Album Club Pack May 2024

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:26):
Hello everybody. We are the Generation Swine and welcome back
to the That's Album Club Pack for May twenty twenty four.
Last time we did this was March, when we spoke
about such gems as Thin Lizzies, Thunder and Lightning, Winter
Sun's Time, one Agrophobic Nosebleeds, Mental fucking ninety nine song
freak Out Today a couple months later, as you expect

(00:49):
from us, we're going to completely different other places that
I would say are entirely unrelated. But yeah, a couple
of weird links did emerge. But you know, some good
chats in store. I am sure we have got, genuinely
The big one in this batch that somehow I've been
waiting to talk about is Motley Cruez Generation Swine. We
have cross Face Zion EP. We are going to have

(01:12):
heart with songs to scream at the Sun, and in
the Beastly Corner we have a suffocation effigy of the Forgotten.
Are we excited?

Speaker 2 (01:21):
I mean, I'm really excited to talk about three of
these records, like two of them in particular. I'm just
like ones that I hold quite dearly, So that would
be nice. Motley Crue, you know that's gonna be like,
I'm a Motley Crue hater as it is so.

Speaker 3 (01:39):
Uh yeah, I mean it's the second sign of the show.
I had to listen to Brandon so tough, so yes,
and that is where we start. So here we are
talking about Motley Crue again. That hasn't actually been you know,
the most like we have held off to some degree.
You know, we haven't reviewed an album or anything like that.

(02:01):
You know, it's just come out quite frequently, you know
anyway what you guys think of Motley Crue, and part
of that has kind of restrained me in my my
crewing Sam, as you've just kind of alluded to, we
are going to talk about an album in a minute
where your album on classic, your your opinion on classic

(02:22):
Motley Crue per.

Speaker 1 (02:23):
Se won't really be megarelevant. But just for a vague clarification,
you do not hate hair metal as an entire concept.
You were rite with Death Leopard seemingly when we did that.
You probably are right with bon Jovi, I imagine. Yeah,
Elliott said some nasty words about Aerosmith and you were
shocked and appalled.

Speaker 2 (02:44):
Like they're the ones I will ride or die for Aerosmith.

Speaker 1 (02:47):
Sure, you know we've we've never spoken about like Wasp
or skied Row or anything much yet, but I would
imagine you probably don't hate them. So why is it
that poor Motley Crue, of all those bands get all
of your ayre seemingly the entire like an iya that
would be reserved an entire hair metal scene. You've directed

(03:09):
every iota of it directly at Motley Crue.

Speaker 2 (03:12):
I mean, I can give you three reasons, and that
is Vince Neil, Tommy Lee, and Nikki.

Speaker 1 (03:16):
Six coming argument.

Speaker 2 (03:23):
Kicks on My Heart is a fucking great soul. I'll
say that, like I'm not I'm not that much of
a heaven that I will say that Kicks on My
Heart isn't like the one absolute classic tune what you
crew have. But you know, other than that, they just
repulse me a little bit.

Speaker 1 (03:38):
I was saying this to Elliott the other day. I
mean it was during the loose review on the main
show Weir when I disappeared. Yeah, you guys listening, We're
not privy to this. That review got very slightly broken
up because Sam was having some tech problems and somehow
every time that Sam would drop out, the cool Me
and Elliott pivoted between the Knocked Loose review and immediately
snapping to talking about like eighties metal. But it it

(04:00):
is a genuine shame for me how little people have
somehow been on this podcast with me who like what
they crue, because like I would be totally up for
just celebrating them at their best. You know, when me
and Bees were on here, we had a lovely time.
We did an album club on Doctor Feel Good that
was around the time the Dirt movie was coming out,
and that did collectively sort of send me on like
a month long Motley Kruebinge, the likes of which you

(04:21):
have rarely seen, and I was having a lovely time.
I think Mark likes them as well, you know, as
he should, because if there's one thing you can depend
on Mark to do, it's enjoy hair metal. But in
terms of the people that we have, you know, doing
the reviews and on these album clubs and that, ever
since I started programming the show, it has just been me,
and it does it slightly slowly baffles me why Motley

(04:41):
Crue gets so much particular iya from the people who
don't like them, again, compared to those bands I just mentioned,
because like, yeah, you can bring in their reputation as
human beings and you know, their image and so on,
which is embarrassing. And I understand that and I completely
you know, can see to those arguments. But I also
think that is kind of true for a number of bands.

Speaker 2 (05:00):
I know it is, but they're the ones where it's
almost like the most celebrated thing about them and they
haven't grown out of it, and it's.

Speaker 1 (05:08):
Yeah, like again there's marketing aspects of what they've done
to their story that is different. But I do think
you know, you know, Motley Crue being repugnant dudes was
not exclusive to them in the Sunset Strip era. On
a musical level, long time my favorites of that you know,
kind of specific glam that will scene. You know, they

(05:28):
are my aerosmith if you like, and you know, if anything,
it's because I always found them more legit from a
heavy metal point of view, and they were you know,
joined as I really got into them by the likes
of you know, Wasp and some of these other ones.
But you know, people who like Van Halen and def
Leppard and Kiss and Guns N' Roses and like even
the most openly pop commercial of the lot in Bon
Jovi ragging on Motley Cruez, He's like weird, embarrassing. Cellouts

(05:52):
has always been like an interesting phenomena to me.

Speaker 3 (05:56):
I feel like how you see Motley Crue is quite
informed by what you think of the other group of people,
if that makes sense. Like, if you like Motley Crue,
you think like like you're saying, you know, why them
and not all these other bands? What do they do
wrong that you can't say for Van Halen or deaf Leperdl,
Bon Jovi or whatever for me? But I don't hate

(06:17):
Motley Crue either. You know, I'm not made of stone.
Looks that kills quite good?

Speaker 1 (06:21):
Live Wire?

Speaker 3 (06:22):
Yeah, you're too young to fall in Love's song?

Speaker 1 (06:24):
You know what?

Speaker 3 (06:24):
I just got Saints of Los Angeles. The song is
a bit of a jam. And that's so I'm pretty
flexible when it comes to when good Motley Crue appears.
The thing that I don't get is people who think
they are some way more like credible or cool or
really just better than like Warrants or Poison or Quiet. Right,
It's like, yeah, they all had dumb, fun hard rock songs,

(06:46):
but Motley Crue didn't go into some degree of obscurity
like those bands. Did you know they headline the big
festivals in America and are still touted as like a
classic band, and that that's what always always puzzled me.

Speaker 1 (07:02):
Yeah, I mean, at some point, you know, if I
was ever to swing opinion in a certain way, I
would love to do an album club on Shout with
the Devil, because that is, to me, it's like a
one hundred percent legit awesome classic heavy metal album, like
not even going fully into like the late eighties hair territory,
yet that is a heavy metal album that I love

(07:22):
in a way that I love early eighties satanic heavy metal,
like it's my jam. And you know, dare I say
at that point in time there was a dangerous element
to it, But I have held off on pulling that
particular trigger because I feel like I would be fighting
a losing battle. Eight Lea's Motley Crue I just love
and I will always love their first two albums, I
think again are just undeniably brilliant heavy metal albums, like

(07:44):
among the best of their era. And you know, slagging
on you know, that era of Motley Crue is always
just kind of weird to me, you know, as if
they were kind of always this like big fat embarrassment
that they're known to be today. By the time you
get to the late eighties and Girls Girls, Girls and
Doctor Field Good, that is like blockbuster glam metal at
its very best to me. But we are here to

(08:06):
talk about generation swine, and that eighties Crew era that
I love is behind us. Our differences on the value
of classic era Crew can be sort of put behind us.
Today we are going to be talking about one of
the most unanimously received as a punchline albums that exists
in our halls. You know, maybe in a way we

(08:28):
are maybe flipping the likes of The Blackout in that
it's you Sam this time, who is assessing how a
band that you already thought were bad went off the
rails and went wrong. Was that an interesting experience?

Speaker 2 (08:40):
I mean what like yeah, like mean this just felt
like when I was in I was kind of just like, oh, yeah,
this is exactly what I would expect Whatley Crew to
do in the nineties when they were no longer relevant,
or when their sound that they were doing was.

Speaker 1 (08:55):
No longer relevant.

Speaker 2 (08:55):
We'll say, not them specifically, but maybe them specifically.

Speaker 3 (09:01):
Yeah, I think that's kind of the story of this record,
to be honest, it's sort of Motley Crue trying to
be all things to all people after releasing the Self Sue,
which is now kind of seen as a decent Motley
Crue record, but certainly at the time was seen as
a bit of a dud. And I think this album
is kind of fascinating and maybe a one off in
that there's a traditional metal of famous members, particularly singers,

(09:24):
leaving and then returning, and they put out some late
career class it revives the popularity of the band. I mean,
you could we could be here forever name either band's
releasing Iron Made and Judis Priest Kills, which.

Speaker 1 (09:34):
Engage three years after this album. Doesn't that feel like
completely different? Like worlds and Epochs, you know.

Speaker 3 (09:43):
Yeah, and like the examples are endless. I was thinking, like,
I mean, even if it's not like classic records, normally
when the favorite member comes back, they release an okay
album band like like Worship Music is a well Likedanthrax record,
Dehumanizer is a popular Sabbath album. Perfect Stranger is a

(10:05):
popular Deep Purple record. There's you know, there's enough of them,
and this might be it might be the only example
of a classic lineup of a classic metal band reforming
and putting out, like you say, easily the least popular
record ever.

Speaker 1 (10:23):
Yeah, and you know the record. It came up a
couple times in recent conversation on the podcast was alluded
by the name a couple of times. Yeah, we had
the brand new the Crew track recently, which for some
reason seemed to reference it in the video with the
Pig's Imagery. Vince Neil was in the news recently saying
how much he hates this record. So it is one
of those even for the band, the people who made it,
so I thought it was time that we get to it.
There were other references to it as well, that we

(10:45):
will get to in time. The year is nineteen ninety seven.
It is no surprise that we are in the decade
that mostly annihilated hair metal. Doctor Feel Good. I kind
of view, and part of its magic to me is
it's kind of like almost the big party, last Hurrah.
It's like the last part blowout of that era. You know,
it's like the change is coming on the horizon and
they're just kind of like, right, let's fucking just go.

(11:07):
And as you say, Elliott, among the worst classic lineup
Reunion records, because this is the alb Worth, the four
dudes you picture Asmotley Crue from the eighties come back together,
and it's very unusual that the album will be not
just a disappointment, which I do think there probably are
examples out of there are disappointments, but legit worse and
lower than anything they've done before because the Carabe is,

(11:29):
you know, the cell tatted record they put out in
surely one of the earlier cases and most amusing cases
of what we always say about cell titled records being
kind of defensive and compensating for something. But you know
that that record not that bad. It's relative obviously for you, Sam,
you won't necessarily care for it. Maybe you'll actually like
it more because Vince Niel's not on. It's possible, but
you know, talking realistic in terms of relation where we're going.

(11:52):
It's far from the worst record of like a metal
band being in the wilderness during the nineties. I don't
really listen to that record the way I do the
five records that preceded it, the makeup, you know, Classic Crew,
But if I have it on, it ain't bad. You know.
It does mean that John Carrabi to this day hilariously
gets headlines of being asked about what he thinks about
Motley Crue and it's like, mate, it was, it was

(12:13):
thirty years ago now on like a six out of
ten record, but it is a normal average nineties heavy
metal album. Then they get Vince neilback, which I think
a key part of I guess that magic coming back
to the band not happening is it seems to really
just be down to like public image and kind of uh,

(12:35):
you know, wanting to reconnect with the public recognition of
what Motley Crue is and who Motley Crue are, as
opposed to a authentic musical reconnection, shall we say, And
that probably speaks for itself in what the album is.
But you know, again, let's use Mainer's example just because
it's so close together in time. To me, even though
it does feel like Miles apart, I made him make

(12:56):
those albums a Blaze Bailey, there are lots of people
going on and that's not iron Maid, and we don't
care about them. They get together with Bruce at just
the right moment and their whole career rekindles. This is
like the bizarre reverse version where the band are like
under pressure from the industry to essentially revive their career,
forcing them to get back with their old singer, and
the result actually sinks them lower. This really is one

(13:19):
of those albums that seems destined to appear in those
thumbnails of the lists of the worst metal albums ever
on virtue of cover art alone. It's like you look
at that image and the awful nineties of it and
you go like, yeah, that's gonna be on those thumbnails
next to Saint Anger and Cold Lake Forever makes sense.

Speaker 2 (13:34):
Yeah, it is like just one of the like pick
the worst part of that album cover and like.

Speaker 1 (13:42):
Like four guys on are they meant to be the
four members of Motley Crew wearing marks? I don't know.

Speaker 2 (13:47):
I mean, like why is one of them upside down?

Speaker 4 (13:50):
Like like like the actual like the Motley Crue font
looks like incredibly logo try hard and the Generation Swine
font being something different and again just look so disconnected.

Speaker 2 (14:02):
It's like nothing about this album am Coover feels even
remotely fought out.

Speaker 3 (14:07):
It looks like that you wouldn't steal a handbag advert
that's the aesthetic they've gone for.

Speaker 2 (14:12):
But would steal a Motley Crue album.

Speaker 1 (14:16):
It's I mean, it's a cliche. It still yeah.

Speaker 3 (14:19):
I mean people always you know, oh, it's like Spinal Tap,
but this really does seem like something that they did
a sequel to Spinal Tap in the nineties. Everything to
the title, to the album cover. It seems like a
bad idea just on the face.

Speaker 1 (14:31):
Of it, the story of the album. I think you
could kind of you know, it's funny you've said that,
because now I can totally envision it all coming together,
because even the fact that you know, like weirdly, they
were Steel celebrities at the time, because I mean, particularly
Tommy Lee was the most famous member at the time
because of his relationship with Pamla Anderson and there was,
you know, the whole sex tape scandal, this kind of stuff,
like it was a legit celebrity tabloid marriage, and like

(14:55):
it's a weird case where the singer comes back to
the band, but he's not the mastate one anymore. And
it's like that's not even the most the biggest story
arould Motley Crue at this point of time. There, I
was like, you know, they are celebrities, or at least
one of them is. For reasons outside of music at
this point, and they continually had a place in the
mainstream because of that, right, Like, this isn't a case

(15:16):
of some of the no name bands from hair metal
just like immediately consigned to like the bin and the
media wouldn't talk to them anymore. Motley Crue had a
you know, had some claws in to the actual mainstream still,
but it wasn't because of the music. And despite how
much they like tried to feed people this repeatedly, no
one bites or like what they're feeding them. It's really strange.

(15:38):
I don't know necessarily if like this is definitively the
worst album made in the nineties by an eighties hair
metal band, I can't produce one off the top of
my head right now that is worse. The point is
I haven't really whatever is worse, I haven't really listened
to because I'm sure it's like, you know again down
in the bins somewhere, you know, I'm reminded of when
I was reminded of the existence of Enough's Enough in

(15:59):
the modern day the other year, And like, you don't
know how much bad hair metal shit might still be
out there at any given point in time. The thing
with Motley Krue in this is that they were the
most visible failure. They were the very definitive of their scene,
and they were still very publicly visible at the time,
and in a way like the fall of hair metal
in the nineties, I think you can look to Bon

(16:20):
Jovi as an example of band who survived and kind
of changed their sound in a way that continue to
keep them at the top commercially, and you can look
at Motley Crue as the most visible example of a
band who were very successful who shot the bed. I
guess it's this and is it Van Halen three, the
one with the guy from Extreme But this is, like

(16:41):
I think, essentially the textbook example of like in this
era when the winds weren't blowing their way, this is
the depth that those bands could sink to.

Speaker 2 (16:51):
Yeah, I think, I mean, I think I like vad
having Free. They're like, I guess the difil it was
as much attention on that. This still feels like it's
because of you just say, the celebrity aspect of Crue
probably had more rise than it, so it's probably the
one that people just forget. Van Halen Free. I feel, yeah,
this one, Yeah, there's still again, like just a like
it's the like the ship staying that won't go away physically.

Speaker 1 (17:13):
It's again that that's saying anger factor, like saying anger again.
Maybe amcover itself one day if anything more to be said.
But I you know, I don't think st Anger is
actually among the worst albums ever.

Speaker 2 (17:22):
I don't think.

Speaker 1 (17:23):
But it was so visible, you know, and the band
was so inescapable when they made that album. I think
that is another factor of what makes Generation Swine. It's
kind of similarly infamous.

Speaker 3 (17:36):
Yeah, because I think, you know, if compared to Van
Halen three, the reputation of that record is just it's
a sort of bloated, slightly nap or very enough van
Halen record. But like you say, they weren't that popular
at the time, different singer. There's a loss that could
be forgiven of it. Generation Swine is more embarrassing than that.

Speaker 1 (17:55):
I think.

Speaker 3 (17:55):
I think people look at this as you know, Lasa,
it's a punchline. It's a laughing stock. A lot of
the sort of shit metal records by classic bands, most
of them are just kind of about.

Speaker 2 (18:08):
To this day, like no One, Yeah, they're boring most of.

Speaker 3 (18:11):
The time, like yeah, you know, like you can compare
this exuseay Iron Maiden exam you look like Virtual eleven.

Speaker 1 (18:18):
Infinitely better record than this.

Speaker 3 (18:21):
Like there's stuff on it that's embarrassing, but overall you
look at that, I just go oh, it's a very
sort of quite painfully average dull ion maiin record, but
it's not humiliating the way Generation Swine. You look at that,
go oh, Like if Motley Crue had any credibility at
all before this, there's no way it survives.

Speaker 1 (18:40):
Yeah, and it doesn't have a song like the Clansmen
to kind of hang it hang its merits. So they
put this together initially with you know, the kind of
pre production stages. They were working with John Krabi still
and a lot of these songs were originally you know,
written with him in mind, but eventually he is sort
of like forced out the picture by you know, again
this pressure from management of the injury and so on,
saying that you know, like no one cares about with

(19:00):
John Carrabi, you need to get Vince Neil back. They've
got a producer called Scott Humphrey on this record, and
I don't know how they found this guy, because he'd
end up after this being a collaborator of Rob Zombies
on like his you know, great run of solo album
and stuff. He's only got a few credits to his
name at this point, and it's like Julian Lennon the
Cult and the Melvins, how fuck does that work? And

(19:21):
then you get him for Motley Crue. It feels like
a real like again, one of the first of many
perhaps throwing darts at the wall kind of decisions. With
this record, he just seems like a nineties guy, I suppose,
And that's about as specific as you can get, because
you know, Motley Crue didn't know what they wanted to
sound like apart from the nineties, like the general concept

(19:41):
of the nineties, Motley Crue decided that the way to
be relevant is to just sound like all of it,
you know, like they have watched all the bands who
got big in their stead and they've gone, Okay, how
do we do that? And it's like watching someone try
to drive a car or something having stepped directly off
of a horse drawn carriage in the eighteen hundred something

(20:02):
with this new like way of way of working. And
is it a grunge record? Is it like a groove
metal record is an industrial record. It's like Smashing Pumpkins,
nine inch Nails, Pantera, Oasis, So it's like every nineties
dart yet thrown at it.

Speaker 2 (20:20):
That's my thing with this record. There is like a
desperation to just sound like anything that's popular about actually
knowing what they want to do, and it's like it
just sounds so unconvincing that every little thing it tries,
And that was just what I was going for. I
was just like, do you like have any did like
they have any idea what they actually want to do
with this at more? Did they just go, Okay, what's

(20:42):
popular the night is, let's try and do all of
it and hopefully something will stick so we can then
hit zero in on that next time and like cash in,
Like I just think that's so gross.

Speaker 3 (20:51):
I think the folks that's ninety ninety seven is crucial
to this because I think, like you look at the
self title'll coming out a nine ninety four and you go, okay, yeah, grunge.

Speaker 1 (20:59):
Old very night before record, Yeah yeah, by.

Speaker 3 (21:02):
Ninet ninety seven. What's the dominant movement is it?

Speaker 1 (21:05):
You know?

Speaker 3 (21:06):
Is it indstrial, is it groove metal? Is it pop punk?
Is it is. Is it post grunch, Like there isn't
really like a dominant thing which Mortley Crue could hang
their out on. So they kind of panic and just go, well,
if we do a bit of everything, then you know,
well maximiz will you know, what's the what's the word?
Well we'll maximize our bets, you know, and the hope

(21:29):
that works. But what you end up with is.

Speaker 1 (21:32):
Well, we'll get to it.

Speaker 3 (21:33):
But I can imagine that's that's the only reason I
can think why this is so all over the place.

Speaker 1 (21:39):
Yeah, I mean, this is album is an act of
pure desperation. To use the word that Sam used and
again as the Motley Crue fan here, when I think
about what is appealing about Classic Crew, part of it
is Motley Cruz sound best when they are on top
of the world, and they are supposed to be this
sort of like you know, gang of hooligans who have
full belief in themselves. They are cocky as shit, and
yeah they're like repellant and disgusting, but at their best

(22:02):
you can't touch them. A visibly desperate Moley Crue. It's
like the entire stack of cards comes toppling down because
the illusion no longer works, you know, the sense of
fun and of power, fantasy or whatever else is there,
like is not there. The last thing you want Whatley
cru to be is pitiable.

Speaker 2 (22:21):
Is they're still then trying to be sleazy and rebellious
and dangerous on this album and it doesn't sound even
slightly convincent, because again I don't know that's what I
get you what you're saying, where like the best they
are like the Gang of Rebels, like wrecking the system
and like being on top of the world and like
fucking everything up, and they're still trying to act like
that's them on this without any kind of like confidence

(22:45):
to it. And then they're just trying to like cashing
on anything else is popular, and it does just sound
really like phony and pitiable.

Speaker 3 (22:55):
It's the fact that Vince's back for this, do you
know what I mean? Like, if you got your old
singer back, it seems the thing you would be obvious
would just be, Okay, well, what do we do in
the nineteen eighties that made us so popular? How do
we become that sort of hair metal behemoth again?

Speaker 5 (23:07):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (23:07):
Okay, we've got our old singer back. Should we do that?

Speaker 2 (23:10):
No?

Speaker 3 (23:10):
No, no, let's try and do corn or Oasis or
White Zombie or Ramstein, and I could see in another timeline,
in a weird way, I could see those two things working.
I don't think it's impossible to say you're can take
Doctor Feel Good, give it some sort of industrial flare,
and you might have a halfway decent idea. The trouble is,

(23:32):
because they're so insecure, you end up with the worst
of both worlds.

Speaker 1 (23:38):
Yeah, and again trying to pin down what this is.
I guess you could call it like an industrial post
grunge record or something. It's like Stone Temple Pilots but
being fed through White Zombies machinery or something. But also
again one of the reference points that if you look
into them talking about this record, they keep saying Cheap
Trick and they brought in a couple of member of
Cheap Tricks to be backing vocals on this album. And

(23:58):
it's like, how you can that sound I've just described
to play Cheap Tricks songs. It's like, what are you
trying to do with all of this? You're right, and
you know they'd already tried to do essentially pure grunge
already on the Karabi record. And actually they weren't awful
at it. You know, it's a perfectly fine, acceptable grunge
era hard rock record. But this now is as you say,

(24:20):
I think the fact that it is the late nineties,
it is that weird anything goes sort of landscape. You know,
the grunge has become post grunge, but there's all these
other kind of stranger, alternate forms of music floating around
in this sort of you know, cocktail before you then
get to sort of maybe turn the Millennium and New
Metals fully, you know, dominate everything. Trying to do whatever
that amorphous thing is is like signing their own death warrant.

(24:42):
The first track on Yourself on the record is called
find Myself. I think the riff in that is probably
the best part of the album, to be honest, with
the original material, Like you would never guess that it's
Motley Crue. It's got nothing to do with Moty Crue
at all, but it's just.

Speaker 2 (24:55):
Like stilted though I assume mean it probably is one
of the better things on the album, but it's still
not good.

Speaker 1 (25:00):
I'm not saying it's a riff for the age, and
I'm just saying in the context it's like, all right,
that's one of the more enjoyable sounds on this record,
is just that kind of big, you know, kind of
industrial riff. The first voice that here on the record, though,
is Nicky Six's in the beginning of a trend on
this of the other members of the band Chinman for
some vocals, and the progression of this song again, I've

(25:22):
said that the first riff, I mean even still like
maybe could be one of the better tracks on the record,
but like the progression of it is fucking baffling because
the first thing you hear is Nicky six his way
through it, and he's doing this kind of Marilyn Manson voice,
and he's doing this, you know, like I've got to
find myself some drugs, I've got to get myself some women, whatever.

(25:44):
And it's like it's it's clearly a sort of ironic
take on Motley Cruz image, right, It's like, you know,
they can't change what they are, but they're playing up
this weird image of what they used to be. You know.
It's like they can't on ironically, just be drugs and
women anymore. They have to sort of be like, oh,
I'm this sort of weird washed up fuck up by

(26:05):
going and get myself from drugs. And then Vince Neil
arrives and the first line out of his mouth is
I'm a sick motherfucker. And it's like one of those
moments where whatever you were going, you know, if you
were taking the verse in the beginning of the track
remotely seriously, it just everything collapses again because the moment
he comes in and it goes from that kind of weird,

(26:28):
seedy irony too, just.

Speaker 5 (26:29):
Like, yeahrms in the air, I'm a crazy guy.

Speaker 1 (26:34):
It fucking just like falls apart.

Speaker 2 (26:37):
The reaction had to the first like when he comes
from with I'm a sick motherfucker, I was like, oh fuck.
I was like, are you actually doing this kind of
try hard cliche? I'm sleeves, I'm rock and roll. Yeah what,
I'm so tough? Oh fuck off. I was so like,
I was like, any chance of me even giving this
album like the slightest benefit of the doubt, and I

(26:59):
wasn't probably gonna do it anyway, but it was gone.
What little like patience I had for Motley Crue just
evaporated in that the moment that chorus comes in, I
was like, ah, I don't like Motley Crue being sleazy
and like repulsive, But when they're doing that in this
kind of like dirty up, washed up has been nineties thing,

(27:19):
it is just like genuinely like so cringe inducing.

Speaker 1 (27:25):
My reaction to that moment is word of like pure
laughter because it is such an extreme Like again, NICKI
is being kind of the detached, strung out voice of
drug addiction and everything. Obviously we've had you know, the
grunge ears, and you know the kind of the way
that drug use and everything had kind of changed in
mainstream culture. I supposed it in its relation to you know,

(27:47):
rock music, think about obviously in the case of kirkabain
Lain Stalely whatever. And then Vince comes in jumping around
like a kid at a wedding, just yeah, and he
can't do that kind of like weird sarcasm that Nicky
at least tries to pull off. All you can do
is go and a shithead and he goes, yeah, that's accurate. Yeah,
But was it Like.

Speaker 3 (28:06):
The way you're describing it sounds better than it is
because you listen to the record.

Speaker 2 (28:11):
It sounds fun.

Speaker 1 (28:12):
It's not.

Speaker 3 (28:12):
Then it sucks the energy out of the song. It's
such a it's an energy sucking idea in theory, but
in execution just there's a few times on this record
where it happens where the energy will just drop out
at the moment where it needs to lift. And I
mean that nicky six bit is cringing, embarrassing anyway, but
at least there's some kind of like you say, it's

(28:33):
a bit of sleeze or swagger to it. I think
Vince Neil comes in Who's Meant to Be, you know,
the dangerous lead singer of Motley Crue, and he just
sounds like a toddler who's been allowed to play Donkey
Kong Dash like one.

Speaker 1 (28:49):
In the morning.

Speaker 3 (28:50):
It's the thing that gets me about the song is
in the history of big bands releasing shit records, most
of them at least usually start somewhat okay, you know
what I mean, Like you think, like Frantic Con Saint Anger,
it's not terrible Future Real on Virtual eleven. To take
some of the close comparisons, most bands who have released
good songs can write a good song to open a

(29:12):
record with. And this just the whole thing I think
could be on the cutting and floor.

Speaker 1 (29:17):
I mean, the song gets worse because I had completely
forgotten about whatever the hell that hollered call and response
with like an actual child. Why the sounds of it
is in like the closing.

Speaker 5 (29:29):
Leg of the trap. Yeah, the kids just yelling like disjection.
It's like, whose idea was to put this there? Like
what what relevance does that have to the song? It's
like you want to shelter their eyes away from this,
the fucking monsters who are playing the song. It's like,
you know, people talking about all the kids choir on
the machine Head album, what is that?

Speaker 1 (29:45):
What is this doing here?

Speaker 2 (29:47):
This means where it feels like, you know, those like
all weird, dangerous, spooky new metal sounding bits with like
kids' vocals and all that sort of shit, like we're
like corn you know, get really upset.

Speaker 1 (29:57):
But even sound mixed, it doesn't like.

Speaker 2 (30:00):
Like that's what I'm guessing they were trying to do
on that moment when you look at like the lyrics
and all that, and it just but it just sounds
completely like ill fought out and not executed. In the
slightest bit.

Speaker 1 (30:14):
Well, it's like fucking mob scene by Marion Manson, but
it's like dropped out as they were tracking it. I
just want to.

Speaker 3 (30:23):
Again fly on the Wall documentaries. I want to know
whose idea that was, Like when you've got this song
and go, I know what this needs? Like I mean
the whole records like that, you just listen to it,
just go whose idea?

Speaker 1 (30:36):
Why? When?

Speaker 3 (30:37):
And again, if you're Motley Crue coming back, even if
your record's ropey, couldn't you write a song that would
establish some sort of confidence in your fan base to
start with?

Speaker 1 (30:50):
Does it?

Speaker 3 (30:50):
Do you have to start off with such a mess?

Speaker 2 (30:53):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (30:53):
And that kind of just fucking around. It's basically the
whole record. And you know some of myavorite examples. Beauty
has that like really big clanging again industrial kind of
guitar riff. It's got that drawling vocal again where you're
not really sure what you were listening to. If you
played someone and said, is that you know what band
is this, they would not say Motey Crue. But again,

(31:15):
the moment the Vince Neil chorus comes in, it's like
you are suddenly awakened to the fact that you, yes,
you are listening to Motley Crue, and it's such an
unpleasant realization. A deeply weird song as well, that second verse,
what he's got the back of vercle doing the kind
of a hit the God off the Street. It's like
you are listening to the whole song from inside of
a washing machine or something. Like. The production choices on

(31:36):
this album are so strange. It's like, you know, be
here now. It is not even out yet, but this
is like they're trying to make it before they've heard it.

Speaker 2 (31:42):
Like views wal Way, I kind of be like, God,
you desperately want to be Nine inch Nails on this
song without like clanging dush on it. But it's like
you got none of like the the darkness that nine
ins have, none of the sex appel, none of anything
that makes nine inch Nails so incredible, and said you
were just left with this like one note, one pace,
like repulsive again, like boring song about that is again

(32:08):
just weird, Like there's all these go like freak up
bits on it, and it just sounds like them desperately
trying to sound scary.

Speaker 3 (32:16):
I think this is my favorite song on the record,
to be honest. That's not to say it's good, but
it's one of the only ones that sounds like a song,
which I can't I mean, I can't believe we becau.
I'm not that big of a Motley Crew fan, but
the fact that that is enough to qualify you was
the best song on your record. There's at least stuff
on here where I go, okay, it's a bit monster magnet.
That bit the pre chorus sounds like stone roses. That's

(32:36):
not a good idea, but it's something you're aiming at
the target. The chorus kind of sounded a bit self
titled alis in chains like not not as.

Speaker 1 (32:46):
Good as that. Admittedly they don't really have the gravitas
for it, but I.

Speaker 3 (32:49):
Listen to that and at least there's some swagger. It's
one of the those songs where it sounds like they're
having any fun at all.

Speaker 1 (32:56):
I mean you said terms of like leading off with
a certain song. Afraid was like the big single that
was pushed on this record, and I and again it's
one of the more coherent songs. I suppose it's the
one that you probably could put on TV and it
wouldn't be like auing again a washing machine. But I
still hear it and go what is this? Because the

(33:18):
main riff, I suppose is supposed to be trying to
be you know, Nirvana, basically it's like all apologies or something.
It's kind of alternative rock, but Vince Neil over it
like groaning and girning. It genuinely feels like a song.
In the verses that's like two different songs played together.
It sounds like they've taken a fairly competent instrumental from
some nineties band and then isolated a Vince Neil vocal

(33:39):
from somewhere else entirely and played over it as a bit.
And if that was a YouTube video, you go, that's
a pretty funny trick. But it's not what you want
the official song to be.

Speaker 2 (33:48):
I mean, like afraid yet, that's them trying to just
do like nineties or rock. But it is such an
ill fit for them and so much My problem with
Get On This Ty is Vince Neil is awful every
time he opens his mouth, like mid Mars as usual.
It is probably the like most innocent member of Motley
cru who does the least wrong on this album.

Speaker 1 (34:07):
I think he was the least involved with this album,
to be honest, I think this.

Speaker 2 (34:13):
I don't know if you like. He like some of
the riffs they asked just like really uninspired, but they're
not unpleasant to listen to. But it is like that
thing like that song. The riff is a totally listenable,
fine night is riff, but it is then when the
vocals come in and they just sound wrong and not
in the kind of like unsettling cool way. It just

(34:35):
sounds like just not nice to listen to. There's not catchy.
That the chorus is really whiny, which again for Vince
Neil is like such a horrid sound like that him
there's a vocal is bad enough him trying to be
whiny and like angsty. I guess on the chorus even worse.

Speaker 3 (34:54):
I think this is what Smashing Pumpkins sounds like to
people who don't like them. Well, I think the thing
thing we're hearing Vince Neil do here is what Billy
Corgan does to people who hate Billy Corgan. And the
thing that again, there's a lot on this record that
puzzles for me. But I listened to this and it's
the lead single and the maybe not the kind of
the first song proper, the first one that's recognized all

(35:14):
the song on the record, and I just go if
the record label had the power to get Vince Neil
to come back against Motley Cruez will Why did they
just release the rains after that? Why they say, okay,
yeah you can do that.

Speaker 1 (35:24):
First song can.

Speaker 3 (35:25):
Be a dreary, sappy alt rock, smashing Pumpkins Z side, Like, yeah,
that's fine. Like you just think, if you like Motley
Crue and you're gonna be excited about the reunion, why
are you doing something that's just so antithetical to that
whole idea?

Speaker 1 (35:43):
Yeah, it's like, I mean, I think, in terms of
what you were saying about the label there, I think
because they thought, oh, we need to get Vince Neil
back to make people recognize it as Motley Crue, but
they don't have any better idea of what the sound
should be to make them relevant in that united them
and then than the band themselves do the bridge before
the last chorus in a freight and again, this is
like the standout lead single on the record is genuinely uncomfortable.

(36:04):
It's like the nineties alternative rock equivalent of being sat
in a cubicle next to someone loudly shitting. It's got
sounds in there that you don't want to pinpoint. And
this track was the most exposure to this album got
very weird video. I don't know if you've seen it.
It's nineties as shit. It's like, oh, we've seen closer,
so we're kind of like they're inside like a bird cage,
which is like inside a woman's dress, and she's kind

(36:26):
of like wabbling around this kind of CG woman. But
the song again, it's not fun. It's it's it's dreary.
And another thing again is Crewe needs fun. You know,
they only work in one mode and it is kicking
ass and taking names. And this weird, painful second track
in a row on the album that's like I am
terrible and normal people are scared of me, but not

(36:46):
in a kind of like owning it fun way, more
in a genuinely sort of seek help way. And that's
again the closest thing to a hit. You shudder at
what other Secrets album might hold. I am weirded out
by the amount of like space rock attempt on this album.
Like Flush is like they're like doing this like David
Bowie singing through a tinny filter or something, but on

(37:07):
like a clanging industrial production, and that's just again a
weird idea of not knowing what they are trying to achieve.
But still somehow going through the whole process of recording
and assembling everything as if there is a vision in mind.
It's one of those fascinating states of like what you've
gone through the effort of making all of this, but
you didn't know what you were making. And again, I

(37:28):
don't go to Motley Cruf a fucking atmosphere like if
I do, it's you know, the atmosphere of being in
La watching a stripper do lines of cocaine or someone
else's tits or something not whatever like prog rock effect. Yeah,
for is not right.

Speaker 2 (37:41):
I mean that first number I was like this one
who like smashing pumpkins at their most kind of experimental
when expansive, but it sounds like smashing pumpkins after they've
had a lobotomy, like and like again the lyrics being
like oh I'm rotten, and like oh I'm so bad,
and it's like again all this kind of like self
pity and like kind of just how it's so bad.

(38:02):
It's so hard being us. It's a really horrible life
where it's.

Speaker 1 (38:06):
This weird way of in the again nineteen ninety seven,
what you are is so uncool. They're trying to kind
of like present it as if they know it's all dealing.

Speaker 2 (38:15):
With the after effects and like they're they're so broken
down from it, they're so damaged. I just again, I'm like,
but do you actually think this or are you just
like saying this because angst and like emotional sort of
like emotionally like bearing yourself of that is cool at
the moment.

Speaker 1 (38:30):
Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I mean, I think
to agree. I think, you know, certain members of crew had,
like you know, I think Nikki six had probably like
gone through rehab and stuff at this point, so that
probably was on on his mind. But like not even
mentioning the big one just yet. Right, But the ballads
on this when they do the space rock thing that
I'm just talking about, like confessions, it's like what if
what if failure were like corporate Execs or something? And

(38:52):
the lyrics on that song feel like they've been AI
generated twenty five years early. It's such a weird assembly
of like soul bearing confecs, sessions that isn't actually specific
about any of them and just also kind of like
washes over you in this amorphous, vague way.

Speaker 3 (39:07):
I think Glitter is the funniest one of those, like.

Speaker 1 (39:11):
The hell is going on Glitter? Why are there trance
SyncE on a ballad home written by Brian Adams?

Speaker 2 (39:20):
Like when they're trying to go like synth pop and
all that shit like goes absoually like that was another one.
I was just scratching my head out and was like,
what am I? Why am I doing this?

Speaker 3 (39:30):
Because I think I don't think Motley Crue, I mean,
Home Sweet Homicide. I don't even think Motley Crue fans
think they're the best ballad band going.

Speaker 1 (39:37):
It's literally it's the worst thing about them. Like fucking
like Doctor Feel Good would be a perfect album if
it wasn't for the ballads right, like it is their
Achilles Hill even when they were good. But so bizarre
how many there are on this album.

Speaker 3 (39:52):
Again, just baffling decisions. But most baffling of all Brian
Adams comes in till you rewrite your song and somehow
the lyric lets make a baby inside that survives the redraft.

Speaker 1 (40:03):
Actually there's a story about that where apparently the producer
on this mentioned that line to Vince and he was like, no,
you're not changing. That's my fucking that's my genius on
the page just makes Danny Warsnop sound like Barry White.

Speaker 3 (40:16):
It's sexless, grim thing I ever heard. Its like, again
trying so hard to be cool and you just go
you can't be one moment on one song about how
self aware you are and go, oh yeah, we're Motley Crue,
We're the dumb band, and then a few songs later

(40:37):
be the dumbest band completely sincerely.

Speaker 1 (40:41):
Yeah, why Glitter is like they're trying to be fucking
Portsthead or something. He's so weird and again without that
sense of like fun or boisterousness. Motley Krue are they
completely cut the legs from under themselves. You know, it's
like watching a Tromer movie if they cut out everything
restive and just try to do like a straightforward relationship drama,

(41:02):
like it's not the skill set at all, but making
it so bizarre and alien like they do on Glitter.
Do you say that the bridge with the you've missed that?
He does it in a weird sort of faux whispered
rap voice. Maybe let's make a baby. It's it's completely
fucking crazy, like someone should have said no to this,
but they didn't. Krue as sensitive in general just never

(41:26):
really feels like mega authentic, you know, and this is
just like beyond the Pale. I think glitterly again another
song was Stolen the Crown, but and Glitter has maybe
gotten off lightly over the years because it's fucking befuddling
glitter and the goal to after all of that still
go yeah, we need he sits to sing like a
two minute space acoustic song in rocket Ship, It's like

(41:48):
the scope of this album is like tried to listen
to it as a whole. It's like you are listening
to a space rock album but made by the stupidest
people in the world. I don't know why that's the
effect they tried to go for when on the surface
you would just think it shit like that first song.

Speaker 2 (42:04):
It's the whiplash you get as well when you go
like you get rocket Ship coming out of the back
of a song like fucking let Us Pray, which to
them trying to do like industrial funk metal, and it's like, like,
what again, what how am I meant to feel about
this album? If you want to you know, you want
to sound dangerous at one point and then you want
to sound absolutely lifeless and pathetic on the next song.
What is what is the identity of Martley Crew at

(42:26):
this point, do you like they don't understand who they are.

Speaker 3 (42:29):
Let Us Pray is kind of the nail in the
coffin for this record, for a song so innocuous, like
there's obviously there's worse stuff on it. But when that
started up, I went, oh, yeah, that was the thing
I was thinking that they could do in nine ninety seven,
a kind of industrial, funky version of what they were
doing in.

Speaker 1 (42:43):
Sounds like Pantera to me. That song that's them trying
to do like Far Beyond.

Speaker 3 (42:46):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, what's a concept. But like, but
it's so bad, it's so shit, and you just go,
oh no, there was nothing they could do never mind,
it was never gonna work. And like you say, that
into rocket Ship just no idea, what's going on there?
Like a space folk ballad for two minutes, and then
that into Rat Like Me, which sounds like if Horrid

(43:09):
Henry formed a band.

Speaker 1 (43:10):
It's just.

Speaker 3 (43:12):
The sequence. I mean, I don't know how you can
sequence this in any way that would make any sense.
But no, you think, how is this a band? On
the like, I mean, I guess it's Motley Krue but
on their what seventh album? That you've had experience doing
this and you're just the quality control is through the floor.

Speaker 1 (43:28):
Yeah, And I guess the title track is the closest
they write to like a straight up rock and roll
song in the way that you are used to from
Moty Crue, But sonically they're so past that point on
the timeline. And like I again, I love straight up
rocking Motley Crue, but I also think when it was

(43:49):
at its best, it was based in some kind of
more typical heavy metal, because Nicky six and Mick Mars
are great riff writers. When you let them work in
that terrain, it's meant to be based in Van Halen
and Judas Priest right. And it's still a problem to
this day, I think, because as we saw that new
song recently, Motley Crue don't riff in the same lene
that they used to because the den and leather isn't

(44:10):
there anymore. It's like ever since this they've been this
weird kind of impersonation of a hair metal sound that
never actually existed back then, because the connection to the
authentic heavy metal that it started from has been kind
of forgotten about, and instead you get all these sort
of lumpen post nineties rock riffs again, Mick mar is
like barely real involved with this one. But we're seeing
that again, you know today generation spiners. I guess maybe

(44:33):
the you know, the original example of it hilarious to
write a song about how slimy your generation is when
you're again you're not the relevant generation anymore. It's like
they wanted to turn this album into a movement or something,
but it feels more like it's kicking themselves while they're down.
It's like, yeah, we're out of touch. Weren't we shitheads
back in the eighties? Aren't you lucky that you've got

(44:53):
new people now? Like what are you trying to say?
And the song is such a non comment, Like I
don't know if they're trying to position themselves as part
of like the current generation and people like hope people
just don't notice that they're older that's how it works,
or if it is this again sort of like slimy,
ironic romanticization of the eighties, but on a record that

(45:15):
sounds like it wants nothing to do with the eighties.
It's so just weird and aimless.

Speaker 2 (45:20):
It's like they're trying to just like kind of like
mocking snarky, sarcastic kind of almost like snarky sort of
punk delivery on it on the chorus, and again it
just doesn't sound convincing in the slightest And again, yeah,
are they confused? Are they taking the piss out like
the the the eighties generation? Are they like kind of
like looking back on it and go like, oh, weren't

(45:40):
we disgusting creatures?

Speaker 1 (45:42):
Because the generation swine thing is the whole branding of
the record, But you can listen to that and not
know what generation they're talking about. It's is this record
like meant to be political? You mentioned rap like Me,
which feels like it's what's trying to be the kind
of corporate businessman parody Let us Pray with the AIDS
line that comes out with that you made love, I

(46:03):
give you aids, My pollution gives you cancer of the brain,
like for worst version of sympathy for the devil ever
and just.

Speaker 2 (46:10):
Like the that's not the record that jumped out to
me and let us pray, but yeah there is a
number of one.

Speaker 1 (46:15):
Yeah, but like the pig imagery everywhere, it was like
really intense branding with this record, Like they had a
real marketing campaign of like we're gonna make the Generation swine,
like you know the catchphrase, and they're gonna be the
images everywhere, but you don't really know what it actually
means or what they're getting at, and what you're left
with just a really ugly, goofy image. What's the other
song where she's like, she's my HIV v IP.

Speaker 3 (46:40):
I mean it could be I comment off the top
of my head, but it could be almost any of
them Shy Brandon.

Speaker 1 (46:47):
Yeah, but you know what I mean about the kind
of like you know they're trying. It's like they're trying
to manufacture a movement, but they don't actually know what
the movement is. Just that Motley Crewe are a band
who exists, I think.

Speaker 2 (46:57):
So you put Generation in front of anything and you
feel you can market that, but they're not actually having
a clear idea who a who you're marketing to, a
what you're marketing about, and it just is just again
it just smacks of desperation, like everyone on this album
like desperation and no planning on, no actual thought process.

Speaker 3 (47:15):
Well I thought Generations looking at the album cover and
the suits and everything, you think, oh, there's going to
be about you know, like the the elites or something,
the old guard who are still controlling the people. And
that's that's the generation Swine. And it's like, oh no,
it's Motley Cruez generation, the generation after Motley Krue. It's
like three different It's like seventy years of people across

(47:36):
like economic backgrounds and everything, and they go and you go,
are we the generation's swine. It's almost like they were
scared to commit to who it was in fear of
losing album sales.

Speaker 2 (47:47):
I mean I look at the cover and I'm like, oh,
the gerswine, you know, the corporate generation who are controlling
things right now. The pigs are all in suits. I'm like,
as you know, the record exects and that's what I mean.
Like again, it just there's no actual clear thought process
been that has been given to any of this.

Speaker 1 (48:05):
Yeah, it's like they've literally got back with their old
singer because the exec told them to do it. It's
it's so weird. It was it let us pray that
I had the other line that, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (48:16):
I was anging to say last album club. You know,
we were talking about Tokyo, the.

Speaker 1 (48:21):
Tokyo subway gassing and then and then.

Speaker 2 (48:25):
That's where has the killing it your neighbors, gas a
Subway in Japan, I got more apocalyptic plans lyric and
I was like, hang on a again.

Speaker 1 (48:33):
I again. I hadn't, you know, refreshed my memory and
all of the deep cuts before I selected this album club.
I had no idea of that connection. But it's weird
the hold that the Tokyo subway gassing had over the
late nineties and the other two thousands. You don't hear
about it anymore, but it must have really made like
a cultural impact if both Agrophobe it knows Bleed and
Motley Crue.

Speaker 3 (48:55):
I almost hope it did, because if it didn't, and
then you're just going knew Motley Crue and I'll go
listen to it, and then halfway through one of the songs,
whe they're going, yeah, go crazy do this do that?
Gas a subway in Japan?

Speaker 1 (49:04):
Just did I hear that? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (49:06):
Is this an incitement to terrorism? In another consonant?

Speaker 2 (49:10):
But that was it is again it was the delivery.
I was like, oh that, like again not to you know,
try and make Motley Crue sound actually like all edgy
and all that. But I was just I was like,
that's just a bit come on now.

Speaker 1 (49:21):
Yeah, well, I mean again, there's so much irony in
the record and kind of you know they're going for
that kind of like it's almost like they're trying to
be Megadeath, you know, like the kind of Dave Mustaine thing.
I'm like, oh, I am the leader, you know, the
evil elite, and I'm gonna bomb your cities and that
kind of thing. And you know, negative at their best
that works, right, and he can do that sneer, Yeah,
he can be a character. Yeah, Motley Crue doing it

(49:42):
is fucking weird, but yeah, absolutely no idea, Like it
would be brilliant if you were listening to this record
and suddenly in the middle of it you had that
little sweet from Agraphab but those bleed of like the
Star of David and then you just move on, and
it would make about as much sense as anything else
that's been plopped into this record. Anybody out there suddenly
comes at you like a punk song, but it's like,
you know, it's this mechanized industrial punk thing of like

(50:03):
it's trying to be March the Pigs, and it just
so much this record feels like they're kind of forcing
these like unnatural cyborg extensions onto their like musical body
because it's the nineties and that's what we do in
the nineties. It's the future, but it just sounds really
like clunky and ugly, and you know, I guess one
of the prime examples of that is right near the

(50:24):
end of the record you have Shout at the Devil
ninety seven, which is what they initially if you follow
the timeline of the kind of this comeback of Motley
Crue in this lineup, this was what they kind of
debuted with I think it was the American Music Awards
or something kind of along those lines, you know, some
kind of video award ceremony, the you know, reunited Motley
Crue line came back together and debuted their brand new single,

(50:47):
Shout at the Devil ninety seven, and it is like,
you know, what if we took this classic song and,
like I was saying, kind of apply cybernetics to it,
just out of this kind of vague desperation of like, look,
we can join the future too. You know. It's a
song that you remember and a song that you like
if you're a Motley Crue fan, but kind of desperately

(51:12):
yanked into a like remember us, but you can't remember
us how we used to be. It's very weird.

Speaker 2 (51:18):
I mean, like I say, monycrav One good song, Shout
of the Devil is fine. You know, I'm not gonna
say the original Shout the Devil is terrible. I can
see why it is held up by Monty Crue fans.
This is pissing over one of your most popular songs
and just turning it into one of the most unpleasant
sending things ever that like sped up but kind of mechanize,

(51:40):
like like, oh, aren't we call an edgy and on
the cutting edge now? And it's like, no, you you're
just taking a song that was, you know, a stomping
heavy metal classic and making it sound just like uh
knock off like and again because the production it it's
so bad. It doesn't sound good what they've done it,

(52:01):
so it just it sounds like a shit covers band
doing their kind of like look at our original take
on Motley Crue, but it's Motley Crue as the shit
covers band.

Speaker 1 (52:09):
I mean.

Speaker 3 (52:10):
Re recordings are such a risk anyway, especially of classic songs,
because the best you can hope for is people think
it's comparable to the original. More often than not, It
just kind of reveals how you've lost the magic sprinkles, do.

Speaker 1 (52:22):
You know what I mean?

Speaker 3 (52:22):
And things. I can see why Motley cru would want
to record or if they were going to record a
classic song to have Vince Back shouted the Devil isn't
a bad choice. You know, it's punchy, it's stompy. The
riff is somewhat translatable to the kind of nineties old
metal thing. But like you say, they've just it's lost
all the pop and spark are the original. They didn't
They almost don't commit to it enough because you know,

(52:44):
I look at that time and I hear the concepts
and I think, well, you know, there was that Junkie
Excel remix of a Little Less Conversation by obviously I
don't know that maybe around this time, but that became
a hit in its own right, who knows. And you
listen to this and just go, oh, you've done a
White Zombie riff over one of your songs, and then
now you're putting on another record again. We keep using it,

(53:08):
but it just seems so sort of passively desperate.

Speaker 1 (53:12):
Yeah, the White Zombie is definitely the band that I
thought of in terms of the rhythm because the original
Shout the Devil riff and kind of drum groove is
very like fixed for four it's meant to be, like yeah,
like every single, it's meant to be a kind of
fist pumping, hey chant song. Essentially it's durned and this
Day kind of added that sort of like white zombie pop,

(53:35):
you know, and they fill up the space with more bass,
drums and stuff, and it's fine again, Like this literally
is the best song on the album, because obviously Shatter
Devil is a great song, and this is a fairly
listenable compared to the rest of the album, you know, track,
but the whole exercise does make me go, God, I
wish I was in nineteen eighty four right now, you know,
And it just it doesn't make you want to punch

(53:55):
your fist in the air like that eighties one does,
And it doesn't have that kind of he's rawness of
like I love the guitar tone and the drum recording
on that original Shout of the Devil and Vince's vocal
is always hilarious on Shout with the Devil, like the
verse rate does the kind of like it is funny
in the original version for sure, but it goes down

(54:16):
easier when it's on that sort of like ramshackle, you know,
raw heavy metal excitement as opposed to this like again,
very mechanized, souped up rehash that still has Vince being
like fucking And that is before you get to the
bongos in the bridge? Am I right in saying that
there are bongos in there? I don't know why. The
very final song on this album, though, takes every single

(54:39):
thing you have heard so far and makes them sound
like they actually did get several people to check that
they were were okay, and that this is the one
that slipped through the net, a little song called Brandon.
That's and in a twisted way, I am so happy
that Generation Swine exists just because it gave us Brandon.

Speaker 2 (55:01):
I mean, this is my favorite song on the record.
Is one of the worst songs ever. It's my favorite
song on this record because at the very least, like
I'm going to forget everything else we've listened to on
this record the moment we're done on this album, Club,
none of it will stick in my memory. Brandon you
never heard Yeah, I've heard Brandon before, Okay.

Speaker 1 (55:24):
Your first exposure, No like It's.

Speaker 2 (55:27):
One of those songs we're like when you hear like
worst songs ever kind of things, and that comes up
and you kind of go like, fucking hell yeah, that
is one of the worst songs ever. But I've not
listened to it in a long time, and just being
reminded of this, like Diamond or Top the Mountain of Shit,
Like I mean.

Speaker 1 (55:43):
At the start of the year, right in our review
of the new Green Day album, Elliott, you invoked the
name of Brandon, and I absolutely just pissed myself. And
you weren't to know this at the time, but this
is a song that myself and some of my friends
talk about all the time as a goof But in
that moment in that review, I was like not prepared

(56:05):
mentally to suddenly think about Brandon without warning, and it
just it got me so hard without you even realizing
why Brandon is such a special, special song in the
pantheon of the worst songs ever?

Speaker 3 (56:18):
Is there a worse song by a famous band. I've
been racking my brain and I genuinely I can't think
of one, because great bands have at least bad records
for the bad songs. It's been known to happen. But
Brandon has this quality to it where every time you
listen to it, jaw dropping isn't just a cliche.

Speaker 1 (56:40):
The world stop every time you hear Brandon.

Speaker 3 (56:43):
The first time I heard it, and really every time
I hear it, I can't believe my ears. I literally
can't believe what I'm listening to. And that's after you've
been teed up by the dozen songs that have come
before this, which we've all said are variations of bad, dreadful,
and then they just come and smash it out the
park at track thirteen.

Speaker 1 (57:04):
If I hadn't so recently heard you by the Blackout,
I would maybe be tempted to call this the worst
rock ballad ever. At the very least, they're on similar.

Speaker 2 (57:15):
This is funnier than You, fair enough like you.

Speaker 1 (57:18):
As a worse vocal for it's amazingly But this is
again Nicky six and Tommy Lee had both you know,
done vocals at various points throughout this album, introducing them
or is a good sign. Nicky songs are kind of
mainly about you know, sort of like girlfriends and wives
and stuff like that, and again his kind of his
behavior and how that affected his relationships Tommy Lee writes

(57:40):
a song about his newborn song Brandon, which what I
think about this is in a list of songs of like,
you know, songs about children that those children, when fully grown,
would be likely to sown their parents over. It's like,
surely the other top it's like, oh what like Phil
Lennard's daughter Sarah and I get this, Yeah, like.

Speaker 3 (58:05):
Hey, Jude, that's one substantially better. Just it's hard to
know where to start because everything about the song is funny.

Speaker 1 (58:18):
Even if the reason when the start it is funny.
It's it's like it sounds to me like the music
that plays in an American film or TV show when
they go to Britain and it's like the Royal Family
and like bucking in Ballast.

Speaker 3 (58:29):
It's like, it's just so funny when you know what's
got like because you know Tommy Lee is gonna come
in and you just think you've gone to the effort
of arranging a string part and you haven't thought should
we try someone else singing it? Maybe because you're just
gonna get being you bring those tears to my eyes

(58:49):
so well already just collapse laughing.

Speaker 1 (58:54):
The strained delivery of every line of it combined with
the earnestness, the complete like this is the most important
thing I've ever recorded. Earnestness with which some of the
worst lyrics ever are delivered, is what makes Brandon really
one of a kind. Again, I can imagine you know,

(59:16):
you know, Sam, if you've you've heard the song before,
but if anyone out there has not heard Brandon hearing
this song and these lines like coming in sequence of
like Brandon, I love you, you are the one, Brandon, my son,
and then he gets back gets to fucking the mother
one when he goes your mother gave birth to you.

(59:39):
This song it reminds It sounds to me like someone
who has had their brain wiped doing some kind of
memory test to remind himself who his loved ones are,
Like you are my son, I love you, I love her,
she is your mum. It's like he's desperately trying to
cling onto some idea of who this person is, pouring
at a photo of him while every memory fade from

(01:00:01):
his mind in an act of fucking like I've completely
forgotten the word. But in the end of the song,
he doesn't recognize his person anymore, you know, And that's
not the impression I think he was going for he
is like he's just written like he loves I love
my son, your mother gave birth to you, she like

(01:00:22):
she was by candlelight or something like that.

Speaker 2 (01:00:24):
I can't want the things that lyric is like, but
it is so like futile.

Speaker 1 (01:00:27):
That's the word I'm looking for.

Speaker 2 (01:00:29):
Yeah, I mean this song is futile, yes, but like
it's so little and like and like no one has
then given these lyrics a second read for and like
handed him a for saurus to try and like change
up the words a little. It it's so like and
in a way, there is something bizarrely quite innocent and
endearing about that I love you like she is your

(01:00:54):
ma trying like walk those lyrics written, how do I
make this bit the song? And he's gonna just going, Okay,
we're gonna like break up the words and it's again
like so bad, but I'm just like, ah, he's he's
I hate Tommy Lee, but he's at least trying here,
And maybe you shouldn't try because it's pathetic and miserable

(01:01:16):
and embarrassing, but like it's funny.

Speaker 3 (01:01:20):
The only thing that makes me think of is there's
a show called Staff let's flats, and the main character
has this sister who wants to be a pop star,
and she's always making up these songs. It's all like
Champagne on ice, Cigarettes on ice, Like it's all lyrics
like that, like you've they've processed pop music and it's
just coming out garbled and lyrics like your mother gave

(01:01:42):
birthy with love inside she had candlelight and songs of life.
It's like he's probably it sounds like he's heard those
words in a song somewhere and he's, like you say,
he's trying to find make them make sense and like
cram them together, and I know what you mean. So
about it being kind of there's a sort of you know, sympathetic,

(01:02:02):
there's a.

Speaker 2 (01:02:02):
Naivety to it that you kind of like you can't
hate him doing this song because it's like it's the
most sincere they've ever sounded.

Speaker 3 (01:02:12):
That's the worst in sort of all though, because it's
not like it's just trying. Yeah, it is pity, but
this is Tommy fucking Lee. He does not need our pity.
And yet you listen to this song, you just go ah,
oh poor, to blessed.

Speaker 1 (01:02:27):
All the things you could say to like the person
you love most in the world, you know, like the
poetry that you could pull together to express what the
birth of your son means to you and has added
to your life. Like this song is the equivalent of
getting like a fucking you know, a birthday card or
something where like they've just like sign yeah, sign their name,

(01:02:48):
added nothing else except it's in the form of this overwrought,
fucking power ballad. It's mental if you've never gone onto
the Genius lyrics page for Brandon where people can add
the little annotations. Honestly, this might be the funniest page
on that site because someone has Someone has annotated the
line your mother gave birth to you with love inside
and helpfully explained. This mentions that Brandon's mum gave birth

(01:03:09):
to him, and all the annotations are like this Brandon's mom,
who is his mon his mom? This refers to how
Brandon is his son. It's so fucking good. It's like
genius is in on how ship these lyrics are. And
if I think about Branda for too long, I will cry.
And it's not for what tommyly intended. And it's even

(01:03:32):
wilder now because you remember there was that new story a
few years ago, the adult Brandon getting into a public
fight with Tommy and beating up, and I imagine this
song it was because of Brandon.

Speaker 5 (01:03:43):
He's like, you wrote that song about me when I
was three months old, and you didn't say anything of substance.

Speaker 3 (01:03:51):
Brandon holding Tommy by the collar, like Tommy bloody's face.
He's like, Brandon, I love.

Speaker 2 (01:03:58):
I want to plead him through the song lyrics of that.

Speaker 1 (01:04:02):
Yeah, it's like, this song is so bad it makes
an active domestic violence funnier and that is real fucking
leap you've got to go through. I wish most bands
worst song was as funny as Brandon. You know, the
world will be a better place if that was true,
because it's it's one of the most like undeniably cringe
worthy things as everything released by a big artist. Like

(01:04:24):
every person in the world, crew found or not could
agree on Brandon. It's astonishing looking for who to blame
for Generation Swine. I suppose, you know, you could blame
the producer. But then again, like we said, there were
elements that he tried to say no to and they
just sort of insisted. I got a mad quote from

(01:04:45):
him where he said, I wanted to make a Motley
Crue record that sounded like the early stuff. What I
really liked was pure Mick Maher's raw guitar. Why have
you put space production over all of it? Then? How
does that add up? Motley Crue themselves blamed a lot
of the marketing and the label decisions and stuff. But again,
they weren't sidelined right like they would actually pushed very

(01:05:07):
hard for a hair metal band in the late nineteen nineties,
Like they had a big music video, they were on
that big again huge award show debuting they comeback. You've
got a full on celebrity drummer married to like one
of the most famous desired women on the planet. There
is nowhere to put the blame other than this record
is a desire. Even if Motley Krad made a pretty

(01:05:28):
good by their standard crew record, it might not have
succeeded in nineteen ninety seven. But this is just like,
who is the target audience for this? Who is going
to listen to this when any number of the bands
that they are trying to ape have the market fucking down?

Speaker 3 (01:05:46):
You know, I just I kind of mentioned earlier, but
I just don't understand how no one stepped in because
you know, like Motley Crue in ninet ninety seven, they
were kind of teed up for some kind of success,
But they can't have been so uno touchable that no
executive or no one could just say no, no, no, we
are not putting Brandon on the comeback Motley Crue record.

(01:06:07):
You'd think someone would step in. But then again, like
you say, you can only blame the band because an
established band nearly two decades in strings of successful records,
you shouldn't have to hold their hand through making an
album like you should be able to trust them and go,
you know what, guys, like, we'll trust your judgment on this,
And yet Motley Crue in nineteen ninety seven couldn't make

(01:06:33):
anything even passable.

Speaker 1 (01:06:37):
Yeah, it's just it's weird in terms of the legacy
of their career because they don't have that kind of again,
if you look compare them to fucking you know, Iron
Made and judis praise for everyone we were talking about.
Those bands have that real rebirth and that reflaming of
kind of you know, original line up whatever. Motley Crue
have some sense of a comeback, but they never make

(01:06:59):
a like legit classic record again. After this they again.
We were talking the other day. He were like, is
there a record in between like this and Saint Los Angeles?
And I'd forgotten that. Yeah, like the New Tattoo exists.
Apparently Vince forgot New Tattoo as well, because I kind
of got a qute from himhere he says about the
Saint Los Angeles record, He says, this is just a
great rock and roll record. The last record, Generation Swine, wasn't.

(01:07:21):
It was a terrible record because there was too much experimenting.
The last record was not Generation Swine. They had made
another one in between, their actual comeback record. I suppose
is more of a legacy preserver, because you know, the
it's the thing that set crew up to be this
band who can just sort of comfortably tore on their
legacy for the rest of their career, even though the

(01:07:43):
live band died obviously four completely apart in standard at
a certain point. Saint Los Angeles the title track was
their biggest hit in nearly twenty years. I like it
just fine. I think it is a representative of what
I was saying about how modern Motley Crue doesn't actually
sound like they've recaptured the heavy metal band they were
in the eighties. It just kind of a vague evocation
of like when they were the Kings of the Sunset

(01:08:03):
Strip and that kind of rehabilitation of the image in
order to prepackage them. Elliott, it's your favorite song ever?

Speaker 3 (01:08:11):
Oh, you know, just we've already been going for an hour.
I don't want to take up too much more time.
But yeah, like no, to be honest, when we were
going back through Motley Cruz songs and trying to listen
to some of the stuff afterwards, that came on, And
maybe it was just because I'd listened to the Generation
Swine twice in one day, but that came out and said, oh,
oh that's good. That's nice, and I think it's you know,
I still think it's like a pretty good song.

Speaker 1 (01:08:32):
Yeah, it's good enough track. I think I wouldn't call
sat On Sandy's, you know, a smash comeback album. You know,
it's similar in terms of what I did their career
for something like as something like Black Ice SPA c DC,
But it's not as good as that as an album.
You know, it's kind of it had a good single
to hang the live set on, and basically that all
they need to do is like ride the wave of
rep appreciation that the seventies and eighties rock bands all

(01:08:55):
kind of got it at the end of the naughties.
Motley Crue today are probably more of a laughing stock
than they have been since Generation Swine because of first
their Vince Neil troubles and so on, and then obviously
you know, the recent lineup troubles and everything and they and.

Speaker 2 (01:09:11):
Then the contract and then the blowing up the contract
and all that shit.

Speaker 1 (01:09:15):
So I think we are now currently living through the
lowest Motley Crue public image since this point. But I
think that again their actual plays probably weren't changed very much.
Their legacy are sort of setting stone to a degree
for myself, you know, I essentially I'll never actively listen
much to anything really started to feel good those first

(01:09:36):
five records. I do listen to an awful lot at
the low of this though at the overall we got
Brandon She Is Your Mum. So that is Generation Swine
from Motley Crue. I figured that that would be the
bumper album club for this particular pack. There's a lot
to fucking dissect on one of the most infamous albums ever.
I think the next several album clubs will be a

(01:09:58):
little bit kind of more maybe self explanatory to a
certain degree, or at least, you know, kind of more
more condensed in what they are offering. The next one
that we can go to is Cross Faith, and it's
their Zion EP, and it's a polar opposite in some
ways to what we've just done. I'm thinking specifically about
that sense that Cross Faith as an album club, when

(01:10:18):
I was putting it together, almost feels like some people
might not think there is enough content because like Motley
Crue made their story their brand, like we were saying,
they got they've gotten through an awful lot based on
kind of weaponizing their story as a product. Cross Faith
as we go back to the metal core landscape of
the early twenty tens, they are a band who, you know,
in the modern day a good ten years kind of
from their peak. Here, their fans will often say they're

(01:10:41):
taken for granted, and to some degree, maybe they're because
there isn't really much story with Cross Faith.

Speaker 2 (01:10:48):
Yeah, I mean like that one of those sort the
modern medical bands that you kind of go like, they've
trucked along respectfully since this point, but the story of
Crosshaferetty much happens in like just a two year period essentially,
from like twenty twelve to twenty fourteen. It was just
kind of this like explosion of a thing that was
happening at that moment where there was so much going

(01:11:10):
on starting from this EP and then from there there
isn't really a story.

Speaker 1 (01:11:16):
Yeah, and I guess that's gonna be an interesting conversation
this because essentially what we're gonna be doing is sort
of positioning Cross Faith in their relation to sort of
wider metal history, you know, like what is Cross Safe's
legacy or place in the story of metal in the
twenty tens and into today. And I think for a
long time now Cross Safe almost seemed to exist in
this weird vacuum where time doesn't pass. It's like trends

(01:11:38):
and the metal core world that moves on, but crossleafer
always just kind of there. I remember when I got
into Cross Safe looking back, there wasn't really much of
an angle or anything. It was just like this bander
from Japan and they're crazy and they're really good. Live
here you go.

Speaker 2 (01:11:51):
Yeah, this is you know, electro metalcore but from Japan
that has just most like dialed up to the max likes,
no sort of shrinking violet thing. This is maximalist, like
big blaring sims, big chugging breakdowns like go have fun.

Speaker 1 (01:12:09):
Yeah, and we are We're going back in time here
to the mainstream metal landscape of twenty twelve to twenty thirteen,
a formative time for some of them perhaps, And I
suppose we do have to ask, like where did cross
faithe come from? And you know, don't just say Japan,
like what what spawned Cross Faith? Because I I don't
specifically remember a point in time of Cross Faith breaking
through personally. I got into them on this EP I

(01:12:31):
think it was, and they were kind of already there
as like a thing in the landscape. This is like
widely seen as their peak moment of excitement where maybe
they sort of solidified what was kind of you know,
bubbling at that point. Sam. We are returning to the
well of Sam dig non social media handles. So I
am going to assume here that you can act as

(01:12:52):
like something of a Cross Fay scholar.

Speaker 2 (01:12:54):
I mean, I was boots on the ground for Cross Faith,
like at this time they were like one most bands.
So what happened? It was? I think it was one
of my some mentor like in like twenty early twenty twelve,
and that they were opening on it, and I just
remember seeing people kind of go like, holy shit, this
Japanese band covered Omen by the Prodigy, and that's what

(01:13:18):
That's what got their initial buzz was that Omen cover,
and I was like, Oh, that's wicked. And then they
got announced to support While She Sleeps on their like
first big proper headline tour, and that was on the
basically the release of this EP, which the whole point
of this EP was they'd already had any EPN and
album out there, which had kind of like done stuff

(01:13:38):
in Japan, made nothing just not even crossed over to
anywhere outside of Japan really, so essentially this was now
like they did this EP to try and get some
attention and gain some traction overseas, and so they were
like getting support slots with like rising meticre bands and
bringing this EP and these songs along combined with that

(01:14:01):
live show, and it was like this what Crossway is about.
And to me seeing them open for that While She
Sleeps to which I saw them on twice, I was
just kind of like, what the fuck am I seeing
it was like the most kind of like rapidly I
have fallen in love with a band upon just seeing
them live.

Speaker 1 (01:14:20):
Yeah, and again to sort of set the stage go
into this, they are, you know, still a favorite band
of yours, kind of going into they are on those.

Speaker 2 (01:14:29):
Bands that like, I don't know, I'm not like as
wild in Love results in twenty thirteen, but a lot
of like the metal core stuff I liked at that time,
I won't give a lot of it. I won't really
go back to at this point, Crossway are still and
I will regularly stick on this EP the following couple
of albums and I'll just be like, ah, just just comfying.

(01:14:49):
It's just a good time is being had right now.
Like I still have a massive cross.

Speaker 1 (01:14:54):
Faith Yeah, and again, going back to that sort of
question of like, you know, where did they come from?
Thinking about sort of the precedent for metal core was
since opens up a whole wild west, you know, because
that could be anything from Shikari to Icy Stars, and
then like obviously you know, the Japanese element brings its
own sort of jay rock tradition. It's something thinking about
this Electronica was kind of like all the rage and

(01:15:17):
sort of the early twenty tens, and it's again doing
this album club and not even just specifically to this
you know, release, but thinking back about the kind of
the landscape and the kind of the cultural you know,
sort of appreciation that kind of spawned, I suppose, is
what a lot of what might now seem tacky in
terms of like electronica, you know, crossovers or whatever, really

(01:15:40):
was like kind of positioned as like this is the future,
this is like a key part of where metal is going,
you know.

Speaker 2 (01:15:46):
Yeah, and like like I said, like lots of bands
were doing it, and lots of them were doing it
badly icee Stars, and it was it was like attack attack.

Speaker 1 (01:15:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:15:56):
It was this kind of like like all wood and
metal call like disco like synth drops and hand claps,
and it was just like so poorly conceived supper Like
none of these none of them had any clue about
electronic music. Essentially, they were just slapping on there too
because it was the thing to do, was the thing
to take metalcore into the future. And what immediately Snave

(01:16:19):
Crosswaves stand out is that they would they were the
first man outside of like Shaikhari who again were they
actually a metical band, like they were their own sort
of thing, part of the whole new rave thing over
here and all that. But Cross Faith suddenly felt like
it was like, oh, this is actually convincing in like
these guys understand electronic music, and it was on the
first case you're kind of be like, I'd buy into

(01:16:40):
this fusion in a way that like I don't with
the early Asking Alexandria records where they've just done a
metalcross song and then had a little dance break at
the end of it.

Speaker 3 (01:16:49):
I think that's the main reason why, along with a
live show, why Cross Faith did capture people's imagination so
much of that time, because I look back on the
period of dubstep and particularly metal fusion as one of
the real missed opportunities because you know, we're looking at
it now and go almost none of it was good,
But those two genres weirdly shared a lot of the

(01:17:09):
same appeal, Like a beatdown, isn't that this drop? Yeah,
it's a drop, And the juxtaposition between the really melodic
stuff and the really heavy stuff. That's the same thing
that makes scrillics exciting, or dead Mouse or Borg or
whoever in that scene you want to talk about, and
the fact that we kind of look back now is go, oh,
Cross Faith were the ones that did it well. And

(01:17:30):
you know, if fucking Corn gave it a go, and
that record is very mixed received. I think I had
some really good songs on it, but a lot of
it doesn't work. But even to someone who wasn't so
boots on the ground with Cross Faith at the time,
I go back to this and go, yeah, this is
quite a step ahead of what everyone else was doing,
and so many bands were trying it.

Speaker 1 (01:17:50):
I think a key reference point in my mind, I
guess in terms of the early twenty tens and this
sort of culture is that I think it must have
been a renewed level of reverence of the Prodigy within
sort of rock.

Speaker 2 (01:18:01):
Invaders Must Die happened exactly. It was like holy shit,
the Prodigy, but particularly.

Speaker 1 (01:18:06):
Again within metal, I mean, I mean across the board,
like the post Invaders Must Die years. You know, some
of those songs were really ubiquitous at that kind of
point in time. But you know, we've spoken before about
how kind of an embrace of like multi genre influence
began to become sort of more valued than simply being
a really good metal band, and you know, this is
the time that the Prodigy then headlined downloads. Was it
the year the EP actually came out? Actually, maybe it'd

(01:18:29):
been the Prodigy. Yeah, when Prodigy sort of were like
fully accepted as like okay, yeah, shit, they're one of
ours now, and something that's gonna come up with this
album Club. I think a lot is there's an almost
retro futurist quality to kind of stuff from this time,
where like the way you look at like industrial from
the nineties and there's all the sort of ps oneisms
of it and it's now retro when at the time
it was trying to be futuristic. I think about the

(01:18:50):
early twenty tens and the sort of rave metalcore translation
of what the Prodigy were doing, And it's surreal to
me because the difference is I actually lived through this
time and I engage with this music as it was happening.
But am I alone and thinking it's starting to become
sort of similar, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:19:05):
Well, I think, like, look, I'm not gonna say this
EP hasn't dated because of the Simpsus because like ext
One usually just dates really rapidly because it's one like
it is alwaysgressing. But to me, there is something again
that about this because it was at the time probably
one that was trying to be the most futuristic sounding,
and it now just made you think of like wipe

(01:19:25):
Out the video game it is, it's wipe out music.
Is that kind of sound of like, what what does
the year twenty ninety seven or whatever the year was
in like wipe out sound like? And that's even just
going for.

Speaker 1 (01:19:36):
It's like glowsticks culture. You know, it's like, when was
the last time you heard someone seriously talk about bringing
your glow sticks? But they were just fucking everywhere if
you look at me.

Speaker 2 (01:19:45):
Kind of passing words with jpop and that ship where
glowsticks are.

Speaker 3 (01:19:49):
Like, it's funny because so I was like twelve or
thirteen around this time, and it's funny hearing people now
these out there every time. But I look back on
stuff from that because I was talking to my friends
saying like, oh, you know, pop music back then it
was so optimistic and enthusiastic, and pop music now maybe it's.

Speaker 2 (01:20:11):
More tonight in it.

Speaker 3 (01:20:12):
Yeah, And then people now go like that was the
worst time for pop music ever. It was you know,
let you say party rock anthem or first, let me
take a selfie and all of that stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:20:21):
It was terrible.

Speaker 3 (01:20:22):
But there's something about going back to stuff from that
time where you go, oh, so so naive, the world
seems so exciting and or like you say about the
ninete industrial thing, or like when you look at like
the Jetsons or something, you know, you look at like
pictures from the seventies of what the future is going
to look like and just go like, ah, I want
to live there. And it's funny because I was never
a massive cross faith fan, but going back to this

(01:20:43):
and listening to it, and I remembered that feeling of
this is the future, this is what's coming, and even
though I wasn't that excited at the time, I kind
of look at it listen to it and go, oh,
how nice.

Speaker 1 (01:20:56):
Yeah, you know, I was, you know, a few years
older than yourself. I was a young team at this
point in time, and you know, geographically I was removed
as well, and I was My experience of the early
twenty tens in metal is always kind of having a
portal through things like particularly metal Hammer and the kind
of like metal Hammer podcast and stuff like that at
that point in time, and you know, seeing like what

(01:21:16):
was happening in the London metal Hammer corner of the
world and kind of what people were able to experience
and sort of you know, looking at it from there
and Cross Faith, you know, we were part of that,
and obviously a huge part of that came from the
live show, but they were basically it seemed like they
were already being spoken about by everyone further into the
scene than I was, because I suppose of the live show,

(01:21:37):
and then this EP kind of came and capitalized on
it again, like looking, they've got a record release in
two thousand and nine, which I don't think I've ever
listened to, to be honest.

Speaker 2 (01:21:45):
That's very good is the one thing of there's I
would say is genuinely kind of bad.

Speaker 1 (01:21:49):
Right, And then the twenty eleven album, which again just
seeing that album cover just immediately makes you think about
the omen cover that was the Yeah, which it is sensational,
it must be said, and always was brilliant live. But
I think the Zion EP is when like Cross Faith
music actually begins to kind of like register in my
brain essentially as they being a creative band that were
making stuff and I think judging by the reaction from

(01:22:10):
the public and the places ep has I guess that
that is fairly true across the board.

Speaker 2 (01:22:16):
I mean, I really like that first album, The Dream
of the Space. There's a couple of songs and they're
like stars fading and the slow motion. I'm always like,
that's sort of the sort of thing I've got a
massive soft spot for. But it's not a great milk
or album. It's because after seeing them on that Liveshion,
I bought the CD from them and got more to
sign it at that showing manstter w And I saw
them because I was just like, fucking how I need
this band, like everything about them, but like it's that

(01:22:40):
album does sound you know, very twenty eleven Symphy metal cores.
They haven't quite got everything line from Places until that
Omen cover, but yeah, this was it. This was like
say anything that they've kind of put together to sort
of relaunch, like not really brand, but like take themselves
global and make themselves a like serious proposition in metcore.

Speaker 1 (01:23:01):
Yeah, And I guess you know, we always say about
Cantera Bats how that they were kind of they were
obviously a foreign band, but they just got adopted by
the UK. So you I think you could very much
say the same about Cross Faith right. Were they on
that big famous the Karrang tour with like limp Biscuit and.

Speaker 2 (01:23:14):
They were main spawned CD of Limp Biscuit.

Speaker 1 (01:23:16):
They were spoorting necrogoblok On and Baby Godzilla. I think
that's the line up.

Speaker 2 (01:23:19):
Yeah. They were supporting Bringing with the Horizon on the
very first sem Paternal tour. Yeah, kind of like the
you want an opening band, like we were probably gonna
blow you off stage, to be honest, which I saw
them due to limb Biscuit and Bring on those tours,
but they were a real kind of like embraced by
the UK is kind of like the the exciting thing
to bring along.

Speaker 1 (01:23:39):
Yeah. And again because of my sort of geographical removement,
I didn't see cross Fafe live until it was when
they were supporting Berry Tomorrow on the earth Bound tour.
Like again, a few years sort of past this era,
but their reputation in that field was just always sort
of long established and the first thing any would say
about them at this point in time, the amount of
overseas presence they had was interesting. And this EP was
originally released on Search and Destroy, which is a UK

(01:24:02):
label that had While She Sleeps on it at the time.
So again that makes sense with the tour that you
were talking about. So it really felt like if you
were following that sort of like twenty twelve metal Hammer
slash kerrang train of popular metal, cross They've had elbowed
their way to the front of it where they were
rubbing shoulders with like while She Sleeps and bringing the
Horizon and etc. And it's it's funny think about now
because if we think in terms of the like generations, however,

(01:24:23):
many people listen to us right now might have gotten
into following metal like after this point. And if you
say Cross Faith were you know, fucking again, maybe not
as big, but there was again rubbing shoulders with while
she Sleeps, bringing the Horizon, et cetera. A lot of
people would be fucking like baffled by that because you know,
not to do them down, because they are a band
who are still active. But when do you think the
last time Cross Faith had a really big boom of

(01:24:46):
like winning a bunch of new fans over rather than
the established.

Speaker 2 (01:24:49):
Probably like twenty eighteen felt like a bit of a
like resurgence moment briefly, and that like that looked like
it was going to carry forward, and then COVID happened
and cut the legs off of their kind of research.
At that point, the down they released in that year
felt like kind of like crossover back, you know that
they're everyone's sort of starting to get on board with
them again, but it just it was not again. It

(01:25:11):
felt like the start of it, but never gained the
momentum that they built up across this EP and the
following album.

Speaker 1 (01:25:17):
Really Yeah, and the Zion EP is where we're going too,
because it's the moment where I guess the stars aligned
and Cross they suddenly were everywhere you looked, and they
were on you know, the tip of everybody's tongues. As said,
you know, supporting Bringing the Horizons twenty thirteen arena tour.
That's semp Paternal. It wasn't it.

Speaker 2 (01:25:34):
It was like the underplay tour they did on that,
but it was still like the first seen Paternal tour.
So this was like brewh hasn't taking their album that's
blown up. I'm going to take them to big places.
They're taking on the road first time, Crosshafer, who they
have picked to like share the stage.

Speaker 1 (01:25:49):
Yeah, So revisiting this EP, you know, fucking twelve years
later talking about it being a big moment for them,
but also that again kind of naive, charming, retrofuture quality
that it now has. You know, how does it sort
of stand up?

Speaker 2 (01:26:06):
I mean I listened to this EP every every couple
of months, Like I still go back to CP a
hell of a lot. Yeah, the moment that intro to
Monolith drops, I'm just I'm in my happy place because
again that that is that big, blaring, obnoxious symp sound
going into the like chugging breakdown. It's so like, oh yeah,

(01:26:30):
this is twenty twelve melcore. Hell fucking yet, let's go.
But it is like again it's that is that quality
of like there's no there is nothing about this that
is like embarrassed or like, you know, not understanding the
electronics They are putting that front and center with this
huge symth hook coming straight in there into like dropping
to the breakdown immediately, and it's like, let's go. This

(01:26:51):
is not like it is as attention grabbing an intro
to an EPs you can get, isn't it.

Speaker 3 (01:26:56):
Like yeah, so this is my first time listening to
this in at least a decade. I don't want to say,
I might not even listen to it since twenty twelve,
And it's funny as someone who doesn't have that much
of a relationship with Cross Faith. As soon as that
sound came in, I was like, ah, it was a
happy time.

Speaker 1 (01:27:13):
You were happy back then.

Speaker 3 (01:27:16):
I felt like people look back at dubstep, is this
really cringey, like tacky, sort of stupid trend people having
a good time. And you listen to Monolith and it
sounds imperious where those invaders must die since coming in
the beat down, kind of acting as the bass drop
and just breaking up with those little dubstep eccentricties all
the little.

Speaker 1 (01:27:37):
It's so good.

Speaker 3 (01:27:39):
It's just like it had so much more fun and sparkle.
It's just the sound of a band. It's the thing
where that's a lot of electronic music can feel a
bit static because it's made in the studio and it's
built up from the ground and stuff. Just having those
little bits of ear candy to just peppy you with,
they make it feel alive. And I think that that's

(01:28:00):
why Cross Faith is kind of tasteful. Use of those
made them sound so fresh.

Speaker 1 (01:28:06):
Yeah, Monolith definitely feels like they've taken that Prodigy lesson
from a Omen and so on of like, here's a
synth line that a crowd is going to go mental to.

Speaker 2 (01:28:14):
They're gonna chant back and jump up and down to.

Speaker 1 (01:28:16):
Like yeah, and they let that synth kind of carry
the ear and the melody and then the metal core underneath.
It's just gonna like thug the shit out of you.
And Monolith is you know that moment of like, oh fuck,
the spaceship is coming into landing, you know, run for
your lives, and it is that sound like it was
from the future at the time, but it's that sort
of the rave electronica meets metal core destruction thing in
a very nice way. You're totally right, Like the synth

(01:28:40):
line that started is already massive, but when it goes
what is distorted Alien wrote is it's so stupid and freaky,
but I love it. It's like a time when the
gearishness of that dubstep in from what's really works. According
to streaming stats, that's the biggest song they've they've ever written.
Cross Faith never really or at least weren't at this

(01:29:01):
time a chorus band because like Clean, vocals were not
a huge part of the town at this point in time,
and there are there's you know, a couple of their
catches choruses are on the following up, Apocalysed, but it
wasn't really what they were kind of sold on. It
used to be more kind of even they did a
clean vocal off be a sort of like in that
kind of tradition of like big dance ray vocal sort

(01:29:22):
of vocal line rather than like a mettle core chorus.
Monolith again their biggest track, but it's not really a
chorus track that that's what sells you on it. It's
just a big synth moss tune and those kind of
insane gurgling electronic parts are the catchy parts.

Speaker 2 (01:29:37):
Weirdly, Yeah, I mean this now right like that to
me is still a chorus that is just stuck in
my head. But it's not that the vocals out of
the catch part there. It's all the simps can blaw
around inside it and the little like things. But yeah, no,
like at this point, they had like little kind of
like snippets of choruses that were kind of almost like
just shout along refrains you could kind of like latch

(01:29:59):
onto and Liveshood sort of like okay that that's sent
to the someone on that for a bit. But the
hooks were were the sims like so like again when
they bring back on that the kind of spoken bit
before the second version of that, do do do do that?
That that sort of simp that's like that going on.
So it was all just I guess it was just
all about the sort of the feeling of like a

(01:30:19):
musical hook and just a simp, drop, a riff, a
breakdown whatever to just bounce up and down to and
not really kind of like have to think too much
about what's being sung at you.

Speaker 3 (01:30:30):
I think that's that's completely right, and that, like you said,
not really having a central chorus that you know, you
could put on the radio or anything. I don't think
it really matters because each part of the song is
really catchy and there's so much, like I say, ear Candy,
I think even with the lack of chorus per se,
there's so much stuff happening which is just exciting on

(01:30:53):
the ears. Like I remember the first time I heard
bands chopping up the screams the way Cross got gap
and the first time he loads of bands do it now,
but it sounded so fresh in twenty twelve and if
you have enough of those moments that are memorable and
you string them together, you have a catchy song.

Speaker 1 (01:31:08):
Anyway. Yeah, I mean, it's my assessment that part of
cross Lay whole thing is that they've never really been
an album band. They've always kind of worked better in
smaller doses, and you know, and then you sort of
pull together the best bangers from it from that zion
as you know, a six track EP that happened to
catch them at the kind of point of their ascendency.
It is the rare case when an EP so completely

(01:31:30):
captured the essence of a band in its most powerful form,
in a way beyond you know, kind of the larger statements.
I think about Cross Faith and you know, again, the
first few traps on a CP really I think are
their peak. I've always really loved photos there on here
for kind of like that I think is probably my
favorite cross Face track, Like the more sort of melodic
direction that it has, but being so like like mushing

(01:31:52):
and two stepping the whole way anyway, but like it's
got the sort of the nintendoy sense that speak to
things I liked at the time, like the algorithm them
obviously there's that vague sort of anime jpop feeling that
you would end up getting from the likes of baby metal.
A lot of big metal songs abubly come after this
or it kind of sound like Photosphere, but the way
the synth line meets up with the melodic riff and
just sort of sends it on its way, it is

(01:32:14):
like fucking you know, absolutely get up and go. I mean,
was that a big track at kind of the live
shows like Long Left or Yeagerbomb.

Speaker 2 (01:32:19):
Was like at this time they were basically playing this
ep in full live kind of like chopped up the
order with like the odd older song thrown in but
foes Fear like that scene comes in and again I
love photos, So I think it's a really overlooked cross
save track, but like it's fully in on this sort
of like futuristic sci fi bleeps and bloops. But then
you get that the melodic symps lining up with the

(01:32:40):
guitar in a.

Speaker 1 (01:32:40):
Where that is really like, yeah, I love it.

Speaker 2 (01:32:42):
Just drives them for it, and you know it is
that kind of like J rock J pop kind of
like anime soundtrack, just like high energy all go all
the time, like and then it feels again like when
it feels like it's building up into like the breakdown,
and then it goes like wild rave part, which is
so again just so much more fun.

Speaker 1 (01:33:02):
Yeah, thinking about a song like that though, and when
I listed across this in general is from the modern day, right,
this is metalcore and it's melodic Naughty's metalcore style riffing
that's based on Melodeth, And like, I guess it makes
sense because you bring me at the time, you know,
suicide Season and there as a hell they still had
a little bit of that in them to some degree.
But there is something so incredibly twenty twelve like this

(01:33:26):
could not come out another time where they've taken what
would soon end up being a kind of archaic type
of metalcore riffing and put it against like ultra state
of the art dubstep gurgles, like the stuff that of
cross Face that kind of maybe be picked by other bands.
They would lose that kind of you know, old naughties
fucking at the gates riffing sort of style of it,

(01:33:46):
and they put it onto the sort of the modern
style of metal core riffing. It's this weird like in
between sort of you know epochs for the genre. It's
very fascinating.

Speaker 2 (01:33:56):
That kind of melodeth riffing is one of the things
I do love out Crosshof where again it shows that
they were like like he's actually the times of writing
proper league guitar lines and not it's again Monolith, you know,
it's all about that chug when when it drops. But
something like Photosphere it is way more melodic in its
riffing and way more interesting. And again we were at

(01:34:16):
the toning point where the biggest bands and they were
breaking were of mice and men were the bands who
were really starting to bring it to that just straight
chug sort of thing.

Speaker 1 (01:34:25):
Obvious Again, it's the year before some paternal drops, which
does kind of change everything.

Speaker 2 (01:34:28):
Yeah, so that's it is. This is this is like
the sort of like last gasp for a close to
a decade of the mellow death riffing in metalcore.

Speaker 3 (01:34:37):
It kind of reminded me of what park wead Driver
doing on Deep Blue, and I wonder if that sort
of muscular, snaking star riff maybe that's one of the
reasons they got over with people who could have been
skeptical about this sort of thing, you know, like you say,
having those tentacles still in Mellow Death and what was
sort of mid two thousands of metal cores and that

(01:34:57):
kind of thing, having a put in that. I mean,
I think some people who might have been put off
by the combination could still swallow the dubstep.

Speaker 1 (01:35:06):
Yeah, and I like that about this, but I also
think it's one of the things that dates it the most. Weirdly,
it's hearing the combination of those two things again big
dubstep with fucking kills, which engaged arrived metalcore ripping and
you go that had never happen again after this point.

Speaker 2 (01:35:19):
Makes it timeless to me almost because it is like
trying to do the most futuristic since we've the throw
back of like early metalcore and just coming together in
a way that just just pleases my ears. But I
do you completely see what you mean.

Speaker 1 (01:35:36):
I get an experience. Recently, have I listened to Apocalyis
for the first time in a long while, like as
an album And again I never called a cross off
an album band, but I always had that in my
mind as what maybe the best, if not.

Speaker 2 (01:35:46):
One, it's my favorite of their albums.

Speaker 1 (01:35:48):
Yeah, yeah, full length, and I do still think the
best handful of tracks on that are like among their
best ever songs. I was listening to it and I
was like, I used to hear these songs all the time,
and they sounded like what I took for granted as
normal I suppose at that point in time. But metalcore,
even without the rave sense, they're just the normal metal
band offf But it's not produced like that anymore. And
it's in a way, like, you know, the Union of

(01:36:08):
Crowns is a record that at the time was just
a popular metalcore record that in production now sounds like
no metalcore record released in the last ten years. And
it's really like raw and there's a kind of unhooned
edge to the guitars that's so unlike the whole sort
of modern octane era or the more Again sort of
not to lose aggressive hardcore side of it now. And

(01:36:28):
I'm not necessarily saying this as a positive or in negative.
It's just an observation of how sort of weird it
sounds today. It's like revisiting the Again apocalyze. I actually thought,
almost how sort of beyond its means. It kind of
sounds like they're trying to pile so much into that
record without actually, you know, necessarily perfectly mixing it all together,
and it kind of is like an assault on the
ears at times.

Speaker 2 (01:36:48):
That's really one of the things that's made the albums
never quite land because again they do, of course, that
is like when they become everyone just for like, oh,
just do the Cynthi Bravey metalcore thing, and that they do,
but they would pile so much more in and it
would throw people off and some of those decisions were
better for out than others. Some of their albums have
weird choices to do a piano ballad and stuff like that,

(01:37:10):
but they were always have one who did just try
and pile every idea they had onto their releases, and
I guess with and it works because it is just okay,
you've got six songs to to pill the end because again,
like this EP though for six songs of electro metalcore,
still covers a real bass because like we're talking about
like so far, that goes into Yaegabon, which is just

(01:37:30):
like like groove metal party track of the twenty ten's
in it.

Speaker 3 (01:37:36):
That is the song that I thought this could not
happen outside of twenty twelve.

Speaker 2 (01:37:41):
You can't write a song called Jaegebob outside of twenty twelve.

Speaker 1 (01:37:43):
Ever, like the holes that jaeger Mister had on metal
in the twenty ten Like I remember seeing pictures of
bands like Cross Faith and not Defiled as well. They
a big reputation for it. It's like, well, they spotsored
all of.

Speaker 2 (01:37:53):
Them, didn't they They they were all their backdrops and the.

Speaker 1 (01:37:58):
Pictures of like crazy live shows, and they'd be like,
you know AVD from the Devar, we were standing on
the bar drinking from a Yeager bottle or something. It's
like just down to its very branding jager Bomb. The
song speaks to a very specific early twenty tens culture.

Speaker 2 (01:38:12):
Good times.

Speaker 3 (01:38:13):
It's so funny, you said, because I thought I was
gonna be the only one that had that recollection.

Speaker 1 (01:38:16):
But no, absolutely, the.

Speaker 3 (01:38:18):
Early twenty tens Jaegermeister is just inextricably linked. Just just
remember like all the bands, all the party bands were
drinking it. I remember just seeing on like on drumheads
and stuff. It was, yeah, you can't even imagine that
you would get every band as well into Foster's.

Speaker 2 (01:38:33):
You got the Jogermeister tour that ghost headlined, like yeah,
it was like a big branding thing that would responds
all these things, and like, I mean, I have such
fond memories of that. Like, but Jaeger one was a
song to me. It's just like God, this song had
be in a chokehold like for like two years of

(01:38:53):
just like if I was a house party and like
this song would we had have like players on Spotify.
If this song came on, everyon would run and just
pour as many shots of like Yeager bombs as they could,
and we would just drink about it. And it was
just like it had to be done. It was just
the thing at the time.

Speaker 3 (01:39:08):
It's just it's funny because I wonder if one of
the reasons why Cross Faith maybe sort of didn't stick
around in the public construt so much was because it
was hard to tell how serious and how silly they were.
At least that's my perception of because you listen to
the first two songs and it's a very convincing rendition
of the combination of dubstep and metalcore, which you know,
to some people might just be silly anyway. But then

(01:39:31):
track three out of Nowhere is just a song about
Jaeger bombs, and I kind of I kind of love
that Again, I've said it before, I long for Wind.
Bands would just write songs about anything and all things,
and it would kind of be wrong if the premiere
dubstep metalcore band didn't have a song called yeager Bomb.

Speaker 2 (01:39:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:39:49):
You know, the riff is straight up like pan Terra,
you know, not groom like yeah, and not like really brutal,
fucking mean Pantera that A lot of bands since maybe
have taken more. It's like wing and fun. Yeah. Yeah,
It's like a riff that you can imagine writing and
then going like, yeah, okay, this is obviously the party
tune to the point that, like in the song itself,
you know, there's less synthos and stuff like that on it.

(01:40:09):
It's more so just kind of let the the rock
speaker itself. But it is tie to I don't know,
the party bands and the act of partying was just
bigger in twenty twelve than it is today, and the
bizarrely iconic in its scene moment of the don't you
take that drink and hug it like it's so so
twenty twelve.

Speaker 2 (01:40:30):
You said there's less simps, but I mean after that
riff comes in and within that second you've got that,
so let's get down into that symptom over the rift,
Like you can't get more properly. I mean, this is
a song where the moss call in this song for
the breakdown is just going I would see you fucking move.
It's so just dumb, stupid, but just like shameless and

(01:40:54):
fun and I again just makes me smile. Is a
happy place this.

Speaker 1 (01:41:00):
And then Quasar is the song where it's like, right
now we're going to explode the heads of the elderly.
Like just the song that is so in the way
that like scrill X was on, like the Scary Monster
ZP kind of O T T and aggressive and kind
of turning heads. We're gonna make it unbearable for people
who aren't down. You know, I like it. You know,
it's got a really imposing nature of the guitarists, but

(01:41:20):
the dubstep breakdown in that is so obnoxious.

Speaker 2 (01:41:24):
So yeah, cra is that again the most I've even
those overt kind of group up. Quas is like, right,
we're going to go for the most over the top
doubstepbbs that have ever existed.

Speaker 3 (01:41:37):
Again, I don't know if it's just I was the
right age at the right time, but that sound just
tickles me still, just like dubstep bass drops, like the
more obnoxious the better.

Speaker 1 (01:41:45):
I mean.

Speaker 3 (01:41:45):
It was actually a bit of a thing at my
school where people were trying to find the most ridiculous
step bass drop. It was just this one up which
I think we tapped out. It was Knife Party Centerpede
and after that was just.

Speaker 1 (01:41:57):
A good one, isn't it.

Speaker 2 (01:41:58):
That is a very sick thing again with like the
early reason of dubsteps. And I was gonna be like,
oh the suicide's in cut up sleep with want to
open one? That's the hardest dumb steps Rebone in the group, weren't.

Speaker 3 (01:42:09):
I like a better time? But yeah, this is one
of the songs where I think, yeah, metal core and
dubstep natural bedfellows, Like they they go into a bass
drop almost instead of a beatdown. It's kind of merely
accented by the guitars and it feels totally right, I think.
I don't know, it's funny that this song is one
of the ones that doesn't seem to be as popular
on streaming because I just I listened to this and think,

(01:42:30):
if you like cross Faith, this is the ultimate one.

Speaker 1 (01:42:34):
I think that combination more of a brutal track. Then
you know, they're kind of like maybe catchy party ones,
even calling to six track EP maybe slightly exaggerated because
dialogue is a glorified interlude, though it's still complete with
brilliant rave synthlies. Yeah, you kind of worry it'll be
like this could be an ambient song and then no,
it's like you are you are glow stick and couraged
throughout that interlude. The last track, Leviathan, I think for

(01:42:55):
some reason was this was the track that I listened
to the least of these back in the day.

Speaker 2 (01:42:59):
That shocks me so much, because like when I think
about like the Crosstreads song that has a random black
metal blast in the middle of it.

Speaker 1 (01:43:07):
Yeah, I mean I was as susceptual to the hits
as anyone, I suppose, But going back to it now,
it's like again the riff, it's it's like unearthed and
fucking as I lay dying. Yeah, And it's funny how
I didn't realize it at the time, but now with distance,
you recognize the ties that this had to a previous
era of metalcore that we have now like almost wholly lost.
I do like the kind of daft Castlevania bit that
they put into the chorus and then again the full

(01:43:29):
like blast beat to complete that old school melody feeling
really hard breakdown as well. Again, it's it's a track
that makes you go, not only was this at the
time in the future, it's also now the past to
say something extremely profound and not at all stupid selection
of words.

Speaker 2 (01:43:46):
I mean, I think the Viathin is one of those
like really overlooked crossover songs that kind of goes like
there was way more to this than just big, dumb
blowing simps, where it is then trying to do like
a just sort of big meal somengwhere like you've got
that extreme male blast, you've got those real mellow death
riffs and all that, like the cars of Ania things. Yeah,
but then it just builds to this like big crescenda

(01:44:07):
were like fudding arena rock drums and like simps swelling
all over it, and it is like they clearly had,
you know, desires to write more than just big dumb
party tunes.

Speaker 1 (01:44:17):
Yeah, and I guess the EP was the sort of
perfect pitch to sell Cross Faith to the world. A
concentrated blast of their best material at the right time
in terms of the innovations and what kind of experience
we wanted to hear. And again, the reason we've done
this is the album Club, even though it's only an EP,
is the next several years. Whenever you bring up Cross Faith,
people would always reference back to the Zion EP. It's

(01:44:39):
almost like the Devil Word Prada and the Zombie EP.
You know. And like I said before, I'm not trying
to write cross faf off because because I like them
and I think it's a bit disrespectful, But I do
think from an academic point of view, going back to
this and remembering Cross Faith open for bringing the horizon
send paternal arena to all, which now you'd imagine the
band in the symple of position would be like a
fucking bad omens or someone right like is a bit
of like holy shit, you might not necessarily remember Cross

(01:45:03):
Faith being in the positions that they were at this
point in time, and thinking about an era when Cross
Faith were buzzy and a major part of the zeitgeist.
Next two bands who now are maybe more regular established
as like arena headliners or whatever, it feels a little
bit detached. Even though they have to put out a
song with orgasm. But what's your take on I guess
reflecting on you know that era compared to where we

(01:45:24):
are now, well, I mean, like.

Speaker 2 (01:45:25):
Again like Cross Faith twenty twelve, they were the band
like you know, you hear festival sets where the room
was overpassing, people were fighting to get in. That was
Cross Theft when they played the first Warped u K
and they were put down on like the tiny little
basement room and it was like chaos trying again in
that room. It was that was the demand to see
them at that point, and it was It did just
feel like I think they were almost in a bit

(01:45:46):
of a disservice by the buzz that kind of built
up around them where people did like the curse thing
of saying, oh they could be the next Slipknot or
and like Hyperblia that which again just sets a bar
there they're never gonna live up to. But it is
just like it's passing to talk about that. That Like, yeah,
they were from again about a two year period the

(01:46:07):
hot thing in metalcore, and it wasn't it wasn't just
immediately burnt out on this EP. I do think that
carries through to apocolyise when they're like selling out the
cocon putting one of the most insane live shows I've
ever seen in that venue. But it just it did
feel like it was like just a moment in time.
I guess, I want to look at cross rof now,
I was just like capturing some like just mad lightning
in the bottle for like a two year period that

(01:46:28):
took them. They were put on all the festival main stages.
They were real. There's a real big push around them,
and I guess I guess it ties into the sort
of the fickle media of like we've given you your push,
we haven't seen the immediate rewards from it, or back
to the to the back of the line you go.
And I guess that's why. Of course, if now were
just going to see themselves as just a meticore band

(01:46:48):
who's sort of a decent following but are never going
to be again like that, they were like, you're right,
they were the bad omens of twenty twelve. Almost.

Speaker 3 (01:46:57):
Yeah, I think as cool as the CP is, it's
not it's not too surprising that the phenomenon was short
lived because you sort of said a few times they
were drawing on a style of metalcore that was very
quickly going to become unfashionable and dubstep, you know, even
by like twenty fifteen, dubstep was a complete line.

Speaker 1 (01:47:14):
I think even just the party culture that they were
sort of around I think be unfashionable.

Speaker 2 (01:47:18):
That's why I think they tried to get more serious
and write piano ballads and and do more traditional metal
core choruses on. From Zeno onwards, the albums did try
to kind of still keeping that electro metalcore thing, but
they had to kind of like conform to a bit
more of a typical metal core formula.

Speaker 1 (01:47:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:47:38):
I think they were a really exciting combination, a really
exciting combination of the right stuff at the right time.
But almost all of the things that they were drawing
from individually fell by the wayside in a couple of years.
And I mean maybe some bands could survive that, but
I mean, like you say, the whole the party culture,

(01:47:58):
the esthetic of the band and stuff like it feels
so perfectly suited for its time, and when things are
so different even five years later, it's kind of too
much to ask of anyone to catch up to that.

Speaker 1 (01:48:11):
Yeah, And like I said, I do think that they
did their best work in sort of smaller doses. The
albums started to become you know, good, but like I think,
just kind of old news to a degree. I think,
you know, the Zeno album, I mean it was primarily
sold on Wildfire with Skindred the mashup of the century,
but I do think there are probably less standout songs

(01:48:32):
on that album than there were even on this six
track ep X Machina in twenty eighteen. Again, that's the
last full length right now they are They've got an
album coming up, but that's a you know, a wild
gap that we're talking about now, and I remember, you know,
liking it and you know, looking at the first half,
the first run of songs on it are pretty good.
But like I said, I don't think they were ever
an album band, and by the end of forty five

(01:48:53):
minutes you're normally a little sort of like partied out,
And I don't know if there were ever sort of
breakout hits amongst that sort of later bunch, like like
a Monolith or whatever is from here, And I think
them it just became one of those things that kind
of became them turning up and being reliable, but while
never releasing albums that lit the world on fire that much,

(01:49:15):
it kind of became more routine. And I think that's
always just sort of the the inevitable fate for one
of these type bands if they aren't able to sort
of punch above that.

Speaker 2 (01:49:23):
No, I agree, I like again, I still really like
all the albums, but I do think they just they
sailed into the sort of the like twins when we
look at some like the noise bands, when you know,
you say, oh, Unearth reliably turn up and or be
good and we'll have a great time with them. And
I said the wand to fire across for almost like
the twenty tens electronic metalcore on Earth in that kind
of way.

Speaker 1 (01:49:44):
Yeah, I mean I think particularly, you know, after that
last album, they released the whole string of EPs, and
it's like they were like around too much yet not
enough at the same time. Somehow bizarre, some of these
EPs are really good. I think it was one before
the last album, Age Warriors or someth that song rock
Star Steady on it which had not make to the album,
but it's got the robot voice chorus, so that's one
of the most fun things ever did. But yeah, I

(01:50:05):
just I do think they are. I mean, even the
Prodigy fell out of favor to a degree. It's like
Invaders Die were fucking everywhere, and then by the Day
as My Enemy, and then particularly the album you Know
after that is kind of a Prodigy a sort of
around again. And I think maybe if the Prodigy are
falling out of favor, maybe cross Faith is going to
follow in a sort of inevitable degree. Even Skin dread albums,
you know, as a similar or live band. You know,
they became a live band that people cared about more

(01:50:26):
than they actually cared about the music, and that, yeah,
doesn't always spell success. And that again, their best records
I think are you know this EP and then Apocalyze.
But you listen to them day and they're so ramshackle.
It's like in the year since it's almost been overwritten
by a different kind of sound. You know, they're slightly cheap,
and they're slightly you know, it's just it's really far

(01:50:48):
away from the current zeitgeist of popular medical. Weirdly, today,
they seem more like a product of Japan than they
felt in twenty twelve, because they were more relatable to
the state of metal as a whole at the time. Yeah,
now it's like, oh shit, Cross Faith coming over from
Japan and doing that thing.

Speaker 2 (01:51:03):
Yeah, I see, I mean there, I mean, like, I
don't know. I still think like this EP and apocas
they sing about that just again just sounds bizarrely timeless
to me because it doesn't sound like it's so and thirty,
but it's so like think about what metal would sound
like in the year twenty ninety nine, Like just and
that to me is like really charming.

Speaker 3 (01:51:25):
Yeah, I think. I think going back to these I
get a similar feeling as I do going to back
some Skin Dread records of that time. To be honest,
where and Skin Dread have got a very you know,
number two album last year. You know, they're not fallen
off by any means, but there was a particular feeling
around rock and metal and the kind of culture surround

(01:51:47):
it around this time, which I just think is is
kind of gone now and so it's nice to revisit it.
But they would they would have to change so much
to adapt to the current zeitgeist in rock and meld
that they kind of cease to be Cross Faith.

Speaker 1 (01:52:01):
Yeah, but we do still when a particular kind of
rave metalcore sound comes up in conversation with band maybe
trying it's something in that direction. We still name drop
them quite a bit in terms of, you know, bands
doing the cross lay thing, right.

Speaker 2 (01:52:15):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean it's one of the things I
that I banged on about when bringing with their Eyes
and dropped out Bay and I was just like, this
is a cross safe song. None of you would be
giving it any good, but because of doing this thing
the better. At that exact moment, I was just like, whatever.

Speaker 3 (01:52:32):
Yeah, I think I think they still exist as a
kind of for me. They're a comfort because, as I
said earlier that fusion of styles is one of the
great missed opportunities of the last twenty years of rock music,
and Cross Faith being the one that did it well
maybe outside of a Narcisstic cannibal by Corn and I

(01:52:54):
don't think anyone else really had a decent.

Speaker 1 (01:52:56):
Go at it.

Speaker 3 (01:52:57):
So just having this zion ep in my life is
kind of enough to.

Speaker 1 (01:53:04):
To tide me over at least. Yeah, I personally, I
don't see much of a future where Cross Faith become
a big deal again. I think their beast material is
very tight to memories of the era in which it
was spawned and I certainly. I don't know if I
want to hear Cross Faith doing a kind of TikTok
hyper pop thing like you know again the New Brimmy
record or whatever, but their place in the history of

(01:53:24):
the subgenre is certainly any to a small degree, it
is certainly there. So that is a reassessment of the
Zion EP and Cross Faith and that whole era of
early twenty tens rave metalcore, dubstep culture. I'm glad that
we introduced that EP into your life, Elliott, if that's
the kind of slice of history that you needed. Third
album Club, we get to have heart and we're going
to scream some songs at the sun as promised. You know,

(01:53:46):
we did American Football last time in this corner. We
actually had two outbreak headliner album clubs to get out
of the way before the festival, which obviously, you know,
many people out there won't share, but for me, I mean,
I'm not going to the festival this year anyway. But
it's interesting. Two of the three headliners are bands who
I had not all that much experience with musically, and

(01:54:06):
I was sort of blank slate on them, which is
why I thought it'd be interested in with these album
clubs Have Heart, while you know America foot was obviously
it's the emo legend choice, and so I kind of
know what you know before doing it and knew what
they were. Have Heart got a huge reaction from the
hardcore faithful, and it seems like when it comes to
twenty first century hardcore, they are genuinely like one of
the biggest and most seminal names in the genre. I mean,

(01:54:27):
like literally, I think it was yesterday as we were
preparing this, Colin Jung posted a meme of the album
color with his face like over the kids, like, so
it's a thing, you know this album at SAM you
were very excited about Have Heart. So where does your
relationships start? Because I get the impression that Have Heart work.
We're quite formative for a particular generation, maybe more so
in America, but to some degree a universal.

Speaker 2 (01:54:49):
Well obviously I go into hardcore a good few years
after Have Hearted split, So they were one of those
bands who's kind of like there was a bit of
a legend around them. I think when I was kind
of getting into hard because obviously when I got talking
as one particular, I really gravitate to a lot of
the melodic hardcore bands of the twenty tens are like

(01:55:09):
and Have Heart are the kind of like Bastion that
that is held up as kind of like the peak
of what melodic hardcore in the two thousands was. So
they were this like revered legendary band that you kind
of like a lot of the band's highlights were like
clearly all really inspired by and so that's when I like,
you know, the covered songs. To Scream at the Sun

(01:55:32):
was kind of one of those ever gonna that's one
of those legendary albums when you see at the record
shop kind of go ah, that's that one. And so
all of that kind of build meant I was like,
I guess primed to like latch on to Have Heart
and kind of be like, well, I'm never gonna get
to see them. They've broken up and so but they
were just you know, this really important bands. Of course
I'm gonna love what they're doing.

Speaker 1 (01:55:51):
Yeah, And it's funny you say about that sort of
arts the legendary album at the time, this would have
been like two three years old, right.

Speaker 2 (01:55:57):
Like the first thing, it's already built up that, yeah,
there was, and again this one's going to go onto
that I think like the aura of this album almost
probably exists because of how so shortly after it they were.

Speaker 1 (01:56:09):
Done Elliot any relation at all to have.

Speaker 3 (01:56:12):
Heart, well, yeah, but only in the aftermath of then
reforming in twenty nineteen. I feel hardcore was one of
those genres where you think you know all there is
to know and you're all caught up, and then a
band will reform and it'll be like, oh no, they're
one of the most popular, influential, significant bands in the
history of the genre. You go, I have literally never
heard their name once, and I don't know how I

(01:56:33):
avoided it. When haw Heart came back.

Speaker 1 (01:56:36):
In yeah, I was twenty nineteen.

Speaker 3 (01:56:37):
Yeah, and then I was a run of big shows
for a hardcore hardcourse.

Speaker 2 (01:56:42):
However, like allegedly kind of like branded as yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:56:46):
Just it's I mean, that's like if a metal band
returned and we're doing four nights at Wembley Stadium and
you'd never heard of them. It's just like you think
I thought I was.

Speaker 1 (01:56:55):
I was in on this.

Speaker 3 (01:56:56):
I felt like a fraud and a buffoon, and I
went and checked out this record and I felt like
even more of a fraud and numberfoon because a lot
of hardicles not normally my sort of thing, but this
is probably one of my favorite records in that sector
of hardcore.

Speaker 1 (01:57:12):
I had a very similar reaction to you when those
Readians happened, because again, it was a moment for me
of realizing I didn't know as much about hardcore as
I thought I did, I guess because and again it
sounds weird because they're such a popular band, right huge,
But when they did that reunion show, I was really
taken aback by this gargantuan wave of like freaking out.
And then again, like the outdoor show in Muster there
was attended by like eight thousand people or something. Banana,

(01:57:34):
there's a number of people for a hardcore show. It's
like a very small arena show or something. Comparatively, it
wasn't a festival like an Outbreak or something. It's just
one band's headline.

Speaker 2 (01:57:43):
Big outdoor showing a car park essentially, and.

Speaker 1 (01:57:46):
I had the exact same thing. I remember seeing videos
of it, and it was like being shown something that
was happening that I just never heard of somehow, and
I think looking at it, they broke up in twent
two thousand and nine, I must have just missed the
cutoff point, and somehow their legends just didn't get handed
over to me in the same way. Kind of during
the twenty tens.

Speaker 2 (01:58:02):
You had to be like into hardcore, I think, yeah,
deep in the trenches on hardcore to like have the
legend of Have Heart kind of cross over to you,
because I think they were so huge, but they were
so tied to that scene and not crossing beyond it exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:58:16):
You know, obviously at the time that you were getting
into Have Heart, I was when I was getting into
the bads like Hate Breed or whatever, And obviously after
that we'd have Turnstile and Have Heart. Don't have any
sort of prominent breakout out of hardcore, I suppose, But
basically I remember that happening and feeling again really out
of touch, and I was like, okay, like I may
have gone back and listened to like Snapcase or whatever,
and I've gone and explored maybe eighties hardcore when maybe
not every contemporary hardcore fan has. But somehow this huge

(01:58:39):
thing in this different corner of hardcore just didn't come
my way. And now it's back. Their classic album has
been supplied by Sam as a song Scrept the Sun
Unlike You, Elliott where you went and immediately this became
a favorite of yours. I have never listened to some
prior to this, so this is a totally a new
new discoveries for me essentially.

Speaker 2 (01:59:01):
I mean, knowing how you've reacted to like melodic hardcore
that I hold so dearly the past, like I always
would like this is what I was, just like I
would obviously you as like hating this or would be
a bit like the Modern Life is War album, because
again they're quite tied into.

Speaker 1 (01:59:18):
That is exactly one of the comparison points I had. Yeah, yeah,
well they're they're they're.

Speaker 2 (01:59:21):
From the same Boston hardcore scene essentially.

Speaker 1 (01:59:23):
Like yeah, it's it's you know, Boston straight edge band.
And again recently, you know, we were in the Nail
Special and I was listening to straight edge stuff like
carry On and stuff like that, and that's what I've
maybe had in my mind before going in to this.
But I guess, you know, the Boston scene was sort
of resurging at the point in time. You know, you've
had bands like Bane and so on, and then as
you say, kind of bands like a defeat from kind

(01:59:45):
of around.

Speaker 2 (01:59:45):
There that same area, Like they're they're they're like just
like they're coming along sort of latent to Have Hearts
kind of like prominence, yeah, and again sort of looking
at reference points, Have Heart kind of formed playing more
of a sort of youth crew style, which is of
that again eighties hardcore and classic era hardcore. Maybe the
point I have sort of some of the least connection

(02:00:06):
with you know your ether today, but where that sort
of goes, it's not really my world. But Have Heart
seemed to move on from that fairly quickly and took
on a much more dynamic direction. They actually only have
two albums to choose from. Prior album, The Things We Carry. Uh,
what is it that makes this the one over that?
I mean, depending on who you asked, I don't know

(02:00:28):
if there's actually like a universally agreed upon classic album,
Like I always kind of went for this one because
it was the one that was more prominently Like again,
you saw the album cover of the kids screaming everywhere,
and it felt like the one that like people who
missed out Have Heart because it was the final one
that's don't do first. But The Things We Carry are
still almost equally as highly regarded as a melodic hardcore,

(02:00:50):
like touched and that everyone needs to listen to.

Speaker 1 (02:00:53):
Yeah, and there's also this is the Fiddlehead Guy, isn't
it who? I guess I would have actually had exposure
to before this because they up sort of the mid
twenty tenth, didn't they. When it comes to sitting down
and familiarizing myself with a hardcore album, I don't know,
especially one of a real classic status. Seeing a twenty
one minute runtime really is like, okay, a easy going
on me, not that much definitely as myself with. But

(02:01:14):
also this thing made an impact on people and became
really important to people in a minimal amount of time,
which you know, with this kind of straight edge hardcore
you can normally expect that. But what made this a
kind of you know, such a a high class example
of what you can pull off in that kind of
time frame.

Speaker 2 (02:01:32):
I think they were like one of the first ones
to really like specialize in storytelling within hardcore. I think
that that's the thing that like have heart have is
say that, but like they like even on the things
with Carries, well they are they were storytellers. They were,
and again I love like Ladyspute two Shame or a Defeat,
like all those bands that took that on. But have

(02:01:54):
Heartwall that I think one of the ones who really
show that you could do that within hardcore, do that
within songs barely stretch over two minutes, fit these like
emostly pained and sort of fraught stories into fiery, like
hatey hardcore songs, and do it all in a twenty
one minute record.

Speaker 3 (02:02:12):
I think that was the thing that struck me about
how Heart when I first got into them, was like,
hardcore bands don't normally have like a novelty or a
gimmick the way a lot of big rock or metal
bands do. They seem kind of resistant, allergic to it.
But a lot of the popular bands there at least
trailblazers in some way, whether it's like bad Brains or
turnstyle or hate breed conversile like, it's kind of it's

(02:02:34):
clear what their contribution is. And Have Heart it wasn't really.
It just seems to be they wrote brilliant songs that
speak to people and continue to resonate, and I mean,
in many ways, that's the best way to be a
popular band, and I think that's why people have stuck
around and got so excited when they came back, because
other bands might play it, but they don't have this

(02:02:57):
collection of songs, so it's kind of hard to say
what is the thing.

Speaker 1 (02:03:01):
It's just kind of them. Yeah, and again this record
did not exactly fit my expectations because again I was
going in thinking about straight edge hardcore carry one minutes, yeah,
twenty one minutes, you know, like again Baine as a
Boston band around prior to them and stuff, and then
I ended up thinking more about you know, those other

(02:03:21):
bands you've just mentioned, and maybe Have Heart is sort
of a point. It's like, how do you get from
Bain to like Defeat or something. Maybe you have Heart
is sort of the bridge because it, you know, the
first song is sub one minute long, but it's got
a grandeur to it, and especially coming off that first
album as well, I think this really is like a
scene setter, and the way that Pat delivers those lyrics
at the start, the story of the kind of the

(02:03:42):
same song Fromis.

Speaker 2 (02:03:43):
Your Son, like all that sort of stuff.

Speaker 1 (02:03:45):
Yeah, it's it's introspective, but in a really intense fucking way.
And then you get Boston's and that's not full on speed.
It's quite fuggish at the start, but then the melodic
kind of yearning quality really needs to come out, and
I don't know when you finally get like a full
skate punk type pace. You're two minutes into the album,
which is about ten percent of overall things, And in

(02:04:07):
a weird sort of way, this album does kind of
make you work for it and exercise some kind of
patients even inside the tiny package that it.

Speaker 2 (02:04:13):
Is, well that's it, there is like actual kind of
nuance Like this album They Like Things We Carry is
kind of a lot more all pace. It's still got
that emotional kind of power that storytelling. There are most
such slows down a bit, but this is one where they,
I guess, start to play a bit more with like
texture within the kind of logic Podcole setting of like
having softer moments, having kind of like slow and fast,

(02:04:35):
fresh and port and showing that they can have that
softer side really put front and center and not feel
any less of a hardcore band.

Speaker 3 (02:04:45):
I think one of the cool things about their sound
as well is that you can hear every single moving part,
which again a lot of hardcore bands. It's not a criticism.
They can often just lock in and kind of you know,
single minded killing machine. The cool thing about the band
and particularly this record is they sound more intense because
you can hear each moving part but also softer in

(02:05:08):
a weird way. It almost just sounds more dynamic just
by virtue of how it's produced, because something like Boston's,
like the drums are so full of energy, and the
bass you can hear the weight it's adding to the riff,
and then the vocals are that perfect balance between catharstity
and control. It's kind of a masterclass in good performance

(02:05:30):
in a hardcore band, because you know, a lot of
it could just be so scrappy and aggressive. Just go
for the throat and that's that's got a thrill of
its own. But there's a like you say, it's a grandeur,
a sense of scale without needing synths or even samples
or anything like that to build a world around it.

Speaker 1 (02:05:47):
Yeah, and there is that much more emotional hardcore element
that wasn't necessarily expecting. And the way in that song
they put the focus entirely on that vocal and that
kind of so I could be the boy you couldn't
be part that is again, it's much more kin too
those bad like Modern Life is War that we've we've
spoken about and then it really builds a crescendo around
that and makes that a really key moment. And you
know that your friends say, Boston's beautiful, but they didn't
hide here, they didn't cry here where little boys aren't

(02:06:09):
allowed to shed their tears. The way the story of
that song kind of builds on that is like affecting
in a way that uh, maybe again imagu my my
different expectations, but uh, I wouldn't expect him to think
about feelings basically what I'm getting here, And suddenly I was.

Speaker 2 (02:06:26):
Well, I think that, Like that's again one of the
things that does that people why people connected with this
album was it was it did like the story is
being told. You know that there's silly cuts of thing
of like looking out against like generations and talks and
masculinity and how that's really well written song and people
latch onto that. And so these songs are gonna again
in a heart you know in hardcore scene, which is

(02:06:47):
particularly again two thousands is going to be all about
masculinity and toughness and feelings like weren't really taking off
in hardcore, so for about it have heart to put
that so front and center and kind of like not
shy away from like the hurt that they're feeling and
how like masculinely the pain it's cause, as well as
like looking at like the problems within the town of

(02:07:09):
like homeless and all that sort of thing. People are
going to buy into and believe that they can be
vulnerable in a way that they couldn't before.

Speaker 3 (02:07:17):
Yeah, I think the lyrics are one of the main
selling points for me on this record, On that Bird
in the Cage, which is the first half of my
favorite section of the record, this and the song that
follows it, But like the set of lyrics that goes
there's a feeling assign me that something's leaving, like someone'
stealing salt from the sea left me sinking, left me
thinking how to keep.

Speaker 1 (02:07:35):
You cage with me?

Speaker 3 (02:07:37):
That's the sort of like poignant, self pitying breakup song
that still sounds tough, and I think that's again something
that could go over with people because it in a
way it sounds sort of self pitting but also threatening,
and it's amazing they're else to strike that balance in
pretty simple lyrics are easily translatable to anyone listening.

Speaker 1 (02:07:58):
Yeah, I think definitely that the song I picked out
in terms of the compelling out of poetry as well.
And it's a really mature song about kind of like
separation and not acting possessively over a female partner. And
again you can just imagine how many people felt they
needed that kind of song. And I'm picking up that
have Heart almost became this band with a reputation of
being like a life coach and kind of pointing you

(02:08:18):
the way out. This is how you act as a man,
you know, kind of tell you what you need to hear.
And there's much more delicate language us than if you
compare it to it again like your hate Breed goes
inside sort of run through walls type thing, which I
suppose again made him right filler that kind of thing,
But it is, you know, there's a weird sort of
reputation to have of being like a pousey band. But
the record is kind of miserable. But it's I suppose

(02:08:39):
finding your way through it.

Speaker 2 (02:08:41):
That's it is. It's kind of like it is fraud.
It's painful like, but you get someone like Paved Paradise,
which is almost when you look at the like the
classic cliche of hating where you come from and wanting
to get out and find somewhere better. But it is
just delivered in a way that feels more genuine and
lesskind of like, oh, I'm so anger my home, turn
to hate it, like there is again there's a poetry

(02:09:02):
to his lyricism that makes it more kind of like
I guess it's it just feels that there's more nuance
and there's something you can then latch onto it and
find that posted and find those kind of life messages
and lessons to take from this rather than just kind
of like everything.

Speaker 1 (02:09:17):
Yeah, and it's not just the kind of motivational thing,
you know, like it's it's deeply about you know, family trauma,
you know, reference to alcoholism.

Speaker 2 (02:09:26):
Dealing with fraught topics that that people would have dealt
with and maybe not felt. Again, there were turns of
hardcores like like a vent for their anger or something
of that. But then this is kind of like there's
another way you know, to process this in yeah manners like.

Speaker 1 (02:09:40):
I don't know if those topics were necessarily usual hardcore fodder.
And this is it's not a confrontational record as much
as it is sort of you know, confronting your feelings.
You know, the title you know songs Scream of the Sun.
It feels like it should be like a big Cathar
yell it all out, but it is again very you

(02:10:00):
know grim in places.

Speaker 3 (02:10:03):
Yeah, there's a weird oxymoron where when you make lyrics
more specific, they can be more relatable. And that thing
we were saying earlier about metalcore bands who just make
it so vague that you don't even know what they're
describe it. It's like you don't really feel like, at
least I don't really feel like I can connect to that.
Whereas if someone's being really specific, it might alienate some people,

(02:10:25):
but if it does speak to you, it really does
sound like it's targeted at you.

Speaker 1 (02:10:30):
And it's funny.

Speaker 3 (02:10:32):
I just like you say, having kind of more nuanced,
kind of vivid imagery in the lyrics just makes it
feel fresh and more personal. And I think that's why
this record again connects with people and feels kind of timeless.

Speaker 1 (02:10:48):
Yeah, like pay Paradise is kind of it's got a
punk beat at the start that to me would normally
suggest something kind of you know, zippy and uplifting. Maybe
if some big moodic guitars would to come in, but
any grim and kind of fullow and his voice has
this really dark, kind of hurting quality to it, like
it's hurting to kind of get these these words out.
How big a moment in the live shows is that
kind of that breakdown of like you know, the pay paradise,

(02:11:09):
put the keys and start the engine. That really feels
like a you know, like.

Speaker 2 (02:11:13):
But I've watched like the videos of their final show
and it is again it's those are of moments where
like bodies upon bodies are piling on each other to
just like everyone has to be involved and and that's
it like that that they're really goot those sort of
like building kind of emotional everyone is now screaming this
and venting at every bit of pain and feeling they have,
and that again, that's where like the magic of this

(02:11:35):
album comes from, where you can just like let it
all out and just feel better as a result.

Speaker 1 (02:11:41):
Yeah, bird the what's it called the bird song? Bird
in the Cage is Yeah, maybe again like track four
on the album, maybe maybe the first point actually expected
of kind of like oh yeah, there's that melodic guitar
like on that kind of pace, but it's still very
plugged into kind of the emotive folks of the album
Brotherly Love, like you could tell how that starts, You
could tell me it was just a full on emo track,

(02:12:02):
and I would have believed you, you know, like and
that is all hinged on that kind of desperate grieving
cry of that you know, a brother, you leaping like
blood from my veins and yeah, it's not at all
about the mosh. And even a song that's called a
Taste of the Floor that's fifty three seconds long where
you should go, oh yeah, floor punch, right, that should
be the most ignorant song on the record, but it's not.
It's it's like a little existential crisis inside fifty three seconds.

Speaker 2 (02:12:25):
Yeah, I mean probably love is might be my favorite
song on this on this album is like those like
oh that's where you said that they can go soft
and still like feel vulnerable in a way that is
confessional but relatable. Like again that that like I said that,
I'd probably be like bluff in my veins. It's it's

(02:12:47):
like desperately sad, but in a way that it's not
like pitiable, but it is just so raw and like
connects in like such a genuine that like those ones
are that where they do just pull that out, No Roses,
No Skies. There is another one where again that's got
a bit more pace at times, but.

Speaker 1 (02:13:04):
That's a song where I really got those defeat of vibes,
like that kind of brooding and pensive but at a
high speed.

Speaker 2 (02:13:10):
Yeah, that's the idea is where they're doing that but
at that punk pace and it's like, it's just a
sound that I will never tire of it. He's so
hits the spot.

Speaker 1 (02:13:19):
For me, there is no sky.

Speaker 3 (02:13:21):
It's one of my favorite things on the record is
when it sounds like it's going to go into a
beat down, it does, like the whole isolated vocal and
everything either beautiful bit like yeah, and then you get
like an almost metal swing riff and it's such a
cool change, but it feels completely natural to the song.
And that's again one of the things I like so
much about that this whole record, how they're able to

(02:13:44):
go at subvert your expectations in a way that feels
completely natural. Brotherly love. Every time when that kind of
clean guitar comes in and it sounds like it could
be off come on, Die Young, or like an old
Magua record or something, and I don't know it feels
like every melodica band is kind of obligated to have
a go at writing that kind of song. And I'm

(02:14:05):
not sure there's a better version of it. I might
have to give it more thought, but that kind of
collapsing desperate hardcore ballad, it might be the best one. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:14:14):
And there's even a you mentioned the post rock thing
like Reflections, that kind is retti interlude on a ten track,
twenty one minute album. They still go like post rock
for a minute. Yeah, And again you're talking about, you know,
the sort of the melodica motive hardcore ballad song and
stuff like that. This does. Maybe it is because earlier
on the timeline compared to some of them, whatever, but

(02:14:34):
it does. It strikes a sweet spot for me. Of
like the bands that you reference, Sam that I don't
like are when it goes too far right and when
it collapses into again to me, like the vocal becomes
much more uh caricaturist.

Speaker 2 (02:14:50):
There is a there's an excessive pain and windered the vocal,
which again I have no problem with Biack is how
this is way more relatable to you because it is
not so overblown.

Speaker 1 (02:15:01):
Yeah, And there is that the rawness and just a
kind of like a gruffness to it that still kind
of keeps it rooted again in maybe that sort of
straight edge hardcore kind of world that you know, I
enjoy that sort of again. Meeting point and then the
closers the same sun you know, breaches three minutes, unlike
any of the other ones. The impression of this album again,
it's not a twenty one minute blastathon. Thinking of it again,

(02:15:25):
maybe the reference because i'd listen to it recently, a
reference point in my head before going in was like,
oh yeah, like that carry On record and a life
less plagued. It's like eighteen minutes really isn't like that
at all. It's not rowdy or fast, you know. It's
much more kind of like heavy going emotional experience in
a short package. It is another thing on Kurt Blue's
roster as well. I don't find it to be.

Speaker 2 (02:15:46):
One of his production jobs on this I see it's
not one of his best, but I still love the
way this album sounds.

Speaker 1 (02:15:50):
No, yeah, it's good. It's not one of his necessary,
like show stopper production jobs in terms of like going,
holy shit, this sounds fucking insane, you know, like that
could only be Kurt Blue the way he tends to
soup up band. But it does. You know, it works
what the music is doing, which is probably most important
thing and his intent. Yeah, this album wasn't what I expected.
I wasn't expecting it to kind of necessarily have the
compelling effect emotionally that it did. I liked that about it,

(02:16:13):
and I was impressed by the maturity of what it
takes on, and I liked it quite a bit.

Speaker 2 (02:16:18):
I'm glad you like this lot, because yeah, it is.
I mean, I'm I'm just so tuned to like this.
But I think there is a real there is a
reason why this is held up.

Speaker 1 (02:16:26):
So and again.

Speaker 2 (02:16:27):
Part of it is because a year later they're gone,
and so there's that kind of like that thing everyone
was there latch onto it and that legend kind of spread.
But it does. I think there is more than just
that to it. I think it is just a genuinely
like of its genre. One of the finest examples of
what you can do in twenty one minutes of it
and how it can still have all these nuances and

(02:16:50):
like intricacies whilst just being a twenty one minute hardcore
record is really impressive.

Speaker 3 (02:16:56):
Yeah, I think there's something to be said about these
classic records that don't combined genres or do something revolutionary
or completely change the style of music they came from,
and just bands writing and releasing records that are impeccably
impeccable collections of songs that I've stayed with people for
fifteen years and got eight thousand people to go to

(02:17:19):
a car park in the middle of America, do you
know what I mean? Like, there's something to be said
about that in a way that's almost more impressive than
if they were Oh, they were the first hardcore band
to mix glitch and it became really popular or whatever.
It's just they just wrote incredible songs, played incredibly well,
and the legend just spawned from that.

Speaker 1 (02:17:37):
Yeah, I do think. Again, at the same time, in
terms of my personal hardcore pantheon, I don't don't know
how high I would put it right now, obviously I've
just heard it. But like again, the kind of thing
is is not my favorite corner. And U Sam talking
about how you know their legend was really helped by
the fact that they broke up. I'm thinking maybe that's
true as well, because again a comparison point that I repeatedly.

(02:17:58):
Kamety was was Defeat who I don't spend a tremendous
aount of time listening to, But I do like Defeta
Defta a band who have not gone away in the
same kind of way.

Speaker 2 (02:18:08):
They did go over for a couple of years, but
just kind of quietly. They didn't have, you know, a
grand final. This is the last Defeata show. Yeah, it
was just kind of like, Okay, we're done for a bit.

Speaker 1 (02:18:16):
They released more records, they were pretty consistent. They had
a small break, but they're still They played Outbreak Festival
last year, right, They've been around for more time, and
I think, you know, that's that's where this kind of
sort of lives to me. And I think in the
same way I might occasionally reach for that modern life
as War record or like the Defeata records, I like
this sort of goes alongside those. I don't necessarily know

(02:18:36):
if it is in my estimation right now, like noticeably
far better the nose for what its reputation is. Maybe
it is the fact that again defeat A sort of
stuck around as sort of quietly continued making records where
it have heart, you know, released this Seminal one, and
that was kind of all you.

Speaker 2 (02:18:51):
Had two albums that were just so well loved and
then it was kind of like done for for a
good while and like not had it. They've done other
projects since them, even like the same members of Have
Heart have another band.

Speaker 1 (02:19:04):
They formed that band Free, which was just kind of
supposed to be Have Heart but not Have Heart anymore,
which is weird. And then eventually they went, Okay, we're
gonna do Have Heart again. But I guess, you know,
comparing it to again bands like Defeata or etc. Who
are you know, liked cult bands in hardcore? But they're
not your fucking outbreak headliner, right, They're not pulling in

(02:19:24):
eight thousand plus people at the biggest hardcore show of
all time. What is it that makes Have Heart that
in comparison to their immediate peer group, Because while they
are this is a very good record and they are
clearly a very good band, they also feel like a
weirdly unassuming band to have like that huge fucking event
status around them.

Speaker 2 (02:19:41):
Well, I think it comes down to again that they
were one of the first bands to really push that
kind of take in hardcore, So they were doing something
different pioneering a sound within hardcore that people which has
been copied and made worse. A lot of bands will
say over these some bands I think of like almost
improved on the form, and I would say, like Tuche

(02:20:01):
more arguably perfected this or sound of hardcore. But I
think it is just because they were just they were
the first one to do it. They caught everyon's attention
at that point, and because they broke they broke up
at the peak of their popularity. It meant there was nohing,
There was no kind of wind down moment about them
becoming part of the furniture, So there was nothing other

(02:20:24):
than like, have heart are the best? Were the best
band around at that moment in time to kind of
like distill the legend.

Speaker 1 (02:20:32):
What's your assessment, Eliot, Yeah, I don't.

Speaker 3 (02:20:36):
I mean that makes more sense to me, Like I mean,
I'm not coming at it with the right you know, context,
because I got into this band on the comeback when
they were doing these huge shows in America and all
of that, So I don't have the best judgment for it.
But looking at this record and with a concert they
broke up soon afterwards, I just think there's something there's

(02:20:59):
just something about this record which I don't get from
those other bands that you talked about, like Modern Life
is Ward Defeata that sort of thing.

Speaker 1 (02:21:05):
And I think it is just the song quality.

Speaker 3 (02:21:07):
Not to say that the songs are like Leagues better
per se, but this collection of songs feels completely distinct
to have heartlight if I want to hear this sound.

Speaker 1 (02:21:16):
Yeah, I don't think.

Speaker 3 (02:21:17):
There's a great substitute or a like for like substitute.
And I'm someone who's not even particularly into this style,
and I really gravitate to this record if this is
your favorite style, and this is by extension, one of
the best records to ever do. And there's enough people
who feel that way, you know. You see how populist
bands like Lardest View and Two Shame More are.

Speaker 1 (02:21:37):
And the like.

Speaker 3 (02:21:38):
I can see this being one of those things where
the legend grows and when it comes back everyone wants in.

Speaker 1 (02:21:45):
Yeah, and that reunion show genuinely is like one of
the biggest hardcore events of the last decade. So it's
about time we spoke about have Heari's bo songs a
Scream with the Sun Last album Club. For this pack,
we are going back in time to the early nineties.
Vocation Effigy of the Forgotten is the name of the record.
Like I said on the Weekly Show, we've been doing
our Sepultura special recently. The end of that first part

(02:22:08):
took us into celebrating the particular glories of the Morrisound
metal era, the late eighties early nineties period where Scott
Burns at Morrisound produced, to my ears, some of the
greatest sounding metal records of all time. We've been making
a bit of a dent in these album club positions
of that like school of classic death metal albums, because

(02:22:29):
mainly I believe that they were well overdue in terms
of how insanely formative and influential they've all been. And
this time it is the turn of Suffocation and Effigy
of the Forgotten their debut album. I think the last
time we were doing some kind of like similar nineteenth
death metal masterpiece, it was Mental Funeral by Autopsy, And
I think there are some albums that are like so
sort of out of whack for the conventional ear that

(02:22:52):
they require a bit of explanation. There definitely will be
others in that lane wait till we get to Demolic,
But this time I think it's maybe one of the
more explanatory nineties death metal classics. And that's not as
to say it is of a lesser quality one bit,
but our conversation might just cut to the chase of
what it is a little bit more. Suffocation are pretty
much the first, and you know, for the last thirty
odd years, basically the last word in brutal death metal.

(02:23:16):
If you like your death metal brutal, then you have
the arrival of this album in nineteen ninety one to
thank for your whole collection.

Speaker 2 (02:23:24):
Yeah, I mean I got into Suffocation fairly recently, but
they were on the first kind of like points I
called at when I asked, you know, my unlocking of
the death metal moment that we talked about on the
podcast through that because I was kind of told, you know, like, oh,
you like Despised Ikorn and that kind of like, yeah,
Cowboy like Naughty's death core, Suffocation kind of pioneer that

(02:23:47):
on this album and then those.

Speaker 1 (02:23:49):
I mean, he's on a fucking suicide silence record.

Speaker 2 (02:23:50):
Frank, Yeah, no, that I mean like you I was told, oh,
I like all those like Naughty's brutal death core bands,
go listen to Fgiff forgotten by Suffocation. I was like
I put on, I was like, yeah, yeah cool, and
then that beat down here and the opening song, and
I was like, oh yeah cool, I get it there
it is.

Speaker 3 (02:24:10):
See, I had a very different experience when I was
first getting into metal and even extreme metal. I was
terrified by suffocation. Like one of the ways I got
into a lot of the bands was I used to
watch these montages on YouTube of people just doing slide
shows their top twenty five extreme metal bands or whatever,
and they play a bit of the song, and it's
funny looking back thinking about what was it that disturbed

(02:24:32):
me at the time. And Enslaved was fine. Oulva wasn't
scared at all, a bituy fine. There were some mans
who kind of put me on edge. The sound of
Mayhem sort of freaked me out, Cannibal Corpse seemed sort
of genuinely dangerous, and then when Suffocation used to come on,
I was just frightened. I was scared by it. And

(02:24:55):
even when I got into death metal, brutal death metal,
despite not being as big a leap in real it
was in my head just seem like this insurmountable to
like in a video game where you kill what you
think is the final boss, and then you turn around
and it's something fifty times the size. They were just
kind of like you said, the first and last world
in hard music.

Speaker 1 (02:25:15):
I think Suffocation is definitely like cold, merciless, fucking death. Yeah,
it's like there is absolutely it's not necessarily the most
like to me, unsettling, otherworldly or whatever, but it is
like there is no room for remorse in it. There
is no room for any sensitivity that it might have
mercy on you. It is just going to fucking kill you.

(02:25:38):
When I say yourself, it's planetary. I guess what this
doubles up as is I don't think there are very
many death metal albums that feel they are so like
exemplary and genre defining of a particular strand of it
as this, even like one of their major peers at
the time might have been Cannibal Corps, right, and like
those Cannibal albums in the nineties might be more famous,
but I think they're more comprehensive of like the perception

(02:25:59):
of death as a whole, whereas this album from Suffocation
is like a entire substrand of death metal summed up
immediately in one glorious perfect form Elliott, When I say,
as you a genre to brutal death metal, let's say,
you know, after Suffocation and after Dying Feet as as well,

(02:26:20):
who obviously spoke on another album Club recently, Let's say
from sort of the late nineties going into the millennium
and brutal death matterally becoming like a scene of itself.
Are you mentually a fan of like that world of
death metal specifically?

Speaker 3 (02:26:33):
It's one of those where I go through phases, like
every couple of years. I have three months where I
listen to quite a lot of slam, but it's not
something that enters too much of my listening.

Speaker 1 (02:26:44):
It's weird.

Speaker 3 (02:26:44):
A lot of my favorite death metal bands kind of
border on those two worlds, like you say, Dying Fetus
and Suffocation or you know, Nile. A lot of the
early stuff is kind of comparable to a lot of
the brutal death metal. There's a sick glee when you
get into real slam stuff. But it's something that even
now it feels like a hurdle for people into death metal.

Speaker 1 (02:27:08):
Yeah, I think you know, the full on slam thing.
It's like it brings all sorts of connotations that aren't
even necessarily relevant on necessarily to Suffocation. It's a bit
like you know, two thousands met a quarter ab out
the Gates or something. They're a bit culturally removed from
like pure full on slam, but you know, the bigger
bands of brutal death metal sort of post Suffocation and
Cryptopsy and so on, but also not quite slam yet.
I guess it's like Disgorge, who's whose singer now front

(02:27:31):
Suffocation defeated Sanity Skinless. I think you've mentioned a few
times a favorite of maamples. Yeah, it's good, brodo quin.
I think in the modern era you've had like Ingested
have become like a kind of a.

Speaker 2 (02:27:48):
One i'd go to.

Speaker 1 (02:27:48):
Is like again, I'm not the Yeah, they're they're the
modern sort of you know, uh, purveyor of that. I suppose,
you know, I like those bands. It's not necessarily my
favorite strand of death metal where I spend most of
my time. I've definitely I've dabbled in plenty of it,
and I've had my intense brittle death metal phases as
well as someone who got hard into death metal and
all its forms. But I did maybe in terms of

(02:28:09):
where I specified I went slightly more down the kind
of slightly more cult or more at old school whatever
kind of roots. I think the best band of that
where kind of you know, where death metal really becomes
brutal death metal, you know, probably are Dying Fetus, which
again refer to our album Club from a few months
ago about why Dying Featas are like the hardest band
in the world. But Suffocation are quite special to me

(02:28:29):
because there's sort of this genesis point thing of like
in hindsight thinking about the culture and where it goes,
this feels so different. It's kind of like old school
brutal death metal, you know what I mean. It's like
at their time, the immediate peers are like, yeah, there
are around Cannibal Corps and like Immolation and Diocide and
Gorguts and some of those bands who have parts that

(02:28:51):
you can see if I was being similar, you know,
it was like Chris barnes Iero, Cannibal Corps is a
huge influence on the brutal death metal subgenre as well,
even if they're not as specifically tied to being forefathers
of it a Suffocation are, but Suffocation are essentially in
that era of the eighties going into the nineties where
there are a lot about who are developing their thing
in death metal. Morbid Angel, Utopsy, Obituary, whatever, Suffocation are

(02:29:13):
inventing this thing, and it's like it's of this like
old school death metal Morris sound era, which I really love,
but it's also giving birth in the future to this
whole other thing to come, you know what I mean.

Speaker 3 (02:29:26):
Yeah, I going back to this record. It kind of
it struck me. This is I'm not gonna say it's
the first death metal record or anything like that, but
it's one of the earliest examples of death metal feeling
completely distinct from thrash.

Speaker 1 (02:29:38):
Absolutely. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:29:40):
Well, you listen to Obituary or even stuff like Cannibal Corps,
which is often cited as it really transitioning into its
own thing. You can sell those guys like Slayer.

Speaker 1 (02:29:49):
Yeah, well Obituary is like really Celtic Frost is really
like you know, early It's like Creator and Dark Angel
and stuff like that. This is fucking death meal.

Speaker 3 (02:29:59):
Yeah, it's it kind of I kind of perplixed that
how they arrived at this sound because it's one of
the first times that real technicality of this kind entered
death metal, and also one of the earliest examples of
that vocal style. It's like so many firsts on one
record that it feels like something of a paradigm shift.

Speaker 1 (02:30:19):
I absolutely agree, and Sam, you know, it totally makes
sense that this will be one of the first sort
of classic death metal bands in general that I would
sort of throw at you because as something come from
that sort of hard core side of the equation, that's
a really part of Suffocation's legacy, and Suffocation to me
are like the archetypal New York death metal band because

(02:30:40):
in the same way you think about New York hardcore
in the eighties and it kind of developed, it's a
very particular sense of sort of metallic groove compared to
hardcore in any part of the country. It happens in
death metal here as well. You can just feel the
fucking New York attitude in every riff of this.

Speaker 2 (02:30:54):
Well, is that fascinating like personal?

Speaker 1 (02:30:56):
Right?

Speaker 2 (02:30:56):
Because this is like super technical at the same time,
loads of loads, that's what's going on. But when they
lay into those slamming, beat down grooves, it's like, God,
that is just straight up fuggery. That is gonna beat
you up and steal your wallet and kick you on,
you're on the ground, like it's so like ob noxiously
knuckle dragging, which again like you wouldn't necessarily put alongside

(02:31:19):
the technical stuff. But when those roofs come in, I'm
just like, god, it just sounds fucking great. But I
think it then just makes the technical stuff way more
palatable to me, where I don't get you know, like, okay,
you' wanking off your guitar, how impressive, because it's just like, no,
they're doing sick riffs, and then in a minute they're gonna,
you know, give me something that I could realistically spin
kicked too.

Speaker 3 (02:31:38):
I think that's part of why Suffocation scared me so much,
not not because I thought they were gonna steal my wallet,
but because extreme metal up to the up to the
like ninety ninty one particular, up to this record, I
think a lot of it is about sounding more unhinged,
more frightening, more out of control. That's kind of how
you sound heavier and more extreme, and you put this

(02:32:00):
on and nothing feels out of control, nothing feels that
they're pushing too hard in a way. It's it's just
the heaviest sound maybe to date, performed by experts.

Speaker 1 (02:32:11):
Yeah, absolutely, that's fully comes to what I was saying
about it kind of be like a cold merciless It's
like it's like you believe this is the word. They
are in total control. And again, like Cannibal Corps are
almost like an interesting link because they started off in
New York and then relocated to Florida, and they're sort
of the breedge between those scenes. Suffocation is just fucking
pure New York baby and that link to the kind

(02:32:31):
of you know, old school death metal landscape and that
Morrisound production, et cetera, in a way, you know, more
than their kind of late brutal slam death metal thing
that comes from them. This album is so fucking evil
to me because it has this like cold, dark, fucking
atmosphere that I love in this kind of music. And

(02:32:53):
like I think even you know, even the Suffocation in general.
This is maybe particularly true of Effigy. They've forgotten because
you know, I do love Suffocation as a career band.
Going back to twenty thirteen, I was listening to Pinnacle
of Bedlam Loads at the same time that I was
into Cross Faith, But Effigy it's just so fucking grim,
you know what I mean? As an album.

Speaker 3 (02:33:12):
Yeah, I think like the suffocation of one of those
bands where they have two kind of competing in classic.

Speaker 1 (02:33:17):
I was going to ask whether you should go We're
going to go from this or or Pierce from Within.
I went to the fgy is the album club because
it's kind of the formative one. But there are a
lot of people who say Piers Within.

Speaker 3 (02:33:25):
Well, I think Pierce from Within is probably my favorite.
It's kind of that sounds like the band really nailing
their sound and sounding even more frightening and muscular stuff.
But a sorry about Effigy having this sort of shadowiness.

Speaker 1 (02:33:39):
Yeah, I'm an efergy guy.

Speaker 3 (02:33:42):
Yeah I could. Yeah, I mean I could totally see that.
You're like, you're like your shadows. This is like it's
I I always think of the way on Haunts in
the Chapel when Chemical Warfare comes in and it sounds
like a train coming out.

Speaker 1 (02:33:55):
Of the Fox. Yeah, you're dark.

Speaker 3 (02:33:57):
The first two seconds of Leader of Veracity has that
effect on me.

Speaker 1 (02:34:03):
Yeah, I mean, this album's got a ninety metal archive's
like it's fully revered. This album. The Dan Seagrave cover
art the greatest death metal cover artist. It's one of
my very favorites of it could be my favorite, Like
it's the the fu it always makes. It looks like
Wally to me, but like a fucked up like.

Speaker 2 (02:34:21):
That movie nine, the like weird and like again hunted
by these like mechanical monsters, Like it's like post weird
animated post politic movie, but the like spider mechanical things
like this look like the thing on the album, which
looks like how the album sounds. It is just this
like otherworldly like end of Day's mechanical. It's like consuming

(02:34:42):
everything you're thinking about the.

Speaker 1 (02:34:43):
Beginning of Wally, And he's this little robot guy sort
of rolling around this like ruined trash planet. And this
looks like someone's like taken that image and kind of
painted it in a grim dark style. But the weird
thing is this king first. And I'm wondering did Pixar
based Wally on the on the album cover Reveedue the
Forgotten and how people felt, because it feels like being
on some kind of ruined trash planet, doesn't It's like

(02:35:03):
an absolute apocalypse album. And you know, speaking of that
Morris sound eer, the tone of this album, it's genuinely
one of the heaviest things I think ever put to
tape like this album, particularly for nineteen ninety one, sounds
so fucking cutthroat. It's a basy album in a way
beyond a lot of the other ones from this time.
It fills out your headphones really thickly, like soup, and
I think maybe that is part of again that coming

(02:35:25):
from thrash going into something new that was like, you know,
newly heavy. But it's amazing to me that this album
is less than five years removed from screen. Bloody Gore,
like the generally accepted birth of death metal, is a
legit musical genre if you're not going back to like
seven Churches, but like the arms race of extremity to
get you from the landscape of the late eighties to this.

(02:35:45):
This is one of the earliest death metal albums where
I go, oh, yeah, that can't have been in the eighties,
Like it's legit tuber yeah to have come out in
the eighties, but being so early in the nineties still
like it is a legit ahead of its time album.

Speaker 3 (02:35:57):
I think this is one of the most overlood Scott
Burns production jobs. And not to say that people don't
talk about this record or anything, but when people talk
about his contribution to the.

Speaker 1 (02:36:07):
Sound of metal. People go, oh, let proceed.

Speaker 3 (02:36:10):
You know, he made death metal sound the way it
should sound, and you know all of the stuff he
was doing it, like Morbid Angel or whatever it. I
listened to this and think this is the one where
the sound of death metal is kind of alchemized here.
And I don't know, I'm not saying that it hadn't
been before. But you know, if if a band put
out an album that sound like you know, Slowly we

(02:36:32):
Rott or Alters of Madness any year or any year, yeah,
any year after like ninety ninety four, it would be
so or let's say two thousand, just a round.

Speaker 1 (02:36:41):
Off, it would sound old school.

Speaker 3 (02:36:42):
You could release an album feed Me that sounds like
this and you wouldn't think, oh yeah, you know lots
of the nineties.

Speaker 1 (02:36:50):
But you could.

Speaker 3 (02:36:50):
You could release an album that sounds like this tomorrow
and it would still sound somewhat cutting edge.

Speaker 2 (02:36:56):
I mean, that's what I mean. That's why I mentioned
all the like the Naughti's Death Goal bands that they're
like there are albums that did sound like this. Is
like you could argue there is a kind of timeless
quality to it.

Speaker 1 (02:37:07):
Yeah, And like I said, this really is the domino
that gets you to dying feetes and more tissue maybe
as well, that then gets you to develourment, that gets
you to you know, modern day brutal death metal that
maybe then gets you to someone that Sangui Sugerbog today.
You know. But to me, this album is basically still
the best ever thing of its kind because it taps
into that malevolent atmosphere that I love about this era

(02:37:28):
of death metal, but it does it with those like
hard ranged, brutal, almost from the future riffs. It is
very rare that you can point to a single second
of music and identify it as the exact invention point
of a whole genre of music. You know that the
Black Sabber bi Black Sabbath moment. Normally things are more
of a mix together pool than that, but there exists

(02:37:48):
such a moment on effort you've forgotten. Two minutes and
fifty seconds into the opening track Leads of Intervercity, there
is the exact invention point of slam.

Speaker 2 (02:37:59):
It's like zero for a whole Like.

Speaker 1 (02:38:03):
Is like, just just.

Speaker 2 (02:38:04):
Imagine hearing that in nineteen ninety one and just be.

Speaker 1 (02:38:07):
Like, I think you'd uncontrollably shit if you heard that
for the first time, just like without even realizing it.

Speaker 2 (02:38:13):
The sound act, I mean, it just sounds so good,
but it is like that is like a new level
of violence in your music that like just fry your
brain or just like cave your skulling.

Speaker 3 (02:38:26):
Like like you say about it being the kind of
final real the full realization of this idea on Go
number one. I listened to that, and it's not like, oh,
someone took this idea and then they changed this and
they altered that a bit, slowed it down, and then
they arrived at the slam sound no for for about
twenty five seconds suffocation or a full on slam band

(02:38:47):
in the vein of any band that's come after them.
And I mean, you say, like the idea of this
in nineteen ninety one, the whole thing. If you took
a laptop back to ancient Egypt's what happened. You could
take this back to nineteen eighty four and people would go,
we're not making metal anymore. We've gone too far that
the dominoes were already falling. It's it's it's out of
our hands. It it's insane. Just this little piece of

(02:39:10):
this little bit of the record well kind of make
it legendary in its own right. And Warrant's discussion like
the one we're giving it.

Speaker 1 (02:39:16):
Yeah, I mean there's this band, I don't know if
you've seen this, there's this band Torture, that been getting
quite a lot.

Speaker 2 (02:39:20):
H They're so funny, how like full of like frog
sound like trutal slam band, all the rageing hardcore at
the moment, it's hilarious, but it's like it's.

Speaker 1 (02:39:29):
Like you're still just doing leading in veracity. Yeah. And
the track leader Rasty itself takes such a tumbling of
riffs to get there. Like it's a really technical track,
as all of these are. I like that you can
almost feel it getting more obnoxious subtly as it goes along.
It's like it starts off fully fucking multi linb tentacle,
it gradually gets more and more primal until it reaches
the point where it can get no more primal than

(02:39:51):
just It's like one of the catchiest, most simplistic yet
important death metal riffs ever. And how Frank Mullin enunciated
over it, it is the dawn of that like kind
of kind of you know, every dying feet as John
Gallagher vocal pattern, you know that then goes into that
fully toilet water circling around the drain vocal. It's like

(02:40:11):
it's all there, just fucking immediately. And then I think
when you're talking about suffocation, particularly in this era, you
have to draw attention to like a few of the
star players that assembled in this band, because each one
of them is fully you know, power rangers, you know,
coming together adding something to the soup. And that's not
the disrespect the other guys in the band as well,
but you know they've changed members a fair few times
over the years. There are a few guys who are

(02:40:33):
just very synonymous with suffocation and put an insane performances
on this record. The first is Frank Mullin, who is
like maybe one of death Metal's first super star front men.

Speaker 3 (02:40:45):
Well, like he's the way people talk about like the
till Hammer or other rocksters having famous moves. Is there
anyone else in death Medal that has one outside of
Frank Mullin?

Speaker 1 (02:40:56):
Justaby hand chop, corpse grinders, very specific wind milling head bang,
but like, yeah, I mean the hand chop I do
that shows when I'm in the crowd like it's absorbed
into my lexicon that you fucking do that, you know,
the handschot. I don't do it with the full tongue
waggling out like you know Frank because he's a madman.
But the hand chop becomes a thing after Frank Muller
maybe I know the handshop like yeah, and I like,

(02:41:17):
I've never I've never seen suffocation with Frank because by
the time they started coming over here and I was
seeing them, he'd already retired from the live band. But
you know, particularly imagine it again in this time, maybe
again come from that sort of New York hardcore kind
of you know, pull of people. You know, I guess
it's at the same time that Mad Ball are starting
all that kind of shit, but like legit again, Superstar
front mad live presence. Vocally you said it earlier. Elliott

(02:41:43):
identifiable as a grunter somehow, but yeah, how utterly again
cold and merciless like the music. He makes a growl, which,
as you were saying, I think vocally is maybe on
the places where what you're saying being kind of more
crazy and unhinged, but then turning into like know, cold composed,
fucking beat the shit out of you the vocal transition

(02:42:06):
to get from where you were in like eighty eight
whatever to Frank Mullin. Here is maybe the most obvious point.

Speaker 3 (02:42:13):
Is there's just something about his voice that it gives
me stomach ache. Like it's not the most toilet water
gurgle gurgle death metal vocal, it's just this inhuman grunt.

Speaker 1 (02:42:25):
He genuinely sounds like a monster.

Speaker 2 (02:42:28):
Yeah, this is actually genuinely just like the beast is
emerging and it is. It is cold and just mean,
and but it's not like again, it never feels like
some of those like really like grunty vocals sound a
bit goofy to me at times. Yeah, I don't get
that at any moment from him. I don't feel like
I was like, no, this guy's I wouldn't there say that.

(02:42:49):
I'm like, he probably would kill me with his behald.

Speaker 1 (02:42:51):
It's it's full on like demonic terminator death metal vocals.
Like the way it gurgled in his throat. It sounds
so tough, and so he's probably one of the most
influential vocalists in history.

Speaker 3 (02:43:03):
Oh yeah, and it's it's funny, like we say, coming
from this guy is one of Death Mel's star front men,
and then when he you hear him on the record,
he doesn't sound like a person. It's like the way
David Vincent was able to inject like a huge personality
into Death mol growls, and that's kind of his major contribution.
Frank Mullen stripped away all the humanity and yet he's lovable.

(02:43:27):
Frank Mullin like Death Metal's uncle.

Speaker 1 (02:43:30):
I just mad. Yeah, there are there's a couple of
tracks on here where you actually have guest vocals from
Corpse Grinder, who you know, Timeline fans may put together.
He wasn't in Cambic Corps yet at this point is
when he was in Monstrosity, but Massiveliteration and Reincrimination Reincremation, Sorry,
he's in there laying in the back doing that chesting
kind of art that he does, kind of supporting Frank.
The bit in Massiveliteration when he does the Purify extinction

(02:43:52):
is so fucking cool, and that's what you can really tell.
Oh shit, that's Corpsegrinder in there in the Suffocation track.
Reincremation is a brilliant song. The riff at the start
and how serrated it is, but then it moves into
that like insane rhythm where the dull bas kicks are almost
like kind of dancing over it chatter in such a
precise way, and massive Obligation starts on a Punkby that's
fucking dick. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:44:14):
I think like one of the cool things about suffocation
sound is like you use the word punk by and
that that's accurate, but it's somewhere where they're so technically
proficient that it almost sounds sloppy. And I don't necessarily
mean that as a criticism, but like Mike Smith on
the drums, he does these double hits on the bass
drums where only one would be necessary, and they're so

(02:44:35):
close together that it sounds like it's a mistake, but
it's it's like a suffocation signature, and when they don't
have it, you really notice it makes them stand out
and their riffs just don't seem to follow any rules
at all. Like I mean, I'm not musically trained. I
couldn't go, oh that's you know, that's your a minor
pansatonic or anything like that, but you can just hear
that it's all over the shop and it has this

(02:44:56):
effect of sounding kind of insane and again geniusly precise
and like perfect for it.

Speaker 1 (02:45:02):
Yeah, and that brings us to our next of the
kind of star players who is probably I guess the
key musical brain behind suffocation over their entire career, you know,
the consistent Terrence Hobbs, whose rifts here are devastating.

Speaker 2 (02:45:17):
Like I think as well, like the riffs of it,
like there is like a single minded devastation to them,
but on some of the tibbits there is like actual
kind of catchy hooks in some of the guitar lines
and stuff like that as well. When the technicality of it,
which again just feels really like you shouldn't be having
that an album this brutal, but there are like guitar
lines that are catching stick with you that will then

(02:45:37):
just go into the most brutal slams you've ever heard.

Speaker 1 (02:45:40):
Yeah, and just unbelievably technical, serrated riffs. And I think
you know, the general kind of the brutality of the
tone and the approach, I think you can link that
to something like the first couple day a side records.
But there's an almost like math precision to this where
you start thinking about what must be going on inside
his head slotting these rifts together, and you start to
feel like are you a robot? You know, like how

(02:46:00):
a you're doing this? And the solos are moving further
and further away from like conventional melodic, heavy net caitar
like like these are definitely not the kind that Chuck
Shulderer would write, you know.

Speaker 3 (02:46:10):
Yeah, they have one of the most I don't hones
to say think one of the most distinctive solo styles
in all of extreme music, because you could take a
suffocation sort out of the song and you know what
it is, because you know it's clearly inspired by Slayer
to some degree, but they use these weird scales and
uncanny melodies, and even as someone who's listened to this
record loads of times, when the solos come in and

(02:46:32):
you're kind of subconsciously trying to predict where they're going
to go, they never go where you think. And I
think that's one of the things that contributes it to
sounding so futuristic and alien. It's almost like, in fifty years,
what will the guitar solo sound like? How will they
dazzle you beyond what Eddie van Halen Whoever's doing at
the time. It's just it's a mad sound.

Speaker 1 (02:46:52):
Yeah, and then the other star member on this who
has not always been with Suffocation, but was absolutely key
in forming their style. And maybe it's one of the
other things that makes me slightly go yeah, effigy, it's
like the Suffocation record. Yeah, to me, they're on and
off drummer Mike Smith, who I think you know saying
Frank Mullin was one of the superstar front men in
death metal the time. I think Mike Smith probably was
the superstar drummer of like early nineties American death metal.

(02:47:14):
Maybe Pete Sandevil you'd have in their at a similar level.
But the way people talk about Mike Smith to this day,
and he's only on about four Suffocation records total, but
there is a tone of awe in their voice where
they talk about Mike Smith to this day, and I mean,
fucking listen to it.

Speaker 3 (02:47:29):
Yeah, it's it's one of those where you listen to
the record and go, fucking Ellie, it's good, and then
you go nineteen ninety one. But they might not have
had a computer, how the fuck? Like everything is both
so on the money and so and yet also so
completely distinctive to him, and stuff that sounds kind of

(02:47:50):
wrong but also perfectly befitting of suffocation. He is like
an insane sound to listen to the way he slots
in phil Like even his blast beats are so distinctive,
like the way they kind of all percuss at the
same time.

Speaker 1 (02:48:06):
Yeah, which was his trademark.

Speaker 3 (02:48:09):
Yeah, and like how many bands do that now ifact
that's kind of what the sound of blasting is like
when when most bands do that sort of tempo, that's
normally what they're doing, that sort of gravity blast kind
of or full front of attack. Yeah, and hearing that
on a nineteen ninety one record, just it still sounds
out of this world.

Speaker 1 (02:48:29):
Yeah, I mean this guy was with the Master Blaster,
you know. And like with how Suffocation becomes so revered
even among again like hardcore and death metal crowds like
a Bituary Canraal Corks or whatever. Every now and then
you'll see some old video of Mike Smith being shared
around of him blasting. He records a track on that
road Running United project, and that's almost as big a
deal as like any of the vocalist team ups or whatever.
Let's get a bit of that fucking brutal power in

(02:48:49):
the mix, and you're going to get this guy to
do it the way he you know, innovated and advanced.
What we would come to know is like brutal death
metal blast beats. In this era again, that style of
playing you're referring to, it was dubbed the Smith blast,
you know, which was rather than kind of alternating between hits,
you just hit everything in unison at a high speed,
which takes unbelievable stamina. Right, there's a reason people weren't

(02:49:10):
doing that at that point. And it's jaw dropping on
this and the sound again, this production for me, this
kind of really lovely warm blanket more a sound production.
Doing these like modern style blast beats, it's fucking bananas
to hear, and like you know, you could if you
pull up into like live drum cams or anything or
watching him go, it's like again slightly petrifying to watch.

(02:49:30):
It's an absolutely fucking killing machine. And I do think
as well as the blast, like his grooves are a
real sauce on this that kind of power it forward
because again it's the tightness of it. Everything's done with
the kind of unbelievable spider like precision, but hitting everything
so hardly, and that the video of him tracking the
road reunited thing, it's like forty seconds long, and he
just demonstrates like, Okay, you know, you don't want to
blast like this where you're hitting the snare really weakly.

(02:49:52):
You want to do it like this, just fucking animals
the thing. And like, how many people watching that video
suddenly went Okay, that's what it takes to be a
like a death metal drummer. I've not as well the
fact that both Terrence Hobbs and Mike Smith are black
men and among the very first kind of black pioneers
in extreme music. But when yeah, maybe those two guys
in particularly and their powers kind of sync up together,

(02:50:13):
you know, those crazy, freewheeling technical riffs and that unbelievable
blasting style. The opening seconds of Involuntary Slaughter are baffling
because it comes in with this like low, jilting, awkward thing,
like it's just fallen apart and they're just on a
turn of a dime immediately all of a sudden, coming
at you, completely composed and unstoppable. And it's one of
the things about again you think about the power of

(02:50:33):
the live band and the insane chemistry they must have
of players to all channel that together. It's ferocious. I
love how The title track starts with that blast of
just micing the bass guitar and it just runs for a.

Speaker 2 (02:50:44):
Bit of it is like insane, like there are bits
working like it's because I do, but it's a season.
Suffering has that like tempo change about like three minutes
in where they lock into this groom and again it's
like that, like the way they sync up just sounds
so fucking good, fucking.

Speaker 1 (02:50:58):
Kick your head off breakdown. Yeah, yeah that's me.

Speaker 2 (02:51:01):
It's got like a kind of weird timing to it,
but it's just so locked in and that there's so
many moments of that way you're just gonna be like,
fuck me, I didn't. I didn't know how they were
going to pull that out of where they were just before.
And it is the kind of the way the guitars
and the drums they're so like can can be doing
something they feel totally different and then just like on
the snap, just go am're in together and it just

(02:51:22):
it's like snap your neck heavy like with the head
bang in still moments like and it just loads that
all across the whole record.

Speaker 1 (02:51:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:51:30):
I think one of my favorite things about this record
and Suffocation in general is the way they're able to
craft such catchy songs out of such mad man ideas,
like the things basically everything we spoken about the musical
the stroked is always and then they go do this,
and then they go into that, and then they do that,
and then and then they do that. And you know
how many times we told oh, verse chorus, verse, course,

(02:51:53):
that's how you make a catchy song, and death mols
if you do the same thing or whatever, it's like, no, no,
you don't need to do that.

Speaker 1 (02:51:59):
You can have.

Speaker 3 (02:52:00):
Wild ABCDB, E f CD structures if you want to.
It's about making it exciting and making it flow. And
they managed to do that, and yet when you listen
to it, you go, how the fuck did that happen?
How have I arrived here? And yet it feels natural.
It's it's just a collection of paradoxes.

Speaker 1 (02:52:21):
Yeah, all time fucking beat down, you know, band like
that part you mentioned and the suffering, the one about
two and a half minutes into again, the title track
where it just fucking unbelievably good. My favorite Suffocation track
is Infecting the Crypts, which to me is like the
perfect example of what you were just saying, Elliott, in

(02:52:41):
terms of like I don't necessarily think it is true
for every song with Recca. Sometimes it's just like fucking
unbelievably like what disorientating. But infecting the crypt to me,
is like the perfect stringing together of technical, brutal deathinital
riffs to somehow make a song like the first minute
or so is Mayhem, and it's memorable to me. I
know every stand in that intro during kind of the

(02:53:03):
thrashy part, but the transition point when it goes from
that assault at the start, having got that out of
the way, to then settle into that lurking, gurgling monster riff.
The fact that rift doesn't come first and almost sneaks
up on you is like what makes it so much better.
And the simplicity of that rift arriving from that crazy

(02:53:25):
frenetic intro to just turning and d D and fucking
Frank coming in with the underneath it. It's genuine one of
the heaviest rifts ever. To me, it's so like, absolutely evil.

Speaker 3 (02:53:40):
And to think they were like how old when they
made this, I mean, infecting the crypts and right and
saying that's on the human.

Speaker 1 (02:53:45):
Waste CP, is it not? I think it is yeah,
the thing is.

Speaker 3 (02:53:48):
And like you think, there must have been like twenty
or something and they're putting together these compositions that are
so wild and unsaved, and then like you say, they
can also just be so satisfying, Like it's kind of
an internal logic that you couldn't imprint on another band
or another style or anything where a suffocations of way
to write it out, you'd go, this is wild, but

(02:54:10):
the act of listening to it is kind of so
naturally enjoyable.

Speaker 2 (02:54:16):
I mean, that's it is. I was just I never
found of like looking at the times of the songs
and overthinking things because I was just so hooked in
and enjoying the sound of this album. It is like
as definitely goes. It is like your way. It is terrifying,
super but it's also just really listenable again where it's
just like again, there are catch hooks of the riffs,
there are grooves that just make you when the head

(02:54:37):
bang along, it never feels like two kind of like
again they're bombody, all these sounds rifts, but it never
feels overwhelming and kind of like messy and kind of
like anger me, I've lost the plot here where where
we need to look back around something, because it's just
every new riff, every new sound they're doing just sounds
sick as far.

Speaker 1 (02:54:55):
Yeah, and the lyrics in the effect of the crips
are like pure caliber corps ish, grave robbing, necrophile shit.
The riff itself sounds like what exhuming a corpse from
a grave should sound like. You know, it's sickening. And
there's that wonderful little bit at the end where for
like one moment on the album they do a bit
of sort of sonic imagery. There's that sounded like shoveling
dirt or something, or that weird little creepy bassline plays.

(02:55:16):
There's another fucking unbelievable slam riff as well in the
final third that's just nasty. But like, it's exactly I
wrote down exactly something that you said earlier at the
start of this, which is like, this is undeniably a
point where thrash metal has completely morphed into a different genre. Undeniably,
like what is this? It's fucking death metal. Even when
Habitual Infamy spends a fair bit of his runtime on
sort of more thrash rhythms, almost it's like a sort

(02:55:38):
it almost like a kind of full length version of
like the intro of Infecting the Crips, it's just so
undeniably death metal.

Speaker 3 (02:55:46):
Yeah, it's hard to even like quantify exactly what the
difference is because you know, there's stuff like vocals, like
you know, you know, when have Frank Mullen singing in
Xentrix or whatever, like I mean, like that's a complete
change of pace. But every element of this is kind
of like quintessence of death metal itself to me, Like, yeah,

(02:56:07):
Mike Smith is a death metal drummer. He's not a
metal drummer. He's a death metal drummer. Terrence Hobbs doesn't
write metal riffs. He writes death metal riffs. It's just
every single part of it. The name of the band,
the album side, the album cover that's shoveling them dirt,
at the end of Infecting the Crips, each of the songs.
It can't be mistaken for something else. Yeah, and there's

(02:56:30):
a kind of there's a joy in that.

Speaker 1 (02:56:32):
I think there's an atmosphere difference as well, where you know,
death metal by that kind of like again that terrifying
cold this record is going to kill me sort of
aura as supposed to maybe a thrash metal running a circle,
you know, drink some beers. Aura and I agree that
there's a there's a command of death metal language on
this and imagery that just conveys an all of its own.

(02:56:54):
Like looking at that cover art and reading down the
track list on the back of the CD, you know,
it's fucking scary, and like ending an album on a
song called Jesus Wept just undeniably fucking hard. And there
are there are riffs in there that could be, you know,
just more normally recognizable, but they've mangled them in this
fucking detuned horror show. It's a stunningly evil, brutal record

(02:57:15):
infecting the crips. I think is one of the holy
fame examples of like how to write a death metal song?
And I like you're saying, it's not how to write
a metal song, it's how to write this kind of
death metal song. Legion in Veracity templates a whole SOB
genre in one riff. It's it's the goat for what
it is.

Speaker 2 (02:57:32):
Yeah, you know, I mean again, I just think this
album just is this. This is one of those times
I will kind of reach for for just like I
need to and that is harder than what I will
usually go for. I just want that eggs a bit
of like yeah, caked in violence, like brutality, and it
is like it is the one for it, isn't it.
Like bands have like been aping this again, like Collude

(02:57:55):
was like, you know, despite exple when they go for
those really brutal slamming beatdowns and you're like they're cool,
but also they're not you know, the first one you
hear on this that invented slam.

Speaker 3 (02:58:05):
Yeah, I've in the last few months, I've kind of
goten obsessed with the idea of I've just used the word,
but of quintessence, where things are like perfectly definitive of
themselves and like levi jeens, that's what jeanes are.

Speaker 2 (02:58:18):
It's the meme of the guy holding up the pos
and we're like, ah, yes, Like the slam is like
the riff on that song.

Speaker 3 (02:58:23):
Yeah, exactly, yeah, And it's like Effigy are the Forgotten.
You know, there might be more extreme or more mental
death metal alms out there, there might be more influential ones,
although I just I would say not many, but Efforgy
the Forgotten, it is like, no, that's what death metal
is like down to its bones, like it's a perfect
definition of the thing that it's not even emulating the

(02:58:46):
thing that it's shaping. And it's not even necessarily my
favorite Suffocation record, but like it's the one you had
to do because there's very few records, i'd say, in
metal full stop that are as like perfectly definitive of themselves.

Speaker 1 (02:59:02):
Even just you saying effigy, they're forgotten. Just then I
was like, man, what a good title. What fucking death
metal as shit title? A title that probably taught a
lot of people, And effigy is you know, it's just
a it's a death metal word, whether you know it
or not. They had the Human Waste DP again came
before this, so that was what I really on relapse
this when they went on a road runner and this
is one of the real like early road runner death

(02:59:24):
metal stalwarts, along with Dawner, Possession and the early Dayside records,
which I think helped give them a lot of cred
for like the you know then the mid nineties kind
of explosion and the star power of them again, but
they were musically just evil and brutal and interested in
nothing else, seemingly, but you saw them live and you
saw you know, even the back photo of the of
the cover of this album, they just look fucking cool

(02:59:44):
and tough. Elliot, how kind of plugged are you into?
Sort of like Suffocation, you know, in the kind of
modern era. I've heard a few of.

Speaker 3 (02:59:54):
The records, like I really like the self titled blood
Oath is Good, Pinnacle of Pinnacle of Bedlam, I remember
coming out of really liking at the time. I kind
of I don't think I heard the one that came
out last year because I was very underwhelmed by of
the Dark Light, And once I found that Frank was leaving,
you know, no slot on the other guy, but I
kind of thought I can withstand a fair few lineup

(03:00:17):
changes in Suffocation, but losing Frank felt like maybe a
bridge too far, at least for me.

Speaker 1 (03:00:22):
It's an interesting choice that they've kind of because because
he'd been the live vocalist for a while, because Frank
Mullan stopped stopped touring. But it's interesting that they once
Frank was like, okay, I'm fully out now they took
the decision to be like, okay, yeah, now we're going
to kind of continue creatively. Yeah, their current output, I
think last two albums are kind of you know, they
were a right the decent.

Speaker 2 (03:00:40):
I liked that last album. I checked it out because
like pretty good.

Speaker 1 (03:00:44):
Yeah, they're holding down what they do. Like I said,
I really like Pinnacle of Bedline back when I was school.
I think that's maybe the last like amazing Suffocation record,
self titled album in the mid noughties, a bit of
a minor Classic's got Entrails of You on it, which
is the deathnital love song to rival Eating by blood
Buff And they are still absolutely brilliant life like if
you catch them at a death fest or something, it's
just fucking have you ever seen Suffocation live? Sam?

Speaker 2 (03:01:06):
I know they tore way to go, but I had
to miss it. If they do come back around out,
I want to I want to catch them on that
because I imagine they'd be disgusting.

Speaker 1 (03:01:13):
I remember saying them at Neverland's death Fest in the
big main room, in the fucking po podium right at
the thirteen and an entire room of heads like nodding
in time to that slam riff in leadership veracity, just
absolute like death metal mecha. If you've forgotten though, and
you know appeers from within which, like I said, many
people will claim as their favorite Thrown a Blood one
of the fucking hit one of the breakdowns. And I

(03:01:34):
really like Bring the Spawn as well, despite the production
being so bad that they've made it their life's mission
to re record every song on it, like a song
on every subsequent album, and they've still somehow not finished
that I was looking through and they still got one
fucking left to go. I like Breading the Sporn how
it is, but those are you know, perfect death metal texts,
and this does a you know, invent and master a

(03:01:56):
very specific strain of death metal acts most savage effigy
of the Forgot. Thank you very much for being with
us in this album club pack. I think Generation Swine
took about over an hour there in itself, which I
think is worthy of dissecting what happened there.

Speaker 2 (03:02:10):
But you know how Brandon is his son.

Speaker 1 (03:02:12):
Yeah, absolutely, but maybe some surprisingly meaty conversations about you know,
some of those shorter or slightly more you know, one
note in what they do releases, so let us know
what you think of them. If you've never heard f
do you've forgotten all songs to Scream at the Sun?
Does the Zion EP hold up. I would be curious
how people think cross faith kind of you know, does

(03:02:33):
it still hold up in the modern era, has it
been influential whatever? That is a lot this time. Thank
you very much for listening. We will be back. We're
one of these whenever we get around to doing one.
I know that next month is going to have a
lot of sort of festival stuff with obviously Outbreak and
so on happening, so we'll see what we managed to
slot in. But either way, we'll certainly have the next
part of Seperaturia Special coming up fairly soon. So yeah,

(03:02:54):
cheers for being here. We'll see you next time. Bye bye,

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