Episode 194 - Go to Therapy

Join Vicky and Rachel as we explore the murky underworld of literary crime. This episode highlights the surprising criminal activities of two authors, proving that real life can be far more dramatic than any novel.

You can check out The Vocal Fries Podcast here!

Research links below!


Oxygen - "Jack Unterweger Passed Himself Off As a Reformed Criminal, Then Killed Many More Victims"
Independent - "Murderer's 'final freedom': The bizarre life of Jack Unterweger, poet and killer of prostitutes, ends at his own hand"
The Guardian - "John Malkovich brings serial killer Jack Unterweger back to life on Vienna stage"
Los Angeles Times - "Austrian Slayer of L.A. Prostitutes Kills Self"
"Entering Hades: The Double Life of a Serial Killer" by John Leake

BBC - "Anne Perry: Murderer turned crime writer dies aged 84"
Los Angeles Times - "Anne Perry, teen murderer turned crime writer, dies at 84"
The Guardian - "'I was guilty. I did my time': Anne Perry, the novelist whose past caught up with her"
Sutjata Massey - "A Journey With Anne Perry"
NPR - "Remembering historical crime novelist Anne Perry"
Daily Mail - "The best-selling crime novelist with a terrible secret: How Anne Perry helped her best friend batter her own mother to death with a brick in brutal murder that was turned into an Oscar-nominated film starring Kate Winslet"

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
Why they discovered upon their arrivals unspeakable. I'm not doing
they did want, Bob. It's the living. You gotta worry
about something.

Speaker 2 (00:26):
If I couldn't keep them there with me whole, at
least I felt that I could keep their skeletons. Hello
and welcome to the Bad Taste Crime Podcast. I'm Vicky,
I'm Rachel. I'm back again.

Speaker 1 (00:40):
Happy New Year, Happy New Year.

Speaker 2 (00:43):
Officially twenty twenty five. Oh my god, we are in
the full throes of Midwest winter.

Speaker 1 (00:49):
Yes. I woke up this morning.

Speaker 2 (00:51):
It was like we cannot win because we actually rescheduled
our last recording session and then everyone got sick. Yep,
And this morning I woke up and it's like virus snowing. Yeah,
it's snowing.

Speaker 1 (01:02):
Great a lot. Love that it is white outside. Love
that great way to ring in the new year. My
kids are mad at me. Why Arthur hates the snow.
He hates it. He doesn't like that it's like cold
and wet. So he dragged me over to the window
this morning. He's like, it's snowing. Oh, it's totally your fault.
I'm like, I didn't do it. I would turn it off.
The fountains. I'm like, I don't want to live here.

(01:24):
Is it like a sense or anything? Like? He just
doesn't like Yeah, because he didn't like the rain either.
He doesn't like the sound of it. It makes so
do they do they not? Is he not one to
go out and play in the snow? Correct? Oh? Interesting, Yeah,
he loves playing outside, but as soon as it's like
rainy or snowy, he's like, that's no, I'm not doing it.
He's just a princess. Yeah, grow you that's grow. That's

(01:46):
honestly more true than you even know. He is a princess.
Did you have a good holiday break? It was okay?
You know, it was okay. Little kids in winter equals sick.
You know. I've been like sick on an off for
like the entire time. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:02):
I've definitely managed to avoid all of that. It's the
benefits of living by yourself and being able to work
from home is like self containment.

Speaker 1 (02:11):
It's great.

Speaker 2 (02:11):
And I frankly was on vacation for like from work
for like two and a half weeks. Yeah, during the holidays,
so I really was not You were.

Speaker 1 (02:18):
Busy on your vacation though, Oh my gosh, there is
no rest for the Wicked the job thatives. I did
find out we're getting Martin Luther Kingday off this year though.
That's wowerful, pretty exciting, good because there is this stretch
at the beginning of the year for like three months
where there's just like no holidays, so you don't really
get any time off work unless you work for like
the state or the government or whatever.

Speaker 2 (02:36):
Right those bank holidays. Yeah, anyway, we are going to
move right along. We know what you guys are here for. Yeah,
it's not for us talking about the weather. And this
isn't the weather podcast. This is not the weather podcast.
It's the murder podcasts moving in from the South. So
if this is your first time listening a special twenty

(02:56):
twenty five, hello to you.

Speaker 1 (02:58):
Hi. But we are going to head over to the
newsroom watching today we had fifty.

Speaker 2 (03:17):
So this is like your first New year with us,
I think like, yeah, transition into you've actually been on
the show like almost a year. I think, yeah, it's
pretty cool, which is super cool all the time. So
one of the things that I like to do in
the new year, especially for our Illinois friends, is I
like to talk about some of the new laws that

(03:40):
are going into effect. And I don't know if this
is a new resource or if they've been around for
a long time, but there is this Illinois Municipal League
that just puts out a list of all the stuff.
Oh that's so helpful, which I feel like has been
hard to find, just like a complete list. And I'm
not I'm not going to go over everything because there's
but I do specifically like to look at the changes

(04:02):
in like crime, punishment and policing, like those kinds of things.
And there is a handful of things that are included
this year. So and again this is specific Illinois. So
one of the things not crime related, but we're officially
up to fifteen dollars an hour.

Speaker 1 (04:19):
Woah.

Speaker 2 (04:19):
And they passed the like honesty and pay thing where
they have to post you did see that the Act
in a reasonably accurate wage on any job posting for
jobs in Illinois or that will be worked in part
in Illinois, so like if the company is based in
Illinois but they're remote, like they have to post it

(04:40):
on their job postings.

Speaker 1 (04:41):
Good, which it is pretty cool. Let me get that's
crazy that that wasn't already a law. I know, Like
that's insane.

Speaker 2 (04:51):
Yeah, there that was. That was a big thing. It's
part of the Equal Pay Act. Yeah, there's a ton
of stuff, a ton of labor stuff wage. There was
some random things. I was looking through this last night. Okay,
this is that's animal adoption.

Speaker 1 (05:09):
Oh, here we go police officers. This one. I thought
it was really useful. I would say. So.

Speaker 2 (05:18):
It has to do with sexual assault evidence, and it
says that it provides that, except in certain medical examiner
or corner investigations, whenever a person's DNA profile is collected
due to the person being a victim of a crime
as identified by law enforcement, that specific profile collected in
conjunction with that criminal investigation shall not be entered into

(05:41):
any DNA database. Provides that nothing in this provision shall
be interpreted to contradict rules and regulations developed by the
FBI relating to national DNA and X system. That was
already a law. They were just taking victims DNA and
uploading it. Yeah, well, I don't know. Necessarily that's what

(06:03):
they were doing. But they did not have a protection
in place to prevent doing that. Wow, I can't say
they may have I don't. I actually don't know if
that's that's insane a problem or not.

Speaker 1 (06:13):
But wow.

Speaker 2 (06:14):
So and that's for again victims DNA. Obviously if it
is a criminal or like a suspect or whatever like that.

Speaker 1 (06:22):
All gets well.

Speaker 2 (06:23):
I don't like that one bit. Yeah. So one now
they can't do that anymore. There's a Crime Victim's Compensation
Act change allowing that. Oh amends the Juvenile Court Act
of nineteen eighty seven to provide that law enforcement agencies
may disclose law enforcement reports and records to the Attorney
General to comply with the Crime Victims Compensation Act. So

(06:46):
I think before they were having because it's juvenile records,
they were having issues maybe sending that over for that
purpose because it was like a protectives That makes sense.

Speaker 1 (06:58):
Just kind of like infrastructure making it easier. Yes, that
makes sense. Yeah. There was also a section in here
about autism training.

Speaker 2 (07:06):
Mm hmmm, which I thought was kind of I'm getting no, yes,
not for autistic people, but for police.

Speaker 1 (07:16):
Yeah, what do you mean, awe, that's a good thing.
I wanted training.

Speaker 2 (07:19):
So basically, it provides that the Illinois Law Enforcement Training
Standards Board shall develop or approve a course to assist
law enforcement officers in identifying and appropriately responding to individuals
with autism spectrum disorders.

Speaker 1 (07:33):
All good modifies what are looted. I agree.

Speaker 2 (07:39):
Yeah, so basically it is more of an advisory thing.
It does require them to provide the option to do that,
but it's also talking about providing extra resources and like
coming up with like a standard of review type thing.

Speaker 1 (07:54):
Good. That's pretty good. That is good.

Speaker 2 (07:56):
That's pretty solid. There's nothing too major this year. And
ill typically, I say, between Illinois and New York really
are kind of like the forefront of crime and punishment
policies stuff like that. Yeah, we make a lot of
big changes before a lot of other people.

Speaker 1 (08:13):
So I always like to take a what I said, okay, Illinois, Yeah,
so I also like to take a I love that
I look at some of this.

Speaker 2 (08:21):
Yeah, there was some stuff about the adult redeploy Illinois program,
which has to do with releasing offenders and changing the
word offenders to justice impacted individuals. That's like part of
the bail stuff too, like eliminating bail that all happened

(08:41):
last year. Okay, this is the one that I also
wanted to highlight as somebody who works in the legal world. Yeah,
I thought this was kind of interesting. Pre Trial Services department. Yeah,
basically we don't have that. So what it establishes in
the judicial branch of state government and to be known
as the Office of Statewide pre Trial Services, so basically

(09:07):
an office that will handle all of the pre trial
service stuff. They did not have a separate office. No,
and this is like if you need an attorney representation
like stuff like that, they.

Speaker 1 (09:19):
Now have an office for that. That's crazy.

Speaker 2 (09:22):
It's just it was just handled I think under like
the clerk's office maybe, but it.

Speaker 1 (09:26):
Was handled separate. Yes, it just go now we'll have
people focused on just that anyway. Yeah, that sounds like
it would have had a good idea from like a
long time ago. I agree.

Speaker 2 (09:36):
All of these are like, hey, we did it, and
everyone's like yeah, so just stuff to look at me,
be on the lookout for, be on the lookout. We
are going to move over to Netflix and kill which
is this week The Curious Case of an Italia Grace
Part three?

Speaker 1 (09:52):
Did you get Did you watch it? Watching it? You
said you were. You told me like a week ago
I had to virus. No, you literally like we're watching
it tonight and I was like, okay, done, all right,
and that I didn't Rachel.

Speaker 2 (10:07):
Okay, So for those who don't know, you should. It's crazy,
crazy story. Curio's Case of Natalia Grace begins as a
story of a young girl who was adopted from Ukraine
to this after an even larger like series of unfortunate events.
This family called the Barnetts, who were like awfuled her

(10:31):
and all of this abuse and there was some crazy
shit going on there. They didn't think she was actually
a child, they thought she was an adult. Yeah, there
were all these comparisons to the movie The Orphan. She's
really an adult pretending to be a child.

Speaker 1 (10:41):
Yeah. Oh, and also she's.

Speaker 2 (10:42):
A little person, right, So she has certain medical needs
that are not being met or taken care of, and
she kind of turns out she's actually a child, gets
reaged by the courts, etcetera, etcetera. All this crazy shit
happens season two. By that point, she had been adopted
by this family called the Man's Family and they are
like the cult people. Yes, so they're religious. Yeah, this

(11:07):
is something when we talked about season two that I
mentioned is they're the kind of like religious that does
like the laying of hands, speaking in tongues type stuff.
Theatrical Yeah, and they have like I don't know, like
ten or twelve adopted kids.

Speaker 1 (11:23):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (11:23):
It's great, yeah in that household, but she legally gets
adopted by these people, is living there. She says, she's
doing great. She's finally with a family that loves her.
And then, like the reveal of season two is this
phone call that production gets at the very end of
the season. They play it from the Manses. That's like,

(11:44):
she's evil, She's the devil.

Speaker 1 (11:47):
She's like doing this again, she needs blah blah blah
blah blah. She's like, we all eat together as also
get out.

Speaker 2 (11:55):
In season two, she like confronts her original adopted Did you.

Speaker 1 (12:01):
Not watch season two either? No? I thought you were
like totally caught up. No, I only watched season one.

Speaker 2 (12:05):
Oh okay, So in season two she like confronts Mike
I think that's name, Michael Barnett in an interview that
they recorded. It's it's wild as it's crazy, dude. Season
three what we have all been waiting for after that
phone call drop of season two. It's four parts, four
part series that also has now like gotten the spinoff

(12:28):
series series just called The Curious Case of and it's
like all the different cases. By the time this comes
out that will have been on air for it looks
really good, looks pretty good.

Speaker 1 (12:37):
Okay, so.

Speaker 2 (12:41):
There is some every I message you this. I was like,
everyone in this fucking.

Speaker 1 (12:45):
Story is weird. They are all weird.

Speaker 2 (12:49):
Everybody is like Tiger King level of like where would
you find all these except for this family that is
trying to help her. So she's living with the Mansa's.
They have now called production and been like, she's evil,
she needs to get out of the house. Production shows
up to start interviewing them, like a week later and
they're like, no, it's all good, we were just having

(13:09):
a moment. Well, turns out Natalia has started a relationship
with a man who lives in the UK whose name
is I think Neil, who has been telling her like
you're in a fucking cult. And then they started doing

(13:30):
an investigation to the Manses who seem to.

Speaker 1 (13:35):
Have some allegations.

Speaker 2 (13:36):
Of like child abuse and basically stealing the social Security
income from like the kids that they're adopting, because it
sounds like they might go specifically for like kids who
have a disability of something.

Speaker 1 (13:53):
Yeah, that's pretty com there.

Speaker 2 (13:56):
I mean, there's allegations of them hitting Natalia and that
they're actually controlling her.

Speaker 1 (14:01):
That's disgusting.

Speaker 2 (14:02):
And so when they're sitting on camera, the people who
are doing the interviewing are like, no, there's clearly because
Natalia is telling us one thing one day, and then
when she's sitting in front of the camera with the
Manses next to her, she is saying something, She's like, it's.

Speaker 1 (14:15):
All good, everything good, right, So then there's this.

Speaker 2 (14:20):
Whole thing going on. She's like being punished for having
this relationship with this guy Neil. She reaches out to
I don't know if you remember in season one, but
during before she had the Barnetts and she was like
being shopped around to these other families. There was that
one family that were yeah, that had like the same

(14:40):
type of dwarfism on.

Speaker 1 (14:41):
That she has. Yeah, what happened to those.

Speaker 2 (14:44):
And they wanted to adopt her and there was like
all of a sudden it was like no, you can't.
And they had spent a lot of time with her
or whatever. Okay, she reaches out to them, Natalia and
is like, I need your help. I need you just
like say basically they fly down while they drive they
drive down to wherever she was at, which is in

(15:04):
a different state, and to basically when they are at
a church service, excuses herself to go to the bathroom,
goes down to the partying lot, and they save her.

Speaker 1 (15:15):
They rescue they like rescue her. She gets in the
car and they drive off. Yeah tell yeah, well oh no.

Speaker 2 (15:22):
She also there is like this talk of her having rats,
which is like reacted. Oh it has to do really abandonments, yes, something,
but it is like a mental health yeah yeah. And
so she gets to the new house. Everything's like kind

(15:44):
of good, but then she's still like talking to what's
her name, Cynthia, I think her name is Cynthia Man's
maybe the mom that she her adopted mom talking to
and her adopted dad. They are still like the pays
on her Social Security. She's like getting sending them money
and like oh my god, you know, so it's clear

(16:05):
that it's this very controlling thing.

Speaker 1 (16:07):
Yeah, and like I don't even know.

Speaker 2 (16:10):
So they now are follow the struggle in the house
with her. Eventually some shit happens where she's like, no,
I'm fucking done. Oh it's the tax thing. All of
a sudden, they're like, well, mister taxman, is gonna come knocking,
and they have. She had made like thousands of dollars
from appearances and stuff that the Manses had taken and
like spent on this trailer in Tennessee or something. And anyway,

(16:35):
there comes.

Speaker 1 (16:36):
A breaking point where she's like, I'm fucking done with you.

Speaker 2 (16:38):
Good And it seems now she is progressing towards good things. Good,
I will say, but it is just like the wildest
story this poor girl. Yeah, you need to catch up
because it really just is insane. Yes, because frankly, I
think had things been done correctly in the beginning, like

(17:02):
she would not have developed some of these mental health
things that are now like fucking her up right basically right,
that's you know, there is like she definitely needs therapy.
Oh yeah, but she's got.

Speaker 1 (17:17):
To be right for that.

Speaker 2 (17:17):
Like that's like, you know, there's some like deprogramming that
has to happen, and like, I don't know, it is
just a wild, oh my god, wild story thoughts that
shit is crazy before we move on, that shit is right.
I have literally spent all day, all morning that we've
been here, like expl explaining plots to movies.

Speaker 1 (17:39):
So I'm sorry that one on too long. No, I
love it. She told us about the substance so good.
I love it. I trust one.

Speaker 2 (17:49):
I could do his synopsis in like ten minutes. But
she sound like, Okay, tell me about this before I
watch it. I don't know if I want to watch it. Yeah, yeah,
that and does the dog die? I have that bookmarked
on my phone.

Speaker 1 (17:58):
No dog's in that movie? Okay? Good? Perfect? No pets good.
I don't think anyway.

Speaker 2 (18:04):
This is that part of the show where I say
content may not be appropriate for all listeners. I will
definitely be talking about murder.

Speaker 1 (18:10):
Yep, murder in mine too, for sure.

Speaker 2 (18:12):
I don't know where this topic came to me from,
but I wanted to talk about writers.

Speaker 1 (18:19):
Yeah. Writers are just a different breed of people. No,
I'm kidding. I know some people who are writers. Did
you ever do like creative writing?

Speaker 2 (18:28):
I wanted to be a writer for a really long time.
I was originally an English major when I went into
college and wanted to teach, but then I didn't. I
was like, I'm not gonna like doing this for a
long time, so I switched to graphic design. But I
am definitely a reader yep. And there are definitely some
like tortured writers. Oh yeah out there, which is interesting

(18:52):
especially I finished writing this episode before watching The Whale.

Speaker 1 (18:57):
Oh yeah, talking about this earlier.

Speaker 2 (18:59):
And in that movie he's like an English teacher, like
a virtual English teacher, but there is this big emphasis
on writing and reconnecting with his daughter by getting her
to like write something. And I was like, damn, how
poignant that was not it was not like intentional. But anyway,
so we are going to talk about some writers who

(19:22):
were also criminals, sometimes before sometimes after.

Speaker 1 (19:26):
It's kind of.

Speaker 2 (19:27):
Sometimes during, Like I know, there's been cases of people
like writing books about the murders as they happen, or
like the christ As. Oh my god, that was after
the fact. Yep, he did the thing allegedly. He was
found not guilty, we have to say for but he
was civilly responsible.

Speaker 1 (19:49):
And by me, I mean he's done now, Okay, well
he still did that. You know.

Speaker 2 (19:54):
Well, I'm just saying, like I guess it doesn't really
matter anyway, that is to me.

Speaker 1 (19:58):
I want to talk about.

Speaker 2 (19:59):
I found this really interesting case about this guy named
Jack Unterweger.

Speaker 1 (20:03):
Have you ever heard of him before?

Speaker 2 (20:05):
No, this is I'm oh so excited wild. Okay, So
a lot of this takes place in Austria. That's what
I was gonna say. That's quite the last.

Speaker 1 (20:16):
Unterwiger.

Speaker 2 (20:17):
Oh my god, they're all like that loves a way.
Uderreger was born in August nineteen fifty to a Viennese
woman named Teresia. It's reported that Unterega was the product
of an affair that his mother had with an American
soldier who was like stationed over there because this was

(20:38):
in again in nineteen fifty, so like this they remained.
There was still some occupation after World War Two, like
the made over.

Speaker 1 (20:46):
There all year round.

Speaker 2 (20:47):
Yeah well yes, like serious occupant like yeah, so during
her pregnancy, Teresia was arrested and imprisoned for fraud. Oh,
Unterega was born shortly after her her release from okay, good,
so yeah he was not like born in prison. But
when he was three, Teresia was arrested again and Unterweger

(21:08):
was sent with his grandfather, who recruited the child to
help him steal farm animals. Oh so, my god, is
already it's almost like this poor from birth? Yeah, there
is already this had a chance.

Speaker 1 (21:21):
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (21:22):
He was sent to various healing foster homes. So there's that,
and this sort of like kickstarts his own life of crime.
He was arrested and convicted sixteen times for mostly theft
related crimes, including robbery, car theft, and fraud, all before
he was sixteen. There was also reports that Unterweger was

(21:44):
involved in some sort of like pimping related crimes, like.

Speaker 1 (21:48):
Sex work with the farm animals.

Speaker 2 (21:50):
Not no, they were they were human women, human women, boring,
but yeah, he apparently was pimping a little while. And
this all happens before it just escalates sort of into
full blooten murder.

Speaker 1 (22:08):
Oh great, yeah, so heads up? Oh great. This this escalation.

Speaker 2 (22:13):
Finally came to a head in December nineteen seventy four,
when Untereyer was driving with his girlfriend and the two
of them spotted eighteen year old Margaret Schaeffer walking and
invited her to hop in the car.

Speaker 1 (22:26):
For a ride.

Speaker 2 (22:29):
She got into the car. I can only assume she
saw another woman in the car and was.

Speaker 1 (22:33):
Like, yep, this is fine. Yep.

Speaker 2 (22:35):
Because again seventy four, like hitchhiking was not uncommon.

Speaker 1 (22:40):
No, it was totally common, but even still, I think
a single girl probably would have at least hesitated to
get in the car with just a guy. But since
the girl was that that sucks.

Speaker 2 (22:48):
Yeah, but it didn't take long before Untereger attacked Margaret, saying,
according to the Independent quote, at the moment of killing,
he had seen his mother reflected in Schaefer's face, and
out of rage for the way he had been abandoned,
he throttled her up with her bra end quote.

Speaker 1 (23:04):
Whatever, go to therapy, so like, don't piss me off.

Speaker 2 (23:08):
So upon entering the car, Unterweger punched Margaret in the
face and then tied her up and took her to
the woods. With the two of them like left the car.
The girlfriend stayed in the car and just waited for
them to come back now. According to Oxygen quote, his
girlfriend at the time would later say that when Unterweger
returned ten minutes later, he came back alone and carrying

(23:30):
a steel whip covered in blood and hair.

Speaker 1 (23:34):
What could this mean?

Speaker 2 (23:35):
Yeah, it's not clear because I didn't really see this
mentioned anywhere. It's not clear if like she went to police,
like saw that I went to police later, or like
how that happened. But he does get arrested yea and
convicted good of Margaret's murder, Oh my gosh, poor Margaret,
which got him a life sentence in nineteen seventy six.

(23:57):
Good okay, the end now, pie.

Speaker 1 (24:00):
Yeah right, I told you this was going to be
short now.

Speaker 2 (24:04):
Upon entering prison, Unterwigger was determined to become a reformed man.
He was like, I'm going in. I'm gonna like do
work on myself, self reflection. Margaret doesn't care what you do,
so he's like, I'm going to become a reformed man.
Despite being sent to what has been called the toughest

(24:26):
prison in Austria, Oh god, which I can only imagine,
Oh my god. Part of this included Unterwigger taking up writing,
specifically short stories, poems, and plays, but the thing that
would see the most critical success was an autobiography titled
Purgatory or the Trip to Prison Report of a Guilty Man.

(24:49):
In his book, Unterwigger discusses his life and crimes committed,
explaining the reason explaining his reason for murder was his
unresolved issues with his mother in a repeat cycle of abandonment.

Speaker 1 (25:03):
You're not buying into that at all. It's always mommy's fault.
I go to the you're just mad. Because you're a
mom and you're like, oh, my kids are going to
say about me. No, they're going to be like, that's
why I'm the president. My mommy inspired And here's my
brother vice president. My god, that would be so cute,
little matching suits P and VP. I mean, they're going

(25:25):
to be like in their thirties. But sure, I love it.

Speaker 2 (25:31):
So this book was released to the general public for
sale and found almost immediate success. Oh My critics saw
it as a prime example of prisoner rehabilitation. They were like,
look at this guy. He's done all this self reflecting,
Like he's totally rehabilitating, which is I mean, that's the

(25:53):
point of prison.

Speaker 1 (25:54):
It's supposed to be. It's supposed to be rehabilitation. But
I don't really see what him writing a book has
to do with anything. It's are you doing charity? Did
you give you money to her family? I don't think
that you did.

Speaker 2 (26:09):
A historian named Peter Humer told The Independent that quote
Unterwiger represented the great hope of intellectuals that through the
verbalization of problems you can somehow get to grips with them.
We wanted to believe him very badly. Um hm, So
they were like, look at models.

Speaker 1 (26:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (26:31):
Suddenly, while Unterwiger was serving his life sentence for murder,
the public at large outside of the prison truly believed
that he had been rehabilitated and he'd like done the
work to be rehabilitated. So in nineteen eighty five, there
was a huge push by the public for the Austrian
president to issue a pardon and allow Unterwiger to reintegrate

(26:53):
into society. Okay, a petition was circulated and garnered signatures
from many folks who were like famous writers and intellectuals.
They were like, absolutely, we can.

Speaker 1 (27:03):
Tell, oh dear.

Speaker 2 (27:06):
But when the petition was sent to the president at
the time, Rudolph Kershchlager Kershchlager, Yeah, he refused signing the
fifteen year minimum imposed by the courts. Okay, However, once
that fifteen years was up, it didn't really seem like
there was any issues, so Unterier was released in May

(27:28):
nineteen ninety. Now, obviously by this point his autobiography had
been out for a while.

Speaker 1 (27:33):
He had pretty much.

Speaker 2 (27:34):
Become successful while being in prison, so upon his release,
Untereger was somewhat of a celebrity. Wow, and so he
came out. His release was punctuated by a press conference
that he held before he started moving through like the
talk show circuit, and he was like doing interviews about
his book and specifically making commentary on prisoner rehabilitation. Like

(27:58):
he kind of became this expert having been a prisoner
and been rehabilitated. So he's like a celebrity, like straight
up celebrity. So he decided to cash in on this
newfound fame by transitioning from murderer to crime journalist, even
getting hired out by some of the top media outlets

(28:18):
in Austria.

Speaker 1 (28:19):
That's crazy. Yeah, they're like, who's got more expertise than
a literal murderer? So annoyed.

Speaker 2 (28:26):
It was also like he like he had been sentenced
and served his time. It's not like people were like
maybe he didn't do the murder, No, he fully fund
did it.

Speaker 1 (28:34):
But they were just like he's really sorry, yes, he's
so swy. Yeah it was an oopsie. Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (28:40):
Now the timing of this could not have been better either,
because all of a sudden, there was a trend of
women disappearing from the red light district in Vienna, and
police did not really seem to have any leads on
why or like who was doing this, So the news
outlet sent Luterweger to cover.

Speaker 1 (28:59):
The case and see what he could find out. Oh
my god.

Speaker 2 (29:02):
One of the first interviews he did was with a
top police official who said, quote, unfortunately it hasn't been
resolved successfully because despite many investigative efforts, we haven't made
any breakthrough so far end quote. According to Oxygen, Vienna
at the time actually had a very low crime rate,
So this like apparent serial murderer or a serial attacker

(29:27):
was like, we're a little worried about it. Is baffling
because it really just.

Speaker 1 (29:31):
Could this be who? Could it be? Who?

Speaker 2 (29:34):
Because also I'm pretty sure I don't know if it
was at this time. But over there, like their red
light districts and stuff are pretty regulated. Ye, Like yeah,
they're pretty like safe fish, you know, there's a lot
of trafficking.

Speaker 1 (29:45):
But yeah, well.

Speaker 2 (29:46):
Yes, yes, but like violent crime, I would say, you know, murder,
like straight up murder. Yeah, completely, Yeah, So they were like,
we don't know what the fuck's going on. Authorities would
finally have something to investigate when bodies began turning up,
starting with the discovery of twenty five year old Sane
Moitzel in May nineteen ninety one in some woods in Vienna.

(30:09):
Oh some woods, you say, some woods?

Speaker 1 (30:11):
So interesting, where have we seen this before?

Speaker 2 (30:15):
Weitzel was found partially hidden by some branches. They make
a point of being like, it was clear that whoever
was trying to hide her body was not necessarily trying
to hide her body because it was very like sparsely covered.

Speaker 1 (30:30):
Right. Yeah, he didn't like dig a grape.

Speaker 2 (30:32):
No, no, no, it was just like some extracistic he
just like chucked on her body.

Speaker 1 (30:36):
Right.

Speaker 2 (30:37):
So she was found partially hidden by some branches. She
was naked, having been strangled with her leotard, stockings and
bra Just three days later, police found another body, that
of twenty five year old Karen Araglue, also in the
woods and also having been strangled with her leotard. However,

(30:58):
they discovered Araglue after it had rained, which unfortunately washed
away any physical evidence that may have been there and
been helpful. Now long after, the bodies of thirty two
year old Regina prem and thirty five year old Sylvia
Zagler were discovered in similar circumstances.

Speaker 1 (31:18):
Yeah, okay.

Speaker 2 (31:20):
Meanwhile, Unterwager living his crime journalist's life is sent off
on a new assignment crime in Los Angeles, California. Oh no,
and the differences between like the US and European attitudes
towards sex work, which I'm actually like that could have

(31:41):
been really very interesting because it is like night and day. Yes, yes, so,
Unterwager was able to interview some police officers who allowed
him to go on a ride along of the various
red light districts in LA. This allowed him direct access
to the sex workers in the area, whom he interviewed
for their perspective on things while in While in LA,

(32:04):
you'll like this, Unter where you're stayed at the Siso
Hotel No way, which the true crime obsessed people will
know that this has been home. Like the Season hotel
is home to some really strange oh my gosh, including
notorious night Stock or Richard Ramirez having taken residence there

(32:25):
for a bit, and the mysterious death of Eliza Lamb.

Speaker 1 (32:29):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (32:31):
Season hotel is like, yeah, yeah, one of those places
they're thinking about reopening it. Well, it's soon, it's open,
but it is it's current. No, no, so it's it's open,
but it's not a hotel. It is like low income housing.

Speaker 1 (32:45):
That's right.

Speaker 2 (32:46):
Yeah, yeah, it's been that for a few years. It's
not it's not low income housing. There's a different term
for that because it's it's.

Speaker 1 (32:52):
Like a homeless shelter. Yes, but like yeah, so kind
of hostily. Yeah, okay, that makes sense. That's what they've
been using it for. So that's where he was saying.
But something weird started happening. Happening while Untereger was staying
in LA. Sex workers started disappearing out. Oh that is strange,
so weird, it's so weird.

Speaker 2 (33:14):
Police would discover the bodies of thirty five year old
Channon Exley, thirty three year old Irene Rondrigaz, and twenty
six year old Peggy Jean Booth during the summer of
nineteen ninety one while he was on Ala.

Speaker 1 (33:25):
All of the.

Speaker 2 (33:25):
Women had been strangled with their own bras in what
appeared to be the same not each time. This signal
to the police that the same person likely committed all
three of these murders and that they were looking for
a serial killer. Meanwhile, Unterweger finishes his reporting in LA
and travels back to Austria.

Speaker 1 (33:45):
They're like, guys, the murders stopped. Weird. It is such
a weird quisdom, so weird.

Speaker 2 (33:54):
So he fucks off back to Austria. By this time,
investigators they've been looking into these murders in Austria even
they even like pinpointed Unterweger as a possible suspect. Wow.
But he was placed under surveillance until he left for
the US, and police were like there was literally nothing. Yeah,

(34:14):
well like the surveillance they had before he left.

Speaker 1 (34:17):
Uh huh.

Speaker 2 (34:17):
They were like, there's nothing, oh, nothing connecting him as boring. Yeah,
he's just like doing regular life stuff. Yeah, So there
wasn't anything that they could arrest him for. By the
time he returned to Austria, another reporter, Hans Brightegger, had
started investigating a series of sex worker disappearances in Graz, Vienna,

(34:39):
which is like it was like one hundred and twenty
one hundred and sixty miles away, oh okay from where
he was at. The police had discovered the bodies of
thirty nine year old Brunhilda Masser, thirty nine year old
Heidi Hammerer, and thirty five year old Elfrida Shrimph, all
of which had been strangled to death. With their own bras.

(34:59):
Upon doing more research into these murders as well as
Unterwigger's past murder Breitagger saw the connection with the method
of strangling because it matched the one that he had
been convicted for, and he becomes convinced that these had
all been committed by the same person. Yes, so he
calls police and is like, hey, just so you know,

(35:23):
I found this stuff out for you. I wanted to
tell you you should be looking at Unterigger for these
murders in Gras. Mm hmm again this is from Oxygen quote.
Police and graz began canvassing the city's red light district
with a photo of Unterwigger and found three sex workers
who confirmed they'd seen him in the area. One woman
even had a harrowing story about meeting a man driving

(35:45):
a white Ford Mustang and wearing a white suit matching
Unterwigger's description, who told her he was a reporter, then
took her into the woods and handcuffed her, but just
as her terror mounted, he uncuffed her and drove her
back into town end quote you power struggle. He was
also known for like his wearing, especially in his interviews,

(36:05):
like wearing a white suit with a I think a
red carnation maybe was like his signature Miami look. Yeah,
the white Ford investag just like capsrash.

Speaker 1 (36:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (36:16):
So this story was almost exactly what had happened to
all of the other women, although they met obviously a
much more grim end. Right, there was another body that
had turned up in Prague, that of Blanca Butkova who
had been murdered with like the same modus operandi, right,

(36:38):
and her murder matched Untiger being in progress. Oh my god,
he's like, that was my vacation. Yeah, I was doing
writer stuff.

Speaker 1 (36:49):
Writer stuff, research research. So now police have enough evidence
to be able to at least issue a search warrant
and an arrest warrant for Utteger. But when they go to.

Speaker 2 (37:00):
His residence to arrest him, he and his teenage girlfriend
at the time, whose name was Bianca Marack, they had
already fled the country. They were like headed back for Miami, Florida.

Speaker 1 (37:12):
Oh like yeah, because he's wearing that white suit Miami.

Speaker 2 (37:15):
He was ready, he was ready. So they leave Vienna,
they go to or they leave Austria, they go to Miami, Florida.
When they arrived, they rent a room in South beach,
but they were a couple of weeks later tracked down
and captured by US Marshalls. Underweger is then extradited back
to Austria, where he would stand trial in croz in

(37:38):
April nineteen ninety four. Now, although they had spent tons
of time investigating and making all of these links between
the murders, the prosecution's case was largely circumstantial, Like, they
did not really have any physical evidence, right. The big
pieces of evidence they had were the method of killing
and some receipts that they had un covered during the

(38:01):
search of his home that proved he was near the
locations of the murders when they had okay, which is like,
I mean, it's not nothing, but it is not a
whole case, right, does not a whole case make.

Speaker 1 (38:13):
Right right right right right right right?

Speaker 2 (38:15):
So the only piece of physical evidence that they had
was a strand of hair that had been recovered from
his car that had been determined to belong to Blanca Batshakhova.
That's it, that's the only pace. Oh my gosh. And
Undrigger did take the stand in his own defense during

(38:36):
the trial, which some people were worried about because he
is like very charismatic. Obviously he's had a lot of
media training. He had put him in jail too.

Speaker 1 (38:47):
Do you take the stand on his own defense? Do
you remember? Yes? Oh God. The judge at the end
when he convicted him was like, it's really a shame
because you're solely charismatic in one of the god brat Lloyd.
They were all sucking his dick so stupid. Sorry, the
laws of the law. I wish I could do something
diff That's literally what it was. That's fucking literally what

(39:07):
it was. Crazy. He was not that smart.

Speaker 2 (39:10):
Well, ultimately in a six to two decision. Wow, yeah,
because you don't have to be unanimous in Austria. But
it was six to two, which is higher than I
would have assumed.

Speaker 1 (39:22):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (39:22):
The jury convicted Unterweyer of nine of the eleven murders.

Speaker 1 (39:27):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (39:28):
Two of the bodies had been decomposed enough that they
were not able to determine a cause of death. Although
it is still believed he's respectful right. Untereyer expressed that
he was innocent and he would be seeing an appeal.
He was like, guys, I don't know what I'm trying about.
I was just kind of reporting, yeah, research, It.

Speaker 1 (39:46):
Was all research. Yeah, I'm very hands on with my research.

Speaker 2 (39:49):
In June nineteen ninety two, Unterrayer was sentenced to life
in prison without the possibility of parole.

Speaker 1 (39:55):
Good.

Speaker 2 (39:56):
That evening, when he returned to graz Carlaw prison, Unteriger
hung himself using shoelaces and a cord from a pair
of tracksuit pants, using the same not that I had
used to commit all of the murder.

Speaker 1 (40:12):
You're an author, he's like the reader. I really love
this detail. Well. Good.

Speaker 2 (40:20):
This sad thing is that under Austrian law, his guilty
verdict isn't considered legally binding because he had expressed the
courts an intention to appeal, but died before he was
able to complete the appeals. So it's almost like not
because it wasn't confirmed by the Supreme Court. It's like
not a finalized version verdict.

Speaker 1 (40:41):
So technically it's not.

Speaker 2 (40:43):
Legally binding, and although it might not be, it's legally correct. Yeah,
his guilty verdict is generally accepted as factual. Yeah, I
would say. In total, Unteriger murdered eleven women in the
year following his release from prison for murder, and right
a book twelve in total and wild that's great.

Speaker 1 (41:04):
That is the story of That's a good one. What
a freak.

Speaker 2 (41:09):
I just can't believe that they successfully, like him writing
a book was enough to like successfully petition him to
get out of jail.

Speaker 1 (41:17):
The only they're like, it's a really good book. And
it wasn't even like accidental murder, you know what I mean.
It was like I did do that, but I was
really on it was having to be a deep But
she looked like, mom, oh my god, ew yeah, writers. Okay,

(41:48):
so you picked authors who committed crimes is an amazing topic.
There's more out there than you would. There's so many
more out there than you would, so many I'm surprised.
I was like, damn, that's a lot. It's a lot.
And like this case that I picked, honestly, I picked

(42:10):
it because I know it pretty well. But when I
looked into it, there was more that I didn't know.
So I was like, oh, very cool. But there are,
like we just said, there are lots of sketchy authors
who easily could have made the cut. Stephanie Meyer, author
of the Twilight series, may not have been charged with
any actual crimes, but did you know that Jacob is
her brother's name? Okay, that's disgusting. She cast him as

(42:32):
a romantic lead. That's really gross. And also he tried
to fuck that baby just because it's her brother's name.
That's weird.

Speaker 2 (42:39):
Jacob is a pretty normal name, but it's her brother's name.

Speaker 1 (42:42):
I'm just that's gross. I'm not listen. Maybe maybe maybe
I've been desensitized by watching too much Game of Thrones
could be in podcast. No, I will not know. Definitely,
that's really creepy. It is kind of really creepy. If

(43:04):
terrible writing was a crime, the nation's penitentiaries would be
chock full of the Stephanie Meyers, the Dan Brown's, the
James Frey Dan Brown yeh no, and the Sarah J. Mass.
But today's subject did something much worse than poor plot production,
and her terrible crime would follow her until the ends
of her days. I'm talking, of course, about Anne Perry.

(43:26):
When I texted her, she was like, you're basic. That's
what I said. That's that. For the record, I said,
I knew you were going to cover her. It's an
interesting I know, I know, and it's a movie. Now.
Even novice true crimers might already be aware of Anne
Perry's case, especially if you enjoy the films of Peter Jackson.
That's right. She was in Lord of the Rings. No,

(43:48):
I'm just kidding. Heavenly Creatures, released in nineteen ninety four.
Is it's really really good? It's really good, Okay. Peter
Jackson and co wrote it with his partner Fran Walsh,
and then he directed it. The film starred a young
Melanie Lynsky and a then unknown Kate Winslet before they

(44:11):
were both gigantic stars. Actually, I don't know who Melanie
Lynsky is. Yes, you do, yeah, look her up. I'm
trying to think. Of course, I'm like a huge fan
of her, and I'm like, what has she been in?
She's in that Yellow Jackets show. I never watched that.

Speaker 2 (44:27):
Oh I do know her, that's not Yeah.

Speaker 1 (44:31):
And she did some like Portlandia I think yes, I
think so too. And she's uh from New Zealand. I
think yes, she was like local. But she I love her.
She's like been acting consistently for like her whole life. Oh,
she's in Over the Garden Wall. Yes, yes, she's the bird. Yeah, okay, okay, yep,
got it. She's one of those where it's like when
you see her, it's like, oh, yeah, I've seen her

(44:52):
in five thousand things. Yes, but it's like maybe not
the name, and then like Kate Winslet obviously Titanic whatever.
Kate Winslet is so talented. I bought in that series
on the Mary Max. Oh that one too, that was
fair sounds really good.

Speaker 2 (45:08):
No, it's called the Chancellor.

Speaker 1 (45:12):
Oh, I know what to talk about? I think, so,
I know really talking about she I. I used to
have like audible uh when I worked when I was pregnant.
I had nothing to do all day, because you know
who works at work not I, So I had audible
and I would like sneak my headphone in my ear
and just listen to audiobooks all day. Oh sorry, I
hit the microphone. Hit the microphone. But I bought an

(45:36):
audiobook of the the children's book Matilda by Roldell, who
I have tattooed on my ankle, and I didn't know
that it was narrated by Kate Winslet. And she didn't
just read it, she did all of the voices. They
were so startlingly good that I didn't know it was
just her until like the end of chapter.

Speaker 2 (45:55):
There regime, that's what it is, really good.

Speaker 1 (46:00):
Chanceler sounded right, honestly close. She plays a chancellor in
the movie show that's why. Yeah, it's really good anyway,
funny off top, Kate wins look's amazing. The movie did
exceptionally well, with one reviewer even comparing its quality to
another film released the same year, which was Forrest Gump. Oh,
and it has a Yeah, it has a ninety four

(46:21):
percent Rotten Tomatoes, which honestly, I think is pretty well deserved.
Like it's a little slow in a couple of parts,
but it's I mean, it's Peter Jackson, who I don't
think you're a Lord of the Rings fan? Are you?
You do really Gord to the Rings?

Speaker 2 (46:32):
Okay, absolutely absolutely, I do like some Marvel.

Speaker 1 (46:40):
If you haven't seen the movie, I'll give you a
cute little synopsis, which is handy because, unlike a lot
of true crime films, it's actually not that different from
what happened in your life, which is nice. Yeah, it
takes place in New Zealand, so of course the scenery
and the accents are fantastic. Kate Winslet plays in English
teenager Juliette Hulme, who has moved from England to a

(47:04):
town called christ Church, New Zealand with her parents so
that her father could fill the rectory position at Canterbury
University College. I always feel really sorry for teenagers who
have to move, Like middle schoolers and teenagers, I feel
like that's the hardest time to move because like you've
already established yourself socially, Like I feel like there's there's

(47:27):
a trauma in that that I think it's overlooked a lot.
And this was not Juliette's first move as a child,
she had been diagnosed with tuberculosis, also traumatizing, and have
been shipped off to several places, including the Caribbean aisles,
with the hopes that the tropical climate would heal her,
which was like a pretty common belief during the times

(47:47):
of tuberculos. But like the weather right right, right, right,
right right, So she was like pretty destabilized when she
gets there. I get the feeling that when both her
mother and her father were going to live in New
Zealand with her, I think she kind of was like, Okay,

(48:08):
like I'm going to try to set down roots here
so that I don't have to leave again, Okay, you know. Yeah.
So Juliette meets and befriends fellow teenager Pauline Parker, and
it turns out they had a lot in common. They
both had suffered from childhood illnesses. Home as I said,
had TB and Parker had osteo mylitis, which I had

(48:29):
to google and it's bone fungus. That's horrible. That's horrible. Great.
Isn't that great?

Speaker 2 (48:37):
I don't want that bone fungus. Not like the idea
of fungus being on the inside of.

Speaker 1 (48:41):
Me me either, that's very like the last of us?
What are you gonna do? Yeah, I don't like that,
very resident evil. So they both had these debilitating conditions
at one point, which obviously bonded them together. I think
there's like a real like childhood lost kind of to this.
Now their friendship ended up getting kind of intense. The

(49:03):
girls formed an incredibly close bond in a very short
amount of time and only seemed to want to spend
time together, and they became somewhat reclusive. You see, the
girls not only shared a history of disease, but a
love of creative writing, which it was never really gone into.
But I can imagine, like with both osteomylitis and tuberculosis,
there's a lot of like you gotta lay around in bed.

(49:26):
What else are you going to do but dream? Yeah,
and read, you know. So it kind of makes sense
that they were into that. So that's cool that they
had that in comment. So they decided to start co
authoring books, plays, and screenplays together. They both spoke often
about their shared dream to when they were old enough,
moved to Los Angeles and start their lives as famous

(49:48):
authors and playwrights. Okay, but strangely, their shared fantasies seemed
to begin to come to life, kind of without their permission.
It seems they had created a second world, a sort
of secular heaven filled with adventure and promise. Now, it
started out as a fantasy, a place where they could

(50:09):
set their novels, but to the two girls it became
very real. Eventually they believed that they would go there
when they died, that it was a real place. They
developed their own personal religion to go with it. They
were both I mean, obviously, they lived in a town
called christ Church, Hello, and her dad was a record

(50:29):
I mean, christ Church is just the name of it,
I know, but it's a very conservative area, or it
was at the time, very religious, and her dad's a
rect so It's like they both grew up in this
Christianity and they rejected it, which was, you know, obviously
a huge deal at the time. The two even believed
that they could enter this parallel dimension through what they

(50:51):
called spiritual enlightenment. They kept journals detailing their so called
trips into this utopia, the place they deemed fourth world, which, like,
isn't that creative, to be honest, that's not that creative?
Given me, what year was this? This was seven? Yeah,
this is still the beginning of creative I know, some

(51:12):
slack I don't know. Now instead of looking at their
young daughters and thinking, hmmm, this shure looks like some
shared psychosis, maybe we should I know, you're.

Speaker 2 (51:24):
Talking about this, and I'm like, it's sounding very what
do they call that folly you do?

Speaker 1 (51:28):
Yeah? The like sounding yes, very much like that. And
that's very common with young offenders. It's more likely for
young offenders to latch onto somebody else because young people
crave that that's social not that we don't but like
and not that we're not young, but you no, I'm
not either. My phones make so much noise.

Speaker 2 (51:48):
Yeah, but I just think of those It was like
the sisters, Yeah, the twins. Yeah, that exactly, that's what
you're describing this. I believe that that's what was going.

Speaker 1 (52:00):
They were completely over reliant on each other and were
like very I don't go into it a lot because
like the timeline's a little weird, but like there were
periods where both of them would like be minorly like
hospitalized because they are personal believed to be sick, and
like when one would go to the hospital, the other
one would be like just destroyed. Yeah, and like you

(52:21):
left me like, well, girl, I was sick, like, you know,
very unhealthy toxic attachment, which makes sense because of what
they've all been through, but whatever, So you know, the
parents should have been like, maybe we should call a doctor,
but the parents were like, who cares about the fake heaven.
They've been astral traveling too, Let's focus on the real issue.
What if they've been lesbianing together? Oh no, yes, yeah

(52:46):
again right in the seventies, Like, oh my god. Both
of their parents were both of their families were mad
religious and not super into their daughters participating in the
gay agenda. Of course, I guess they were okay with
adultery because Juliette's mother had a big old affair, causing
her parents to seek a divorce. O shit. Her dad
also lost his job, and it always implied that he

(53:08):
might have been doing some fuck shit at work, not
like creepy shit, but like money shit. So her parents
were pretty much thinking they'd get the hell out of Dodge,
get divorced, get their daughter away from the even New
Zealand lesbian and start fresh back in jolly old England.
But that they would have sent Juliet away to South
Africa to live with relatives. Now they said this was

(53:30):
like because again it's like warm there the climate, But
it seems to me that they were punishing her and
being like, no, well you're not going to be a
lesbian in South Africa. It's not gonna happen. It's not
happening girl. Of course, the girls were devastated. Now, I
do have to say the true nature of their relationship
is not known, and both of them as adults have
denied that they were lesbians. And it definitely could have

(53:55):
been just a really intense trauma bond. I think both
girls obviously had huge attachment issues and they formed a
really intense bond which I think affected how they saw reality.
They sincerely thought that they could physically travel to the
fourth world and that when they died, they would be
there together forever. But as the resident bisexual here at

(54:16):
the true case. At the what are we talking? I
was reading my paper and talking at the same times,
like a Bad Taste the Bad Taste Crime podcast. I
think I'm an authority. If you want to go to
heaven and be with someone forever, you're gay. Sorry, you
guys are gay, which I love, love it, but like,

(54:37):
come on, why are you denying it? Did you have
you seen Black Mirror? I've seen like the first season
or two. There's an episode it's like one of the
more iconic ones. I think it's in season one called
San Junipero, where these two women it's like super complicated,
but they're physical bodies. I think they're like old and

(54:57):
have dementia. We're gonna get a ton of comments like
that's not really what I happened to episode I forgot, okay,
but well I know it was a long time ago. Girl,
But they're so they've uploaded their conscient Yeah. So they're
both these young, beautiful women in this kind of Sims
esque world that where it's always the eighties and it's beautiful,

(55:19):
very second life. Yes, and that song is playing Hea, Yeah,
and they're together forever and it's super nice because in
their life they couldn't be themselves and now they can,
so it's like really sweet. And they're lesbians in that. Yeah.
And every time I watch Heavenly Creatures or I think
about this case, I'm like, like, it's like that fucking

(55:40):
Black Mirror episode. So I believe that they were gay.
It doesn't really matter, but I believe that they were
gay anyway. So Juliette and Pauline were obviously super upset
about their impending separations, so they came up with the plan.
The plan was they both got to go to South
Africa the end okay, and also murder. How this plan

(56:01):
was formed is a mystery, but it's not too hard
to see how it may have come about. So Juliette's
parents were the one diddling around, being unemployed and having affairs,
but based on all accounts, she actually had a pretty
chill relationship with them. She did not hate her parents Okay. Pauline, however,
hated her mother, Anura Parker, who they saw as their

(56:23):
greatest obstacle to this life that they wanted to have.
The two had a difficult relationship and were known to
fight often and disagree on almost everything. She knew that,
like out of everyone, Anora would never allow her daughter
to live her best gay life in South Africa. So
the two little authors plotted away, and this is what
they come up with. Oh, this is the fifties, not

(56:46):
the seventies. Why did I say seventies? That was incorrect,
even makes more sense. Yeah, we're not super creative back then.
Right right on the afternoon whatever of June twenty second,
nineteen fifty four, the two girls were like, hey, Pauline's mom,
we love you and have nothing suspicious plan. Let's all

(57:07):
go have tea together. So they all three went to
the nearby city of Victoria Park and had tea and
desserts at a tea kiosk, which sounds so cute. Then
they were like, hell yeah, let's work off these biscuits
and scones with a refreshing afternoon walk. The tea place
was located nearby like a wood a scenic like wooded
area like a park, and the very trio walked along

(57:27):
the path seeing the sites, and the two sort of
lured her further and further.

Speaker 2 (57:32):
Into the woods. Oh, those damn woods. I know, it's
always about the woods.

Speaker 1 (57:36):
I know. I'm like, please, I like to hike. I
don't want to be fine in bodies. Yeah. Once they
were about four hundred and thirty feet from view, one
of the girls went, oopsie, I dropped this decorative stone
I have with me for some reason, clumsy me. Can
you pick it up? Mom? Because you know I have
like bone fungus. Yeah. She didn't say any of that,
but that's what I'm assuming. Okay, So her mom was like,

(57:58):
oh sure, bent over to recover the stone. The two
girls pulled out their makeshift murder weapon, a broken brick
inside of a stocking. Oh so like, okay, okay. They
took turns striking Honora in the head, which took over
twenty times. Oh my god. And later interviews they said,
we thought that we could just hit her once, but

(58:21):
they had to keep going until do you remember were
they like teenagers? Yes? At this point okay, they were
like fourteen fifty.

Speaker 2 (58:27):
That's like, I mean, you have kind of a skewed
versions of how things that's like a TV version of
how things work, right.

Speaker 1 (58:33):
And that's exactly like, yeah, I completely agree, because once
she was dead, instead of like running away together or
being like man, I don't know, I didn't go there.
They just went back to the tea kiosk and they're like,
my mom fell and they were like you're covered in blood.
Oh oh my god. So the police came and just

(58:54):
like walked down the path and they were like there
she is. Oh and there's a fucking brick in a
stock right there. Did you girls do it? And they're
like no, yeah. Uh so they confessed pretty cho It's
like in like instant guilt. Probably.

Speaker 2 (59:11):
I'm sure it was a instance of like seeing it
happen and being like, oh my god, have we.

Speaker 1 (59:17):
Done reality versus onreality? Completely? Yeah? Completely. I mean they
probably thought they could just go to their little dimension
the whole time. They're like, well who cares? Yeah? Why
am I not ascending yet? Right? Right? God. The same year,
nineteen fifty four, the two girls stood trial in christ
Church where they were both convicted of murder. Okay, now,

(59:38):
New Zealand law is kind of weird, and because this
is a minor case, a lot a lot of it
was just like they were convicted. I'm like, of what
they were just convicted I'm like, okay, but of what
kind of murder? You know? I wanted to know, like
first three, second degree, They didn't really have any of that.

Speaker 2 (59:53):
Places that are not the US are a lot more
protective of their juvenile right which defendants, which overall is good.

Speaker 1 (01:00:02):
I don't think.

Speaker 2 (01:00:02):
Yeah, I don't think that's a terrible thing because I mean,
obviously the opinion is eventually juvenile convicted juvenile defendants will
eventually get out of jail and like have to re
enter society.

Speaker 1 (01:00:14):
And the view is like they don't want.

Speaker 2 (01:00:16):
That following them around necessarily, right, because now you can
just get on Google and be like exactly, know exactly,
and that exact thing comes up in this too.

Speaker 1 (01:00:28):
But so they were just sentenced to jail with no
release date. Quote at his Majesty's pleasure. Yep, whatever the
fuck that means. Well, what it ended up meaning is
that the two girls each serve five years at separate
prisons before being released. Parker had to whose mother it was,
had to serve six months of parole afterwards, so she
had to stay in New Zealand. And then after that

(01:00:50):
she was like fuck this country, and she left. She
assumed a new identity which is another thing their government
will help them do, yes, which I also think is good.
She lived a very normal life. I think she worked
for a school. She's still alive. And yep, Juliet Home

(01:01:12):
had unconditional release, so she was able to leave the
country right after she got out of jail, and she
moved in with her father in Italy, also assuming a
new identity. Was she the one who was originally from
she was the English one? Yes? Yes? Now in the
movie the end of the movie is the judge like

(01:01:32):
ordering the two girls, like being like, you're growing to jail,
you're doing this and that, and you also have to
never contact each other again. Okay, In real life, there
was no such ruling. That's like a popular kind of
like misconception. When people talk about the case, they think
that's real. It's not. There was no such ruling. Nevertheless,
according to the New Zealand Post and according to the

(01:01:53):
two of them, they have never communicated. And I bet
they did it. I bet they never talked to each other. Well,
especially if you get out and change your identity, it's like, right,
it's like, how are you gonna find each other? Right?

Speaker 2 (01:02:03):
Yeah, unless you make a special effort to make sure
the other person knows right who your new self is.

Speaker 1 (01:02:09):
Right, doubt it. The film was super successful, as I
mentioned earlier, but one person did not like this movie,
and her name was Anne Perry. Yeah, I mentioned her earlier.
Anne was a successful novelist, having published several best sellers
in the mystery genre. Now, if you haven't figured it out,
Anne Perry is actually Juliet Home who had taken her
stepfather's last name and started going by Anne. Now you'd

(01:02:32):
so she didn't get a new identity, she just kind
of made her own. Okay. Now, you'd think that she
wouldn't like the film because it brought back painful memories.
You know, she doesn't want to see it. But in fact,
before the film, close to no one in her life
knew that Mormon mystery novelist Anne Perry was actually a
convicted murderer. Wait, she's Mormon. She she converted to Mormon. Okay, wow,

(01:02:57):
actually both women, not the other one Jesus Christ of
Letter Day Saints. That's a that's LDS is Mormon. Wait
no the other one Okay, maybe the the shit they're
a different Christian denomination. Okay. The ones who come to
your door a lot Jehovah's Witness. Yes, the other one

(01:03:18):
became a Jehovah's witness, Gotach. So I think it's very
interesting that they both rejected Christianity so heavily in their
youth and then as adults went back to it with
some of the weirdest forms of Christy rights not just
like Methodists like hanging out your super weird right, which
I'm like, ewe. So nobody in her life knew. She

(01:03:40):
never told anyone about her past and would fabricate details
of her life to keep her past a secret. She
actually only got exposed when the movie came out and
curious reporters tracked her down, okay, which is like super crazy.
So I am very like bleeding Heart when it comes

(01:04:00):
to young offenders most of the time, Like I'm like,
I'm always like your frontalone wasn't developed yet, you know,
like I think we should give him a chance. But her,
the way that she spoke to the press, like when
she was like, oh, because she was an established novelist.
She had written. At the time of her death, she
had published one hundred and two books. Okay, so she

(01:04:24):
was pretty prolific if anything. Yeah, yeah, she was pretty popular. Okay,
what kind of books did you? Mystery? And a lot
of her books had the interior theme of redemption, redemption
after you've done something wrong, which I'm like, okay, whatever.
This is a quote after her identity was revealed in

(01:04:45):
nineteen ninety four, and the press was like, girl, that
was you? You were kay? When's lit? And She's like,
you know that was me? She said, it seemed so unfair.
Everything I had worked to achieve is a decent member
of society was threatened, and once again my life was
being interrupted by someone else. Happened in court when as
a minor I wasn't allowed to speak, and I heard
all these lies being told, And now there was a
film and nobody had bothered to talk to me. I

(01:05:08):
knew nothing about it until the day before release. All
I could think of was that my life would fall
apart and that it might kill my mother. What about
the mother? You actually are right? Right? Like I just
felt like like I understand in a way, but I'm
like like, oh, I'm so sorry for what I've done.
It was a long time ago, I've I've made mistakes,

(01:05:30):
and it's like no one contacted you. Who's Anne Perry
Julie at home? How would they know it was you? Right?

Speaker 2 (01:05:37):
And also they don't have to get where she's coming
from in that she probably would not have seen the
same success if she hadn't.

Speaker 1 (01:05:45):
Like changed her name and assumed this new identity. But like, yeah, no,
I'm with you. I'm with you, there's no There were
other reports where she would say like no. I was like,
I'm like mad. It's almost like she's upset that somebody
else is cashing in on her. That's how I feel
almost exactly, Yeah, like where's my cut of the pie? Yep?

(01:06:10):
I can't have been doing that well exactly, I'm like whatever.
And in twenty seventeen, she had been living in like Scotland,
she moved to La to more effectively promote films based
on her novels. So I'm like, okay, girl, whatever, You're
obviously not that afraid of notoriety, righty r December twenty

(01:06:32):
twenty two, she had a heart attack and died. Wow
it was only three years ago. Oh it was actually
she had a heart attack in twenty twenty two and
died in twenty twenty three hospital, aged eighty four. Her novel,
which was the sixth in her Daniel Pitt series was
published the day after her death. Sorry, no, I know,

(01:06:55):
I know, Damn Okay, Like, girl, how can you be mad? Anyway?
It's wild, super wild. So I don't like her. I
get that you guys were young, I understand, but like
the way that she handled it, I honestly thought was
really gross.

Speaker 2 (01:07:08):
But then part of me is like, if you don't
want to explore that part of your life or being
a place where you can take accountability for it, don't do.

Speaker 1 (01:07:20):
Something that's gonna get you famous. Right, That's how I like,
you could have ended the other woman like worked for
a school or something like had a very low key
and you want to be famous. How is that going
to work out for you? It's not. And then when
people find out you're mad, right, I'm like, why are
you mad? You did it right, right, and like, oh
people were telling all these lies and I was allowed

(01:07:40):
to speak. Shut up. Anyway, It's a great movie. I
highly recommend checking it out. And also, if your kids
going into different realities, call a therapist. Oh yeah, for sure,
for sure. Oh my gosh, Well, lesbians, it's fine, but
if they're going into Narnia, don't let them do that well, before.

Speaker 2 (01:07:59):
You decided to become a writer. Why don't you check
out this podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:08:04):
We're the Vocal Fries. I'm Carrie and I'm Megan, and
we have a podcast about linguistic discrimination.

Speaker 2 (01:08:10):
We talk about language, not being a jerk, not judging
people for the way that they speak, and we try
to have a good time.

Speaker 1 (01:08:15):
We talk about things like vocal fry, swearing, Southern American English,
and prescriptive grammar. You can find us on iTunes or
your favorite podcast app.

Speaker 2 (01:08:25):
Well, that has been our show this week, our first
show of the new year, while first recording of the
new year.

Speaker 1 (01:08:31):
Right, good to be back. It's so good. It was
nice for the holidays, but it's good to be back
back in the saddle again. You're gonna say back in
the sack back, which sounds gross. Do you have any
final thoughts before we finish up? If you're gonna murder people,

(01:08:52):
maybe don't about it. First of all, don't Also don't
do that. But like, why are you going to be
like I'm famous and also a murderer? Yeah, not that silly, Yeah,
don't do that. Just don't do that. Don't tell any
of those things. If you enjoyed this, episode.

Speaker 2 (01:09:05):
You can find more just like this at bad Taste
podcast dot com. Our sound and editing is by Tiff Fulman.
Our music is by Jason Zackschewski The Enigma. This has
been the Bad Taste Crime podcast. We will see you
in two weeks. Goodbye bye. Young women left.

Speaker 1 (01:09:24):
Their bodies on the side along as the highway. Ev
I think it was as if the wave of people
washed over with town. We are all people were wearing
some form or another