Episode 212 - Love An Inquirer

No theme. No cohesion. Just two hosts, two wildly different crimes, and a whole lot of questions. Get ready for a cold-blooded cocktail of cases.

You can check out We're All Just Pretending here!

Research links below!

6abc Action News - "Hearing continues in Ellen Greenberg case as family pushes for autopsy review"
Deadline - "As Ellen Greenberg's Parents Vie To Reopen Case Of Her Suspicious Death, ABC News Studios, Elle & Dakota Fanning & Blackfin Investigate For Hulu"
CNN - "Despite 20 knife wounds and 11 bruises, Ellen Greenberg's death was ruled a suicide. The pathologist just changed his mind"
A&E - "Ellen Greenberg's Mysterious Death: Could Someone Be Capable of Stabbing Themselves 20 Times?"

Canada Unsolved - "MISSING: the Jack Family - 08/02/1989 - Prince George, B.C."
The Strand - "The vanishing Jack Family"
CBC - "Missing since 1989: Age-progressed photos show what Jack family might look like today"
The Province - "Vanishing Act"
CTV News - "'Tragic and haunting memory': B.C. family had been missing for 30 years"

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hm. Why they discovered upon their arrivals unspeakable. I'm not
doing they did want, Bob, it's the living. You gotta

(00:23):
worry about something. If I couldn't keep them there with
me whole, at least I felt that I could keep
their skeletons.

Speaker 2 (00:34):
Hello, and welcome to the Bad Taste Crime Podcast.

Speaker 1 (00:37):
I'm Rachel, I'm VICKI.

Speaker 2 (00:39):
How is that you all look sexy?

Speaker 1 (00:43):
I'm back again, Yes, back again. Be glad to see us. Yeah,
I'm sure I lisped so bad. I'm sure you guys
glad that. I doubt they could tell it. Probably just
sounds like a lot of US's that are hopefully getting
drawed up by these pot filters. I mean, don't don't
like test it. I'm sure there's people with the audio
shit that's like, oh my god, it's the world. You're lucky.

(01:05):
We finished eating our donuts before we have done this.

Speaker 2 (01:07):
God, Applesider Dot, that's the best part about fall is
when you start seeing Applesider donuts and like pumpkin treats
in the stores.

Speaker 1 (01:14):
We are in the full swing of fall. Yeah, by
the time this comes out, it's going to be approaching Halloween.
So stay safe out there, you know, yeah, because all
those people not putting drug in candy, because yeah, I
always love how they're just like people are gonna drug
your candy and we're like not, dude, drugs are expensive.

Speaker 2 (01:31):
Why would I get to make any sense?

Speaker 1 (01:34):
It does it? It does it? These are these are
all people who do not do drugs, right, you know
what I mean, Like they're not the ones.

Speaker 2 (01:42):
Yeah, I've talked to a million like old people about
that where they're like all of these it's crazy that
they make weed edibles in the shape of like regular candy,
like kids could get that. And I'm like, a just like,
just like what you said, it's very expensive. So I'm
not giving a kid my edible that I paid like
twelve dollars right right, I'm going to eat it and

(02:04):
then watch Adventure Time. Yes, but also b oh, hold on,
I forgot b.

Speaker 1 (02:11):
I was already I was you up a second option?

Speaker 2 (02:15):
Oh, b It's like they don't make it easy for
children to get I mean half the time those packages
are like so hard to open, right, I have to
take scissors to it every time.

Speaker 1 (02:24):
So I'm like, no kid could get this, it's like
so hard. Yeah, I agree, not that I speak from experience.
I agree. Sorry, my mom is messaging me about Bear's
numbers hi, and we're recording, so I have to take
care of this.

Speaker 2 (02:36):
Former guests of the podcast, former guests, beloved guest by
everybody who has heard her.

Speaker 1 (02:41):
Yes, sorry, was recording. She'll listen to this later and
feel very guilty. Yeah, okay. On that note, we are
gonna head over to the newsroom.

Speaker 2 (02:54):
Yeah, foot tails. Today we had fifty size of sixty
three way debate.

Speaker 3 (03:07):
We know.

Speaker 1 (03:09):
This week our news comes from the BBC. It is
oh the weirdest shit, is it? Okay? So Neil Hopper,
forty nine year old Neil Neil Hopper of Truro Cornwall
just got jailed for two years and eight months for
insurance fraud and possessing extreme pornography?

Speaker 2 (03:29):
What the hell is extreme pornography? Like BMX okay? Well, also,
what do these two things have to do with each other?
Another question?

Speaker 1 (03:39):
Another question?

Speaker 2 (03:39):
I was stuck on the like BMX okay.

Speaker 1 (03:42):
So he is an NHS vascular surgeon okay, and he okay,
this is like so wild, I don't even know where
to begin. So basically, in twenty nineteen, Hopper had below
knee amputation on both legs after a mysterious illness. Oh no,

(04:05):
but actually it wasn't a mysterious illness. It was self inflicted.
He used ice and dry ice to freeze his own
legs so that they had to be removed. No okay,
oh no ew oh god. So he had originally claimed

(04:26):
that they were a result of sepsis to the insurance companies,
which is where he was like, oh no my legs. Yeah,
with the which is where the insurance freud came in.
And in court he admitted to these two counts of fraud.
But part of this too was three counts of possessing
extreme pornography because he had quote a sexual interest in amputation.

(04:52):
Ah yeah, it says the article from the BBC says
the level of harm and three videos of body mutilation
which were the subject of the pornography charges, was exceptionally high.

Speaker 2 (05:04):
Oh he put his leg cutting off videos on like OnlyFans.

Speaker 1 (05:07):
I don't know if he put his own up or
if he was in possession of other amputation videos.

Speaker 3 (05:14):
Yo.

Speaker 2 (05:15):
I'm not kink shaman, but that's crazy.

Speaker 1 (05:18):
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, it's it just is like such
a weird Yeah. They said, what is this one of
the guys is said in court his motivations were a
combination of obsession with removing parts of his own body
and a sexual interest in doing so. Yeah. See, I
thought it when I first saw this, I thought that

(05:43):
because there are people who are into other people who
have already had amputations, like abuts right in that way,
like there's a whole porn category to vote into that.
But no, it sounds like this is the actual like
removing of the body part that is this part that's
causing sexual gratification, which is like again, yeah, okay, so

(06:06):
here it is. The extreme pornography offenses were connected to
videos of body mutilations that Hopper had purchased online and
did not include children. Did not include children, well that's.

Speaker 2 (06:17):
Good, Yes, I still don't want to see you cut
off your legs. Though.

Speaker 1 (06:19):
He bought three videos from a website that I will
not name, for ten pounds, ten pounds, and thirty five pounds, respectively,
showing men willingly having their genitals removed. He also exchanged
fifteen hundred messages with gustaveson let me see, Oh he's
the owner. He's the guy who ran the website about

(06:42):
his own lower leg amputations and how he had done it,
including asking how much dry ice he used. Wow, that
reminds me of that like old German case the can
Armandmivus the cannibal like invited the guy over and killed
and ate him. Yes, yeah, there's like this whole underground
commune of like, yeah, can actually almost covered that case today,

(07:03):
not that one. It might have had that one, or
it was one that was similar to that consensual cannibalism essentially. Yeah.
So gust Of Sen, the guy who on the website
is has actually been jailed for life with a minimum
term of twenty two years old or twenty two years
at the Old Bailey in twenty twenty four for leading
an extreme body modification ring.

Speaker 2 (07:24):
What a title.

Speaker 1 (07:25):
There's also talk about hopp or the guy who caught
off his own legs, suffering body dysmorphia since childhood and
he felt like his feet were an unwelcome extra and
a persisting, never ending discomfort, which is a thing, but
when it strays into the like sexual right and people
like encouraging you instead of being like wow, that certainly

(07:46):
sounds like something that maybe you should go get therapy.
And then after he had the amputations, like he got
this outpouring of support, which to him was like, Okay,
now it's even harder to tell them the truth because
everybody's like being so supportive of my feet. Yeah, it's
a whole thing. So anyway, Oh my god, weird story.

(08:07):
That's a strange story.

Speaker 2 (08:08):
I feel like that's a good one for like our
weird stories today. Yeah, absolutely, very weird. We're going to
move on to Netflix and kill where this week we
are talking about a very short little slice of life,
oh not really a slice of life, but short little
documentary called The Quilters on Netflix. It's about it's like

(08:30):
thirty thirty five minutes, but it is about a restorative
justice organization within the South Central Correctional Center in Saint Louis,
just south of Saint Louis, Okay, that has a program
that allows inmates to spend forty hours a week making quilts. Wow,

(08:51):
so they have a whole quilting room.

Speaker 1 (08:53):
It's run by this guy named Ricky who is serving
I believe he's serving a life sentence for murder.

Speaker 3 (09:00):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (09:00):
And he's an older guy. But these are all I
mean crimes of various uh. Quilt and they yeah, and
you do cute. It is required that you have a
completely clean record in prison, like you can't have any
like prison offenses in order to do this. In the

(09:21):
second you get one, you're taking off the project and
a lot of people don't like that because frankly, the
men who are doing this are they find this as
sort of a respite for the It gets them off
the cell blacks. I don't want to do something creative.
You know, Textiles is very cathartic work in my opinion,
And they do all of these. They're actually birthday quiltes

(09:42):
for foster kids and kids with disabilities, so they do
a lot for like kids with autism. They also do
they quilt weighted vests for autistic kids. Yeah, that is
so cool. So they'll get in you know, the kids
will send in description and like I'm into sports or

(10:03):
you know, my favorite color is purple. I really like butterfly.
There's one guy who like specializes. He's like, butterflies is
my thing. Like that's how I love the butterfly fabric.
And all of the fabric that they get is donated
from like local organizations. I just have like extra fabric. Well,
I think that's wonderful and wholesome. Yeah, it's a really
really cool program. I wanted to highlight this. Like I said,

(10:26):
it's only like thirty thirty five minutes, so it's very
very short. But I wanted to highlight this because we
don't often see positive things coming out of prisons, and
I think having things like restorative justice organizations in prisons
sho's very helpful and it's going to help their recidivism rate.
It teaches new skills. These are not all people that
are serving life for murder, right right. Some of them

(10:47):
are right, right, but some of them could be getting
out at some point, and.

Speaker 2 (10:51):
They're behaving themselves in the prison. That's keeping them out of.

Speaker 1 (10:53):
Trouble, keeping them out of trouble, teaching them a new skill,
allowing them to have some sort of creative because they
will like they'll get the descriptions from kids, but they
have complete control over the patterns and the colors. And Ricky,
the guy who has been doing it, takes these guys
in like takes them under his wing and teaches them

(11:14):
how to quilt and teaches them all the skills that
they might need.

Speaker 2 (11:18):
Love that.

Speaker 1 (11:19):
Yeah, it's it's a really really cool program. I wish
more persons had programs like this. Absolutely that's what it's
supposed to be about. Yeah, but it's a it's a
very cute little watch, real feel good Oh my god, Yeah,
I'm going to watch that. Yeah. Also, frankly for me
like seeing I love seeing men doing things that are

(11:41):
absolutely traditionally considered women's work for like women's projects, right,
love that at this Yeah, because it's also like quilting
especially is also very technical, yes, and you have to
be able to measure and count, and you know, they
want to get all of their stitches perfect and so
it's not easy how you stitch things. It appears differently

(12:03):
when you put all the panels together, and like, you know,
anybody can do anything. Really, it's what I'm getting at.
No gender, no gender, lax or anything. But it's a
very cute little documentary. It's called The Quilters. It's on Netflix.
If you need a short watch, watch it during dinner.
It's very feel good. It's not like a downer, but
also great that they're able to give back to the

(12:23):
community that they are. It's such a good cause. So
I love the weighted vests and it's so it's really
cool because they will get like pictures back of like
the kids with their quilts and stuff, and they have
a whole wall of just like letters and pictures and.

Speaker 2 (12:39):
It's so sweet, so sweet. I love that. I want
to order a quilt. Yeah, I know, well I want
a butterfly quill.

Speaker 1 (12:48):
You're not a child today anymore.

Speaker 2 (12:51):
I'll make my son write it.

Speaker 1 (12:52):
Act like a child. But girl, we in our thirties, rude,
I'm just saying I said we. I said we icy today.
I said spy. I am a little spicy today. But
I did say we. I included myself at that. You
did me the thirty five year old adult that watches cartoons. Well,
of course, who.

Speaker 2 (13:08):
Doesn't watch cartoons? Yes, I love cartoons.

Speaker 1 (13:11):
Anyway, Uh, this that part of the show we were
say content and I have bey appropriate for all listeners
is actually not terrible, but I know yours is a
lot more mine. Shall we say violence?

Speaker 2 (13:20):
Yeah, it's definitely. I go into uh talking about the
wounds that this person sustand in it might a little grizzly.
So if you're not into that, that's okay. We love you.
Go watch the Quilting Show and meet us next episode.

Speaker 1 (13:32):
Yes, so, Rachel, what did we decide to do today.
So we we figured this week we would do kind
of like a wild card. We've done them before, they
know what a wild card episode, so we had to
what a wild card? Yeah, because basically Rachel picked a
topic that I couldn't fit into.

Speaker 2 (13:52):
Yeah, it happened.

Speaker 1 (13:53):
It happens. No, No, it's happened. Sometimes it's hard to
surmise for me. Yeah. Yeah, it's a very like nuance.

Speaker 2 (14:02):
Yeah, because mine was like, because I was looking at
this particular case, which I'll go into further. It was
actually sent in as a request by a fan of
the show, by a listener, So I thought that, okay,
I'd cover.

Speaker 1 (14:14):
It nice, very nice. I totally lost my train of thought,
that's okay when you brought this up to me. Originally
these were supposed to be oh yeah episodes for the
recording session that we didn't do yep. And so you
had brought up this idea of like cases that you
don't agree with the outcome with yes, up as I'm
like four days posteaded me, and I was like, I

(14:36):
literally cannot think.

Speaker 2 (14:37):
Of anything complicated as post Please can't we do a.

Speaker 1 (14:40):
Wild card so that I can just yeah, get something
down so I'm excited to see what you pay. That's
what we did. Yes, yes, it'll be good. But you
are starting us off today.

Speaker 2 (14:49):
I'm starting yeah. Mine. So, like, like we were kind
of saying, my idea was because census was sent in
by a fan. I was like, okay, let me let
me look into this and see what what's going on.
And the reason they sent it to me is because
this is a case with some quite recent updates actually
as recent as this month.

Speaker 1 (15:09):
Woo nice.

Speaker 2 (15:11):
Nothing super satisfying, but like there's stuff happening still, which
is good. It's not cold, okay, which is good. Yeah,
but that's what I was like looking into because I
was like, what is it I want to cover this case?
What's the theme of this case? And I was like, well,
what they said happened didn't fucking happen.

Speaker 1 (15:27):
That's all I know. Yeah, that's all I know.

Speaker 2 (15:29):
Yeah, So I am here to tell you today about
the suspicious demise of Ellen Greenberg.

Speaker 1 (15:37):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (15:39):
So the reason I kind of went with like, I
don't agree. I feel like we're both very like healthily
skeptical girls.

Speaker 1 (15:45):
Yes, you know, I am definitely very you are I'm
very health the fully what did you say healthfully, healthfully skeptical.
That's me. That's two words that I would use to
describe me.

Speaker 2 (15:57):
You're definitely the Scully to my molder because we're both suspicious.
But I'm like, what if it's a ghost? Yeah, what
if it was not fucking that?

Speaker 1 (16:04):
So I've actually been watching the s Files recently, like
front to back, and it's so funny how accurate that
statement is. Like the more I watch it, I'm like, no,
this is that's definitely true. I am definitely the scully
yep of the group.

Speaker 2 (16:19):
And I'm the molder where I'm running off trying to
look for a big foot with boobs.

Speaker 1 (16:23):
Right righting away. Yeah, absolutely absolutely.

Speaker 2 (16:26):
But I think it's healthy to question what you're being told,
you know, because we've all seen cases that have gotten overturned.
I mean there's the organization the Innocence Project, where it
looks into like they were convicted. We thought they didn't
actually they didn't fucking do it.

Speaker 1 (16:42):
Yeah, And frankly, there's i mean just talking like forensically,
like there's been so many developments over the last twenty
five years. Yeah, things that we once took as truth
as fact are maybe not as black and white as
we originally thought.

Speaker 2 (16:58):
I'm bombed that like blood spatter turned out to not
be as definitive as I once thought it was.

Speaker 1 (17:02):
You know, I mean again, these are like tools. Yeah,
they're not same with my detector tests, same with hair samples,
same with you know what I mean, Like, these are tools,
but they are not going to be one of them.
Cannot confirming, right, Yeah, yeah, I totally agree, Yeah, totally agree.
So yeah, this is the when I read started reading

(17:25):
all the articles, I was like, nah, okay, I'm going
to present it to you guys and see what do
you think happens. Okay, but I can pretty much guarantee
that you're not going to be like, oh uh huh, they.

Speaker 2 (17:35):
Are saying the truth.

Speaker 1 (17:36):
Yeah no, no, no, no, no, okay, So the audience, yes,
that's bad interview technique.

Speaker 2 (17:42):
This was obvious, okay, okay, like when you hear the
cause of death, you'ren be like you're asking me leading questions.
Oh my god, law friend, Oh my god. So Ellen
Ray Greenberg was born in on twenty third, nineteen eighty three.

(18:02):
Her parents were Sandy and Josh Greenberg. She had a
pretty normal upbringing, a pretty I think like middle to
upper class. Nothing really of note. She went to Penn
State and got a degree in communications, and then she
went to another university, Temple University, to get her teaching degree.

Speaker 1 (18:25):
I know Temple. I got friends of Temple. Yeah, and she.

Speaker 2 (18:29):
Kind of realized that she had this natural gift with
children and she really wanted to help people. She was
this is something we'll learn during this is she was
a very kind and gentle and sweet person.

Speaker 1 (18:41):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (18:42):
So she started working at Juniata Park Academy in Philadelphia.
She was a first grade teacher there, Okay, and she
was living good. She had her good life. She lived
in an apartment with her fiance, who was named Ammuel Goldberg.

Speaker 1 (19:01):
Okay, so she's just like, you know, live in our little.

Speaker 2 (19:02):
Teacher like sure. So in twenty eleven, she comes home
from work. There was actually kind of like a It
was in the end of January. And I know that
like Philadelphia is like kind of cold, but it was
kind of like a freak blizzard.

Speaker 1 (19:17):
Yeah. I feel like they actually do not get as
cold as we do here. They might make some of it,
but they're much hotter in the summers than I would
have expected.

Speaker 2 (19:25):
That's true.

Speaker 1 (19:26):
And the snow in the winters is not as bad,
like because it's still so sunny, Like it'll be there
and then melt by the afternoon. Maybe I'll move there. Yeah,
I know, I mean people would people that we know
would probably argue with you. Yeah, I mean, Philly's fine.
Philly's fine. Yeah. I just like it not being that cold.
Yeah that's sexy. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (19:43):
But there was a like freak blizzard, so she had
to go home like a little early, and like went
straight to her apartment, probably about to bundle in and
have a cup of hot cocoa. You know, everything's chill.
Oh yeah, but then the police get a call. The
local police get a call on the phone. Is her fiance,
Samuel Goldberg. So he went he had returned from the gym.

(20:06):
He had gone to the gym, and then he tried
to get the door open and he couldn't open it
the door to their apartment. So he was trying to
to like bash the door down.

Speaker 1 (20:15):
He was trying.

Speaker 2 (20:16):
He was texting her, calling her, girl, come open the door.
I'm locked out, And he said that he noticed that
the door was secured with a swing latch from the inside,
so like he could not he had a lot of
trouble knocking it down. Okay, so locked from the inside,
so he busts in, goes into the kitchen and finds

(20:37):
the unresponsive body of his fiance Ellen Greenberg. Now on
the phone call, obviously, he's like very distressed. You can
hear him on the phone call, like trying to break
down the door. He's like, I have security here with me.
We're trying to break down the door. And then he
breaks in. He's like, oh my god, there's just blood
all over the place. And he told because the dispatcher

(20:59):
is probably like what the hell is like, girl, what's
going on? Like, what's what's happening?

Speaker 1 (21:02):
What do you wear?

Speaker 2 (21:02):
She's on the floor, and he's like, he said, quote,
she stabbed herself. She fell on a knife. Okay, okay,
so like you know, if I were a dispatcher, I'd
be thinking, like, she's cutting celery and she accidentally cut
her arm. It happens to the best of us, you know,
But that was not the case she had. When like

(21:25):
medical examiners were able to medically examine her, they found
twenty stab wounds, including ten to her back, neck and
the back of her head. Okay, the knife it was
like a big ass It was a knife that she
had in the home. Okay, it was like a steak
knife or whatever. Okay, the knife was found like jutting

(21:48):
out of her chest. So it was just this like
horrible horror.

Speaker 1 (21:51):
Show, like a steak knife. Or was it like a
chef knife.

Speaker 2 (21:54):
It was just like a big ass knife, like a
big like choppy chip.

Speaker 3 (21:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (21:57):
Yeah, so maybe you're talking more like a chef, more
of a chef, that's true, Not like the big square ones,
but like the big, a big stabu one. Yeah, a
scary working one because I'm like a steak and if
probably would not have lived up to twenty.

Speaker 2 (22:10):
Right, And a lot of them were super deep. Like
I looked at the medical examiners, you know, they put
out that little paper that like they have the outline
of the body and they show where all of the
lacerations are. It was crazy the amount of stuff that
was like on the back of her head and neck.

Speaker 1 (22:28):
Okay, yikes.

Speaker 2 (22:31):
They also found as they were examining her body, you know,
they have to note everything, right, and they were like, boy,
she sure is covered in bruises. There were eleven bruises
of various size in various stages of healing on her
like right arm, her abdomen, and her right leg. So
they were trying to figure out like, did this happen

(22:53):
if there was like a struggle maybe like yeah, whoever
it was like threw on the floor.

Speaker 1 (22:57):
Well, lacerations can cause bruising also, right, yeah, but she
was made you said various various stages of healing.

Speaker 2 (23:06):
Correct, So that's what they were because at first they
were like, oh, this is obviously from whatever happened, like
she fell down or whatever. But then they were like, well,
some of these came from before, so that's not possible.
So initially because of what her fiance had said, they
were like, oh, okay, it's a it's a suicide because

(23:26):
he said she fell on the knife. Right, But after
the autopsy, if he told them I just got home,
how right, how would he These are questions that are
important to ask, right right, Oh you'll see, Okay, it's okay,
you'll see. So the after the autopsy they were like no, no, no,
it's clearly a homicide. Right, So they only put it

(23:50):
as a suicide until the autopsy, and they were like,
we are treating this as a very obvious.

Speaker 1 (23:55):
Which is fair. I mean, that's not I don't want
to say that's that's not uncommon for them to be like,
she was in pretty bad shape.

Speaker 2 (24:04):
So they were trying to figure out. Unfortunately, the next day,
the Philadelphia Police Department was like, quote, the death of
Ellen Greenberg has not been ruled a homicide. Homicide. Investigators
are considering the manner of death as suspicious at this time.

Speaker 1 (24:22):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (24:23):
And then the medical examiner was like, oh, yeah, I've
actually gotten to look at it a little bit more
and it was probably a suicide.

Speaker 3 (24:29):
What so he.

Speaker 2 (24:30):
Changed his ruling.

Speaker 1 (24:32):
Okay, right, right, Okay.

Speaker 2 (24:36):
So when they do so, as they're like, obviously this
is the scene of the crime, they figured out that
she was obviously like killed there, not like killed somewhere
else in Brondre, you know what I mean. Like her
death whatever it was, her death occurred at the apartment.
They were like, let's lock this shit down. So they
sent cleaners to sanitize everything, to note everything, and normally

(24:58):
for that the people who are there at the house
are like detectives, they're crime scene cleaners, they're people involved
with the case. Someone who I'm not sure why he
was there was a prominent Pennsylvania judge named James Schwartzman. Like,
how is he connected to this case? Right, I'll tell you.

(25:19):
He is Goldberg's uncle. Oh okay, they had a very
close relationship. So on that day, when all of the
police were doing what they were supposed to be in
sanitizing and working the crime scene, Judge James Schwartzman entered
the apartment that day to retrieve quote, work and personal laptops,
credit cards, and phones belonging to both Goldberg and Greenberg.

Speaker 1 (25:45):
Okay, so he was like taking their shit. It's a
little sus Okay.

Speaker 2 (25:50):
So at later in January, the police were like, hey,
get that stuff back. Yeah, like he took that shit,
y you know, and like did who knows what with it?
Cleared everything?

Speaker 1 (26:00):
Is he a judge in Philadelphia? Yes, okay, okay, yep, yep.

Speaker 2 (26:05):
So in March there's a Philadelphia paper that's like the
Philadelphia Inquirer, which I love, I love an Inquirer. Okay,
they did like a whole expose, a front page story,
being like this does not make sense. They were like
suicide where. Yeah, there's this guy. His name is Cearl h. Weckt.

(26:30):
He is a forensic pathologist, based out of Pittsburgh. He
actually like is high up enough that he was consulted
for like the JFK assassination, And he is like a
questioner just like us, and has said about JFK that
there's no way it was a single bullet. You know,
he's just putting up theory. But he's like this high

(26:51):
up guy. Yeah, he said, quote it was strongly suspicious
of homicide and said he quote did not know how
they wrote this off as a suicide. This is a
name I don't know if maybe you'll recognize, because I
know that you're interested in this case. A scientist who
testified for the defense in the OJ Simpson trial. His
name's Henry Lee. He said, quote the number and types

(27:15):
of wounds and bloodstained patterns observed are consistent with a
homicide scene.

Speaker 1 (27:20):
Let me just double check that I'm thinking of the
right person. But I'm pretty sure yeay ly yeah, yeah,
but really yeah, yes, interesting guy. He also did some
stuff I think with Joan Benet. I believe he did too.

Speaker 2 (27:35):
So all of these like high up people on these
like quote unquote celebrity cases, like these big government cases
are speaking out and being like, hello, this did not happen.

Speaker 1 (27:46):
Yeah, he did John Benet, he did the Holicraft's Woodschipper murder.
He did that, which was apparently the first murder conviction
in Connecticut without a victim's body. That would be kind
of interesting. I've never heard of that because I got
mulched the O. J. Simpson and Lacy Peterson cases nine
to eleven forensic investigation DC sniper shootings and reinvestigated the

(28:10):
assassination of John F. Kennedy. Wow, he's been everywhere this guy.

Speaker 2 (28:15):
Wow, I love that.

Speaker 1 (28:18):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, he's I mean he's done other stuff.
He did some some analysis for Michael Peterson's trial. He
did some stuff on Kaylee Anthony. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah yeah,
Phil Spector, Gee Spector. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (28:33):
So he's got quite the rap sheet. Yea of like
speaking up at cases that other people also disagree with it.

Speaker 1 (28:39):
Yeah, I will say he is not without fault. There
a little controversy like one of the cases. But interesting guy,
interesting guy. We might have to come back and talk
about mister Henry Lee.

Speaker 2 (28:50):
I think we should. Yeah, but it's just interesting that
all of these people are like, no, no, so I
my thing with this when because I was in a
in a live on TikTok and a fan of the well.
I told about the podcast and she started listening and
then she messaged me it was really sweet and requested

(29:10):
me to do this case. When I first started looking
into it, I was like kind of wondering in my
brain because that, you know, I'm like, obviously, I don't
think that she killed herself, right, wound.

Speaker 1 (29:22):
And the fact that they are primarily in her back,
that's in the back of her head is like right.

Speaker 2 (29:28):
So I tried to look up. I was kind of
looking up, like, how many people who have chosen to
end their lives choose something so painful? I was like,
is that common?

Speaker 1 (29:40):
Yeah, no, it is not.

Speaker 2 (29:42):
Most of the time, they're just trying to end it quickly.

Speaker 1 (29:45):
And even if you're going to go a route like
something with a knife, right then you typically don't have
more than one wound.

Speaker 2 (29:54):
That's the thing. So Wayne k Ross, who is like
a detective, a local detective who was later hired by
Ellen's family, who obviously was like hello hello, said that
especially like because it's not unheard of for people to
stab themselves, right, it does happen, But he says most

(30:15):
of the time he was alluding to the fact that
people don't think it's as painful as it is, and
once you do it, you don't want to do it again.

Speaker 1 (30:23):
Exactly.

Speaker 2 (30:23):
There's our human brain, our little monkey brain is so
primed to avoid pain and discomfort, and especially like certain
areas of our body that are important. Right, he said,
it would have caused like the first stab into the
back of her head would have immediately given her a
traumatic brain injury. She probably wouldn't have been able to

(30:44):
be coordinated enough to continue to stab all over herself, right, right,
And for something that I do find and I'm aware
it's a sensitive subject, but with people who take their
own life, it just does seem like you're trying to
get it as quick as possible. You know, you don't
want to draw it out, Like why would you do

(31:06):
that when it's not a guaranteed death. People survive stab
wounds all the time, right, Like what, Like it's super.

Speaker 1 (31:12):
Weird and frankly, when you're especially when you're talking about
a woman, right, because women, it's messy. It's messy, and
women typically tend to go for the less pill messy
option exactly right, exactly.

Speaker 2 (31:26):
Because they don't want to leave something for someone to
clean up. They don't want to traumatize people. Like, it's
a generalization, but it's not an incorrectation at all. Yeah,
that's one of my favorite In Criminal Minds, they have
an episode like that where a guy they pull up
to the scene and a guy has like shot himself,
like really horribly with like a shotgun in there, so
he's already dead. And uh, someone was like, well, who's

(31:51):
the who's the victim?

Speaker 1 (31:51):
Is it a man or woman?

Speaker 2 (31:52):
They're like, well, it's obviously a man. They're like why
and they're like, because women don't want to upset people.
It would not be if we were getting called for
someone who just like hung themselves right then perhaps, but
something big and violent and awful like that.

Speaker 1 (32:05):
Yeah it's a guy. Yes, yeah, yeah, we're again it
is it's a general generalization, but not an incorrect one.
It's just based on fat.

Speaker 2 (32:12):
I mean, that's ther whole job the behavioral analysis unit.
They're supposed to work with generalizations, but like, it is
quite the thing. And she was such. She was very
beautiful and very sweet, like a sweet little first grade teacher.
She's gonna stab herself in the head a million No,
I know, I disagree I know, so he thinks it
would not be possible. So in the original medical report

(32:37):
they consulted a very esteemed neuropathologist named doctor Lucy Bally
and Rourke Adams. So in the original medical stuff she
had determined because his the guy was Dwayne k Ross,
who was like, there these wounds like would have caused
her to lose motor skills, She would have been in

(33:00):
immense pain, she probably would not have stabed herself again.
And he was like, all of these wounds are consistent
with that where she wouldn't have been able to keep
going if it was her. So Lucy came out and
said that there was no such wound like that. She
was like, no, she would have been able to keep
doing it. But then seven years later, like a paper

(33:20):
because again this is picking up steam and her family
has been relentless, which is incredible. They went to her
and were like, hey, why did you say there was
no such wound And she was like, I didn't quote,
I have no recollection of such a case. So she
was like, I don't know, I've never heard of that.
She's like, I would conclude that I did not see
the specimen in question, although there is a remote possibility

(33:42):
that it was shown to me. Again, this is a
forensic pathologist. I don't think that she's over her dinner
table being like, eh, yeah, not a determining wound. Why
would she put out a statement like that that's so determinate?
You know, she wouldn't And she said she wouldn't. She
was like, I never consulted on that case, Like, what
the hell?

Speaker 1 (34:01):
Weird?

Speaker 2 (34:02):
The newspaper examined the records and determined there was no bill, invoice,
or report from her.

Speaker 1 (34:09):
In this case.

Speaker 2 (34:10):
I was initially not an en She's like, I don't
remember that shit.

Speaker 1 (34:14):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (34:16):
The other thing was so people are lion. The other
thing was they were like, Okay, let's try to figure out, like,
because if this isn't a suicide, there had to have
been someone in there with her, right, how did they
get in because like the door was locked and all
this stuff. So they were like okay. So they were
talking to Goldberg, who had said on the police call

(34:37):
as well. He's like, I've got security here. We're trying
to bust this shit down.

Speaker 1 (34:41):
So they talked to.

Speaker 2 (34:42):
The manager of the apartment building and he was like
nah nah. The security guard. They talked to the security
guard and he's like, I wasn't there. Yeah, I didn't
do that, And you can't hear him on the phone call, right,
which you'd think you'd be able to hear him like
bashing the door down, But they he was not involve
And they were examining the latch because that was something

(35:04):
that Greenberg had said on the call.

Speaker 1 (35:06):
I was gonna ask was there even a latch there?
Because he called that out, But.

Speaker 2 (35:11):
That doesn't mean so he had said on the phone,
like she had to have locked it herself, like she
locked me out. When they talked to the manager, who
obviously probably helped order all these doors, he was like, no,
you can lock that latch from the outside, like it's
like a weird door, Like you can. He's like, this
is just the way that it works. You can't really
lock yourself in like that for security reasons.

Speaker 1 (35:31):
Right right.

Speaker 2 (35:32):
Huh hm.

Speaker 1 (35:33):
Well, Also you think too, if it's a latch like that,
that it would have been broken right by him busting down.

Speaker 2 (35:39):
You would think so, yeah, you would think so. So
they were trying to while they were figuring out like
the security guard like were you there or were you
not there? They analyzed the phone records, and it showed
that Goldberg had been on the phone with at least
two of his relatives while he was breaking the door down,
Like before he called nine one one, which he had

(36:00):
not shared. Okay, I wonder if one of those relatives
was the judge who took all the cell phones and laptops.

Speaker 1 (36:07):
Could be they didn't specify which which relatives, Okay, I
mean it could be. I'm also thinking too, if you
come upon something like that where you are not necessarily
thinking there's somebody dead inside, but you're like call somebody.

Speaker 2 (36:22):
A spare key, like come over, let me in my apartment,
or like, oh my god, this bitch like me.

Speaker 1 (36:27):
I mean, not saying I'm just giving alternative.

Speaker 2 (36:30):
No, I completely got it. Why I love you. Yeah, skeptical, Yeah,
but it was interesting that he never mentioned it, and
they were like, why were you calling people?

Speaker 1 (36:40):
Like, yeah, this is important, not mentioning it in the
nine one one call. But if they interviewed, which I
was trying. They interviewed him afterwards, correct, and.

Speaker 2 (36:47):
He was like, no, no, no, I just called you guys
and my friend the security guard.

Speaker 1 (36:50):
Yeah, I invented in my mind.

Speaker 2 (36:52):
So some of the so it kind of like went
coldish because they were like, what do we do, and
because there was helpful laptop and cell phone data because
the judge had taken and I'm assuming wiped that shit
through to the landfill or something. In October of twenty nineteen,
Ellen's parents filed a civil suit against the pathologists who

(37:16):
conducted the autopsy and the Medical Examiner's office. It says,
quote the suit seeks to change the manner of death
to homicide or undetermined.

Speaker 1 (37:27):
Okay, yeah, they did.

Speaker 2 (37:29):
So it's really cool that her parents are like really
into it because there's been all of these new types
of examinations, because they're calling up all these experts like
can you examine these files? So they did something that
I wasn't super familiar with photo grammar ty okay, which
is like the three D like imaging.

Speaker 1 (37:48):
So they did that shit in bones. Yeah yeah, yeah,
I see.

Speaker 2 (37:51):
To say, it's like a TV, but it's a real thing.
When she died, it wasn't a thing yet. But then
in twenty nineteen they were able to technology. She was
available to create a three D anatomical rendition of her wounds,
and they were like, there is no scientific way she
could have self inflicted all of these winds.

Speaker 1 (38:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (38:10):
Yeah, there is no goddamn way none. Now it's like
mad legal stuff. There's been so much going on. So
in twenty twenty the Philadelphia court, it said, allowed the
case to proceed past the motion to dismiss state the
civil case. Yes, okay, so they were like, okay, you
can go ahead, We'll start the trial in twenty twenty one.

(38:31):
In twenty twenty two, the Attorney General's office in Pennsylvania
reaffirmed that her death was a suicide. They were like, no,
it's a suicide, and her parents were like, incorrect, interesting, incorrect.
In August twenty twenty two, the District Attorney's office in

(38:51):
the area it's like Chester County is where it is
announced that it would officially reopen the investigation into.

Speaker 1 (38:59):
Her deaf Okay, what year was that?

Speaker 2 (39:01):
That was August twenty twenty two?

Speaker 1 (39:03):
Okay, Okay. I am only asking because are you familiar
with Larry Krasner.

Speaker 2 (39:12):
That sounds familiar, but I'm not sure.

Speaker 1 (39:14):
He's the current District Attorney of Philadelphia. But Krasner was
elected in I believe twenty twenty okay, and he is like, oh,
wildly progressive. Da he was formerly a civil rights attorney
and he became da very love him, absolutely love him.

(39:37):
And as you're talking about this, I'm thinking, I wonder
if this is something Krasner would pay to influence. But
if you're talking about the district's attorney's office in twenty
twenty two, you said, I'm wondering if he had a
hand in that, it him Maybe what I'm saying, and
that's I'm all, these are the things that I'm thinking
because I love Larry Krasner. I follow his sort of
election into this role and which was really great for Philadelphia.

(40:00):
But he is a very very very progressive amazing. So
he's great. He's great, But I was curious if he
was going to come up in this at all.

Speaker 2 (40:11):
It doesn't sound familiar, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Speaker 1 (40:13):
Christner's great.

Speaker 2 (40:14):
It's not a huge city. He's the best. Oh my god.
So when in twenty two when they were like, okay,
we'll reopen the investigation, this was shortly after the Pennsylvania
Attorney General's office had relinquished the case due to quote,

(40:35):
an appearance of conflict of interest. Oh no shit, very interesting,
no shit, because like, wow, your uncle's a judge.

Speaker 1 (40:42):
Yeah, get then that does not surprise me at all.
I'm glad they did that because also I don't think
there's as much as ethically fraught that maybe I don't
know that there's a lot of offices that would willingly
it's a tough relinquish.

Speaker 2 (40:59):
Right, because it's like all political Well they.

Speaker 1 (41:01):
Don't Frankly, I don't like to admit when they are
incorrect or have done.

Speaker 2 (41:05):
What I mean is like that's major for them to
be like, oh, there actually might have been like some
shady shit going on. So in twenty twenty four, the
Supreme Court of Pennsylvania granted an allowance of appeal so
that they could like challenge her cause of death. Then
in February twenty twenty five, because of the lawsuit by

(41:29):
her parents, they reached a settlement in which her death
would be like officially officially officially reinvestigated.

Speaker 1 (41:37):
Oh good, okay.

Speaker 2 (41:38):
Medical examiner, the one who had been like kind of
back and forth like is it a suicide?

Speaker 3 (41:42):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (41:42):
I might have been getting pressured. He wrote like a
big official, like sworn statement saying I do not agree
that it was a suicide. He's like, I got additional information.
I do not agree with this shit, and then, which
is like a little late buddy.

Speaker 1 (41:58):
Right, I'm sure they were like, there's I know, there's
part of me that's thinking, like, are you saying that now,
because it seems like the tides are turning the other way.

Speaker 2 (42:07):
And that's the thing because as recently as February twenty
twenty five, they keep talking to Osborne, this pathologist, and
he's like, no, no, no, this was all bungled and
horrible and we need to reopen the case. This is
clearly not a suicide. But unfortunately he is no longer
employed by the Medical Examiner's Office, so it doesn't carry
as much weight now. Apart from like all of that,

(42:33):
these are the other reasons why I think he killed
that girl allegedly allegedly. I think he did that allegedly allegedly.
I think he did that allegedly. Allegedly. He fucking did it.
So a lot of people were surprised because they seem
to be like the perfect couple. So a lot of people,
I think, like, especially people who knew them, would I know,

(42:54):
it's all wight.

Speaker 1 (42:54):
I'm sorry you can't hear this, but I'm rolling my
eyes and shaking my head.

Speaker 2 (42:58):
It should have made an audible noise, such a gyroll.
You never know, you never know what's going on. But
they seem to be like such a nice couple. She's
this like beautiful first grade teacher. It's like amazing. But
her parents, who obviously are very involved in trying to
get their daughter justice, like how they see it. Her

(43:20):
dad said that a month before the murder, because this
whole time they're engaged, they're planning their wedding, so a
lot of her time was spent like at the apartment,
like you know, doing invitations and planning all this shit
and booking. So it they were like, well, she couldn't
have they he couldn't have killed her because they were
so excited to get to get married, you know, she
was all She had called home. She had called her

(43:43):
parents and said I need to come home, and they
were trying to ask her like okay, yeah, you can
come home, like what's wrong, and she was like I
just have to come home. I have to come home,
and they were like okay, and she had kind of
like drawn back on it, but she was like I
think I'm gonna end up like coming home with you guys, you're.

Speaker 1 (44:01):
Like, okay, so obviously there's something rot.

Speaker 2 (44:04):
There was something going on and that was not like
her a big thing that her fiance would like lean on.
He hasn't spoken to the press like at all. But
the same thing that the case is focused on is
she did have She was diagnosed with general anxiety disorder.
She definitely had some depression. But it's like, you know

(44:24):
what causes anxiety and depression when your fiance is being
mean to you? Allegedly, so when they examined his phone,
like for the night of the incident, because he had said,
like I had been texting and calling her thinking maybe
she had fallen asleep and locked me out right, all
of his texts were so mean, like so mean. I

(44:46):
understand it's cold, but that's my other thing. It's a
blizzard so bad that they're sending a school teacher home,
which is something that they not do. And you go
to the gym. How'd you get there? How'd you get back?

Speaker 1 (44:57):
Ye?

Speaker 2 (44:57):
Weren't you real cold? I don't believe you, bitch. But
all of his texts to her were like open the
fucking door, bitch. You're gonna be sorry when I get
in there. You locked me out, I can't believe you
did that, where it's like if you thought that she
had accidentally fallen asleep. I understand being like hey girlma,
nuts is cold, please let me in, but like you
could call her like a bitch?

Speaker 1 (45:17):
Yeah, like not good.

Speaker 2 (45:20):
Not good. So as recently as September, there have been
more updates like similar to what I said in the
case where they're like, okay, we're moving forward with it.

Speaker 1 (45:32):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (45:34):
So I'm hoping that the case will pick up enough
momentum that they look into him further, because, like I said,
he hasn't spoken to the press like at all, so
I'm interested to see, you know, other things that have
gone on the quality of his character. Sure, because I'm
not saying it's an impossibility that maybe someone broke into

(45:54):
her apartment and killed her. I am saying it's an
impossibility that she did that to herself.

Speaker 1 (46:00):
Agree, I think that it is very, very unlikely that
it was a suicide.

Speaker 2 (46:06):
And the fact that he immediately said she fell on
the knife.

Speaker 1 (46:09):
Oh how did you know that? Yeah, you just got there,
and frankly, I mean you like someone killed him wife. Statistically,
if you are murdered, it is more likely than not
somebody that you know, somebody that you mean in this situation,
in the situation her fiance, you know, I think it

(46:32):
leans more that way. Yeah. Obviously he's not been charged
or convicted of anything. We should say that for legal Absolutely,
this is all alleged.

Speaker 2 (46:40):
This is all my opinion, but I mean his opinion.

Speaker 1 (46:43):
There are some some.

Speaker 2 (46:45):
Pretty educated people who have opinions in this case as well.
That leans towards my opinions.

Speaker 1 (46:49):
I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm not saying I don't
just I don't have getting sued money.

Speaker 2 (46:53):
No, I agree, that's why we're peppering in all these
cute little yes. Yes, So if you allegedly have any
alleged information about the alleged death of I will put
her family has like a whole thing where you can
contact them and leave information. So I will definitely leave
that in the show notes. Everyone who knew her, despite

(47:15):
mister I'm not saying anything, said that she was just
a wonderful, delightful teacher. She's sorely missed by her first
grade students, and I hope that we can lay her
to rest. Yeah, because I just don't think that justice
was served.

Speaker 1 (47:31):
D what a wild story. The end, the end, all right,

(47:52):
So I decided to cover something that is just kind
of on the weirder side. Love it love weird. Yeah,
and we are going to go up to Canada and
talk about the Jack family disappearance. So our story begins
with Ronald and Doreen Jack, both of which were members

(48:12):
of the Chislada Carrier Nation, okay, one of the indigenous
First Nations in Canada, which is crucial because and we
have talked about it many, many, many times on this
podcast about the missing and murdered huge Indigenous women in
Canada and coverage it deserves. Yes, although now it's gotten

(48:35):
a lot better.

Speaker 2 (48:35):
It's gotten coverage, but maybe not as much action, correct.

Speaker 1 (48:38):
You know, definitely, And that's not even that's just women.
Not to mention the like poverty rates of First Nations
people and treatment in general. The racism is strong in Canada,
I say, as an American where it's like a little

(48:59):
fucking what is the real recognized as real? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (49:03):
Yeah, the problem that you can see the problem.

Speaker 1 (49:05):
Yes, So there isn't too much background about either Ronald
or Doren okay, but there are reports from Dorean's sister
Maria that their early life was anything but idyllic. Right
did they grow up on there? Res? She eventually Okay,
So she says they were abandoned by their parents, abused

(49:27):
physically by their father, sexually abused by family friends, along
with poverty that was very common within the indigenous community.
All three of the sisters spent time at Lyg Le
Jacques Residential School as kids, so they were part of
the dential schools.

Speaker 2 (49:45):
Horrible, absolutely atrocious. Oh my god, that makes me so
mad to think about.

Speaker 1 (49:51):
But the school closed in nineteen seventy six and Doreen
was sent to a living Catholic high school, which is
maybe like a single step up from a residential school,
but it's not like a big step. It's like a
half a step. Yeah, So she went to the Catholic

(50:12):
high school. But while she was there, Doreen met Ronald
and the two began a romantic relationship. Okay, I get
the impression against she was in high school, so I
get the impression that they sort of split up a
little while, and during that time, Doreen actually had her
first son, Russell, at seventeen, and then after that the

(50:37):
Ronald and Doreene, the couple got back together okay, it
was like two years. Two years after that, this time
they moved in together, living with Ronald's parents. Ronald was
described as treating Russell her son like his own son.
They seemed incredibly happy together. They weren't like they were
happy living at Ronald's parents. It was yeah, it was

(50:59):
just like a very sweet family situation. Dorean and Ronald
had their own child, the second child, named Ryan, in
nineteen eighty five. Life was good like life seemed to
be going off right and the today no murder whatsoever, Nope, goodbye.
So life was going pretty good for the Chair family.

(51:20):
That is until the late nineteen eighties when things in
the family started this like downhill slide. Oh no. Started
with Ronald, who had been working at the sawmill. He
got a back injury. He ends up losing his job.
Oh no. This means that the Jack family had to
go on welfare and they decided to move to Prince

(51:42):
George in hopes of getting better job up. Okay, but
obviously the financial struggle started putting a lot of pressure
on the family unit Does and Doreen started to heavily drink,
sort of got a drinking problem. The two Doreen and
Doreene and Ronald started getting into like more physical altercations.

(52:05):
It just you know, it's it was not that was
not a thing when they first got together at the
relationship and starting their family. But you know, obviously I'm
not I'm not making excuses for abuse.

Speaker 2 (52:16):
No, but it does.

Speaker 1 (52:17):
It does happen. Yeah, she she started drinking. He's like
frustrated by being unemployed and like, yeah, so there were
reports of Ronald hitting Dorine. Awful, Yeah, don't hit yeah. Uh.
There are also reports that things have gotten so bad
that Ronald had to borrow an undisclosed amount of money
from like a third party. Oh. I didn't find any

(52:40):
specifics on that, but it sounded maybe kind of on
the shady side of things under and Doreen had to
steal cough medicine for the kids. No, yeah, real bummer.
On August first, nineteen eighty nine, Ronald decided to go
to the First Leader Pub, a bar that was like

(53:02):
right by their home, for a drink.

Speaker 2 (53:04):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (53:05):
While there, he was approached by an unidentified man who
said he had a job opportunity for both Ronald and
his wife. So nice, so great. The opportunity has just
falling in my lap, oh dear. This is from Canada Unsolved. Quote.
The man told Ronnie about a job opportunity for him
and his wife Dorene at a logging camp or ranch

(53:26):
in the klue Coles Lake area, about forty kilometers west
of Prince George past Bannesty. Ronnie was offered a job
bucking logs and Doreen was offered a position as a
cook's helper in the camp kitchen. Wow, the man told
Ronnie the camp even had a daycare for the couple's
two songs. How can the Jacks didn't have a car,

(53:48):
so the man offered to drive them to the job
site that night.

Speaker 2 (53:52):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (53:52):
End quote. He's like, let's go, yes, logs, which is like,
honestly the perfect They're like jobs for everyone, will take
care the kids, don't even worry, Like it'll be good. Yeah.
So he was really excited about this opportunity. It's like
the first opportunity, promising opportunity that came along finally some luck. Right,
So excited about the opportunity, Ronald called his brother around

(54:16):
eleven sixteen PM to tell him about the job. Approximately
two hours later, Ronald called his parents to tell them
they'd be at the camp for around two weeks, but
would be back before school started. Okay, now back at home.
He went back home, the family packed up any belongings
that they might need for the next few weeks, and
around one twenty one am Ronald, Dorwen, Russell, and Ryan

(54:40):
hopped into the stranger's vehicle to head to the job site. Unfortunately,
this is the last time any of them were seen. Yeah. Now,
obviously their family knew they were not going to hear
from them for a few weeks. They weren't nervous at first. No,
And when you go to like these logging camps there's
especially in the eighties, like yeah, yeah, there's no cell phone,

(55:01):
there's no cell phones, there's not really on site communication.

Speaker 2 (55:04):
Really pretty remote where all the big old trees are.

Speaker 1 (55:07):
Right, and it's like a camp that they set up
specifically for logging. So it's not it's not a stationary thing, like, yeah,
it is something built to sort of be picked up
and moved elsewhere, right, nomadic exactly. So several weeks went
by with no word, and the family finally decided to
report them missing. Yeah. Uh, So they reported them missing

(55:30):
to the police on August twenty fifth, nineteen eighty nine. Now,
during the initial investigation, police did a sweep of the
home and found that there were clothes, furniture, and school
records for the kids that were still left there. Oh shit,
so there was still stuff there. I mean, it wasn't
like they had packed everything up and expected to never
be coming back, right, And it didn't appear that anybody

(55:51):
had been in the home, okay since they had left, right,
it was pretty much And that was like pretty much
it as far as the investigation.

Speaker 2 (55:59):
Right go, They're like, well, yeah.

Speaker 1 (56:02):
There's obviously there have been allegations that a proper investigation
didn't happen thanks to their indigenous background, right, which would
not be surprising to me, but especially you know, especially
in the eighties. Outside of the initial reports and witness statements,
authorities did not really have that much to go on. Yeah.
Weirdly enough, the RCMP, the Royal Canadian mount To Police

(56:25):
incorrectly announced the family had been found in September nineteen
eighty nine, causing the investigation to be briefly closed. But
they hadn't been found.

Speaker 2 (56:38):
That's interesting.

Speaker 1 (56:39):
That's wild, isn't they. Yeah. I don't like that, dude,
meat either. Also, how do you correctly announce that stop
fucking why. The family, working with the Prince George Native
Friendship Center, worked on their own to fundraise for reward
money and bring more publicity to the case now. Unfortunately,

(57:04):
the investigation into the disappearance of the Jack family stalled
out for a full seven years before authorities received what
seems to be their only significant tip. On January twenty eighth,
nineteen ninety six, police received a phone call at eight
thirty three am from a man in Stony Creek, BC, saying, quote,

(57:26):
the family are buried in the south end of and
then there's a part that they couldn't really make out Ranch.

Speaker 2 (57:33):
No, that's the part I want you to make out.

Speaker 1 (57:35):
I know. No, the Jack family are buried in the
south end of Ranch.

Speaker 2 (57:39):
Wow. No, I don't like that.

Speaker 1 (57:42):
The call itself lasted about ten seconds and they were
unable to ask any questions before the caller hung up.
Police decided to publish pleas to the public in the
local newspaper, asking for the mysterious person to call again.
They're like, please call back, saying if they didn't, they
would release the recording to the public. The recording was

(58:05):
then sent to the University of British Columbia to be
analyzed for any clues as to who may have called.
They were able to track down track the call down
to a house in Vanderhof, which is just an interesting
name for its interesting wouldn't you want to live in
vander Hoof? I do want to live. They tracked it
down to a house in Vanderhof where a house party

(58:28):
had been taking place during the call, although it's unclear
if they ever identified the caller R Yeah, theither they
either didn't or they did and it didn't pan out
to anything substantial because it's not really not really reported right,
Oh my god. The most recent search by the RCMP

(58:50):
took place in twenty nineteen when they searched a property
to the south of vander Hoof on a First Nation reserve.
Although they utilized ground penetrating radar and other heavy equipment,
they were unable to turn up any evidence. Oh man,
the investigation.

Speaker 2 (59:07):
Where are they?

Speaker 1 (59:09):
Nobody knows? Nobody knows. The investigation has involved hundreds of interviews,
thousands of documents, in searches of multiple properties, with zero
trace of the Jack family to be found about. The
only thing that they have at the moment is a
description of the man who had originally offered the job

(59:29):
to Ronald. Witnesses from the First Leader pub described the
man as Caucasian, six foot to six six six tall,
six foot six inches six foot six inches. Thank you, listen,
there's too many sixes. I can't keep. I can't keep
the ball, can't keep trying. Yes, reddish brown hair and

(59:54):
a short, full beard and mustache. His hair was parted
on one side and went to the bottom of his ears.
He was thirty five to forty years old and around
two hundred to two hundred and seventy five pounds. Okay,
again this from Canada. Unsolved at the time he was
at the pub. Quote he was wearing a baseball cap
and a red a red checkered workshirt, faded blue jeans

(01:00:15):
and a waist length blue nylon jacket and work boots
with leather fringes over the toes.

Speaker 2 (01:00:20):
Sounds like every guy from Canada literally literally.

Speaker 1 (01:00:25):
Unfortunately, that's where our story ends. There has been no
trace of the Jack family. They kind of have just
disappeared because they didn't know the exact location of the
logging camp. You know who knows well, right exist If
you have any information on the whereabouts of the Jack

(01:00:45):
family or the man who had offered the job. Please
contact the Prince George RCMP at two five zero five
six one three three zero zero. You can also report
any tips to the Canadian Crime Stoppers at one eight
hundred to to tips or Canadian Crimestoppers dot org slash tips.

Speaker 2 (01:01:04):
I hope they're okay, Like my guts like they're not.
But I hope they're okay. Well, you I hope they
just moved away.

Speaker 1 (01:01:11):
You would assume in the day of social media and things,
that they would have heard that they were missing by
this point. Yeah, you would, and they do have. And
some of the links that will put in the show
notes they have like age progress photos because the kids
were like babies. They were like a little little you know,

(01:01:32):
like five six year old. No, who would be adults now,
So that breaks my heart.

Speaker 2 (01:01:40):
I hope there's some resolution for the family sometime.

Speaker 1 (01:01:42):
Yeah, I agree. I agree.

Speaker 2 (01:01:44):
That's a bummer.

Speaker 1 (01:01:45):
Let me end on a bummer.

Speaker 2 (01:01:46):
Yeah, I mean, it was a very interesting bummer.

Speaker 1 (01:01:50):
All right, Well, I guess, I mean I don't even
have a good joiner. Just check out the.

Speaker 3 (01:01:58):
Hi I'm laany most of the new podcast. We're all
just pretending. It's a podcast that has elements of Dear
Abby with a twist of postsecret. Every episode, I'll read
listener questions and provide advice and insight as a friend.
My own pod friends will even join in and offer
their advice on parenting relationships and even give you really

(01:02:20):
bad advice on purpose. Since we all have secrets to share.
There'll also be a segment focusing on letting the skeletons
out of your closet. If you're looking for advice or
want to share a secret, head to all Pretending pod
dot com and remember, we're all just pretending here, all right?

Speaker 1 (01:02:39):
That has been our podcast. It has our show. Would
do I get this? I don't even know anymore. I
don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:02:45):
We just were these are on these are I thought
we were just having a conversation.

Speaker 1 (01:02:48):
I was wondering why these are sitting here in front
of murphies. You're recording what I didn't agree? Illinoi's too
party consensate. No cut out the part where I talked
about my butt? Did you talk about your butt? Now?
I'm like, wait, did you actually talk about your butt?

Speaker 3 (01:03:02):
No?

Speaker 2 (01:03:02):
Because you're removed in in the recording that they're hearing.

Speaker 1 (01:03:05):
Now, Yeah, what are you talking about? Well, recording this recording? Okay, Uh,
do you have any final thoughts? Nope? Before Oh I'm surprised.

Speaker 2 (01:03:14):
Do you normally have something Canada is racist?

Speaker 1 (01:03:18):
Well, some of Canada, Yeah, some of Canada. It's probably
an equal amount as the United States.

Speaker 2 (01:03:24):
Oh yeah, I'm not. I'm the pot and the kettle.
But like, yes, that's horrible that they are. They get
away with that.

Speaker 1 (01:03:30):
Do better?

Speaker 2 (01:03:31):
Yeah, do better, Canada, Canada and America do better?

Speaker 1 (01:03:35):
All right?

Speaker 2 (01:03:35):
Well.

Speaker 1 (01:03:36):
Our sound and editing is by Tiffoeman. Our music is
by Jason Zakzchewsky, The You Enigma. This has been the
Bad Taste Crime podcast. We will actually I take it back,
take it back. We are taking our annual October break
to fully enjoy spooky season Breaktober. So you will have
episodes in October, but you will not have any episodes

(01:03:59):
in November. We will be back in December with brand
new episodes in time for the holidays. Yeah, we got
you for all of your holiday driving. Merry Christmas, so
we will see you in December. Yeah, oh my god,
this has been the Bad Taste Crime podcast. We'll see
you in December. Goodbye along the highway.

Speaker 3 (01:04:23):
Audience still it.

Speaker 2 (01:04:27):
Was as if the wave, the people washed over West
Town were all you were wearing, some form or another