Temporada 2 sold out

En el último episodio de nuestra segunda temporada la nave territorializadora recoge los grandes debates que se han suscitado alrededor de la Jurisdicción Especial para la Paz, sobre la posición del gobierno Petro, de los firmantes y de las víctimas. Abróchese los cinturones y acompáñenos en este gran final de temporada... Y prepárese para lo que viene.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
At the back of Bula in Chalupa, motorcycle camper or plane. Colombia is

(00:05):
traveled from south to north and fromeast to west. Its inhabitants glimpse the
abandonment and changes of their territories.In this season get on the territorializing craft
and accompanied on this trip through theland of the Oblivion or Rosario Radio presents

(00:42):
Territory hello to all and welcome tothe last episode of the second season of
Territorium Acá on a Rosario Radio onthe institutional station of the University of Rosario.
This season we have been talking aboutthe special jurisdiction for peace and some
tensions that jurisdiction has had with thecurrent Government and peace signatories. Before starting
this program, I want to sayhello to the work table so far away

(01:06):
good morning, evening nights wherever youare as you have been welcome, Danielita,
very good days. I' mfine. I hope you' re
okay, too. The first thingis to set the precedent for what comes
next season. And once we visait territory, it comes with next season.

(01:26):
Let the President worry about what ishappening in the south west of the
country, especially in the department ofCauca and in some municipalities of the valley.
And we should see what this hasto do with the next elections,
which, even though they are divilifiedfar away, are closer to what we

(01:46):
believe. In fact, we alreadysee, like many of the traditional politicians,
if the new ones have already begunto shape, to occupy, then
the kurules. Then also see whatthe role of the Government will be.
But that, despite what we allthought was the call of hope, we
see that politics still has an impacton the resurgence of conflict. We need

(02:09):
to clarify everything that is happening,because it is definitely not clear what the
teams are, hear me this Daniela, which groups are operating who are financing
them, obviously, because there isa tendency to be financed by drug trafficking.

(02:30):
But beyond that, we should seewhat the relationship these groups have with
the political sphere is, to seeif we are again in a phenomenon similar
to political fart or political or allthe policies we have had then simply to
leave that President of Daniela. Veryhappy to be here again with you on

(02:51):
our ninety- three show. Ifwe do not fail the accounts, it
is already almost three months recording withsome interruptions, obviously, with some comings
and goings, some changes in theformat also from radio to podcast and without
a member that began with us,that we remember therefore with much love and

(03:14):
that we still miss. We hopethat at some point our paths will cross
again and also cross through the cabinsof territory and for the people who listen
to us, recommend them to listento all the ninety- two programs prior
to this one or those that interestthem and also remind them that they can
follow us with the territory on Instagramand also through the ROSA, through the

(03:37):
social networks of bu Rosario Radio.And also give a special greeting to Mario,
the director of the Issue, andNelson Duarte, who always accompanies us
in master' s control. Thankyou, Aleandro, for that greeting and
also for that opening up the currentpanorama that we have and opening up a
little bit of the discussion that weare going to have today in this closing

(04:00):
on the special jurisdiction for peace.Before starting, open the welcome belts and
welcome to normal territory connects and lands. The territory rum a territory, a

(04:34):
territory, a territory, a territory. Alejandro started this episode by putting a
little bit of the country' spanorama, the situation of violence that is

(04:55):
being experienced around the country, butalso the challenges that the Government is currently
facing, not only in view ofthe situation of violence, but also the
political tensions that have been built,the opposition it has encountered to implement the
reforms and, specifically in relation tothis programme, the tensions that have been
created with the implementation of the peaceagreement, but especially the statements that the

(05:19):
President and former Foreign Minister Alvaro Leivahave had regarding the work of the special
jurisdiction for peace. Within these discussions, I think a very important point has
been the discussion that we had herein the program that we had during this
season, almost in three episodes,about the idea of having a closing court
and how problematic this could be forthe construction of truth and to give the

(05:42):
victims the guarantee of truth, justice, reparation and non- repetition. In
that vein, we started this seasonby explaining those tensions of the Government,
but also of the peace signatories ina letter they sent to the President where
they basically said more words less,that the special jurisdiction for peace had moved

(06:02):
away from their mission and that atthis moment they were in legal uncertainty regarding
the proceedings they were taking in thisTribunal. The discussion we had during this
episode is that of course it givesa very important question about temporality and whether
jurisdiction is really going to be ablein the time it has left to complete

(06:24):
its entire task, but also tothink a little that, and we talked
about it above all in the lastprogram, it seems that sometimes the peace
signatories would like to nuance those conclusions, that the jurisdiction has begun to launch
and how damaging this begins to doat a time where it is determining,
to begin to demand that all thepeople who are appearing to you with special

(06:46):
jurisdiction for peace really commit themselves tothe truth. Yeah, Daniela, it
' s like we said on thatshow and in several. I think that
throughout this season, because they aredebates that focus on the philosophical, on
the legal, on the political,on the social, different spheres, but
that, obviously, what they aredemonstrating is that the institutionality of the integral

(07:11):
system of justice, reparation and non- repetition, including the GEB, has
faced countless obstacles first, and hasalso faced the different positions that come when
changes of government occur. And ifwe think of the temporality that is at

(07:32):
two thousand thirty- five, andwe also imagine ourselves in a scenario in
which Petro is going to come outand probably not very well standing, where
there is an upturn of the right- wing sectors, either from the center
to its extreme, because the concernsare urgent. First of all and beyond

(07:53):
urgent we are referred to the moralschemes of Colombians. And this I say
Daniela, why the discourses of nshate this whole subject of prejudices that are
even between us between classes, thesubject of how we are observing minorities,
of how we rant against each other, because the only thing that is showing

(08:13):
us is that we are definitely empty, because we are weak. We are
still on a path in search ofmaturity that will probably not arrive very soon
and that will probably arrive when somefour or five more generations have passed.
So, those philosophical debates and thosemedia debates, those blows of opinion that

(08:37):
have taken place around all of this, all they have done is drive the
victims away from achieving that, whichthey have so longed for and it is
at least a little bit or bitea little bit the cake of truth.
Why, because there is this manoeuvringthat because the change of government, that
why the guerrillas, that why xjzthe Colombian always is of the why of

(08:58):
little proposal. But the victims todaycontinue to claim and more complex becomes Daniela,
and this we talked about also whenthe same signatories have thrown satires and
have also devoted a little to despoturingthe missionaryity of the ageb only in terms

(09:20):
of what they have delayed to judge, to be judged themselves. So,
as one Anila already says, thesituation has become more complex than we would
have expected or what we would haveexpected. When the petro government of Colombia,
the world power of life, andthe government of hope set up where

(09:41):
it is today and also that government, because as you said very well,
they have been responsible for throwing thesame satires at it and it is potrifying
against this institutionality. With that yousay, I believe that there is an
elementary question in all this discussion thatnot only applies to see what the future
will be that holds special jurisdiction forpeace, but to generate the peace agreement,

(10:03):
to the implementation of the peace agreement, which is also there tottering,
and it is how we build peaceand who is responsible for this various responsibility
during this season, I believe thatalso in past episodes of when we have
the radio program and the previous season, one of the things that we have
insisted on a lot is to surroundthe agreement, but also specifically to surround

(10:28):
the special jurisdiction for peace. Andwe insisted on this because there are not
only the detractors of the agreement thatwe have already been super insistent. Also,
since the elections of two thousand andeighteen, they have committed themselves to
destroy the agreement. The Government ofIgán Duque did everything that was also available
to hinder its implementation, and theCongress in the first year, in the

(10:48):
two thousand and eighteen, dedicated itselfto lock and lock and lock the tramis
and that, indeed, led toa destruction of one way or another of
the agreement. And how about thatdesire for a bus of peace that started
in the two thousand sixteen, throughoutthe whole country. And, on top
of that, well, we saidsmart we came from this government. This

(11:09):
new government of Gustavo Petro was supposedto be the government that was going to
embrace the implementation of the peace agreement. And what we see is that not
only are there detractors of the agreement, but the same peace signatories, the
same government that said it was goingto commit to peace, have taken care
not even of wishing it was justto launch criticisms that one says. Well,
the criticisms I think are valid atany time, because no way to

(11:31):
do the job and more when we' re thinking about peace building, you
can do the right way. Theyare not criticisms, but they are throwing
out ideas such as that they donot serve and a better saying as if
the idea of building peace valid waswhat the Government wants to propose through the
idea of total peace. And itseems to me that this is also a

(11:52):
wrong vision, but it was alsoagainst the progress that has already been made
towards peace. There' s anagreement, there' s some peace signatories.
That talking about peace signatories is notonly because there is a commitment,
but it is a political commitment tore- entering civilian life and there are
all efforts that must be fulfilled,of course, that guarantees must be demanded

(12:13):
for the rope. But that commitmentis also to be seen and it will
not seek to castigate the progress thathas been made by the jurisdiction. That,
on the one hand, is thatcommitment which is fundamental and whether it
is two years from now that theGovernment ends. The government does not,
indeed, take the reins of theimplementation of the agreement and the signatories resume
that commitment, and that commitment tojurisdiction, particularly, because we are not

(12:37):
going anywhere. But the question isalso how the rest of the people who
live in this country are going tocontribute to that peace building. And what
we see is that here, whenwe talk about peace and agreement or final
peace agreement, we continue to stigmatizethem, we continue to impose categories on
the subjects, we continue to sayno there are those who have to pay

(13:00):
sentences and on this side we areothers. And it' s no longer
a priority. In fact, lastweek, the Common Party, which is
one of the political parties and movementsthat is the result of final disagreement,
are communicated by the media that,please, will stop referring to them as
reinserted people, such as x FARKand that they use the signatories of peace,

(13:22):
precisely because of the connotation of thecommitment that this has and that one
would say ready. That' snot his handlebar. But really, if
we are, it is those smallactions and those small provisions that also come
from the media that contribute to peace. Or in another one of the examples
I can think of. Right now, last week was a super- media

(13:43):
interview that God Saves Mancuso and theCongressmen of the Democratic Center. I think
the cyber- lists will say,but why do they become a democratic center,
because they have been the main attractorsand have straw tails. All you
have to say goes out and fillstheir mouths saying that it is that with
Álvaro Urio they did pay jail andthat here, with the final agreement they

(14:03):
are doing absolutely no one. Theyare in impunity and it is a wish
to think that prison is the onlyway to achieve justice. But there we
must also make correction in terms.The people who demobilized in the framework of
the agreement of reality in the twothousand five, in Law No seventy-
five of Justice and Peace, didnot pay jails for the crimes of lesomania,

(14:26):
war crimes. They were extradited tothe United States to pay for drug
trafficking offences. So this is notthat any penalty is worth, not because
that payment of that cundena in theUnited States. It did not bring with
it the truth that it is reallywhat serves the victims and finally, what
is going to make us move forwardas a society and really bet on a

(14:48):
country for the construction of a pass. To me, what all this has
shown me, Daniela is that weare a country still very full of contradictions,
where just or justified the unjustifiable andwhere, as we said over there,
very early in the territory, thereare still good deaths and bad deaths.

(15:11):
There are still justifications that are veryattracted, therefore, from the hair,
very brought from the hair, becausewhen one speaks with people who have
any world of opinions, the firstthing that one can notice is that they
justify the fact of the penalties thatwere given to the former paramilitaries, who

(15:35):
accepted the agreement of realito, sayingthat at least they paid jail and that
I do not know what and that, at least that process is mobilization,
was very good and that, insome way or other, those who have
been dating have been successfully reintegrated intocivil society. But the truth is that
this has not happened from any perspective. That is, it is obvious that

(16:02):
Colombia did a negotiation obviously when theformer President ofÁlvaro Urio was leaving,
where these people definitely did not takecharge of the crimes of dehumanity that they
committed in the Colombian territories. Theynever responded to the victims, never contributed
to the truth. And so itis that just this year and until last
year the bodies of the mass gravesare still exhumanized. We realized they had

(16:29):
crematoriums. In other words, youunderstand the fear they feel when Salvatore manclusus
speaks because they literally start to trembleand Daniela. These are figures that we
included in this season. Over therewe have the maze of Salvatore, the
labyrinth of the Alejo Earth. Thesechapters are very telling, because the future

(16:52):
of our country is also going todepend on the contribution that these people make
to the truth and, therefore,the victims, that is, the day
that Ri Far away is seen tolight the fan, that I doubt Daniela
very much, because it is evidentthat he continues to protect his friends and
that his friends protect him. Butif in the hypothetical case of the ventilator

(17:14):
coming through, we will surely knowmany more things that were hidden in the
demobilization process of two thousand and five. Worse yet, Daniela, when we
have people like Salvatorio Mancuso who wantto talk and who because in quotation marks,
one would believe that he is committed, because in fact, he has

(17:37):
accepted everything that has been imposed onhim in terms of Colombian justice, paid
in the United States and was extravitedto Colombia again. That' s where
you say these characters that have beenso nefarious, because there would be no
other qualifier for them. These characterswho have done so much damage to the
country today can contribute enormously to thevictims. And that' s the change

(18:00):
in the rationality of justice that we' ve been talking about this whole season,
that is, when you ask forpeace. It is clear that we
will not all agree on our conceptionof peace. But, Daniela, it
is sad and worrying to see thatColombians continue to be very violent, that

(18:21):
we believe that the only way toachieve peace is with more violence. And
we don' t realize that weare perpetuating these cycles and these centuries every
time and we don' t realizethat, as we perpetuate them, we
are feeding this victimization machine more generationsand more generations of victims, more generations

(18:41):
of relatives who will never know whathappened to their missing relatives, with their
relatives forcibly recruited or enslaved, whichwas also one of the debates that we
had most of their family members rapedand forced to abort. So, this
is when more debates and more concernsarise for what is coming. There is

(19:04):
something additional, in addition to whatyou point out of violence, and it
is that I am left with alaw impression that the propaganda that was made
against or in favor of the noin the two thousand sixteen, which was
also proved later, that it wasa propaganda plagued with lies and that they
were spread mainly in the most conservativesectors of society, that they brought even

(19:27):
the Catholic and paradoxical church, asyou said, especially in a country so
believing and that speaks and above alla religion that speaks so much of forgiveness,
but well, that will be foranother podcast. To me it seems
very paradoxical that, to date,and having been proven how different sectors of
society were manipulated and how that campaignwas built in favor of no. Today,

(19:51):
many of the lies that were toldin the two thousand sixteen prior to
October 2nd are still being reproduced andrepeated, and I find it extremely worrying
because they are not only the elitesand not only the political sectors, but
also the media to a play ona narrative, as if the government of

(20:12):
Juan Manuel Santos had taken out thepeace agreement in a package of popes and
they forget that this was a processthat started since he came to the presidency
and that there had even been rapprochementsbetween the former FARC guerrillas and the government
ofÁlvaro Uribe Vélez. But thiswas not, it was in an agreement

(20:36):
that cost the country a lot,and not only in economic terms, but
demanded a lot of efforts, butalso an important international Bedouinry, and that
is international wisdom. Of course,for some, these international organizations are sometimes
a greeting to the flag. Thattoo, I think, may be a
point of discussion. But it isbasically based on those international organizations, because

(21:00):
Colombia could not have gone ahead withthe peace process precisely because of those pacts
that have been signed, because ofthose agreements that the country has signed with
regard to the fact that the crimesof dehumanity and war crimes within the Rome
Statute and the International Criminal Court cannotbe left to impunity. Then there has

(21:21):
also been an acceptance by the internationalcommunity, also in one of the episodes,
in the fifth episode of this season, we talked about that role of
the International Criminal Court, about thevisit of the Prosecutor of the International Criminal
Court, Karin Kan, and howthat position of the International Criminal Court has
been a little bit about the approachof the Peace Agreement first and now regarding

(21:44):
its implementation and the progress of thatjurisdiction. So there' s a bunch
of efforts and there' s different, there' s different organisms that are
saying that this works. And finally, the case of Colombia is a novel
case here in this millennium. Besides, it' s a new case.
It is also a case that comes, that has a very particular attention,

(22:07):
and that is that what the courtcases show us, for example, in
the cone of its Latin Americans,is a transition from dictatorial processes to democracy.
Here we do not then enter alot of grey areas, of nuances
where it is not clear to pointout who are the good and the bad
factors. We also discussed the violencea little bit horizontally, of which now

(22:33):
the professor or anoresque of the Universityof the Andes. So it' s
a very, very, very stressfulcomplete process. But where they are saying,
Colombia is doing well and is movingforward because of course we have to
sacrifice some things to win others,and I believe that in this case we
are gaining progress to understand and thespecial jurisdiction for peace has said so.

(22:56):
We don' t mean if itwas sometimes committed in kind of crimes,
because it doesn' t give life. And finally, for that it is
a court with this temporality as ithas the special jurisdiction for peace, but
also to understand those dynamics of conflictthat caused it to act in certain ways
and that makes it responsible for certainactions. So, recognition is not a

(23:19):
specific type of criminal offence, aswe said in the last program on the
recognition room, but about those factsand behaviors that will not only respond to
the truth of the victims but willalso help us understand that complexity of the
armed conflict in which, of course, for that understanding, the progress of
the Commission for the clarification of thetruth, because they have been important.

(23:41):
Definitely, beyond what you say,I would, besides being a case in
point of success at the regional level, also have to say, Daniela that
many of the countries that have contributedin quotation marks, because that is also
questionable, to the developing countries,other developed countries take a path towards closing

(24:06):
space and economic partners, and wealready know everything that is done. The
case of Colombia is such a particularstep, but it has made so much
progress since two thousand fourteen. Ibelieve that I have recognized at a real

(24:29):
level from different multilateral cooperation bodies,etcetera, etcetera. Like a success case.
And what hurts here Danila really isthat you also said it very well
now all this immediatic coup and thefigure or role these media play within the
actors. If you want how thefourth power of Colombian society is nefarious.

(24:56):
And this is why, because westill see how disinformation is played, which
is a strategy that seems to beused on purpose at the right hand and
at the left. And on topof that we see, as also many
of the people who came out againstthe plebiscite and went out to criticize the

(25:18):
agreement do not even understand what itis about. The agreement simply because hate
speech, fear speech, have becomeinstitutionalized. And this institutionalization of these discourses,
because it continues to contribute formation,continues with institutional tributes. And Mr
Khan and the Criminal Court and thePresident of the World Bank can come,

(25:41):
whoever wants to come to Cdaniela.But if, as a Colombian, we
remain apathetic, we still do notparticipate directly in politics, we continue to
disinform ourselves on purpose and we continueto fall into these tricks, which are
silly players I come back and Isay it in Maduras, because definitely,

(26:04):
the progress that we are going toachieve in terms of peace will be null
and void and this may seem purecart. I think a lot of people
who always talk about the same thing. But this has real effects. It
' s not that we stay inpeace. It wasn' t achieved.
It is not that the failure toachieve peace implies that the Colombian territories will

(26:25):
continue to go through the same historicaldynamic. It is like that wheel of
history, because Daniela repeats herself andrepeats herself and repeats herself, and the
state will continue to fail to arriveand the institutional one and will no longer
be deployed. In addition, itwill continue to be tomorrow for these groups
and see and, for example,also ideas for the next season and this

(26:48):
I also mentioned in some program thisseason, which is going to happen with
transnational groups, which are not talkedabout either. Little is said about the
incidence of the cards came and killedover there on the coast a Paraguayan prosecutor,
a Brazilian mafia. I think hewas hiring some Colombians. There'

(27:08):
s nothing to talk about. Wehave groups from Brazil that traffic tobacco,
alcohol, drugs, etcetera. Wehave groups of Ecuadorians, we have groups
of Bolivians. Ah we have groupsof Mexicans. Daniela we have the train
from Aragua in the main cities,this way, in the Valle del Cauca,

(27:29):
we have the one right now I' m leaving, but basically in
tuluas they are the ones who havekilled. Yeah. I don' t
know how many councillors have done tohim. I don' t know how
many attacks on the mayor either.Then we' re here. We'
re playing, I mean, whatwe' re playing at. When we
say that at least they did payparceles that they have to go to jail

(27:49):
they have to pay. They justdon' t realize the reality. That
you live in jails. Today's crime centers are in jails, the
swindlers, the extortion of quads,everything is in jails. Then it'
s very easy to see her out. And yet when we stand in the

(28:11):
mirror, we realize that the Colombianpolitical project is definitely non- existent and
that as citizens, we do nothave much to contribute to society, unless
we begin to break all these perversecycles. Definitely, the situation in the
country is becoming more and more difficult, and I think that is an undeniable

(28:33):
reality. But there is one thingthere, and I also believe that the
President is sweeping it a lot.Above all, and this we have also
repeated how the Ministry of Defence isacting at this time, if we believe
that there must be a strong attitude, because also when there is a process

(28:53):
of clear negotiation, of agreements thatmust be complied with, but it is
that we have at this moment sevenactive conflicts and that also requires that the
disposition and strategy of the Ministry ofDefence be also in another way. If
I' m counting, if I' m counting, aha. But there
is also something else, and thisis not a situation, because I think

(29:15):
it would also be wrong to sayit here in territory. This is not
that Petro arrived from August 7 toAugust 22, 000 and it all went
off. No, this also comesfrom a process where the previous Government did
not take advantage of the advances madeby the Government of Juan Manuel Santos in
regaining a little territorial control in theareas most affected by the conflict, it

(29:38):
did not take advantage of this situationand because it simply left time to gain
and what happened was that many ofthese groups, also residual groups, regained
control again. There was a vacuumof power and that was returned against the
territory in different areas of the country. By two thousand twenty- one of
the plantation, coca cultivation had increaseddramatically, but people still come out and

(30:02):
say that it is the responsibility ofthe current government. Of course, the
current Government has lacked action. Butthe situation that we have is not only
the result of two years, butit is also the product of an earlier
government that absolutely did everything wrong,so we must be very careful also with
those analyses and, taking that intoaccount, also think about how the government

(30:22):
is going to be required to act, because it has two years left of
which the last months are lost,because we are going to be in presidential
campaigns and in those campaigns if forthe two thousand twenty- two the issue
of peace was down there as hidden, because for these neither I tell you
what is going to happen for thetwo thousand twenty- six, then it

(30:44):
is worrying and, above all thatlack of response. And we must also
see how, at this moment,after last year' s territorial elections,
what is being done and what isbeing implemented in the different municipalities, what
is being done to promote this advanceof peace and that favors that presence that
many areas of the country are needed. There' s what' s going

(31:04):
on and what' s going toend up happening is that there' s
a lot of tension. Many ofthe local governments, because they are currently
in tension with the current government andthe government I really feel that it is
losing the support of the different politicalsectors and that, even if I wanted
to do things right or in away that I was favoring at this time
in the country. Or what's going to happen is that they won

(31:25):
' t leave much room for actioneither and that, while that happens,
speeches like that of the former presidentof Asvarurío, where basically everyone is delirious
with the advances that the special jurisdictionfor peace has brought, except him,
because it is going to be increasinglydifficult, and I think that he has
just asked us or kept asking uswhat the need is and why the commitment

(31:47):
to the truth is so important anddetermining for the construction of a political project
of the country, because it willstop making sense at some point, because
the question is not going to matteranymore, but that no one will care
about that truth. And that's what has come where the special jurisdiction
for peace at such a convulsed momentas the country has, I think it
should be front page, almost everyday in the media, and what we
see is that they reveal themselves andreveal themselves if that makes any sense,

(32:14):
things we already knew about the conflictthat Canada is scandalized, that we talk
about mass graves and that it mayhappen as more news. Canadie is shocked,
revealed or re- identified by thelinks of the security forces with the
paramilitaries and everyone says aben were notlittle, were not a lot or also

(32:37):
those links of the companies. Whathappened last week with Chiquita Branza is something
that' s not from Ahorita.It is something that has been investigating alternative
media for almost twenty years and noone, no one is scandalized right now.
It was news because he was coveredby the big media, news came

(32:59):
out, but no one asked thatquestion again. Nobody reacts. And there
are the few people who are interestedin the issue of implementing the peace agreement
at this time. And so itis worrying, because it is becoming increasingly
evident that multiplicity of actors and theresponsibility that political business organizations have had.

(33:19):
But here it seems as if itis so the bread of every day.
And yes, of course it wasthe bread of every day and it was
practice that a lot of normalized.But I believe that one of the most
difficult points, also in this contextso convulsed to the part of the implementation
of an agreement, is that herenothing scandalizes us and everything seems to us

(33:39):
to be talking about corruption, ifit speaks of violence and fool ah yes,
but there is always the but tominimize and to nuance things and to
the extent that that it continues tohappen, because the advances, understand the
facts, understand the behaviors of theconflict, because they will not be will
serve for some victims, to respect, but not to orient what is the

(34:02):
project to which the country should goto build peace. I believe there,
for example, that these advances aregoing to be null and void, obviously,
because there is a leg, butsee that one in front of what
you just said, because you havetwo paths to choose, not one is

(34:24):
that that leg has made us almostarmored and it can be true. Here
I am not playing to say whatit is to say what it is not
but I have contact with the ColombianSurocident Daniela. So I tell you that
at least in the Cauca Department,violence really is the bread of every day
and it' s alarming to seethings happen like they put a bomb or

(34:53):
throw a tattoo or put cylinders oreven kill people like in kind of a
social piece. And it' sreally the bread of every day. And
that' s where one wonders howbadly we have done to the territories far
from the center those that we areborn, grow and or develop in the

(35:15):
center of the country or in thebig cities with such an urban mentality and
ignoring the dynamics of what happens.And today, when the cauca the valley,
some municipalities of Antioch, the easternplains are once again struck by this,
for what we see is that thosetwo roads are as true as the

(35:38):
other. There are departments or fractionsof these departments that have become immune to
conflict, because it is what theylive, what they see today. But
also, Daniela we see that inthe big cities the conflict is lived apart
together, alarms us for twenty minutes, if much or the whole day that

(36:06):
the news lasts and then becomes likethe song a newspaper yesterday. And we
already forgot, for example, thejamudy bomb and forgot the audios of the
people who put that bomb, whosaid they were going to put another one
in a roundabout in the middle ofthree or four schools. We forget the
people who are dying. And wealso forget that the citizen duty, because

(36:28):
we are citizens, is to takecare of each other. And we don
' t care about this anymore.And what we do care about is,
for example, and I' mtelling you this because I' ve been
able to do it, it's just little fingers. That' s
all we care about. Are thosespeeches of at least my President still pitifully
remain? Do we know who couldat least date my president? Of this

(36:53):
if people were afraid, imagine howdependent we are of fear to quote,
be happy or be dry. Wefunction like those couples in which abuse becomes
the bread of every day and isnecessary to function. We depend emotionally on

(37:13):
fear. We like fear. Politically, we chose the one who has a
hard hand, we chose the onewho shows himself as the cappor a llanero,
as the pattern, as the machote, the great latifundista, all those
figures of power, besides very masculine, are still almost that the stereotype,
the archetype, what we wanted fromwhat we wanted to get from this Colombian.

(37:37):
So this is all sad. Danielaand the journalists also to be seen
today are very different journalists than thejournalists we met or who met our parents
first, because many were killed andare still being killed today. We must
remember this journalist who was killed inCúcuta recently, who is still us today

(38:00):
because there are also some links withgreat powerful characters, such as Abelardo de
la Estrella, who also had adirect relationship with the United Self- Defense
Forces of Colombia, and with nefariouscharacters, as we already told him,
like Salvator and Mancuso. And thesepeople today live in Miami and Daniela on
the coast of Colombians and remain veryimportant political figures. And the generation that

(38:24):
comes from them, Daniela, ismuch worse, because it is a first
generation with second silver, with alot of political power and third, very
poorly informed, with total ignorance ofthe Colombian state. Go to characters like
Miguel Polo Polo and then the governmentpetro from the other side, because passing

(38:45):
reforms to clean desk. That's funny. Daniela, yes, the
handling of information in this country isvery, very particular. I think we
need to be very attentive about thenews. Yes, and also how we
approach them, which means we areusing, which means we are consuming and,

(39:06):
above all, if we are contrastingthis information, because, otherwise,
it is Andalusian, it is verypowerful information. Against him, it is
very difficult to know that it istrue and that it is not true.
But at least what you do,I think it' s easy for Daniela
to get informed and know how tovote. Well, it was time for

(39:28):
that. Before closing I want tosay publicly here that I do not agree
with you on one of the pointsyou have just pointed out and that it
does differ a little when you posefear as the motor or yes as one
of the essential elements for choosing hard- hand ones. To me it seems

(39:49):
curious to say what you say orthis imaginary that we sometimes reproduce about the
people who are supporters ofÁlvaro Uribeand see that I had thought for a
long time that we were going tocar and caturize and exaggerate what these people
were saying until I really met peoplewho, with all the conviction, if
they repeated that now, if theycould go to the farm and so on

(40:10):
and they didn' t say itin the form of jokes, but with
the absolute conviction. And I thinkthat, beyond fear, it is a
matter of selling an idea, inthis case, an idea of security,
but that only applies to a veryparticular part of the country, because it
sold an idea of a country whereonly a few could fit and that is
that one would say, but ifthey fit few, then this gentleman because

(40:34):
he won because those few were hisfriends, it was the elites who were
standing next to the Colombians of good, as they like to say. And
that becomes harmful, because it becomesthe reproduction of a discourse where a greater
separation is generated from those who haverights and those who do not. They
have those who deserve to be andoccupy certain places in society and those who

(40:58):
do not. And that if securityis given to these people who really deserve
it, because it doesn' tmatter if it' s the cost of
a few, then a political projectof the country that wasn' t really
betting on a political project of thecountry, but to sell a country for
the little ones, for the friendsand for the old ones. And that
' s where we saw from thatalso how the alliances and alliances that I

(41:22):
believe are being worked out today whenwe ask ourselves for the truth that the
country needs to keep moving forward.That' s what I wanted to tell
you that I was a little bitat odds and well, I think that
' s where we' re closingthis season. I don' t know
if you want to add to thisbefore we go saying goodbye, because Danielita

(41:44):
a little bit, we could evenget to catch this last semi discussion that
we' re having to give themouth opener or at least the first finites
of the other season. I thinkthese debates are interesting, but I don
' t think what you tell meis exclusive with what those two were definitely

(42:06):
saying. That parallel that I presentedto those two paths was achieved quite well
in the discourse of democratic security andin the two campaigns of former President Alvaro
Uribebeles. And why. Because thatcountry of the little ones is precisely the
country of which we live the Colombianterritories, from the news, from those

(42:30):
of whom we live with another mentality, of which we believe ourselves in some
way superior, because we have beeneducated in the big cities Y bla,
bla? Bla? Bla? Bla? But daniellata must also be said,
and it is that in the Colombianterritories many people miss the figure ofÁlvaro
uribebeles or similar figures why, becauseat least it gave them a bullet,

(42:54):
at least that prevents the lower onesfrom being on the street, at least
that Anything that refers you to violence, then that fear, that is,
the discourses of the legitimate violence,are speeches that are middle. His thorn
is fear. It' s likethe Colombian is coming back and I'

(43:16):
m telling him in that adaptation tobanish violence and this phenomenon. Al Baruri
and Bles showed us that that's what he really needed for the Colombian.
And, besides, for eight yearswith bulls and with what you see,
but people miss that. Many people, even young people, still miss
it today. Daniela, which isthe most particular thing, boys who could

(43:38):
not even vote in the era ofÁlvaro Ur and BVLS have been educated under
that regime of fear speech. Thenit seems to me like a chevere for
an investigation suddenly an ethnography. Idon' t know, I think it
' s a sociological, anthropological,philosophical thing that you can take from different

(43:59):
parts. But it' s funny, Daniela, and it' s always
seemed curious to me, beyond myacademic information, how are these discourses typical
of people closest to Colombian traditionalism?How more Catholic people, for example,
justify violence knowing that in the TenCommandments there are a few commandments that avoid

(44:21):
the violation So, these contradictions arethe ones that lead us to be where
we are today. Without a doubt, I believe that I would close with
these contradictions are the ones that havecaused us to carry the crosses that we
are carrying today and those that arelikely to scourge the Colombian territories in the
short, medium and long term,because the contradictions of which sin and pray

(44:45):
tie. But there will be timeto discuss this perhaps next season. For
the time being, I believe thatone of the great conclusions is open to
the question of the commitment of thetruth and how how the progress of special
jurisdiction for peace can help us toglimpse a little that route that the Leo

(45:06):
country must take from the construction andconsolidation of the political project around peace.
We said goodbye for this season,not without first thanking them for accompanying us
during these episodes focused on the specialjurisdiction for peace. We will hear each
other again in a few weeks anddo not disconnect from the social networks of

(45:28):
donkeys, radio and, of course, our instagram. Drive the territory until
a next episode chao Ons North tob O, from South to North and

(46:00):
from East to West. Its inhabitantsplotted with temple and barrack the abandonment and
changes of their territories. Thank youfor getting on the earthing ship and for
accompanying us on this journey through theland of oblivion. Radio A introduced territorium