November 6, 2024 • 31 mins
n this episode of Tech Zone, Paul Amadeus Lane explores the intersection of technology and medical cannabis with Luke Macfarlan, COO of Leafwell. Discover how telehealth is transforming access to medical cannabis, improving patient care, and breaking down barriers in this rapidly evolving industry. Tune in as Paul and Luke discuss:
- The benefits and challenges of medical cannabis telehealth
- Leafwell's innovative approach to patient care
- The future of technology in the medical cannabis space
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:19):
In this world of technology, things are ever changing, rearranging.
You need someone to help you out. I know someone
who can come and take a journey with me. As
we go through the land of technology. You'll never be alone.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
You'll be with Paul.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
I'm an dance laying in the tech Zone.
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Take a little trip with me and hopefully you can
see how the hood, suburbs and main street are all
connected no respect can I mean we network across the
globe because h's a global market in case s you
didn't know, and since we all about information flow, let
me be the first one to work from you to
Tech Zone with Paul Armada Slane, let's talk tech technology
(01:04):
changing the game. It's so good in the hood, it's everywhere.
Now let's get into the show because we love Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Well, welcome back to the Tech Zone.
Speaker 5 (01:15):
Whether you are with us from the start, are just
joining in now, I'm glad you are here.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Where we kicked off things.
Speaker 5 (01:22):
We took some of the look at the biggest tech headlines,
including the wild AI lawsuit against Tesla, Google's do AI
detection tool, and Microsoft's pushed into antonomous AI agents. It's
a lot to take in, but that's the tech world
for you, always moving at warp speed, So engage now,
(01:48):
don't forget. You can find all the shows, extra resources
and ways to connect with me on my website Paulamdancelane
dot com US for the latest tech news and some
behind the scenes fun. Follow me on all my social
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(02:09):
Paul on wheels, that's me. But Paul, I'm a dance laying.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
That's the way you connect with me on all social
media platforms.
Speaker 5 (02:15):
Even LinkedIn Why because I am a business man, Because
I'm all about my business man. So let's connect now.
As promised, we're diving into the world where medicine and
technology collide. It's truly a fascinating space and it's incredible
(02:37):
to see how these two fields are really merging to
improve healthcare and ultimately our lives. And who would have
funk it that we would be this deep in technology
and medicine and telehealth. The pandemic really had this explode,
(02:58):
but now we're seeing even go any further.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
So we are seeing.
Speaker 5 (03:04):
AI being used to diagnose diseases, develop new treatments, and
even personalized patient care. But with these advancements come important questions.
How quickly are we willing to trust AI with our health?
But what are the potential downsides and ethical concerns? See,
(03:26):
these are the things we need to consider as we
move forward. AI is here, folks, it ain't going nowhere.
It is here to stay. So what can we do
and to help us navigate this existing landscape when it
comes to technology and AI, I am joined by Luke McFarland,
(03:51):
who is the CEO of leaf Will, a leading medical
cannabis telehealth company. So without any further delay, let's walk
welcome our guests onto the tech I am so delighted
to have with me right now. My next guest, he
is the CEO oh of leaf Well, Luke McFarlane.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Luke, what's going on, buddy? How are you?
Speaker 3 (04:16):
I'm doing all right, brother? How are you?
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Dylan? All right?
Speaker 5 (04:19):
I cannot complain looking at that beautiful weather, autumn weather
that you're having in Virginia. I am definitely jealous being
up here in the desert in California.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
It is.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
It is the perfect time of year to be around
here in central Virginia. So we got the leaves changing color,
the first feelings to fall, with cool mornings. But you
know you're in a good spot too, so we can
we can be jealous of one another. How about that?
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Absolutely?
Speaker 5 (04:44):
Absolutely so, So Luca, you know I wanted to have
you on to talk about how technology and medicine are
now at this intersection now where it plays a role
in patient care and how your company Well is using
technology to make things easier for those who who medically
(05:08):
in need cannabis and Loke talk about just the origin
of the company, how did we get to where we're
out today, and then we'll talk about how technology plays
a role.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
Sure, so let's start with the origin of the company.
Our founder, Emily Fisher, she had a experience after a
surgical procedure when she was in California where she wanted
to avoid taking opiates and wanted to manage her pain.
So she had the opportunity to try cannabis and to
(05:41):
do so and it was super effective, at least the
first time she used it. Then she ran out of
the products that she had, she went to another dispensary,
found something that she felt might be similar to what
she had managed her pain with previously, and then when
she went to use it, she had a horrible adversary
action or adverse event. She ended up going to the
(06:01):
er having a terrible night, you know, not feeling so well.
So that launched her on a journey where she wanted
to find a way to provide all the good experience
that she had had with cannabis as an alternative adjunctive
therapy to people who were in conditions or in places
like had conditions like her, in places like she might
(06:21):
have been medically without having the negative effects that she
had had. So that's sort of the genesis story. The
company was stood up just before COVID and just before
the federal government passed laws making telemedicine a lot easier,
you know, to be provided to patients. And what happened
(06:43):
is we stood up in one state along with the
medical cannabis program that was that was offered in Oklahoma
at the time, and then people responded incredibly well. So
we're a business to consumer platform. We specialize in providing
consultations for patient and so we're seeking to qualify for
state medical cannabis programs obviously not federal, but you know
(07:06):
what's happening at the state. The company therefore collect connects
patients with licensed healthcare providers who can assess their medical
conditions and determine if they qualify for medical cannabis under
their state laws. So it's really about beginning that journey
with access through trusted medical providers belief. Also focusing focuses
(07:28):
on education, education of both patients and providers about the benefits,
the research and the use of medical cannabis. So that's
kind of our story. That's how we ended up where
we are today.
Speaker 5 (07:40):
Paul, appreciate you know, sharing that with me, Luke and
Luke when you look at you talked about the state laws,
the fact that there is no federal standard for medical cannabis,
does that make it difficult to help those who really
(08:04):
need this because states say no, no, no, and some
say yes yes yes.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Will a federal standard make it easy for you to
do what you do with leaf?
Speaker 3 (08:13):
Well, yeah, I mean one of the problems with being
a pioneer is that, you know, the federal government's just
opening the forty acres you know, in the coming months,
we hope are in the coming years. And it's really
been individuals and states who have embarked on this journey first.
So the states made this possible at a corporate level,
(08:34):
but there's also a lot of challenges there. You know,
we don't have one unified authority. We have a lot
of states experimenting with regulatory frameworks or systems by which
people can be given access to the plane itself after
they get the care. But for us, our challenges that
have existed with regards to the states have largely been regulatory.
(08:55):
So once the state goes live, which is sort of
the green light for us, they pass a medical cans law,
we have to look into a number of different requirements
that they also tend to pass along with that law,
meaning are they going to allow telemedicine for this type
of assessment of the patient. And then, once you know
we do provide that care, is there readily available cannabis
(09:18):
that is that is in a medical dispensary, an adult
use dispensary, or are they going to have to kind
of go back into the gray market or black market,
which which is a whole other problem there is. There's
an adjacent set of problems in many states now after
the Farm Bill was passed where you see patients who
can't tell the difference between products that have been derived
(09:41):
from hemp or products that have been derived from from
medical cannabis. So a lot of our challenges are regulatory.
Those are things we can navigate. There are things that
we can advocate for. But you touched on another thing
as well, which is because it's still a prohibited substance
at the federal level, a lot of the same technologies
that I use when I was at Starbucks and T
(10:01):
Mobile and at a number of startups subsequent to those
organizations are not available to cannabis because we are cannabis
adjacent as a medical provider talking about cannabis with patients,
we don't have access to a bunch of the services
that you're used to hearing. And you know, it doesn't
make sense to necessarily name them by a name, but
(10:21):
suffice to say that we have to. We have to
find organizations that are more open to risk or more
willing to have a conversation with us about taking our
business and already use their technology platforms to build our own.
And I think the final challenge is that because we
have a complicated regulatory environment and we are coming out
of you know, many many years of prohibition, we deal
(10:44):
a lot with winning trust and reversing stigma with our
target audience of patients or target market of patients who
could benefit from the adjunctive therapies or the adjunctive use
of medical cannabis. So it's really regulatory, and then it's
kind of business compliance or business risk and access to
the tech stack. And then finally it's even in the
(11:05):
patient population.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
You know, when you.
Speaker 5 (11:09):
Look at look at cannabis and the education behind what
cannabis is. You know, for many they just think cannabis, marijuana,
smoke weed as cannabis. But for our audience out there,
for ones out there who may not understand what cannabis is,
can you explain that for them?
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Please?
Speaker 3 (11:32):
Oh boy, yeah, I'll give a shot at that. That
is one of the major challenges created by the complexity
of the plant to begin with, and then by the
regulatory frameworks that we've had around it. So, you know,
close cousins in the world are hemp, which is federally
legal and cannabis, Like they're very similar plants, so similar
(11:53):
in fact that you can get many of the cannabinoids
out of hemp that you can get out of care
terms that a lot of people are used to hearing,
like THHC, THHC, A, uh, cbd, CBN. These are all
cannabinoids that have or compounds or molecules that come from
these plants that have psychoactive effects or who have that
(12:16):
have other effects on parts of the body that help
us with regulation or dysregulation or overcoming dysregulation. And you know,
even that is a challenge. We've got this this idea
of a whole new system within the body called the
endocannabinoid system or the ECS, which even when I started
at this company, I thought was sort of fringe science. Right,
(12:40):
So yeah, I think I think there's there's real challenges there.
I don't know if that answered your questions.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Now.
Speaker 5 (12:46):
I'm glad today because you know, it's one of those
things where we're once have them have their own mind
made up of what.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
It is, but but in reality it isn't.
Speaker 5 (12:55):
And it is good for once to be educated out
there so they can make an informed decision of what
with medical care you know, that they're comfortable with and
to be a part of it on the flip side
and maybe looking at something that could help them, but
because of stigmatism they have, they may not know that, yeah,
it is safe, it is effective you know for me
to for me to do this, And Luke, when we
(13:18):
look about how technology has played a role to having
this online place where once can go to not only
get with a medical professional and also be able to
get some help that they need. What type of technology
was kind of put into place, you know, to make
(13:41):
this process as easy as possible for patients.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
Yeah, sure, So reaching patients still directly meant that we
needed to have, you know, a standard marketing website, and
then on that that that standard marketing website needed to
be full of trust signals. We didn't want flashing neon lights,
we didn't want a lot of the the CpG or
you know, approaches that people might take to just get
(14:07):
people to to reflexively reflexively react. So we needed a
high trust site and we built that on you know
extact that a lot of people are already familiar with,
which is WordPress. And you know, we didn't do anything
fancy to start with. We didn't spin up a bunch
of infrastructure in AWS or anything like that. We we
(14:28):
had a team of people who really believed in open
source and using the technologies that powered the Internet to
start by reaching our patients. And then you know, a
lot of it came down to design after that, how
do we reach out to people or respond to people
who are searching for terms like cannabis or medical card
and so then you get into the whole fight around
(14:50):
you know, fighting for for SEO points or you know
SEU performance scores, and a lot of our site has
been about or you know a lot of this part
of our chnology stack has been about optimizing for SEO
and responding to the demand that is in the market
from you know, direct consumer, direct patient type of marketing.
(15:11):
So we haven't been able to use a lot of
the same marketing stacks that you know, any other organization
like us who doesn't serve cannabis might use. So the
next thing that we had to do was was really
develop technology connections to our partners. And our partners in
this case are the dispensaries, and because cannabis is so
(15:32):
hyper local, one of our early strategies that was very
successful for us in terms of growing and attracting patients
wasn't particularly technical, and that was to go partner with
the dispensaries and then to use the dispensaries marketing to
reach out to patients and to connect those patients to
their friends and family and say, hey, if you would
(15:52):
recommend leefwell tell them about something called a virtual patient drive.
We call them VPDs, and these virtual patron drive patient
drives were you know, windows of time that we stood
up and we surged provider support to focus on a
particular demographic or market of people that were marketed to
by a particular dispensary. So we might have had a
(16:15):
family of dispensaries in Oklahoma, for instance, that pushed out
a VPD for you know, the sixteenth and seventeenth of
October when people could come in for a slight discount
on our services, and we reached them through that sort
of B two B two C relationship and some of
the typical marketing tools that are available there. And then
(16:37):
obviously that we had to stand up a telemedicine platform,
and the telemedicine platform consists of an electronic health record system,
and we rolled our own for you know, the requirements
that we needed to be you know, hippo compliant, and
then we needed we needed the actual telemedic or the
face to face protocols, so we used them some out
(16:59):
of the box protocols there, and some of those were
ones that once they found out that we were cannabis adjacent,
decided to flip us off. So some of our challenges
are in the early years, we're actually having to scramble
because we had regulation based compliance problems where we would
just go our lights would go out and we'd have
to pivot over to a different solution or to provide
(17:20):
our services. It was it was very challenging period. Things
have gotten much more stable. Many more businesses in the
forty states that we're active in, given the forty states
that we're active in, are are okay, you know, working
as part of our tech stack. So, yeah, we built
the EHR, we built the telemedicine system, and then what's
really been amazing is that we've also built a means
(17:42):
of doing observational research, so we've maintained communication with our patients.
We have nearly four hundred thousand of them. And this
is where we really feel we're contributing through technology, is
that we're able to use all the tooling available to
epidemiologists in terms of you know, mathematical tooling or like
(18:02):
our studio and Python. We have that available to our
epidemiologists and our data scientists so that they can dig
through the data and find out where there's efficacy within
our patient population.
Speaker 5 (18:16):
Yeah, that that makes it that makes a lot of sense,
and and and Luke, what has been kind of like
the patient feedback that the Tunity team have have received
from ones who who are using using the platform.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
Yeah, we're we we we receive lots of different kinds
of feedback. So there's there are a couple types of
users who use our art our or take part in
our offering. One is someone who's been using Medical Canvas
for a very very long time and they purely want
access from us. They want to come in see a provider,
(18:50):
have their medical card renewde and then they want to
want to leave. It's about convenience, it's about price, it's
about efficiency, it's about trust, right, and and those patients
are are most interested in a frictionless experience. They want
to start by logging into our platform telling us they
want to do a renewal, and they want to be
done in like fifteen minutes, which is in the medical
(19:11):
system unheard of and yet starting to be possible through
the types of technology that we're deploying to replace a
calling your provider, you know, setting an appointment, traveling to
the doctor after taking work off, seeing the doctor, after
sitting in the waiting room for thirty minutes, for a
few minutes, then checking out, paying and going home. Right,
the value proposition to that user is significant. The second
(19:36):
type of patient that we see our patients that get
to the end of the access process and they haven't
been medical users, and what they are begging for is
to not have to go do their own research. They
want to say, hey, Doc, what do I do next?
What products do I go pick up from the dispensary?
And that is that is the break, that's the frontier, right,
That's where we're going in the coming months and years
(19:58):
is in helping not only coach the patient through how
they should use the products, but being able to specifically
recommend certain products in certain doses by name or by
brand that would be better for their condition.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Got you, got you? Definitely, definitely.
Speaker 5 (20:18):
So when you when you look at kind of like
the journey of the company and and when you're where
you're at today, what what are some things that that
you like to accomplish as a company the next few
years from now that would make the company.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Run even smoother than what it is.
Speaker 5 (20:39):
Any technologies AI that you may want to employ even
further when it comes to UH to your services.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
Yeah, so some of this, some of this really comes
down to how people in the United States expect to
interact with medical services and medical products. So I ask
you a question, and as part of my answer, when
you pay for a medical service or when you go
to get a medical service, how do you pay for it?
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Insurance boom.
Speaker 3 (21:12):
So one of the major structural issues that we have
to solve through technology, policy relationships, and you know, direction
with our business is to cross that chasm of moving
from a business to consumer self pay model to having
the payer be separated from the patient, and that can
be in the United States of America that can be
(21:32):
the patient has sort of a blended payment model where
they can have a subscription. That's something that's interesting, but
not quite as interesting as moving towards what we experience
everywhere else, which is that typically an employer pays for
something is a defined benefit because it's beneficial to the
employer or insurance or some other payment pay you know,
(21:55):
third party payer is involved. So I think that's that
is probably a huge each portion of what we're attacking
in order to unlock the bigger market, but also to
I mean that does a lot of things. It enhances
efficacy through increasing trust, gaining more access, it's going to
push quality and products. So I think you'll find that
(22:17):
that leaf Well is pushing into that space. And then
that involves a whole host of technologies that we're going
to have to take advantage of in order to do it.
We have the credential and manage the credentialing of our
providers on major health systems. We need to look at
claims processing. We need to do revenue cycle management on claims,
(22:39):
and we need to do beneficiary management. We need to
be able to determine whether or not you know, you
or I actually are eligible for a benefit, and you know,
by typing in a code or having a QR or
otherwise managing you know, that sort of thing, so that
we can then deliver the care on a copay or
totally free and then be able to recoup the money
(23:02):
is as opposed to realizing that that's that's not even
available to us. So there's a whole host of problems
that we need to solve as we move into that space.
I just attended a conference in Vegas hlt H that
is directly relevant to this part of our conversation. Disruption
is happening all over the health industry. Technology is being
used to eliminate a lot of the friction of that
(23:25):
space around you know, filing claims, getting CPT codes right,
making sure that doctors are compliant, making sure that networks
are efficient. It's a really exciting space to be in.
And on top of that, we're in an exciting space
within the medical system as a new adjunctive therapy available
(23:45):
to patients where the states.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Have approved it. Nice.
Speaker 5 (23:50):
Nice And when you when you look at again the
company's vision and staying on top of technology that they can,
they can definitely a system in the company's vision.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
When you look at let's say AI.
Speaker 5 (24:09):
In particular, are there any concerns where with using AI
or any other forms of technologies out there that because
we know the AI is heating up now, so everything
is is really you know, starting to take form. So
what's what's the company's take on AI and how much
(24:30):
AI to to kind of you know, have you know,
and just the business model and the services.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
Sure, man, that is a great question. I think you
can kind of be feel for all of AI or
you can sort of be I don't know, positive about
the outcomes that it might generate for our society, and
I think that you know, we have been looking into
this a lot. One of the ways that we're using it,
(24:57):
we're looking at using it very shortly, is in increasing
the accuracy and quality of support that we provide to
our patients through our support team. So patients might ask
about how the you know, how the system works in
a specific state in terms of getting their medical card,
and you know when to renew or how to renew,
(25:18):
and all of those typical support type questions are becoming
much cheaper to answer for a support team member who
doesn't have to go and research that or copy paste
or type in an answer for every patient's chat, email
or phone call. We can actually empower our support team
to answer many, many more questions, many many more patient
(25:39):
concerns by using AI prompted or AI generated responses that
they then QC and then fire off. So that's the
first place that I think is not particularly dangerous because
it's being demonstrated by other organizations outside of our space.
But I think when people get really concerned about AI,
it's it's a lot of times around prime and that
(26:00):
is particularly true for us. So as as a healthcare
you know, organization or an organization that's looking at coordinating
healthcare on behalf of our provider network. We are very
careful around how we're planning to use AI with regards
to patient privacy. So insofar as we might use AI
(26:20):
to help drive efficacy or understand in you know, the
sixty or seventy or you know, two hundred thousand different
products in the space right now, versus the many conditions
that people are trying to use cannabis to address. We
want to make sure that we're anonymizing, you know, the
information that we put into that type of system, and
(26:42):
that we're not doing it that we're that we have
very good data controls that you know, we know that
that's not being sucked up by one of one of
the large systems that is that is trying to use
that data as training data. So I would say like
we're both very excited about what's possible across very very
very very large data that's with AI in terms of
advancing cannabis as medicine so that more and more people
(27:05):
can experience the upside and the value that it produces.
But and then we're also excited about you know, business
operational efficiencies. But we are very I would not say concerned,
but I would say defensive about making sure that privacy
is held paramount definitely.
Speaker 5 (27:25):
And Looke, is there anything else you'd like to share
about about the company or anything that we didn't get
a chance to touch on and that you can share
with us.
Speaker 3 (27:34):
Yeah, I mean, I think, I think the challenges that
we face are are super exciting for someone who's who's
come from any other industry as a technologist. I mean,
I was at T Mobile, I was at Starbucks. I've
been in the department offense, you know, building systems that
allow us to surveil or understand the battle feel better.
(27:56):
And then finally I ended up, you know, in the
discounts motions and discounts team at Alaska Airlines. And what
I will say is that for people who look into
cannabis as an adjunctive therapy and a way to lower
the cost of health care, not just for individuals, but
maybe for everyone in this country, which are just runaway
costs right now, what I would say to people who
(28:18):
are interested in technology that this is a space that
can really benefit in coming up to speed with your
knowledge and expertise in the rest of the industry. Do
you have a bunch of experience with shopify and with
e commerce, come on over to cannabis and figure out
how you can help us make it, make it happen.
So it's a little bit of a plug, and I think,
I think what we're going to find is that people
(28:40):
who are interested in technology and applying the latest and
greatest technologies find fertile fields for applying their careers and
their knowledge and their expertise into an industry that's coming
out of prohibition, and it's coming out of prohibition rapidly,
so it's a neat place to be if you want
to make a difference.
Speaker 5 (29:00):
Nice, Well, look, thank you so much for joining on
and hopping on with me and and topping and talking
about this, uh, this topic right here.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Really appreciated. Why don't you give us that website out
one more time? Sure?
Speaker 3 (29:13):
That's the leaf well dot com and luc and following
the COO, we'd love to see you.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Said, awesome, We'll look forward to catching up with you soon, Luke.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
Paul looking looking forward to talking again soon as well.
Speaker 5 (29:24):
And that's a wrap on another insightful conversation here on
the tech Zone. Luke, I really appreciate you at taking
the time to share your expertise on telehealth and the
innovative work that leaf Well is doing in the medical
cannabis space. So, friends, I can't believe that the show
(29:52):
is here and gone just that quick. But I always
enjoy having you guys on and talking with you. So
what do we talk about this? We've done a show.
We covered a lot of ground, from AI lawsuits and
antonomous agents to the latest in all minute reality and
the amazing potential of telehealth. It's clear that technology is
(30:18):
ever changing, it arranging that sounds so weird, doesn't it,
and rapidly reshaping not only the world, but even our
lives personally. It is truly intriguing times that we are
we are definitely living in. So thanks for tuning in
to the tech Zone. We'll be back next week with
(30:41):
more explorations at the cutting edge of technology. Until then,
stay healthy, stay safe, and as always, remember I love
you all of life.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Take care.
Speaker 5 (30:58):
In this world.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
The technology things are ever changing, rearranging.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
You need someone to help you out. I need someone
that can be alone. You'll be with Paul.
Speaker 4 (31:09):
I'm gonna get slaying in the Tech Zone
In this world of technology, things are ever changing, rearranging.
You need someone to help you out. I know someone
who can come and take a journey with me. As
we go through the land of technology. You'll never be alone.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
You'll be with Paul.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
I'm an dance laying in the tech Zone.
Speaker 4 (00:40):
Take a little trip with me and hopefully you can
see how the hood, suburbs and main street are all
connected no respect can I mean we network across the
globe because h's a global market in case s you
didn't know, and since we all about information flow, let
me be the first one to work from you to
Tech Zone with Paul Armada Slane, let's talk tech technology
(01:04):
changing the game. It's so good in the hood, it's everywhere.
Now let's get into the show because we love Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Well, welcome back to the Tech Zone.
Speaker 5 (01:15):
Whether you are with us from the start, are just
joining in now, I'm glad you are here.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Where we kicked off things.
Speaker 5 (01:22):
We took some of the look at the biggest tech headlines,
including the wild AI lawsuit against Tesla, Google's do AI
detection tool, and Microsoft's pushed into antonomous AI agents. It's
a lot to take in, but that's the tech world
for you, always moving at warp speed, So engage now,
(01:48):
don't forget. You can find all the shows, extra resources
and ways to connect with me on my website Paulamdancelane
dot com US for the latest tech news and some
behind the scenes fun. Follow me on all my social
media platforms. I have a lot of fun in my wheelchair.
(02:09):
Paul on wheels, that's me. But Paul, I'm a dance laying.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
That's the way you connect with me on all social
media platforms.
Speaker 5 (02:15):
Even LinkedIn Why because I am a business man, Because
I'm all about my business man. So let's connect now.
As promised, we're diving into the world where medicine and
technology collide. It's truly a fascinating space and it's incredible
(02:37):
to see how these two fields are really merging to
improve healthcare and ultimately our lives. And who would have
funk it that we would be this deep in technology
and medicine and telehealth. The pandemic really had this explode,
(02:58):
but now we're seeing even go any further.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
So we are seeing.
Speaker 5 (03:04):
AI being used to diagnose diseases, develop new treatments, and
even personalized patient care. But with these advancements come important questions.
How quickly are we willing to trust AI with our health?
But what are the potential downsides and ethical concerns? See,
(03:26):
these are the things we need to consider as we
move forward. AI is here, folks, it ain't going nowhere.
It is here to stay. So what can we do
and to help us navigate this existing landscape when it
comes to technology and AI, I am joined by Luke McFarland,
(03:51):
who is the CEO of leaf Will, a leading medical
cannabis telehealth company. So without any further delay, let's walk
welcome our guests onto the tech I am so delighted
to have with me right now. My next guest, he
is the CEO oh of leaf Well, Luke McFarlane.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Luke, what's going on, buddy? How are you?
Speaker 3 (04:16):
I'm doing all right, brother? How are you?
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Dylan? All right?
Speaker 5 (04:19):
I cannot complain looking at that beautiful weather, autumn weather
that you're having in Virginia. I am definitely jealous being
up here in the desert in California.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
It is.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
It is the perfect time of year to be around
here in central Virginia. So we got the leaves changing color,
the first feelings to fall, with cool mornings. But you
know you're in a good spot too, so we can
we can be jealous of one another. How about that?
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Absolutely?
Speaker 5 (04:44):
Absolutely so, So Luca, you know I wanted to have
you on to talk about how technology and medicine are
now at this intersection now where it plays a role
in patient care and how your company Well is using
technology to make things easier for those who who medically
(05:08):
in need cannabis and Loke talk about just the origin
of the company, how did we get to where we're
out today, and then we'll talk about how technology plays
a role.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
Sure, so let's start with the origin of the company.
Our founder, Emily Fisher, she had a experience after a
surgical procedure when she was in California where she wanted
to avoid taking opiates and wanted to manage her pain.
So she had the opportunity to try cannabis and to
(05:41):
do so and it was super effective, at least the
first time she used it. Then she ran out of
the products that she had, she went to another dispensary,
found something that she felt might be similar to what
she had managed her pain with previously, and then when
she went to use it, she had a horrible adversary
action or adverse event. She ended up going to the
(06:01):
er having a terrible night, you know, not feeling so well.
So that launched her on a journey where she wanted
to find a way to provide all the good experience
that she had had with cannabis as an alternative adjunctive
therapy to people who were in conditions or in places
like had conditions like her, in places like she might
(06:21):
have been medically without having the negative effects that she
had had. So that's sort of the genesis story. The
company was stood up just before COVID and just before
the federal government passed laws making telemedicine a lot easier,
you know, to be provided to patients. And what happened
(06:43):
is we stood up in one state along with the
medical cannabis program that was that was offered in Oklahoma
at the time, and then people responded incredibly well. So
we're a business to consumer platform. We specialize in providing
consultations for patient and so we're seeking to qualify for
state medical cannabis programs obviously not federal, but you know
(07:06):
what's happening at the state. The company therefore collect connects
patients with licensed healthcare providers who can assess their medical
conditions and determine if they qualify for medical cannabis under
their state laws. So it's really about beginning that journey
with access through trusted medical providers belief. Also focusing focuses
(07:28):
on education, education of both patients and providers about the benefits,
the research and the use of medical cannabis. So that's
kind of our story. That's how we ended up where
we are today.
Speaker 5 (07:40):
Paul, appreciate you know, sharing that with me, Luke and
Luke when you look at you talked about the state laws,
the fact that there is no federal standard for medical cannabis,
does that make it difficult to help those who really
(08:04):
need this because states say no, no, no, and some
say yes yes yes.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Will a federal standard make it easy for you to
do what you do with leaf?
Speaker 3 (08:13):
Well, yeah, I mean one of the problems with being
a pioneer is that, you know, the federal government's just
opening the forty acres you know, in the coming months,
we hope are in the coming years. And it's really
been individuals and states who have embarked on this journey first.
So the states made this possible at a corporate level,
(08:34):
but there's also a lot of challenges there. You know,
we don't have one unified authority. We have a lot
of states experimenting with regulatory frameworks or systems by which
people can be given access to the plane itself after
they get the care. But for us, our challenges that
have existed with regards to the states have largely been regulatory.
(08:55):
So once the state goes live, which is sort of
the green light for us, they pass a medical cans law,
we have to look into a number of different requirements
that they also tend to pass along with that law,
meaning are they going to allow telemedicine for this type
of assessment of the patient. And then, once you know
we do provide that care, is there readily available cannabis
(09:18):
that is that is in a medical dispensary, an adult
use dispensary, or are they going to have to kind
of go back into the gray market or black market,
which which is a whole other problem there is. There's
an adjacent set of problems in many states now after
the Farm Bill was passed where you see patients who
can't tell the difference between products that have been derived
(09:41):
from hemp or products that have been derived from from
medical cannabis. So a lot of our challenges are regulatory.
Those are things we can navigate. There are things that
we can advocate for. But you touched on another thing
as well, which is because it's still a prohibited substance
at the federal level, a lot of the same technologies
that I use when I was at Starbucks and T
(10:01):
Mobile and at a number of startups subsequent to those
organizations are not available to cannabis because we are cannabis
adjacent as a medical provider talking about cannabis with patients,
we don't have access to a bunch of the services
that you're used to hearing. And you know, it doesn't
make sense to necessarily name them by a name, but
(10:21):
suffice to say that we have to. We have to
find organizations that are more open to risk or more
willing to have a conversation with us about taking our
business and already use their technology platforms to build our own.
And I think the final challenge is that because we
have a complicated regulatory environment and we are coming out
of you know, many many years of prohibition, we deal
(10:44):
a lot with winning trust and reversing stigma with our
target audience of patients or target market of patients who
could benefit from the adjunctive therapies or the adjunctive use
of medical cannabis. So it's really regulatory, and then it's
kind of business compliance or business risk and access to
the tech stack. And then finally it's even in the
(11:05):
patient population.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
You know, when you.
Speaker 5 (11:09):
Look at look at cannabis and the education behind what
cannabis is. You know, for many they just think cannabis, marijuana,
smoke weed as cannabis. But for our audience out there,
for ones out there who may not understand what cannabis is,
can you explain that for them?
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Please?
Speaker 3 (11:32):
Oh boy, yeah, I'll give a shot at that. That
is one of the major challenges created by the complexity
of the plant to begin with, and then by the
regulatory frameworks that we've had around it. So, you know,
close cousins in the world are hemp, which is federally
legal and cannabis, Like they're very similar plants, so similar
(11:53):
in fact that you can get many of the cannabinoids
out of hemp that you can get out of care
terms that a lot of people are used to hearing,
like THHC, THHC, A, uh, cbd, CBN. These are all
cannabinoids that have or compounds or molecules that come from
these plants that have psychoactive effects or who have that
(12:16):
have other effects on parts of the body that help
us with regulation or dysregulation or overcoming dysregulation. And you know,
even that is a challenge. We've got this this idea
of a whole new system within the body called the
endocannabinoid system or the ECS, which even when I started
at this company, I thought was sort of fringe science. Right,
(12:40):
So yeah, I think I think there's there's real challenges there.
I don't know if that answered your questions.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Now.
Speaker 5 (12:46):
I'm glad today because you know, it's one of those
things where we're once have them have their own mind
made up of what.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
It is, but but in reality it isn't.
Speaker 5 (12:55):
And it is good for once to be educated out
there so they can make an informed decision of what
with medical care you know, that they're comfortable with and
to be a part of it on the flip side
and maybe looking at something that could help them, but
because of stigmatism they have, they may not know that, yeah,
it is safe, it is effective you know for me
to for me to do this, And Luke, when we
(13:18):
look about how technology has played a role to having
this online place where once can go to not only
get with a medical professional and also be able to
get some help that they need. What type of technology
was kind of put into place, you know, to make
(13:41):
this process as easy as possible for patients.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
Yeah, sure, So reaching patients still directly meant that we
needed to have, you know, a standard marketing website, and
then on that that that standard marketing website needed to
be full of trust signals. We didn't want flashing neon lights,
we didn't want a lot of the the CpG or
you know, approaches that people might take to just get
(14:07):
people to to reflexively reflexively react. So we needed a
high trust site and we built that on you know
extact that a lot of people are already familiar with,
which is WordPress. And you know, we didn't do anything
fancy to start with. We didn't spin up a bunch
of infrastructure in AWS or anything like that. We we
(14:28):
had a team of people who really believed in open
source and using the technologies that powered the Internet to
start by reaching our patients. And then you know, a
lot of it came down to design after that, how
do we reach out to people or respond to people
who are searching for terms like cannabis or medical card
and so then you get into the whole fight around
(14:50):
you know, fighting for for SEO points or you know
SEU performance scores, and a lot of our site has
been about or you know a lot of this part
of our chnology stack has been about optimizing for SEO
and responding to the demand that is in the market
from you know, direct consumer, direct patient type of marketing.
(15:11):
So we haven't been able to use a lot of
the same marketing stacks that you know, any other organization
like us who doesn't serve cannabis might use. So the
next thing that we had to do was was really
develop technology connections to our partners. And our partners in
this case are the dispensaries, and because cannabis is so
(15:32):
hyper local, one of our early strategies that was very
successful for us in terms of growing and attracting patients
wasn't particularly technical, and that was to go partner with
the dispensaries and then to use the dispensaries marketing to
reach out to patients and to connect those patients to
their friends and family and say, hey, if you would
(15:52):
recommend leefwell tell them about something called a virtual patient drive.
We call them VPDs, and these virtual patron drive patient
drives were you know, windows of time that we stood
up and we surged provider support to focus on a
particular demographic or market of people that were marketed to
by a particular dispensary. So we might have had a
(16:15):
family of dispensaries in Oklahoma, for instance, that pushed out
a VPD for you know, the sixteenth and seventeenth of
October when people could come in for a slight discount
on our services, and we reached them through that sort
of B two B two C relationship and some of
the typical marketing tools that are available there. And then
(16:37):
obviously that we had to stand up a telemedicine platform,
and the telemedicine platform consists of an electronic health record system,
and we rolled our own for you know, the requirements
that we needed to be you know, hippo compliant, and
then we needed we needed the actual telemedic or the
face to face protocols, so we used them some out
(16:59):
of the box protocols there, and some of those were
ones that once they found out that we were cannabis adjacent,
decided to flip us off. So some of our challenges
are in the early years, we're actually having to scramble
because we had regulation based compliance problems where we would
just go our lights would go out and we'd have
to pivot over to a different solution or to provide
(17:20):
our services. It was it was very challenging period. Things
have gotten much more stable. Many more businesses in the
forty states that we're active in, given the forty states
that we're active in, are are okay, you know, working
as part of our tech stack. So, yeah, we built
the EHR, we built the telemedicine system, and then what's
really been amazing is that we've also built a means
(17:42):
of doing observational research, so we've maintained communication with our patients.
We have nearly four hundred thousand of them. And this
is where we really feel we're contributing through technology, is
that we're able to use all the tooling available to
epidemiologists in terms of you know, mathematical tooling or like
(18:02):
our studio and Python. We have that available to our
epidemiologists and our data scientists so that they can dig
through the data and find out where there's efficacy within
our patient population.
Speaker 5 (18:16):
Yeah, that that makes it that makes a lot of sense,
and and and Luke, what has been kind of like
the patient feedback that the Tunity team have have received
from ones who who are using using the platform.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
Yeah, we're we we we receive lots of different kinds
of feedback. So there's there are a couple types of
users who use our art our or take part in
our offering. One is someone who's been using Medical Canvas
for a very very long time and they purely want
access from us. They want to come in see a provider,
(18:50):
have their medical card renewde and then they want to
want to leave. It's about convenience, it's about price, it's
about efficiency, it's about trust, right, and and those patients
are are most interested in a frictionless experience. They want
to start by logging into our platform telling us they
want to do a renewal, and they want to be
done in like fifteen minutes, which is in the medical
(19:11):
system unheard of and yet starting to be possible through
the types of technology that we're deploying to replace a
calling your provider, you know, setting an appointment, traveling to
the doctor after taking work off, seeing the doctor, after
sitting in the waiting room for thirty minutes, for a
few minutes, then checking out, paying and going home. Right,
the value proposition to that user is significant. The second
(19:36):
type of patient that we see our patients that get
to the end of the access process and they haven't
been medical users, and what they are begging for is
to not have to go do their own research. They
want to say, hey, Doc, what do I do next?
What products do I go pick up from the dispensary?
And that is that is the break, that's the frontier, right,
That's where we're going in the coming months and years
(19:58):
is in helping not only coach the patient through how
they should use the products, but being able to specifically
recommend certain products in certain doses by name or by
brand that would be better for their condition.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Got you, got you? Definitely, definitely.
Speaker 5 (20:18):
So when you when you look at kind of like
the journey of the company and and when you're where
you're at today, what what are some things that that
you like to accomplish as a company the next few
years from now that would make the company.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Run even smoother than what it is.
Speaker 5 (20:39):
Any technologies AI that you may want to employ even
further when it comes to UH to your services.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
Yeah, so some of this, some of this really comes
down to how people in the United States expect to
interact with medical services and medical products. So I ask
you a question, and as part of my answer, when
you pay for a medical service or when you go
to get a medical service, how do you pay for it?
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Insurance boom.
Speaker 3 (21:12):
So one of the major structural issues that we have
to solve through technology, policy relationships, and you know, direction
with our business is to cross that chasm of moving
from a business to consumer self pay model to having
the payer be separated from the patient, and that can
be in the United States of America that can be
(21:32):
the patient has sort of a blended payment model where
they can have a subscription. That's something that's interesting, but
not quite as interesting as moving towards what we experience
everywhere else, which is that typically an employer pays for
something is a defined benefit because it's beneficial to the
employer or insurance or some other payment pay you know,
(21:55):
third party payer is involved. So I think that's that
is probably a huge each portion of what we're attacking
in order to unlock the bigger market, but also to
I mean that does a lot of things. It enhances
efficacy through increasing trust, gaining more access, it's going to
push quality and products. So I think you'll find that
(22:17):
that leaf Well is pushing into that space. And then
that involves a whole host of technologies that we're going
to have to take advantage of in order to do it.
We have the credential and manage the credentialing of our
providers on major health systems. We need to look at
claims processing. We need to do revenue cycle management on claims,
(22:39):
and we need to do beneficiary management. We need to
be able to determine whether or not you know, you
or I actually are eligible for a benefit, and you know,
by typing in a code or having a QR or
otherwise managing you know, that sort of thing, so that
we can then deliver the care on a copay or
totally free and then be able to recoup the money
(23:02):
is as opposed to realizing that that's that's not even
available to us. So there's a whole host of problems
that we need to solve as we move into that space.
I just attended a conference in Vegas hlt H that
is directly relevant to this part of our conversation. Disruption
is happening all over the health industry. Technology is being
used to eliminate a lot of the friction of that
(23:25):
space around you know, filing claims, getting CPT codes right,
making sure that doctors are compliant, making sure that networks
are efficient. It's a really exciting space to be in.
And on top of that, we're in an exciting space
within the medical system as a new adjunctive therapy available
(23:45):
to patients where the states.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Have approved it. Nice.
Speaker 5 (23:50):
Nice And when you when you look at again the
company's vision and staying on top of technology that they can,
they can definitely a system in the company's vision.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
When you look at let's say AI.
Speaker 5 (24:09):
In particular, are there any concerns where with using AI
or any other forms of technologies out there that because
we know the AI is heating up now, so everything
is is really you know, starting to take form. So
what's what's the company's take on AI and how much
(24:30):
AI to to kind of you know, have you know,
and just the business model and the services.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
Sure, man, that is a great question. I think you
can kind of be feel for all of AI or
you can sort of be I don't know, positive about
the outcomes that it might generate for our society, and
I think that you know, we have been looking into
this a lot. One of the ways that we're using it,
(24:57):
we're looking at using it very shortly, is in increasing
the accuracy and quality of support that we provide to
our patients through our support team. So patients might ask
about how the you know, how the system works in
a specific state in terms of getting their medical card,
and you know when to renew or how to renew,
(25:18):
and all of those typical support type questions are becoming
much cheaper to answer for a support team member who
doesn't have to go and research that or copy paste
or type in an answer for every patient's chat, email
or phone call. We can actually empower our support team
to answer many, many more questions, many many more patient
(25:39):
concerns by using AI prompted or AI generated responses that
they then QC and then fire off. So that's the
first place that I think is not particularly dangerous because
it's being demonstrated by other organizations outside of our space.
But I think when people get really concerned about AI,
it's it's a lot of times around prime and that
(26:00):
is particularly true for us. So as as a healthcare
you know, organization or an organization that's looking at coordinating
healthcare on behalf of our provider network. We are very
careful around how we're planning to use AI with regards
to patient privacy. So insofar as we might use AI
(26:20):
to help drive efficacy or understand in you know, the
sixty or seventy or you know, two hundred thousand different
products in the space right now, versus the many conditions
that people are trying to use cannabis to address. We
want to make sure that we're anonymizing, you know, the
information that we put into that type of system, and
(26:42):
that we're not doing it that we're that we have
very good data controls that you know, we know that
that's not being sucked up by one of one of
the large systems that is that is trying to use
that data as training data. So I would say like
we're both very excited about what's possible across very very
very very large data that's with AI in terms of
advancing cannabis as medicine so that more and more people
(27:05):
can experience the upside and the value that it produces.
But and then we're also excited about you know, business
operational efficiencies. But we are very I would not say concerned,
but I would say defensive about making sure that privacy
is held paramount definitely.
Speaker 5 (27:25):
And Looke, is there anything else you'd like to share
about about the company or anything that we didn't get
a chance to touch on and that you can share
with us.
Speaker 3 (27:34):
Yeah, I mean, I think, I think the challenges that
we face are are super exciting for someone who's who's
come from any other industry as a technologist. I mean,
I was at T Mobile, I was at Starbucks. I've
been in the department offense, you know, building systems that
allow us to surveil or understand the battle feel better.
(27:56):
And then finally I ended up, you know, in the
discounts motions and discounts team at Alaska Airlines. And what
I will say is that for people who look into
cannabis as an adjunctive therapy and a way to lower
the cost of health care, not just for individuals, but
maybe for everyone in this country, which are just runaway
costs right now, what I would say to people who
(28:18):
are interested in technology that this is a space that
can really benefit in coming up to speed with your
knowledge and expertise in the rest of the industry. Do
you have a bunch of experience with shopify and with
e commerce, come on over to cannabis and figure out
how you can help us make it, make it happen.
So it's a little bit of a plug, and I think,
I think what we're going to find is that people
(28:40):
who are interested in technology and applying the latest and
greatest technologies find fertile fields for applying their careers and
their knowledge and their expertise into an industry that's coming
out of prohibition, and it's coming out of prohibition rapidly,
so it's a neat place to be if you want
to make a difference.
Speaker 5 (29:00):
Nice, Well, look, thank you so much for joining on
and hopping on with me and and topping and talking
about this, uh, this topic right here.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Really appreciated. Why don't you give us that website out
one more time? Sure?
Speaker 3 (29:13):
That's the leaf well dot com and luc and following
the COO, we'd love to see you.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Said, awesome, We'll look forward to catching up with you soon, Luke.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
Paul looking looking forward to talking again soon as well.
Speaker 5 (29:24):
And that's a wrap on another insightful conversation here on
the tech Zone. Luke, I really appreciate you at taking
the time to share your expertise on telehealth and the
innovative work that leaf Well is doing in the medical
cannabis space. So, friends, I can't believe that the show
(29:52):
is here and gone just that quick. But I always
enjoy having you guys on and talking with you. So
what do we talk about this? We've done a show.
We covered a lot of ground, from AI lawsuits and
antonomous agents to the latest in all minute reality and
the amazing potential of telehealth. It's clear that technology is
(30:18):
ever changing, it arranging that sounds so weird, doesn't it,
and rapidly reshaping not only the world, but even our
lives personally. It is truly intriguing times that we are
we are definitely living in. So thanks for tuning in
to the tech Zone. We'll be back next week with
(30:41):
more explorations at the cutting edge of technology. Until then,
stay healthy, stay safe, and as always, remember I love
you all of life.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Take care.
Speaker 5 (30:58):
In this world.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
The technology things are ever changing, rearranging.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
You need someone to help you out. I need someone
that can be alone. You'll be with Paul.
Speaker 4 (31:09):
I'm gonna get slaying in the Tech Zone
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Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com