New Year, New Stakes: NBA Resolutions + Inside the NBA’s Anti-Tanking Push w/ ESPN’s Kevin Pelton

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
What's good. Everybody is your boy cal game Face Lee.

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And it's me Warrenshaw and we are officially live on
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Don't miss out.

Speaker 3 (00:45):
This is the Baseline discussing the hot button topics of
the NBA. Welcome everybody, your tune to the Baseline Calie
Warrenshaw discussing the hot button topics.

Speaker 1 (00:55):
Of the NBA. We are so close to twenty twenty
six and what better.

Speaker 3 (01:01):
Way to bring in the new year than to roll
out some resolutions, spread a little bit of cheer and hopefully.

Speaker 1 (01:12):
Be done with this one big elephant in the room thing.

Speaker 3 (01:18):
Hanging over the NBA's head and to be able to
have that kind of conversation.

Speaker 1 (01:22):
We've got a great guest on board.

Speaker 3 (01:23):
So it's a good way to end the year, bringing
people along, moving people forward, and getting everybody to a sane,
peaceful place.

Speaker 1 (01:33):
It's in the air.

Speaker 3 (01:34):
Let me roll out the red carpet to Mariah han
Man WWWS Shaw Sports at in net BIGGNI, PNC, My man,
mister Warrensharwrabin out of Fort Lauderdale, Florida. Happy holidays to you,
my brother, and are you with me in finding the
NBA's sense of calm and peace for twenty twenty six.

Speaker 2 (01:51):
You know, I'm always about the Zence family always, and
if the NBA could find a reason to be chilled
just for a little while and stop messing around and
messing aby think.

Speaker 4 (02:00):
You know everything, it would be a good hand.

Speaker 2 (02:01):
But again, it is a lot of fun and the
drama does bring excitement and it gives us a lot
of great content as well too.

Speaker 4 (02:05):
But I'm excited, man.

Speaker 2 (02:06):
It's been one hel of a twenty twenty five And
before you kind of get into it, twenty twenty six
is actually lucky year thirteen for us, coming into that.
So January will be the thirteenth, thirteenth year of our podcast.
So a lot of great things coming up here. But
twenty twenty five was an amazing and amazed, amazing year.

Speaker 3 (02:23):
All yeah, man, I mean maybe at some point we'll
find time to pop our column and everything, you know
what I'm saying. But I am looking forward to an
opportunity for us to link up and be able to
break bread with other fellow podcasters in our old stopping
ground of Orlando. We did this last year and we're

(02:43):
going to push that forward and doing it again for
twenty twenty six, and so I'm definitely looking forward to
not only being a part of that community as well too,
but again another space for the Baseline NBA podcast to
make its presence felt you are able to network and
link up with some really cool people that nature, and
hopefully we'll be able to do it again next year

(03:03):
and share a little bit of piece of that that magic,
you know what I'm saying. That affair that that be
going on in those parts in the coming weeks. So,
I know, we got a lot of stuff that's happening
going into twenty six, twenty twenty six. But as you said,
you know what I'm saying, lucky number thirteen and yeah, man,
couldn't have been able to get it to this point,

(03:25):
you know without you, my brother. So you know, kudos
to you, and kudos to your diligence, your situitiveness and
your perseverance. You know, we've been fortunate. The nineteen Media
Group family has been fortunate. Yeah, man, it's it's just
a wonderful thing.

Speaker 4 (03:40):
It absolutely is.

Speaker 2 (03:41):
Nineteen Media Group has blessed us in a lot of ways.
But between you and I, man, we've made this thing
really really running on the baseline and excited that we're
able to continue that the amazing guest throughout the years
and twenty twenty five going into twenty twenty six, but again,
thirteen years overall hitting into this man and this it's
been a blur. There's been alive the same time. We're
a little bit older, a little bit more gray, a

(04:04):
couple more eggs and bruises here and there too, but
we keeping it push.

Speaker 1 (04:07):
They say long in the two us say long in
the twoth Is that what that is?

Speaker 4 (04:11):
That's what some people will say.

Speaker 3 (04:13):
I'm still trying to keep mind, I'm still trying to
keep mine together. You know what I'm saying, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (04:16):
Fine wine, fine one, find one.

Speaker 3 (04:19):
Anyway, We've got a great show on tap for you
and yours and a little bit Sean and I will
kind of, you know, kind of give you an outlook.
We we always try to do this every year New
Year's resolutions. You know what, what do we want to
be thankful for? What do we want to look forward
to for twenty twenty six? And with everything that is
going on already in the NBA at the outset of
this NBA season, I think you'll probably be on board

(04:41):
with a couple of resolutions that we've thrown out there.
And then also in a little bit, we have a
great guest on board to kind of bring us back
to the place where, you know, a couple of months
ago the NBA was you know, basically ran ran through
with a litany of issues regarding the gambling scandal, and

(05:03):
so we have on board with us a great guest
from the ESPN family, Kevin Pelton, will be joining us
to kind of discuss a little bit more of where
the NBA is on that and to probably put us
in a better spot about what the interpretations are going
to be, how they're brainstorming, you know, to kind of
help move them forward, to move the game forward, and
also the NBA as a league forward with regards to

(05:25):
that scandal. So we got a lot going on, and
again we appreciate you and yours for hopping on board
with us. Be sure to get up a man shot
at the Warren shot you get at me at game
Face Leader shows Twitter handle at NBA based on available
on all the major platforms, so you know where to
find us. Go to www dot the Base one, NBA
dot com if you want to check out not just
this episode, but also the archive of all of the
episodes that we've dropped in laid out for you over
the illustrious years of our podcasting. Also, if you see

(05:50):
us on the YouTube channel, we'd like to say hello
to you and you and yours. And if you see
the blue and white logo down in the lower corner
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Media Group running these street. So be sure to go
to www dot nineteen MediaGroup dot com to not only
check us, but also check out the family of great
content creators that are part of the nineteen Media Group family.

(06:11):
Coming up, Sean and I will get right into the
digs with our New Year's resolutions, but first we got
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It's good to be right, coming up, Sean, I get
into our New Year's resolutions. Don't go anywhere. Based on
NBA podcasts, it's coming back, Calie Warrenshaw, based on NBA

(08:02):
podcast Time for us to do a little New Year's
resoluting or resoluting. So listen, it's the New Year's right.
We're on the precipice of twenty twenty six. We've already
had a pretty exciting twenty twenty five, the outset of
the NBA season with some prize teams you know, in

(08:24):
the upper echelone of each respective conferences, some surprisingly disappointing
teams that are bottoming out at the bottom of their
respective conferences. But like anything, man, it's always about refresh
and reset, and maybe this is an opportunity if they're listening,
hopefully they are. That definitely means like my word Shaw

(08:44):
uses the word cachet, definitely means our cache is, you
know what I'm saying, moving on up the ladder board,
you know the ladder a little bit, yeah, you know,
moving like the Jeffersons.

Speaker 1 (08:53):
But maybe if you are someone who is.

Speaker 3 (08:57):
You know, receptive to other perspective and things of that nature,
maybe these resolutions that we will offer might spread a
little bit of chore, joy and positivity as we move
forward into twenty twenty six.

Speaker 1 (09:11):
And I'll let you start it off, mister Shaw.

Speaker 2 (09:13):
Well, the mine Year's resolution, some of them are not
takes at all. I think this is things that we
know to be true. But it's my final plea, you know,
as twenty twenty five bands that we head into the
new year, let's let's really like just let's reset it.
So I'm gonna get my chalk ones out of the
way really, really really quickly. The first one for me

(09:34):
is gonna be Golden State. You know what time it is.
Jonathan Kaminga's part ways like, can we can we come
to resolution Golden State Mike dunleeby Steve Current Company. Can
we just say, you know what, this Jonathan Kamen isn't
for us, and he knows that we are not for him.
Let's move him on, find a way to figure some
things out, and I will say this will lead me

(09:56):
into by very next resolution before we give your take
on that is for the Dallas Mavericks, we gotta let
the stink of Nico Harrison and the Luca Danchis situation
kind of just let it go. So as a result,
that means you need to fully embrace and rebuild around
Cooper Flag under the Nico Harrison regime, You've tried to
thread multi timelines because you had Anthony Davis and presumably

(10:19):
Kyrie Irvin coming back as well too.

Speaker 3 (10:22):
As a nice Avengers feel to what you just said,
I just wanted to let you know.

Speaker 2 (10:26):
But ad consistently consistently vialing the injuries. Now we get
a report before we aired that, Chris Haynes says, hey,
the Warrior is just sniffing around Anthony Davis. I don't
know if kaminga is enough kaminga Butler and whatever picks
in essence to make a Davis the old work, but
I think this is a new Year's resolution that could
potentially work for both of those teams specifically. I don't

(10:49):
know if they need to work with each other for resolutions,
but I do think Dallas specifically needs to say, listen,
we understand what Nico Harrison did was wrong. Anthony Davis
is not somebody who's reliable. Yes, you will be selling
some pennies on the dollar, but maybe you can recoup
some draft picks and air Goo forego a good portion
of the season, maybe get another good draft pick this

(11:10):
year that could be your own. Like, so many things
need to happen here. So I'm going to stop there
with those two. Specifically, Golden State move away from kaminga.
Dallas fully embraced Cooper flag, and that might probably means
trading Anthony Davis and maybe even Kybrierra.

Speaker 4 (11:24):
Your thought's funny. I want to put I.

Speaker 3 (11:26):
Want to I want to put you in a in
a tenable position, Shaw, because I know how you personally
feel about the Golden State Warriors. I know that you
have been kind of like you're done. You're done with
the dynasty of the war Warriors. Like I think in
a way, you know, you've animated in certain points that
it's like, all right, I want to start talking about

(11:48):
something else. I want to feel like talking about something else.
And so you're hoping that anyone can kind of put
the Warriors out of their misery from them being relevant
when we look at them and we're like, they're not
as relevant as I think we are wishing them to
be or hoping them to because you know me, I'm
a dynastic kind of guy, right, Like I like seeing dynasties.
Kind of when I see run its course, I want

(12:10):
to say that the players allow it to run its
course because they no longer can keep up wherever the
trend is with the NBA. But when it's being cock
blocked by management, being cock block by you know, the
NBA and its egregiousness and marketing and things, and I
look at that and I keep saying to myself, like,
these are two perfect teams to which you kind of
kind of brought together in this in this quote unquote

(12:31):
timeline and gave me my Avengers Doom day doomsday moment
right like, Because here I'm sitting there saying to myself,
I'm like, Shaw, are you saying that you're willing you
wanting the Warriors to get rid of Kaminga, who you've
never been high on, to save Kaminga because you believe
that Kaminga could be serviceable, has actually usefulness, can actually

(12:53):
be something that you could be fate in favor of
of for another team simply by the Warriors letting this
part of the drama go. Or are you saying this
by saying they need to do this, because I just
don't like seeing a team like the Warriors operate in
this kind of manner with the player who they clearly
are not on board with, and they're allowing this thing

(13:15):
to kind of fester and manifest something that really is
not going to bold well for them two three, four
years down the line.

Speaker 2 (13:21):
I think it's I'm trying to do right by Kaminga
to some degree, because at some point everybody has blame
in this in this scenario, and I think we know
this and not to rehash it.

Speaker 4 (13:30):
And relitigate it over and over and over again.

Speaker 2 (13:32):
But ultimately Kaminga, he just needs a different situation and
even if it go back to the report that Chris
Hanes is saying out there that Dallas is well luke
warm on Golden States potential offer for Anthony Davis. So
that means the third team needs to be involved and
doesn't mean Kminga goes to Dallas. If Kaminga goes to Sacramento,
who seems to really want and Mere Phoenix really wants
them or some other team like, it doesn't matter. But

(13:52):
I think from Golden States lens because you have to
as long as you're going to keep Steph Curry around,
he's going to make you just good enough to be
relevant and for everybody to be like all right, well
maybe you know you know what I mean.

Speaker 4 (14:04):
Like you have that, but to really put the acceller
right on there that.

Speaker 2 (14:07):
You need, then you need to continue to build a
roster around which air go means mortgaging some of your
future to some degree. Is we've said a lot with
like the lebron led teams, like the virtue of that
player being there alone makes you have to go for
it like it just is what it is. So I
don't mind hitching your wagons to Steff Curry, But if
you're going to do that, then you have to fully commit,

(14:28):
and I think the COMMINGDA piece is hindering their ability
to fully commit, especially not only for the bad jusual
around the locker room, but even the assets that they
could potentially bring in to ultimately help the roster.

Speaker 3 (14:39):
Okay, so yeah, I and look, I just wanted to
let you know that I believe that these are great resolutions,
and I think just in urset of that, the fact
that to your point, if you're going to build around
Cooper Flag, then you've got to let it all go,
which might mean at the expense of no longer keeping
Kyrie Irving, who actually is a fan favorite, But I
think you have to be realistic about what you're going

(15:03):
to get by having Kyrie Irving and say, playing next
to a Cooper Flag type player. You know, this still
doesn't mean that they're going to address clearly the issues
that they will be lacking that they no longer had
when they had a Luka Doncic on their team who
was just whatever, though he filled whatever those holes were offensively,
but to the tenth degree. So you're never you're probably

(15:25):
never going to get there will be years from getting that.
But to your point, I completely agree with you, and
I think it sound whether or not that's something between
the Mavericks and the Rolden State Warriors to possibly figure
out bit It wouldn't be completely a bad thing. But
I do think that part of this is not just
about the players, but the circumstances by which the players

(15:47):
are situated to the rosters and why they're still there
or should no longer be there. I think that goes
a long way in determining the course that both of
these franchises will be going in the next three to
five years. And it is a realistic expectation for Dunleavy
Junior net who's the the the inrom or who is
the general manager.

Speaker 2 (16:07):
Now they're splitting in between Michael Finley and I'm forgetting
the other other individual, right.

Speaker 3 (16:13):
That is something that I think they have to be
realistic as far as their assessment goes, you know, knowing
that they do have good players, good parts, but it's
with you know, rotten, it's it's it's it's it's just
underneath it. You can clearly tell that the foundation is
decayed and that they need to that they need to
start clean. I'm gonna just quickly throw mine out as

(16:35):
as it's kind of like a it's a little nuanced
type of thing. But I believe that with New Year's resolutions,
there's new beginnings, there's new recess. We talked about this before.
I think it's apropos that we bring it back up again.
You might think that I'm hating on Zion.

Speaker 1 (16:50):
I'm not.

Speaker 3 (16:50):
I'm actually saying, Bro, it's time. It is really really time.
If you're Joe Dumars, bro, I think you better let
it go. You know what I'm saying, like real talk.
You know what I'm saying, Love Tko. You did what
you could, salvage what you can. Right He is healthy.
Right now, he's showing you he can score plus twenty

(17:12):
points per game.

Speaker 1 (17:13):
Give you some nominal rebounds. He's a good player.

Speaker 3 (17:17):
There's going to be a team that is gonna need
his services, you know, if maybe he finds his bully
ball attitude at some point, maybe playing with a team
like the Pistons or the Magic or whoever. I don't
care who it is, but if you're the Pelicans, you
have got to get ahead of this time to move
on from Zion Williamson. Not only does Zion Williamson need
a new beginning, But so does Joe Dumars and that

(17:38):
Pelicans franchise. This is an opportunity to do it, do
it clean. Nobody from New Orleans is gonna fault you
for it. They may actually patch you on the back
because you're finally up and did it when it needed
to be done and not waited when you were forced
to have to do it and got nothing for it.

Speaker 2 (17:53):
You know, I like the sentiment, right, And it's interesting
for me because the Pelicans have been okay, I think
they're five of their last seven they've won or something
something along those lines, like they've been playing decent basketball,
ironically with Zion primarily coming off the bench. Now, that
doesn't forgive the sins of the past, right, I think

(18:13):
we all know. And with this it's like, let it
be somebody else's problem. So I fully would embrace that
for Joe d and company there to just say, listen,
z it's.

Speaker 4 (18:24):
Been a hell of a ride.

Speaker 2 (18:26):
Like you said, it is probably better for you as
well too, and let's just like, let's let's leave these
expectations of what you're supposed to elevate our franchise too,
because it clearly hasn't happened. And I think again it's
one of those situations where just a change of scenery
would make a lot of sense, you know, for for
for everybody involved.

Speaker 4 (18:42):
So yeah, I like that one for Ze.

Speaker 1 (18:45):
All right, so where are you? Where are you going
with your New Year's resolution?

Speaker 2 (18:49):
You know, I'm gonna do the two bagger again too.
They're not they're not related at all. But again I
think the other one is Giannis. Listen, stand on business,
just just call it done. We know what it is here.
Our guy Amo came on here, you know, not too
long ago. It was indicating like, yeah, what are you
doing pretending agents are running your Instagram and all this
other stuff. Then over the weekend, you know, depending on

(19:10):
you listen to this. You know, he gets into it
with Chicago Bulls because he's he's kind of grand standing
a little bit and bos bitch has you know, like
the line of the year.

Speaker 4 (19:19):
I guess he's not because the Bulls don't want to
trade for him.

Speaker 2 (19:21):
So he signed to wind dunk on us when the
games out of hand, like who do woots?

Speaker 4 (19:26):
I love it, I love it, I love it.

Speaker 1 (19:28):
We we you know, we have to do a segment called.

Speaker 3 (19:32):
What else some dudes be coming up with some you
know what I'm saying, with those little get those.

Speaker 1 (19:38):
Get back, get back, that's it.

Speaker 2 (19:41):
And then the old Chicago Bull announcer states he can
calls him Ucci Man, and that was very Vucci Man
like to kind of go out there and give Gannis
that work and give him a full clip on that.

Speaker 4 (19:50):
John.

Speaker 2 (19:51):
But ultimately, I think that's just needs to happening, right,
so don't need to believe with that anymore too. And
then our last one is really minor. It's I mean,
it's super minor. But I looked I came into the sea.
He's saying, Hey, I understood what the Wizards are trying
to do. By keeping Chris Middleton and CJ mccalum around,
gets the young guys a veteran presidence, the stability around.
Colum has had an atrocious year. He's playing a little

(20:11):
better as of late, but it's been atrocious, and I
think it's because he's playing listless basketball for a team
that literally is going nowhere.

Speaker 1 (20:18):
So you can clearly tell.

Speaker 2 (20:19):
Yeah, maybe maybe he's more.

Speaker 1 (20:22):
He's more.

Speaker 3 (20:23):
He's more busy as the president of the NBPA right
now than.

Speaker 2 (20:26):
He and I think he has more to give and
can and can be better served on another roster. So
I'm not going to excuse his poor play. I think
it's a it's a five factor of the result of
the team being as bad as it is. I hope
and presume he's being a great locker room presence. But
I think this would be good for them as well too,
and maybe they can get some potential assets in addition

(20:47):
to moving if they move CJ on to a contender
who could utili as a scorer or even somebody to
come off the bench. I know CJ wants to be
a starter now, et cetera after coming off the bench
for years, but he might just be better served, as
you know, a microwave scorer who gives you decent playmaking
and of some great leadership in the locker room.

Speaker 4 (21:03):
So that's my new resolutions with the Wizards. You're going nowhere?

Speaker 2 (21:06):
Why let CJ and even Chris Milton into a Lusser
degree kind of just toll on the roster.

Speaker 3 (21:12):
One thing I wanted to add on to your point
about about c J McCollum, because listen, I think CJ
McCullum is a really good guard. You know what I'm saying,
Like I think he's a good, solid shooting guard. I
still think he maybe has a few years left in him.
I don't know where you know where he is because
you know how you know, he's been kind of dabbling with,
you know, being an on air personality and and I'm

(21:34):
not saying that that has distracted him from his responsibilities
as being a basketball player for a franchise, but you
can clearly tell that the Washington Wizard style of offense
does not match how he plays right, especially coming from
where he came from in Portland. They're not similar systems.
And you can clearly tell that he just doesn't believe.
He doesn't fit, he doesn't belong, you know. And I

(21:54):
just think there may be a team that could definitely
utilize him and give him kind of like that second gear, maybe,
you know, a second opportunity, so to speak, to revitalize
what has been a relatively decent career. We saw that
with Contavious Colwell Pope when he found his second win
playing for a franchise in the team that obviously utilized
his skill set so much they needed it, and so

(22:16):
he went out there and executed. That could be the
same thing with CJ. McComb but I you know, I digress,
but I like that perspective. The only one that I
wanted to throw out as far as New Year's resolutions
and in my perspective is new attitude. And I say
this for three particular players, Devin Booker, Jalen Brunson, and
Polo bon Carrol. So earlier before you remember, I was
talking about how I want to see the villain Devin Booker.

(22:37):
We've seen a little bit of it, but I haven't
seen enough of it. And I'm telling you right now,
if we're gonna still buy into this Phoenix Suns team
being a player in the Western Conference. While I like
he's elevating his guys, there is going to come a
point there's gonna be a stretch in the season where
he's gonna have to be that villain Booker He's and
I don't know if if maybe he just likes seeing
Dylan Brooks be Devin Booker ish with his offensive scoring capabilities,

(23:01):
but I need to see a little bit more nasty
and Devin, you know, the Phoenix Suns are just still
not that type of team. They may have to make
a deal, make a move, whatever, They's still not that
type of team. That's exuding that level of toughness that
we thought that by having Dyla Brooks next to him
that would kind of kind of kind of bring that
out of Devin Booker.

Speaker 1 (23:19):
So I need to see a little bit of that.

Speaker 3 (23:20):
There are two other players who I really need to
see more of that from Jalen Brunson Paolo Bonkira. And
I say that because with Jalen Brunson, while I want
to buy into the Carl Anthony Towns perspective that through
the for the Knicks to get to the NBA Finals,
Carl Anthony Towns has to be that guy. The only
way that we see that is when Jalen Brunson acts

(23:42):
like that guy where he shows you as a as
the smallest man. Pardon me, and my phone just went
crazy on that. Probably agree with where I was coming from.
But if Jalen Brunson is that guy, he basically is
showing the rest of the team that they've got to
tough en up as well too. They got to bow
up as well too. When he does, the Knicks plays
so much better. I'm not talking about just defensively, I'm

(24:03):
talking offensively as well too. They show and they exposed
and impose their will when you see that. You saw
that when in that in the finals against the Spurs
in the Emirates Cup, And you just don't see enough
of it at times because I think he really defers
to the dynamics of what his roster. You know what
the roster looks like with Og and Bridges and Hart
and all those guys. He wants those guys to flourish

(24:25):
and shine it. And he shows up in the fourth
quarter and becomes a fourth quarter man. But I still
think that there's needs to be toughness the Magic. There's
such a conundrum and I don't understand this. Do you
know that Pablo gon Carol is not even the leading
scorer on their team right now? He is not even
top He's not I was just looking at this. He's
not even top thirty scoring in the NBA. There is
no way that the Orlando Magic is going to be

(24:47):
believable as a top three team if he is not
scoring north of twenty five points per game.

Speaker 1 (24:53):
Right now, he is barely at twenty. There's I don't
know what's going on with him.

Speaker 3 (24:57):
I don't know what's happening, but he needs to kind
of get he needs to start getting into his badass
bag a little bit, and he needs to start imposing
his will, like what everybody kind of saw the latter
stages of last year that got the Magic into that
conversation of the team you just don't want to play
If bon Carro is not going to be that guy.
It may bring that conversation that you brought up a

(25:19):
little bit earlier that may have sounded conspiracy theorists a
little bit and saying are the Magic better off playing
without Bond Carroll? And I think when you see things
like that, that to me is what stand out more
than any I mean three really different and dynamic players.
I think to kind of tackle there. I mean Booker
for me is somebody who does have a shriek, has

(25:39):
some villain in him as well too that you want
to see it maybe sustained alongside Dylan Brooks there. But yeah,
I think Phoenix is better than expected, and you know,
maybe they didn't need another piece of ness to sit
her or make things happen there. For me, bruns In
you know, continually perform.

Speaker 2 (25:52):
At an MVP level top five all the time, and
what we saw he did on Christmas Day as well too,
Like I have no will comms with Brunson and I
think with Mike Brown there they are trying to fit
under kind of a new regime, especially offensively.

Speaker 4 (26:03):
But I think, yeah, we all know Brunston needs to
try a little bit harder on the defensive side.

Speaker 2 (26:07):
And with bon Carroll, this is the conundrum as you
look to you know, what do the all Endo Magic
do with him long term as he's not having the
great season, not having a breakout season that the Magic
would have hoped, and they've been an up and down team.
You know, they're still and it's easy. You just kind
of feel like, oh, it's going to be all right.
But with bon Carroll, yeah, I'm looking for a little
bit more of a little bit of Zestin's Ziel.

Speaker 4 (26:26):
For him coming the second half of this year. So
I think that's a great resolution there. Brother.

Speaker 1 (26:31):
Yeah, man, listen again, these are resolutions. Take them as
you will, but hopefully they're there to encourage and enlighten
so that we get to see more meaningful basketball from
these particular teams and players, and also we get to
see a lot of great moves take happen, you know,
basically happen. By the time do we get to the
NBA trade deadline, you know, because we embrace the chaos.

(26:55):
We love chaos in the NBA because the NBA gives
us chaos. A Cali Warren Shop Baseline NBA podcast coming up,
we have our special guests, Kevin Pelt will be joining
us to talk about the NBA's approach and position of
where they're going to be when it comes to the
gambling scandal and the anti taking solutions that they're coming

(27:19):
up with.

Speaker 3 (27:19):
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slash Baseline to get twenty percent off. Coming up, Kevin
Pelton joins us here Don't Go Anywhere Baseline continues Cali

(28:37):
Warnshaw Baseline NBA Podcast. Today, we have a great, great
guest joining us. If you follow the NBA beyond the
box score, you'll already know his work. He's one of
the most respected voices in basketball analytics and coverage, helping
fans understand not just.

Speaker 1 (28:51):
What happens in the league, but why.

Speaker 3 (28:53):
Senior NBA writer and analyst for ESPN Kevin Pelton is
joining us today. Kevin, thanks for hopping on board with
us this week and happy knew your teeth.

Speaker 4 (29:00):
Happy New Year.

Speaker 5 (29:01):
Yeah, thanks for having me and appreciate that the flattering
intro that probably goes way too far.

Speaker 1 (29:07):
Oh please, your work makes it so easy for us
to flatter you.

Speaker 3 (29:10):
So so we're really glad that you're on board with this. Obviously,
you know, a few weeks ago, I'm sorry, a couple
months ago, you know, the NBA had been rocked with obviously,
you know, the gambling scandal, and it still has teeth.
Fortunately for the NBA, there has just been a lot
of compelling NBA basketball that is being played and so

(29:32):
maybe some of the luster and attention about the scandal
has kind of taken off. However, we do know that
that sham Stranja has has reported that, you know, the
NBA has really been digging its heels and really kind
of unlayering this and trying to put things in his
proper perspective, especially about the anti tanking and so they've
been brainstorming, and you know, I know that you've been

(29:54):
following this as well too, and I think one of
the things that people really need to understand, and it's
not just about the players and the scandals itself, but
it's also about how it's impacting the culture, the way
that the NBA wants to continue to move forward with engagement,
engagement with the players, the fans and everything. Just wanted
to get you where your perspective is about. You know

(30:15):
what you've been hearing, you know, in the background. What
you've been kind of, you know, keeping your eye on
on the expectations about where the NBA is about trying
to handle this situation with anti tanking and with the
way that the players are involving themselves when it comes
to these type of extracurricular activities.

Speaker 5 (30:35):
Yeah, and not just players obviously, Like I'm based in Seattle,
go down to Portland regularly for games, and there you
have the coach of the players, Chauncey Billups, who has
not been with the team since opening night. And to
your point about how this has sort of been overshadowed,
like it's not a big day to day storyline. What
I've been down in Portland at games. You know, Thiago
Splitter just kind of feels like he is the coach,

(30:56):
and it's interesting how quickly that happened. But I think
the fundamentale that we're sort of getting at here is
the NBA it's sort of an insider trading problem really
more than anything, like it's not a fixing games problem.

Speaker 1 (31:10):
I think that we're worried about.

Speaker 5 (31:11):
It's this notion that there's all this information in the league,
particularly about injuries and to a lesser extent and we'll
get into tanking about team's intentions and their motivations that
is known internally and is not public, and that creates
this opportunity for people to leak that information for gambling
purposes and create an advantage. And that's sort of what

(31:34):
you know, Terry Rogier is to a degree accused of
doing what Jouncey Billup is quite clearly accused of doing
as part of this indictment. And you know, we've seen
similar situations in the past that are unrelated to this
John Tate porter with the prop bet situation. So you know,
there are some fixes on the gambling side in terms
of what kind of bets we allow, but with things
like the Damon Jones also being a part of this,

(31:55):
and Chouncey Billups and Terry A. Rochier, the main issue
is like how can we close the gap between when
the Lakers know that Lebron James is going to play
and when the public knows that Lebron James is gonna play.
So that's part of it, and then also kind of
the taking element as well.

Speaker 2 (32:11):
Kevin, I want to ask, like, so Shams wrote this story,
you know, recently, and there's a lot in it, right
and I think it's conlluded to. There is the gambling aspect,
but then there's still the issue of the tanking aspect
that was happening I guess before before gambling became such
a situation to some degree, right, But now they're kind

(32:33):
of merged because in some ways one does well the
the gambling can impact the tanking, right, so like it
becomes kind of like one overall thing. But it do
you have any sense is the league not necessarily overreacting,
but are they overcorrecting in it in any way? Or
is it just because Adam Silver He's had a very

(32:54):
interesting I say commissionership, right, He's dealt with a lot
of different things, right as he's had to push the
league into new heights, and there's consistently different things that
he's changing and tweaking. Is this just kind of the
latest thing in that or do you feel like this
was this is a necessary, necessary step on the right direction.

Speaker 5 (33:13):
I think it's probably a necessary step. Well though ask
me until when they actually decide something, because you know,
there were a few possibilities with regards to tanking specifically
that Chom's reported about recently. One of those the idea
that you know teams are going to be prohibited from
getting top four picks in consecutive years. That to me
feels like it would be an overcorrection. And it's specifically

(33:34):
in response to what's happened in San Antonio, where you
get Victor woman Yama. They still weren't very good the
first year that gets Stefan Castle. Last year much improved,
but then Wenby misses the second half of the season
or the post All Star break with the deep Frombosis
and Loew and Bold, they look into Dylan Harper, and
I get why teams are frustrated about that. But one
of the things to go back a step, like when

(33:56):
we talk about tanking. Anytime I write about this, you know,
you get a thousand responses from people. Everyone has their
solution of, oh, this is how we're going.

Speaker 4 (34:04):
To fix tanking.

Speaker 5 (34:05):
But the number one thing I tell people is like,
it's easy to fix tanking. The draft isn't tied to
those standings. Boom, we just fixed tanking. No one has
any incentive to tank now. But the goal is not
to do that because I think we agree that that
would probably make a worse league if we were not
to give you know, the weaker teams better draft picks
at all. So we got to find some way that
balance is getting weaker teams better draft picks, but also

(34:27):
not giving teams too much incentive to intentionally lose cans.
And I do think the other two proposals that Chomps
talked about, which are you know, sort of changing what
sort of protections are allowed on traded picks specifically tied
to the lottery, and then also you know, cutting off
the standings at some point so we don't see the
really extreme tanking that you know, to your point about

(34:47):
whether it's an overcorrection, this is something that my ESPN
college Tim Bonteps and I wrote about last year in
March because of the fact that we were seeing, you know,
kind of these new tanking strategies. The Toronto Raptors would
play their star or for the first three quarters and
then like a preseason game, they wouldn't play in the
fourth quarter, and it was kind of making a force
of thing. So from that standpoint, I don't think it's

(35:08):
an overpraction. I do think it's overdue to to try
to address this again, Kenned.

Speaker 4 (35:13):
Kenn sorry, Sale, we can get it.

Speaker 2 (35:14):
So I kind of like laugh because I think I
called it quiet quitting or somebody utilized that terminology like
last year, and it really did seem it was a
real situation that teams were not, hey, we're always going
to find a way to get around it. But is
it just that as well too, like there'll always be
a new way to kind of circumvent or figure out
a way to like, hey, well, we want we want,

(35:36):
we want this thing to happen, so this is what
we'll do next.

Speaker 5 (35:38):
Yeah, as long as the best players tend to come
with the top draft picks, there's always going to be
some sort of incentive to make sure that you get
up there. I do think, you know, the protected picks
often are tied to the worst of it. So you
saw this last year with Philadelphia, where you know, they
were the the top sixers, is my ESPN colleague to
McMahon joking refer to them because they only kept their

(35:58):
pick and so of going to Oklahoma City if he
was in the top six, So they had huge incentive
to try to make sure that their pick was as
good as possible. And one of the proposals is let's
do away with that altogether, and we'll see it this
year with the Utah Jazz because there's his top eight.
So now what it says is you can cut it
off where if you are in the top four, are

(36:20):
you actually drawing in the lottery, you get to keep
it because we acknowledge that teams don't want to give
up the number one pick in a trade, or you
can cut it off of the lottery, but none of
these in betweens that give these teams its incentive. You know,
this goes back to Dallas at the end of the
twenty twenty three season. I think that was where you know,
they shut down Luka Doncic when he was healthy and

(36:40):
they still had a chance at the play in last
year at that year, so that was really particularly egregious.
So there's all these situations we see where you're trying
to get to a certain spot because you want to
make sure you keep your pick. That to me is
the worst of what we see. And then also you know,
it naturally gets progressively worse the last six months six
weeks of the season. So I think the a variety
of ways that you can sort of get to that

(37:01):
same idea of let's not you know, make it so
the teams have to worry about every loss, you know,
clicked as many losses as possible at the end of
the year.

Speaker 3 (37:10):
Is Kevin Pelton joining us here, senior writer at ESPN
dot com joining us here. You can also catch them
on on Blue Sky. I want to go back to
something that you were talking about, Kevin, about like this
this this this desire and this need to quote unquote
fix tanking. I know we're going to kind of get
a little bit more into the digs of specifically where

(37:31):
the NBA is regarding the anti tacking tanking part of it,
but you had mentioned something about like almost everything is
being co mingled in the translation of what's considered tanking,
especially by.

Speaker 1 (37:42):
The motive the motives.

Speaker 3 (37:44):
Operendi of what the uh the organizations are are doing,
whether it's the organizations or maybe it's just you know
that the coaching staff and and and whatever the directives are.
Do you think that you know, just from what you've
been reporting and what your colleagues have been reporting, that
it just seems like it's so easy. It's kind of
like what's going on right now with the scandal, right

(38:04):
like everything is being commingled into quote unquote a gambling
scandal when it's not actually what that is. That's a
derivative of it. But the overall actions, the intentions of
those actions, I think, is what's driving it. Do you
find that that maybe the NBA is trying to kind
of coalesce all of that stuff under one thing that
we want to use the word. The trigger word is tanking,

(38:27):
and you know, anti tanking, anti tanking this, anti tanking that,
And the solution is this is to stop tanking. When
it's not necessarily stopping tanking, it's just stopping a portion
of what is driven what's conceived as tanking.

Speaker 5 (38:40):
Yeah, I think the most important two words in this
conversation are unintended consequences because we see this all the time.
You know, the look the NBA has been trying to
take steps to curb tanking since I guess you would
say certainly since the introduction of the lottery, but even
before that they had a coin flip for the number
one text. There was always some method of we can't
just say it's these singles, worst team gets the best pick,

(39:01):
because we know that's too easy to game that system. So,
you know, there's a variety of different things, and the
most recent one was in response to the Philadelphia seventy
six ers and Sam Hanky and you know, just kind
of throwing away entire seasons as part of the process.
And what they did is they clearly made being the
worst team in the NBA a lot less valuable in

(39:23):
the lottery. And we saw that just last year, where
you know, Utah and Washington the two teams with the
worst records in the league.

Speaker 4 (39:30):
I think it was I.

Speaker 5 (39:31):
Forget who Charlotte was the one team that had a
bad record that did end up in the top four,
but everyone else got pushed, you know, down to five
and six because of the fact that now we draw
for four spots instead of three, and there's not as
good odds for those teams with the worst records. But
the flip side of that is they also, you know,
those odds have to go somewhere, and they went to
the teams you know, eight, nine, ten in the lottery.

(39:53):
So you get Cooper Flag going to Dallas Mavericks after
they were in the play and you get Dylan Harper
going to the San Antonio Spurs after they were competitive
most of the season. And what that has created is
more incentive for those teams sort of you know, to
tank really late it like most of the season you're trying,
but then late in the season you pull the plug

(40:14):
and try to get as far up in the lottery
standings as you can because now there is a very
real chance of getting one of the top handful of picks.
So that's sort of one of those ones where you know,
if you do too much to make it negative for
the teams with the worst records, you're accidentally incentivizing the
teams that are just outside the playoffs to try to

(40:34):
lose as much as possible in March in April. And
that's that's one of those dials that you know you're
kind of probably going to be fidgeting with for a
while to.

Speaker 4 (40:41):
Figure out what's the right balance.

Speaker 2 (40:43):
And I think that's part of like this conversation, Like
the through line too, is that, hey, it's there's a
lot of tinkering to try to figure out what's going.

Speaker 4 (40:50):
To be Ryan We's right today and not be right tomorrow.

Speaker 2 (40:53):
The notion really, honestly for me, that you can be
so close, you know, to this situation and then ultimately, hey,
you kind of push it towards the end. Adam Silver
has wanted the league to have a lot of intrigue
and like these unintended consequences. Someone that brings positive, you know,

(41:14):
interests and intrigue to the team, but also to the league.
Like I was like, oh, but it also brings controversies
like oh, well it's a lottery fixed, you know, all
of a sudden, Oh they trade Luca.

Speaker 4 (41:22):
Now they get Cooper flat or you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (41:24):
Like there's there's so many like bylines and through things
that kind of go there as well too. And I
also want to ask the league still has a rule
in place where on the other side, you can't you
can't give up two first round picks in the consecutive years, right,
So like for that, for the rich of the NBA,
you can't do too much to get good, and if
you're poor in the NBA, you can't do too much

(41:45):
to get bad. So like, I don't know, do you
think Adam is getting this right or the leagu I
don't want to say Adam is the league getting this right?
Because there seems to be punitive things on both sides
of the spectrum, for the for the league.

Speaker 5 (41:56):
Yeah, it's basically, you know, one of the things I
often think about with the be a collective bargaining agreement,
and these aren't specifically collectively bargains, they're sort of a
different thing. But like basically they never take anything out
of the collective bargaining agreement, they just sort of write
new things on top of it. So, you know, the
in nineteen ninety nine they introduced the mid level exception,
and now there's like three different types of mid level

(42:19):
exceptions and all sorts of new rules related to that,
and it's like this increasing complexity.

Speaker 4 (42:23):
So I think that is.

Speaker 5 (42:24):
One thing is Liken, can we make it a little
simpler In some ways might be a nice way to
do things, but usually that isn't the case. And I'll
admit that my preferred solution for this is adding even
much greater complexity than what was proposed by you know
or throwing out there in the shams is reporting.

Speaker 3 (42:43):
So going back to a little bit of what we
were speaking about in the protection of the you know,
the top four in their lottery picks and listen, I
think this has been great reporting by you and your team,
especially to stay on this because I think people really
need to kind of keep themselves aware about what's going
to probably take place, especially as we start getting you know,

(43:03):
on the other side, with the way that the NBA
has been very topsy turvy so far this year, there
are a lot of unsuspecting teams where they're caught in
a very interesting space, and I would think that, you know,
it's easy for us to kind of assume that this
is a team that may have overachieved, right like, for example,
are the Phoenix Suns overachieving and teams like you know,
even what the Philadelphia seventy six ers are doing right

(43:25):
now with their draft pick. Could they be in a
space where this would be a great opportunity for them
to maybe do something different to really put together a
solid team. But is it fool's gold just simply because
joeanbid is not healthy and it is not right, and
so there's a lot of machinations taking place of it
that could really kind of make this a whole interesting discussion.

(43:45):
But I think the thing that I wanted to ask
you is that when it comes to limiting the pick
protections for the top four or a lot of really
only and aimed at removing mid lottery gaming in practice,
you know, how do you think that they may that
may reshape front office strategy around trading first rounders and
structuring those protections.

Speaker 5 (44:04):
Yeah, you get a lot less room for creativity, which
you know, that's that's got its pros and cons. Like
it becomes you know, a little bit easier to follow
those picks, whereas like you know, this year the six
ers is top four, last year was top six, and
you know, Utah has been descending gradually, like it can
get extremely complicated. It Also, I think lets teams feel

(44:25):
a little more comfortable making those trades because you know,
for example, Washington, I forget what the protections exactly were
on the pick that they traded in the John Wall trade,
which seems like decades and decades ago, and that trade,
that draft pick Ping Pong went to Houston originally obviously
went to Oklahoma City, and the elpri and Shngoon trade

(44:47):
went from there to New York. And I want to say,
like us mun Jang, and I think New York has
held on to it ever since, and like Washington is
kind of known, well, there's no chance we'rever really going
to give up that pick because of the protections on it.
You'll only say top four on it, Like now, there's
no way you can guarantee your key. You know, the
best case scenario is it's like fifty to fifty going

(45:08):
to the lottery.

Speaker 4 (45:09):
You know you're gonna keep it. So yeah, is.

Speaker 5 (45:11):
Washington maybe a little less likely to give that pickup?
And does that affect the trade deadline or you know,
offseason trades that that is one thing. But I think
I think because that tends to be the worst of
the tanking, that those side effects are worth it to
make that change.

Speaker 2 (45:27):
Kevin, do you feel like between Philadelphia to some degree
Dallas to some degree but maybe Okay, see I hear
there's just a lot of discontention around with the Thunder
for the way that they've been able to build a
rasher and some people feel like it's not fair because
they did tank for multiple years in a role and
we're able to you know, get Chad and Jalen Williams whatever,

(45:49):
but they traded for SGA and so part of this,
too is just if you have the right front office
in great scouts, right, like how much of this is
gonna be punitive to that structure or maybe forced teams
to enhance that structure like, hey, well well now we
can't do this, so we need to be better in
our scouting so to speak, But do you feel like,

(46:09):
is there any one team that's kind of pushed the
league to make some decisions that is thinking about making
here Now.

Speaker 5 (46:15):
I don't think so here because you know Oklahoma City.
The funny thing of it is, you know they did
get Chet with that number two pick that there was
it was their own, but you mentioned they got Shay
via trade. They also got Jalen Williams was part of that.
That pick was part of the Kawhi Leonard or the
Paul George trade that sent Kawhi Leonard to the Clippers.
So you know, the best picks they've gotten in some

(46:36):
ways other than Chet Holmer and have not been their
own picks, which is kind of fascinating. I don't think
this is a response to any one team. I think
it is more about just kind of the way we
still have things start to get out of hand last
March and then knowing that this is going to be
another strong draft class that you know, executives and scouts
are so excited about the players at the top of

(46:58):
this year's draft. You know, Jared Peterson, Cam Boozer, aj
debandsap that we're probably going to see some pretty extreme
chanking this March in April and wanting to get out
ahead of that with this is a solution. Maybe it's
not gonna be in place for this year, but at
least acknowledge that we know that this is a problem
and we've got a way to try to solve it.

Speaker 3 (47:20):
Do you think that part of that reason, because you know,
maybe they've projected the the abundance of what this upcoming
class is going to provide us with that it was
imperative for the NBA to really kind of roll this
out and to address this as is in order to
maintain the integrity. Because I will say this, and I

(47:41):
don't know if you'd agree with me on this, Kevin,
but my thing is is that over the last couple
of years, it's it's kind of been hit or miss,
and I think the NBA has been doing a lot
to try to bolster up the abundance of what the
draft class is supposed to me, and I think it's
only been able to hit basically because we've had a
lot of good standouts and they've been in a good

(48:02):
position to really kind of, you know, go out there
and make a name for themselves and really kind of
move us into a different direction. Of you know, how
the game is being played, and they're really starting to
shine and elevate, But I don't know if it's coming
with the same fervor when they were coming out of
college after playing you know, for one or two years
or whatever. I feel like this is again the reset

(48:24):
button where the NBA is going to take advantage of
the abundance of what the NCAA class is going to
give us access to. And so I think maybe this
was a way for the NBA to try to protect
that part of it, that branding part of it, because
I do think that the maybe it's some way, shape
or form, they don't want this to be a missituation
where they have to relitigate and explain why a player

(48:44):
of an elk of one of the Boozer kids is
playing in a seam and a system that clearly had
a different agenda about what they were trying to do
when they were getting this guy and the circumstances of
what happened from before. Not protecting these picks, not protecting
what's going on, is going to impact a lot of
what what's going to wind up happening when it comes
to DRAFTNA.

Speaker 5 (49:03):
Yeah, I mean, there's sort of a larger question about
whether sending the best prospects to the worst teams does
in some ways hamper their development. It's a question that
I studied several years ago. I wrote a piece looking
at kind of basically when the top picks went to
teams that were un expectedly good, or lower picks went
to teams that we run expectedly bad, you know, via
trade or what have you, or just you know, the

(49:25):
team ended up being better than the next year. What
sort of happened in those cases. And what I found
is that the players who you know, went to the
better teams than you'd expect tended to develop more in
future years, even though they naturally played less as rookies.
So that was kind of an interesting case that you know,
maybe this idea that you just want your rookies to
play all the time isn't as valuable sometimes as having

(49:47):
them earned those minutes. But you know, I think is
to the timing element of it. Look, it's not a coincidence.
When the NBA first really tried to tried to make
the changes most recent changes the lottery that we've seen,
it was not only the six ers that were driving that.
It was also the Andrew Wiggins, Jabari Parker, Joel Embiid
draft that everyone was hyping up before the season, is

(50:09):
like teams are going to be throwing away the entire
season because this, like it didn't end up the tanking
probably didn't end up being as bad as we anticipate.
And it's funny because that draft obviously did not pan
out at the top other than Joel Embiid the way
that people were you know, projecting. But you know, those
kind of flashpoint drafts do I think draw more attention
and more scrutiny on.

Speaker 2 (50:29):
This topic, Kevin, My last question on this topic is
this here you know from the lens of league guidelines
and rules, right, I think indicated like this is not
something that could actually happen.

Speaker 4 (50:41):
Before this year's draft, right?

Speaker 2 (50:43):
And how involved is a players Association when it comes
to the machinations of these types of changes or is
this strictly at the league level or is there any
type of consulsation with the PA as well too?

Speaker 5 (50:55):
Yeah, they don't really have any say in this one. Specifically,
when those the most recent changes passed, it was strictly
voted on by the Board of Governors. So, you know,
I think the good news. From the standpoint is, I
do think that reducing tanking probably works to the benefit
of players for the most part. I mean, it does
create some opportunities for younger players late in the season

(51:16):
when when stars get shut down, I do think we'll
still see that. That's the other thing that's worth mentioning
here is even when teams don't have their own draft pick,
you know, like for example, I mean New Orleans does
have some control over their draft pick this year, I
don't think we're going to see Trey Murphy the third,
you know, playing all the way through the finish line.
If the Pelicans are long eliminated, because there's just an
inherent risks to playing basketball, you know, that is probably

(51:38):
going to influence that too. But I think you know,
we've seen in the NFL is going through the same
situation this week with the Giants Raiders game that's being
played as if we record this, and you know, the
discussion of Max Crosby being shut down for this game
and whether you know this was against his wishes or not.
I think there's some star players who probably at times
want to be able to play, and you know, if

(51:58):
the system changes so that teams aren't so incentivized to
lose as many games at the end of the season
as possible that they may prefer that setting, so you know,
it maybe end up win for those players.

Speaker 3 (52:10):
Kevin Man, we really appreciate you jumping on board with
us to kind of really highlight this, and I'm hoping
that this won't be the last time, you know, that
we be able to get you on because there's obviously
a lot of other endeavors that are taking place, but
it's just great knowing that you are on it and
you know, kind of keeping your eyes peeled and we
really appreciate the work that you're doing because it really
does help enlighten our listeners and understanding. It's more than

(52:33):
just the names that are tagged on it. It's also
the moves that are impacting. You know, what those names,
who those names are, where they're going to and what
the future of those those organizations and teams are going
to look like moving forward.

Speaker 5 (52:45):
Man, Well, thanks so much for having me, and happy
New Year to both of you into listeners.

Speaker 1 (52:51):
Yeah, Man, happy new Year too.

Speaker 3 (52:52):
It as well too, Man, I know that you're just
finished celebrating a little bit of comfort there to see
you know, the Seattle area is up in Hoopla. The
Seahawks are doing their thing as well too, So hopefully
going into the new year, we might be talking about
the Seahawks doing some some major work out there in
the in the playoffs.

Speaker 5 (53:10):
Yeah, we're hoping for a super Bowl in the new year.
That's that's the West for twenty twenty six.

Speaker 1 (53:15):
And for ab expansion for that matter. Well, here you go,
here we go.

Speaker 3 (53:21):
The NBA is better when the Sonics are in the conversation.

Speaker 5 (53:26):
I love hearing that.

Speaker 3 (53:28):
Kellie Warrenshaw Baseline NBA podcast, my Man Shaw, our special
guest Kevin Pelton joining us.

Speaker 1 (53:34):
We like to thank you and yours for hopping over
board with us this week.

Speaker 3 (53:37):
For each and every single one of you, guys, have
a happy and a safe new year, and we'll catch
up with you next time.

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