Autopsy Report: Celtics & Cavaliers Collapse + Knicks vs Pacers ECF Preview

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
This is the Baseline, discussing the hot button topics of.

Speaker 2 (00:05):
The nb A.

Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome everybody, your tune to the Baseline. Cali Warrnt Shaw
discussing the hot button topics of the nb A very
very busy episode of the Baseline could be somber, could
be as what the Mexicans called the Day of the Dead.
But we're gonna put in some double work, man, because
a lot has happened in the last forty eight hours.

(00:27):
But as always, man, always great to do with my
right hand man, brother from another brother, my brother Warrant Shaw,
repping out of Fort Florida, Deville, Florida. What's good, mister Shaw?
How are you feeling? What was that movie? I think
it was our generation. It's called Flatliners? Is that that? That?
That real interesting? You know what I'm saying? Uh, noir type?

Speaker 2 (00:54):
Yeah, you know, it's it's always real somber. You know,
when you're in this line of work and then you
have to go and you know, bury somebody you love
and you know that day has come upon us, you
know here on the Baseline MBA Podcast, as our beloved
you know, is one of the teams that will be
autop seats. This this afternoon. So it's a really, really

(01:16):
somber note. But the job must be done, the show
must go on. You need to do the thing that
we would ordinarily do for any other team. Despite the
displeasure that I'm going to take it, I'm actually.

Speaker 1 (01:26):
Well, see you have level of displeasure for this, But
I actually am very intrigued, very intrigued, Like I am fascinated.
I it's one of like it's like one of those
mad villains. It's like, you know, I don't know if
I should feel bad, but I am fascinated on where
we might allow this to go because there's so many

(01:46):
different directions that could be taken from what transpired, and
I think one thing is definitely for certain Shaw the
Eastern Conference has proven to us yet again that you're
going to have more questions than answers about these teams
and the way that these teams were eliminated. So if

(02:09):
people are not cluing in, clearly our autopsy is going
to be covering the Boss and Celtics and the Cleveland Cavaliers,
no surprise there, But it's also going to elevate the
questions on the validity of how strong these teams are
because if you really think about it, sew in this generation,
I don't think you can honestly say that there is
a dynastic franchise in the making anytime soon. Now we

(02:35):
can deliberate between what's going to cause that, what's triggering that,
what the effect of that is. But I can honestly
say that when you look at the talent of the rosters,
it's hard for me to imagine that there is such
fragility and lack of sustainability in the evolution of greatness
in some of these teams that have been constructed. And

(02:58):
I don't know if it's because of the player themselves,
if it's the organization, or if it's because of what
other teams are doing in order to strategically counter the
style of play or the culture of how that team
operates within. Again, it's something that can extend itself on.
But if you want too legitimate test cases for us

(03:21):
to have to question whether or not there is another
run left in these teams if you kept them as is,
I challenge you to say whether or not that will
it will not be the case. And I think this
we're going to be speaking to in our edition of
the Baseline this week.

Speaker 2 (03:34):
Yeah, well, I mean, yeah, there's a lot of different
threads to kind of to pull on for both of
these teams, two of the elite teams in the Eastern
Conference in terms of record, and then what expectations were
going into the playoffs. And I think the playoffs themselves
are weird because, as I think you're indicating, the aspect
of truly billing dynasties is really hard and there's a

(03:54):
lot of reasons for that. I think primarily in the
case of Boston is going to be the aspect of
the finances. You end up being a second apron team.
You're paying X amount of dollars. Can you keep this
team together? You know when it's going to cost you
literally double and triple the actual salaries that you're paying
out just because of the punitive taxes that are involved
in there too. So Adam Silver's NBA is upon us,

(04:16):
as many on X have said, you know, parody is
here in the NBA in a very very real way.
And yeah, there's some conversation whether that's that's good or not.
But two to really struggling sorrys, two teams that really
struggle here in the second round are ultimately we're eliminated,
and as we're recording, we don't know the outcome of
a Game seven for the number one team in the NBA,
you know, with the Oklahoma City Thunder as well too, So

(04:36):
by the time this comes out, we will have that
answer whether or not they get to move on. But
really interesting that teams that were dominant in the regular
seasons are now kind of falling to the middle of
the pack, if you will, in terms of the regular season,
which also means maybe the regular season doesn't matter as
much as we thought it did. Yeah. Yeah, so a.

Speaker 1 (04:51):
Lot of interesting, you know what I'm saying, threads to
pull out. Very excited for us to be able to
kind of dig into that, unfortunately at the expense of
our team, you know, as one of those teams that
we're putting on the slab this week in the autopsy report.
And then also, you know, it's important, man, we got
to cover the Eastern Conference Finals, right right. The ECF
is now been set between the Indiana Pacers and the

(05:12):
New York Knicks, So we'll kind of give our perspective
on that and give our takes about who's going to
advance to the NBA Finals. As a representative of the
Eastern Conference, so a lot to get into. As always,
we appreciate you and yours for hopping on board with
us this week. Be sure to get on my manshaw
at the Warrenshaw and you can get at me at
game face lead to show Twitter handle at NBA Baseline
available in all the major platforms you know where to

(05:34):
find this. You can go to www dot Thebaseline NBA
dot com in order to check out not just this episode,
but also all of the episodes that we got rolling out.
And if you're catching us on the YouTube channel and
you see the blue and white logo down in the
middle of the screen, you know that we rocks with
the nineteen Media Group family. So we'd like to say
hello to you and yours, so our visual listeners, and
you can always check out the great content of creators

(05:58):
that are lined up with the nineteen Media Group family.
Go to www dot nineteen MediaGroup dot com to not
only check us, but the family of great content creators
that have been rolling out and doing that thing as
part of the nineteen Media Family only does so. Before
we get into our digs of the coveted autopsy report,

(06:18):
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Run your game coming up, Sean, I put the teams
on the slab. You know it's time for them autopsy report.
Don't miss it here on the Baseline. We are back.

(08:33):
Calie Warrenshaw. The Baseline NBA Podcast time now for us
to do the coveted autopsy report, and the first team
that we're gonna put on the slab shaw is going
to be the reigning defending champions. I figured, you know,
it was interesting. I was saying to myself, should we
start with the Calves or should we start with the Celtics?
And I think it's only right that we start with
the Boss of Celtics. Not because they were the last

(08:55):
team to get knocked out as part of our discussion
for the autopsy report, but they are the def champions.
And I think that there's a lot of threads that
have to be pulled out when you look at the
Boston Celtics, because if you go back a year, right,
I think a lot of people questioned the validity of
the championship that the Boss and Celtics won. Now I'm

(09:16):
not questioning it, and I know you weren't questioning it,
but we were certainly not going to go out on
a limb and say, among the great Boston Celtics teams,
you were among one of the greatest. They may have
put up really impressive numbers, right, numbers that for this
generation may spark some kind of a debate about how
legitimately great, they could have been right in comparison to others,

(09:40):
but I think in the grand scheme of things, we
understood this was a well built team built to win
today's NBA championship. Okay, they literally had a strategy. They
literally had a counter for every team that was out
there if and went healthy. I think going into this
season how we really wanted to find out the level

(10:03):
of greatness that this team can possibly ascend to. And
it wasn't a question of whether or not they were
going to win another championship for us to have that conversation,
I think it was a question of how dominant could
they be in the regular season and how dominant can
they be against any of the teams that we all
still have question marks about who would actually still be
able to be able to compete and legitimately hang with

(10:25):
the Boston Celtics. And I think we focus a lot
of attention on teams on the Western Conference because that
was a toss up more so than what we were
worrying about with the Boston Celtics. But I think as
we watched this regular season playout, shaw it was very
evident that the Boston Celtics clearly were not the team
of last year, and I don't think that they clearly
are the team that I think a lot of people

(10:48):
thought that with the evolution of Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum,
that this is the equation of that dynamic duo that
will be the building block of multiple, multiple championships, you know,
moving forward. I think a lot of that now has
been brought to light because of the way the Boston

(11:10):
Celtics performed in this playoff run.

Speaker 2 (11:14):
I mean, where to start, uh with this? With this
organization that I'll buy most people's accounts was at least
had the second best ozs of whin the NBA Championship.
So the playoffs started, and you know, there was something
that wasn't quite right. So I don't want to get
lost to Melo Sauce because a lot todd pack here, right.
Let me even go before the playoffs. The regular season

(11:36):
ended and they were looking like kind of like themselves
from last year. They finished the season kind of regularly dominated,
if you will, But there were times in the season
you're like, oh, they don't look quite right, but they're
the Shams. SNT worry about them. They'll turn it on.
They'll turn it on, they'll turn it on. I think
they took the Knicks too lightly, I you know, and
I think we can't have this conversation without crediting New
York for what they were able to do and coming

(11:57):
back in the first two games and then ultimately put
in the nail of a coffin in an emphatic way
in game six. But the Celtics seem to take their
regular season and success against New York to some level of,
you know, of advantage, and they took it for granted,
and then in those first two games got basically surprised,
and now we're playing from behind on their heels, and

(12:20):
then you put yourself in a position where you're having
not necessarily play harder because you're always playing harder in
the playoffs, but there's there's a lot of stress now
when trying to do what you were trying to do
in terms of terms repeating. Tatum goes down unfortunately now
for a very very long time with the Achilles injuries.
And then yeah, they have a great showing, if you will,
in terms of some pride in game five, but ultimately

(12:40):
just get Wax and mulliwopped in game six to me
where Boston struggles here now is in the terms of
their longevity of who they ultimately want to become, because
the questions is like, well, Isola is Mossoula really a
great coaches has now come back up? Are the are? Are?
Can you keep this team together? Is ultimately kind of
coming up? Is Jenna Brown? I'm that guy at fifty

(13:01):
million dollars. Everything is now in flux. When last year
we were like, hey, this is a great team that
might be on a two or maybe even a three
year run. That timeline now is absolutely thrown out the window.
It is branched off into some ugly multiverse situation here
now that not even Brad Stevens could have predicted it's
going to take place.

Speaker 1 (13:20):
Yeah, I'm not going to give them a pass for
what they did in this this playoff series with the
New York Knicks, but I am not going to lean
in on this was the only incident that we've seen
regarding this, this Bus and Celtics team. I'm gonna go
on this all because you know how I am about this.

(13:41):
I've been about this about this life when it comes
to what wins championships, and people can sit here and
argue with me up and down, we can agree to
disagree on certain things. I understand the goal is to
score the basketball, but the other goal as well too
is to prevent the other team from scoring more points
than you. And if you have already sablished that you're
scoring more points than the other team, it is your

(14:04):
role to ensure to win the game that at the
end that team doesn't score more points than you. Okay,
so we can sit here and we can you know,
act like this isn't something that hasn't been a trend
with the Boston Celtics. But you and I have been
distressed about what we've seen from this Boston Celtics team

(14:25):
going back to last year. This inateability to look like
you're gonna go out and to use your terminology, you
just use mollywop. Teams establish twenty three, twenty four, twenty
five point leads and then suddenly between the third and
the fourth quarter you allow a team to suddenly find
their way. It's almost as if they stop scoring the basketball,

(14:50):
they lose all sense of self. And I've been saying
this even from when they win that championship against the
Dallas Mavericks to their prosperity, wasn't gonna be about how
statistically nice they look and shooting the threes and everything.
It was what they were doing defensively. And I'm saying
to this, I'm saying this now, Shaw, because this is

(15:12):
why I think it's creeping up about questioning whether or
not this team can stay together. I think the elixir
that the Celtics afforded themselves having was a real great
floor general in a Drew Holiday going out there and
leaning on the things that he knew the Celtics needed
to keep consistent and elevate in order for them to

(15:32):
give themselves a chance to win that championship. You saw
Drew Holiday this season take a step back. I think,
by all accounts, Derek White took a step back defensively.
And I think the Celtics as a team, even though
the numbers may speak to that, they were still like
a top five team defensively. And we can use defensive
rating and all that stuff, Shaw, nothing excuses you putting

(15:53):
a twenty point mark on a team and then you
go into the second half and you inherently lose the
third and fourth quarter because you stopped defending. Not that
you stopped scoring, you stopped defending, and that is my
biggest bass. They both they stop defending and sing. But
I think it's connective shaw. I think once the shots
are no longer falling for them, they and listen. This

(16:15):
is very reminiscent of what we've seen with the Golden
State Warriors during their heyday. They stopped scoring the basketball,
and as all of a sudden, they just stopped stopping teams.
It wasn't as if, you know, when you were shooting
the lights out of the place, that you completely demoralize
a team. If a team figures out a way that
they can start scoring the basketball, it has to be
that defensively, you are I guess, imposing your will. And

(16:37):
I just saw that this Celtics team lacked that level
of imposing their will. Defensively. They leaned too much on
the fact that if we drop them down, you know,
drop twenty three pointers on them, they'll just kind of
fade away into the sunset, you know. And to your point,
you play against a team like the New York Knicks,
who are realistically as good as they are off, they

(17:00):
are a slow momentum gathering offensive team. They don't find
their mark until they get to those middling second quarter,
third quarters and to me, I think it was egregious
on Joe Mizzula's part to not point out to that
Celtics team when you're playing against teams like that, you
have got to win the third quarter. I'm gonna leave

(17:21):
it at that part because I know that there's more
that we want to go at this. But if you
really look at this across the board, Shaw and I'm
gonna harken this back to win the Celtics during the
eight to the twelve seasons. What killed them from winning
those championships when they played against the better teams They
did not win the third quarter. They lost the third
and eventually evened out or lost the fourth quarter. And

(17:43):
you cannot afford to do that against teams in the playoffs.
And if you practice those habits in the regular season,
they will doom to repeat and haunt you in the
most critical times, which in this case would be the playoffs.

Speaker 2 (17:57):
Boston is going to maybe they'll take the high road,
and I'm not going to let the mufflelog either. But inevitably,
this is not a healthy team. And you needed health
and you needed luck, and we said going into this
that porzingis needed to be healthy. They weren't going to
be able to fly through the playoffs without of porzingis
like they did last year. I don't know what is

(18:19):
going on, you know, with his respiratory infectioning, the long COVID,
whatever it is, but he was a literal walking zombie
out there on the floor.

Speaker 1 (18:29):
That was the liability, absolute liability.

Speaker 2 (18:32):
Then there's the aspect of Jaylen Brown's need and so
there's things schematically that I'm I'm going to struggle with,
you know, understanding. But if Jalen is not healthy, and yes,
he's raising his hand because he is the guy, the
fifty five sixty million dollar guy. Now, especially with Tatum down,
his ability to try to slow down to Jelen Brunson

(18:53):
is not what it was. One because he's now compromised.
Two because Jaylen Brunson is a different type of shifty
than Luka Doncicche last year. Because obviously bigger, it doesn't
have as much bounce and wiggle Jalen Jalen Brunson stop
and go is just like it's very hard for somebody
who's going to be taller, you know what I mean,
and maybe not less as mobile. And I thought that

(19:13):
was why I commend Massula and Brown for maybe at
least wanting to try to do that. I don't know
that that was the right matchup, but White was also
getting cooked. Holiday was also getting cooked. So let me
finish because it also leads me into the aspect that
Missoula doesn't have a counter. They didn't have the zone
to kind of fall back into to try to force
New York to do something else. They just say, this

(19:35):
is what we know, this is what we do. And
the difference from this year to last year is that
even in that series, like, yes, they shot a bunch
of threes last year, but Tatum obviously is a big
part of what they did last year. But they stopped
shooting threes and started going to the basket and had
better ways in essence to counter defensively even if they
were sticking in man demand. Those things didn't exist for

(19:57):
them this year because of the injuries, and they just
didn't really know what to do once what they did
all the time wasn't were no longer available to them
and no longer Okay.

Speaker 1 (20:05):
So I wanted to I didn't want to interrupt you, Shaw,
but I wanted to make sure because when you got
to the point about Drew Holliday. I think to me
that is also key because I think last year the
Boston Celtics. Again, I say this not to say can
they find their way back if everyone is essentially healthy. Possibly,

(20:26):
I think the caveat here to your point is Kristaps
for Zingis. But I'm gonna harken back to this thing
with Drew Holliday. Okay, I don't know what happened last
year with this year, but Jew Holliday does did not
look like and feel like the same player he was
last year, the same kind of impact player. A lot
of the plays that we saw in a series like

(20:49):
this against the New York Knicks, Jew Holliday would have
been in the middle of Okay, remember Jew Hollide was
not coming in here to give you, you know, fifteen points
per game, whatever, But he was making key plays, making
key defensive stops. Tell me at what point in this series?
Tell me at what point even in the Orlando Magic
series he was ever relevant for the Boston Celtics. And that,

(21:11):
and again that concerned me because this is not just
about the playoffs. It's literally been through the whole course
of the year. Now I know that he's been struggling
through some injuries. But even when he's come back off
of those injuries, you can clearly see that he had
been compromised. He'd missed point blank layups. You know, he'd
get in early foul trouble. You know. So my thing was,

(21:32):
to your point, if you're Joe Moszula and I'm not
giving Missoula a pass, what I'm saying is it would
have been easy because you could just basically put Drew
Holliday on a Jalen Brunson, knowing that Jalen Brown was
not one hundred percent and his knees are not gonna
hold up with the kind of shiftiness that you see
in a player like Jalen Brunson. But you cannot tell
me that even Missoula didn't have as much confidence to

(21:52):
be able to let Drew be Drew, because he's never
been that way really through the course of this year,
you know what I'm saying. Yeah, And so all of
these things now kind of come together. But to your point,
it's on Missoula to find a counter. He has got
to find a counter. Now. I don't know if it's
deploying another player out there, reaching desperately deep into the

(22:13):
bench if you had to, absolutely possibly. I find it
kind of interesting that Troy Craig is on this roster
and the only time that I see him is when
they're instagramming him wearing you know, numbers in dedication to
Jason Tatum. But at no point was he being utilized
or being deployed to help take some of that pressure
off that the Celtics I think would have utilized and

(22:34):
needed for that body to hold off runs or whatever
the case may be. So to your point, I just
think that there's a lot of it's very discombobulated in
our ability to properly assess the Celtics.

Speaker 2 (22:45):
Now.

Speaker 1 (22:45):
I don't know if this is what you call organized chaos,
so that at the end of it, if they knew
they weren't gonna win, and this is what you could
throw out of us. But hey, man, I ain't booney
fool fool man, I am not being fooled by this.
I was disappointed by how they took for granted the
level of greatness they could achieve themselves to be because
I think they were misguided on what got them to

(23:07):
where they are, and they failed to stay disciplined in
the things that really shown people why we were saying, hey,
they really could be a great roster altogether because of
how great they could all be flexible and multiple depend
defenders get on multiple guys and things of that nature.
But if it's going to be compromised because guys are
not one hundred percent healthy, if it's going to be
compromised because guys have different motivations or different agendas about

(23:30):
what they're trying to do through the course of the
regular season and not really keep their eye on the prize. Here,
they did themselves a disservice, especially with the way they
got ousted and especially on how they made things more
challenging than it needed to be. And that goes all
the way back even to the Orlando Magic series. That
series became more challenging than it needed to be because

(23:50):
they were just determined to just be who they are
and not make adjustments when necessary.

Speaker 2 (23:56):
I mean, I'll challenge that notion somewhat. In Orlando. I
think Orlando played them in a very physical way that
they're not used to, and that adage that you can
just roof up the Celtics. You know that they were
able to respond and the games were probably closer than
they should have been. But I think in some ways
they did try to adjust a little bit there in
terms of the physicality and overcoming that. Where they didn't
able to respond in the New York series was almost

(24:20):
kind of like the elitist mentality that they kind of
walked into the series with. And then when they got
literally punched in their mouth two times in the row,
we're like, oh no, we're not the mighty Celtics, and
people won't cow down to us because they're down twenty
Oh all right, well what's next? Right? But then they
won Game three kind of playing the same style. A
bunch of threes kind of went in. You know, Tatum Brown, awesome,

(24:41):
they do their thing, But the entirety of this time
they've been compromised. And I believe what they say in
terms of the locker room chemistry that there's not like
agendas and egos that have clearly been a part of
previous Celtics locker rooms. This comes down to heart, a
better next team at a better next team in general,
and then schemes. We do need to transition now to

(25:01):
what's next as opposed to what was here for Boston.
So you're looking at this payroll, which is immensely inflated.
Hartford is a free agent, Lou Cornett is a free agent.
You're kicking in the contract now, even of Sam Hauser,
which you know he was injured and compromised in the
latter part of the season, and these playoffs as well too.

(25:23):
Then you have this cascading payroll and luxury tax that's
coming aboard with new ownership, you know, into lurking. I
just think we're at the stage where Boston with Tatum
being out what will probably be a nine or ten
month injury, so in a good part of all of
most of them, not all of next year, the twenty
five to twenty six season from a championships perspective, seems

(25:46):
to be I don always say lost, but there's a
there's not a high likelihood that would be the case.
And then do you wait now for Tatum to come
back the following year and feel like we can we
can keep Holiday, we can keep Porzingis, can keep why?
I'll give you my my my short answer to that.
The answer to that is no. I think what ends
up happening is Porzingis and and Drew Holliday get moved

(26:09):
in some semblance of packages to maybe get back some
draft capital. I don't think they're not gonna tank. They're
still too good to tank. But I think if you're
looking for for to save payroll, Holiday and and and
Porzingis are the pieces in essence that goes maybe out
comes back a super super team friendly deal. Maybe he doesn't.
You know, if you're looking at his his body language

(26:30):
on the bench at the end of the game six,
it looked like he was soaking in like all right, yeah, mofos,
like he's gonna remember this and he's gonna want revenge.
I think in some pace, But why what number do
you bring him back? And then I think it's a
matter of do you keep you know, Xavier Tillman and
guys like that. I mean, all these are like supplemental
pieces that are just kind of like not really doing
much for you. But to me, you're building around Brown,

(26:53):
You're building around Derek White. I think he's still too
good that you're trying that you're not trying to move
on from him. And then obviously wait for Tatum to
come back, and in twenty six twenty seven, you have
the bones of a really, really good team that can
still be championship level with some supplemental pieces behind.

Speaker 1 (27:06):
It, So you don't think that there's any any likelihood
that they can move pieces in order to get some
of the pliable, you know, free agents that are out there.
I'm just I'm just wondering if whether or not, like, hey,
there's that window of opportunity maybe to see if they
can pull a Kevin Durant. Right, you may still have

(27:28):
a one two year window and you don't have to
be as much in a rush, so to speak, to
bring back Jason Tatum could possibly pair well with the
Jalen Brown, Right. I somewhat agree with you. I'm a
little I'm a litter Larry about the the Derek White thing.
I guess in my sense, I think Derek White is
a great player, and I still think there clearly can

(27:49):
be a window if you're intended to say he is
the trifecta. I think that, to me is the big question.
What is the trifecta for the for the for the
Boston Celtics. And if that trifecta, it does it entail
keeping a Derek White or is it a tail going
to get someone? And Derek White now becomes like that
fourth person because he's been such a good lead guard

(28:10):
for them in things of that nature that you can
make it expendable. I just think it's gonna be an
interesting situation for the Boston Celtics in the off season
because I cannot imagine that they want to I don't
think they want to rush Jason Tatum back, But at
the same time, I don't think they want to be
in a position where they lose out on a quality season,
especially with the money that you just gave Jalen Brown.

(28:33):
I will say this though, I'm a little surprised that
the level of aggressiveness that Jalen Brown I thought would
have exhibited given the circumstances of what happened in the
offseason with the US men's basketball, the Olympic basketball situation.
And you know, I didn't want to say much of
anything because I think, you know, you make too much
of it if it's all about Jason Tatum, and you

(28:54):
know what he did this year, which has been phenomenally great.
But I saw the edge come off of Jalen Brown.
I saw more of a quiet, very you know, subdued,
not as aggressive Jalen Brown that I saw going into
the playoffs last year when they fully had their eye
on the prize about winning this championship, and I just
think it'll be interesting to see what kind of off

(29:14):
season Jalen Brown decides to take. I wanted to pull
out one of the he said, Yeah, losing to the
Knicks is like losing is like death. I'm like, all right, well,
if you feel that kind of way, right, then you
know that the Celtics and the Knicks don't love each other.
So going into this off season, is the motivation about

(29:34):
the revenge? You know what I'm saying factor that you
lost to the New York Knicks because last year that
wasn't really an issue. The New York Knicks wasn't even relevant, right,
So my thing is, Okay, what's the motivation going into
this offseason? Because listen, one can argue the Celtics can
easily be another top three team in the Eastern Conference again,
and whether the Knicks are gonna truly be that team

(29:55):
as well too. I'm just saying that to me. I
just want to see a much more aggressive Jalen Brown
in the off season, putting in that work. And regardless,
this is the window now for you to really say,
even when Jason Tatum comes back, I'm like, that guy
all around guy that I'm the big dog in the
yard that like does look what does that mean?

Speaker 2 (30:17):
I think I think like we all need to define
that to some degree. And I liked how the way
he played in Game five, where he was more of
a point forward. He didn't feel like I needed this
hore forty, you know, like, hey, I can get and
be official with my shots. I can drive and kick,
you know, and make the extra pass. Like you could
literally see his brain working in real time in that game, like, no,

(30:38):
this isn't the best shot. Let me take one drouble in,
draw the defense and then spray back out and then
when those shots are falling from the perimeter are awesome.
I think if that semblance to Brown is who we
get awesome. I'm gonna this is not gonna make sense,
but I'm gonna say it anyway. Remember in the days
of Stephan clay and everyone was like clay can be
a number one guy. Clayton and Jaylen Brown are not
the same, Like they're they're fundamentally different people. But the

(31:01):
roles and this is where I'm utilized in the comparison
we will now get to see in a very real way,
could Jalen Brown be a lead guy, and that lead
doesn't necessarily mean he has to score forty even thirty
five a night. Can it be in a way where
he's sufficient and ends up really getting the other guys involved.
And it has to come at the expense of him
learning how to dribble better. We're X amount of years

(31:24):
into where his handle looks shaky, especially under duress in
the middle of the paint. Yes, you'll have a couple
of nights and moves has a decent euro step as well,
but that handle has got to be better, especially going
into next year. And I would contend that if you
bring this team back as currently constructed, don't make any moves,
they can still be a top top four to five
team in the Eastern Conference, especially with the way the

(31:45):
Eastern trending right now. I believe that not one or two,
but they can definitely be four. File about the play
in line, if you strip it down some now, I'd
be like, all right, this is a team that's probably
going to be fighting for the play in six maybe
seven type of situation if you move person and holiday
depending on what you get back. But Jalen Brown's next
year is going to determine truly the long term future

(32:07):
of this Boston cell sixteen, whether or not he should
be pair alongside Jason Tatum when he comes back, because
at this number, and I know we don't like to
talk about it him in that way, but at this number,
you've got to be able to show the chops of
being a true leader who can do things that doesn't
always just mean scoring a bunch of flour.

Speaker 1 (32:23):
Absolutely, you're tuned to the baseline Cali Warrenshaw discussing the
hot button topics of the NBA. Coming up, we'll focus
our attention to the team who probably should have been
in the Eastern Conference Finals, but yet again they fall short.
We'll be talking about the Cleveland Cavaliers on the other side.
Don't go anywhere. We're back, Cali Warrenshaw, basedline NBA podcast,

(32:51):
continuing our coveted autopsy report. Time for us to talk
about the Cleveland Cavaliers. And there's not much that can
be said. Man, this is like now, this is becoming
a trend, and it's kind of disheartening because I so
much want to believe in the fact that Spider Mitchell
and the Cleveland Cavaliers, you know, they have they have

(33:18):
essentially mostly not all the pieces to get you at
least to the finals. Okay, there's no question about that.
And this season, I mean across the board, what can
what more can be said? The only thing that's missing is,
you know, them having somebody legitimately being an MVP candidate.
But you know, you can make the argument Spider Mitchell
literally was, you know, playing at an MVP like kind

(33:40):
of level with how he was able to galvanize and
make this team essentially better, elevate them to another space collectively,
as his team was about as dangerous as you could
possibly have, a team like we were talking about the
Oklahoma City Thunder, you know, so to get knocked out
by the Indiana Pacers, and I think to your point,
shall we just talked about this with the Celtics. I

(34:01):
just feel like this team took for granted what they
showed through the course of the regular season and just
did not make the necessary adjustments to show the versatility
of what the top team in the Eastern Conference should
be doing against the lesser teams that they managed to
just beat the breaks off through the course of the
regular season, and you don't have the luxury of waiting

(34:23):
two weeks from now to figure it out, man, or
you know your next matchup is two months from now.
It is a seven game series and you only have
four chances to get it right and you squander two
of those chances on your home court. Really resonates with
me because it's just speaking to the fact that they're

(34:45):
just not getting it now. I said all of that
because it sounds really harsh, But now I want to
liken this to what we were just talking about with
Jason Tatum and Jalen Brown. How long did it take
before we started seeing them really starting to figure it out.
I mean, everyone one's gonna say, yeah, it literally took
Lebron James to leave the damn Eastern Conference for them
to actually figure this part of it out. But look

(35:06):
how long it literally took them before they actually began
to see quote unquote the fields of graneur right to
get to the NBA finals, Because the question for them
wasn't how good they were to get to the Eastern
Conference finals? Can they get over the hunt to get
to the finals and look how many Look look how
long it took to do that? Right? Are we thinking
that this is gonna be the same thing with this

(35:27):
Cleveland Cavaliers team.

Speaker 2 (35:31):
Listen, I didn't even say the number in the previous segment. So,
but Boston has a two hundred and twenty seven million
dollars pay roll next year, right, and that was without
without Hornet, Cornette and Harford on it. Cleveland's pay roll
is two hundred and seventeen million dollars next year. So
Mobley's extension kind of kicks in here. Now you're already
paying Garland and then obviously he had just resigned out

(35:51):
individuals well too. I'm concerned, you know that this is
finals which he has opening knowledge and doesn't duck at
the or shy away from it in any real way.
The Calves lost three games on their home floor in
the second round, like that is egregious, Like like it's
it's egregious. And when you work that hard get that

(36:14):
many that amount of wins, And yes, they have a
similar situation to Boston. Garland was battling turf toe. You know,
Mitchell had the ankle injury, Mobile had you know, a
nagging injury as well too. I just feel like they
still should have had enough I think with that to
beat India. Truly gut checked time in terms of this organization.

(36:37):
They sacrificed. They they looked like Boston of last year,
where roles were being understood, this is what we need
to do. They increased the volume of three. Donovan Mitchell
took a step back. I don't need to score thirty
a nine or whatever his minutes were down. Everything is
mobile that we've been wanting to see, all the things happen.
They just destroyed the mind heat in the first round,

(36:58):
and I think maybe that gave them a level little
air of confidence, like, all right, we'll be good, but
well we'll let him rest. Yikes, bro Yikes. None of
these things went the way that they thought it was,
and why I don't think they are going to be
They're not going to fall into the doldrums of the
Eastern Conference because the East is still the very East.
They'll have a very very good regular season record again

(37:18):
next year. And I don't think they're going to make
any fundamental changes a full year of the andred hundred
you know, into the into their scheme. And I don't
have any real constructive feedback for them in terms of
roster construction right now other than this is about heart
and determination at this point, and that's what they're going
to need to do is guts that time next year,
and hope, as I said in the last couple couple

(37:39):
of weeks ago, I hope it's not the same back to
match channel for them because they're better than what they
showed in this year's playoffs.

Speaker 1 (37:45):
Listen, seaw like, all of this is relevant, right, I
think all of it is relevant. That it's hard for
you not to want this roster as it's constructed for
them to run it back. I think they do need
to run it back. But I I'm very leary of
the stigma that tends to kind of hang over a

(38:05):
team like this, that is this this successful okay, partly
because I don't they're not used to this level of prosperity,
you know, not since Lebron, not since you know, and
and the last time that they did that. That's where
most of these teams tend to go. They go backwards
and say, you know, man, we'll never see it like

(38:26):
them days when we had Lebron and Kyrie and Kevin
Love or you know, back in the Chicago days when
we had Derrick Rose and you know, Jokeim Noah and loud, Like,
I don't want that to be the case because you
have to appreciate the circumstances of how this team was
constructed and how this team built. Remember the Cleveland Cavaliers
in the thick of the Night stole Donovan Mitchell from

(38:47):
going to the New York Knicks, right, you know what
I'm saying, Like, I don't think Donovan Mitchell even understands
like the ramifications of how he changed the quote unquote
narrati of what Cleveland Cavaliers basketball is like or going
to be like post the Lebron era, You know what
I'm saying. And so I think fans have to be

(39:10):
a little bit more patient. But I also think as
well too that this is now going to be up
to Kenny Atkinson because I think this is a new
space for him. Remember he's usually the person to go
in there and fix and elevate things. He comes in
there and immediately takes this team that is quote unquote

(39:30):
you know, a respectable playoff team into oh snap, these
guys should be one of the Eastern Conference finalists. So
to fall short of a yes, very disappointing. But he's
got some leeway because I don't think that we've seen
Kenny Atkinson in this space. He's usually at the beginning
stages of things, before organizations, you know, get all up
in their feels and try to get slick, and then

(39:52):
they move them all and move on from him. I
want to see what he does with this. I want
to see how he takes what happened here and uses
this Like we see what Mark Dagnault was doing with
the Oklahoma City Thunder. You know, he could have easily
taken what's going on last year. And you know where
everyone's saying that they are one trick pony team or
their you know, their paper number one contenders. I think

(40:15):
people may have that same kind of sentiment, but I
think it's a little bit more believable when you see
the elevation now of Evan Mobley, when you see the
elevation of Jared Allen, and you now see that they're
making moves like getting at DeAndre Andre. I think things
are still in pace. I think people need to be
just a little patient. I know it's hard given in
this climate in the NBA, but the people have to
be a little bit patient. Where I am concerned, ough

(40:35):
Shaw is now we get to this point with certain players,
and I said this at the beginning of the year
that I wondered about the combination of Donovan Mitchell and
Darius Garland. Okay, I need to see another level from
Darius Garland. Okay, he is very much a part of
why this team is successful. He was also very much
a part of the reason why the Cleveland Cavaliers could

(40:58):
not get past the Indiana Pacers. And the Indiana Pacers
knew that. Indiana Pacers knew that. You know. And so
you're Darius Garland. You got to go into this offseason man,
and you have got to give people. You got to
put him on notice. Last year we saw that with
Derek White and how he improved in so many different ways.

(41:18):
And then you add Drew Holliday and his veteran leadership
and him his counseling allowed Derek White to essentially be
the number one guard that the Celtics needed, Right, And
so I need to see that kind of evolution from
Darius Garland, right if that happens, because I still see

(41:38):
that lack of aggressiveness, that lack of of I still
feel like things still have to go through Donovan Mitchell.
I would rather see Donovan Mitchell Shaw to be the
the the the Swiss Army knife guard. He can come in,
he can do the point guard thing, but I still
feel like he still has to take over. And I
think that if your daily Darius Garland with that kind

(41:59):
of speed, with the ability for you to break defenses down,
you have to be more aggressive. You have to you
have to rely on the fact that you are going
to set the rest of your guys up. And I
understand he had turf toe, but I did not nearly
see Even with the turf toe show, I still didn't
even see the level of aggressiveness I would have expected
to see. And the Pacers knew that. And so I'm

(42:21):
just saying, when you're playing against your rivals, when you're
playing you know, the regular season is a great opportunity
for you to get a little bit of shine on
and carry that going into the playoffs, because there's going
to be a good coach who's going to find a
way to counter your Your number one Plan A. Garland
has to be Plan one AA in a sense, if

(42:41):
they're gonna all, you know, collectively, be that team that
I think we're thinking that they're capable of being.

Speaker 2 (42:46):
He's the next guy, in other words, is what I'm
saying I would disagree, I think with the offensive notion.
To be honest with you, I think for Cleveland to
take that next step that you're thinking about, I think
it's incumbent upon Garland and Donovan Mitchell both to kind
of lean in more into that defensive side, you know,
as the aforementioned Celtics were. I think Udoka really made

(43:08):
Round and Tatum understand that you need to play on
both sides of the basketball and not worry about taking turns.
So we got the offensive side kind of figured out
this year on Cleveland because of Kenny Atkinson's team schemes
and you know that delineation and democracy that came through
the Cleveland offense and the evolution of Evan Mobley. But
where teams felt like we could so look our tops
a little bit is in that backcourt pairing on the

(43:31):
other side, Well, Garland and Mitchell are going to give
it to you there might give up just as much
because they're just not as prolific defensively. And that's where
I think that both of them, collectively as a backcourt tandem,
need to focus on what does it mean to stay
in front of guys or truly steer into the help
of those twoin towers when you have Mobley an Allen
back there, and so you're not always necessarily getting beat
off the dribble and have it to have all that

(43:53):
defense kind of help or then be available for drop
offs in the dunker's font and things of that nature.
So that's where, you know, where you talk about aggressiveness,
that often comes at the offensive side of things. And
I don't have a problem what Garland did offensively really,
even with the turf to so to speak. It's just
that that defensive side for them is kind of a
glaring liability. And hence when I got the one hundred

(44:13):
hunter as well too, to try to help shore some
of those things up, because right now at this point,
Isaaca Korro's is pretty much unplayable. Ti Jerome when he
is playable, isn't doing anything defensively. So that's where they
still have some holes, even though they still in defensive
rating as a team this year.

Speaker 1 (44:27):
Okay, because I was gonna say, like, you know, not
to to you know, be hypocritical or nothing like that,
or make it seem that it's hypocritical. We're leaning into
the fact that they were a top team, top ten
team defensively, right, but you still saw flaws defensively in
them them specifically. Okay, yeah, so, and look, I'm not

(44:50):
gonna argue with that particular point. I think it is
a legitimate point. I think where I'm just making more
of the emphasis is not from again a scoring perspective.
I think it's the ability to break defense down. I
think maybe I just saw more of him relying too
much on a shot or taking shots so to speak,
rather than breaking defenses down, getting in in the middle

(45:10):
and mixing up things. I felt like it seemed like
they were waiting more for that to happen through Donovan
Mitchell than it was from Darius Garland. And I well,
to your point, I will say Darius Garland got into
some silly fouls, you know, got into easy foul trouble,
really made himself unavailable. But to me, I think he

(45:31):
is best equipped to really elevate the plays of guys
like Mobley and Allen and even DeAndre Hunter with their length.
But if he can get into the interior, get into
the paint more, he can set those guys up to
do what the offense allows it to do. Because if
you're only gonna allow Donovan Mitchell to do that. Now
you're relying on Darius Garland to space out to shoot,

(45:52):
which I'm not as confident of a person to see
Darius Garland shooting the basketball some empty times if it's
not to penetrate in the paint and get to the
So that to me is where I'm coming from from
that perspective. But I agree with you. I do think that,
especially if you're going to keep them on the floor,
they have got to be a better backcourt defensive tandem
against whoever their opposition is if they're gonna give themselves

(46:14):
a chance to compete in the Eastern Conference finals.

Speaker 2 (46:16):
Yeah, Garland one fifteen defensive rating, Donovan Mitchell one thirteen
defensive rating, Max Shrew's one fifteen defensive rating right. Meanwhile,
Multi Allen at one a wight. So they're clearly bolstering
the defense and cleaning up for honestly, those three guys
who were just not at the level that a championship
level team needs to be. But still I'm not saying

(46:37):
they didn't try this year, because they did make strides.
But if you're talking about that next step, that's where
it needs to come from from Cleveland. So for me,
And like I said, there's just there's not a whole
lot of roster construction and rebuilding that needs to be
done here. They just got to get it done. Like
they just just got to get it in and figure
it out because they have the talent, especially with Hunter here.

(46:58):
Now again, I'll say for a full season, and ultimately
they need to decide what they're gonna do with tyger O.
If I was going to truly, truly truly nitpick at this,
you know when we talk about Garland is well, then
who truly is who's the real backup point guard on
this roster that you trust? You know? And I think
it's you know, playmaking comes from Donovan Mitchell in a

(47:19):
very real way. But is that what you want him
to be doing? You know, you know, when Garland is
out of the game, so to speak, so like who's
the next guy? So could they use somebody else? I
think so they can use a backup point guard? If
I was going to be truly nitpicky up a stid
the roster.

Speaker 1 (47:33):
Interesting stuff, man. But yea again, great season all around
for the For the Cleveland Cavaliers. Our settlement is don't
do anything, but you got to get better. You gotta
get better, and you can't be this good and get
knocked out, you know, in the second round, Like it's
gotta be championship finals, you know.

Speaker 2 (47:52):
Yeah, especially next year with Boston looking like they're going
to have a down year, right, I mean, well, we
don't know if it's gonna happen there right now. I mean,
you know, the East truly is for the taken. And
despite this Knicks run, despite this Pacers run. I look
at them, as I said with Boston last year, don't
look at them and like, oh my god, we can't
beat them. There's there's there's no there's nobody looking at
that right now. I think Cleveland and Boston are kicking

(48:12):
themselves in their ass right now, Like yo, they could
very cold. Yeah, and I think the rest of the
East wills well too. I mean, you look at it again,
we talked about Orlando and whoever whoever you think is
next up Detroit, even to may Les, It's like, Yo,
a couple of the right moves here. We can really
be right in the thick of this. So Cleveland has

(48:34):
no reason to think, since they didn't, they're not gonna
lose Mitchell for the entire of the year, like Boston
is gonna lose Tatum like this this the East could
be theirs. Honestly, Milwaukee, you know, might be fundamentally changed
with Giannis out of the conference. The Cleveland Cavaliers have.

Speaker 1 (48:49):
Your point, they're fundamentally changed because Lillard is gone, right,
like he's out for most of the year, and they
were the second best team in the in their division.
Right So now you might make an argument, Okay, that's
the opportunity to pas well, yeah, I mean just in
the context that through most of the year it was
basically the Bucks and then the Pacers, you know, had
that come up. But you're not looking at this Pacers

(49:11):
team saying, oh, they're their next team that's gonna score,
that's gonna give you like sixty wins. They're good, they're
a solid team, and if somehow they find them, they're like,
oh man, we're we're the lucky We're the lucky losers man. Mac.
You know, if they if they get and we're gonna
talk about the Eastern Conference finals real quick. If they
get through and they get to the finals, hey man,
this could be it for them. This really could be

(49:33):
it for them, because we just don't you just don't know.
With the way teams are structured in the Eastern Conference,
you don't know whether or not you're gonna get another
crack at it. You literally just don't You're too to
the baseline. Cali warren Shaw discussing the hot button topics
of the NBA coming up Eastern Conference Finals preview. Shaw
and not give our takes, and then we also give
our predictions. You don't want to miss it here we're

(50:03):
back Cali warren Shaw based on NBA podcasts. That was
a good autopsy. Shaw And I don't know about you,
but I guess when talking about the dead so much,
sometimes it's just good therapy.

Speaker 2 (50:14):
To Yeah, it's been a rough week. And like I said,
we care about one of those teams, maybe more than
the others. But at the end of the day, you know,
we're trying to make sure we do what we do
here and and we're equitable, you know, in our assessment,
and I think we were able to accomplish it.

Speaker 1 (50:31):
Oh yeah, absolutely, But and listen, credit to these teams.
They set the standard, so it's only right, like we
have to make sure that we scrutinize them, you know,
as much as possible. You know, I think a lot
of people look at what happened and are instantly thinking,
you got to shake things up. No in the Cavaliers. No,
you don't need to shake it up, but you should
demand better of them. This is like, all right, now,

(50:53):
this is year two that they've They've done this right, Okay,
year three, no excuses? Right, So there you go. All right, Sean,
let's get right into the Eastern Conference Finals. New York
Knicks Indiana Pacers. You know, a lot of people are
trying to get at this. Oh it's revenge time, you know,
giving what happened with the Pacers knocking out the Knicks

(51:13):
last year in the semi finals, you know, doing what
they did in that Game seven, all this other kind
of stuff. You know, Sean, I'm looking at this from
a completely different perspective, and people might be thinking I'm
being petty or you know, feeling some kind of way
about it. If you're both the Pacers and the New
York Knicks, you think you're lucky stars, that you've got
some really good players and things just lined up as

(51:35):
well as they did for you to make sure that
when the opportunity presented itself, you did not squander it
so that you can get yourself here. This is the opportunity.
If you're the New York Knicks, you've got to get
to the finals. There's just there's Listen. They are a
better team on paper, legitimately have a better team than

(51:55):
the Indiana Pacers. However, I've seen the Indian and the
Pacers play better team basketball on both sides of the
ball the course of this playoff run, and I don't
see anything changing of that. So if I'm if I'm
Tom Thibodeau, if I'm Brunson, and them the guys, I
have to be very careful about what my number one

(52:17):
motivation needs to be about getting the job done to
get to the finals. This does not have to be
anything about more than if Brunson and Bodega and Bridges
and Anobi and Harden, all of them do what they're
capable of doing, they should be able to get past
this Indiana Pacers team. They should be what I might

(52:38):
be dreaming.

Speaker 2 (52:40):
Yeah, I'm interested to see how any Innercar's cat That
I think has been something that teams have been trying
to like, Hey, well gard him small, and you know,
take our chances with that, because you don't feel like
he's gonna bully ball his way into any Cat's really
about He's really interested in celebrating. I didn't realize that
about him. He's really interested in celebrating every basket. So
he's he's got to tone that down here because it's

(53:01):
like it's it's winning time, right, like you're supposed to
swor the basketball so relaxed. And so how Indiana now
decides to do that? Do they, you know, stick a
knem hard on him as opposed to a Siaka, which
would be the more more natural matchup, because I think
what ended up happening likes, particularly in the Boston series,
is that they didn't want to have a big on
them because well then Cats is taking your big away

(53:24):
from protecting the rim, so to speak. And I think
obviously that's how Indiana would want to play with Miles
Miles Turner. So do you put Miles Turner on Josh Hart,
you know? While and or do you know you do
you try to put him on whatever big is going
to be roaming around? Like, I don't know what Carlile's
going to do, but I think Carlile's probably best suited
and as is to try to scheme his way to
an Indian and victory in this Eastern Conference Finals because

(53:46):
they are getting a production throughout the entirety of their bench.
You know, even with Mathurin taking a little bit of
a step back to the hot start he had in
the regular season, you know, we've seen him kind of
tail off, but now kind of reduce that reduce, but
settling into more of a bench role, even a guy
a bench shepherd coming off the bench and contributing, even
Thomas Bryan a little bit. But to me, that guy
who has just been ridiculous as a playoff performer. And

(54:08):
I know, I know Tyers Haliburton is a guy here,
but but Nemhard, he's just he's locked solid, lock solid,
He's locked in, and he's really got this team, you know,
playing at a level alongside Halliburn and the great work
of Siakam as well. That gives us pictures of dimension
that I didn't necessarily see coming or believe in going
into the playoffs.

Speaker 1 (54:29):
So well, you're welcome, Shaw, but listen, if you're the
New York Knicks, you have to be concerned because we're
talking about how guys like Nemhart, guys like Miles Turner.
They're all having their moment, and while Sam he is quietly,

(54:52):
quietly doing a lot of the dirty work. He's he
is quietly having a really really solid playoff. Let's remember
he is an NBA champion, right, he might be ready
to do his best work in this Eastern Conference finals,
and this is exactly the reason why the Indiana Pacers

(55:13):
brought him over to this team. Remember I said it
was very intriguing to see the Indiana Pacers go after
and bring in Pascal Siakam, right, whether that was a
knee jerk motion because of how the Pacers are overachieving
in what they did a couple seasons ago. But now
you're starting to see when all of these components start
to come together, what it's supposed to, what it's supposed

(55:35):
to look like, and what it's supposed to mean. One
thing that I am going to say that I think
is going to be interesting, especially when you see how
Rick Carlile it deploys his roster and how Tom Thibodau
deploys his roster. Rick Carlile has a lot more confidence
in the depth of his roster than you will see
with Tom tibb Right, I want to see if Tom

(55:55):
Thibodeau doesn't wait until it's absolute desperation time for him
to start using the rest of that bench when certain
situations deem it that he has to make an adjustment
for that he has to counter for you know what
I'm saying. I've seen Carlile do it through the course
of his playoffs already. He did that against the Cleveland Cavaliers, right,

(56:17):
And so I want to see if whether or not
Carlile forces Tips to make a play, forces him to
go deeper than just Duce McBride, you know, and a
couple of other guys that Tom Thibodeau sparingly uses. And
it's not because of injury Shaw, It's because of execution.
And so that to me, is going to be the key.
You can see that Carlile can still ask of his

(56:39):
guys to go out and execute, even if they may
not score at the same rate that his starters are scoring.
He knows that from either a defensive or an offensive perspective,
he's getting what he's getting from his role players. And
I think that, to me is going to be the key,
because this, to me, is going to feel like an
even longer seven game series than what happened last year
with the New York Knicks and the Indiana Pacers, just

(57:01):
because it's gonna come down to the sheer will of
whether or not your starters are ready.

Speaker 2 (57:05):
For the long haul. Yeah, something that's interesting about the
Pacers when you talk about the depth, they don't have
a twenty point per game guy. Here in the playoffs,
there's not one guy on that team averaging twenty. So
it truly is you know, depth death by the depth
that they have right now. Siakam leaves them in eighteen
point eight, Halliburn's at seventeen and a half, but guys

(57:26):
are just sharing the basketball and getting and done. Neie
Smith is uptick to scoring to fourteen point six, and
you know, I think he'll have the primarily brunts and assignment,
so maybe some of his offense might go to, you know,
go to the wayside as he tried in the guard
and stay in front of Budson to the majority part
of the series. You know, I think alongside them part
as well. But that to me is something where Indiana
has a clear advantage of this. They trust more guys

(57:47):
and I think, you know, even as you're alluding to
with with Thibodeaux and induce Smitbride. Can you still get
the same level of production? Due played very well in
the semi finals against the Celtics. He played very well,
I think it was in the Pistols season Piston series,
but a lot better in the in the Celtics one.
So can you see that level of aggression and consistency here? Otherwise,

(58:09):
like you said, you're going to kind of look down
that bench and say it's like, all right, cool, who
else can we bring in here? Can Mitchell Robinson continue
to be healthy knockdown free throws if they go to
the hack of Robinson strategy, but also get those second
second chances because that's where the Knicks killed Bosson And
on the offensive boards, you know, in this Indiana is
not a poor offensive or not a poor rebounding team.
So I think, you know that could be a little

(58:30):
bit more even. But Mitchell Robinson gives a dimension to
New York, especially if they go double bigs, that a
lot of teams would have some troubles with. So Thibodeaux
has some things at his disposal. I think Carlisle has more.
But the overall talent level in New York is a
little bit higher. So that's what makes Face a very
intriguing series to me to kind of see which one
of those is are going to be the depth or
the talent that wins ultimately.

Speaker 1 (58:51):
All right, so who do you have lined up for
this for this series?

Speaker 2 (58:55):
Yeah, as much as I it's begrudging for me, you know,
I am going to pick the Knicks, and I think
it will be a seven game series. I think that
they are very evenly matched. And this is me even
getting off my soapbox of kind of like the Indiana
Indiana distaste that I have. I think they've more than
acquitted themselves in these playoffs, and I do think it's
a toss up, like it really could kind of go

(59:15):
either way. But I'm just gonna lean on the clutch
ability of Gelen Brunson and the grit that the Knicks
have shown within this. The Pacers have not been challenged
like they have not been challenging this despite you know,
and I maybe saying that's just how good they are
because they both raised the Cleveland Cavaliers, but I think
they need to be. They haven't gone through the wars
that the Knicks have, you know, even in these two

(59:37):
series where they have been challenging that first yeries still
could have went either way with Detroit, like, I don't
get any about it, says like it could have went
either way. And then they really kind of, I say,
didn't dominate Boston, but they grew up against Boston in
a way that I didn't see coming. So I got
NIX and seven I have.

Speaker 1 (59:53):
I have the Knicks in seven, but I'm gonna say this,
if the Indiana Pacers win one of the first two
games in the Garden, I think the Indiana Pacers going
taken in six. And I feel more strongly about the
Pacers probably winning in six than I do about the
Knicks winning. But again, I just think that the Knicks
have better clutch players when when asked off, it's a

(01:00:16):
question of people they be healthy enough and will they
be in a position to to to to be able
to show that they're capable of doing those things. It's
gonna be a tough series, man, It's gonna be a
tough series. I think that it's no less than six
or seven games. But if I'm the New York Knicks,
I really would not like to be in a situation

(01:00:39):
where I'm giving up any of the home court advantage
city Indiana Pacers at the early outset of this playoff series.
If you do that, I think you run the risk
of you getting knocked out by the Pacers. And the
Pacers have proven that they can go out there and
they can win on the road, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:00:53):
I mean, but so of the Knicks though. So that's
where I don't know home court means as much as
it used to. But I understand where you're going. I
just feel like both of these teams are very good
road teams that we don't necessarily need to worry about,
even in Indiana where the Steel game one or two
in the garden, I hear you.

Speaker 1 (01:01:09):
Here's where I kind of differ with where you're coming from.
The New York Knicks prove that they can come from
behind against a team that allows teams to come from behind,
the Indiana Pacers. And I think where I'm saying is
is if the Indiana Pacers get on top of the Knicks.
I'm not talking about this being like a two three game,

(01:01:29):
you know, wired, you know, tight game going into the
final minutes. I'm saying, if the Indiana Pacers go out
there and molly wap the Knicks in the early outset.
The Knicks are not coming back to win that game.
The Indiana Pacers, I just think, as far as an
offensive team goes, I think they're just too good to
allow a team to just suddenly just come back out
of the woodworks and then they lose that game. I

(01:01:51):
think Carlisle will figure out and find a way to
make sure that even if the Knicks go on a run,
they ain't going on a run to knock out like
they did the Celtics. The Pacers will figure that out.

Speaker 2 (01:02:02):
But what I'm saying is that they have more dimensions
to their offense.

Speaker 1 (01:02:05):
No, they do. But what I am also saying is
well too when it comes to the New York Knicks,
the New York Knicks cannot let this get out of hand,
right because then the Pacers get in the Knicks heads.
The flat out is just a fact. The Pacers are
that kind of team. They have got to be up
in you. They gotta be chirping, they gotta be all
up in your headspace, you know what I'm saying. And

(01:02:26):
I don't know if the Knicks want to be messing
around playing those kind of head games with the Pacers,
you know, But if I'm the New York Knicks. I
have to make sure that I make a statement, and
I have to make sure that they understand that it's
not going to be easy to just get wins in
the Madison Square Garden. The MSG like to me, it's
not about just the sacred ground of MSG. It's about
the fact that you're the New York Knicks, and you

(01:02:48):
are you effectively have home court advantage because you're the
third best team in the Eastern Conference. Therefore, there should
be no reason why you're going to allow the Indiana
Pacers to destroy you on your own home court. And
we have seen where the Indiana Pacers go out there
and blitz teams to the point it makes them question
whether or not they can hang in that series. And

(01:03:09):
that's what I don't want to see. But it can happen,
and it's happened.

Speaker 2 (01:03:12):
I mean ask you one final final question here, Where
do where does? Where? Does Brunson spend the majority of
his time defensively? You know, do you think he ends
up guarding nemhard or or or nice Smiths Because I
think the cross matches on New York side. In my head,
I'm figuring it out. I think will start out on
Turner and nobody's going to be guarding Siakam. I think
they'll put Bridges on Halliburton, right, and then that allows

(01:03:35):
them is going to be on right, And I think
what ends up happening Bridges and and sorry Bridges and
Nie smith will probably alternate on Brunson, you know, cross
matching with the case it b But I think on
the flip side is where does Brunson spend the most
of his time trying to hide? You know? And yeah,
you're right, it might it might be it might be

(01:03:56):
Nie Smiths. But you know, this is why we play
the games. Man. I'm I'm over, you know, the Celtics
loss per se. Now I can just kind of focus
on what is basketball without any rooted interest and and see,
you know what I think will be a race series
between Indiana and New York.

Speaker 1 (01:04:10):
Absolutely, man, great show all together, man, I mean we
covered a lot. We buried two teams, and then we
found a way to talk about two teams that are
staying alive, right so, and one of those teams eventually
is going to be a participant in this year's NBA
Finals and we are definitely here for it. Man.

Speaker 2 (01:04:29):
So awesome show all together, brother, absolutely so, please continue
to tap in with the Baseline NBA podcast. You know
we got those goods for you, exciting and siding conversations.
You know we'll ramp up, we'll covers you a little
bit as we get into the Conference finals and the
NBA Finals ultimately, but enjoy, man, enjoy where there's still
a lot of great basketball ahead of us. We got
the drafts coming up as well, two special guests coming
up on the base line and in a couple of

(01:04:50):
weeks too. Great time to be a live brother, and
a great time to be rocking and rolling with you.

Speaker 1 (01:04:55):
Like absolutely man So for the Baseline Cali warren Shaw,
we appreciate you guys, Thanks for having over with us
this week. Enjoy the Eastern Conference Finals. Catch up with you,
m hmm,

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