42 | John Wayne Gacy

John Wayne Gacy is one of the most notorious serial killers in the world. He was convicted of 33 murders, but are there more? and did he do it alone? ---- twitter: @apexandabyss instagram: @apexandabyss email: [e-mail] Website: apexandabyss.com ---- Links: patreon.com/apexandabyss https://www.teepublic.com/user/apexandabyss?utm_source=designer&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=GrKlkl5b82M ---- Music: Kai Engel - Global Warming Ars Sonor - Efterdyningen Chris Zabriskie - I Am A Man Who Will Fight For Your Honor

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hey everyone, it's Erica. Ihave a quick announcement that I want everyone
to take a few seconds to listento the Apex and the Abyss will be
going on hiatus in the fall oftwenty nineteen. I know I have had
a sporadic schedule the last year orso, but typically I didn't see those
delays coming, and to be honest, I didn't want them. However,
this time around, I know thatmy schedule of this fall is going to
be jam packed and I will nothave as much time to dedicate to the

(00:22):
show as I would like. Iwant to state that this show is not
going away. I just need asmall break to focus on spending time with
family and my fall semester at school. During this break, I will be
resetting and planning a restructuring of theshow. While I'll be busy with the
lot this fall, I will stillbe writing and working on cases. My
end goal is to start releasing episodeswithin a structured season and have scheduled time

(00:43):
off. So with that update,please don't unsubscribe, because, like I
said, the show isn't going anywhere. I just need some time, like
we all do at some point inour lives. I wanted to give you
guys full transparency as to why therewill be some radio silence in the next
few months, and I hope youwill still keep sticking around with that on
with the show. This episode ofThe Apex and the Abyss contains graphic descriptions,

(01:10):
audio, and language that may beunsettling to some individuals. Listener discretion
is advised. I recently got homefrom my trip to Chicago. When I
was there, I took part inthe first ever true crime podcast Festival.
It was such an incredible time andevent. I was so thrilled to interact

(01:33):
with listeners of this show and tomeet some of my friends. This was
the first time I met any ofthem face to face. This trip to
Chicago ticked off quite a few firstsfor me. This was the first time
I ever had flown on a plane, my first podcast festival, and my
first time to Illinois. While there, I tried my best not to stick
out like a tourist, but atthe same time, I wanted to see

(01:57):
what made Chicago so great. Comingfrom a popular city myself, I was
curious as to what Chicago stand outplaces, food and scenery was like.
The food I divulged was incredible,but that alone could be a podcast in
and of itself. My husband andI had the opportunity to check out Cloudgate,
or the Bean as it's called tosome. This is an art piece

(02:20):
by Anish Kapoor that is located inMillennium Park. The piece itself is said
to weigh around one hundred and tentons and is inspired by liquid mercury.
It's a gorgeous piece of art andfar more breathtaking than I imagined it would
be. We were also able tocheck out the Art Institute of Chicago and
see Van Goh, Chagal, SaratHopper. The list goes on and on,

(02:44):
but I couldn't pass up the opportunityto see the Institute while on this
trip. The art historian in mewould be highly disappointed. Chicago is a
city that is famous for so manythings art, food, and we can't
forget about Wrigley Field. But justlike any place, there is a grim
underbelly of history that lurks in theshadows as well. In fact, one

(03:06):
of the world's most notorious and bileserial killers set up shop there. You're
listening to the Apex and the Abyss, and this is the story of John
Wayne Gaysey. Gaycy, a buildingcontractor, was arrested in December nineteen seventy
eight in connection with the disappearance ofa fifteen year old boy. Later that

(03:30):
month, police began uncovering bodies froma crawl space under Gaycey's suburban Chicago home.
Twenty nine bodies were eventually found onGaysey's property, four others found in
a nearby river. Gaycey had confessedto the killings, but his lawyers claimed
he was insane. Gasey said hehas four personalities. John Wayne Gaysey is

(03:52):
an infamous serial killer who within sixyears became responsible for the deaths of at
least thirty three young men and boys. Gaysey would viciously rape, torture,
and murder his victims, all withinhis home, and then bury them either
in his crawl space somewhere in hisyard, or dispose of them at a
local river. Gayzy had already beencharged with a sex crime long before news

(04:15):
would break about his serial killings,and yet at the time that this story
did break, it was shocking.Gaysey was a popular individual in his community.
He was a fairly successful businessman,and he partooking charity events where he
would dress up as a clown forpeople's amusement. As human beings, we
all have frayed edges, quirks,and even odd practices that would either weird

(04:39):
out or not make sense to anotherperson. But it is safe to say
that people were not expecting to findout what type of frayed edges John Wyne
Gaysey had. His crimes are horrificand quite graphic, so I'm going to
issue another warning here, but asalways, before we dive into the appalling
crimes of John Wayne Gaycy, weneed to take a few steps back and

(05:01):
start at the very beginning in ourattempt to answer the elusive question as to
why why did he do the thingsthat he did and what, if anything,
contributed to him becoming the monster thathe was. He might be witnessing
where the most horrible crimes, perhapsin a century. John Wayne Gaysey was

(05:30):
born in Chicago, Illinois, onMarch seventeenth, nineteen forty two, to
Marian and John Stanley Gaycy. JohnWayne Gaysy was the second out of three
children that would be born to thecouple, and he was their only son.
Throughout his childhood, Gaysey was closeto his sisters and mother. Their
bond was easily formed and held.However, when it came to his relationship

(05:53):
with his father, closeness did notcome as easy. John Stanley was a
World War One veteran, and nowthat his service in the war was over,
he became an auder repair machinist toprovide for his family. Marrying.
Gayzy was a homemaker and very closeto her children. She dared best to
protect them, specifically young John,against her husband's drunken rages. It wouldn't

(06:17):
be uncommon for John Stanley to comehome from work, disappear into his basement,
and only emerge to target his son. John Stanley would beat his son
for no reason whatsoever, sometimes tothe point where the young boy would pass
out. John Stanley would even goa step further and occasionally beat him with

(06:38):
a razor strap. John Wayne Gayzywould later state that one of his earliest
memories in his life was of abatinghis father was giving him when he was
around four years old. Allegedly,the young toler had gotten his hands on
a car engine that his father wasputting together and took some of the components
out to John Wayne Gayzy. Hewas just playing, but his father didn't

(07:00):
view it that way, so hebeat him. Despite the fact that the
boy was beaten mercilessly by the handsof his father, John Wayne Gazey still
longed for his approval, however,he would rarely get it. On top
of the physical abuse he endured,John Stanley would frequently put down his son.
He would criticize him for everything,his weight, his intelligence, and

(07:23):
he would make derogatory and homophobic commentsto the boy. You see, John
Wayne gaze suffered from a heart conditionearly on in his life. It was
severe enough that doctors told him thathe was to avoid practically all strenuous physical
activity. This meant that the youngboy was forbidden to play sports and things
of that nature. This was justone more thing to add to John Stanley's

(07:46):
long list of disdain for his son. Marian hated seeing her son being so
poorly treated and did her best tocurb her husband's rages, but it was
to no real avail. John Stanleyalways found some way to take out all
of his anger on John Wayne.He would detest the closeness that his son
had towards his wife and would oftencall him a mama's boy, along with

(08:07):
more disgusting remarks when John Wayne Gaycywas about seven years old, he,
along with another boy, would molesta young girl. When John Stanley found
out about this, he would severelybeat his son. Also around this time,
John Wyne Gayzy would be molested bya family friend. This friend would

(08:28):
take young Gaysy for rides in histruck and then the man would assault the
boy. Gaysey would later state thathe never told his parents about this incident
out of fear of his father's reaction. John Stanley often spoke of how his
son would grow up to be ahomosexual, and John Wayne felt as though
that this information may fuel that rage. Due to the fact that it had

(08:48):
been a male who molested him,he was afraid that his father would blame
him. Over the course of thenext few years, not much would improve
for John Wayne Gayzy. He waseleven years old, he was struck hard
on the head by a playground swing. This would cause him to have blackouts,
a symptom he would experience for fiveyears until he went to the doctors

(09:11):
and they noticed that he had abloodclot on his brain. Whether or not
the swing had anything to do withsaid bloodclot is up for debate, but
luckily they were able to fix thisissue with medication. Taking a step back
to his heart condition, the lackof physical activity would cause him to gain
weight. This extra weight would alsoresult in him being bullied while at school.

(09:33):
Despite this, Gaysey did have ahandful of friends within the school and
his neighborhood. During his adolescence,he would have some more health issues.
He would experience seizures and then labor. His appendix would burst, causing him
to be hospitalized. However, JohnStanley believed that this condition was just aroused
that his son was using to gainattention. He would even go so far

(09:56):
as to say the doctors were wrongand that John Wayne Gaysy had no such
conditions. Over the years, therelationship between father and son never really changed,
even as the young Gaysee grew intoa man. By the time he
was in his mid to late teens, you would think that now that he
was more evenly matched with his father, the beatings would either stop or the

(10:18):
young Gaysee he would defend himself.However, this never happened. Whenever John
Stanley began to beat his son,all John Wayne would do was put his
hands up to protect his head.He never struck his father back not once.
When John Wayne Gaysee he turned eighteen, he dove into politics. He

(10:39):
began working with the Democratic candidate inhis neighborhood as an assistant precinct captain.
Around the same time, John Stanleypurchased a vehicle to give to his son.
The car would be in John Stanley'sname and his son was required to
make the monthly payments and pay forthe upkeep of the car, a reasonable
request from any parent when they buya vehicle for their child. But like

(11:01):
with everything that came from John Stanley, this gift was not just a kind
gesture. It was a power moveover his son. You see, whenever
John Wayne disobeyed his father or didsomething that irked his father, John Stanley
would take the car back, showingto his son that he had zero control.

(11:22):
However, after one particular incident ofconfiscation and then returning the vehicle,
John Wayne Gacy would get into hiscar and leave his childhood home behind.
He would drive almost eighteen hundred milesto Las Vegas, Nevada. Once he
got there, he managed to finda job at a place called Palm Mortuary.
He was an attendant at the mortuaryand he would stay at this job

(11:43):
for three months. Gaysy, havingno place to go, was allowed to
sleep on a cot near the embalmingroom within the mortuary. One night,
while alone, Gaysy decided to jumpinto a casket with the body of a
dead teenaged male. He would cuddlethe young man's body and hold them for
some time before he realized how deeplywrong it was. This wrong feeling sat

(12:07):
in the pit of Gaysey's stomach,so much so that he would reach out
to his mother to see if hewas allowed to come home. After a
brief discussion with her husband, JohnStanley, and Marian told their son he
could come back to them in Illinois. Gaysey wasted no time and left practically
the moment after he hung up thephone with his parents. Upon his return

(12:31):
to Chicago, Gaysey would begin classas at Northwestern Business College, which is
surprising since Gaysey had dropped out ofhigh school. However, he somehow managed
to enroll in the school. Afterhe graduated from Business College in nineteen sixty
three, Gaysey would get a managementtraining job at a shoe company. After
about a year into the position,Gaysey would be transferred to another store in

(12:54):
Springfield, Illinois, which is aboutthree hours away from Chicago. He would
briefly work as a salesman at thisstore, but was quickly promoted to the
manager of the department in which heworked. Nineteen sixty four seemed to be
a wonderful year for Gaycey. Hewould become involved with an organization called the
United States Junior Chamber, or thejc's as it's commonly referred. This organization

(13:20):
is for people from the ages ofeighteen to forty years old. Within this
organization, you will gain leadership trainingand a better understanding of civic organization,
management skills and community service. Hewas also extremely successful at his job.
On another positive note, he wouldget engaged to a woman by the name

(13:41):
of Marilyn Myers. Gaysey would meetMarilyn when he first came to Springfield.
The two were co workers, andafter a nine month engagement, the pair
would get married in September of nineteensixty four. Soon after the wedding,
Gaysey's father in law asked him ifhe wanted to manage three Kentucky Fried Chicken
establishments that he owned. The onlycatch to this proposition was that the location

(14:05):
was in Waterloo, Iowa. Johnand Marilyn agreed to this opportunity and made
the almost three hundred mile trek toWaterloo. Thankfully, they already had a
place to stay. Marilynd's parents wouldgive the newlyweds the home they owned in
Waterloo. The manager job was awonderful opportunity for the Gaysey family. John

(14:26):
would make a high income salary andthe pair did not want for much.
Upon moving to Waterloo, John joinedthe local jc's. He enjoyed his time
with the organization in Springfield and waseager to continue on with the work in
Waterloo, though his schedule was quitehectic. He would spend almost fourteen hours
a day managing all three KFC establishments, and then he would spend a few

(14:50):
hours at night with the j c's. It wouldn't be uncommon for Gaysey to
brag about all the things that hedid, how much money he had,
and how he had endless ambition inlife. That's just who he was.
But simply put, John Wing Geesywas beloved by many people. He would
partake him many fund raising projects andwould help out anyone in need. He

(15:11):
was even given the nickname of theColonel because he was known for bringing fried
chicken to the JC meetings. InFebruary of nineteen sixty six, John and
his wife Marilyn would welcome their firstchild into the world, a boy by
the name of Michael Gaysey. Alittle over a year later, the couple
welcomed their second child, Christine Gaysey. It would be at this moment that

(15:35):
John Wayne Gayzy received what he hadalways longed for, the nod of approval
from his father. John Stanley sawhow much his son had grown into a
hard working family man and would pullhim aside to tell him how proud he
was of him and that he wassorry for all the horrors that he made
him endure as a boy. JohnWyne Gayzy would recall that at this time

(15:56):
in his life, happily married,two beautiful children and the respect of his
own parents, was the happiest timeof his life. Unfortunately, this happiness
would not last long. From theoutside, John Wayne Gaysey lived a picture
perfect life, a beautiful wife,two happy children, and a wonderfully successful

(16:19):
work life, but looks can bedeceiving. Before coming to Iowa, and
while still in Springfield, John Gayseywould engage in sexual activity with another man.
The man had been a member ofthe Jay seas in Springfield, and
after many drinks, this man wouldperform oral sex on Gaycy. Fast forward
to Waterloo, Gaysey would partake indrug use, wife swapping, and frequent

(16:41):
sex workers. As much as JohnWayne Gaycy appeared to be a loyal and
devoted family man, he was actuallyquite the opposite. It is also said
that Gaysey used his basement as adesignated hangout for his young employees to drink,
playpool, and relax. The onlypeople who get invited to the basement
would be young men that he workedwith. At first, these hangouts were

(17:03):
innocent, albeit a little weird toan outside viewer. What grown man would
want to hang around teenage boys,But no one would suspect John Gaycy of
anything nefarious. After some time,John had groom some of these young men,
he would begin to make advances onthem. After gaining the trust of
these young boys and providing them alcoholand drugs, he would attempt to engage

(17:26):
in sexual activity with them. Ifthey told him now or rejected his offer,
Gasey would brush off whatever advance hemade on his employee like he just
made them in jest, like oh, I'm just kidding. However, in
August of nineteen sixty seven, Gasey'sluck and the front he had put on
for the public would shatter. JohnWayn Gasey would sexually assault a fifteen year

(17:48):
old boy by the name of DonaldWorheys. Donald's father and Gacy worked alongside
each other in the jac's At first, Gaysey got Donald to come over to
his house on a pro alcohol andto watch porn in his basement, but
he led them there under false pretenses. For months, Gaysey would lure Donald

(18:10):
into his basement, supply him withalcohol, and forced the young man to
perform oral sex. Gasy threatened Vorheesand intimidated him not to reveal anything that
was going on. During this time, Gaysy was subjecting many teenage boys to
similar abuses. He sometimes would paythe boys fifty dollars each to engage in
sexual acts with him, saying itwas for research. In March of nineteen

(18:33):
sixty eight, Donald Vorhes told hisfather what was going on in Gaysie's home.
Donald's father called the authorities at once, and John Gaysy was arrested and
charged with sodomy along with attempted sexualassault of another teenage boy. Gaysey would
state that Donald's father was only accusinghim because he was running against him in
elections. Amongst the jac's many peoplebelieved that John Gaysy was innocent of the

(19:00):
accusations, but that didn't matter.John Gaysey would be indicted with a sodomy
charge on May tenth, nineteen sixtyeight. This indictment did not deter Gaysey
from continuing on his depraved path.It appears as though he would stop assaulting
young teenage boys for the time being, but he would use one in particular.
To do his bidding. Gasey wouldget eighteen year old Russell Schroeder to

(19:22):
physically threaten Donald vorheis. Russell gotDonald to come with him to a secluded
area, where he proceeded to spraymace into his eyes and beat him while
laying on the ground. Russell toldDonald that he was not to testify in
Gaysey's trial. Somehow Donald was ableto get away from Russell, and he
immediately told the authorities what had happened. Soon after the crime, Russell Schroeder

(19:47):
was arrested, and he would confessthat Gaysey had offered him money to intimidate
Donald. This would lay in Gaysyadditional charges, and he was forced to
be evaluated by mental professionals. Theydetermined that he had anti so personality disorder,
but he was competent enough to standtrial on his sodomy charge. On
December third, nineteen sixty eight,John Wayne Gaysey was found guilty of sodomy

(20:08):
and sentenced to ten years in prison. On the same day that Gaysey was
convicted, his wife, Marilyn,filed for divorce, which was finalized by
the following September. Marilyn took hertwo children and none of them ever spoke
to John Wayne Gaycy again. Itis said that at some point Gaysey's children
would change their surname to further distancethemselves from their father. Gasey would take

(20:30):
advantage of his time while in prison. He would obtain his high school diploma,
partake in the Prison to j Cprogram, and help recruit members,
and he was also promoted to thehead cook in the kitchen within a few
months. I'm down, Gaysey,I'm from Waterloo, Iowa, and you're
a man of fumbathority. Grea Well, I'm first cook in the kit and

(20:56):
I run the morning meal in theafternoon the morne. How long you've been
here? I've been here now ayear in about the week. Why am
I afting along to you? Bybig up here? Well, I hope
to beginning outcome by the mate,well good good. On December twenty fifth,

(21:17):
nineteen sixty nine, John Stanley Gacy, John Wayne's father, would pass
away. This tragic life event wouldshake Gaysey to his core. He would
request prison furlough to attend his father'sfuneral, but this request would be denied.
About six months later, after hisfather's death, John Wayne Gaycy would
be released from prison. Out ofthe ten years sentence he was given,

(21:40):
he wound up serving only eighteen monthsdue to good behavior. He would be
given twelve months probation after his release, and he was ordered back to Chicago,
Illinois, where he would live withhis mother. He would obtain a
job as a short order cook andbegin his new post conviction life. As
the saying goes, a tiger cannot change his stripes, and John Wayne

(22:02):
Gacy was no different. By Februaryof nineteen seventy one, Gasey would sexually
assault another boy. Gasey would pickup the boy from a bus station and
offer to drive him home. Uponarriving at the boy's home, Gasey would
try and force himself on to thechild. Somehow, the boy would escape
and Gasey would be charged. However, the charges would be dropped because the

(22:23):
boy would never show up to court. Due to the fact that there was
no conviction and that the case wasthrown out, the Parole Board of Iowa
never heard about Gaysey's violation. Ifthey had, he would have been placed
back in prison. After this incident, Gasey would buy a home on eighty
two thirteen West Summerdale Avenue, Chicago, Illinois, and have his mother move

(22:47):
in with him. By August ofnineteen seventy one, Gasey would reignite in
old high school romance with a womanby the name of Carol Hoff. The
pair would become engaged in Carol,along with her two young dogs, would
move into Gaysey's home. His motherwould eventually move out before the couple got
married. John and Carroll wed onJuly first, nineteen seventy two. However,

(23:10):
a week before the eye dous Johnwould be arrested again. A young
man by the name of Jackie dewould file a complaint with the police department
stating that Gaysey had been impersonating apolice officer. Gaysey had a fake badge
that he would quickly flash at Jackie. He then forced Jackie into his car
and made him perform oral sex onhim. This case would go in Gaysey's

(23:32):
favor, yet again, the chargeswould be dismissed once the court learned that
Jackie de attempted to extort money fromGaysey in exchange for Jackie to drop the
charges against him. Gasey once againslipped through the cracks of the legal system.
He was a predator, and onlya little bit of digging would have
proven that. But this incident wasn'tthe end of Gaysey's crimes. In fact,

(23:56):
things were about to escalate to awhole new level. For fourteen years
of em frighting, the same battleof all I want is the truth to
be learned that I did not giveit all the crime. Once John and
Carroll got married, Gasey would quithis job as a short order cook and
try his hand at contracting. Hewould start his own construction company called Painting,

(24:19):
Decorating and Maintenance Contractors or pd Mfor short. Like with any small
business, the work Gaysey was gettingwas small, minor repairs here and there,
but not long after the launch ofhis business, Gaysey had employees working
on things like remodels, landscaping,and interior design. Business, as they

(24:40):
say, was booming, but havinga wife and two step daughters wasn't enough
for Gaysey. Having a successful businesswas not enough for John Wayne Gaysey.
In nineteen seventy two, John wouldcommit his first known murder. It was
January second of nineteen seventy two.Timothy mc cooy was around sixteen years old

(25:07):
and had been traveling after visiting friendsin Michigan on a Greyhound bus when he
made a stop in Chicago on hisway back home to Iowa. Gasey spotted
the young man and asked him ifhe wanted to ride. Timothy accepted,
and Gasey would take him all overChicago to see the famous sights. Gasey
would then offer Timothy a place tosleep that night. When the pair arrived

(25:30):
back at Gasey's home, the twowould allegedly engage in sexual activity. It
is not known where Gasey's wife andstepdaughters were at this time, but given
what would occur next, it canbe assumed that they were not in the
home at the time. According toGaysey, when he awoke the next morning,
he saw Timothy standing in the doorwayholding a knife. Gacy, thinking

(25:52):
that Timothy was about to attack him, jumped up and ran at the boy.
Gasey would state that Timothy raised hishands up and accidentally cut Gaysy's arm
during the struggle. At some point, Gasey was able to get Timothy to
drop the knife, and Gasey proceededto grab the boy's head and slam it
against the wall and then kick himwhile he was on the ground. Timothy,

(26:12):
in an attempt to defend himself,would kick at Gaysey, further igniting
his blind rage. Gaycy would thengrab the knife that Timothy had dropped and
stab him multiple times in the chestuntil McCoy died. After he killed Timothy,
Gaysey would later state that he wasdrained of all his energy, but
at the same time, he wassexually thrilled in a way he had never

(26:33):
felt before in his life. Heunderstood in that moment that for him,
death was the ultimate thrill. Gaseywould claim that he killed Timothy McCoy in
self defense. Whether that is trueor not is entirely up for debate.
What we do know is that thereason that Timothy had the knife, was
that he was in the middle ofcooking breakfast for himself and Gaysy, most

(26:56):
likely as a thank you for treatinghim so kindly the US day. When
Gacy entered the kitchen after the stabbing, he noticed that the table had been
set for two and that eggs andbacon were on the counter. Gacy would
take Timothy McCoy's body and bury himin the crawl space beneath his home.
Then eventually he would put a layerof concrete on top of him in the

(27:17):
hopes that this crime would never bediscovered. However, Timothy would just be
the first body to enter the crawlspace. This crawl space would soon turn
into a graveyard. At least todayfound six more bodies under the John Gacy
house in Norwood Park Township near DeskPlains, Illinois. The six bodies bring

(27:38):
the total found under this house andgarage to fifteen, all appearing to have
been teenaged boys and young men,and police digging cautiously with garden tools say
they've now covered only one fourth ofthe space under the house. By nineteen
seventy three, John had many peoplein his employee A large majority of his

(27:59):
employees were young men. Some wereeven teenagers who were just trying to make
money for themselves, most likely forthe first time in their lives. Gaysey
would travel to Florida to inspect aproperty he recently purchased, and on this
trip he would bring along a teenagedemployee with him. Once they were back
at the hotel after traveling, Gayseywould overpower the boy and rape him.

(28:22):
For the remainder of the trip,the youth would not spend time alone with
gay Sy. He went so faras sleeping on the beach to avoid sleeping
in the same room as him.When they returned to Chicago, they briefly
parted ways until one afternoon while Gayseywas doing yard work, the young man
who had been raped drove to hishouse and mercilessly beat up John Wayne Gaysy

(28:42):
until his mother in law stepped inbetween them. Gaysey would tell those who
asked that the reason for this employee'soutburst was due to the fact that Gaysy
had refused to pay him for workhe had done. Gaysey would state that
the work was not good and thatthe young man didn't earn his wage.
According to Gaysey, he didn't commitanother murder until nineteen seventy four. John

(29:04):
would claim that he did not knowthis boy's name or h at the time
of the murder. The details surroundingthis second crime are far and few between.
All Gaysey would stay at a laterdate was that he raped and killed
the young boy, who was somewherebetween sixteen to eighteen years old, and
he strangled him to death. Oncethe boy was dead, he placed his

(29:25):
body in the closet, where hewould remain for a short amount of time.
During the interim before he was buriedin Gaysey's back yard, the boy's
body began to decompose, and whatsome people aren't aware is that when a
person dies, the body begins toleak fluid out of its orifices, which
is exactly what happened in this case. The fluid that expelled from the young
boy's body got on the floor andstained the carpet within the closet. So

(29:49):
from then on, if Gaysy hadto keep a body above ground for some
time, he would stuff rags,socks, and other cloth eggams in the
victim's mouth and in their underwear toprevent the leakage from happening again. By
nineteen seventy five, Gaysey would enterin what he would call his cruising years.
He would state that nineteen seventy fivewas the year in which he really

(30:11):
began hunting for victims. His obsessionwith the thrill of killing had grown to
an insatiable level since the murder ofTimothy McCoy. By this point, he
had already gotten away with killing twopeople, possibly more that we don't even
know about. Given the fact thatGaysey was an arrogant and powerful man,
it is safe to assume that hebelieved that he was invincible. What would

(30:34):
later become an unsettling fact was thatin nineteen seventy five as well, Gasey
would begin dressing up as a clown, a clown in which he named Pogo.
Gasey would join a group called theJolly Jokers, an organization of men
who would dress up as clowns andperform for fundraiser in other events. Gasey
loved playing Pogo. It tapped intohis inner child. However, some of

(30:56):
his colleagues found him to be unsettling, especially the way he would put on
his makeup. He had sharp edgesaround his mouth. It made him look
sinister versus friendly. Nineteen seventy fivewas also the year that Gaysey would tell
his wife, Carol, that theywere no longer going to be intimate with
one another. The pair would havesex on Mother's Day that year, and

(31:18):
Gasey would inform her that it wouldbe the last time. Gaysy was rarely
home to begin with. He wouldtell his wife that he was busy working
and that's why he did not comehome until the early hours of the morning,
when in fact it is more likelythat Gaysey was out cruising. Carol
was aware that her husband was bisexual, and she would find things like porn
and noticed that gasy only surrounded himselfwith very young men quite frequently, so

(31:41):
it was no secret to her asto who he was sharing his nights with.
Nineteen seventy five also brought about hugegrowth in Gaysy's business. He was
working long days, sometimes upwards ofsixteen hours, and hiring more and more
people to carry out his new contracts. Most to the employees who did the
hard labor consisted of high school agedteenagers, with a handful of men in

(32:05):
their early twenties. In May ofnineteen seventy five, Gasey would hire a
fifteen year old boy by the nameof Anthony Antonucci. A few months into
working for Gasey, Anthony would injurehis foot on the job, so the
following day, Gasey visited him athis home. At the time, Anthony
was home by himself. Gasey gaveAnthony alcohol. After some time, Gasey

(32:27):
would overpower Anthony and handcuff his handsbehind his back. Gasey would exit the
room for a moment, and thisgave Anthony enough time to free his one
hand from a loose cuff. WhenGasey re entered the room, Anthony,
who was a member of his highschool's wrestling team, attacked Gasey. Anthony
was able to get the handcuff keysfrom Gacy and then in turn placed Gacy's

(32:49):
hands behind his back and handcuff him. Incredible instincts to have in a horrifying
situation and with an injured foot whileon the ground, Gasey became unhinged.
He screamed threats at Anthony, andthen the threats turned in to please for
him to take the cuffs off ofhim. He calmly stated he would leave
and not come back if Anthony justlet him go. He would even say,

(33:12):
not only are you the only onewho has gotten out of the cuffs,
you got them on me. Eventually, Anthony let Gaysey go, But
let's go back for a second towhat Gasey said to him. Not only
are you the only one who hasgotten out of the cuffs, you got
them on me, the only one, meaning that there had been others before

(33:34):
him. At this point in thetimeline, Gaysey has only allegedly killed two
people, further propelling the idea thatthere is possibly more victims out there that
we just don't know about. OnJuly twenty first, nineteen seventy five,
a week or so after Gaysey attemptedto harm Anthony, seventeen year old John
Bukovitch would disappear. Bukovitch was nothappy with Gaysey, him, along with

(33:57):
two friends, would confront Gaysey overthe fact that he had not paid him
his earnings for going on two weeks. John threatened to go to the authorities
and tell them about the incident.He would even state that he would inform
them of the fact that no taxeswere being deducted from their pay. John
took his job seriously because he lovedputting what he earned into his car.
He loved to raise and work onhis vehicle, and at seventeen years old,

(34:21):
those parts don't come cheap. UnderGasey's employ John made good money,
but Gaysy was known for halting paymentsto some of his employees as to keep
more money for himself. The factthat John threatened Gaysy sent him into a
blind rage. After arguing for abit longer, John and his friends left.
They weren't getting anywhere with Gaysey andthere was no point in staying.

(34:43):
The following day, Gaysy invited Johnover to his home. At this time,
Gaysey's wife, Carol, and histwo step daughters were in Arkansas,
so the pair were in Gaysy's homeall alone. Gaysy would present John with
a pair of handcuffs and tell himhe knew a trick. This would later
be dubbed the Infamous handcuff Trick.It was very simple. Gasey would first

(35:06):
place the handcuffs on his own wristsand then spin around. By the time
he was facing his audience again,the handcuffs would be dangling off one of
his wrists. Those who saw thetrick would ask how did he do that,
to which Gasey would reply, I'llshow you the same scenario is most
likely what occurred with John. Gaseywas able to place the handcuffs on the

(35:28):
young boy and then inevitably kill him. It's hard to imagine what John and
Gaysie's subsequent victims would endure after theyrealized they were trapped. Once Gasey placed
the handcuffs on his victims, hewould state the trick is you have to
have the key. After this,Gasey would mercilessly torture, rape, and
kill his captive, sometimes in slowand painful ways. Gasey would use a

(35:52):
rope to typically strangle his victims.He specifically would use a tourniquet knot,
wherein he would tie a rope aroundthe young man's neck, place one knot,
then tie another knot on top ofthe first one. Then he would
slip a thin piece of wood inbetween the knots and turn. The more
you turn the tiger the rope becomes, inevitably cutting off the person's air supply

(36:14):
and killing them. John's parents wouldinform the police that their son was missing
and implored them to check out Gaysy. Due to the fact that John's friends
informed his parents that him and Gayseyhad gotten into a terrible fight before he
went missing, but nothing ever cameof this request. John's father, Marco

(36:36):
would reach out to Gaysey himself,and Gaysey would state that he had no
idea what happened to John. Hewould admit that John had come to his
home and an argument ensued, butonce he left, that's where his knowledge
of John's whereabouts ceased. He wouldalso tell Marco that the police had never
spoken to him about John's disappearance either. John's parents would ask the police dozens

(36:58):
of times to keep looking at gayCy, but they wouldn't. Not long
after John's disappearance, Gaysey and hissecond wife would file for divorce. The
marriage at this point was non existent, they spent no time together, and
they had not been intimate for atleast a year. Carol and her daughters
would remain in the house for ashort time, but eventually the three left

(37:20):
eighty two thirteen West Summerdale Ave inearly nineteen seventy six, leaving Gaycy to
have the entire house to do whateverhe pleased. Hailed a glorious streaming service
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(38:07):
www dot acorn dot tv or downloadthe Acorn TV app on your favorite device.
Get an extended thirty day free trialwith Code true Crime. In April
of nineteen seventy six, Gasey wouldmurder Darryl Sampson. The following month,

(38:27):
on May fourteenth, Gasey would murdertwo young men On the same day,
Randall Reffitt was last seen walking homefrom school. After that, he disappeared
into thin air. According to reports, Randall died from asphyxiation due to a
rag being placed into his mouth asa gag. Within a few hours of
killing Randall, Gasey would also murderSamuel Stapleton. He would referred to knights

(38:51):
that he killed more than one personas a double Over the course of the
summer of nineteen seventy six, Gaseywould murder Michael Bonnen, William Harold,
James Hackins's son, and Rick Johnston. Each young man was between the ages
of fourteen to eighteen years old atthe time of their deaths. Within this
group of victims is also an unidentifiedmale who was murdered around the same time.

(39:14):
Currently, his name is still unknown. Towards the end of August of
nineteen seventy six, Gaysey would inviteone of his employees to move in with
him. Eighteen year old David Cramhad spent time in the army and knew
how to defend himself. Soon afterhe moved into Gaysey's home, he would
be conned into putting on those infamoushandcuffs. The pair had been drinking,

(39:36):
and Gaysy used his charm and magictrick spiel to fool the young man.
While he had him handcuffed, Gaseywould inform Cram of his intentions of raping
him. David was somehow able toescape the handcuffs and hit Gaysey in the
face, knocking him to the floor. Despite this whole thing. David still
lived with Gaysy for another month.Perhaps he thought it was just a sick

(39:59):
joke gone raw. Maybe they haddrank just a little bit too much and
Gaysey hadn't meant what he said,or whatever. Lie. David told himself
to not accept that Gaysey, aman who employed him and gave him a
roof over his head, wasn't ahorrible man. However, Gasey would attempt
to attack David again. He wouldlet himself into David's bedroom and attempt to

(40:22):
rape him. Gaysey, while tryingto overpower David, would say, Dave,
you really don't know who I am. Maybe it would be good for
you to give me what I want. David was able to fight Gaysey off
to the point where he would giveup and leave the bedroom. After this
encounter, David Craham would leave Gaysey'shome and quit PDM Contractors. He would

(40:44):
work for him every once in awhile, but cut ties as a full
time employee. Not long after DavidCraham left the Gaysy household, another individual
by the name of Michael Rossy wouldmove in. In some reports, it
states that Michael ross and David Grahamknew what Gaysey was. In fact,
these reports would also state that theywere accomplices in some of the rapes,

(41:05):
tortures, and murders. Not manypeople escaped the grasp of John Wayne Gaycy.
One who did recalled that there weretwo men in the room when he
was being raped and tortured. Butwe will touch on that theory in a
little bit. Some people believe thatthe notion that John Wayne Gaycy had an
accomplice is outlandish. Why would anyonego along with such a thing? More

(41:27):
importantly, why would a person nottell anyone what he was up to?
Perhaps he will think back to episodeeight of The Apex and the Abyss.
In this episode, we covered thestory of Dean Quarrel, a man in
Texas, along with two male accomplices, Elmer Wayne Henley Junior and David Owen
Brooks, would kidnap, torture,rape, and murder at least twenty eight

(41:49):
young men and boys. So isit really that far off that this same
situation could have happened in a differenttime and state. It should also be
knowed that some of the victims wereallegedly kidnapped when n Gasey was working or
out of town. Now, thesefacts could be misconstrued a false memory,
or that Gaysy himself was lying abouthis whereabouts, or it could be proof
that he had helped just like DeanCoral did. The more you compare the

(42:13):
two to one another, the moreit appears that they are cut from the
same cloth. Only you threatened mewith that he had had guns in the
house, and that if he hadto if I went to the police or
told anyone about his advances upon me, that I would be endangered with that,

(42:39):
and that he wanted me to realizehow easy it would have been for
him to kill me right then andthere. Towards the end of the summer
in nineteen seventy six to March ofnineteen seventy eight, John Wyn Gasey would
kill well over a dozen young menand boys. These victims were all buried

(43:00):
in Gaysey's crawl space. There wereso many bodies down there that he began
stacking them within the graves. Now, if you've ever seen a photo of
John Wayne Gaysey, and you've seenthe picture of his crawl space, it's
kind of a tight fit. Itwould be difficult for him to comfortably maneuver
around down there. So after acertain point, he would get his young

(43:21):
employees to dig holes in there.He would tell them exactly where to dig
and how deep. He made surethey stayed within a certain frame so they
would not come across other bodies.The excuse he would give them as to
why they were digging was that heneeded more storage space, which horrifically wasn't
a lie. He just didn't tellthem what he was storing down there.

(43:44):
In nineteen seventy seven, Gasey wouldkidnap a man by the name of Robert
Donnelly. He would force nineteen yearold Robert into his car at gunpoint.
Gasey would take Robert back to hishome and for hours he would torture and
rape the young man, beat himmercilessly, and would dunk his head into
a bathtub filled with water over andover again. Robert begged Gaysy to just

(44:08):
kill him. The pain he wasexperiencing was unbearable and he couldn't take it
anymore, but Gaysey wouldn't. Oncehe was done with Robert, he would
drop him off near where Robert worked, and then Gasy simply drove away.
Robert immediately contacted the police and toldthem what happened. When Gaysey was questioned,

(44:30):
he told the authorities that their interactionhad been consensual. It is not
clear why he left Robert alive,but it would not be the last time
Gaysey did this. The beginning ofthe end started in March of nineteen seventy
eight for John Wayne Gaysy. Hewould kidnap a twenty six year old man
by the name of Jeffrey Rignal.Jeffrey would get into Gaysey's car and Gaysey

(44:51):
immediately attacked him. He would placea chloroform soaked rag over Jeffrey's nose and
mouth until he fell unconscious. WhatJeffrey he would endure over the course of
the next few hours is unimaginable.Gasey would tie Rignal on something he would
call the rack. This would beanother parallel to Deane Quarrel. Like him,
this rack was essentially a torture device. Gasey would suspend the victim in

(45:15):
the air by chains. Their armswould be placed through holes in wood boards,
allowing them to be hoisted in theair under their armpits. It is
suspected that Gaysey used this instrument oftorture on a majority of his victims,
Gaysey would severely abuse Jeffrey. Notonly did he brutally rape him and scream
you love it every time he sexuallyassaulted him, but he would flog him

(45:37):
with a whip, burn him withcandles, and insert sex toys into his
orifices. During the entire ordeal,Jeffrey Wrignal would lose consciousness, either due
to the pain or because Gaysey wouldcorreform him over and over again. Once
he was done, Gasey would takeJeffrey and drop him off at Lincoln Park.
This park was located about thirty minutesfrom Gaysey's home Summerdale Avenue. When

(46:01):
Rignal woke up, he was disorientedand in unbelievable pain, but he was
able to muster up enough strength towalk to his girlfriend's house. She would
take him to the hospital and hewould stay there to recover for almost a
week. While there, he wouldreport his attack to the police. He
told them what Gaysey had done tohim and that there was another man in

(46:22):
the room with them that he didnot know, partaking in the abuse.
The police were hesitant to believe Jeffrey'sstory for some reason, so Rignal would
stake out the location he believed hisassault happened. Eventually, Riggnal would find
eighty two thirteen Summerdale av and pointthe police in the direction of Gaysey John

(46:43):
Wayn. Gaysey was arrested and wasset to stay in trial for the battery
of Jeffrey Rignal. However, Gayseywould not stay in jail while he awaited
trial. On December eleventh, nineteenseventy eight, Gaysey would be in Desplaine's
pharmacy to speak to the owner ofout of contract the pair were working out
a clerk in the pharmacy. Fifteenyear old Robert Pist would overhear that Gaysy

(47:07):
hired boys his age and that hepaid five dollars an hour, which seemed
like a lot compared to the twofifty an hour Robert currently made working at
the pharmacy. When Gasey left,Robert would tell his mother that he was
going to go after him to talkabout a job, but he wouldn't give
her the name of who he wasspeaking to. He told her he wouldn't

(47:28):
be long, but this was thelast time Robert Pist would be seen alive.
After some time, when Robert didnot return, his family would file
a report with the police department,stating that he was missing. After some
investigation, the police were able tofind out that Gaysey was allegedly the last
known person to speak with Robert Pist. The police would go to Gasey's home

(47:50):
to see what he knew and statedthat he offered to give a job to
Robert Pist, but may have spokento him while he was in the store
Gaysey was playing. The police askedhim to make an official statement, which
he agreed to. He simply askedif he could come in later to do
so. He was busy at themoment. The police had no problem with
this and they left Gaysy's home.At about three am the following morning,

(48:15):
John Wayne Gaysy would walk into thepolice station to issue his official statement on
Robert Pist. He was covered indirt and mud. He claimed he was
in a car accident to explain hisappearance. However, it is safe to
assume that he spent the evening disposingof Robert Pist. The police were finally
highly suspicious of Gaysey, especially afterwhat they saw was on his record and

(48:37):
the fact that he had a pendingcase of baggery. They believed that he
knew more When it came to RobertPist's disappearance. What they didn't realize is
that they were about to uncover ahorror that would be heard around the world.
The police would issue a sir towarrant of Gaysey's residence. They would

(48:57):
find many suspicious items within his home, like driver's license that didn't belong to
him, a class ring from anineteen seventy five class from a local school,
clothes that were far too small forGaysy to fit into, and a
slew of other items that just didn'tseem to fit. The most important piece
of evidence they would find in Gaysy'shome would be a receipt in his kitchen
from the pharmacy that Robert Pist workedat. This receipt was placed in Robert's

(49:22):
jacket by a girl he worked with. She had borrowed the outerwaar briefly before
Robert put it back on to followGaysty out of the pharmacy. During this
search of his home, the policewould also confiscate one of Gaysy's cars,
specifically his Oldsmobile, and officials thenassigned men to keep an eye on him
for twenty four hours a day.If you were Gaysy and had committed such

(49:45):
horrific crimes, you would think thathe would be shaking in his boots,
but he wasn't. Like previously stated, after the first two murders, Gaysy's
arrogance seemed to overtake him, andit seems like he truly thought that he
would never be caught. He wouldtoy with the surveillance teams, speed through
red lights as they were tailing him, accost them from afar, and even

(50:05):
on some instances, offered to cookthem breakfasts. Suffice it to say that
those watching Gaysey all day long notedthat he was an odd fellow to say
the very least. A particular commentseemed to stick with a team of investigators
who took Gacy up on his offerof a meal. One day. While
they were eating, Gasey would justsimply state, you know, clowns,
they can get away with murder.But soon after the investigation began, Michael

(50:30):
Rossy, one of the young menwho had lived with Gaysey and worked for
him, informed police that two youngmen who had worked with Gaysey had disappeared
too. They would eventually interview DavidKraham as well, and he would tell
them about how Gaysey tried to rapehim multiple times. Both boys would be
interviewed multiple times, and as theywere starting to realize that Gaysey had connections

(50:52):
to multiple disappearances, they began askingthe pair who knew Gaycey tougher questions.
The interview would escalate to the pointwhere invest the Giggers would ask them if
Gaysy had killed anybody, where wouldhe hide their body, to which they
both would reply the crawl space.The police were finally closing in and the
air of arrogance that Gaysy once hadwas starting to diminish. It appeared as

(51:16):
though that he wasn't sleeping. Hebegan to look on kempt and his friendly
demeanor was almost non existent. Policewould return to Gaysy's home to search it
again after they confirmed that the receiptthey had in evidence had been on Robert
Pie the day he went missing,and they also wanted to look for more
evidence when they realized that the classring traced back to a missing boy by

(51:38):
the name of John Sizig. Currently, all the information and evidence they had
was circumstantial. They needed more.During this search, they noticed something different,
a horrible smell of decay, wascoming from the heating vents in the
house, something that wasn't picked upon as strongly as before. During the

(51:58):
first search, there was a mile, but Gaysy gave multiple excuses, like
it was the drain, the trashor dog waste that had dried up on
the floor. But this time theodor was stronger and more prevalent. The
smell of death is incomparable, andthe police knew something was seriously wrong.
However, they didn't check the crawlspace that night. It's not clear why,

(52:21):
but they would eventually just leave.Search for victims of John Wayne Gaysey
may be shifted to the basement ofthis building on Chicago's near north Side.
A carpenter has told authorities that whenGaysey's contracting company remodeled the basement in nineteen
seventy six, it had a badsmell, which Gaysey blamed on dead rats.

(52:42):
The subcontractor also claimed that Gasey workedat night in the basement pouring concrete.
So far, the twenty eight bodiesattributed to Gaysey were found exactly where
Gasey told authorities to look, inthe crawl space of his suburban home,
or in a nearby river. Therehas been no mention till now of any
other location. On December twenty second, nineteen seventy eight, while already in

(53:06):
police custody, John WAYN Gaysey wouldconfess to murder to the authorities. He
told them he started back in nineteenseventy two and was not able to stop.
He claimed that the young men andboys in which he murdered were either
runaways or sex workers, which wasn'ttrue. Yes, some of them may
have been runaways, but on thewhole he was acquainted with the young men,

(53:29):
or if he wasn't, he wouldlure them into his car or home.
He would repeat the same information tothe police as he did to the
lawyers. He told them how hekilled them and what he did to his
victims. He even spoke of futureplans of killing. He knew he was
running out of space, so hewas considering doing some construction at his home
to have more room to dispose ofthe corpses. He had recently run out

(53:52):
of room and began dumping the bodiesby the river. Gasey would take the
police back to his house and showthem where the body were buried. Most
of the bodies were under the crawlspace, but there was one under his
garage and another bird by his barbecuepit. Gacy would even draw a sketch
of his crawl space so investigators knewwhere to dig. He would place stick

(54:13):
figures with in circles to show whichones were graves and how many people were
in the one spot. Over thecourse of the investigation, thirty three bodies
would be recovered. Twenty nine victimswere found within Gacy's home, and the
other four were thrown in or aroundthe river of South Chicago. What kind
of man was mister Gaycy? Kindof a man? How would you characterize

(54:37):
him? Oh? I don't knowI characterize I thought he was a pretty
fine person, very good, veryor I very very amiable. I liked
them even I liked them. Ifeel sorry for him that this has happened,
But he's been a wonderful person,a very generous person to us.
Now, what kind of a whatkind of a neighbor? Was he?
Very good neighbor. If it wasa case that I needed a borrow a

(55:00):
tool from the man, because hehad many good tools, he was more
than willing to let me have anythingI wanted anything. Now, of course,
we know that the problem here isthe story of these bizarre occurrences murders
right next door to your home.Did you ever hear anything that would indicate
to you that there was foul playgoing on over there? Never a sound
another sound, never not even thoughyou know, like they've asked about screaming

(55:22):
or anything. Never a sound outof that house. It's always been a
quiet house. Never any noise oranything, no other than maybe doing some
construction work at night outside of littleloudness that way, sawing and things like
that. But I attributed that tohis work. We ask you something else
he said about he seemed to haveodd hours. Would you explain to me

(55:43):
what kinds of things you heard goingon at night or whatever? Well,
it would be basically loading his vehicles. His trucks were coming constantly, and
at all hours at a night theywould come, and that might be strange,
but I attributed that to work.His remindling. Sometimes they'd load a
truck up at one two in themore and that off it would go.
I never knew where it went to. But the lads were gotten a truck

(56:04):
and took it away, or theywould come back, but with material.
These were young men, for theywere always young men that they had working
for him. Now, did youever have any indication that there was any
kind of foul play going on?He was supposedly homosexual. Was there any
indication of that? No, therenever was anything. I only had my
own suspicions of why he was alwayssurrounded by some of the young people,

(56:25):
always young males, never older persons, Always young people. Did you ever
talk to him about this late nightactivity, that kind of thing only at
night if they got too carried awayto get a little too noisy. I've
gotten up at one thirty and twoin the morning and when he was sawing
out there, and I would askhim to see, said he's sorry,
yet he said, I'll stop rightaway, you know, because I had

(56:46):
to get up for work the nextday. I said, John, that's
annoying to have you sawing what apower saw in a garage at one two
in the morning, and he'd donethat out of a number of occasions.
How do you feel now thinking backon those sence that noise late at night,
and then knowing what you know nowabout these murders. Well, now
I kind of see some of thestuff that was going on. It probably

(57:09):
worth something pertaining to what he wasdoing a number of times he'd come home
with his car now at night,at hours, at odd hours of the
night. He had some big oldstreet lamp that he didn't stalled up in
front, and that was quite right. He'd go in the house, shut
the light off, and then hewent to his oles and he seemed to
be struggling. I'd never seen what, but he'd be at the door open
for fifteen minutes. I thought,well, what the hell did he just

(57:30):
take the thing in and that wasit. But he'd be there and finally
I'd give up watching and going thehouse and the door was closed. But
you know, it's hard to tellwhat he was struggling with, but he
seemed to have a problem get Thenlater on the night would come on on
the outside, and then it wouldbe two or three in the morning,
or four in the morning, he'dgo back out to jump in the card
off he'd go again. Those werethe hours that he carried down. But

(57:53):
I thought there was business, butit probably worth some of this, would
plane, maybe bringing some of theseyoung people. Then you think he could
have been carrying bodies in and outthere. A few times the trunk was
open, you know, he couldswing in because of circular driveway to his
house, and that also at thelight would it was always his habit.
He swamped the light off, switchedthe light off that had on the outside,

(58:15):
and a little while the trunk wouldopen, and it was the same
thing. He was in there diggingaround. What he was removing I never
seen. But then eventually the trunkwould get closed and he'd close it,
go in the house to retire afterthat, or he'd take off. He'd
also his lights round all hours ofthe night or all night long and beyond.
Was there a lot of noise inthe house with other people anything like

(58:36):
oh no, no, no.I had a habit of he had hadn't
like his friends. And I hada younger son that kind of associated with
some of his lads. And onetime I got to return to the daughter
that woke up that she says,Ronnie's got a friend in the house,
and it was one of his employees. And I'd get a hold of Ronnie,

(58:57):
take that guy and get him outof here. At three o'clock in
the morning. You're not gonna bringno friend into the house. I put
them both out. My son said, if he goes igoises, then you
go to with him. They spendthe night in the house. Then I
went there the following night and Itold john I caught this one kid,
as if I ever catch you inthe house, and I'll break your neck
for you, because I just don'tlike him in there. You know,
not three in the morning and Johnson'syou stay out of Eddie's house. Even
if Ronnie calls you in there.You have no business in there. Because

(59:20):
I've had a number of articles vanishedin the house. We have no idea
where they went. I lost athousand dollar diamond ring. I got no
idea where world. It could havebeen some of his weird friends that Brown
would bring in there. It waspretty scar scrubby and scurvey as far as
I was. The fool was aboveground above ground pool and he sold the
thing because he had no use forthe pool, and some other person brought

(59:42):
it and there never was anything.There was a little differension anybody. He
just left a little off with dirtand it was grass, but not at
that time. This was right afterhe had moved A year or so after
that he moved them there. Butif they're to do any hunting, my
best bedst that he should be.They should look under the grounds, for
this was laid on the lawn.Hardly any grou I have a leather than
the roughness that was in there,but was on the pool in this area.
He took that and threw that inthe bank there. But there he

(01:00:05):
had the habit of poking around inthe evening too. Whether by where the
garages, I don't need that now, but that was pretty quick, and
I'm suspicious also where he has amajor barbecue there that I came home that
one day and he had a hellof a hole dog in there. Yeah,
and there that was before pointing concrete, and I never did see that.

(01:00:37):
It took quite a bit of timeto id all the bodies that the
investigators found. By the time thetrial started, they had only identified twenty
two. Gasey's trial would begin onFebruary sixth, nineteen eighty. The people
of Chicago and the world were stillin a state of shock about what they
found within his home. John WAYN. Gasey was a successful businessman, helpful

(01:01:00):
neighbor, and an entertaining clown forkids. But now he was a vile
murderer, a monster in the eyesof those who knew him. And once
respected him. Gasey would spend sometime leading up to his trial trying to
convince the world that he was insane. He also tried to prove that he
had multiple personalities. Gasey would bedeemed sane and fit to stand trial,

(01:01:22):
but defense doctors would diagnose him withparanoid schizophrenia with a multiple personality disorder.
However, the prosecuting doctors refuted theseclaims. Over the course of the trial,
many people would take the stand againstGaysey. Michael Rossy would speak about
digging the trenches in the crawl spaceand how he was not allowed to deviate

(01:01:44):
from the spot in which he wasinstructed to. Eventually, Gasey would put
Rossi in charge of overseeing others diggingin his crawl space. Gasey did have
a busy schedule, so he woulddelegate such work to his hired hands.
No one questioned why he wanted theseholes dug to such particular specifications. They
trusted Gaysey. They had no ideathat they were digging graves. Donald Vorhees

(01:02:07):
would also take the stand to speakabout Gaysy and the assault he experienced.
This was not an easy task forDonald, and after a certain point it
became too much to deal with,and he would ask to take a step
down from the stand. Jeffrey Rignalwould also testify and speak about the horrific
night that he was taken by Gaysey. Reliving it was so difficult for jeff

(01:02:30):
that he actually became sick on thestand. Gaysey's behavior in the courtroom was
despicable. If a surviving victim struggledto speak, he would chuckle at them.
Imagine how unnerving it would be tobe one of Gaysey's victims in that
moment. They know how important theirtestimony is, but at the same time,
the situation in and of itself isterrifying. This man in front of

(01:02:53):
them tortured them, abused them,and took pieces of them away. To
see him laughing at their own coblenessmust have been a jarring experience. After
hearing hours of testimony over the courseof five weeks, it was time for
the jury to come to a verdict. They deliberated Gaysey's feet for less than
two hours. When they returned,they informed the judge that they had found

(01:03:15):
Gaysy guilty of thirty three counts ofmurder. Later, they would sentence Gaysy
to death for his crimes. ProsecutorTerry Sullivan called Gaysey's insanity defense hogwash.
In his confession, Gaysey admitted killingthe young men after having sex with him,
then varying most of the bodies underhis house. The prosecutor called Gaysy

(01:03:37):
a vile, evil, diabolical murdererwho must be held responsible for his acts.
Gaysy chuckled. The photos of thetwenty two identified victims were displayed,
Murder, Sullivan said as he pointedto each one murder. Relatives of the
victims wept. Sullivan told a jurythat justice implores them to find Gaysy guilty

(01:03:57):
of murder in the worst degree.Once in prison, Gasey would recant his
previous confession to the murders. Hesaid he had knowledge about certain ones,
but a majority of the bodies foundwithin his own crawl space were not put
there by him. He would evendo a prison interview stating his innocence.

(01:04:18):
People who want to know the truthand the honesty of it, if they
want to be convinced their brainwashed intowhat they believe, then find and go
ahead and kill me. But vengeancehis mind. Say it's the Lord because
you will have executed somebody that didn'tcommit the crime. When they paint the
image that I was this monster whowho picked up like these altar boys along

(01:04:40):
the street and swatted him like flive, I said, this is ludicrous.
I've taken five and a half hours, three and a half hours of
truth Sarah and sodium amato, themaximum at that I could have. It
shows that I have no knowledge ofthe crime whatsoever, never have had.
There is no proof anywhere that heever took truth sarahm Now it's not only

(01:05:00):
a matter of physical evidence, it'sa character issue as well. Many times
during our interview he tried to portrayhimself as a quick guy, an ethical,
hard working family man. Here's howhe describes himself as a father,
loving and caring. I've always lookedafter my children even now. What kind
of values you remember imparting to them? The kind of stick? Will you

(01:05:24):
strict with them too? No?Not as strict as No. A lot
of things that my dad did Irefused to do because I don't see.
I don't believe in hitting hitting children. I don't believe in in spoiling a
child either. My values are suchthat if we've give enough love to a
child who's a murdering thirty three,and you say you didn't believe in hitting.

(01:05:47):
I mean, well, anybody thatknows you see it. First of
all, you're you're basing this garbageon what you've heard of me. What
happened to Rogue, What was happenedin the book of his case or was
he picked up? How did heget to the house, and what happened
to him. I don't want togo in. I don't want to go
into the other the five that Iknow about, just take it that I

(01:06:11):
did. Buckervige is not one thatI killed, so I don't know nothing
about him. A little bit thatI know about him is that he was
an employee of my s. Whenyou when you look about this, this
recall business and and I'm not scurbut I know you're not. Waits is
not one that you killed, whichsuggests that me, Oh fact, were
others that you did kill. AndI okay, I'm sorry if I led

(01:06:33):
you to believe no strike at them, that is wrong. Charge me with
complicity in two of the murders,just two. That's all I know about.
In regards to going out and thegradge. Yes, I know,
I went to the house and yes, I know. I walked in the
gridge and they asked me where thelast section of concrete was bored. Okay,

(01:06:54):
I said, there's the last sectionwhere the last section of concrete was
bored. Okay. They are theones that took the or camapaign and said
here put a mark there. SoI put an eg there. So the
paint was not to identify the placeof burial. No, despite his appeals
in shouting at the rooftops that hewas an innocent man, John Wayne Gacy
was executed in the early morning hoursof May ninth, nineteen ninety four.

(01:07:18):
For his last meal, he atea bucket of Kentucky fried chicken, French
fries, fried shrimp, strawberries,and a diet coke. Gasy's execution did
not go down smoothly. Typically,the lethal injection takes about seven minutes to
work. At least that's the average. Due to some issues, it took

(01:07:39):
John Wayne Gacy eighteen minutes to die, a most likely very painful death.
It is said that no death sentenceis painless. It just appears that Gaysy's
was a little bit more than usual. Some reports state that his final words
were kiss my ass. However,per an interview outside the prison where the
lethal e action was administered, thiswas not the case. But believe what

(01:08:03):
you want, didn't You couldn't hearhis last statement, though we were told
to be something along lines of kissmy ass. So, actually, Nick
Howel, did you see the Departmentof Corrections spokesman. No, they were
not. They were not. Healluded to, basically as I had explained

(01:08:27):
to you earlier, that killing himwould not bring back the victors. John
Wayne Gacy brutally tortured, raped,and killed thirty three young men and boys.
It is important not to forget whothey were. We currently only have
twenty seven out of thirty three names. Timothy McCoy, John Bukovich, Darryl

(01:08:53):
Sampson, Randall Reffitt, Samuel Stapleton, Michael Bonnen, Wiam Carroll, James
Hackinson, Rick Johnson, Kenneth Parker, Michael Marino, William Bundy, Gregory
Godzick, John Siazac, John Prestige, Matthew Bowman, Robert Gilroy, John

(01:09:18):
Maorory Russell Nelson, Robert Winch,Tommy Bolan, David Talsma, William Kindred,
Timothy O'Rourke Frank Landingen, James Mazara, and Robert Peist. There are
six more known victims that were locatedin Gasey's home. Thanks to forensic science,

(01:09:42):
officials were able to determine a roundabout time and age for these victims.
Due to the fact that they haveno names, they were assigned a
number. Body number five was ayoung man approximately twenty two to thirty two
years old and was killed somewhere betweennineteen seventy six in March of nine teen
seventy seven. Body number ten wasa young man between the ages of seventeen

(01:10:04):
to twenty one years old and wasmurdered between March to July of nineteen seventy
seven. Body number thirteen was amail between the ages of eighteen to twenty
two and was most likely killed betweenAugust to October of nineteen seventy six.
Body twenty one was a mail betweenthe ages of fifteen to twenty four.

(01:10:27):
Officials determined that he was killed somewherebetween August and October of nineteen seventy six.
Body number twenty six was a youngman between the ages of twenty three
to thirty years old. He wasmurdered between June and August of nineteen seventy
six. Lastly, body number twentyeight was a young man between the ages
of fourteen to eighteen, and itwas determined that he was killed in January

(01:10:48):
of nineteen seventy four. John WayneGacy may have had more victims. In
fact, it seemed more than likelythat he did. Hopefully, with the
constant advancements in DNA and forensic technology, we can give his remaining victims their
identities back, and the families ofthose who still have no answers as to
what happened to their loved one canfinally get closure. Have you given some

(01:11:12):
thought to what you might want tosay your last words? You shall know
the truth, and truth shall setyou free. I will be at peace,
But in the end, the families, the families will have not gotten
justice. It may take away someof the pain that you're executing me,
but you will not have served thosefamilies properly. Thank you for listening to

(01:11:35):
this episode of the Apex and theAbyss. If you would like to reach
out, you can find me onTwitter, Instagram, and Facebook. You
can also submit episode requests to Apexand Abyss at gmail dot com. If
you would like to support the show. You can do that in many ways.
You can give the show a fivestar rating and a review on iTunes.

(01:11:56):
You can head on over to Patreonto become a monthly donor as little
as one dollar a month. Youcan buy show merchandise on tepublic dot com,
or you can submit a one timedonation at apex and abyss dot com.
All the links will be posted inthe show notes. Have a great
week everyone, until next time.I'm the brother of John Mallory and we

(01:12:30):
were there were about twenty three ofthe family members of the victims that we
were a little bit amazed. Thereason we came over here was several of
us had asked to be witnesses tothe execution because we just felt it was
something we needed to experience to bea piece with the whole situation. We

(01:12:55):
were giving a runaround and told thatthere were going to be about eighteen people
in it the execution. Then wewere in a small room in the basement
of one of the buildings here watchingyour newscasts on about a nine inch television.

(01:13:16):
We weren't it all notified what wasgoing on throughout the whole episode,
and we were all a little bitdistraught about that, and then we had
heard through your broadcasts after the executionwas completed that there were approximately forty to
forty five people in witnessing the execution. And the whole thing that we've been

(01:13:41):
here about is to try and stressvictims rights in the families of the victims,
and we feel that one of ourrights were stripped by not allowing us
to be there at the end,not to be morbid or anything, it
was just something that was matter ofclosure for us and our families. Veto

(01:14:04):
has been through quite a bit tryingto get to witness the execution as I
have. I mean, this hasbeen fourteen years in the making where it's
a constant reminder when we see misterGaycy on the news. My mother has
been very cooperative with all of you, and I'm just glad that finally a

(01:14:32):
little justice was done in this matter. That's all I have to say. Four four