The Atheist Experience 29.19 with Forrest Valkai and Godless Engineer 2025-05-11

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Richard Feinman once said, I would rather have questions that
can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned. There's
lots of stuff that we don't know about the universe.
Even the things that we do know, like the Big
Bang and the age of the Earth and evolution.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
We don't know everything about.

Speaker 1 (00:18):
And we're constantly reminded of this by religious apologists who
point to anything that science can't answer yet as an
everlasting mystery that proves the existence of God, and everything
that science has answered as fine tune complexity that also
somehow proves the existence of God. And of course, when

(00:38):
I say God, I mean they're preferred God from their
preferred interpretation of their preferred translation of their preferred version
of their preferred Holy Book. But while we're all able
to agree that science has plenty of questions to answer
because it is built upon the idea of questioning things,
try questioning that God, and suddenly skeptics are labeled as disrespectful, arrogant,

(01:03):
or even dangerous. The very same people who consider their
Google searches to be enough to dismiss the expert opinions
of the world's most brilliant minds scoff and scowl at
any reasoned attempt to question the unassailable wisdom of a
God who can't even foresee his own failure with the

(01:26):
power of omniscience. Many of the people who call into
our shows have built their entire identities on a doctrine
that they have never critically examined. But if your God
can't stand up to criticism, then why does it deserve
the title of God? If simply questioning whether God is good,

(01:47):
whether God is wise, or whether God even exists in
the first place offends you, then maybe it's not the
questions that are the problem. Maybe it's the fragile answers
you've been clinging to. But if you think that you
have better answers than the vapid excuses that we hear
on this show every single week, and call in because

(02:08):
the show starts right now, Welcome one and all to
the atheist experience. I am joined today by the godless
engineer John. How you doing, man, I'm doing pretty good.

Speaker 3 (02:25):
You know.

Speaker 4 (02:25):
I've just got back from actually a national park like
trip where I spent two weeks going around to all
the national parks in Utah, and then we went to
the Grand Canyon, and we went to other places like
in Nevada, Death Valley. Death Valley was pretty cool. So yeah,

(02:46):
it was awesome.

Speaker 5 (02:48):
Nice.

Speaker 2 (02:48):
I love that I am doing that same.

Speaker 6 (02:53):
I'm not.

Speaker 1 (02:53):
I've been home, but I'm about to leave on a
trip to Borneo in the middle of next week, and dude,
I am so unbelievably stressed trying to get everything in
order before being gone for a month of giving tours
on the other side of the world. It is madness.
But on the bus side. Right now, we got a
great show for you guys. A couple of quick things

(03:16):
before we get started. The first thing is I have
to remind everybody that this is the Atheist Experience, which
is a product of the Atheist Community of Austin, which
is a five o' one c three nonprofit organization dedicated
to the promotion of atheism, critical thinking, secular humanism, and
the separation of religion and government. And because we are
a nonprofit organization here at the ACA, I am also
compelled to remind everyone. And what I mean by that

(03:39):
is I'm repelled to remind myself that, as I was
just reminded before the show starts by the showrunners that
because this is a five to' one C three. We
cannot specifically condone or endorse any political position or person.
We cannot tell you who we think you should should

(04:00):
vote for or should not vote for, or what bills
you should or should not be supporting. We can support
ideas and ideals, but we cannot support specific people or
rally against specific people. That is the nature of being
a nonprofit organization. So it's very important that I remind

(04:21):
everybody that I am not allowed to share any specific
political opinions about any specific politicians or things that you
should be I cannot even encourage you to vote. I
just have to remind you all that that is what
my limitations are in the show, and that's not the
fault of the ACA. That is the nature of being

(04:43):
a nonprofit organization, which they are, and they do incredible work,
and I'm proud to support them with a show that
I do here. So just want to throw that out
there for everybody who is curious about the tone that
I may take on the show.

Speaker 2 (04:59):
If and topics come up, I may be more deflective.

Speaker 1 (05:02):
That's why, you know, I don't want to annoy anything
that I'm apathetic here with that we've got a great
show for everybody today. The number they're on the bottom
of the screen five one two nine four two or
I believe. There's also a link that you can click
in the description that you can call in over them internets.
If you don't want to use up your data, these

(05:26):
are ways you can contact us. John and I are
real live atheists. They caught us, they ensnared us, and
they forced us to do this show so that we
can tell theists and creationists, uh and anybody else who
believes in gods or demons or devils or or or
you know, angels or spirits or ghosts, or in a

(05:46):
literal six day creation or the evolution and the Big
Bang aren't real or whatever else, they can call us
and we can actually have serious, reasonable conversations, because very
often we find that people in these communities have never
had the opportunity to actually talk to somebody who disagrees
with them. So we're here to solve that problem. We're

(06:07):
here to give you the opportunity to actually have these
conversations and test your ideas, put your faith to the test,
defend the god or gods that you believe in against
heathens like us who do this evil thing called asking questions.
That's what we're here for. And we hope that you
called in. We hope you can you can have some
fun with us. John A Man, do you have anything

(06:33):
you want to say before we before we jump in?

Speaker 3 (06:36):
Uh?

Speaker 4 (06:36):
You know, in the spirit of the today's poll, is
the human body intelligently designed I you know, speaking of
somebody with a broke ass pancreas, No, it is. It
is not the fact that the pancreas can break in general,
I think is total bullshit. And he should have went
back to the drawing board on that bullshit, and he
had thought about some better bullshit in order to replace

(06:58):
the bullshit that he came up with. So just wanted to.

Speaker 2 (07:01):
Put that out there.

Speaker 1 (07:03):
It is wild to have one massive gland that just
does really it one really big job. It does other stuff,
but like one really big job, and it can fuck
up that easily, you know what I mean, And you
just you're just kind of left left sol without that.

Speaker 2 (07:21):
I don't know that that one gets me.

Speaker 1 (07:24):
I love it whenever people call in to talk to
me about the creation of the of the eye, the
irreducible complexity, the divine beauty of the eye, And I'm like,
have you ever dissected one? Do you know how messy
they are?

Speaker 2 (07:36):
Do you know your retina is backwards, sir?

Speaker 1 (07:39):
And like I have like ninety nine times out of
one hundred if someone's calling in to talk about how
perfectly designed the eyeball is, that person does wear glasses
and so like, it's just you've got your retina backwards,
You've got a massive blind spot.

Speaker 2 (07:53):
You only have three types of cone sales.

Speaker 1 (07:55):
What the hell did cephalopods do to get the cool
eyes that we don't get? You know what I mean,
I don't know. There's a lot there if you are.
You know, in the poll right now, I've seen we've
got looks like three percent of people in the poll.
We have a lot of atheists watching today, but looks
like three percent of the people who answer the poll,

(08:18):
which is three percent of the entire world, because that's
who watches this show. Is literally everyone on the planet
have said that, yes, the human body is intelligently designed,
and yes they will call the show about it. So,
I mean, flip, dude, this is your chance call in
and let's talk. Lines are already filling up, and we

(08:38):
do have what we usually prioritize theist calls, but we
actually have a ton of atheist called We have a
theist who's currently in the screening room right now. But
as we just got started, you know, it takes a minute.
I'm going to jump in really quickly with an atheist
caller just because of the nature of of how we
started the show. Let's talk for a second to Nick pronounce.

(08:59):
He him calling in all the way from Cactus Angles,
talking about spiky things in interesting shapes. I don't know
who has a question about trans people. Nick, you're on
the line of for us and John. How you doing today?

Speaker 5 (09:17):
I'm well, thank you?

Speaker 7 (09:18):
How are you guys?

Speaker 1 (09:20):
Never had a bad day? Man doing all right?

Speaker 5 (09:27):
I I you know that Jesus gave up almost a
whole weekend for your sins, right.

Speaker 1 (09:34):
Yeah, so I've heard.

Speaker 5 (09:38):
Yeah, so it must be your church hurt that makes
you hate him so much. But my question is this,
I think you guys do a great job of explaining
trans rights. And I believe firmly in trans rights, and
you know, I think the basic issues that they deny
that there's a difference between sex and chander. But I'm

(10:00):
wondering if if it might not be an alternate approach,
a second approach to talk to them about why they care,
because I don't think you know, I mean, I think
that the I think that you know, the results of
everything that's happened recently is that to two people who

(10:21):
are athletes, you know, are no longer allowed to play
the sports that they were playing because of all that's happened.
And it seems like it affects so few people. Not
not that those those people aren't important and don't deserve,
you know, the every right that everyone else has and
and and especially the right to dignity, But what I'm

(10:45):
saying is that it affects so few people that these
that their concerned about the issue is overblown. And I
think it's overblown because a bunch of growths, you know,
a bunch of grifters who make them care for their
own wondering.

Speaker 1 (11:03):
Yeah, definitely, asking people why they're upset about trans folks
is important in its own rights, because at the end
of the day, you are correct to say that a
bunch of politicians are making this an issue. Trans people
account for a tiny portion of the population, and a
bunch of politicians are making it out that there's this

(11:24):
massive problem and blah blah blah, blah blah. And here's
the thing for me is the reason why I don't
land on that argument of why do you care these
are so few people is because it doesn't address the
fundamental issue that it doesn't matter if this accounts for
ninety nine percent of the population or literally one person

(11:46):
in the country. My argument would be the same, which
is about basic rights and dignity. And like the existence
of these people, there's there is scientific backing for these people.
But even without that, we're just talking about being a
person and having fundamental you know, basic rights and dignity
at any other person should be afforded. Maybe just to

(12:09):
start with the fact that you can be kicked out
of your home, you can be evicted for being trans,
Like we can start there, you know what I mean. Like,
I think when you compound that on top of the
fact that, like the attack ads that are being levied
against these people by the tiny percent of the population
they are, we're talking about millions of dollars being spent

(12:30):
for every trans person to put national news out saying
how evil they are. But at the end of the day,
that I think is very important to be a secondary
if not a tertiary conversation, because the primary conversation needs
to be about, like, why is it acceptable to you
to pick and choose who you do and do not think?

(12:51):
Is it okay to discriminate against I just think you
should just not discriminate against people, and if you don't
understand somebody, then you should ask some questions or maybe
just shut the fuck up. Because at the end of
the day, all of the anti trans arguments that I
deal with on a daily basis, and all the ones
that I see being levied all over the world and
with the news media, social media, whatever, are literally, word

(13:13):
for word, the exact same arguments that were being used
when I was in high school against same sex marriage.
It's the same bio essentialist we have to maintain a
civilization in the fall of Rome and blah blah blah.
It's the same brainless, dumb shit, just with a new
scapegoat in mind, because if we hurt these people, maybe
that'll solve our problems this time. And that isn't how

(13:35):
thinking works, and that is now progress works. So I
want that to be where I focus my arguments. If
you have a different argument style, feel free to try it,
but for me, it just doesn't work for me.

Speaker 5 (13:47):
I agree with you that about the prime directive. I
just think that they arguments can exist side by side,
uh and possibly and possibly uh sort of the arguments

(14:09):
can possibly develop sort of a symbiotic relationship.

Speaker 1 (14:14):
I think, secondary or tertiary. I don't think you should
lean on that alone, because at the end of the day,
what that sounds like to me is, listen, it's okay
to hate these people. Just don't make it a priority,
you know what I mean. No, no, no, no, no, no,
I do that. I know that's what a transfer wile here.

Speaker 5 (14:30):
Reason I'm part of my argument is part of my
argument is that the reason the reason that they care
is because it's because they're made to care. In other words,
I mean, you know, they've always been sort of crosnithy

(14:52):
in my experience all my life. You know, it's always
been sort of a sex thing that they sort of
focus on. But but I think, I don't know, I
think that they could be made not to care as
much as they do for the right reason, for both
right reasons, for both right reasons, for the reasons.

Speaker 1 (15:15):
You know, if you that you described, if you can
find a way to convince a transphobe not to care,
call back in and let me know about it. But
as of right now, they are transvestigating the pope, y'all.
Uh So, it's just it's I don't know what else
to tell you. It seems to me like the state

(15:37):
of people's genitals is the primary concern for a lot
of people out there, and so it should be our
primarily primary concern to make sure that human rights and
advocacy is our primary concern, especially as allies, especially assistant
or people. John, you look like you're about to say something.

Speaker 4 (15:56):
Well, yeah, I just I guess I'm rather perplexed by
the idea that you can convinced transphobs to not care
as much in this particular respect. And the transvestigating the
pope is a good example. There's also another example of
I believe in Boston there was a hotel that actually

(16:17):
they've they've forced a gender check on a couple of
women that were going to use the public restroom in
the hotel. I remember that happened while I was on vacation,
and I think that that it's just it's crazy to
think that you can actually get you know, people that
are doing these types of things to just not care

(16:40):
about those things anymore. I feel like it's been catapulted
into the public sphere so hard and and it's been
focused on so much that I think that these these
types of people, that is what they're focusing on. Like
it's just like in the nineteen fifties. Prior to the

(17:00):
nineteen fifties, where you know, people were highly focused on
like segregation and like suppressing the rights of people of color,
and I just I really don't think that in like,
I feel like it's a subject that's here to stay
and that the people that are so intensely focused on
it now, I don't think that there's anything that we

(17:22):
can say necessarily that will get them to focus away
from it or not take it so seriously. I think
the only way that that's going to happen is if
you know, they stop doing it themselves. And I think
the only thing that we can do is just consistently
push back against the bigotry that's levied in in the
LGBTQ community's direction. I think if we band together and

(17:44):
we all say we're not going to stand for this,
like as a community here in America just in general,
I think that that is the way that will eventually,
you know, phase it out of the public discussion. But
you know, I think that it's going to take a
long time.

Speaker 1 (18:04):
I appreciate you guys.

Speaker 5 (18:05):
I think that those were great answers. I really appreciate
you guys. I'm a big fan. And the last thing
I want to say is there may be a God.
I can't prove there isn't, but I'm sure there isn't
an intelligent designer, because no supreme intelligence would design a
world in which any grift or moron could claim to
speak for him.

Speaker 1 (18:26):
That's that is the definition of the problem, isn't it.

Speaker 2 (18:30):
I would also encourage you Nick.

Speaker 1 (18:31):
You know, John and I, much to the public chagrin,
are not the trans whisperers, and so like, if you
want to hear the if you want to talk more
about I'm happy to have this conversation. But also, you know,
there are real life trans people out there that host
Collin shows just like this, So I will encourage talking
to them as well and see what arguments they find
are effective and best serve their purposes of reminding people

(18:53):
that they exist and that they don't deserve to be
made into political pawns for dumb ass discussions. So I
would call arden Heart and and doctor ben And and
Katie Montgomery and Luxander and Josie Cabiiro and talk to
them about, you know, why they do what they do
and the success and failures that they've had talking to

(19:13):
different people a different stripes, and what they think is
the most important way and the most effective way for
you to be an ally to them. I think that
would be a much better conversation than talking to me
about you know what argument style that I use as
yet another assist white man on the internet.

Speaker 4 (19:29):
I would like to echo that sentiment, I am just
another s white white dude, white white hick hick hillbilly
dude from North Alabama. So like I'm probably not the
best person to go to for that anyway.

Speaker 1 (19:42):
Thank you very much, Nick, I appreciate you calling in
talking to us, kicking off the show.

Speaker 5 (19:45):
Thank you, thank you, thank.

Speaker 1 (19:47):
You, good very much. Well do good first call, good
first call. And that also while we were talking, that
got a couple of our theists through our call screen.
But waits before we talk to those. I have words
that I am required to say, and the first one
is this over here. If you like what we do
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(20:10):
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(20:30):
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(21:15):
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And with that, let's talk to Hank pronounced he and him,
who is a deist who wants to talk about five
scientific evidence for evidences pardon me for God? Hank, you

(21:40):
are on AXP with Forest and John. How you doing today?

Speaker 3 (21:45):
Hey, guys, how's it going.

Speaker 2 (21:48):
Good.

Speaker 4 (21:49):
I'm excited for these five scientific evidences for God because
I've heard a lot of different ones and so I'm
hoping that you can break the trend of the all
being bullshit. So I'm ready for you.

Speaker 3 (22:05):
John. Are you a natural engineer? I'm just curious.

Speaker 4 (22:10):
I really hate that question because it automatically assumes that
I'm just lying to people. They I know that's an
uncharitable way to interpret it. But yes, I'm an actual engineer.
I have two engineering degrees. They're right on my bookshelf
behind me.

Speaker 3 (22:24):
So like, yeah, well, I apologize. I didn't mean to
offend you, I know, like I was just curious.

Speaker 4 (22:34):
No, No, that's perfectly fine. I know that you didn't
mean it like that. It just comes across that way
to me sometimes I just I didn't mean to say
that you were being that way.

Speaker 1 (22:43):
But yeah, anyways, I get I get asked if I'm
a real biologist all the time, And funny enough, the
the line, the goalpost for being a real biologist is
always one step further than anything I tell them I've done.
It doesn't matter what it is. You have a degree,
yes I do have several. Well you've never worked in

(23:03):
this area. Yes I have.

Speaker 2 (23:04):
Actually, well you don't have a great man's degree?

Speaker 1 (23:07):
Got two of them? Actually well you don't. Yeah, I
just the nature of being on the internet anyway, HENK,
talk to me, man, what's going on with these these
scientific evidences. Let's start with the first one and go
from there.

Speaker 3 (23:22):
Okay, I had to tell the screen or something. These
are evidences that I think point toward a god for me,
and you might well disagree that they're scientific or whatever,
But my idea of God.

Speaker 1 (23:37):
You scientific or are they just things that are compelling
to you?

Speaker 3 (23:44):
I think they point towards scientific evidence. You certainly can't
prove there's a god. I understand that, but I think
they point toward and I think they're different than anything
you've ever heard before.

Speaker 1 (23:58):
Okay, all right, yeah, I will be approaching it from
a scientific lens. It's my job, but I'm not going
to hold you to the adjective of scientific too hard,
or we'll explore what you have to say for a minute.

Speaker 3 (24:13):
Sure, I'm interested in your opinion of what I think
about this, but my idea about a god is something
that doesn't interfere with the development of the universe. He
set it up and then it's just letting it go,
but he does guide it toward having an overall plan

(24:35):
that has developed into humans, and that humans are getting
better all the time. So with that explanation, I'll start
out and say, number one, the research that I've seen
about near death the experiences indicates that the experiences are

(24:56):
usually pleasant. If that's true, which is all I've been
able to find out, there must be something that's pointing
that's moving that in the direction of being pleasant. And
I'm glad you're own farce, because I think it's pretty

(25:17):
obvious that it would not be evolution that's doing this
is something beyond what we're looking at. Since it's not
random that is buying biasing this toward being a pleasant experience,
which I think points towards something that is doing this.

Speaker 4 (25:40):
So if let me ask a question in these NDEs,
how are you sure that these experiences are happening during
brain death and not on either side of the brain
coming back, like oxygen being restored, oxygen in circulation being restored.

Speaker 1 (25:59):
To the brain.

Speaker 4 (26:00):
How how how do you know that it's happening in
that time of brain death.

Speaker 3 (26:06):
I would not know that, John, I just have to
take people at their word. And like I said, the
research that I've that I've read about online talks about this,
and sometimes they seem to do things that you look
at and say, that's not possible that they could have

(26:27):
known this, like being above their body and.

Speaker 4 (26:31):
But you see, that's that's a thought stopping technique. Sorry, sorry, Hank,
That's a thought stopping technique to sit there and be like, oh,
there's no way they could have known this. That's that's
classic thoughts stopping like rhetoric there, because my brain does
not stop. Maybe it's because of you know, I've got
ADHD or you know whatever, but my brain does not
stop whenever you tell me something like that, because it's

(26:53):
like you're telling me that these people knew things that
they bought and they could have never known. So you're
telling me that there's no way that your brain could
subconsciously pick up on different things that are talked about
but between the doctors or uh, maybe things that your
brain sense that you know, you weren't conscious that your
brain picked up on. I mean subliminal messaging and all
of that is used regularly, regularly in uh, you know,

(27:16):
in advertising and everything. So your brain picks up on
a whole lot more information than you're consciously aware of.
And when you tell me, oh, it's impossible for them
to know this, I automatically doubt that, and I call
bullshit on it because of the fact that we know
brains are complicated, because of the fact that we know
that we can't pin down when these experiences are happening.

(27:38):
And uh, as far as we can tell, when the
brain starts to die and it loses oxygen and all that,
like uh, people start, the brain goes into like these
death throws and it tries to you know, it does
different things, and like one of those things is these experiences.
And so like you're gonna need to be able to
understand and be able to point with evidence at the

(28:02):
idea that this is happening during the time of brain
death and no time afterwards did you happen to read
And I don't know if Forrest might know the study
that was done on this, but they actually did do
a study on NDEs where they placed a piece of
paper with something written on it above the lights in
the room, where if there was an NDE and a
person that died on the table for a while and

(28:24):
rows out of their bodies and whatnot, they would be
able to see this paper. And nobody ever in the
study that had that they looked at was able to
accurately describe what was on the paper. So like, I
guess all of the evidence actually points away from des
and not towards INDES. And I'm kind of curious as

(28:45):
to what you have been reading this is convinced you
that indes are accurate.

Speaker 3 (28:53):
Well, I guess I would like to go back to
the point I was making was not about the ends,
but that whatever these experiences are, they the one my
fresearch looks like they're saying that they were usually almost
always pleasant, and why would they be pleasant? That was

(29:19):
the point I was trying to make.

Speaker 1 (29:21):
I would imagine if I had to hazard a guess.
You know, I haven't done any any serious studying on NDEs.
I'm looking them up right now. It is to see
because there are there is actual research. And here I
found this paper which is literally just what happens in
the brain when we die, Deciphering the Neurophysiology in the
Final Moment of Life by Schlobin at All from twenty

(29:44):
twenty three in Frontiers and Aging Neuroscience. And I've kind
of been just gimming through it to see if there's
like a predictable pattern in which things shut down in
the brain. I haven't found anything like that. I'm literally
just scanning this for the first time as we're talking here.
But like if I had hazard guess, I would bet
money that the brain evolved from the inside out. So

(30:05):
the very very center part of the brain down to
the brain stem and everything like that, those are the
parts that are really responsible for like controlling your vital functions.
And then you go a little bit further from there
and you get like the thinky thinky parts, and then
the outermost the cerebral cortex, the very outer parts those
are are you know, especially like this frontal area here

(30:26):
is parts where you actually do like critical thinking, executive function,
decision making, all these things where you're actually considering life.
And so if I had to hazard a guess about
this stuff, I would say that almost certainly your brain's
gonna shut down from the outside in as well. I
have some good reason to say that, But again, this

(30:47):
is not my area of expertise. I want to be
very sure that I'm not speaking, you know, too far
out of my area. But like I know for sure
that like when I once passed out from blood loss,
I lost my hearing first, and then I lost my vision,
and and my heart kept beating, which would tell me
that like my temporal lobes, this superior temporal lob was

(31:08):
got shutting down, my occipital lobo shutting down, my frontal
lobo shutting down. I was losing consciousness. But at the
end of the day, my mid brain was still working,
my brain stem was still working, my articular formation was
still working. Like all the parts of the brain to
keep me alive and do stuff A still working.

Speaker 6 (31:21):
Anything we can do.

Speaker 1 (31:22):
And so sorry, well a second, anything I could do
to ask.

Speaker 4 (31:36):
Was I was typing it. I forgot to meet myself
when I was typing.

Speaker 1 (31:41):
Yeah, that's fine. I'm assuming that's what the something was saying.
Somebody was saying something to me. But yes, if I
had to hazard I guess about all this, that would
be my explanation for that. You get a pleasant experience
because the part of your brain that's real good at
producing anxiety and thinking so hard about things is shutting down.

(32:02):
You know, your your dreams tend to be you know,
generally pleasantish experiences. And that's not entirely the same thing
at all. But like, you know, if if you're losing consciousness,
if you're drifting away from reality, makes sense that it
would be a relatively you know, relaxing thing, if not
a happy, excitable thing, but like chill, it would be

(32:23):
a chill thing. So I don't know, man, that That's
kind of where I'm at with it. Even if I
didn't know that, though, even if I didn't have any
good reason to say any of that, the idea that
like slipping out of consciousness being not scary or not
necessarily frightening, uh, that would just kind of follow logical

(32:44):
sense to me to say, like, I'm not holding on
to the fear of death anymore because I'm drifting out
of the part of my mind that is concerned with
that sort of thing. That's that's my whole.

Speaker 3 (32:56):
Thing, Okay, found for reasonable Okay number two. When I
think about my life, my consciousness, and the fact that
really all of us here have our consciousness has been
placed in a body during the time when there's modern

(33:21):
medicine and all the other advantages that exist today, I
think about, what's the probability that that that I happen
to be and that everybody today, at least in America
to a large extent, is in such a really good time,

(33:42):
And I think that probability is pretty small. If you
want to say, is it possible that your consciousness is
put into bodies all through time so that you're you
have experienced this many times before. It kind of answers

(34:06):
a lot of questions about justice, which doesn't necessarily have
to be true. But if that was the case, something
is doing something with these individual consciousness that is placing
it from one time period to another. I know that

(34:28):
sounds like reincarnation, but it just seems I was just
looking at the probabilities. Do you understand what I'm trying
to say?

Speaker 1 (34:38):
Not? Really, it sounds like you're saying that we're born
with our consciousness in our body and we get to
experience things. We agree on that, and it sounds like
the evidence for a god here is that our experiences
are pretty good. Right now.

Speaker 2 (34:54):
Times are good, things are going well.

Speaker 1 (34:57):
And I don't get the connection there, because like they're
not going well for everybody. They could be a whole
hell of a lot better. And what does that say
about you know, the millennia before us where things were
going worse than now. So well, I don't I don't
get it. Maybe I'm missing something.

Speaker 3 (35:14):
Okay, what I'm maybe if I said, why wasn't my
consciousness put in a body two hundred years ago when
things would have been much rougher for may?

Speaker 1 (35:27):
Oh, so why did not get your conscious Your consciousness
is an emergent property of your brain, so like it's
you you just this this particular arrangement of neurons hadn't
happened yet, I suppose, And also experiences, because it's not
all just you know brain states, it's also you know,

(35:50):
your life experiences around you, the shape and mold your
personality and blah blah blah blah. You're a unique little snowflake.
And you you hadn't been born yet, and so like again,
if that is the case, even if I didn't have
an answer for like where our consciousness comes from, or
where personalities come for anything like that, what about the

(36:10):
people who were born a little bit ago during slavery?
Was that evidence that God wasn't real? Then they were
born into such a horrible situation. What about the people
who are born right now in parts of the world
or even parts of this country where they're subjected to
horrible atrocities. There's wars going on right now, there's a

(36:32):
genocide going on right now. We have a prison industrial
complex right now. Like, We've got a lot of bad
shit going on in the world. So what about the
people born in those bodies that are experiencing those bad times?
Is that evidence against a god? Whereas your good experience
is evidence for God? I don't know, man, that that
one doesn't really hold up with me.

Speaker 3 (36:54):
Yeah, that's pretty much what I'm talking about. First, is
that they were born in multiple experiences that would explain
why you're sometimes in a good place and sometimes in
a bad place.

Speaker 4 (37:09):
Well, so if I can, well, if I can ask,
how does this how is this scientific evidence for God.
I maybe I lost that in the beginning explanation, uh,
because I thought we're supposed to be talking about scientific
evidence for God, right, So how does this how does
this prove that God exists?

Speaker 3 (37:28):
If we have if our consciousness is in multiple bodies
over time, somebody is or something is putting those that
consciousness in different bodies.

Speaker 4 (37:41):
Okay, what's your proof that our consciousness is something that's
not an emergent property of our of our brain, and
that can be transported across time and space to different
two different brains and different bodies, Like, what where's your
evidence that this can even actually happen?

Speaker 3 (38:05):
John, I'm not trying to present any proof because I
know I can't. I was just looking at the probability
of me just having this great experience compared to the
probability of it happening multiple times, and this just happens.

Speaker 4 (38:21):
So hold on, Hank, Hank, I don't understand the point
of this, of this particular point in your five scientific
evidences that prove God, Like, if it's not meant to
be some kind of evidence that persuade you in the
direction of God, then I mean, why is it in
the list? Like, why are we discussing this, like I

(38:43):
it just seems weird. I ask you for evidence, and
you say, oh, this isn't meant to prove God. But
yet we like we asked you, like, how does this
prove God? And you're trying to answer it but it's
apparently not supposed to prove God. I'm thoroughly confused. I
don't know, Forrest, do you understand?

Speaker 1 (39:00):
It sounds more like what Hank is saying is that
like things are going really and maybe again, correct me
if I'm wrong. I'm not trying to straw man you here.
It sounds like what you're saying is that times are
really good for you personally, and that seems unlikely considering
how shitty times have been for everybody else in history,

(39:21):
including today. So God, and I don't. I can't wrap
my head around that.

Speaker 3 (39:30):
Okay, I'll try one more time and then I'll drop it. Okay,
times are really good for me right now, but if
my consciousness has been in multiple bodies across time, then
it hasn't. This is just one of those times that
are good for me.

Speaker 1 (39:49):
Right But it hasn't. It hasn't been in multiple bodies
across time. We have no reason to say that that's true.

Speaker 4 (39:55):
Yeah, that's what I was trying to say. What evidence
is there that our consciousness has been in multiple bodies
across time? Like you're just you're spouting that. You're just
throwing that out there in like in the clouds, like
you're just picking it. Like it just seems like a
random thought that you're picking out, you know, of of
your thoughts there, Like I you know, what, what if
what if you know, our consciousness was thrown into like

(40:17):
some kind of extraterrestrial that lives in a utopia? Like
that seems like that would be a much better situation
than uh, than us living here on earth amongst all
of the unnecessary suffering and evil that we find ourselves in. Like,
you know, what is what? What does that mean? The
fact that God, that this creator that you think that
this points to puts us here in this hellscape rather

(40:38):
than in a utopia. Like it just seems like you're
just randomly picking a topic out and saying, well, what
if this?

Speaker 3 (40:49):
Okay, I guess I can sleep. I'll give up that.
What can you?

Speaker 1 (40:56):
Instead of instead of giving up on can I can?
I just ask like why do you say that? Because
like I know you said to John, you can't prove it,
So why do you say it? Why do you say
that your consciousness has existed in lots of other bodies?
What makes you believe that's true?

Speaker 3 (41:14):
Playing that because I'm saying that because I think the
probability that I just happened to be put in this
great time is very much less than the probability that
I have been in different bodies multiple times across time.

(41:34):
I'm just looking at probabilities.

Speaker 1 (41:37):
That's it, do you think? Okay? So, but I'm going
to ignore the most of that because it's a whole
other scientific question, just to try to get to your point.
Do you think the times now are better than they
were so, let's say two or three hundred years ago?

Speaker 3 (41:56):
I think they. I think mankind has and I definitely
think the time for me right now would be better
than if I had been born two hundred years ago.

Speaker 1 (42:09):
Okay, I can agree to that. I feel the same way.
Do you think that things are going to continue to
get better?

Speaker 5 (42:16):
Though?

Speaker 1 (42:16):
Like with as science continues to progress and technology continues
to progress. Do you think that three hundred years from
now life might be even better than it is at
this moment?

Speaker 3 (42:29):
I think the probability is very good that it will
be better. Although I realize that things get better and
then sometimes they'll get worse, sometimes they'll get better. But
on a long scale time we're headed up or doing better.

Speaker 1 (42:45):
I can agree to that more or less. Yeah, sure
there's special circumstances, and yes things do fluctuate, but overall
I agree, I think things are getting better. So if
you're saying that it's so spectacularly unlikely that you were
born in this time when things are so good, then
why don't you think it would be more evidence for

(43:07):
this guy would be more spectacular if you were born
five hundred years from now, when things are really good.
And if you were born then, then you would be
looking back at today in twenty twenty five and saying, oh, man,
I could have been born back then when they still
didn't have a cure for cancer yet and you still
had to pay an arm and a leg for basic healthcare,
and like we're and where trans people weren't you know,

(43:29):
equally represented. And that's to me, it sounds like your
argument only works if time stops tomorrow and this is
the best it's ever going to get.

Speaker 3 (43:42):
No, I'm saying, maybe we'll be born again five hundred
years from now, do you.

Speaker 1 (43:48):
But but we were trying to get across, is that
there's no good reason to think that happens. We have
no evidence whatsoever of a brain or of a mind
existing outside of a body, and we have no existent
evidence whatsoever of someone's consciousness being supplanted, transplanted into somebody else,

(44:09):
or being born again. We don't have any reason to
think any of that. You said some stuff about probability.
I don't think it's reasonable. But at the end of
the day, even if that is what happened, that doesn't
mean that there's a god doing it that that that
just means that that's the thing that happens. That doesn't
necessitate any kind of arbiter for that sort of thing.

(44:30):
It sounds to me like you've made a lot of
assumptions here, And I don't understand why.

Speaker 3 (44:39):
I was As I said, I was just in my
mind that looks like evidence, not proof, certainly not going
to that something is controlling. If that's the truth, and
I know that there's no evidence for that, I agree
with you undred percent. But if that's number three, something

(45:02):
is controlling, let's.

Speaker 1 (45:04):
Try number three then, because we're gonna we're gonna disagree
on that, but maybe number three will shed more less.
What's your third evidence for God? So for we've been
about ten minutes on each one, let's hear the next one.
I don't think we're going to get through all five
at this rate, but I want to hear another one.

Speaker 3 (45:20):
Well, it's I'm taking up too much time. I understand.

Speaker 2 (45:23):
Uh, it's okay, it's okay, you're doing great.

Speaker 3 (45:28):
Okay, I'm going to give one. I'm going to say,
occasionally someone comes along, like I'm going to say, like
a George Fox or a Gandhy or Martin Luther King,
who are willing to sacrifice their lives for the betterment
of mankind. And since I've got you on the line, Forrest,

(45:50):
I think you'll I think you'll be able to understand
what I'm saying, at least that this appears to go
against a normal response of self preservation, which means to
me that there could be a force in the universe
that is slowly guiding mankind toward what I would consider

(46:11):
a more godlike response that wasn't in line with natural responses.

Speaker 1 (46:18):
What about I have a lot of problems with that one.
I have a lot of problems with that one. Okay,
So just to start with you, you mentioned like Gandhi
and Martin Luther King, they did give their lives for
their cause, not on purpose. They were both assassinated. I
guarantee neither one of them were excited about the situation.

(46:40):
They they they were murdered by by people, so like
it doesn't that doesn't really at track for me, however,
not not sticking just to those guys, there are other
situations in which people have sacrificed their lives intentionally for
the good of humanity as a whole. That the first

(47:00):
thing came to mind was like the Chernobyl liquidators, you
know what I mean, Like the people who knew that
they were going to die, but as soldiers you know whatever,
who do these things knowing they're going to die just
for the betterment of their community. That does not go
against nature, especially in a highly social species like ours.
Duty and service totally just said, duty and service to

(47:25):
your community, especially to family and those who perceive as family,
is a highly motivating factor that actually is selectively like advantageous.
When we talk about evolution, we can actually dig into
that there's there is direct fitness, which is your reproduction

(47:45):
and your offsprings reproduction. And then there's indirect fitness, which
is talking about your your family members, like I would
gladly give my life for two brothers or eight cousins
kind of thing, you know what I mean, Like that
you're if you're helping your family members reproduce, that's still
a fitness benefit to the species overall. And so there's

(48:07):
still a thing there altogether. We call that inclusive fitness.
It's a whole bonanza of weird terms, but there's still
What I'm trying to get across is that there is
a naturalistic explanation for this, and even if there wasn't,
I don't think that that leads to godly behavior, considering
the fact that like there's none of that in the

(48:27):
God that you worship in terms of like this self
sacrificing behavior.

Speaker 2 (48:30):
We don't see that in your God.

Speaker 3 (48:36):
Okay, one point I would like to ask you about
what about the I guess fact. I guess it's a
fact that people in general, the public looks that people
like that like Gandee and Martin Luther King, and there's

(48:57):
something in them that says this is a godlike characteristic
whatever you want to call God our sacrificial talent, which
wouldn't happen with say, you know the people that flew
planes into the World Trade Center, but they look at
these absolutely would and they are willing to follow them

(49:17):
and say, you know, this is godlike and I want
to follow them.

Speaker 1 (49:24):
I want to push back on that. Absolutely, that is
the same exact thing. So Martin Luther, King and Gandhi
worshiped different gods and had vastly different religions and did
what they did for the betterment of their communities and
their people who are being oppressed, and they used religion
sometimes as a motivator, but not all the time. And

(49:48):
as far as you know, the terrorists who flew planes
in the buildings, like I hate to break it to you, Hank,
but they were devoutly religious and they were doing that
for their God as well. And they were doing that
because they believed that that was godly behavior. They were
extremely Like it's funny because like, if if we had
their morality, if we believed in their doctrine, they would

(50:11):
be incredibly moral people. Because they were so devoted to
their morality that they were willing to sacrifice their lives
for it, like you were trying to attribute to Gandhi
and MLK a minute ago. These are people who are
so devoted to their godly beliefs they did atrocious things.
And we see that in Christianity too. This is not
exclusively a thing in Islam. There have been plenty of

(50:33):
Christian terrorists and plenty of Christian martyrs, and plenty of
Christian you know, people who went out there and committed
heinous atrocities in the name of their God because they
believe it was godly behavior. Lest we forget that race,
that slavery was headed up by Christians in this country,
that the Confederacy was, the Articles of Secession from Texas

(50:58):
specifically says we are leaving the United States to preserve
slavery because that is what the Christian God tells us
to do, and any Christian nation should do the same.
The KKK is a Christian organization, The Lord's Resistance Army
is a Christian organization. Plenty of Christian terrorists and plenty
of Christian sons of bitches out there. So like at

(51:19):
the end of the day, you're describing the lengths to
which fundamentalism can drive somebody, and it can drive somebody
to very good extremes, or it can drive somebody to
very bad extremes. But at the end of the day,
the warning is that it can drive you to extremes. Humanity, humanism, atheism, secularism,

(51:41):
belief in the virtue of humanity for humanity's sakes, those
things can also lead you to an extreme, but only
in a good direction. We have yet to see an
atheist terrorist who is out there hurting people because they're
just so atheist and they want to prove atheism. That
hasn't had happen yet as far as I know. But

(52:01):
we've seen plenty of people bombing people, destroying hospitals, flying planes,
and buildings to prove their religion. We've seen that quite
a bit.

Speaker 3 (52:13):
Uh. Again, I great with you one hundred percent, But
I wasn't talking about Gandy and Martin Luther King. I
was talking about other people that when they do things
where they're self sacrificing, Uh, other people look at it.
What is it in other people that make them think

(52:34):
this is a godly thing? Not the people themselves, but
other people.

Speaker 7 (52:39):
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (52:39):
I don't understand why you go to godly thing like
I like that that sounds like a very subjective and
human determined sort of classification for things.

Speaker 3 (52:48):
It.

Speaker 4 (52:49):
I mean, if you're just talking about self sacrifice, I
don't see how god like self sacrifice is a godly thing.
I mean, I just I just don't understand, Like, why
would think that that is a godly thing? What's your client? Like,
how do you define what a godly thing is?

Speaker 6 (53:08):
Uh?

Speaker 3 (53:09):
John, You're right, I shouldn't have said godly. It's that
people look at them and think this is the right
thing to do. I'm willing to follow this person.

Speaker 1 (53:22):
How Sorry, No, No, I'm saying the same thing as you. I.
I think that just speaks to culture. I think that
just speaks to the fact that that to to sacrifice
yourself for something that you believe in, especially if that
thing happens to be the benefit of all humanity, is
an incredibly brave and selfish, selfless thing to do. And

(53:43):
we all aspire to be so cool because we kind
of have that culture of of like, it's it's better
to help people around you. And if you see someone
who's willing to kill themselves over how much they're willing
to help you, that's great. I as an atheist, can
look Gandhi and say, hey, a lot of what he
did and spoke for and stood for was wonderful, and

(54:07):
I aspire to be as great as he was someday.
But I can also look at some of the shitty
things that he said and some of the shitty things
that he did and be like, I don't want to
be that eye though, you know, and so like that,
all you're telling me is that, like you know, we
we are challenged by people who exceed our expectations and

(54:29):
exceed our limitations and do great things, and we are.

Speaker 2 (54:33):
Compelled by their incredible moral character and selflessness, the same
way that we are compelled by seeing a great athlete,
And they and their greatness challenge us to go out
and strive to be better, you know, or a great
mathematician or scientist, and they compel us to go be
smarter and to work harder.

Speaker 1 (54:52):
And like that, If it, I think that's just the
nature of humans as competitive little monkeys. Man, That's just
what we do. Oh John, do you have anything else,
anything else you want to throw on there?

Speaker 6 (55:04):
Well?

Speaker 4 (55:05):
Yeah, I just I don't. I really don't understand how,
you know, self sacrifice is any any way points towards
you know, a divine figure, because like, uh, I could
like I could, uh, you know, decide to sacrifice myself,
you know, for the betterment of mankind or whatnot, and

(55:25):
and people could follow me. But that doesn't make me
like God. It doesn't make me like any kind of
divine figure.

Speaker 5 (55:32):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (55:32):
It just it just makes me somebody that that you know, sacrifices,
Like it's just a fact I sacrifice myself or whatever.
Maybe that uh huh.

Speaker 1 (55:44):
I was gonna say, it doesn't suppose that there's any
divine thing either, not not just making you god, but
it doesn't suppose that there's any divine thing like a
God that made you do that, because I think that's
what Hank is hinting at.

Speaker 4 (55:57):
Right, And I I just don't think that that necessarily
and tells anything about the supernatural or creator being or
anything like that. Like I just don't see the connection there.
So that's where I'm getting lost.

Speaker 1 (56:09):
Yeah, Hank, does that? Does that like answer your question
a little bit?

Speaker 3 (56:15):
Uh? Yeah, I think so. But you did bring up
something that I've often wondered about. When you look at
the right of atheists that are in prison compared to
the eight right of other people religious people that are
in prison. You'll see that it's incredibly small, and I'm
wondering why this. Atheists don't make the argument that if

(56:37):
everybody converted to atheism, we could pretty much eliminate prisons.

Speaker 1 (56:42):
Oh yeah, go ahead, I'm talking for a while.

Speaker 4 (56:48):
Yeah, I mean, because, uh, you know, breaking the law, well,
hold on, hank, hank. Uh So breaking the law, being
a shithead or or you know, being evil to your
fellow man or whatnot that exists across the religious spectrum.
So like religious non religious, it doesn't matter. Like I mean,
I don't think that becoming an atheist inherently makes you

(57:09):
a better person. But I do think that, you know,
decoupling yourself from the very archaic ideas that religion convinces
you to accept can potentially make you a better person.
But I don't think that you're inherently a better person
just because you don't believe in a god. It's a

(57:32):
very nuanced thing. But definitely becoming an atheist or shedding
religious ideals does not inherently make you a better person.

Speaker 1 (57:42):
Yeah, I would say that the atheists are a smaller
percentage of the population, so it would make sense that
they would be a smaller percentage of the prison population
as well. However, to your point, they are like disproportionately smaller,
Like they are not even represented at the rate that
you would expect with their small population size. But the

(58:03):
main reason we wouldn't use that as an argument is
that although atheists, you know, would I guess have a
better reason to be more humanistic and to not do
hay and a shitty things. At the end of the
time day, correlation isn't causation, and I can understand why that's.
You know, it would be an illogical argument. Uh, and

(58:24):
it wouldn't serve anybody any real good I do. I
love the idea of eliminating prisons, but I don't think
atheism is a way to do it. I think, you know,
a better society is the way to do it.

Speaker 3 (58:36):
Okay, well with that, and yeah, and I want to
hear your last two things.

Speaker 1 (58:44):
I hope you call us again sometime and.

Speaker 3 (58:45):
Tell us thanks all.

Speaker 1 (58:50):
Right, take care, Hank, I appreciate you later, Thanks great,
Thanks you great call. The man's willing to listen, sincerely.
It seems at least and a little bit. And the
questions aren't awful. The questions are the kind of questions
that I would expect from somebody who's been a lifelong

(59:10):
believer and has grown up around church going folk with
church going ideas. And that's that's what I hear a
lot in Hank. But the man is willing to hear
us out as we ramble for a long time, and
and I really do appreciate that. That's what these shows

(59:31):
are for. Y'all. We've got a bunch of calls left,
and we have thirty minutes left in the show.

Speaker 2 (59:39):
Let's talk to Let's do you know what?

Speaker 1 (59:46):
This may be the entirely complete opposite of Hank's call,
because this, I got to be honest, I'm reading the
call screen here. This is a hell of a topic,
figuratively and literally, because the topic is about hell. Let's
talk to Dave pronouncing him who said, I wanted to
make a comment about the idea of hell existing while
a loving God exists. I don't think those two are compatible.

(01:00:07):
So let's see what Dave has to say. Dave, you
are on AXB with Forrest and John. How are you
doing to that there?

Speaker 7 (01:00:14):
Hey, I'm doing pretty good. How are you guys?

Speaker 1 (01:00:18):
Never had a bad day? Man?

Speaker 4 (01:00:20):
Done goods.

Speaker 7 (01:00:24):
Awesome?

Speaker 6 (01:00:25):
So this is the first time I've caught into a
show like this, so I'm not quite certain how this works,
but yeah, we.

Speaker 1 (01:00:34):
Can walk through it if you like, you can start
so yeah, So basically, like we're you can expect us
to talk quite a bit because the audience is here
to listen to what the atheists say to what you're saying,
so forgive us for that. We're going to try to
guide the conversation in so far as like keeping it
on track, but we will do our best not to
control and dominate it. We will be as pleasant as

(01:00:56):
you are, so as long as you're not interrupting, insulting,
and like it, we'll try to avoid that as well,
unless we get real fired up. We will be respectful
of you as much as you allow us to be.
We will not be respectful of your God. And a
great place for you to start is by telling us
what God you believe in.

Speaker 6 (01:01:18):
Sure, I believe in the Christian God, so I am
I am a Christian, right I do? I do believe
that God sent his son to the earth for him
to die for our sense for mankind, and likewise, in
you know, transitioning into the main topic, Jesus was a

(01:01:40):
very loving person, and he reflected the qualities of the
Father perfectly. Therefore, it makes no sense that hell fire
should exist a k a. The idea that souls are
burned each eternally in hell. I saw the whole reason

(01:02:04):
I'm calling this is I saw real of that you
guys had on some of us out of Instagram where
the man was. You were basically arguing that they were
in the federal and I agreed with.

Speaker 7 (01:02:14):
You, actually because because they aren't.

Speaker 6 (01:02:18):
So the dough the study of the scriptures that I
have done, essentially, I have drawn the conclusion that while
hell may exist, or that the technical definition of it
hell fire or the fact that souls are thrown into.

Speaker 7 (01:02:36):
It eternally does not.

Speaker 6 (01:02:39):
Exactly, I do not believe that the soul.

Speaker 1 (01:02:42):
Oh oh no, you're fine. I didn't mean interrupt you.
I was going to ask you some follow up questions,
but go and finish what you're saying first.

Speaker 6 (01:02:51):
Uh, don't go ahead, Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:02:56):
So from what I'm understanding, Uh, you you believe in
the Christian God, you believe in Jesus. You say that
Jesus was a loving person and was reflecting of the
God the of the Bible, and you say that hell
fire doesn't exist because that is not a loving condition.
And so when the Bible talks about whiling and gnashing
of teeth and all those things, you're assuming that has

(01:03:17):
a different interpretation, a different meaning. So my follow up
question would be to understand that a little bit better.
Do you believe that the Bible is literally true or
figuratively true and it needs to be interpreted?

Speaker 7 (01:03:32):
Well, it's both.

Speaker 6 (01:03:33):
Certain parts need to be interpreted and certain parts are literal.
So for instance, there are factories that are literal that
did happen. So for instance, you know David and Goliath,
I believe that that actually happened, that that was a
historical event. Yet the Richmond and Lazarus story I believe
was a parable and was symbolic, and should it be

(01:03:56):
interpreted symbolically.

Speaker 4 (01:03:58):
Well, okay, you think the Lazarus of the Gospel of
John is a real thing?

Speaker 6 (01:04:08):
Okay, so well, there's two Lazarus. Is the Lazarus that
was Jesus's friend that he raised from the dead after
four days. I do believe that was a historical event.
But the story of Richmond and Lazarus, of the weeping
and the gnashing of the teeth and seeing, you know,
from hell looking up into heaven. That is a parable

(01:04:30):
that should be interpreted symbolically.

Speaker 1 (01:04:34):
Okay, what about one last question for me before I
jump in is do you believe that the God caricature,
the caricature presented of God throughout the entire Bible, Old
and New Testament, including Jesus, Because I'm assuming you're talking
about trinitarianism type thing, right, that Jesus is God? Is
that right?

Speaker 7 (01:05:00):
Actually?

Speaker 6 (01:05:00):
Personally the word trinity is not in the Bible.

Speaker 1 (01:05:04):
Great cool, So then I can separate them. That's fine,
So same question them and I'll separate them out. Do
you believe that the character of God in the Old
and New Testaments and the character of Jesus in the
New Testament? Do you believe that the way that the
Bible presents these characters is an accurate depiction of who

(01:05:27):
they really are? Or do you think that like the
things that God says in the Bible, the things that
God does in the Bible, the things that Jesus says
and does, that some of those are also parables or
poetry to be interpreted.

Speaker 6 (01:05:44):
So it's sounding like the same thing, which is it
has to be taken in context, right, certain things did
happen in certain things or not?

Speaker 1 (01:05:55):
But regardless, what can you give me an example of
a commandment or action of God not Jesus, a commandment
or action that God takes in the Bible or gives
in the Bible that is not to be taken literally,
that is actually to be interpreted.

Speaker 6 (01:06:16):
Uh, there's there's several. Once again, you would have to
give me like a specific instance, and then I could
and then I could tell you whether or not it
whether or not I believe it should be interpreted literally
or or symbolically.

Speaker 1 (01:06:33):
I get.

Speaker 4 (01:06:33):
I got a great one. They yeah, yeah, sorry, sorry,
I got a great one, Dave. Just to just as
like a test here, do you know number thirty one?

Speaker 6 (01:06:48):
I you can specify?

Speaker 4 (01:06:53):
Well, I mean so okay, So number thirty one is
where God or orders Moses to go and utterly destroy
all of the Midianites. When he doesn't utterly destroy all
the Midianites, but he saves like the young women, all
the women and children and everything like that. You know,

(01:07:14):
Moses gets mad on behalf of God and then he
commands them to go back in and kill all of
the women who have known a man as well as
all the children, all the little boy children, and all
the men and everybody in the city except for all
of the virgin girls, so that they can take them
as plunder. And then later on in number thirty one,
it actually specifies what they're supposed to do with those

(01:07:36):
virgin girls, and that's that they were supposed to be
forced into marriages to Israelites. But one out of every
five hundred of these little girls was to be a
sacrifice as a burnt offering to God. So now in
number thirty one, is that something that needs to be
interpreted or is that something that literally happened as a
matter of history, like God handed down those commands.

Speaker 6 (01:07:58):
Okay, so there are I do believe that. Okay, you're
gonna have to specify one point of that. There is
one point of that that I do not that I
think needs to be clarified. I do not recall any
instance of God requiring a human sacrifice.

Speaker 1 (01:08:17):
That whoa hold on your I can you don't you
don't think you can't give anyone instance in which.

Speaker 6 (01:08:26):
Sorry, okay, hold on, sorry, sorry, yeah, okay, obviously obviously okay, yeah,
sorry about that. That was wildly uh yeah, okay, Jesus
obviously Okay, sorry, I mean this is.

Speaker 1 (01:08:38):
Also like and also like daughter. For example's daughter is
another one. Jephtha is a I believe it was a general,
and he prais to God and says, if you let
me win this battle, I will sacrifice the first thing
that comes to my home. He goes home, it's his daughter,
and he sacrifices her to to good God knew that
was going to happen.

Speaker 6 (01:09:00):
Okay, but hold on, So Jesus's daughter was not sacrifice.
She did not give her life.

Speaker 1 (01:09:05):
And she did she was no, she did. No, Oh
my god, hold on.

Speaker 7 (01:09:12):
You're saying.

Speaker 6 (01:09:13):
You're saying that Jesus's daughter was killed.

Speaker 1 (01:09:17):
That is the Let me find the verse.

Speaker 6 (01:09:19):
Hold on, Jeatha's daughter was sacrificed, yes, but she served
her days in the temple. She was sacrificed in the
way that she was not able to basically get married.
She was dedicated to the temple. She was not killed,
she was not.

Speaker 5 (01:09:35):
No.

Speaker 2 (01:09:35):
No, oh my god, this is so wrong.

Speaker 1 (01:09:37):
Expecting I'm finding it and hold on because I've heard
this before and I want to find it really quickly.

Speaker 3 (01:09:49):
She she re read it.

Speaker 4 (01:09:51):
So sorry, this is judges, Uh, this is judges. Eleven,
right if you, if you turn in your Bible judges eleven,
if you go all the way down to verse thirty one.
This is part of Jephtha's promise to God, whatever comes
out of the door of my house to meet me
when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be

(01:10:15):
the Lord's And let me just shout this so that
everybody can hear and only have to say it once,
and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.

Speaker 1 (01:10:28):
And then in thirty eight, no sorry, thirty nine, thirty eight,
she goes up into the mountains to cry about how
she's never gonna have sex. And then in thirty nine,
after two months of crying about the fact that she's
gonna di avergin, she comes down and it says as
she returned to her father, who did with her according
to his vow that he had vowed. So in the

(01:10:49):
beginning of the chapter, Jephtha says, I will sacrifice as
burnt offering whatever comes out of my house, and then
at the end of the chapter he says he does
what he swore he would do his order. So this
none of that says that she lived out her life
in the temple.

Speaker 6 (01:11:08):
Okay, so I will need to because this is the
first I've ever heard of that interpretation.

Speaker 7 (01:11:20):
I will, I will.

Speaker 1 (01:11:21):
That's what it says in the book.

Speaker 2 (01:11:24):
Interpreting it.

Speaker 4 (01:11:25):
We're using our eyes to read the words on the page.

Speaker 6 (01:11:30):
Okay, and so and I and I will grant that
I need to do definitely need to do more research
on that, because I was not expecting hold on.

Speaker 4 (01:11:39):
Hold on, Sorry, Dave, I need to ask for something
for us, However, for hold on, hold on, Dave, Dave,
I need to ask for something for us. If I
were to tell you to sacrifice a small child as
a burnt offering to God, do you think that you
need to interpret that or like you need to like
anything like a way to get around it.

Speaker 1 (01:11:59):
If you came to me and told me to sacrifice
a child for any reason, I would call first a
cab and then the police.

Speaker 5 (01:12:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:12:07):
So there's no there's no need to interpret anything about it.

Speaker 7 (01:12:14):
So I need it, Okay.

Speaker 6 (01:12:16):
So first off, I just want to say that we're
getting a bit off topic. The original topic that I
had started off was that of hell fire, right, and
so I understand that the reasoning that had led up
to this point so far was I believe that you
guys were trying to essentially say that there are many
acts of rats that God exacts upon his children and therefore.

Speaker 1 (01:12:38):
And that's not that's not really what we're going for
to go to. So sorry, that's that's not really what
we're going for. Because here's the thing, man, is that
like when you when you said that, I took notes
to what you said. You said the hell fire doesn't
mean literal hell fire when they talk about fire, brimstone,
gnashing of teeth, whaling, all the whatever it is that
the Bible says, I remember whale and nashaltee that I remember.

(01:13:01):
I think a lake of fire is in there as well.
You believe these are metaphorical terms because that does not
comport with your idea of an eternally loving God. I
get that. I wrote it down quite frankly. It doesn't
like I'm not interested in hashing it out too much.
Because there are over forty thousand denominations of Christianity. We
talked to all of them on this show. You said

(01:13:23):
you saw a clip of us on Instagram talking about this.
I think I know what clipped that was, because there
was one that went very viral and like, the thing
is that guy that we were talking to was a
Christian who did believe that there was literal, actual fire
in Brimstone and hell fire and a lake of fire,

(01:13:44):
and literal conscious torture and all these things.

Speaker 2 (01:13:47):
He did believe that. And I have talked to other.

Speaker 1 (01:13:50):
Christians on this show who believe that it is just
a separation from God. And I've talked to other Christians
on this show who believe that it's annihilation. I've talked
to other Christians on the show who believe that it
is painful and stuff. But it's just for a minute,
It's just a little tiny bit of it. I've talked
to it, and at the end of the day, it
doesn't mean anything. What I'm more interested in is okay, cool,
you believe that. I'm more interested in what you're talking

(01:14:11):
here about how the Bible needs to be interpreted sometimes
because the God of the Bible is a monster, Dave
front to back. The Bible is a pro slavery book.
The Bible is pro genocide. The Bible is pro misogyny,
the Bible is pro rape. The Bible is an awful
text with an awful God who says and does awful things,

(01:14:32):
and so I'm curious if this is the stance you're taking,
that you don't believe in Hell because it doesn't violate
this concept of love and that all these things need
to be interpreted. I want to figure out what you
actually mean by these interpretations, where you're actually drawing these lines,
and on what authority you're drawing those lines. That's more
interesting to me by a lot, because at the end

(01:14:52):
of the day, if you just say I don't believe
Hell's is okay, you're in in version three to thirty nine,
eight and sixty four of Gianity neat, that doesn't tell
me much.

Speaker 7 (01:15:07):
Fair enough.

Speaker 6 (01:15:08):
I mean, ultimately, what it comes down to is that
I believe that the Bible is, when self contained, true
to itself, that there are no contradictions.

Speaker 7 (01:15:20):
And I know that you guys.

Speaker 6 (01:15:21):
Okay, probably have a huge list to do me.

Speaker 1 (01:15:25):
Down because we've read the damn thing.

Speaker 6 (01:15:28):
And I I and so have I.

Speaker 7 (01:15:32):
But let me.

Speaker 4 (01:15:35):
Hold on you because because you've never heard of Jeff's daughter, well,
I mean that that is a footnote.

Speaker 1 (01:15:41):
But like you say, there's no contradiction. What do you
what do you think about the resurrection? Arguably the most
important part of the whole Bible the point of the story, right,
the resurrection. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John each tell different
versions of this story that are incompatible with one another.
So right there, what do you think about that? How

(01:16:01):
is it not a contradiction when you have four Gospels
telling totally different stories of the most important part of
the book.

Speaker 7 (01:16:14):
Okay, the resurrection of Jesus.

Speaker 1 (01:16:18):
Jesus, Yes, which.

Speaker 6 (01:16:20):
Which resurrectionary talking about?

Speaker 7 (01:16:21):
Because there's multiple ones? Okay, Okay, I see the.

Speaker 1 (01:16:24):
One from the tomb. He was put in the tomb
and then after three days he was raised from the dead.
That story has four different versions, a different one in Matthew, Mark, Luke,
and John. So if the Bible has no contradictions, I
believe what about the contradictions? Though?

Speaker 6 (01:16:41):
I believe that all of those events took place as
they as they are described, but they may have been
taking place at different times.

Speaker 4 (01:16:49):
Well, if I can ask, basically, if I can ask
one particular contradiction happened? But Dave, I've got one particular contradiction.
Like a question to ask you is see if you
can give me a definite answer based on your knowledge
of the Gospels and the resurrection story. Contained in all
four gospels. How many angels were at the tomb when

(01:17:10):
the women got there?

Speaker 6 (01:17:19):
Yeah, it's off the top of my memory, but I
believe it was two.

Speaker 4 (01:17:23):
Well that's one answer. Yeah, that's one answer. There's either two,
none or one. It's either two none or one.

Speaker 1 (01:17:32):
In Matthew it's one. In Mark and Luke it's none,
and in John it's two. So if you're saying these
things happened at different times, then how many times did
Mary go to the tomb and see these different angels
and be surprised each time? Like, what's going on with that?

Speaker 6 (01:17:55):
That's an excellent that's an excellent specific situation that, Yeah,
I need to do more, Radir.

Speaker 4 (01:18:00):
John, Yeah, I would also I would also ask like
how did the tune how did the tomb cover become opened?
Because they're even even on that detail, there's multiple.

Speaker 2 (01:18:11):
Matthew different correct Matthew says.

Speaker 1 (01:18:14):
Matthew says that the tomb was closed when Mary got there,
and then there was a great earthquake and then an
angel appeared rolled the tomb away and rolled the stone
away and sat on top of it. Mark, Luke, and
John all say that the tomb was already open when
she got there, and that's why she ran inside freaking out,
wanting to see what had happened. That's very different also

(01:18:35):
when when it comes to whether or not Jesus is
actually there. In Matthew, when the angel opens a tomb,
Mary runs in, Jesus isn't there, and the angel says, yeah,
he's already gone. In Mark and Luke, the tomb is
already open, and also Jesus is already gone. But in
John Jesus is he appears. He shows up and he's like, yo,
I haven't ascended yet, but but don't touch me. And

(01:18:57):
then he fucks off after that. So like the there's
Andre' that's not even the beginning, man, there's there's a
ton of contradictions between those stories, and that's the end
of the Bible, the very beginning of the Bible. Genesis
chapter one and Genesis chapter two are also completely different
stories that tell different events happening in different orders, but
that cannot possibly overlap. So like what you have here

(01:19:19):
is a book that again it cover to cover. This
book is pro slavery, This book is pro genocide, This
book is pro misogyny, pro rape. It is not a
good book. It has a couple of good lessons in there,
but so does the Lord of the Rings, you know.
And it's full of contradictions, it's full of plot holes,

(01:19:40):
it's full of folk lore and things that you don't accept. Today,
it looks exactly as you would expect it to look
if it were just a collection of stories put together
by humans with a political agenda. It looks nothing like
what you would expect it to look if it was
the inspired word of the most intelligent being in the universe.

(01:20:01):
So what it sounds to me, Dave, is that when
you say that certain parts are literal, those are the
parts you like. And when you say that certain parts
need to be interpreted, those are the parts that you
either don't like or don't know about. And you just
have this story, this preferred version of Christianity that appeals
to you. That doesn't work for thirty nine and ninety

(01:20:23):
nine other kinds of Christians out there, but it's enough
to make you feel like you're going to go to heaven.
So you don't really care. Does that sound like a
fair summer or do you think I'm missing something?

Speaker 6 (01:20:37):
Well, a few specifics, you know, For the most part,
I think you're right, But on the smaller portion. So
like there's a few key differences. First off, I never
said that Keepta's daughter was to be interpreted symbolically. I
do believe that's where happened. I simply said I needed

(01:20:58):
some time to look into it.

Speaker 1 (01:21:00):
We're very responsible.

Speaker 7 (01:21:01):
I'm saying a similar thing.

Speaker 3 (01:21:03):
The thing.

Speaker 7 (01:21:03):
The thing is that.

Speaker 6 (01:21:04):
You guys, you know you you are extremely intelligent.

Speaker 7 (01:21:09):
You have done a ton of research.

Speaker 6 (01:21:11):
I really appreciate and I can appreciate the effort that
you guys have gone through, right, and so you have
this list you know, of contradictions, and I and I
get it right. The thing is that I think that
with enough study that admittedly I need to do more
of and I and I know that it sounds probably

(01:21:32):
sounds weak because I'm saying this and I don't have
the answer for you right now, right here, for every
single contradiction that you guys have. But you know, there's
a lot of things that require additional studies. So what
I am saying is is that you know, I need
some time to take these things that you guys have said,
because you guys are very well aware. I'm sure that

(01:21:55):
oftentimes we don't real talk to people. You know, Christians
don't talk to people that are as studious.

Speaker 7 (01:22:04):
As some of you guys.

Speaker 1 (01:22:05):
Right as antheists I tend to be. Here's the thing, Dave,
is that, like we, I didn't have a prepared list here,
Like I do have some notes, Like when I'm reading,
I'm just looking through my Bible, right, and my Bible
is full of highlights and notes in the margins and
all sorts of stuff, and literally, like that part that

(01:22:27):
we just went over, like the different gospel accounts of
the resurrection, I literally drew a table on the page
showing like these different things did this happen? And just
just comparing the things that I read. So, like, my
my notebook is the book that you believe is true.
And it sounds like you're saying, well, I need more
time to think about this. I don't think you do.

(01:22:49):
I think you can start right now by just asking yourself,
do you have a good reason to believe this God
exists in the first place? That I think that's a
great place to start, because if your reason for believing
is the Bible, you don't have a good reason to believe.

Speaker 7 (01:23:06):
The Bible is one of the reasons that I believe.

Speaker 1 (01:23:09):
Okay, what's another one is what's another one? What's the
best reason you believe that's the mode, like the biggest one.

Speaker 6 (01:23:19):
I would say, mm hmm. I would say that it
leads to the best life that one can live, because
Christianity does.

Speaker 7 (01:23:33):
Someone is actually.

Speaker 6 (01:23:36):
Well, yes, because in the Bible, and admittedly there are
many things in the Old Testament that you guys have
clearly you know, have issues with the you know, uh,
misogyny and the you know like things.

Speaker 1 (01:23:53):
I understand that sexual the whole thing, the.

Speaker 3 (01:24:00):
Right.

Speaker 6 (01:24:00):
So so I hear what you guys are saying there
right when I am all the things that the principles
that are found in the Bible on how to treat
your fellow man, you know, mostly in the in the
New Testament are timeless.

Speaker 7 (01:24:13):
And one of the.

Speaker 4 (01:24:14):
Well, if they're timeless, Dave, if they're time If they're timeless,
Where in the New Testament does it does it disapprove
of slavery? Like where where does it say that God
doesn't like slavery in that slavery shouldn't be a thing
that exists.

Speaker 6 (01:24:33):
So the definitions of slavery, that the definitions the Bible,
you don't want to do that, I believe, Dave, what
do you mean.

Speaker 1 (01:24:44):
You don't you don't want to go down the definitions
because that is something that like just I think we
can agree there's no good slavery, right.

Speaker 6 (01:24:57):
No good slavery?

Speaker 1 (01:24:59):
Yeah, can we agree on that?

Speaker 6 (01:25:01):
The going on what was going on in the Old Testament?
Well man, well yeah, okay, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:25:10):
What, just to cut like, Dave, I'm not trying to
be an asshole to you, I'm really not, but like
just to cut you off here and just just save
everybody some time. Right. The Bible is very clear in
Exodus and Leviticus that there are different rules for Hebrew
slaves and non Hebrew slaves. If they take a Hebrew slave,

(01:25:31):
then they're supposed to let them go after seven years,
and it's more of an indentured servitude sort of thing,
except if they come into slavery married, then they're able
to go out married as well. But if a man
is enslaved and you give him a wife and they
have children, his wife and children remain your slaves forever,
and if he wants to stay with them, he must

(01:25:52):
also agree to remain your slave forever. That's just for
Hebrew slaves. For non Hebrew slaves, where it specifically says
take slaves from the heathen among you, including the resident
aliens and all these things. For those people, they are
just slaves forever. It specifically tells you how hard you're
allowed to beat them, It specifically says that they are
your property to pass down to your children, that they

(01:26:13):
have no freedom like it's it is trying to pull
the bullshit apologetics thing of saying, well, it was different slavery.
I promise it is not, and it's not gonna work
out for you. So just can we agree that there's
no good slave, There is no kind of slavery that
is a pleasant or good or moral thing. Can we
just start with that and that way we don't have
to go down this whole thing like we incite the

(01:26:33):
verses to you, dude, but I don't think you want
it either. I agreed, Okay. So that's what John's question was.
Is there ever a point in the Bible where God,
even Jesus, says, hey, y'all don't own people. Does that
ever happen?

Speaker 7 (01:26:55):
Off the top of my head, I can't remember.

Speaker 1 (01:26:58):
That's because there isn't one. There's not there. There's plenty
of things about slaving or slaves obeying their masters, and
and they might get a portion of their peace in
heaven if they're Christian masters. But that's about it. There
are some things that some apologetics are some apologists like
to point to, like where people say, like, you know,
you should be kind to your bondsman, and be kind

(01:27:21):
to your slaves. They're still fucking slaves, and that's not
good enough for me. And you're saying that these are
timeless moral lessons. There are a couple like, you know,
love your neighbor, but literally every religion has that, and
also every philosophy that isn't a religion like Confucianism has
you know, treat your treat everybody who how you want
to be treated. Damn near every moral view in the

(01:27:44):
world that's come up with that one. So like, there's
nothing special about the Bible that separates it from other religions,
other dog trends, other ideologies, secular ideologies. Even there's nothing
good in the Bible or in Christianity that you can't
get without the baggage of this evil God and his

(01:28:07):
evil teachings, which again don't look anything like a divinely
inspired text full of wisdom, but do look exactly like
a bunch of shit that a bunch of Palestinian goat
herders wrote down two thousand years ago to help control
their society. That's what it looks like, and that's what
it is.

Speaker 7 (01:28:30):
I can see your perspective a lot there. I appreciate it, Like.

Speaker 6 (01:28:35):
If I'm being completely honest. Part of the reason why
I wanted to call into this show is because I
really wanted to see what it kind of, you know, basically.

Speaker 7 (01:28:44):
What you guys thought about about these types of things.

Speaker 6 (01:28:47):
I really wanted to understand, like these even things absolutely right.

Speaker 2 (01:28:52):
I love that.

Speaker 1 (01:28:53):
That is the point of this show. And I really
genuinely appreciate.

Speaker 6 (01:28:56):
You doing that, and I ask you more research and
I and I freely admit that.

Speaker 2 (01:29:05):
Yeah, no, And I hope you call back.

Speaker 1 (01:29:06):
I hope you call back, especially when when I'm on
I'm sure John would say the same. I've enjoyed this
conversation early because you're very honest about what you're saying.
I will ask you one more question then we're we
got to wrap up, but really quick. Last question, you
said that Christianity provides the best life or something along
those lines. I don't want to be straw manning you here.

(01:29:26):
But you said something along the lines that Christianity is
the best life. Yeah, how does that work out for
women and LGBT people.

Speaker 6 (01:29:41):
So there are definitely hot button topics for sure, But yeah,
I would.

Speaker 1 (01:29:47):
Historically not great in terms of like Christian populations.

Speaker 7 (01:29:51):
Historically not great. No, I agree, historically not great.

Speaker 6 (01:29:56):
I believe that the treatments, the interpretations of most with
the Bible and how women should be treated has been
grossly twisted. Uh, similar with LGBTQ and and them like
she like, the core lesson of Christianity is to love
my neighbor, and so it really is a thing of

(01:30:18):
you know, even if you don't agree with someone, you know,
like even if you don't think that what they're doing
is is good.

Speaker 7 (01:30:26):
And then I'm speaking specifically on.

Speaker 1 (01:30:27):
The LGBT side of this, I can all agree that
being a woman is not good. Right, Oh that's yeah,
stop at women, and so stop being.

Speaker 7 (01:30:42):
On the.

Speaker 6 (01:30:45):
Well yeah, so like on the women's on treating treatment
of women's side, the Bible.

Speaker 7 (01:30:54):
Is extremely clear that true.

Speaker 6 (01:30:57):
Men care for their wives and treat them with love
and respect.

Speaker 7 (01:31:02):
Now, it does state that men.

Speaker 6 (01:31:04):
Should be the leader of the family, the head of
the family, and that is a position that has been
twisted where instead of a head and a leader, they
decide that that means that they can be a despot
and a king, and that is wrong, and that is
a great tragedy that's.

Speaker 7 (01:31:26):
Attributed to Christianity when there are abusive husbands.

Speaker 1 (01:31:31):
And that right there, I think that's I think that's
where we're going to leave it. I think that's what
we're going to leave it, because it is the end of
the show. But I want to tell you that is
yet another area that I would encourage you to do
more research in what the Bible actually says, because what
the Bible actually says about women, what it actually says
about wives and where you can get them and how
you can treat them, certainly doesn't say that a true

(01:31:54):
good man would be respectful. It's very very much not that.
So I think that's the next thing you should look into.
And I think that you should call us back sometime.
John and I also host other shows all over the
internet if you want to find us wherever. Would love
to talk to you some more. But yeah, we I
don't think your God is real, Dave, And if he is,
he's an asshole, and I want to talk to you

(01:32:15):
about it more whenever you have the time.

Speaker 6 (01:32:19):
Well, you know, I'm sure that clip of me saying
I don't recall God is gonna recall.

Speaker 7 (01:32:23):
Requiring human sacrifice is going to go viral. So y'all
enjoyed that one.

Speaker 1 (01:32:28):
I don't make the clips. I don't make the clips.
I don't know if our clip makers are that cruel,
but I can't control it, so if it happens, I'm sorry. Yeah,
but if it's any consolation I have made, If it's
any consolation, I have made similar mistakes literally my entire career.
Don't worry about it.

Speaker 7 (01:32:49):
Yeah, but all right, thanks, all right, thanks.

Speaker 2 (01:32:53):
So much, David, take care see Dave bte.

Speaker 1 (01:32:58):
Uh you know what, can somebody be mean so we
can have somebody to screen.

Speaker 2 (01:33:04):
It's been a pleasant show.

Speaker 1 (01:33:06):
It's been a delight, which I think to take three
calls and it was just awesome the whole time.

Speaker 4 (01:33:15):
I had a really good time today. Like I thought,
the calls were great. I do wish that there would
have been some more contentious callers, but you know, it's whatever.

Speaker 1 (01:33:24):
Uh, we've got a few, Oh my god, we got
some super chats here. I'm gonna try to crack through
a few of them really quickly. Bob sent a crazy face. Uh,
somebody looking all excited. Nero Mal sent, Happy Mother's Day, y'all.
Mama's out there are legendary fighters, protectors, artists, brilliant minds
and beautiful hearts. Brag about it. Miranda Renzberger said, have

(01:33:45):
you ever seen a human body Thomas's design ever? I've
dissected plenty, and let me tell you there's some issues
in there. Blind Limey get out of here, said, my
eyes are badly designed and wors built. I've got a
couple of cyber trucks in my face. Also consider the
scrow and have you seen one? It's eldridge. Eldritch is
a great way to describe the scrotum. Keller Communications said,

(01:34:07):
only donating to keep Miranda Rensburger company happy. Sunday Heathens
Omar kim Baia cool name said, thanks Aca for the show.
If any theists are watching and have a good argument
for God to please call in. We got some interesting
ones we're opening any good evidence. Nero Mile said only
ten percent about ten percent of people have NDEs. Only

(01:34:28):
about ten percent of NDEs happened in your death. That's
eight hundred million d NDEs among today's population. That's not
unlikely at all. Randy said, appreciate your endurance, patience, knowledge,
and especially to both of your families for sharing their
time with you, with all of us. I didn't understand
the process of that sentence, but I get it now.
Thank you, Thank you. Nero Male said. People trusting people

(01:34:54):
they see as good and moral. That's the oxytocin receptor
gene x t R gene. Correct me if I'm wrong
for us, I won't correct you, because that is I'm
I don't know, I'm not familiar with that. And metiator mediator,
what are they measuring with their meters? I am e trader.

(01:35:16):
Becoming an atheist, Uh makes one a better person as
atheist or not required to hate anybody, especially other religions,
homosexuals or trans people. Damn fucking right. Uh those are
all the things.

Speaker 3 (01:35:28):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (01:35:30):
Before we end, I just want to say say thanks
Secularity for hanging out and helping us out today. As
our backup. There is Oh boy, hey, oh my gosh.

Speaker 2 (01:35:39):
I was at that last one.

Speaker 8 (01:35:40):
I was I was screaming Jesus, I was screaming Jesus.

Speaker 2 (01:35:44):
He was like, God never requires human sacrifice. I'm like,
that's the whole point of the second half of the book.

Speaker 1 (01:35:49):
I mean, I appreciate him catching himself and that was
very cool of him.

Speaker 2 (01:35:54):
Now and it was it was you were You're both
are right.

Speaker 8 (01:35:57):
There were there were some really good calls where people
seemed willing to actually take in new information. And as always,
you guys, you guys are great about walking people through
it and giving them that that compassion when they need
it and holding motherfuckers accountable.

Speaker 1 (01:36:10):
When they need it. So it means a lot, means
a lot. I gotta do another show with you and
j Mike. We have like the deep philosophical talks and
anything like that, get into the meat of the stitu.

Speaker 8 (01:36:22):
We gotta yell at like like Greg or somebody, somebody
behind the scenes is in charge of that.

Speaker 1 (01:36:27):
Well well, well, everybody, everybody, come to Tulsa and I'll
make y' all some great gumbo and we'll just have
a great show here in my studio. Was run through
the whole It'll be great, awesome time. Uh with that, everybody,
thanks so much tuning in. This has been the atheist
experience the most calm show ever produced on this channel. Uh,

(01:36:49):
thank you all so much for watching. Thank you so
much for our crew, Thanks so much with the people
in chat. Thank you so much to our callers. Thanks
so much to our mods and our call screeners. And
thank you to Elliott for hanging out. Thank you to
John for being my co host today. I don't even
know how to end it. Thanks so much everybody having
also rest today.

Speaker 7 (01:37:05):
By day.

Speaker 8 (01:37:10):
To start alby y, stop questioning the bullshit everyone around you.

Speaker 1 (01:37:18):
You buys the ship, setting up your walk, don't.

Speaker 6 (01:37:26):
Ellen, Ellen, Will David.

Speaker 5 (01:37:30):
Of your.

Speaker 2 (01:37:50):
Watch Talking than Live Sundays at one pm Central. Visit
tiny dot c c slash y T t H and
call into the show at five one two nine two
four two, or connect to the show online at tiny
dot c c slash call th

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