that you're engaging with. Don't be afraid of asking those questions.
Speaker 4 (14:06):
You know.
Speaker 5 (14:06):
One of the best things I think people can do
is be open about it with your friends and family.
Speaker 4 (14:10):
If you're engaging in, you.
Speaker 5 (14:12):
Know, a relationship that has some of these red flags
and you just need a second opinion, go to a
trusted contact, go to a family member or you know,
a loved one, just say, hey, here's here's the situation
I'm dealing with. Is there anything that you find is
suspicious about this? And just having that kind of second
set of eyes, that that objective perspective here that isn't
wrapped up in the emotions of a new and blossoming
(14:34):
relationship can be really helpful and getting you to you know,
see the risks and see those red flags.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
Great advice before I let you go, Dan, what can
someone do if they think they've been a victim. Earlier,
you were referring to anybody contacted as a victim. But
that's only if you send money, right, I mean, let's
be clear, it's if you shut it down. You're fine
if you don't give any money, as long as you
wake up.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
And realize that it's not legit.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
But let's say you are a victim, you actually do
send someone money and then they're gone.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
What happens next?
Speaker 5 (15:04):
Luckily, there are a lot of resources, so I would say,
first and foremost, if you know this was a funds
transfer or you know, a credit debit payment or anything
like that, contact your bank. Let your bank know. Put
aside any of the hesitation and embarrassment, Like, you know,
I've almost fallen for these scams. I've gotten very close
and these actors are getting very sophisticated, So there shouldn't
(15:24):
be any type of embarrassment, you know, be open about it.
Report this to your bank first. If that doesn't work
and you're kind of at a loss for next steps
from your bank, you can report this to the government.
Speaker 4 (15:37):
So there is the IC three.
Speaker 5 (15:39):
It's called it's the Internet Crime Complete Center IC three
dot gov has resources to specifically for romance scams, where
you can report these scams.
Speaker 4 (15:48):
To the IC three FTC.
Speaker 5 (15:50):
The Federal Trade Commission has reporting mechanisms as well, and
you can actually go to report Fraud dot FTC dot
gov and report this to them as well. So there
are there are quite a few different avenues and mechanisms
to report this, which is the good news here.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
And then finally, is there anything else that you want
to make sure our audience knows about romance scams ahead
of Valentine's Day?
Speaker 4 (16:11):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (16:12):
I think just keeping in mind, you know, all of
these red flags and best practices we've talked about here
you mentioned earlier. Mark Valentine's Day is a good lure, right.
These actors are very opportunistic and they capitalize on, you know,
the emotions. If you're single and you're looking for a partner,
Valentine's Day can feel lonely. It's a very good opportunity
for actors to get a hold of you and convince
(16:33):
you that you know they're what you're looking for, and
they know that they're going to capitalize on it. So
I would say, you know, just just be especially vigilant
during the Valentine's period and really any holiday period. These
actors are opportunistic and they're going to capitalize on, you know,
the emotions around these holidays.
Speaker 4 (16:51):
Great.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
And then finally, the website I usually plug when I'm
interviewing someone from Visa about staying cyber aware and cyber
safe is Visa dot com slash security. Is that still
the best URL you'd recommend for people to check out
tips and articles and blog posts and all that.
Speaker 4 (17:08):
Yes, absolutely, that is a great one.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
Okay, Visa dot com slash Security. Our guest has been
Dan Mudson, director on the Global fraud Investigation team at
the company. Thank you so much for carving out the
time to chat, especially ahead of Valentine's Day. Very useful information.
Thanks again, Dan. Looking forward to having on the show
another time.
Speaker 5 (17:25):
Of course, Mark, thanks so much for the opportunity. Great
to talk with you and hope everyone stays safe out there.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
Hey for full transparency and want to acknowledge Visa is
an official partner on tech it Out. They have been
for the last couple of years. They're awesome to work
with and little did I know that they had so
much to say about topics unrelated to shopping. Obviously, it
ties in with transactions and scams and fraud and all that.
So a shout out to them and thank you. Want
it to be fully transparent with y'all. And speaking of cybersecurity,
(17:52):
don't forget. We're going to continue that thread. When we
return on tech it Out, we're going to catch up
with McAfee. We're going to talk about their report called
the Scam Averse. Who's most at risk? How much are
we losing? What are we doing wrong? How is AI
impacting scams? And so a lot more tech it Out
to get to when we return after this shortbreak, we'll
(18:13):
be right back.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
I want to follow Mark Google Mark with a Z
and Saltzman with a Z breaking down geeks peak into
street speak. This is check it Out to check it
Out with technology columnist, author, and TV personality Mark Saltzman.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
Welcome back everyone, you're listening to tech it Out. McAfee
has just published results of its latest report dubbed the
Scam Averse about all the ways scammers are trying to
get at you and your wallet in twenty twenty five,
and how AI is helping the cyber criminals up their game.
Joining me to chat about this topic and what you
need to know to fight back is Steve Grobeman, chief
(19:00):
technical officer at McAfee. Welcome back to the show, Steve.
Good to talk to you again. Hey, thanks Mark, it's
great to be here.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Yeah, and great job this morning.
Speaker 3 (19:08):
By the way, you fielded questions from journalists around the world.
If I'm not mistaken on that team's call tied to
the scam averse, which we're going to chat about, and
you did a really good job, perfect for this show
breaking down GeekSpeak into street speak, because cybersecurity can make
your head spin, and the irony is how do we
protect ourselves if we don't understand all the jargon.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
But you did a really good job making.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
Sense of it before we talk about the scamma verse,
which is a great name. By the way, tell us
a bit about McAfee. You guys have been a leading
cybersecurity software company for decades now.
Speaker 6 (19:37):
Yeah, thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 7 (19:39):
And McAfee is now one hundred percent focused on protecting
the digital lives of consumers. So while McAfee has been
around for decades, we're constantly evolving. We're constantly focused on
developing new technology to protect consumers against the threats that
are most prevalent. So while a lot of people think
of McFee as as an antivirus company, we still do
(20:02):
a great job at that or actually number one in
the industry from both an efficacy and performance perspective. But
we're also putting a lot of our research and development
into some of the newer threat a lot of what
we're going to talk about today, which is all about
how do we defend consumers from the scams that are
becoming so prevalent in our environment.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
So it's not just about software as I'm looking at
my McAfee Ultimate Family Window right now, but also in
education and arming consumers and businesses and other organizations with
information to fight back as well. It's not always software,
because I guess they call it social engineering, where we
could be tricked into thinking that someone who is emailing us,
(20:44):
texting us, or calling us or dming us on social
media is the real deal, when in fact they're not.
They're scammers. But that can often get past software. So
I'm glad that your organization has broadened your mo if
you will to protect.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Consumers at all levels.
Speaker 3 (20:59):
And I think that's a good segue into the scam
Averse report that you commissioned. Tell us what that means
exactly what did you set out to find?
Speaker 7 (21:06):
What we really wanted to understand with the next level
of quantitative detail is how are consumers at the end
level getting impacted and exposed to scams. McFee is constantly
studying the state of the art for what scams we
can see in our labs. You know, we have everything
(21:29):
from what we call honeypot accounts where we're working to
try to make sure that scams that are occurring in
the wild are things that we're able to get a
hold of see analyze take apart. You know, we have
telemetry from our various products that give us an indication
of how prevalent certain things that.
Speaker 6 (21:50):
We're aware of are.
Speaker 7 (21:52):
But what we really wanted to do is have a
study that talked to a representative set of CAN consumers
and basically ask them the question how are they getting
impacted by scams? And what we found was somewhat alarming,
but unfortunately not that surprising. You know, we found that
(22:13):
about two thirds of consumers have either been involved in
falling victim for a scam or knowing someone personally that
has been and in those cases, more than half the
time it is for really a substantial amount of money,
you know, in the order of one thousand dollars or more.
Speaker 5 (22:35):
Wow.
Speaker 7 (22:36):
We also found that consumers really need to be on
their guard continuously. The average number of scams that consumers
are exposed to in a day is twelve. So if
you think about, you know, bad things flying at you
from all angles, really around the clock when you're living
your digital life, whether it's coming from your email or
(22:58):
from your text messages, or from your social engagement or
now having to be aware that when you're watching video
or looking at images online that a lot of that
content can be created.
Speaker 6 (23:11):
With AI what we call a deep fake.
Speaker 7 (23:14):
You need to be really aware that some of this
clearly can be for good purposes, but a lot of
it is trying to help create an environment that is
what we call a scam and you know, you're now
living in the scam averse, as the report was called.
And what we're doing is we're working to both educate
(23:35):
consumers on what to look for, how to make sure
they're not falling victim to scams, but also arming them
with the next generation of technology. You know, I'll definitely
chat in today's discussion a bit about some of the
great things that we're building to help consumers really identify
when they're being exposed to a scam and have the
(23:57):
right tools.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
All right, So yeah, before we talk about how to
fight back, which definitely is needed here, that would be
remiss not to talk about that, but tell us a
bit more, please, about AI helping these scammers. These deep
fake videos, they look legit and they're getting increasingly realistic.
You were talking this morning, for example, during your press event.
(24:19):
One batch of deep fake videos or photos are over
the top.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Ridiculous, so you already know that they're not real.
Speaker 3 (24:27):
Like I think your example was Trump and Biden riding
unicorns and fighting with it like it was something silly
because it was so ridiculous that you know it's not real.
But obviously that's just to show what the technology can do.
It's the more subtle or more realistic videos that could
convince someone that it's someone.
Speaker 6 (24:45):
That is not You're spot on.
Speaker 7 (24:47):
So if we think about generative AI for creating things
like images or video, a lot of it is not malicious.
So some of it is used for parody, some of
that is used for creativity. There's a whole segment that
is generating artificial intelligence based art.
Speaker 6 (25:07):
All of that's fine.
Speaker 7 (25:09):
The challenge becomes when generative AI is being used to
create something that looks indiscernible from reality and the end
consumer is not able to tell is it real or fake?
And the paradox that we're in is it's getting harder
(25:29):
and harder and i'd say almost impossible for consumers to
be able to tell the difference between a real image
and an AI generated image, while at the same time
it's becoming easier and easier for bad actors to create
both images and video that are more and more real,
(25:50):
So easier for the bad guys, harder for all the
good consumers of the.
Speaker 6 (25:55):
World to defend themselves.
Speaker 7 (25:57):
And that's where we're focused on trying to educate as
well as provide the best technology.
Speaker 6 (26:04):
But you know your spot on what a.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
Thrill to have Steve Grobman CTO, chief Technical Officer of McAfee.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
On Tech it Out.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
When we return, he's going to continue his examples of
AI being used, so stay tuned for that.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
We'll be right back breaking down geek speak into street speak.
Check it Out hosted by Mark Saltzman.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Welcome back to check it Out.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
We are chatting with Steve Grobman, CTO at McAfee. We're
learning all about its scam averse findings, what it is,
how people are falling for scams. We've also discussed differences
in demographics and how AI is aiding these scammers. Before
the break, Steve, you were giving us an example of
something that most people would know is a something ridiculous
(27:02):
and how when it's more subtle, obviously it's harder to detect,
So please elaborate on that.
Speaker 7 (27:07):
Yeah, I think the example I gave this morning was,
you know, you have two presidents writing unicycles uticycle.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
I said unicorns.
Speaker 7 (27:16):
Yeah, unicorns would would probably be be just just as
good as as well. But you know, if you saw
that image, your natural instinct would be it's not real.
Whereas if you had an image of one of those
politicians talking to a world leader like that might be
(27:37):
something that would be very believable. And if context around
it was set up to make a point, you know,
a normal consumer wouldn't be able to tell the difference
did that really happen or not without doing things like
fact checking.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
And that's where I was going to ask you about
the scam part. If you can give an example, a
real one or a made up one of how a
deep fake video can actually dupe someone into spending money.
Speaker 4 (28:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (28:01):
So, one of the most common scams that we see
with deep fake video is what we call a fake
investment scam. Typically it's a form of crypto scam where
a high profile individual, very often it's a tech legend
of Bill Gates and Elon Musk. Sometimes it's more of
(28:21):
a celebrity, but they're basically giving a pitch that there's
a new technology that is using artificial intelligence or quantum
computing that allows you to invest money with a much
greater rate of return than has ever been available, and
it's only going to be lucrative if you're one of
(28:43):
the first investors. So the point being there creating this
sense of urgency that if you want to hit it big,
you have to depart with your money right now. They'll
basically set up all the mechanics of how to convert
real money into cryptocurrency and then move it in to
what essentially is a fraudulent investment platform.
Speaker 6 (29:04):
The victims of.
Speaker 7 (29:05):
These scams never get their money back. There's some nuance
and sometimes some creativity. We've even seen cases where sometimes
they'll let a victim take a little bit of money
out in order to gain additional credibility that it's not
a scam, to encourage them to put much more in,
(29:26):
and that's when they close the trap door and basically vanished.
Is one example. There are many others. We see Generative
AI being used in a lot of romance scams. You
can think of a romance scam as a victim believes
that they're involved in a close relationship with somebody online.
Generative AI is often used to both create images that
(29:51):
can be sent from the scammer to the victim.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
Yeah, we talked with Visa just before you, Steve about
romance scams and how AI was making the problem even worse.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
So, yeah, thank you for that.
Speaker 7 (30:03):
That was one of the things that we studied in
this analysis. You know, we found that the younger demographic
was able to very quickly identify that a scam was
in progress, typically under thirty minutes, whereas the fifty five
and older demographic would a lot of times not know
(30:25):
they'd been scammed until there was some secondary indicator, like
they got a credit card bill, they got a bank statement,
and they were able to put the pieces together that
they they've actually been taken advantage of and fun have
been depleted. You know, we're really trying to understand not
(30:45):
only the mechanics of how these scams occur, but the
aftermath to really educate folks to be hyper aware and
if they're suspicious of something, we've tried to give guidance.
Speaker 3 (30:58):
And before we talked back, and you've already hinted at
some things we can do, Steve, I'm sure AI is
more than just deep fakes, right, isn't artificial intelligence also
helping scammers better write or target like highly personalized attacks
on people by you know, scrubbing their social media profile
and knowing certain things about them like AI is also
(31:18):
helping in that respect.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Unfortunately, correct one.
Speaker 7 (31:21):
Hundred percent, and a few key points on that some
of the advice that consumers might have heard a few
years ago no longer applies. You might have heard that
a good way to detect a scam is if the
grammar's not right or if they see spelling errors. The
scammers don't have grammar and spelling errors anymore. Everybody is
(31:42):
using large language models generative AI to write their scams,
and to your personalization point, it's not only about the
pieces that consumers have intentionally put in the public domain.
There's been a lot of data breaches over the last
year or two, which provides tremendous fuel for creating personalized
(32:04):
scams to individuals. So if you think about the data
that's in these data breaches, it's things such as who
are your family members, where did you previously work, where
do you currently work, where do you live, and all
of that can be crafted into a note that adds credibility.
You can think of you used to work for a
(32:26):
company and you get an email that says, you know, hey,
you might remember me. I'm Bob, we work together at
XYZ company. I hear that you're going to be in town.
And you know, even if you don't remember that person,
like the fact that there's so much credible information that
is accurate, it adds authenticity to the email and you
(32:48):
start to trust it. And if they put something like
I'm looking for a job and you know, check out
my profile. When we got together last I took some
amazing pictures. Things that can kind of take you into
the next phase of the scam.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Yeah, great point and scary times.
Speaker 3 (33:03):
Indeed, a little bit more with Steve Groepman from McAfee
chief technical Officer when we return on tech it out.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
Follow Mark Saltzman on Facebook, on Twitter, on Instagram. Listen
to check it out whenever you want.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
A couple of minutes left with Steve Grobman, CTO of
McAfee to talk to us about its latest report, the
scam Averse. You've already given us, Steve some great ideas
to fight back, but let's dive a little bit deeper
if we can. Before I let you go, what can
regular consumers do? I'm sure cybersecurity tools like what McAfee
provides helps.
Speaker 7 (33:46):
So there's three things that are important for consumers to
think about. Number One, if you get something that you
want to either act on or is going to change
the way you think about the world, fact check it.
You know, there's so much disinformation, especially on social media
(34:08):
platforms as moderation policies are evolving, that if you see
something inflammatory, it's really important before you like it, forward it,
repost it, just make sure it's real. With the LA
wildfires horrific. What's been going on the last couple of weeks.
We saw social media posts that showed things like the
(34:32):
Los Angeles Hollywood Hills with the Hollywood sign in flames
and in some of these posts they got over a
million views, lots of engagement. We analyzed them with our
advanced deepfake detection technology. One hundred percent false. You know, similarly,
if you went out and looked at them from credible
news organizations, one hundred percent fall. So make sure you
(34:54):
fact check number two. Take a step back. If you
get an email, a text, a direct message that's alarming,
recognize that creating a sense of urgency is one of
the key tools that scammers use. So if it looks
like it's a government agency that says there's going to
be a law enforcement action against you, or a bank
(35:16):
that says you know your money has been withdrawn, like,
all of these things are tactics the scammers know will
cause you to act very quickly, and it's important that
you take a step back, breathe, and really look at
all of the information in the communication, and then if
you're still concerned, reach out to the organization through an
(35:40):
independent contact channel. Call the number on the back of
your credit card, go to the direct statement or website
for your bank. Don't click on a link that's in
the communication. If it's a government or law enforcement agency,
look up their contact information directly and contact them. Those
(36:00):
are the key things, and then finally use the latest
and greatest technology to help you stay one step ahead.
Speaker 3 (36:09):
How about technology? How can software help as well? I
know it's not the be all, end all, but how
can McAfee help from a filtering, if you will, or
flagging standpoint?
Speaker 7 (36:19):
So we're introducing some brand new technology that's directly focused
on this problem of combating scams, helping users detect things
that they can't really detect easily with their own eyes
and ears.
Speaker 6 (36:35):
So deep fakes that we've talked a lot about.
Speaker 7 (36:38):
We introduced a technology last year called deep Fake Detector
that helps flag AI generated videos for users. We're expanding
this to work for all of our customers on a
much wider variety of hardware. Initially, it was only possible
to run this technology on AI IPCs with specialized AI hardware.
(37:03):
We're now expanding that to be able to have a
much broader scope. We're also going to be launching for
our customers technology that the text scams in both text
and email. We know that text and email remains one
of the primary communication channels that the scammers use and
our tech scam detection will help detect text messages that
(37:28):
are really scams. And similarly, our email scam detection will
help customers detect scams when they come through email.
Speaker 3 (37:36):
All right, and where can we learn more about that, Steve?
As we wrap up what's the best website?
Speaker 7 (37:40):
So we've actually set up a dedicated site that's all
about artificial intelligence, how it can be used to defend users,
but also about how it's being used by bad actors.
It's www dot MacFee dot ai. And if listeners want
to learn more about mcfee's products and all of our
(38:01):
great offerings, it's www dot McFee dot com.
Speaker 3 (38:04):
All right, Steve Grobman, chief technical officer at McAfee. All right,
McAfee dot ai and that's mc afbe. Thanks again, Steve,
always great chatting with you. Thank you for this insightful conversation,
very helpful.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
Thank you again.
Speaker 3 (38:19):
Thanks so much, Mark, and thank you for tuning in
to the program this week. It was a very cybersecurity
focused one, first with Visa on romance scams and then
the scam Averse with McAfee. On a related note, don't
forget to properly back up your important files on a
regular basis, just in case something happens to your PC.
I always trust sand Disk and Western Digital external drives
(38:41):
that can hold massive amounts of data without breaking the bank.
Very trustworthy. Don't have to pay for a monthly cloud
subscription either westerndigital dot com has more or SanDisk dot com.
Have a great rest of your day. Everyone, a fantastic
week ahead and I look forward to catching up with
you next weekend for another brand new episode of Tack
it Out. Take care of everyone, Bye bye for now.
Do you ever feel overwhelmed by the ever changing world
of technology?
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Can check it out?
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Can help make some sense of it all, breaking down
geeksbeak into street speak. Technology columnist, author, and TV personality
Mark Saltzman covers consumer technology each week for every listener.
Mark tackles the latest news, reviews, and how toos to
help you understand what's hot, what's not and why.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Hey everyone, welcome to teck it Out. It's episode three
seventy nine for the beginning of February. Big week in
the tech world last week, mostly because of the Deep
Seek AI story. If you've been following that, it launched
by a Chinese company that turned US stocks upside down,
especially companies tied to AI, like Nvidia, what is said
(00:47):
to be the world's most valuable company three trillion dollars,
well a little less because it lost almost six hundred
billion wiped off its market value in a single day
early last week week ouch, but has rebounded a little
once issues were unveiled tied to Deep Seek. So if
you're not familiar with this is it's a generative AI platform.
(01:10):
So it's like chat, GPT or Google Gemini where you
type in a prompt like a question, or you give
it a command like you know, tell me what to
do in Barcelona for three days on a limited budget
kind of thing, or write a business proposal about this?
How do I respond to an email like this? So,
just like other gen Ai platforms, it's meant to be
conversational and help you personally and professionally.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
You can write code and much more.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
The reason why a lot of the US tech stocks
were hit is because deep Seek can be used for
a fraction of the price compared to those other platforms
by enterprise companies, big companies. It's still free for folks
like you and me who just wants to download it
to your iPhone or and Freud device, but it cost
a fraction to make and is considerably less to use
(01:55):
on a world stage, so that can seriously make an
impact on other big players, and it seems to work
about as well. I've put it through the ringer of
this last week, but it looks like some of the
damage done to tech stocks on this side of the pond,
it's rebounded a bit because Deep Seek seems to be
a privacy concern on a few levels.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
For one, as you.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
Likely know, any Chinese based company must hand over data
to their government should they be asked to do so.
So that's not going to sit well for many knowing
that your information, especially if you're asking questions or typing
in information about yourself or your company, is in this
platform deep seek what is being done with that data?
You'll never know right So that's an issue right away,
(02:39):
could be a national security issue. The second problem is
also tied to privacy. Can others see your information? Well,
the answer seems to be yes. There was a breach
or more than one breach this past week alone, perhaps
no coincidence where millions of prompts again that's what you
type in when you ask a question or give it
a command was revealed on these breaches. So people's names
(03:01):
and their questions and all that their information. So not
a good start for this company, even though it's promising,
and hey, I'm all for competition, but we're going to
see how the dust settles this coming week. Anyhow, speaking
of privacy and security, we have a great show planned
for you today with Valentine's Day coming up, It's a
timely chat to look at romance scams that tend to
(03:22):
bubble up, especially this time of year, and so Visa
will join us off the top of the show to
chat about staying safe, cyber safe, what to look out
for with these scams and how to protect yourself and
speaking of cyber safety after Visa, also on the show
this week, we're going to catch up with McAfee, one
of the biggest names in this space, to talk about
the findings from a new report that they commissioned called
(03:43):
the Scam Averse and what you need to know about that.
And so we'll focus on staying protected digitally in twenty
twenty five on this week's Tech It Out. But as
you know, if you are a longtime listener of this program,
it's all in a language you can understand. I break
down geeks speak into street speak and make sure that
my guests.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Do so as well.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
So let's officially kick off a fresh Tech it Out
episode with our first interview. Valentine's Day is coming soon,
of course, so it's an ideal time to discuss the
threat of romance scams.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
They happen all.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Year round actually, but can especially rear its ugly head
around February fourteenth for the Hallmark holiday, as love might
be on the brain of many. Unfortunately, these cyber criminals
are not looking for a partner, but rather it's an
attempt to part you and your money. Joining us to
explain how romance scams work and how you can fight back.
We've got on the line, Dan Munson. He's director on
(04:35):
the Global Fraud Investigation Team at Visa, a company that
has invested billions into fighting fraud over the years.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Welcome to the show, Dan, for the first time. Good
to chat with you.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
Yeah, thanks, Mark, it's great to be here.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
So why don't we jump right in, Dan, I want
to be respectful of your time. What are romance scams exactly?
I hinted at them off the top, And where do
they come from?
Speaker 5 (04:55):
Yeah, it's a great question, Mark, and it's actually more
complex than it would seem. They can be varied in
a lot of ways, but generally a scammer is engaging
with a victim and essentially they're trying to initiate a
romantic relationship with that victim. As as far as where
they're coming from, you know, now that we kind of
operate in this online world, it really comes from anywhere.
(05:16):
So I wouldn't say we really see a heavy nexus
in any one location or geography or anything like that
it's really it's all online. These actors are spread out
and typically they're gonna engage through that online environment, so
things like you know, chat rooms, forums, dating websites, and
really what ends up happening is they initiate you know,
these relationships, these conversations, and at the end, their ultimate
(05:39):
goal is to get that victim to transfer funds, to
transfer money, or to make a payment, or you know,
gain some type of monetary value from that victim.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
And just to clarify, Dan mentioned the word actors. Yes,
they are actors because they're acting like they love the person.
But when you say actors, you are likely referring to
bad actor. It's a synonym for cyber criminals in the
fraud world. So I just want to clarify for our audience.
These are people who aren't who they say they are.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Online, so they are actors in another less that's right.
Speaker 4 (06:11):
That's exactly right. Okay, yeah, threat actors.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
And so you've talked to us about. These will often
come through dating sites or on social media, so it's
not unusual then to get like a direct message.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Usually this is not a public thing.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
If someone posted publicly to my, for example, Facebook page,
it's something private that you would get. Could it also
be text message, email, but phone call, all the above?
Speaker 5 (06:33):
All the above, absolutely, and that's really what makes it
difficult is they're going to try and you know, get
your attention and engage in a conversation however they can.
So it's text, it is your Facebook page, you know that,
there's no there's nothing preventing them from commenting on a
photo and trying to initiate the conversation that way. It's
through dating apps, it's you know, text, phone calls, it
(06:54):
it's all of the above.
Speaker 4 (06:55):
Certainly.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
You actually brought up a good point that if someone
looks at your Facebook profile, they may be able to
discern that you are single, because if you're happily married,
for example, then you're going.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
To shut that down right away.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
If your spider sense doesn't already tell you this is
a scam, someone may or even use AI to determine
whether someone is single or not in order to increase
their chances of duping you.
Speaker 4 (07:18):
Absolutely.
Speaker 5 (07:19):
Yeah, these scammers, these threat actors are very good at
you know, what we call reconnaissance, so really understanding their victim.
These romance scams are very targeted, so they're absolutely looking
at your social media. You know, they're looking at your
online presence and trying to figure out how can I
craft you know, this lure this conversation so that it
(07:39):
really resonates with the victims, and social media online presence
is a very big part of that.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
So with that in mind, what are some of the
red flags for this scam? How are they trying to
lure you into a phony relationship in order to get
money from you.
Speaker 4 (07:53):
Yeah, yeah, it's a great question.
Speaker 5 (07:55):
So, you know, I think the biggest red flag that
we see with romance scams, especially from kind of that
fraud perspective, is the request for money. Right, There's going
to be something within the conversation once they build that relationship,
they're going to ask the victim to send money. A
lot of the time it'll be you know, on the
premise of some tragedy that they've experienced, or they have
a family member that is sick, right, and they've got
(08:18):
a lot of bills that they're responsible for. They're just
trying to help out their sick family members, so you know,
please send me money so I can I can help them.
That's certainly a big red flag within you know, the
romance scams and just kind of the dating environment generally.
So if you're being asked for that type of you know,
funds transfer or some type of money requests, that's certainly
a red flag for So things like you know, scammer
(08:42):
is saying they're in a distant location and they can't
meet up physically, right, so that kind of hesitation to
meet up in the real world offline, you know, face
to face, or if that relationship is very fast moving
and you're just noticing that they're inniche, eating conversation more
aggressively and it just moves faster than what you would
anticipate for you know, a legitimate relationship. Other things like
(09:04):
you know, avoidance of video calls, or if there's a
pressure to commit to them within the relationship. You know,
even requests if you meet them on one dating platform
and they're requesting you to move to another dating platform
or to another kind of chat mechanism, that can be
a red flag as well.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
Those are all great red flags to look out for,
makes sense. I know one listener of this radio show
wrote me a few months ago to say that they
fell for one of these romance scams, and it was
someone who said they lived in another country and the
scam was to send them money to.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Buy a plane ticket to see them, and she did.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
She said to me, I was going to say, look,
let me buy you the ticket, but he was insistent
that sending him the money was better and he would
be able to get a better rate and all that,
and then of course your ghosted after that. And speaking
of which, I don't know if you have stats at
VISA on how prevalent romance scams are, but there's probably
a good swath of victims who don't report it because
(10:01):
they're embarrassed that they fell forward.
Speaker 5 (10:03):
Yeah, we do our best to collect that type of
data and those metrics. Internally, you know, we certainly have
less visibility than say McAfee or some of the other
folks I think you're talking to you who have more
kind of that infrastructure visibility. You know, we're certainly confined
to kind of the transaction side within VISA for most
most of this.
Speaker 3 (10:20):
With that in mind, how are romance scams different from
the other types of fraud that VISA is seeing.
Speaker 5 (10:25):
Yeah, you know, they're similar in a lot of ways,
especially when in that case you brought up a really
good one. The scammers saying hey, buy me a ticket,
buy me a ticket, or transfer the funds or whatever
it is. Sometimes they'll prompt that over, you know, a
credit or debit payment right or they'll say, hey, they've
got some infrastructure set up that they can actually take
those payments themselves. And we see that from a Visa
(10:47):
perspective where it looks very kind of typical fraud on
the transaction side, and especially as we're moving more into
kind of the peer to peer and money movement, which
which Visa plays a significant role, and we see more
of that activity as well, and that's you know, a
lot of that is playing out in the scam space.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
But how are romance scams different than other kinds of scams.
I'm going to have our guest answer that when we return.
You are listening to tech it Out. We've got on
the line Visa's Dan Munson, director on the Global Fraud
Investigation Team, So stick with us. A lot more tech
it Out coming right up after this short break.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Listen to check it Out whenever you want to find
the check it Out podcast, did I to or wherever
you get your podcasts.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
Welcome back to tech it Out. We are chatting with
Dan Mudson. He's director on the Global Fraud Investigation team
at Visa, again a company that has invested I think
it's north of ten billion dollars into fighting fraud over
the past few years. Before the breakdown, you were about
to explain what separates romance scams from others. I mean,
if the end goal is the same to part you
(12:03):
and your money, how are these really any different?
Speaker 2 (12:06):
So please continue your thought.
Speaker 4 (12:08):
Great question.
Speaker 5 (12:08):
You know, the difference with romance scams really is how
targeted they are. I would say that's a key differentiator
is they're going to do their reconnaissance and do their
homework on the victims, and you know, they're going to
get a very compelling narrative in front of those victims.
They're going to know, you know where you live, They're
going to know what your interests are. They're gonna, you know,
know your preferences about what you're looking for in a
(12:30):
partner and that kind of thing. So it is very
targeted and much more targeted than say someone trying to
steal your credit card or you know, pickpocket you, or
put a skimmer on a gas pump. Ratm right, That's
that's kind of just capturing whoever stumbles upon that, whereas
the romance scams are very targeted against their victims and.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
Love is blind, So unfortunately people fall for this during
the courting process, you know, they're enamored by the person.
So what are some of the ways, then, dan people
can be sure that they're speaking with who they think
they are on dating apps or across social media sites.
I guess it's the opposite of the red flags, like
if they're willing to put their face out there, they
don't ask you for money.
Speaker 4 (13:09):
Yeah, absolutely, it is difficult.
Speaker 5 (13:11):
You know, it is one of those things where you're
going to have to put in the work to make
sure you know who you're talking to.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
There.
Speaker 5 (13:17):
There are some things that individuals can do, you know,
do the due diligence and do that research, and these
scammers are going to conduct that type of reconnaissance on you.
We should really be doing the same thing when we're
e gauging in these online relationships. So look at social media.
Look at things like inconsistencies with what this person is
telling you, you know, in your kind of romantic conversations
(13:40):
compared to what they're posting publicly on social media, or
you know, do they have a website, you know, for
their professional brand or anything like that, so you know,
make sure you're kind of cross referencing what you're being
told in the platform, and make sure you can find
that type of social media presence and online presence and
if you can't, that and of itself can be a
red flag, right, And have those conversations with the individual
(14:02):
that you're engaging with. Don't be afraid of asking those questions.
Speaker 4 (14:06):
You know.
Speaker 5 (14:06):
One of the best things I think people can do
is be open about it with your friends and family.
Speaker 4 (14:10):
If you're engaging in, you.
Speaker 5 (14:12):
Know, a relationship that has some of these red flags
and you just need a second opinion, go to a
trusted contact, go to a family member or you know,
a loved one, just say, hey, here's here's the situation
I'm dealing with. Is there anything that you find is
suspicious about this? And just having that kind of second
set of eyes, that that objective perspective here that isn't
wrapped up in the emotions of a new and blossoming
(14:34):
relationship can be really helpful and getting you to you know,
see the risks and see those red flags.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
Great advice before I let you go, Dan, what can
someone do if they think they've been a victim. Earlier,
you were referring to anybody contacted as a victim. But
that's only if you send money, right, I mean, let's
be clear, it's if you shut it down. You're fine
if you don't give any money, as long as you
wake up.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
And realize that it's not legit.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
But let's say you are a victim, you actually do
send someone money and then they're gone.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
What happens next?
Speaker 5 (15:04):
Luckily, there are a lot of resources, so I would say,
first and foremost, if you know this was a funds
transfer or you know, a credit debit payment or anything
like that, contact your bank. Let your bank know. Put
aside any of the hesitation and embarrassment, Like, you know,
I've almost fallen for these scams. I've gotten very close
and these actors are getting very sophisticated, So there shouldn't
(15:24):
be any type of embarrassment, you know, be open about it.
Report this to your bank first. If that doesn't work
and you're kind of at a loss for next steps
from your bank, you can report this to the government.
Speaker 4 (15:37):
So there is the IC three.
Speaker 5 (15:39):
It's called it's the Internet Crime Complete Center IC three
dot gov has resources to specifically for romance scams, where
you can report these scams.
Speaker 4 (15:48):
To the IC three FTC.
Speaker 5 (15:50):
The Federal Trade Commission has reporting mechanisms as well, and
you can actually go to report Fraud dot FTC dot
gov and report this to them as well. So there
are there are quite a few different avenues and mechanisms
to report this, which is the good news here.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
And then finally, is there anything else that you want
to make sure our audience knows about romance scams ahead
of Valentine's Day?
Speaker 4 (16:11):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (16:12):
I think just keeping in mind, you know, all of
these red flags and best practices we've talked about here
you mentioned earlier. Mark Valentine's Day is a good lure, right.
These actors are very opportunistic and they capitalize on, you know,
the emotions. If you're single and you're looking for a partner,
Valentine's Day can feel lonely. It's a very good opportunity
for actors to get a hold of you and convince
(16:33):
you that you know they're what you're looking for, and
they know that they're going to capitalize on it. So
I would say, you know, just just be especially vigilant
during the Valentine's period and really any holiday period. These
actors are opportunistic and they're going to capitalize on, you know,
the emotions around these holidays.
Speaker 4 (16:51):
Great.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
And then finally, the website I usually plug when I'm
interviewing someone from Visa about staying cyber aware and cyber
safe is Visa dot com slash security. Is that still
the best URL you'd recommend for people to check out
tips and articles and blog posts and all that.
Speaker 4 (17:08):
Yes, absolutely, that is a great one.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
Okay, Visa dot com slash Security. Our guest has been
Dan Mudson, director on the Global fraud Investigation team at
the company. Thank you so much for carving out the
time to chat, especially ahead of Valentine's Day. Very useful information.
Thanks again, Dan. Looking forward to having on the show
another time.
Speaker 5 (17:25):
Of course, Mark, thanks so much for the opportunity. Great
to talk with you and hope everyone stays safe out there.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
Hey for full transparency and want to acknowledge Visa is
an official partner on tech it Out. They have been
for the last couple of years. They're awesome to work
with and little did I know that they had so
much to say about topics unrelated to shopping. Obviously, it
ties in with transactions and scams and fraud and all that.
So a shout out to them and thank you. Want
it to be fully transparent with y'all. And speaking of cybersecurity,
(17:52):
don't forget. We're going to continue that thread. When we
return on tech it Out, we're going to catch up
with McAfee. We're going to talk about their report called
the Scam Averse. Who's most at risk? How much are
we losing? What are we doing wrong? How is AI
impacting scams? And so a lot more tech it Out
to get to when we return after this shortbreak, we'll
(18:13):
be right back.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
I want to follow Mark Google Mark with a Z
and Saltzman with a Z breaking down geeks peak into
street speak. This is check it Out to check it
Out with technology columnist, author, and TV personality Mark Saltzman.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
Welcome back everyone, you're listening to tech it Out. McAfee
has just published results of its latest report dubbed the
Scam Averse about all the ways scammers are trying to
get at you and your wallet in twenty twenty five,
and how AI is helping the cyber criminals up their game.
Joining me to chat about this topic and what you
need to know to fight back is Steve Grobeman, chief
(19:00):
technical officer at McAfee. Welcome back to the show, Steve.
Good to talk to you again. Hey, thanks Mark, it's
great to be here.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Yeah, and great job this morning.
Speaker 3 (19:08):
By the way, you fielded questions from journalists around the world.
If I'm not mistaken on that team's call tied to
the scam averse, which we're going to chat about, and
you did a really good job, perfect for this show
breaking down GeekSpeak into street speak, because cybersecurity can make
your head spin, and the irony is how do we
protect ourselves if we don't understand all the jargon.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
But you did a really good job making.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
Sense of it before we talk about the scamma verse,
which is a great name. By the way, tell us
a bit about McAfee. You guys have been a leading
cybersecurity software company for decades now.
Speaker 6 (19:37):
Yeah, thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 7 (19:39):
And McAfee is now one hundred percent focused on protecting
the digital lives of consumers. So while McAfee has been
around for decades, we're constantly evolving. We're constantly focused on
developing new technology to protect consumers against the threats that
are most prevalent. So while a lot of people think
of McFee as as an antivirus company, we still do
(20:02):
a great job at that or actually number one in
the industry from both an efficacy and performance perspective. But
we're also putting a lot of our research and development
into some of the newer threat a lot of what
we're going to talk about today, which is all about
how do we defend consumers from the scams that are
becoming so prevalent in our environment.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
So it's not just about software as I'm looking at
my McAfee Ultimate Family Window right now, but also in
education and arming consumers and businesses and other organizations with
information to fight back as well. It's not always software,
because I guess they call it social engineering, where we
could be tricked into thinking that someone who is emailing us,
(20:44):
texting us, or calling us or dming us on social
media is the real deal, when in fact they're not.
They're scammers. But that can often get past software. So
I'm glad that your organization has broadened your mo if
you will to protect.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Consumers at all levels.
Speaker 3 (20:59):
And I think that's a good segue into the scam
Averse report that you commissioned. Tell us what that means
exactly what did you set out to find?
Speaker 7 (21:06):
What we really wanted to understand with the next level
of quantitative detail is how are consumers at the end
level getting impacted and exposed to scams. McFee is constantly
studying the state of the art for what scams we
can see in our labs. You know, we have everything
(21:29):
from what we call honeypot accounts where we're working to
try to make sure that scams that are occurring in
the wild are things that we're able to get a
hold of see analyze take apart. You know, we have
telemetry from our various products that give us an indication
of how prevalent certain things that.
Speaker 6 (21:50):
We're aware of are.
Speaker 7 (21:52):
But what we really wanted to do is have a
study that talked to a representative set of CAN consumers
and basically ask them the question how are they getting
impacted by scams? And what we found was somewhat alarming,
but unfortunately not that surprising. You know, we found that
(22:13):
about two thirds of consumers have either been involved in
falling victim for a scam or knowing someone personally that
has been and in those cases, more than half the
time it is for really a substantial amount of money,
you know, in the order of one thousand dollars or more.
Speaker 5 (22:35):
Wow.
Speaker 7 (22:36):
We also found that consumers really need to be on
their guard continuously. The average number of scams that consumers
are exposed to in a day is twelve. So if
you think about, you know, bad things flying at you
from all angles, really around the clock when you're living
your digital life, whether it's coming from your email or
(22:58):
from your text messages, or from your social engagement or
now having to be aware that when you're watching video
or looking at images online that a lot of that
content can be created.
Speaker 6 (23:11):
With AI what we call a deep fake.
Speaker 7 (23:14):
You need to be really aware that some of this
clearly can be for good purposes, but a lot of
it is trying to help create an environment that is
what we call a scam and you know, you're now
living in the scam averse, as the report was called.
And what we're doing is we're working to both educate
(23:35):
consumers on what to look for, how to make sure
they're not falling victim to scams, but also arming them
with the next generation of technology. You know, I'll definitely
chat in today's discussion a bit about some of the
great things that we're building to help consumers really identify
when they're being exposed to a scam and have the
(23:57):
right tools.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
All right, So yeah, before we talk about how to
fight back, which definitely is needed here, that would be
remiss not to talk about that, but tell us a
bit more, please, about AI helping these scammers. These deep
fake videos, they look legit and they're getting increasingly realistic.
You were talking this morning, for example, during your press event.
(24:19):
One batch of deep fake videos or photos are over
the top.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Ridiculous, so you already know that they're not real.
Speaker 3 (24:27):
Like I think your example was Trump and Biden riding
unicorns and fighting with it like it was something silly
because it was so ridiculous that you know it's not real.
But obviously that's just to show what the technology can do.
It's the more subtle or more realistic videos that could
convince someone that it's someone.
Speaker 6 (24:45):
That is not You're spot on.
Speaker 7 (24:47):
So if we think about generative AI for creating things
like images or video, a lot of it is not malicious.
So some of it is used for parody, some of
that is used for creativity. There's a whole segment that
is generating artificial intelligence based art.
Speaker 6 (25:07):
All of that's fine.
Speaker 7 (25:09):
The challenge becomes when generative AI is being used to
create something that looks indiscernible from reality and the end
consumer is not able to tell is it real or fake?
And the paradox that we're in is it's getting harder
(25:29):
and harder and i'd say almost impossible for consumers to
be able to tell the difference between a real image
and an AI generated image, while at the same time
it's becoming easier and easier for bad actors to create
both images and video that are more and more real,
(25:50):
So easier for the bad guys, harder for all the
good consumers of the.
Speaker 6 (25:55):
World to defend themselves.
Speaker 7 (25:57):
And that's where we're focused on trying to educate as
well as provide the best technology.
Speaker 6 (26:04):
But you know your spot on what a.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
Thrill to have Steve Grobman CTO, chief Technical Officer of McAfee.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
On Tech it Out.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
When we return, he's going to continue his examples of
AI being used, so stay tuned for that.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
We'll be right back breaking down geek speak into street speak.
Check it Out hosted by Mark Saltzman.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Welcome back to check it Out.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
We are chatting with Steve Grobman, CTO at McAfee. We're
learning all about its scam averse findings, what it is,
how people are falling for scams. We've also discussed differences
in demographics and how AI is aiding these scammers. Before
the break, Steve, you were giving us an example of
something that most people would know is a something ridiculous
(27:02):
and how when it's more subtle, obviously it's harder to detect,
So please elaborate on that.
Speaker 7 (27:07):
Yeah, I think the example I gave this morning was,
you know, you have two presidents writing unicycles uticycle.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
I said unicorns.
Speaker 7 (27:16):
Yeah, unicorns would would probably be be just just as
good as as well. But you know, if you saw
that image, your natural instinct would be it's not real.
Whereas if you had an image of one of those
politicians talking to a world leader like that might be
(27:37):
something that would be very believable. And if context around
it was set up to make a point, you know,
a normal consumer wouldn't be able to tell the difference
did that really happen or not without doing things like
fact checking.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
And that's where I was going to ask you about
the scam part. If you can give an example, a
real one or a made up one of how a
deep fake video can actually dupe someone into spending money.
Speaker 4 (28:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (28:01):
So, one of the most common scams that we see
with deep fake video is what we call a fake
investment scam. Typically it's a form of crypto scam where
a high profile individual, very often it's a tech legend
of Bill Gates and Elon Musk. Sometimes it's more of
(28:21):
a celebrity, but they're basically giving a pitch that there's
a new technology that is using artificial intelligence or quantum
computing that allows you to invest money with a much
greater rate of return than has ever been available, and
it's only going to be lucrative if you're one of
(28:43):
the first investors. So the point being there creating this
sense of urgency that if you want to hit it big,
you have to depart with your money right now. They'll
basically set up all the mechanics of how to convert
real money into cryptocurrency and then move it in to
what essentially is a fraudulent investment platform.
Speaker 6 (29:04):
The victims of.
Speaker 7 (29:05):
These scams never get their money back. There's some nuance
and sometimes some creativity. We've even seen cases where sometimes
they'll let a victim take a little bit of money
out in order to gain additional credibility that it's not
a scam, to encourage them to put much more in,
(29:26):
and that's when they close the trap door and basically vanished.
Is one example. There are many others. We see Generative
AI being used in a lot of romance scams. You
can think of a romance scam as a victim believes
that they're involved in a close relationship with somebody online.
Generative AI is often used to both create images that
(29:51):
can be sent from the scammer to the victim.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
Yeah, we talked with Visa just before you, Steve about
romance scams and how AI was making the problem even worse.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
So, yeah, thank you for that.
Speaker 7 (30:03):
That was one of the things that we studied in
this analysis. You know, we found that the younger demographic
was able to very quickly identify that a scam was
in progress, typically under thirty minutes, whereas the fifty five
and older demographic would a lot of times not know
(30:25):
they'd been scammed until there was some secondary indicator, like
they got a credit card bill, they got a bank statement,
and they were able to put the pieces together that
they they've actually been taken advantage of and fun have
been depleted. You know, we're really trying to understand not
(30:45):
only the mechanics of how these scams occur, but the
aftermath to really educate folks to be hyper aware and
if they're suspicious of something, we've tried to give guidance.
Speaker 3 (30:58):
And before we talked back, and you've already hinted at
some things we can do, Steve, I'm sure AI is
more than just deep fakes, right, isn't artificial intelligence also
helping scammers better write or target like highly personalized attacks
on people by you know, scrubbing their social media profile
and knowing certain things about them like AI is also
(31:18):
helping in that respect.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Unfortunately, correct one.
Speaker 7 (31:21):
Hundred percent, and a few key points on that some
of the advice that consumers might have heard a few
years ago no longer applies. You might have heard that
a good way to detect a scam is if the
grammar's not right or if they see spelling errors. The
scammers don't have grammar and spelling errors anymore. Everybody is
(31:42):
using large language models generative AI to write their scams,
and to your personalization point, it's not only about the
pieces that consumers have intentionally put in the public domain.
There's been a lot of data breaches over the last
year or two, which provides tremendous fuel for creating personalized
(32:04):
scams to individuals. So if you think about the data
that's in these data breaches, it's things such as who
are your family members, where did you previously work, where
do you currently work, where do you live, and all
of that can be crafted into a note that adds credibility.
You can think of you used to work for a
(32:26):
company and you get an email that says, you know, hey,
you might remember me. I'm Bob, we work together at
XYZ company. I hear that you're going to be in town.
And you know, even if you don't remember that person,
like the fact that there's so much credible information that
is accurate, it adds authenticity to the email and you
(32:48):
start to trust it. And if they put something like
I'm looking for a job and you know, check out
my profile. When we got together last I took some
amazing pictures. Things that can kind of take you into
the next phase of the scam.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Yeah, great point and scary times.
Speaker 3 (33:03):
Indeed, a little bit more with Steve Groepman from McAfee
chief technical Officer when we return on tech it out.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
Follow Mark Saltzman on Facebook, on Twitter, on Instagram. Listen
to check it out whenever you want.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
A couple of minutes left with Steve Grobman, CTO of
McAfee to talk to us about its latest report, the
scam Averse. You've already given us, Steve some great ideas
to fight back, but let's dive a little bit deeper
if we can. Before I let you go, what can
regular consumers do? I'm sure cybersecurity tools like what McAfee
provides helps.
Speaker 7 (33:46):
So there's three things that are important for consumers to
think about. Number One, if you get something that you
want to either act on or is going to change
the way you think about the world, fact check it.
You know, there's so much disinformation, especially on social media
(34:08):
platforms as moderation policies are evolving, that if you see
something inflammatory, it's really important before you like it, forward it,
repost it, just make sure it's real. With the LA
wildfires horrific. What's been going on the last couple of weeks.
We saw social media posts that showed things like the
(34:32):
Los Angeles Hollywood Hills with the Hollywood sign in flames
and in some of these posts they got over a
million views, lots of engagement. We analyzed them with our
advanced deepfake detection technology. One hundred percent false. You know, similarly,
if you went out and looked at them from credible
news organizations, one hundred percent fall. So make sure you
(34:54):
fact check number two. Take a step back. If you
get an email, a text, a direct message that's alarming,
recognize that creating a sense of urgency is one of
the key tools that scammers use. So if it looks
like it's a government agency that says there's going to
be a law enforcement action against you, or a bank
(35:16):
that says you know your money has been withdrawn, like,
all of these things are tactics the scammers know will
cause you to act very quickly, and it's important that
you take a step back, breathe, and really look at
all of the information in the communication, and then if
you're still concerned, reach out to the organization through an
(35:40):
independent contact channel. Call the number on the back of
your credit card, go to the direct statement or website
for your bank. Don't click on a link that's in
the communication. If it's a government or law enforcement agency,
look up their contact information directly and contact them. Those
(36:00):
are the key things, and then finally use the latest
and greatest technology to help you stay one step ahead.
Speaker 3 (36:09):
How about technology? How can software help as well? I
know it's not the be all, end all, but how
can McAfee help from a filtering, if you will, or
flagging standpoint?
Speaker 7 (36:19):
So we're introducing some brand new technology that's directly focused
on this problem of combating scams, helping users detect things
that they can't really detect easily with their own eyes
and ears.
Speaker 6 (36:35):
So deep fakes that we've talked a lot about.
Speaker 7 (36:38):
We introduced a technology last year called deep Fake Detector
that helps flag AI generated videos for users. We're expanding
this to work for all of our customers on a
much wider variety of hardware. Initially, it was only possible
to run this technology on AI IPCs with specialized AI hardware.
(37:03):
We're now expanding that to be able to have a
much broader scope. We're also going to be launching for
our customers technology that the text scams in both text
and email. We know that text and email remains one
of the primary communication channels that the scammers use and
our tech scam detection will help detect text messages that
(37:28):
are really scams. And similarly, our email scam detection will
help customers detect scams when they come through email.
Speaker 3 (37:36):
All right, and where can we learn more about that, Steve?
As we wrap up what's the best website?
Speaker 7 (37:40):
So we've actually set up a dedicated site that's all
about artificial intelligence, how it can be used to defend users,
but also about how it's being used by bad actors.
It's www dot MacFee dot ai. And if listeners want
to learn more about mcfee's products and all of our
(38:01):
great offerings, it's www dot McFee dot com.
Speaker 3 (38:04):
All right, Steve Grobman, chief technical officer at McAfee. All right,
McAfee dot ai and that's mc afbe. Thanks again, Steve,
always great chatting with you. Thank you for this insightful conversation,
very helpful.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
Thank you again.
Speaker 3 (38:19):
Thanks so much, Mark, and thank you for tuning in
to the program this week. It was a very cybersecurity
focused one, first with Visa on romance scams and then
the scam Averse with McAfee. On a related note, don't
forget to properly back up your important files on a
regular basis, just in case something happens to your PC.
I always trust sand Disk and Western Digital external drives
(38:41):
that can hold massive amounts of data without breaking the bank.
Very trustworthy. Don't have to pay for a monthly cloud
subscription either westerndigital dot com has more or SanDisk dot com.
Have a great rest of your day. Everyone, a fantastic
week ahead and I look forward to catching up with
you next weekend for another brand new episode of Tack
it Out. Take care of everyone, Bye bye for now.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.