Jane Dorian, Historian

Today in studio with Alison is with Jane Dorian

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
How from love Y Hi's the Alison Ingraham Show. It
really is the Alison Ingram Show. And I'm Alison Ingram.
Although some of you may remember him is evil Nellie Elsen.

(00:31):
Luckily tonight I am Alison Aringram and this is the
Allison Ingram Show. And here on The Allison Ingram Show
we talk about things that make you feel good, the
movies and the TV shows that made us all feel good,
and people who made them, and people who are doing
things now to make the world a better and more
interesting place. Yes, okay, I know my audience. Okay, who

(00:53):
likes Jerry Herman? Hello, Hello, La Cash, Dolly, Hello, Maame, Yes, Terri, yes,
Terry Herman. Do I have him on?

Speaker 2 (01:01):
No?

Speaker 1 (01:01):
Unfortunately, No, that doesn't work that way. That's the you know,
the the the show where they interviewed the ghost people.
That's the other show. However, Jerry Herman has so much
going on. There's a new production of Dolly. There is
a whole foundation actually hold charity to teach young people
about music. And there's an auction. Do you want to

(01:23):
own some of his memorabilia? Oh? And even more interesting things. Yes,
this is all happening now, and I have with me,
the woman in charge of the whole thing. I have
the fabulous Yes, god daughter of Jerry Herman. Yes, Jane
Dorian Yay.

Speaker 2 (01:40):
Hello everyone, And what a pleasure to do good, what
a pleasure to.

Speaker 1 (01:46):
Do with you? How are you? How are you?

Speaker 2 (01:51):
So?

Speaker 1 (01:51):
Tell me your how did you become the god daughter
of of Jerry Herman, of all the people? And what
is that like?

Speaker 2 (01:58):
Well, it was a privilege and it was magical. But
here is the story. My mother and Jerry met the
first day of college when they were seventeen years old
at the University of Miami. They were the two skinniest
people on campus. They circled one another and they went
their separate ways, but as fate would have it, that night,

(02:19):
they both attended the same freshman party. Jerry was at
the piano playing the American Songbook. My mother, who was
a trained singer, sat down next to him on the
piano bench, started singing, and the two of them made
music together until the day she died. It was it
was a friendship. They were the brothers and sisters that

(02:41):
never wore. It was truly truly remarkable. So clearly when
I came into this world, I was Jerry's goddaughter, and
I was named after him, Jerry Jane, and literally there
was exactly and literally there was never a day without
Jerry until he passed away in two thousand and nine eighteen.

Speaker 1 (03:01):
Wow. Okay, wow, you are the envious so many people.
I would imagine that is fantastic to have ringside seats
for all of that, that incredible life, and it's never
gone away. I mean, obviously there are people who have
not even seen one of his musicals, but the things
from Mame, from Dallai, from Cash, from all of these

(03:22):
shows have permeated our culture and our language. People are
quoting these shows who haven't even been to the theater.
It's just this is just imprinted on everyone. It's the
most amazing thing.

Speaker 2 (03:34):
It really, Osuell. First of all, the American musical theater
is our art form more so than any other. And
I think as a nation we found our voice. I mean,
we battled so many social issues through musical theater and
we were able to do it with laughter, crying, great music,
great dancing, great acting, you name it. There wasn't anything

(03:58):
we couldn't discuss up on a stage. And one of
the things I admire most about Jerry's work is if
you look at a show like Hello Dolly, yes it's
a farce, and yes you laugh and everything else, Well,
what is it really about. It's about second chances, yes,
and many people forget that. It was the first happy
musical after the Kennedy assassination and oh wow, right art exactly,

(04:22):
and our country needed to heal, we needed to rejoin
the human race, just as Dolly Gallagher Levi says. And
so I think that was hugely important. And many people
may not know, but Louis Armstrong recorded Hello Dolly before
the Show Over opened. So so back in the day
there were forty fives. I'm hoping most of your audience

(04:43):
knows what a forty five is. Beside A was a
very famous song, something you were looking forward to. Inside
B was a throwaway. So when Louis Armstrong was in
the studio recording, one of his musicians said, hey, you know,
try this Dolly song here. He hadn't studied it, He
just lit winged it. Can you imagine he did.

Speaker 1 (05:02):
A cold read a fellow Dolly?

Speaker 2 (05:05):
He did, and it was so successful that it beat
the Beatles off the charts.

Speaker 1 (05:11):
Now. See I remember this because I was a little
girl in the sixties, but I was then, and it's
a huge Louis Armstrong fan. I don't know how many
six year old girls were like big Louis Armstrong fans.
I don't know why time, but I was like, it's great,
and I remember the song hearing constantly before I even
did the Lady sings a song that they okay, yeah,

(05:33):
but it was just another imprinted on our brains from
that time period. It's just incredible. I mean, God, what
was the A side? If that was the B side exactly?

Speaker 2 (05:44):
I can't even remember. Actually one of those nobody remembers
the exactly is that not hilarious? I actually have the
forty five at home. I need to flip it and see.
But it's a good question. So, and now people may
not know that Carol Channing was not the first choice
to play Hello Dolly played Dollie.

Speaker 1 (06:01):
I read that, which is amazing because we kind of
go wasn't she born with like a little form attached
to her saying will play Dolly? That? I mean, that's
what was she born to do if not play that doll? Yes.

Speaker 2 (06:15):
So Jerry had written the show thinking that ethel Merman
would play Dolly. Yes, and she was the eighth and
final Dolly on Broadway. So when she did go into
the show, he wrote a he wrote a new song
for her, a love look in My Window. So he
gave her a new song. And then Nanette Fabrae turned

(06:40):
it down.

Speaker 1 (06:41):
Whoa.

Speaker 2 (06:42):
And then Mary Martin was offered the role.

Speaker 1 (06:45):
Now that would be an odd choice. I can't I
can't know Mary Martin, love Mary Martin, but I'm going
Mary Martin. No ethel Merman, maybe no, no, okay.

Speaker 2 (06:54):
But Mary Martin was committed to another show which closed
three days after it opened. And and then there was
Carol Channing. Yes, right, it was meant to be I mean,
can more iconic? Yeah, that was great.

Speaker 1 (07:10):
Now there's a production now because Hello, Dolly never ends
and we'll never end. There is a production now going
on at the London Palladium. And I'm not sure I
think it's still going on now. Is looking look at
maybe going through October or the beginning of so I'm
hoping it is now. This is this is Londonpoladi Storring
his personal choice, Dame Emilda Staunton is in it.

Speaker 2 (07:33):
Well, that is true. So Jerry approved Emelda Staunton before COVID,
and then COVID happened. Jerry died it right before COVID,
and the production was waylaid, so he absolutely he was
thrilled that she was going to be playing Dolly. And
I always like to say, somewhere in the world every

(07:55):
night Jerry Herman Show is playing, and once that closes
in Paris, Carolina O'Connor will be starring at Hello Dolly
in Paris. Wait when in Paris, like in October, in
Paris November.

Speaker 1 (08:09):
Sorry darn it, because I am in Paris in October
and I'm like, oh, I'm going to that, okay, But
all over the world, okay, language is has Hello Dolly
been performed? Do we even know?

Speaker 2 (08:24):
I do not know off the top of my head,
but I could probably call Concord and find out.

Speaker 1 (08:30):
But it's a lot.

Speaker 2 (08:31):
I told you because it is.

Speaker 1 (08:33):
It's just mind blowing how the show's imprinted on people,
and then of course main and everything else. It's just incredible.
And then there's the whole foundation. I don't know if
everyone knows this, but the ASCAP Foundation Jerry Herman Broadway Legacy.
There is a whole thing where college students and there
is a whole a contest where they win, and there's

(08:54):
even scholarships.

Speaker 2 (08:55):
There's a whole thing exactly. So it was very important
for Jerry to help educate and give young people opportunities
to be in the musical theater because there really aren't
that many. And so he started a program. He worked
very closely with ASKAP and they have some concepts and
they develop it and tweak it over time, and they

(09:16):
travel to different universities and they do workshops and at
the end of the workshop, the students get to perform,
and if there's a student that is particularly gifted or
feels that they should go on, a scholarship is available
to them. And I just think it's a wonderful legacy
to have because I'm not aware of any other program
like this.

Speaker 1 (09:37):
I didn't I do not know. And so he's living forever.
It's basically to telling me through all of this. And
now there's an auction, and I'm just amazed that you know,
there's there's still things. I mean, it's been the stuff
that has not been auctioned or given away. There is
an auction of his memorabilia and that's coming up, and

(10:00):
and that is December fourteenth correction in December. What's included
in that, Well.

Speaker 2 (10:07):
First of all, if you want to see the entire collection,
go to Doyle dot com. That's d O Y l
e dot com and you can see everything with explanations.
But big spoiler alert, his piano is being auctioned. So yes,
so if you want to play the same piano that

(10:27):
Cherry played. And so I think that's pretty exciting. You've
got the Kennedy Center Award. We've got amazing photographs, amazing playbills,
some jewelry. I mean, the list just goes on and
on and on, pretty pretty remarkable stuff.

Speaker 1 (10:47):
And I was just talking to a friend before taping this,
and he's like, what I would do for anything, anything,
a playbill, anything from that auction's going to be open
ze exactly exactly.

Speaker 2 (11:00):
So there's another auction which is a little bit this.

Speaker 1 (11:03):
Is the crazy one this October. This is October, and
I don't know, maybe is this suitable since it's October
a twenty fifth, Perhaps it's a little suitable for October
for Halloween.

Speaker 2 (11:14):
Someone well, you know you are a wonderful journalist because
somebody basically wrote about the same thing. However, back in
the nineties, Jerry was presented with a health issue and
he needed to get his affairs in order, so romanticizing
all the glamorous people that he knew and he loved,
he thought, well, maybe it would be wonderful to spend

(11:35):
eternity with such stars as Billy Wilder, Jack Lemon, Farah Fawcett.
I mean, the list just goes on and on and on.
And this crypt that we are auctioning that is located
at Pierce Brothers Westwood Memorial, it's quite a mouseful, yes,
and not only are the some of the celebrities that

(11:57):
I mentioned buried there, so Marilyn Monroe and Hugh Hefner,
who happened to be on either side of the unused
crypt that Jerry purchased, right on that wall.

Speaker 1 (12:10):
Because Okay, for many of you who watch a show
or you're into this sort of stuff, yes, the famous
Westwood Cemetery if tourists and people who were into the
macab but also celebrity hunters. The Westwood. There's Hollywood Forever.
There's the big one up in the hills, and then
the Forest Lawn and then Westwood. There's more celebrities cramned.
It's a little beautiful, tiny little church yard behind a

(12:33):
movie theater in Westwood, behind this big office building. Everyone.
Minnie Ripperton is there, Dorothy Stratton is there, Maryland is there.
A whole multitude of famous people are in this tiny
little place, and in Hugh Hefner and Marilyn Monroe. And
you're telling me this crypt is in that wall, and
that's between Marilyn Monroe and.

Speaker 2 (12:55):
He you Havener exactly. So, so if you want to
spend eternity next to the two sexiest people that ever
lived and the you know, probably the most competent marketers
that ever lived, there's no community. But the other thing
that I think it makes it really special is you

(13:15):
never have to worry about your relatives and friends not
visiting you because it's such an outing. It's so much fun.
So I be a blast. And one last thing for
the crypt, so it's being auctioned by auction Solutions. So
if you go to auctionsolutions dot com, but you can
put one body in or for cremated earns. So if

(13:38):
a family wants to be buried together, a husband and wife,
you know, it's they're options.

Speaker 1 (13:45):
I had not thought of that. I just think there
were one person and I guess if you also were
like maybe, as you said, didn't want the relatives like,
well know, and could be very next to Marilynd's on
one side. He is on the other side, says nobody.
I don't know, it's gonna suddenly be next to me
in eternity. But you're saying you can actually be. People
do that. They put multiple eurns, so you could put
the whole family. Actually this one for it.

Speaker 2 (14:05):
That was your thing exactly. You never know. So do
you want to know why the crypt is empty?

Speaker 1 (14:11):
Well, see that's what look as I start went, now,
wait a minute, crypt Okay, I'm looking up. I'm going online.
He's he's not there. He's oh, he's off, he's in
He's in New Jersey, isn't he he is?

Speaker 2 (14:22):
You do excellent research. So in the eleventh hour he
decided he wanted to be buried next to his mother
and my mother. So they are all together, and I
am quite sure they're making a lot of music together
and laughing their heads off.

Speaker 1 (14:37):
It's a Mount Moriah. If anyone is looking, let's go
see him going, like find a grave Mount Moriah there
in New Jersey. It's a gorgeous place and that looks okay,
so mom, mom and your mom went out.

Speaker 2 (14:49):
Exactly his favorite ladies.

Speaker 1 (14:54):
What you okay? Your mother and his mother went out
over Marilyn Monroe.

Speaker 2 (14:59):
That says something, doesn't it's I'm staying awful.

Speaker 1 (15:01):
But that's a lot. Okay, Okay, this is so strange.
Okay you said, people said, why how are you auctioning
a crypt because of the last minutes ago got my mother,
for heaven's sakes, But he bought this, he owned this.
How long did he own this?

Speaker 2 (15:16):
Since? I think ninety three? Really it's either ninety three
or or ninety five. I can't bet. Definitely the nineties.

Speaker 1 (15:25):
It's just been hanging out there trusting case. Yep. Okay,
how much does something like that go for? Because Westwood
is not a big cemetery. If you've been out there,
it's very beautiful, filled with celebrities, but it would be very,
very pricey because there's not a lot of room. There's
a lot of rooms still at Forest Long, not a
lot of room in Westwood. Very nice neighborhood obviously, I imagine.

(15:49):
And then especially if you want everybody wants to have
one of the ones near Maryland and you have to
that would it has to be worth a fortune in
that circle of real estate.

Speaker 2 (15:59):
We will find out. I am not an appraiser, so
I have honestly have no idea. So I'm going to
leave this to the appraisers and the auctioneers and let
them figure that out. But I think it's an amazing
opportunity for somebody who wants it well.

Speaker 1 (16:15):
And then there are collectors. There are people, like I said,
the people who visit the cemetery and thing, who may
want to have it just to have it exactly, not
even use of themselves, but just say I have it
and go visit it.

Speaker 2 (16:27):
Bragging rights exactly, bragging rights.

Speaker 1 (16:31):
And this is going to be auctioned off, of course,
just in just in time for Halloween.

Speaker 2 (16:37):
But it's a cool auction because they are also auctioning
off Marlon Brando's tuxedo that he wore in The Godfather.

Speaker 1 (16:46):
Really, oh my god, So that's in the same Wait,
this is very weird auctions. You got Marlon Brando's tuxedo
and the crypt next to Marilyn and Hugh. What else
is in this one?

Speaker 2 (16:56):
I think some never before I'm seenior auction Maryland Memory,
and if I'm not mistaken, Marlon Brando's watch, so you know,
there's so it's a little bit on the darker side.
Jerry's stuff is like for the Doyle auction, it's all
happy memorabilia, you know, iconic. This is this one's a
little different.

Speaker 1 (17:14):
Okay, this is not an expected auction. I'm so glad
I'm not letting people know about this because I know
I actually know people would been on that. I know
people have been on that. And you know who I'm
talking to, you're out there, I know you there are
people who actually be into this. That is kind of
mind blowing. I just had never thought of that. And
where is just being auctioned? Is it Doyle? It's a

(17:35):
different group doing this, I mean who.

Speaker 2 (17:37):
Does is to different? So auctions now are online although
all the memorabilia is housed in New York City Doyle's.
Doyle's has got offices in New York, Miami and Los
Angeles Beverly Hills. So but you can view everything online.

Speaker 1 (17:54):
Okay, that's different. And if you're a notre if it
happened to be in LA, you just swing over to
Westwoods behind the Big we can go take a look
and go take a look a little lady, who's there?
Everybody's there? This is absolutely mind blake. Now, one of
the things I did not know that he had composed,
and this blew my mind and I wound up having
to go down the rabbit hole on the internet. Look
this up Barney the movie.

Speaker 2 (18:18):
Okay, so I will tell you how this happened. It's
a great story.

Speaker 1 (18:21):
We know Barney did I sort of show. But there
was Barnie the movie. I don't know how big a
hit it was. I don't I'm not four years old,
so I didn't go see it. But Barney the Movie
has a theme song sometimes theaters no less, that is
composed by Jerry. Hermant, how what happened? All right?

Speaker 2 (18:39):
So not only is Jerry my godfather, I asked him
to be my daughter's godfather as well. I figured lightning
does strike twice sometimes. So Sarah loved Barney the Dinosaur
as a little kid. So when we had the opportunity
to talk to Cheryl Lee, she said, do you mind
asking Jerry if he would write the theme song? So

(19:01):
I asked him and he said, well, since Sarah loves
Barney so much, I'll try. So Jerry got on the
floor and played with Sarah for three days. The first
two days he was just he was stupefied. He just
did he didn't get it. And on the third day,
the lightning bulb went off and he said, I'll be
right back. Because we always lived close to each other,

(19:22):
we both lived in bel Air at the time. He
runs down the hill to his piano and he writes
Barney's World of Imagination because he understood that Barney was
the conduit that unlocked the key to a child's imagination.

Speaker 1 (19:39):
And I loved it, like he didn't get it first,
because yes, those of us who are not hanging out
with a lot of toddlers are like Barney. Why, okay,
he's purple, he's a dinosaur. What does this mean? But
if you hang out with children who are into Barney,
eventually it just starts to make to you go. Oh,
so three days in he like the whole Barney thing.

Speaker 2 (20:03):
It's true. And so I don't know if your viewers
know this. But not only did he write both the
music and the lyrics, he usually wrote them simultaneously. There
wasn't like Okay, I'll write the you know, the melody,
and then I'll fill in with the words. It happened simultaneously.
Nor did he read or write music.

Speaker 1 (20:22):
He was reject what who? What?

Speaker 2 (20:26):
Yes, Jerry did not read music at all, and he
was rejected from Julliard twice. And they said you have
a gift, and if we train you, we will ruin
that gift. And oh boy, were they right. So he
played like a twenty piece orchestra. But he did not
read or write music. Neither did Irving Berlin.

Speaker 1 (20:47):
By the way, WHOA, Okay, that's amazing. I really I
did not know that about Jerry. I assumed that he
wrote me because you see people and they'll they'll write
the music, or they'll have the partners. The teams want writs,
music want its lyrics. They're often done complete separately. Sometimes
it's the music and then it's like, oh, now that
I hear it, I have my lyrics, or I wrote
this poem and oh that I have totally the music

(21:08):
for that. But to do it simultaneously one person, the
lyrics and the music at the same time, those are
different parts of the brain.

Speaker 2 (21:16):
They are, and they, as he said, it all just
came right through his fingers.

Speaker 1 (21:23):
And he did not read music.

Speaker 2 (21:24):
To the end.

Speaker 1 (21:25):
He didn't like at some point in his career, go,
I'll go, I'll take a look. No, it's so everything name,
Hello Dolly. This is all written by a person who
did done music exactly.

Speaker 2 (21:38):
There were times when he would he would fly across
country and he would write a couple of songs for
a show.

Speaker 1 (21:45):
Well, see, this is the thing you know when you're
talking about someone who is a genius. As you said,
the idea that Juilliard said, no, we don't even want
to mess with this. We don't know what this is
and we're not.

Speaker 2 (21:55):
Touching it exactly, and thank goodness they didn't.

Speaker 1 (22:00):
So what was he like? I mean as a person,
I mean this kind of mind. He had to be
completely different from other average people you would meet day
to day, because most people don't do that.

Speaker 2 (22:10):
Well, different only in that he had extraordinary intelligence. However,
he had the best sense of humor. He was so warm,
so loving, and I would say he was very glamorous
in his own way. He was introverted. But your viewers
may not know this, but he went to Parsons School

(22:32):
of Design. He thought he was going to be a
designer and decorator. So all of his homes were exquisite,
and his homes were in so many architectural digests and
house beautiful and homes and gardens. I mean it was
he was really quite talented. He must have purchased and

(22:53):
redone seventy five homes in his lifetime. I accused him
of having restless real estate disease.

Speaker 1 (23:00):
Yes, that's those people who like I'm one of them.
I've actually been in the same place now for more
than twenty years, which I never thought would happened, because
I absolutely was like, oh, time to move.

Speaker 2 (23:12):
But he really loved designing home. So wherever he went,
he was always impeccably dressed and his homes were stunning.
And you know, for me, he was always my uncle Jerry.
Most people thought of him as a celebrity or whatever,
but he was just my uncle Jerry. We had more
of a real life kind of a relationship. If I

(23:32):
needed advice, he was always there for me. If I
needed help with my homework, he would do you remember
those old telephones with the great cords that extended for
almost a football field. Okay, yeah, okay, so.

Speaker 1 (23:48):
How were you going to get into the other room? Exactly?

Speaker 2 (23:51):
So anyway, he would take a phone. I would call
him he because I you know, That was in the
day where you had two lines, the regular line in
the private line and only people.

Speaker 1 (24:00):
So I would call phone each other in the house
without cell phone, so had big honk and dial phones,
but there was a different line and you could call
each other. It was amazing.

Speaker 2 (24:09):
It was amazing. So anytime someone called on the private line,
he always picked up and it was me. I would say,
I'm having such a hard time with my Limerick homework.
Could you please help me? And he would tell whichever
celebrity or famous producer he said, will you excuse me
for one moment, and he would take this phone with
the chord and he would st you know, across his

(24:29):
townhouse and he sit on the floor and he would
take ten minutes and help me with my homework. So
he was he was truly remarkable.

Speaker 1 (24:37):
Wow, did just mind blowing to have that kind of
relationship and to seems this kind of bird. I'm loving this.
I didn't know any of this stuff. And the Barney thing, now,
was he the one? Did he choose Bernadette Peters to
sing it for the movie? Did?

Speaker 2 (24:51):
I was going to say that hurt and if you
heard that song, I think it's like a forty piece
orchestra or something. The sound is insane. It is so delicious.

Speaker 1 (25:02):
I just I went down this weird Barney rabbit hole.
I was like, wait, Barney, no, how is that? And
I'm going to Barnette Peters what is happening? And I
was just so amazed. And I listened to part of
it and that's like, this is like a huge Broadway show.
They did like a Broadway show Barney Musical opening track.

Speaker 2 (25:18):
True, it's true. It was pretty extraordinary. But you know,
Jerry would also be a show doctor for a couple
of shows, so A Day in Hollywood and Night in
the Ukraine. He wrote two amazing songs. He wrote one
called Nelson and then he wrote one that still brings
tears to my eyes called Best in the World, and

(25:40):
it's about an usher and how she becomes an usher.
And I think Dono mckechney saying it. If I'm not
mistaken it is. It's really quite something. Or Ben Franklin
in Paris.

Speaker 1 (25:54):
To be alone with you.

Speaker 2 (25:55):
I mean, there's some incredible songs that he wrote because
sometimes shows just need an next song and they're having
a hard time, so they would call him and he
would write.

Speaker 1 (26:03):
That song and you knew it. I mean, were there
songs from It had to be songs from his hit
musicals that were left out, because that was always a
weird thing where they take songs out when they hit
Broadway or to go to the movies.

Speaker 2 (26:15):
Well, yes, and well rarely did they come out for
the movies. I think more was actually added. But but
you make a very good point. So Jerry was such
a phenomenal collaborator. So when you have a show you
know better than anybody you know you need the librettis,

(26:35):
you need the composer, the lyricists, the director, the choreographer,
the star. And even if you've written the most brilliant
song in the world, if it's not working in the show,
you have to say, beautiful song, but it's just not working.
And Jerry was such a phenomenal collaborator that he was
very gracious if something wasn't working. And sometimes a song

(26:57):
like that may be repurpose down the line for something else.
But yes, there are several songs that you know, we're
not used and they are all treasures. And there's one
show called Miss Spectacular. Jerry did a concept album. It's
loosely based on a Walter Mitty concept about a girl
who goes to Vegas to seek her fame and fortune.

(27:17):
I hope we get that on the produced in the
not too distant future. But that is worth listening to
because the concept album has done. Faith Prince, oh my god,
Steve Lawrence, Michael Feinstein. I mean, the list just goes
on and on and on of the great vocalist who

(27:40):
sang a song. I think Christine Bransky sang one of
the songs. I mean, it's a lot of fun to
listen to.

Speaker 1 (27:46):
Well, sometimes the lost songs have broader I mean there's
there's a couple of albums have been put out of
like just all the songs that were like leve and
it's like they lets that out? How did they leave that?

Speaker 2 (27:56):
Yeah? So no, there are some very interesting songs and
when you hear them, you understand why they had to
but they're still very very good songs.

Speaker 1 (28:04):
You're right, the sort of hands on thing and it's involved.
But you know, there's all these stories about well about
Angela Lansbury and Angela Nsbury and name that he taught
her two of the songs. She like, she cheated it
was like an audition, but that he decided to get
involved and be in the orchestra pit and teach it.
How do you even get away with doing that? How

(28:26):
is that? Okay?

Speaker 2 (28:27):
So let's start. Let's start from the beginning with that story.
So Angela Lancey, So Jerry always knew he wanted Angela
Lansbury to play me for him. That was Angie was made.
But she had just finished Manchurian Candidate and if you
recall evil character, and she looked again and looked terrible.

(28:51):
So there was no way that the producers would just say, oh, sure.

Speaker 1 (28:56):
Because there's a rather dark story. Let's just say very dark,
really very very serious and you know my kind of
gal as far as the role, Yeah, but no, you
don't go let's put her in Maine.

Speaker 2 (29:10):
No, that's not exactly. And so she also she was
a very young woman when she did that, but her
character was obviously a lot older. So Jerry said, tell
you what, I'm going to teach you two songs from
the show, and I'm going to sneak into the orchestra
pit and I'm going to play your audition. And in

(29:31):
those days, all the stars really did audition. This whole
thing where I'm a star and I don't have to audition.

Speaker 1 (29:38):
I know, I'm kind of going Angela lands Worth and
chess off answer and having to audition seems weird. I
mean I get with like casting people get very they
get you know, super uber focused and go, well, you
were this, you can't be that, And I totally see
that happening. But the part where she has to actually
mount an entire audition and sing is like really really.

Speaker 2 (29:57):
Exactly, So it really wasn't for the casting director. It
was more the director and you know, the producer and
everything else. So clearly she nails this audition and that
was it. She was Maine.

Speaker 1 (30:11):
But I love that, and they just let him. They're like, well,
I decided to play the audition. He totally was allowed
to do that.

Speaker 2 (30:17):
Yeah, well he didn't ask permission. He just so you
don't ask for permission for stuff like that, you just
do it.

Speaker 1 (30:29):
Was he always in this sort of hands on, directly
involved with every show, always so expression Yeah, he his
parents owned a summer camp, and at summer camp he
put on all of the shows, so there wasn't a
part of the theater production he didn't touch as a
very young man, and I think that served him very,

(30:51):
very well.

Speaker 2 (30:52):
So there would be times when he would be looking
at at a performer singing and he would say, no,
we need to take off that blue jelly, put an
amber gel on them, and it completely transformed the stage.
But he understood all of that because there really wasn't
a part of the production that he didn't understand.

Speaker 1 (31:12):
Well, that's again again the guy who doesn't read music,
and yet it did it and delighting and everything. It's
just it's amazing. I mean, his legacy is just going
to continue forever. I'm just not seeing an end to this.

Speaker 2 (31:26):
This is hopefully there will never be an end, and
hopefully we'll get younger generations to appreciate his music and
understand it. I mean, I'd love to get some younger
singers artists record his songs so people can reinterpret, because
the beauty of Jerry's songs is that they'refore the ages,
you know. I think his genius was he was able

(31:49):
to write a song and the melody and the song
was simple but never cliche, and that takes such time.
There's nothing wasted. It's not flowery or misleading in any way.
He just kind of tells it the way it is
and it resonates with you and it sticks with you.

(32:11):
People always say, you know, I left a Jerry Herman
show singing the music because he understood melody.

Speaker 1 (32:19):
And are you seeing younger audiences still taking to these shows?
Because I mean, I know my age to here wy
Hello Dollies again. It's it's a Lundon Palladium. It's happening again.
It's going to be happening in Paris. But that they're
still packing the house for these shows. That and that
it's not people just going for nostalgia. New people are

(32:41):
coming to this show. How how does this phenomenon work
that all of these shows through the years that he's
produced are still resonating with people. How does that work?

Speaker 2 (32:52):
Because I a lot of I think a lot of reasons. One,
his music is so good, I mean, and it's again
it's music for the ages. But he also chose the
underlying material very very well. He always loved period pieces
because he felt they never went out of style.

Speaker 1 (33:11):
Oh I would know something about that.

Speaker 2 (33:16):
So anyway, So I think when you write the truth,
each generation has the opportunity to experience it and interpret
it for themselves. And I don't care. I mean, any
mother has always felt if you walked into my life today.
Whether they've had a son or a daughter, it doesn't

(33:36):
matter that moment when you have to let your child
go and you don't even know if they're making good
choices or bad choices, But you say, would I make
this same mistakes? Would I make the same choices again
if that child came back into my life? It's pretty
heavy duty stuff. I mean, bosom buddies, don't we all

(33:57):
have a friend that we sort of love and hate
and all at the same time. We I mean, it's
the best.

Speaker 1 (34:04):
Well, and then you have topics like La Cash, which
became songs which became anthems for the entire game, lesbian
liberation movement in some places.

Speaker 2 (34:16):
Well, that may have been socially his most important show,
because you're right, many of the songs did become anthems.
And also, I don't know, have you ever heard Leslie
Uggam's version of I Am What I Am?

Speaker 1 (34:30):
Ooh? I don't know, but that's Babe protected right away.
I'm like, yes, I want to hear that.

Speaker 2 (34:35):
It's astounding. It's astounding because she has as much right
to sing it and the way she owns it as
a gay man who is essentially asking for acceptance. But
that show came at a very unique time in history.
It was nineteen eighty three. It was before the scourge

(34:56):
of AIDS.

Speaker 1 (34:58):
It was right at the beginning, people we just becoming.
It was still people were talking about grid and arc
and it was just breaking, and the organizations were just
starting in tiny little garages and rooms. And it hadn't
broken for most people yet Rock Hudson, that hadn't happened yet.
It was tiny groups of people talking about this terrible

(35:19):
thing that was decimating the population, but mainstream meeting was
not dealing with it.

Speaker 2 (35:23):
At all exactly. So here you've got nineteen eighty three,
and this was before you know, gay and lesbian rights
and everything else. And so Jerry and Harvey really had
a choice to make, which was, you know, do we
fight and be militant maybe too strong of award, but
take a very strong stance, or do we try and

(35:46):
win the hearts and minds of the larger audience to
make them understand that we have families that you know,
we love, just like heterosexual couple's love. And so when
they couples holding hands after song on the sand, and
when they got a standing ovation, when the lead characters

(36:11):
kiss at the end of the show. They knew that
the audience believed the love story and believed that they
were all family. Cut to six months later, all but
one of the Cazals had died from AIDS.

Speaker 1 (36:27):
I know when I was talking to Carol Channing one
time and she talked about how close she was with
all of the young men in Dolly and how many
of them had died, and at the time I talked
to her, shit, I think there's two less and you know,
and how that had devastated her. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (36:46):
I mean, Jerry had a read appointment book or a
dress book, and he started having to cross names out
one by one, and one day he just took his
address book and stuck it in the drawer and never
took it out again. It was just it was just
too painful. Yeah, it was a terrible time. And yet yep,
and yet when it was disclosed that Jerry had tested

(37:11):
positive for HIV, he was so brave and so courageous
because he became the face of being positive and he said,
I'm not going to let this down. It's not a
death sentence, and I'm going to go on and I'm
going to live, and that he did, and then Protea's
inhibitor came and AZT came along. He managed He lived

(37:34):
to eighty eight.

Speaker 1 (37:36):
Incredible, incredible, said, I was friends with Steve Theaters, a
long term survivor. But yeah, how many years did Jerry
live with it?

Speaker 2 (37:43):
That's incredibly long time, A very long time, probably close
to thirty years.

Speaker 1 (37:49):
Yes, yes, okay, see another long term survivor.

Speaker 2 (37:55):
Yep. So it's and I'm sure part of that was
his amazing attitude as well. So I'm so glad that
I'm glad he was spared. But my heartbreaks for all
those that didn't make it because we lost so much.
I think Broadway was decimated. We lost so much talent.
You think about Michael Bennett, you know, you think about

(38:16):
Gower Champion, You think about all of these greats who
could have gone on to give us so many more
musicals and teach so many young people.

Speaker 1 (38:24):
You know, the art of Broadway, the entire the theater world,
the film world, the music world. It's just whole groups
of I had a man tell me who taught architecture
and talked about how you have schools of architecture. But
just because that group of people who all graduated around
the same time created these kind of things. He said, well,

(38:45):
we've lost a school of architecture, probably two or three.
And he says, just translate that too. The film community,
the music community, the theater community, of what types, entire
genres of that entertainment just didn't happen.

Speaker 2 (39:02):
It's it's heartbreaking, it's truly truly heartbreaking. So here we
are today, at least it's at least it's a way
happier story. And I'm hoping that the arts community will,
we'll find it distraction again, particularly in the areas of
architecture and Broadway, and and they will.

Speaker 1 (39:22):
That's why just so incredible to see that with office
in Jerry's case, his legacy just is unending. That everything
he did is still here and is still going on,
and all of his shows are still happening over and
over again, and now all of his stuff, I mean,
you're well, you are, you're the keeper of the flame.
You are the official proprietor of the whole estate. That

(39:44):
must be an enormous job, are you having. You have
to deal with all the musical rights as well.

Speaker 2 (39:49):
Yes, Unfortunately they're wonderful eternities and agents and things like that,
but you know, I think the the responsibility is making
sure that Jerry's music is heard, but also heard in
a way that he would want it heard, not taking
crazy chances, not doing anything weird with the music. So

(40:13):
it's really it's a privilege. It's a joy. I literally
wake up every single day with a Jerry Hermann song
on my lips, and it's like, oh, it's today, you
know it just you never know. But Jerry has some
amazing shows that are not produced as much. So everyone
knows the three big ones. They know, Hello, Dolly, Mame,

(40:35):
and Lakage. There is also Milk and Honey And for
your audience, that was his first Broadway show, and for
those that are unfamiliar with it, I encourage you to
listen to it. The music is so lush, and it
is in that show that he makes and fulfills the
promise of his musical powess. I mean the songs. I

(40:56):
just let's not waste a moment. I dare you to
listen to that song without shedding a tear at the
end of the you know, at the end of the song.
And then there's Mac and Mabel, which I think has
officially reached cult status. For those who don't know, it's
loosely based on the life of Max Seneate and Mabel Norman.
Max Senet, being one of the giants of Silent Films,

(41:18):
came out to California and he finds, quite by accident,
this incredible star named Mabel Norman, and she falls in
love with him, and he just doesn't have love in
his heart to give her. And the show has a
very dark, sad ending. But the music is it's just legendary.
I mean, Bernadette Peters, Time Hills, everything, it's iconic at

(41:43):
this point.

Speaker 1 (41:46):
So these auctions, is there going to be Is there
going to be more coverage? Is there going to be
it's all online? Is there going to be television coverage?
With the person who gets the crypt when they go
to the cemetery? Is that going to be an event?

Speaker 2 (42:01):
Well, I think it should be.

Speaker 1 (42:03):
You I think I think there's event we could all
go to.

Speaker 2 (42:05):
Yeah, I think so too. You'll definitely be on the
invitation list. So but I think that's actually a great idea.
That's something I hadn't thought of, But I think I
think that would be so much fun.

Speaker 1 (42:18):
Well, and then of course it would just add promo
to the upcoming one in December, so that you'd have
more people bidding there. Just you're good, Well, I can't
imagine what the bit is going to be. Like his piano,
I mean.

Speaker 2 (42:30):
That, yeah, that's pretty that's pretty special. So the only
really big pianos that I'm aware of that have that
have gone to auction. Irving Berlin's piano is auction, and
I leave Liberaci's piano as auction too.

Speaker 1 (42:44):
At least one of them, at least one of them
want me to spread around. You get enough of the pianos,
there are there any particularly unusual items, I mean besides
the crypt I mean anything in the regular auction with
the piano and stuff that people would want.

Speaker 2 (43:04):
There's some artwork and I'm just trying to go actually,
forgive me for doing this. I've got some pictures here
and let me just see if I can for me.
The most interesting are some of the letters and the
photographs to have a piece of that history. There's actually
a key from a piano that Jerry has signed on there,

(43:28):
so I think that's that's kind of fun. Some pretty remarkable.
There's a wonderful a photograph that Ken Duncan took of Jerry.
I like it all right. So with Jerry sitting on
a piano holding a Judy doll. He loved Judy Garland.

(43:49):
His favorite Judy Garland poster, I believe at the Palladium
was is going to be auction. He's got some furniture
that's going to be auction, some very special, some jewelries.
There was just so much. It was a mad house
while they were packing everything.

Speaker 1 (44:06):
So there must be letters and things from other celebrities
and people were in new shows to him.

Speaker 2 (44:13):
There are and one of the things, so yes to
some of that. But also I'm in the process right
now of going through all of his personal letters, and
those will be given to a Library of Congress so
that everyone can enjoy them. So some things are for
auction and some things are for everybody to take a

(44:35):
peek at if they want. And a lot of Jerry's
stuff is also at the Smithsonian. That was a contribution
he made while he was still alive. Oh nice, I'll
tell you the fabulous thing I just remembered as I'm
going through the walls. He has these huge subway posters.
You know what those are the posters of the shows,

(44:57):
but in the subways, they're massive.

Speaker 1 (44:58):
They're like been subway posters of each.

Speaker 2 (45:02):
One of the shows. So there, I think they're like
and now I.

Speaker 1 (45:06):
Want okay, now I want something. I want a subway post.

Speaker 2 (45:09):
Okay. They're beautiful, they're incredible. And then there's also a
loose sight box of Carol Channing. It's like a collage
and it was always the centerpiece of his office. So
if you go online you'll see this wonderful uh loose
sight box of Carol, you know, of a collage of

(45:31):
Carol Channing. It's quite quite amazing. I think there may
be a couple of Hirshville type posters in there. There's
a lot of good stuff, a lot of show posters.
No one will be disappointed.

Speaker 1 (45:44):
And this is a Doyles Deo Wiley as Doyle's auction
which they can find online. And that's then in December
that's the big auction December.

Speaker 2 (45:55):
Right December fourteenth, and on October twenty fifth Auction Solutions.

Speaker 1 (46:00):
And that's the one with the crypt but also also
Marlon Brando's Texedo. So oes, yes, not just for people
to want to buy a grave, it's more.

Speaker 2 (46:08):
Things exactly, well is it you might want to buy
the tuxedo to wear when you go in the crypt?

Speaker 1 (46:15):
Right, did you be in Marlon Brando's texedo in Jerry
Herman's crypt next to Marilyn Monroe and you have to
That was the most like mad libs name droppy sentence.
This is absolutely fascinating. I'm just like, yeah, when I
heard about this, as like Jerry Herman wait and then
his crypt and wait what what Barney the Dinosaur and

(46:35):
I just feel like, yes, I've gone down the rabbit
hole and it's like, oh, yes, Jerry Herman wait, And
these are all things I did not know. I am
just like gobsmacked.

Speaker 2 (46:43):
Here. That's Jerry too. So he loved cats. He had
two cats that he adored. First one was Missus lee By.
She was an all black cat of course right, and
the only person in the world she loved was Jerry.
Everybody else fair game to bite. So I would go

(47:03):
to Jerry's home on Fire Island. He loved Fire Island
so much. And we were playing pickup sticks and Missus
Levi thought it was hysterical, and she took her paw
and started playing pickup sticks with us, and he scolded her.
He said, Missus Levi, you may not cheat, and then

(47:25):
he had just an adorable cat named Barnaby.

Speaker 1 (47:29):
And this was.

Speaker 2 (47:34):
And probably the friendliest cat that I have ever had
the pleasure of knowing. So so he definitely definitely loved
animals as well.

Speaker 1 (47:46):
All right, now, one more time, where do people find
the auctions.

Speaker 2 (47:50):
Doyle dot com and Auction Solutions dot com.

Speaker 1 (47:55):
So it is.

Speaker 2 (47:58):
So you can find it. And also if you go
on the website Jerryherman dot com, if you go to
the little contact bar, you can you can find me there.

Speaker 1 (48:09):
Oh fantastic, because we wanted to Now have you done?
Is there a book? Have you written a book? Are
you going to write a book?

Speaker 2 (48:15):
You know what? Right now, I am going through all
the papers first. Let's in about a year's time, why
don't we talk and we'll talk about the book. But
there are several books written about Jerry and they're all
worth reading. They you know, they I think they do
a wonderful job of showing the different facets of his life.
You know, he was so close to his mother, and

(48:36):
he lost his mother so early in life. I think
she was forty one or forty two years old. His
mother and I were twelve hours apart. I in November.
We almost share the same birthday. Just all all sorts
of very interesting things you can learn about his college
life and just all the ups and downs of his career.

(48:57):
I mean, he wrote three very successful broad shows, one
right after the other, and then he had three that
didn't do so well and then lakage. So you know,
he's certainly an example of perseverance.

Speaker 1 (49:12):
Well, I would love to read a book by you,
because the personal view of him, the personal connection of
him in his regular day to day life, just sounds
absolutely so wonderful and so incredible. All right, So I
highly recommend you go check out the website, check out
to you her website, check out all the auctions, folks,
and if you really want to drive yourself crazy and
you haven't heard it, go look up Barney the movie

(49:35):
and there's the theme song with Bernadette Peters. Mind blown,
mind blown. Thank you so much for coming on the show.

Speaker 2 (49:43):
Thank you you are divine, delicious and I've just so
enjoyed my time with you.

Speaker 1 (49:48):
Oh, thank you. And I hope the auction does massively
well and the money from the auction there's a benefit involved.

Speaker 2 (49:53):
Yes, there is, so Jerry's foundation through as Gap going
to All proceeds go to his his workshop and scholarships,
which is incredible.

Speaker 1 (50:03):
So just a fantastic thing. Go somebody go buy that
piano and thank you so much. And when you do
write a book, we'll have you back.

Speaker 2 (50:10):
Luck deal, all right, take care, thank you, thank you
so much.

Speaker 1 (50:15):
I'm Alison Argham. Thank you

Speaker 2 (50:20):
Have on wetastic button.