El Laberinto de Rito Alejo

En este capítulo la nave territorializadora sobrevuela el laberinto de Rito Alejo, quien después de acogerse a la JEP no ha contribuido a la verdad. Abróchese los cinturones y acompáñenos en este viaje por la JEP.

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
At the back of Bula in chalupa, campero motorcycle or plane. Colombia is
traveled from south to north and fromeast to west. Its inhabitants glimpse the
abandonment and changes of their territories.In this season hop on the territorializing craft
and accompany them on this trip throughthe Land of the Forgot, a radio

(00:24):
rosary presents Territory hello to all andwelcome to the seventh episode of the second

(00:46):
season of Territorium Acá on a radiorosary. This season we have been talking
about the special jurisdiction for peace andfor today' s episode we will focus
on talking about participation, the appearanceof different SS members of the military forces
in the special jurisdiction for peace,Specifically we will talk about the case of

(01:07):
Ritua, son of the river andwhy the special jurisdiction for peace is now
asking to remove rite away from theRiver Tela Jep before starting this program.
I greet the working table Alejandro,good afternoon, nights from any place in
Colombia as is the danielita well,one more week in territory and with a

(01:30):
very interesting topic that we bring tothe people that hopefully we hear in this
season that we have more seaved andmore seado the he and the different analyses
that we have done politically that,therefore, have contributed not only to the
program, but to reach to touchthese sensitive topics. Today' s temite

(01:52):
is quite complex. It' sa tringuli there because it causes several resquemors.
But these are themes to be touchedupon. And so if you'
re interested, the subject would alsobe reviewed in instagram with the territory being
swept away. The latest publications wehave made of the friends of Urive specifically

(02:13):
and already anelitate here once again happyto be on this programme very concerned about
what is going on in the country, I believe, the territories once again
plagued by all this conflict that isbecoming more and more difficult and deadly of
Treaty. Thanks to Alejandro, becauseprecisely the situation in the country will give
us to think about next season howto address not only the implementation of the

(02:38):
agreement, but also the Government isdoing to address the armed conflict and the
progress of negotiations with other armed groupsbefore starting this program. We greet Mario,
director of a Rado rosary, andNelson, who always accompanies us in
master auro control, welcome and welcomebelts to the territory. You' re

(03:06):
listening to territory. Territory, OneTerritory, One Territory, One Territory,
as I was commenting on at thebeginning of the program. This season we
have focused on talking about special jurisdictionfor peace, and today we bring the

(03:28):
case of Rito Alejo del Río,which in its time in the 1990s,
was known as the peacemaker of theanti- okey hurricane Rito Far from the
River was a commander of the 17thBrigade of the National Army and during the
1990s was flattered by many Colombian politicians, including former presidentÁlvaro Urido de Beles.

(03:50):
However, the case of Territo Alejodel Río, like that of many
other members of the Colombian military forces, has resulted in or have links with
the paramilitars and act with them indifferent municipalities of the country. Hence,
it is also being investigated for theMapiri Pan massacre and the murder of the

(04:13):
social leader of the country, MarinoLópez, in nineteen hundred and ninety-
seven. So, to start withthe questions of this program, Alejandro what
do you think of the participation ofthe military in the special jurisdiction for peace,
beyond the debate that there was atthe time about why they were being
judged in the same court as theex- FARK fighters and what is the

(04:38):
importance of attending to these scenarios ofcompa? Where military instincts are appearing and
what discussions bring us about how truthis built and the victims' right to
the truth. That is a veryprofound debate, Daniela, because if one
stayed at least at the first moment, thinking that the hep and all the

(05:01):
aparatage of the integral system, ofthe justice of reparation and non- repetition
are oriented only to the signatories and, obviously, to the guarantee of the
truth, since to compensate and repairthe victims, for one would say no,
because to let us enter there now, as we have said, already,

(05:21):
I do not know how many programsand during these three years that we
carry the territory, the Colombian conflictis a conflict that is very porous,
it includes multiple actors and presents enormouscomplexities to do its analysis and I believe
that it is a great victory forthe victims that a person like these,

(05:47):
because it makes part of all theaparatage, because it is a person who,
in short, can contribute with thiswhole subject of the truth and because
the reparation of big ones is true. Of course, there will be many
who say that I even know thatthere are legal debates around the subject,
but it is also true that andalready to enter and land on this whole

(06:10):
issue of rite away from the river. It is also true that once a
person asks to enter or enters theheb he is obliged to contribute to the
truth, i e he accepts anobligation to gad and therefore has to contribute
to the truth in the various subjectsthat he can contribute. But also,
on the different issues that are beinginvestigated by the JEB And what happens then

(06:32):
when people ask people to enter,because obviously it implies the recognition of some
benefits compared to ordinary justice, whichwe also mentioned there before, what happens
then if asked to enter the GEBbut it does not contribute. First,

(06:53):
I think I' m going tobreak it into two issues. So let
' s say, institutionally it generatesa slowdown, that lost effort, lost
money. We already know that peoplehave a temporality and that we are basically
at a disadvantage to achieve everything thatwas proposed as a goal at the time
the agreement was signed. And secondly, because the victims who have been so

(07:15):
beaten up also by the institutional sideand have thus had so many obstacles in
terms of what could be recognized asfreedom and also to compensate for all that
has generated them the pflict. Becausewe say it or again I say it,
we would have to get to protectpeople to ensure first, that these

(07:38):
people who enter contribute with what theyhave to contribute and, second, that
the victims feel the impact of theparticipation of these people. If not,
then we wouldn' t be likethat, I think we' re wasting
time and money and the possibility thatmany, many of the actions of the

(07:58):
people I don' t know ifit' s right, but many of
the actions of these people within thepuply pass from crouching. Basically, they
can never really know what happened totheir loved ones. There is a very
important question, and it is thereal commitment of those who are going to
appear before the special jurisdiction for peace. This is a debate that not only
occurs in the case of the militarywho are appearing at this time, but

(08:22):
also in the case of former PARKcombatants in this regard. At different times,
the different recognition rooms have made commentsor at the time it was also
a debate and that had some implicationsin the process as to how far former
FARK fighters and more sharply, theformer FARK ex- secretary was actually contributing

(08:43):
to the truth and recognizing its responsibilityin different facts. This also translates into
the case of former members of thesecurity forces. But there is an aggravating
factor here, which is that inmany scenarios or many of the cases being
investigated had in one way or anotheradvances in ordinary justice. Then this with

(09:07):
data to two thousand and twenty,already to two thousand and twenty, already
nine hundred and twenty persons belonging tothe security forces had already been convicted by
the ordinary justice system for crimes committedin the context of the armed conflict.
And what we' ve seen withsome, because that' s true,
we have to recognize it, it' s not all that they ask to

(09:30):
enter special jurisdiction for peace, andI would dare say clearly it' s
not that it' s on paper, but I would dare say that that
request to enter special jurisdiction for peaceis to make them take away the sentences
they already had for the trials withinordinary justice. And that would seem concretely
in the case of Rito away fromthe River. When there is no commitment

(09:52):
to truth and recognition, then whywere they asking for clues to enter the
hef if there is really no intentionof recognizing and contributing to the right to
quadrantize the right of victims of thearmed conflict to truth, justice, reparation
and non- repetition. To that, Alejandro Zumel imagine in a scenario where

(10:13):
there is every intention to contribute,but former President Alvaro Uribe goes out to
say that it is the HEB thatis what motivates members or ex- members
of the security forces to recognize crimesthat have not committed special jurisdiction for peace.
At no time are attempts being madeto commit crimes by one or the
other high command of the military forces, but they are also based on evidence

(10:37):
and testimonies that even other persons belongingto the security forces or at the time
belonged to them, have given testimoniesand have given the names of those most
responsible. So, this also hasa process of investigation that before the declarations
of those of former President Alvaro Uribe, because they simply make the work of
the special jurisdiction for peace look tainted, goes to the side and is questioned

(11:01):
without any foundation, and specifically inthe case of Rito Alejo del Río,
since it already leads to say thatit is not new to its participation in
the special jurisdiction for peace, Butit is new that in the last few
weeks it has been requested by JudgeGustavo Salazar, who is the co-
rapporteur of case Six, who investigatesthe extermination of members of the patriotic union,

(11:24):
asked that he be revoked the benefitof the transitional and conditioned freedom that
he has at this ritual moment sonof the river, and that freedom was
granted to him to avail himself ofthe special jurisdiction for peace. He is
not yet being asked to leave thespecial jurisdiction for peace, but is seeking
to revoke his transitional freedom, whichis also happening in the case of former

(11:46):
General Santoyo, who has also notcontributed to the truth. Thus, for
the recognition rooms it is important thatthose who decide to appear make significant and
significant contributions repeat what they have alreadysaid in other instances, but also that
these contributions are novel that allow toclarify in this case, in this specific

(12:11):
case, the six, which isthat of the extermination of members of the
Patriotic Union, and also the eightcase. If I am not wrong about
the violence in the Uragua, Ibelieve that now, listening to it itself,
I will think several things. Daniel, there is a good clever people
who, without a doubt, Ithink were opposed to the whole system of
truth justi in its time is reparationand repetition and who today want to enter

(12:37):
it what they decide to do,because obviously it represents a benefit, for
example, since such a freedom istransitory, it is using institutionality once again
fadoso. But for the case ofGod' s ritualism, specifically that,
like you well, Luis, he' s well into the whole macro thing.

(12:58):
Case six, then, Daniela,is offensive that a person of these
who participated and it is already knownthat he participated because he was already judged
for that reason that he participated inthe extermination in the same ones of the
patriotic tin, to say, thathe made use of the state apparatus to

(13:20):
incur this extermination, which, moreover, was a systematic practice of the Colombian
State, since it is not sumlike what is first, that is,
as a we are no longer talkingabout that old justice. Not then,
it' s not because he's been condemned to anything. It should
be assumed as a première, not, but should be assumed, at least

(13:41):
philosophically, as an actor with greatcontribution power for the reconstruction of the facts,
for the truth and for that reasonall that was left in the agreement.
Then these people, like the otherlittle friend, urige the jump of
me, because ready, they arein the people against wind and tide.
I think it was a big breakthroughthat they managed to get into them and,

(14:09):
because it is self- identified asthe actors in quotation marks that can
contribute. It would be pretty good, but then, until when this hand
is going to last, I feellike it' s like we' re
getting our fingers in our mouths andpolitically Daniela, which is what worries me
the most. These people who defendideas of right to some cres who have

(14:31):
made politics with the right people andbecause they are on the right side because
of their paramilitary practices and for sucheven from now on two years, when
we change president and when very surelythe right wins, then where we will
have them, that is, theywill be quite well delivered, because surely
the government that arrives will not havethe intention to protect it. Not even

(14:56):
Petro is doing it now. He' s also getting her in there,
he' s getting her in politics, too. But when we have a
political or right view, because withall the certainty of these people, we
will even see them doing politics,we will even see them free and then
we are putting them at their feetonce again to the state to do it

(15:16):
they want and I find it offensive. I think that, also taking up
the post we did on Instagram lastweek, perhaps for some of our cyber
listeners the question may arise of whywe are making so much mention. First,
what you are saying about right-wing politics, but also that you

(15:37):
have not gone unnoticed in what wehave been recording in this program the name
ofÁlvaro Uribe and that in thiscase I do believe that the position of
the former President to the project thatthe country has in test of peace is
harmful. Of course, he wasone of the strongest detractors during the negotiation
process between Juan Manuel Santos and theFARK guerrilla Anton. But let' s

(16:02):
say that from that moment and sincethe signing of the agreement, what we
see to date is that all itsbasically all its argument against the peace agreement,
is largely built around demeriting the workof the special jurisdiction for peace and,
if not on that side, alsoto say who are those in the
jurisdiction for peace, who are thosemembers of the force of the military forces

(16:25):
that are appearing. I don't know them, I wasn' t
a friend and I' m hereto wash my hands when the links that
you have specifically with the general,with retired general Rito Alejo del Río and
also with retired general Santollo, MauricioSantoyo, are not links that have ever

(16:47):
crossed the road and are no longerstrong links that also show a close relationship,
And not only close, but alsoby testimony from other former members of
the security forces, for if theyhave given indications that former President Alvaro Uribe
was aware of what the military forceswere advancing, not only Alejandro during his

(17:07):
term as president, his two presidentialperiods that is precisely where the figures of
six thousand four hundred two and morefalse positives come out, where in the
peak, the peak of false positivesis between two thousand two and two thousand
eight, but also in his timeas governor of anti- oche. So,
because it' s a Mr Idon' t want to go into

(17:32):
making judgments on this program or onInstagram posts, but I think those hi
leaves us with doubts about what therecord of the former President has been and
also those links that show how inone way or another. And I say
one way or another. But itis that discursively and between the lines,
the expansion and the links of thepublic forces with paramilitarism has also taken hold,

(17:56):
specifically in that case of Rito Alejodel Río test of the mid-
1990s, it was being denounced thatthe then General of the Rio was not
fighting the paramilitaries of the region.That is why they asked him to withdraw
in the late 1990s and in areport from the United States Department of States

(18:18):
he said that this had been speakingsince nineteen ninety- eight about links between
local military commanders and paramilitary groups,where he says they reached tacit agreements in
some regions and the paramilitary groups operatedfreely in some zones under military control.
The authorities assigned two high- rankingofficers who have links with paramilitary groups,

(18:42):
including Brigadier General Rito away from theRojas River. And this is important because
later and in relatively recent statements,former Colonel Carlos Velázquez said that while the
then Governor for Uribe was in theRito governorate away from the river, he

(19:03):
kept him informed of all his actionsin the Uragua, then that the former
President is launching record since the signingof the agreement against the special jurisdiction for
peace, because it puts us tothink. I don' t want to
draw conclusions again, but yes,I do. I think that' s
what we thought was going to happenat his conservatory. Mancuso was going to

(19:25):
learn the fan. I feel likehe' s been a little hung up,
because what we see is that thereare former members of the security forces
who have a lot of information,but that cases like the river' s
runaway, they' re not fullycontributing. They' re not really contributing,
but for nothing anela. I thinkthey' re even contributing. Obviously,

(19:45):
they' re playing with their heads, saving their necks. But when
you decide not to talk, youalready intuit because it' s a hundred
not to. That is, becausethose bonds of friendship, those ties that
are built for you to operate outsidethe Colombian State and to be Russian of
all force in the various operations inwhich they participated for military and military,

(20:11):
since one says clearly those ties reallywhat are being maintained. But, Daniel,
that also happens and this we cannotstop seeing, because where a person
of these decides to learn the fan, to tell everything he knows, the
politics as we know it and thestate as we know it today, would

(20:33):
definitely give a total return, thatis, still, even though we know
that these relations and that the parapoliticsand all this complex subject, because also
the structural aparatism of this is difficultto understand, it is complex, even
though we already know that, becausewe really do not know how far it
goes, that is, with allthe certainty of the Colombian State. There

(20:55):
are many of these people who havenot spoken and others who have passed Agachi
who are surely seeing it today.It goes pretty well to Colombian tax stuff,
with its security schemes, etcetera,etcetera. It' s one,
I' d say, or not. This is the end, but in
short, at least with which theycontribute and freedom, at least they contribute

(21:18):
something, that is, I don' t know if where the mass graves
are, etcetera, etcetera, becausethey would help something now. What'
s going to happen Dani in theother time, with the right in power
and what' s going to happenthen with these people if their friends are
the ones who are going to rulein all safety, they' re going

(21:41):
to give him a political management ofthe heh, as has been done forever,
so that these people take advantage ofthe benefits and almost can even pass
from crouching, as it was mentionedabout Ahorita. I mean, this is
not a holy person. He isa person who is sentenced to twenty-
six years for the murder one daynot chocuan and who also, because he

(22:04):
has a small notebook of notes,crimes and in addition to extermination. So,
politically, what' s coming andaround people is already worrying. That,
on the one hand and on theother, so, uh, well,
I said this before, but wehave the temporality. We' re
having a hard time. Politically,it is most likely that these people will

(22:25):
be benefited, because the wave ofthe right comes again and hopefully the moderate
right, but imagine Anila where afernanda maria ends up sending herself to the
Presidency and saying what will happen thenbut because we also came the whole good
season. Saying in, not allof you hopeful, it is not anticipation,

(22:48):
because it is something you can.I don' t think I can
win anymore, but imagine one personis of that sort as with that ideological
court that is also noso and wheresmart to help smart friends is nothing.
All right, but what' sthe perception this kind of people have about
the victims. And I was alsogetting back at I don' t know

(23:12):
how many programs out there when wetalked about the dead, well, yeah,
and the dead bad, and howeven today in our country there are
people who justify, for example,acting like a person as a ritual.
True how I haven' t seenDaniela even one interview where she comes out
to criticize him, for example,no good, you just go out to

(23:37):
defend yourself and say basically everyone isdelirious except and that' s but look
at that there' s a problem, because you say good, if any
of these people think about turning onthe fan that can happen. Or honestly,
I don' t think this reallyhas consequences on the stage where everyone
is organized to contribute to the truth, to repair the victims, and to

(24:02):
guarantee the victims' right to thetruth. When Mancus begins to ask for
clues in the special jurisdiction for peaceof one of the first people mentioned by
thatÁlvaro Uribe and Alvaro Uribe afterwalking with friends, painting it there Congress,
signing the pact of reality and theagreement of reality, sitting on the

(24:23):
estate to make pacts and agreements and, above all, with everything that is
revealed after the parapolitics. Today hecomes out twenty years after that pact and
from that agreement, he goes outto say that why this criminal is going
to be believed, because he isgoing to believe that lying guy, that
criminal No matter how savage he isa criminal, it is necessary to see

(24:48):
how he is contributing and how heis going to begin to contribute to the
truth now that he is within thespecial jurisdiction for peace But what he has
right now, Alvaro Uribe has apolitical support that I do not continue to
fail to understand very well, buta political support that has few politicians in

(25:11):
the country and few political parties andalso has a discursive force where he has
behind him a hundred thousand echoes.So it doesn' t matter how much
they want to contribute to the truth, No matter how much they rebel with
Uribe going out to say on socialnetworks. That' s a lie that
' s gonna have someone echoing him, and that' s not going to
make him lose his political strength atany time since Uribe left Congress, he

(25:37):
' s been there for a whilequiet like he doesn' t want the
thing. But in the face ofeverything that has happened with the implementation of
the agreement, every statement has drawnsome communiqués, which is that I cannot
say what I really think, becauseif not Mario is going to censor the
program, but they really let ussee the kind of person he is and
that until this person decides to behis life on the peace building bus,

(26:03):
I believe that this country is goingto have to go through many, many,
many decades to really understand what happenedand so that future generations can really
say we are going to build orwe already have a country in peace.
But with this tyre loosen those whoare in power, those who are in
power, how the armed conflict isescalating and if we add to that,

(26:25):
what is contributing to the truth andthat we will not be able to clarify
what happened, because we are notgoing anywhere and that one of the most
important characters of politics is for everyone who wants to say not everyone is
on the mind. I' mright. This is a lie. That
was not so, but and therehave been important advances, because Mario Montoya,
at the time said if we hadstimuli to show results between two thousand

(26:52):
two and two thousand eight and withthat he spent a time. He was
claimed to have passed with the sixthousand four hundred two false, positive and
so forth. But look what hashappened three years after this, that I
have proved it is a figure.Here we go. That says a lot
about what we' re like asColombians. Daniela, that is, when
you get to see one can doan analysis of people through their idols?

(27:18):
No, that is, when youbegin to see the figure of a political
personality like that ofÁlvaro vie Vélez, who also has so many followers and
so many faithful fanatics, without adoubt, a political phenomenon is recognized.
But if you start to see whatkind of person you are and how you
operated in the Colombian state, forexample, when you were in the rule

(27:41):
of Antiopia and protected all the ritualactions away, when you have had so
much information about, not only aboutthe recent conflict or in the eight years
of your mandate, but before thattoo and when you know it today it
is proven, because that is whyif you did not participate directly, that

(28:03):
is why the subject of who sawthe order, well whatever it was,
but you do have the knowledge ofwhat happened and, in fact, let
that happen and it seems even thatthe incentives for the military to engage in
the false positives, because they camefrom right up and only not yet the
one that was so high up,although we have some hypotheses, but that

(28:30):
tells us about Anina, And thatis that sociologically and even anthropologically, Colombia
is still far behind, that isto say, when we are so unable
to question this kind of personalities.See that they even criticize both the figure
of Petro and the messiah, soI don' t know what, but
they themselves have their messiah. Ilive in meat and egg, that'
s true and they accompany him todeath. See even what happens, it

(28:52):
will be what dove violence. Hehad a picture of rin the Sacred Heart
to the land of the Sacred Imagine. That, being even so religious and
with such iconoclast practices, is notin quotation marks. You should make a
sin. But, well, Brivesis allowed everything and forgiven for everything.

(29:15):
And since we are so unable tocriticize those things and recognize them, because
for the average Colombian, because itis always much easier to recognize the difference
as something negative, then we arestill in it in the good dead and
the bad dead. Then the GEPis made up of all guerrillas to the

(29:36):
magistrates. They' re guerrillas.We stay behind mentally and we are behind
being unable to identify that we arenot going to be able to build that
political project we need and these people, because as a ritual I want to
want to love them and believe thatthey want to pave that way for us
to stay there. Then you getto the right again this person can pass

(29:59):
to gache not what it was,but I' m going to let Oribe
just start making noise and you nouswell said the Salvators theme. When he
said he got there and I openedthe voice until that moment was that Uribe
and I don' t talk tocriminals. I don' t believe you
criminals, I don' t knowwhat. And here' s what we
see is that they' re tryingto keep those relationships from touching me that

(30:22):
I don' t touch it.But if at some point Holy I rite
away from the river, You getto say well, I already want to
talk there. Yeah, let's see how they start shaking. We
saw it when they were going tobring Macus the first time and they sent
the Letter in Spanish and they hadto see it sent to English We saw
them shaking Yes, then we wouldhave to see. I think that would

(30:42):
change Colombian politics a lot, too. But today I no longer see at
least a moderate position in which onesays we are improving, we are going
for the camill but it is withsuch a change of pact, with a
revolution. We' re talking abouta revolution. Obviously, it will not

(31:03):
be a social revolution, but asubject like this can revolutionize politics in Colombia.
And see that if that were tohappen right now, we would be
saved from loneliness on the right,because the political profiles, then they would
try to move away, even closerto the center. You can moderate the
thing a little bit and maybe wecould have another country now if they don

(31:26):
' t let it do, thendifficult, Daniela. And if the government
Peter follow the same tonic tail jedthen difficult, Daniela? And if he
wins the right or the other right, then difficult, Daniela? Right,
you' re right, that's too bad. And the short is
right, and it' s thatwe' re actually going back and it

(31:49):
says that I hope they' regetting closer to the center. But now
we are beginning to see who isgoing for the Presidency. One of the
most important figures in the center,in my opinion, Claudia López, and
that Claudia López at the book fair, after her role as a congressman who,
in my opinion, was quite admirable. Everything she said to Uribe since

(32:12):
Congress. There is a question therethat comes out at the book fair,
to say that she respects him verymuch by publishing books on paramilitarism with lion
Valencia. I mean, let's say if you' re fit in
your head, then it' strue that the right is recovering or is

(32:34):
conquering new spaces. I' mnot even sure what it' s going
to be like anymore, but thatthe center falls into some tremendous mistakes and
the word really isn' t mistakes, but by getting in the middle and
getting out of a center. Itis a center that is opposing a political
project of the country focused on theconstruction of peace and that, in fact,

(32:55):
there is a change And in achange only forward, do not say
by analysis definitely is that aniel thatis, in terms of the political marketing
and the reading that it is doingat least at the general level of a
country, is that petro que coolaleft. True, because for some extra

(33:19):
reason, this is how it works, if it works to the left in
this country and knows that between them, because they are finished, it is
a fragmented left, it does notconsolidate, nothing, blablablabla. Let'
s say everyone understands that the lefthad a cartridge and that cartridge burned it
po. But true, we know, Daniela also by association, that the

(33:40):
majority of Colombians are right- wing. I' m not talking about them
being central democracy. We are nottalking about the fact that the Colombian is
usually a traditionalist, an institutionalist,a bit reactionary, because to change,
a little bit of that need forauthority. Right, and then what are

(34:05):
you doing? Claudia, how easy? He' s making it easy.
It' s good. Yeah,first yapett then I threw him out of
my mayor' s room and Ithrew him a little time and then,
as I threw him, then Ihave to pick up the fruits and suddenly
it' s salty until I touchthe right. They' re gonna help
me now. You and I,Daniela, know she' s not going

(34:25):
to win, right, but wealso know that she, doing that kind
of thing, can get to holda position in the state, because the
right, because it comes a littlerenewed. They already understood that the cartridge
that Gato Pedro spent, as itwas a warning. Yeah, so they
' re going to say let's moderate ourselves a little bit over there

(34:45):
and we' re going to getthese kind of people in or suddenly it
doesn' t even moderate or justpull harder and tell them out. Don
' t go outside. But independently, it' s Claudia' s theme
that' s coming, because it' s going to follow the same trend
here, Colombia. You put yourselfto another person who self- declares center
and are right- wing people,right, but a right then, obviously

(35:06):
moderate. You know what I thinkis really regrettable and what was seen not
only in the regional elections, butalso in the presidential and congressional elections.
I believe that people may be ina moderate position, but not have that
lack of self- criticism so greatthat it tarnishes many politicians and many parties,

(35:28):
and that speech that has permeated theelections in recent years of neither Petro
nor Uribe to me seems regrettable,because I think that leaves that there is
a lack of awareness and also whatthe role of both has been, and
not only to pope in terms ofwhat they have brought to the country,
but when we are also in ascenario of upsurge, violence and so on,

(35:52):
that neither Petrionni Uribe in truth,truth, truth. That' s
deep down, I prefer Uribe,which I prefer Petro. That is what
they are saying, because there wesee how some who claim to be central
are behind Oribe in one way oranother, applauding him for the speeches he
has and that are not speeches.It is that I wish, if only
I went out to say what theyare saying, lies I wish it were

(36:16):
just that, but the project promotedbyÁlvaro uribe really reproduces a discourse that
is dangerous, that is dangerous andthat supports suspicious behaviors. I do not
want to dare here to say theword that I am thinking, but yes,
to vacate certain behaviors, to vacatecertain links and to vacate a project

(36:37):
for the military that spread mainly inthe nineties through different areas of the country.
It shows of it and within thoselinks that he says today do not
know and that who is rite awayfrom the river and who is Salvatore Mancuso
better said, he does not knowwho he is. No one knows,
he did not see, I didnot go behind his back, as another
former president said at the time outthere, in nineteen hundred ninety- nine,

(37:01):
when Rita is asked to retire awayfrom the river, different politicians and
businessmen, among thoseÁlvaro Uribe,pay homage to him at the hotel that
he was in Bogotá, more than1, 500 people. Listen to this,
more than 1, 500 people payingtribute to a person who was already

(37:22):
being investigated for military ties and whowere not anyone' s investigations were also
investigating facts and there were grounds fordrawing conclusions at the time. Within that
tribute, who took the floor andwho gave part of the speech was the
former president ofÁlvaro Uribe, whothen attended this event as former governor of

(37:44):
Antiochie and catalogued the event as aprotest tribute, giving him the support to
the former general rite far away fromthe river. Moreover, he said or
said no one better than General delRio understood that you prayed and arrived at
the time of peace. Hence thenickname of the peacemaker, the State,

(38:04):
the citizenship and the faith that advancednotably and also everywhere was the present,
the discreet and effective accompaniment of theGeneral of the River, there alluding to
his time as governor, while Ritualejodel Río was in the Uraba. And
finally, what bad retribution does itgive to the State of generals inspired by
the love of the homeland, imaginethat in the love of the homeland with

(38:28):
the circumstances separates those of its institutionproduced in a context that makes the act
presume as a moral sanction for violationof human rights without a formula of judgment
and creating the unfair risk that thenew international courts will indicate them to be
perpetrators of crimes against humanity. Thecontext of these words also arises when the
jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court istaken up. Therefore, it is a

(38:52):
moment that I have not only beensaying very applauding rite away from the noise,
but that this gentleman has also goneagainst the treaties of internationalation that seek
to be guarantors and also seek toseek the crimes of dehumanity and the great
violations of human rights and that suchspeeches, of course today, do not
reproduce with the same words, butin other ways, that what they do

(39:13):
is to seek that the military forcesact in one way or another, as
well as the words that he saidin days past at the University of La
Sabana. If Daniela sees that onecan know a society a lot from her
idols, imagine this person in anevent organized for her with 1, 500

(39:37):
fervent followers, followers, who becauseit is rather like a horse retrace,
because in closed eyes they go faceto face, do not question, do
not, no yes, that typeof behavior, Daniela, we will not
yet overcome it. Fair enough.That' s what I mentioned before,
and we' re still very excited. And I think, Daniela, by

(40:01):
the way the world moves, thatthat political maturity is hardly going to come,
especially because there is a lot ofpaw now politically, from the oldest
to the youngest. There is alot of disinterest in the political issue.
I, Daniela, if we do, if we go out on the street
to do a poll, I betyou very few people know who' s

(40:24):
ritualizing the river. Very few peopleand very few people recognize the value of
a person' s testimony in thisseries, because they don' t even
know what it is to be honest, true and that ignorance that makes it
is to work the way for themto pass justice through the cookie, to

(40:44):
pass them over to the victims throughthe cookie, to continue covering up the
hidden ones over the years. Howlong have you been taking this person?
Presa already a little time when thisperson has been operating Imagine if he had
participated in the patriot' s formerterm, if he was working, when
he lives, when he was governor, how much damage this person did to

(41:09):
the country and still how it isthat the followers do not see him or
say, do not see or categorizehim as a hero. He' s
a poor little leg hero. He' s a martyr, it' s
true, he' s a martyrwho had to kill some people to build
a better country. Which better countrywill blame Pedro' s four years.

(41:30):
I don' t think they're so brazen if it' s the
country they dedicated themselves to building recentlyand I know that we' re going
out and going into it, butPopán does and he talked to a person
who said they can say whatever theywant, but Uribe' s eight years
were the sixth most eight years inone of the municipalities of Valle del Cabo

(41:52):
and I asked him yes, butat what cost it is true, then
how many six, four hundred andtwo more we' re going to put
for that security. True, howmany more are going to appear with their
boots turned, how many more mother- in- laws are going to take
away their children. Yeah, sothat doesn' t really matter, because
the average Colombian' s thinking oranything. He' s very short,

(42:15):
he' s a placist, he' s very arribist, he' s
very close to his own nose.We never care about Colombian territories. As
I can get out of my house, as they are no longer dropping bombs
here half a square from my house, as I can already go to the
estate. It was the speech,because everything is fine, right, my
world is fine. But it turnsout Daniela that what we see today and

(42:39):
the escalation of the conflict is preciselythe indicator that the country they wanted to
build could not build it as theywanted and that they definitely left even more
violent bases, a much broader knowledgeof the conflict on the part of the
armed actors and, surely, alsoa continuous collaboration of the State with the

(43:01):
groups that are currently holding back theconflict. And I' m not saying
that Petro collaborates with them. No, but we do know that politics and
organized groups that are today in thedynamics of the conflict, because they have
a close relationship and see that todayeven when I remember, not last year
or something like that. I wasasking why nothing two years ago, maybe

(43:23):
because nobody talks about Mexican cartels inColombia, but he' s not going
to do it rarely either. Butthe incidence of Mexican cartels here in the
Valley and Cabo, in northern Cauca, in Nariño, is a real incidence.
Moreover, there are municipalities where peoplesay there are already people talking a

(43:44):
Mexican all the time. So theterritorial dynamics are changing and taking advantage of
the weakness of the country, thatof the country skill that we have built
as a citizen. And that's very sad. And we see the
territories today, Daniela, and becauseI don' t know at least I
don' t know you know thatI' m not very close to the

(44:07):
forces, to the military. But, then, the conflict is becoming more
severe, because let us increase ourstrength. I' ve already said this.
I don' t know how manyprograms, if I don' t
like to say it, but withthe people who are here today, there
is no longer a chance to negotiate. And if we' re going to
negotiate, then we' re goingto negotiate. But until we get to

(44:28):
something, then we' re goingto keep getting good at it. But
in the cauca they bomb every day. There you go again to the police
stations. So what does the Colombianthink as I do of course that or,
because I don' t know theColombian will promise not that we have
to kill them all, that theygive them bullets, that I don'
t know what, because people alsoget tired. So we don' t

(44:51):
have a real chance of getting outof the conflict here. It' s
that you have to kill them oryou have to put them in the cassal
We' re going to have thesame scar always because it' s already
just getting tired and the state's inability to get there. Well,
what you prefer to see is thatbefore that impossibility of the state, I

(45:12):
think it' s much easier forspeeches to continue to be reproduced like those
coming from the beginning of the twothousand and that I think that' s
what' s happening right now.I mean, right now I was setting
the example of safety and that peoplecould go back to the estate, see
how I thought that was like thatsaying was a joke, until I really
heard it from two people to givethat argument. I said I can'

(45:37):
t believe it. But it's also a security speech. Of not
a security, it is not anotion of security for the country, nor
to build a country we want,but it is a security for a few
at the expense of whatever, andnot as some have said, which are
side effects, but at the expenseof whatever. If you have to go
over people, you go over people. If this has to charge many ways,

(46:00):
many ways are charged, but thenunreal people. Unfortunately, those who
have the power will continue to reproducethese security speeches. It has cost absolutely
everything and that in the political momentthat we are living, in the context
of violence, of the increase ofviolence, because this will take strength and
I do not want to be pessimisticand I do not want to advance,

(46:22):
but I believe that it will determinehow the elections are configured? How are
the elections configured? For two years, if we are being configured from this
moment, but also that this willlead to different groups resurrecting in the Colombian
territories. Let' s hope not, Alejandro, we' re running out

(46:43):
of time. I don' tknow if you' d like to add
anything else before closing. Yes,Daniela, first of all, that the
chacha of this one is very good, but all this chacha given to say
and re- enter the issue ofchallenge Alejo, to say that what is
going to happen, that is,what is already happening in the territories,
all this increase and, moreover,the imminent advance also of the common crime

(47:09):
and all of those structures that arein the prisons. Well, what happens
in Colombia. We are not justtalking about the rural, but it is
also urban. It will start againto justify the unjustifiable if we do not
manage to contain what is happening,that is, from now on four years,
Dalina, the paramilitaries, will continueagain, It will start again a

(47:31):
collaboration on the part of the State. More rites will appear, rites far
away from the river. And wewill continue to justify them, because then
the peacemakers, yes, you saidthe collaterals, the people who say that
was, that is, six thousandfour hundred two collaterals and more six thousand
four hundred two and more than weknow so far. No And these people

(47:54):
who have the information of how manyreally are, because very probably it will
never be, but we will continueto justify the appearance of these people and
then we will martyr them and thatpoor little ones only received orders. We
have already experienced this in history,not only in Colombia, many parts of
the world and these kinds of charactersare nefarious. And today everyone knows they

(48:16):
' re terrible. And yet knowingit, they justify it, they help
it, they put the institutions attheir feet. Then it' s anela
' s worry. I think thejob that comes along is probably what I
' m telling you to be impossible. We must pre- empt the advance
of the conflict. Surely it isimpossible, but the job does have to

(48:37):
be, at least a political qualification, to sit down and read who these
people are, what they did,at least if I am going to support
it, at least support it withknowledge of the cause. But many of
the people who support them don't even know who are learned political behaviors,
which are harmful and take away allthe possibility of building my best country.

(49:00):
Actually, in these programs, Iget more and more hope if it
' s as Laje is moving forward. That really has some effect on society
and also on how we started toshape politically from here to the elections,
that is, from today to twoyears we will have elected president. It

(49:22):
' s probably over the first roundby now. Then I wish, I
wish. I believe that what thejurisdiction studies for peace can do between now
and December. I' m notsaying it' s really going to have
any impact, but hopefully, sobe it, and hopefully, the people
who are right now appearing among thespecial jurisdiction for peace and encourage talking about

(49:43):
it. Alejandro would close for today. I thank you very much for joining
me on this show. Thanks alsoto Mario, director of bu Rosario Radio,
and Nelson, who accompanies us atthe Master' s Control. We
hear each other in an upcoming episodeon the back of mule chalupa, campero,

(50:15):
motorcycle or plane. We traveled Colombiafrom south to north and from east
to west. Its inhabitants plotted withtemple and barrack the abandonment and changes of
their territories. Thank you for gettingon the territorializing ship and having accompanied us
this journey through the land of oblivionSage Radio A presented Territorium