The Autopsy Report – Magic & Rockets: One-Hit Wonders or Rising Powers?

s the 2024–2025 NBA season concludes, we turn our analytical lens to two teams that showcased promise: the Orlando Magic and the Houston Rockets. In this installment of The Baseline NBA Podcast, we dissect their seasons, evaluating whether their performances were fleeting successes or indicators of sustained growth.

Orlando Magic: With a roster brimming with young talent, the Magic made significant strides this season. We delve into their defensive prowess, player development, and what strategic moves are necessary in the offseason to maintain their upward trajectory.

Houston Rockets: The Rockets' youthful core demonstrated flashes of brilliance. We assess their season's highlights, defensive metrics, and discuss potential roster adjustments to solidify their place in the competitive Western Conference.

Whether you're a die-hard fan or an NBA enthusiast, this episode offers in-depth analysis and insights into the future of these emerging teams.

Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-baseline-nba-podcast--3677698/support.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
What's good. Everybody is your boy cal game face Lee.

Speaker 2 (00:04):
And it's me Warrenshaw and we are officially live on
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Absolutely so be sure to go to millions dot co.
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is the Baseline discussing the hot button topics of the NBA.

(00:51):
Welcome everybody, your tune to the Baseline Calie Warrenshaw discussing
the hot button topics of the NBA. We are rocking
and rolling as we start narrowing down the final stages
before we actually start talking about the conference finals and
eventually the NBA Finals. But while we have that little space,
that gap while people paying attention to the semis still

(01:14):
got autopsies to handle, right, So of course you know
everybody must think I sleep in this stuff. Actually, you know,
you know, listen, man, it's part of the professional What
can I tell you? Anyway, let me go and ride
the red corpet to my right hand man Www Dot
shot Sports at Netwig wun the PNC. My man, mister
warren Shaw repping out of Fort Layda at Florida. What's good,

(01:34):
mister show? What's what's the Deally bro? Where's the uh's it?
Where's where's the scrub head piece?

Speaker 2 (01:39):
I yeah, I'm a surgeon hat man. You know, they
just called me. I got the nine one one. I
had to just run in. I didn't even have my
time to get.

Speaker 1 (01:46):
Okay, you are you got you You're You're still using
one of them pages skytel.

Speaker 2 (01:51):
Pager, so they had to wash me in. I got,
I got the scrub all, but don't have the surgeon hat.
So yeah, maybe I'm gonna have to direct from the
sidelines and let you kind of the bulk of this
one here as well too. But two great teams to
discuss here as we're in the midst of the semi finals.
As you allude to these two teams we're going to
discuss at least got to participate and it got a
little taste of the playoffs, but we're exited in the

(02:13):
first round. And we touched on little last week, but
we're going dive a little bit of deep hair this week.

Speaker 1 (02:17):
Yeah, So our focus for autopsy report this week is
going to be on the Orlando Magic and the Houston Rockets,
two teams who you know, in their own way, surprises
surpassed expectations. We'll go into you know, how they are
distinguishable between those two teams, because I think it does
have an impact on what kind of conversation you really

(02:40):
want to have about what the future is going to
look like, well what the future is going to look
like for both of these teams respectively. So great show
on tap Man and as always, we appreciate you and
yours for hopping on board with us this week. Be
sure to get in my man Shaw Asshaw Sports NBA.
I'm sorry at the Warrenshaw. I my apologies. When did
you officially change change the name in this? Has this

(03:03):
been certified? You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (03:06):
Yeah, I'm I'm not playing for blue check marks. But
at the end of the day. Yeah. Yeah, decided to
go away from the NBA specific moniker. Uh, the Warrenshaw
and all social media platforms here now to you know,
to inculpslate some of the things I do outside of
our our work here on the baseline.

Speaker 1 (03:20):
Oh yeah, because you knows official like that. You know,
you no longer warren Shaw. You're the Warrenshaw. Well so yeah,
so all other warren Shaws be careful, you know what
I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (03:31):
Well, they beat me to it, so you know, shout
out to them because they were they were, you know,
quicker on the draw. And shout out to my to
to Warrenshaw in Atlanta who does sports as well too.
He's a hockey guy. Uh but you know black individual
as well. And I was like, oh my god, It's
like it was just a wild situation. But in any event, yes,
the Warrenshaw here on all social media platform.

Speaker 1 (03:50):
Okay, I will stick to game face Lee because I
just don't know if there are too many people where
we're gonna call themselves game face Lee. And you know,
plus I also like the fact that doctor kill patients.

Speaker 2 (04:00):
This is just cool underneath the work.

Speaker 1 (04:02):
Third, yeah, okay, so as always, man, be sure to
get up a Manshaw at the Warrenshaw you can get
at me a game face leader shows, Twitter handle at
NBA based on available and automated platforms, you know where
to find us. You can also go to www dot
the Baseline NBA dot com not only check out this episode,
but also the plethora of episodes that we have our
cops for your listening pleasure. And as always, if you

(04:24):
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(04:46):
Media Group family. So be sure to go to the
website check out us and also the family of creators
that are doing their thing. Coming up, Sean and I
are gonna get right into it, man Tom, for us
to dig a little bit deeper on top report style.
You do not want to miss out here on the
baseline time now to do all topsy report. First team

(05:15):
that we are ready to put on the slab, We're
going to talk about that team in Orlando, Orlando Magic.
So back in the beginning of this of the episode
of you know, the introduction so to speak, right, what
I was talking about was Orlando Magic had a very

(05:37):
unique path to get to them to get themselves to
the playoffs. Right now, going into this season, this team
certainly was picked among one of the top top eight
teams given the success that they had the previous season.
I think all eyes were fixedly focused on what next

(05:59):
level could Piolo, Boncero and Franz Wagner take themselves too,
given the experience, the taste of the playoff experience that
they had last year, you know, being exited out by
the Cleveland Cavaliers, but just themselves because of the young
growth that this team exhibited, the defensive proudness that was

(06:19):
instilled upon them by head coach Jamal Mosley, and then
all of a sudden, when you saw that this team
kind of got out the gate a little slow but
then started picking things up the most inopportune time were
basically three fourths of their team arguably three forces of
their starting rotation decimated with injuries and all extending themselves

(06:39):
literally to where it was almost like NBA All Star
Weekend before you started seeing them getting a semblance back
of what their original starting five for the beginning of
the year looked like, and then you fast forward it.
Somehow this team managed to stay afloat, managed to stay
relevant and stay competitive throughout the course of that time
frame while they're away for their big their heavy hitters

(07:01):
bon Carro and Wagner to come back and Shaw. When
you look at this team, you look at a level
of resiliency. You also look at a level of a
roster that still was depleted in the sense that you
weren't too sure how Jamal Moseley was going to continue
to utilize the roster the way that he did to
get them in the best position to really see what

(07:22):
level of competitiveness they were gonna be up against the
better teams in the NBA. Albeit the surprise of the
Cleveland Cavaliers and you see the Boss's Celtics, and you
knew about the New York Knicks, but surprisingly this team
Shaw held their own as best as they possibly could.
So what do we make of what took place here
with the Orlando Magic and is it a sign of hope?

(07:45):
You know what I'm saying, because I think the one
thing that definitely stands out is you know what you're
getting with Wagner and Bon Carroll as the combination. The
rest of the roster, however, you're wondering, is it gonna
take another year, another season before we see a leap forward?
Or is this year missed because of that? Making us

(08:06):
wonder are the Orlando Magic in prime position and maybe
pull the trigger and do something to shake things up.
Given what just happened this past season, Orlando's in a
great situation, I think, especially with those two guys right
by Karen Wagner.

Speaker 2 (08:21):
Brothers as well too, the Wonder Brothers. Mowe got hurt
as well, But they have two guys who they can
literally build their team and a roster around. But Carroll's
extension is going to probably come up this summer, I
won't kick into the following year, but they're obviously going
to sign him to whatever max I think is going
to be available. Then they got some decisions to make
because Gellen Sugg's already signed his extension, but he was

(08:41):
playing masterfull, but only played thirty five games this year
because of the injuries. Right. They resigned Jonathan Isaacs not
too long ago, so he's got another couple of years
on this contract. So they have the bones of a
good team with good pieces. But I think, as you're
alluding to, is at our next level not even just
sign outside of the health while but can they get
deeper level play creation? Can they get consistent shooting? Right?

(09:05):
And credit to this team somehow with all those injuries,
there were still second in defenses here, So that shows
you that Jamal's Mosey's scheme is elite. You know, with
all people in on the lineup, they still finished second
defensively in terms of defensive rating. But I am concerned
about how they're going to score the basketball and how
they're going to create opportunities for themselves offensively. Outside Ben

(09:25):
Karen Wagner doing all of that, you know, and more
or less kind of just taking turns. They need somebody
to really set them up. And if you think Suggs
is that guy, if he can be healthy, great. I
don't know if he's like a true natural point guard,
but I know he's a natural defender. I know he'd
be locking people down, So I don't think you're trying
to get rid of him. I think the answer here
might be is how invested are you and guys like

(09:48):
Anthony Black and Jet Howard or do you try to
make a move like again a Cole Anthony kind of
an instant offense guy. He saved the Magic's baking on
plenty of occasions. But he is he a long fit
for this? And is there a free agents or trades
out there that you could potentially make to bolster that thing?
But for me, again, long story short, they need they

(10:08):
need play creation, and they need consistent shooting, which I
think again a lot of people are gonna say they
need those things. But Orlando is a step ahead of
the game because of their elite level defense and those
two guys that by Karen Walker.

Speaker 1 (10:18):
You know, you bring up some really interesting points. Shaw,
And I was gonna go one way more about the
player components, but I want to take I want to
go in this direction real quick with you. I think
an interesting setup can be had here right like the
Orlando Magic in a way remind me a little bit

(10:41):
about remind me just a smidge, not not too much,
but remind me a little bit more like what we
saw of how the team was structured with the Boss
and Celtics back in eighth nine, Right, you saw Doc
Rivers was able to utilize a very defensive minded but

(11:03):
yet a great floor general in a Rajon Rondo. Rondo
who was you know, obviously his achilles heel is that
he could not shoot the basketball with consistency, right, and
yet he figured out a way to get him to
exhibit the traits that were necessary to kind of fill

(11:24):
in those missing pieces to make this a complete team
for them to go on their championship run and go
on championship runs. Right. Because Rajon Rondo evolved to become
a really solid scorer, he also evolved to be a
really solid distributor. But he was always a great floor general,
always a great defender. He was always a gutty type

(11:46):
of player. I feel like the Magic think that they
may have something similar in that with Jalen Suggs, where
if he leans more into some of those attributes that
really got him the starting position, you know, to be
one of the starting guards, they may be able to
change the way that they may look at this how
they want to go offensively, right, like I almost feel like,

(12:10):
and maybe we saw glimpses of this, I almost feel
like they really want to see where boncro could be
as a point forward, right, maybe his ability to distribute
the basketball more and maybe move Suggs to more of
like that two role, because I felt like Suggs and

(12:30):
Contavious Callwell Pope very much as similar type players. Just
you know, their build, their the way that they basically
came up, their evolution of their ability to score the
basketball just to me very similar. And even now you're
not seeing KCP as a starting point guard, right, you're
trying to do that with Jeleen Suggs. And I don't

(12:50):
know if whether or not Jeleen Suggs has that capacity
to do it, don't know if it's necessary. If you
got the kind of ball creating, a ball making ball
handling skins that you get from bon Caro, if maybe
you slide that ball handling responsibility more in his hands
and have Jalen come off the ball more, maybe that

(13:11):
might open things up a little bit better. Unless they're
really leaning in on the idea that they want to
see him take that next step being the floor general,
and if so, that means that he definitely has to.
He has to spend this offseason, you know, being a
precise passer, getting guys in their spots and things of
that nature. And it'll be interesting to see whether or

(13:31):
not Mosley is going to lean on either of those
side of that spec.

Speaker 2 (13:35):
I mean, Orlando has a lot of young twenty something
guys under twenty five, right that they're still looking to develop,
including Sugs. KCP does not fit that mold. So while
I wouldn't think Orlando folks said the KCP stuff was
a failed experiment this year, I don't take it. Yielded
exactly what they wanted to from his defense and then
his three point shooting, right, It was really for the
three point shooting that they were trying to bring him

(13:56):
over here into Orlando. So going back to your Sugs point,
I think best case scenario for them is probably Anthony
Black and Suggs commingle as the one and the two, right,
and those guys give you just enough play creation to
get von Carrol and Wagner their shots, and then in
other times those guys are trying to create maybe for

(14:17):
some others. I think that's like the best case scenario. Now,
do you have enough time to let that kind of
simmer and cook and get it to where you want
Orlando to be. Where a lot of us thought they
were going to be at least a top six seed
this season before the injuries, and maybe they still would
have been had all the injuries not taking place. But
Black and Sugs with Wagner and ben Caro makes some sense.

(14:39):
It does. But can you get maybe again the name
that I know you don't love the name, but tyas
Jones type guy who is a true facilitator through and
through to come off the bench right and then backup
KCP at the two as well too, and then that
gives you some other opportunities when those guys aren't on
the floor, and that way you always have at least
somebody with a high level of basketball like you on

(15:00):
the floor. Yet it doesn't need to be tied Show specifically,
although he is a free agent, but somebody in those
in those modes who are not looking. I'm not trying
to come here and take shots away from Paulow or
Fronds or whatever the case it be. I want to
see if I can set those guys up, and then
you know, maybe that it opens up stuff for KCP
in essence to get you know, back to the KCP
we knew in Denver, you know where that three point
shot was falling in a way that was you know, prolific.

(15:21):
Those are I think the moves that Orlando can make
on the edges because but because they have such so
many young guys, I don't think they're willing to punt
on this, especially with the lead level defense that they've
been playing so far. But that's how that's the round
I would go. You know, if I'm in that front
office with Orlando, see if you know, give Black and
Sugs another year to kind of develop here. You can
decline the options on you know, some of these guys.

(15:42):
I think they have an option on Mo which I
don't think they would decline. But there's some of the
guys on this rosters, all right, you know, Gary Harris
at this point, like we know what it is like
you can get rid of that seven million dollars and
see if there's somebody else out there that can make
a little bit more sense.

Speaker 1 (15:54):
Well so, And I guess to me, part of that
is what makes sense, right, Like what is it that
you want them to specifically address from an offensive side
of things? Like all right. Remember, now they have Cole
Anthony right, and I guess maybe they're just not buying
into the fact that they see Cole Anthony as being
a starting guard, you know, for the Orlando Magic. Even

(16:17):
if let's say, for example, that you are establishing your
notion what you were saying, having Suggs and Anthony Black
as your backcourt combination, then that means Cole Anthony is
going to come in and obviously give you spot minutes,
and this, that and the third. To me, I guess
what's interesting is is this the kind of Is this

(16:41):
the kind of play where you're saying, all right, for
what we think we're gonna need, that means you're probably
gonna need to get a veteran guy to be able
to do those those things that you may not necessarily
be coming even from your role players right now.

Speaker 2 (17:00):
You know what I'm saying, Well, I think the veteran,
the veteran aspect of this team, that's what KCP was
supposed to help bring, right, is not And it didn't
go quite as deep as maybe in Detroit was will
they got, you know, Malik Beasley, Anton Hardaway and Shrewder
and all three of those guys and Tobias Harris. All
four of those guys were playing plus minutes. Orlando knows

(17:21):
it's a young team that has to develop its young talent.
So but could they use another veteran who can actually contribute,
you know, to the sauce here? I think so, And
I think it's a matter of where do you want
that person to be, because if you still believe in
the KCP stuff, well then you feel like, all right,
well that shooting, maybe it gets better, like I said,
with some other guys who are better suited to play

(17:41):
create for KCP and spray out to them in the
corners and the wings, you know, off dribbles, you know,
off the bounce rather, So that's where I think they're
where the focus is going to be in somebody like again,
a backup point guard that makes sense whilst on developing
their current backcourt, and or maybe they can get another wing.
And I just don't think the Cole Anthony situation is
something that they need to tie themselves to. I mean,

(18:02):
his contract is a mint school by NBA standards, making
thirteen million dollars, so he's not really hurting anything, but
there just won't be enough minutes to kind of go
around if you're able to bring in some other those
supplementary parts, veteran guys who contribute in those errors that
you ultimately need, which in the insence, would then make
Cole Anthony not necessarily expendable, but superpose. And I think
that's what that's the decisions they ultimately to meet. But

(18:22):
he's still call Anthony still only twenty four years old,
so like they're not trying to pun on somebody that's
still that young.

Speaker 1 (18:27):
Right, all right, So two quick points here, Shaw, and
I just want to get your perspective on them, folks.
One as a as a the team as as a whole,
as far as bench play goes. You know, where where
is your confidence level on Orlando Magic with their bench?
Do you think that they definitely have room to beef

(18:50):
that part of it up. I know we were just
talking about getting certain guys to really help fill out,
to help execute certain things that you're still getting from
your young players. But I do also lean more into
the fact that the Atlanta Magic is a team struggling
to score the basketball or struggling when their starters come
off the basketball court. They don't get the same level

(19:12):
of productivity that they're that they get from their starters,
So should the emphasis really be about bolstering up you know,
that bench, you know, like as a priority team number one?
And then my second point is is you know what
about this pace of play for the for the game,
is it more well suited that they are a grinded
out type of basketball team because they've got physical players

(19:34):
like a bon Caro and Wagner and the Wagner brothers,
even Jalen Jalen sucks. They like to be physical. I
don't know if it's necessarily that that they like to
play a slow down pace type of thing, but clearly
it seems that they're their most effective in a half
court game than it is being more open transition, which
is the style of play that you want your young

(19:56):
players kind of giving themselves more opportunities and chances to
shoot the basket. Should there be a change a pivot
or should they double down on that aspect as well?

Speaker 2 (20:06):
I mean, it's a it's it's a minute. It's meaning
in the middle. You don't want to compromise an elite
level defense, like you don't want to compromise it. That's
that's what you're making your bones on, right, And they
just need to find ways where they can be more
offensively potent and less overly relying on what ben Kroen
and Wagner have to do. Because in the playoffs, as
you saw, defenses can key in on those guys, and yeah,

(20:28):
they can still get theirs, but if they're the only
ones who are even capable under that playoff spotlight and pressure,
and then those guys end up becoming inefficient because they
just have such high usage. That's where to me they
need to get some offens in there. So I'll give
you my quick, my quick wish list. And these things
are not all realistically for all of them. But if
I'm the Orlando Magic, I'm kicking the tires on Brook

(20:48):
Lopez right again, a stretch five who gives you good,
good defense at the well. So that doesn't mean that
more Wagner is is you get rid of him just
because of the team option? But you know when the
Carter Junior still young, so maybe keep it. But then
go go Patazi do you need him as well?

Speaker 1 (21:04):
Right?

Speaker 2 (21:04):
So I think one of those guys, if you bring
in a Lopez, then I said, again, Tis Jones or whatever,
it may make some sense for them, but then I
think Also, I'd love for them to also look at
Carselbert or Ti Jerome, not Ti Jones, but Ty Jerome
from Cleveland. I think Ty Jerome is probably I was
gaying himself into a much a much larger contract that
Orlando and a lot of teams may not be able

(21:25):
to afford it. I don't know why Cleveland would have
tried to resign him, but that's somebody I think they could. Hey,
you know what if he's going to cost us, you
know he's making like two point eight right now. If
he gets into the fifteen range, and then that allows
you to get rid of Gary Harris, so to speaking,
may be Cole Anthony to make room. Then that's somebody
who's playing winning basketball at this point that gives you
some offense, whether that's starting or coming off the bench,

(21:46):
and then you can oscillate that with KCP. So those
are guys that I think, again, it's not a home
run out there that they need to make, especially with
by Karena Wagner. It's on the edges that could be
really high performing role players. Again, Tis Jones, Ty Jerome
brook Lopez, specially the stage of his career. Those are
guys who I like to see Orlando kind of kick
the tires.

Speaker 1 (22:03):
All right, good stuff, man, and listen again for a
team that went through what it went through to still
break even for the regular season, still be a playoff entrant,
you know, for this year's playoffs, and and you know, actually,
you know, give the buss the Celtics a run for
their money. I think that it's safe to say that,
you know, the Lando match, you can hang their hat

(22:25):
on the fact that they are, you know, one of
the scariest teams defensively in the NBA. And if they
reach their potential where then their offense can help supplement
what they're already bringing out or what their output gives
them defensively, this you know, could very easily be among
one of the top three teams in the Eastern Conference

(22:46):
without even breaking a sweat. Your tune to the baseline.
Calie warren Shaw discussing the hot button topics of the
NBA coming up sew and I dig into the second
team we're putting on a slab, and that be the
Houston Rockets. Are they ready for takeoff or does Houston
have a problem You'll find out on the other side.
Keep us locked here on the baseline, We're back, Cali

(23:19):
Warrenshaw basedline NBA podcast. Time for us to continue our
coveted autopsy report. Next, we got on the slab the
Houston Rockets. So we talked about the Houston Rockets a
few weeks ago. Shaw, You know how this team kind
of exist, like how they showed themselves right, You can

(23:40):
clearly tell this is another team taking yet another step.
We saw glimpses of their ascension in what they did
to catapult themselves from being a middling team that's struggling
to learn how to win basketball games to suddenly almost
put themselves in a conversation, you're previous to get into
the playoffs this year, they closed the deal, right, And

(24:03):
we don't need to toot horns about predictions or anything
like that. We just knew that this Houston Rockets team,
once they got their proverbial ish together, they were going
to be a problem for other teams in the NBA.
And they showed it, and they maintained it, and they
put themselves in the best position possible since the hardened era,
which has become a second seed in the Western Conference.

(24:25):
All well and good, love it awesome. And then you
began to see that when matched up against a very savvy,
very veteran laden basketball team like the Golden State Warriors,
that some of their young players are just not up
to snuff as of yet. And I think, now, when

(24:47):
you catapult yourself this quickly, this high a seed, even
though you're not trying to be in the moment, you
still have to recognize the moment, and the moment is
is that if the Houston Rockets have any opportunity to
maintain what they're doing, they have to address what their
current starting rotation makeup look like looks like, and ultimately,

(25:07):
ume Yudoka has to start looking up and down around
that bench and saying in himself, outside of Am and Thompson,
who I pulled from that bench role to be my starter,
I have to look at this and say, I got
to hit the reset button to figure out who are
my next level guys? Who are the next guys? And
I'm tapping into when my starters have to come off,
the have to come out the game and have to

(25:29):
help maintain a lead or help us extend a lead,
which is something they clearly struggled with in that series
against the Golden State Warriors, and at times clearly struggled
to courses of when they were trying to put themselves
in that two seed position throughout the course of the
regular season.

Speaker 2 (25:45):
Yeah, really interesting conversation that we're having here because Houston
is a lot like Orlando in terms of that their
defensive orientated, like that is what they hang their hat on.
You still struggle though, to see can their elite level
offensive guys create a lait level offense in the playoffs
and their answer to that in this year's round was

(26:06):
a resounding no and having to rely on a diminutive
but you know, strongly Fred van Vliet for the primary
aspects of their offense. This playoffs run was proved to
be problematic. Shng Gun especial against league level defender like
Draymond and so forth. What he got his numbers, they
weren't efficient and he wasn't able to have the same

(26:28):
level of just offensive efficiency throughout the course of the
playoffs as he did in the regular season where he
was even able to initiate the offense. I think at
times that brings us back to Jemmy Green, and you know,
I said on our last show that they wanted to
at least see what he would do in the playoffs
under the brightest of the lights, Could he be the
guy you know alongside Van Bleet and Shangoun to make

(26:49):
things happen? And then this year's playoffs? The answer was
a resounding no, and that I think allows them to
really say, all right, well, we need to make a
change here that puts us in the space in essence
to be competitive with a true number one guy. A men, listen,
we all know that that guy is going to be

(27:10):
is pretty much untouchable at this stage of his career,
and he's somebody who they want to be the lynchpin.
I think of what they're doing alongside whatever bookends. Do
you think that may ultimately be? But I think Houston
has the answers they need now, especially when it comes
to Jalen Green and even Jabari Smith to a lesser degree.
Is like, all right, do we have the number one
offensive option on our team? No? Can they consistently? Can

(27:34):
they go out and get one? They absolutely can, and
they have to rely on Yudokah's ability to create a
defensive culture. So that's why I think they'll be willing
to sacrifice some of these parts. So let's go through
their assets really quickly. Of guys that they could potentially
move if they wanted to get whatever name out there.
And Giannis has been bantered about, Katie's been bantered about.
But it could take a Jailing Green, it could take

(27:55):
a Jabari Smith. They have multiple first round picks over
the next couple of years. Reed Shepherd didn't even get
off the bench for them, And that's somebody. A lot
of teams are coveting out there, cam with more and
maybe even Tory Easton all some combination of those players
could be moved to get a true star, not in
the way that that Orlando is, because Orlando feels like

(28:16):
they have that in m Karen Wagner. Houston does not
feel bad. They don't feel like they have a bang
Karo evil level guy on there. So that's why they're
stiffing around the Kds and even the Yannises of the world.
And they have all the assets they needed necess to
make that happen, should they want so.

Speaker 1 (28:30):
Man, this is such an interesting conversation. Let me ask
you this real quick. You don't think Amin Thompson could
be that guy.

Speaker 2 (28:42):
It depends on the timeline, right, So if you want
to stretch this out three years maybe, you know, does
he consistently work on that jump shot and become like
an elite level slasher with a you know, respectable mid
range possibly, But each year you're kind of like, you
just don't know what the teams are gonna do. So

(29:02):
I think you have a certain level of formula right
now that puts you right in the thick of this thing.
We're second in the Western Conference, right up into a
veteran championship lading the team at England State, And got
Al said, for the same reason we just outlined, So yes,
can the men be that, but can a men be
that right next year? No? And I think you want
to continue to show him maybe the way and get

(29:23):
another veteran level guy that can maybe even help him,
you know, develop his offense that could get him to
that next level. And then maybe it's passing the torch
off like all right, bro, I'm out of here, and
Giannis is not, you know, anywhere near at the end
of his career. Pass the route they go. But if
if you believe the KD rumors and KD rumors are
all over the place Houston, Miami as well too, Again,
that seems to be probably most likely because I just

(29:45):
don't know if Giannis will be will be the guy,
but ultimately I would not. I'm not trading amend for
anything right now, and then I would allow that to
see what I can do alongside another superstar.

Speaker 1 (29:55):
Yeah, So I think what your definition is differs from
mine about what I perceie what I saw from the
Houston Rockets, right, And I think maybe that it lent
itself to having this actual honest conversation about ume Udoka
and the influence that he has on that roster. Ume Udoka,
to me, I feel like exhibits the ultimate team coach. Right.

(30:20):
He had the luxury of having Jason Tatum and Jalen
Brown for a few seasons, right, and the season in
which they got to the NBA Finals, I felt like
Udoka didn't didn't have as much of an impact or

(30:41):
influence on the versions of Jason Tatum and Jalen Brown
that I think we would have needed to see for
them to actually win that championship. And that's okay, because
if he was still around, I would be interested to
see what kind of influence he would have had on
a Chris STAPs porzingis right. I would have been to
see what kind of influences he had with Drew Holliday.

(31:04):
You get what I'm saying, Like, those guys to me
are over the top guys, like they're added pieces to
already a championship element. But at the end of the day,
my whole point was when Udoka needs to get in
the ear of his superstars, is what is he calling out?
What is he calling them to attention to? Right? I
think everybody's focus was so much about the Jalen Green element. Right.

(31:27):
My focus was more about Udoka and the influence he
had on Aman Thompson, Right, Because wasn't at the beginning
of the regular season a'm and Thompson was on the bench,
and wasn't it numerous games that we were all saying,
when is he going to start this kid? Like he
can't be coming off the bench and you're seeing what
he gives you and the Rockets think that they're gonna

(31:48):
be able to be just fine still like still you know,
executing in that kind of manner Like he eventually knew
that he was gonna have to put him out there,
and I think it was like kind of a learning lesson,
like he made Amen say you gotta show me you
want to be the starter on be on the starting roster.
You see what I'm saying. And so I felt like, Okay,
if you're gonna if you're gonna do that for ahmen,

(32:11):
is it that you believe that Amen can be your
next guy? Right? And I feel like, okay, what about
Alfred Sengoon? Right? Do you feel like he can There's
another level that he can tap into. You can tap
into those guys. And so I said all of this
sean to say, while the emphasis can clearly be on
getting a kd Or or a Yannis or whomever, are

(32:31):
you getting a bona fide superstar number one guy or
are you getting a closer Are you getting someone that
is just filling in for certain things that you know
is going to take time for the guys like the
Amen Thompsons and the Alfred Sengoons, Because that's the time
that you're allowing Udoka to really kind of, you know,

(32:53):
kind of have his his finger on the pulse of
getting them to that level, getting him into getting them
into that particular space. I'm just saying that to me,
I feel like the Rockets are a closer away if
you keep the contents of this team not the emphasis
being on having a jailing green under Ross. I think
he's interchangeable. I think he's the kind of guy that
you can actually have come off the bench as a

(33:15):
sixth guy, because to me, the keys are if you
weren't getting that kind of closer mentality from Fed van Vliet,
who showed you that he was capable of doing that
when he played in Toronto, but it's not capable of
doing it as a as a Houston Rocket that you're
waiting to see that come out of Alp Sengoon or
coming out of Thompson. I think you see it more
from Thompson that level of explosiveness than I do think

(33:36):
you see from Sengoon. But it's just interesting where people's
perspective is about what the priority should be for the
Houston Rockets, because I do believe if you get a KD,
I don't know if you're getting KD to be the guy.
I think you're getting KD to be the closer for
what the Rockets are incapable of seeing from their from
their young young players.

Speaker 2 (33:55):
I can see where you're going with that in terms
of that that delineation, especially in in type games and
clutch moments, et cetera. Specifically, that does make a lot
of sense. Right now, van Vleet ends up taking it
like the lion's share of that. I just don't know
that they can't. They don't have the salary in essence
to make it work. Les KD is going to take

(34:15):
some sort of like ridiculous basic cut, right, and so
that's not going to happen. But I think, you know,
when it comes to like a men is a guy
who they want to keep on this roster, I think
at all costs for all the reasons you alluded to,
like because he could potentially be the guy who can
be the beginner, the middle and the closer again at
some point. And that's why you know, he has all

(34:37):
the you know, all the the accolades that were heaping
upon him. Interesting happen. Interesting happened over the course of
this past week where ben Vleet and he used to
agreed to push back the deadline on his on his
team option. So that's forty eight million dollars you know
that they're kicking back until sometime in June. Now, I
don't know if it's a sign of anything nefarious, you know,

(34:58):
I think ben Vleet would like to be there he'll
you know, get probably a extension at a lesser number
where he won't be making fifty million dollars at thirty two,
thirty three, thirty four years old, but it will allow
him to have some stability I think in Houston long term.
But for some reason that contract negotiation breaks down for
whatever reason, a lot of money becoming Yeah, a lot

(35:20):
more money comes off the books, and then Houston would
almost be it would almost be malpracticed for them to
not go out there and do something, you know, really
super super slashy. So something to just kind of keep
your eye on. I don't think anything the farrest again
is gonna happen with Fred van Blee, but you know
it's I think it's a decision that kind of helps
both of them at least kind of figure out what
the timeline can be for van Blee, you know, going

(35:41):
in future seasons. But if it breaks down, then he
still has a lot more cash to spend the summer
that they would absolutely need to to continue this runway
into trajectory that they're on.

Speaker 1 (35:49):
What's the one thing that you feel that the Houston
Rockets need to address offensively and that and then whatever
that that is is it a player away or is
an adjustment that has to be made by Udoka's coaching philosophy.

Speaker 2 (36:06):
I think they need to more understand the the depth
of the bench that they have, and you know what,
who's on this roster for the long haul? So is
Jabari Smith somebody who can be a high level six
man after he came back from injury. That's the role
he ended up having to play, you know, because a
man was doing so great. I think in the in
the starting lineup, you know, do they bring back a

(36:28):
Steven Adams while it's not an offensive move, but again
it's just the double bigs, you know, you bring that
back to kind of shield shing Boon a little bit
and have him played more. For what's the deal with
Cam Whitmore? You know, is this just a guy who
they feel like as a knucklehead who's you know, a
high powered offense due but never really going to be
able to crack the rotation and then the aspect to
reach Shepherd in year two? Is he a guy who
develops that gives you to be to be the Van

(36:50):
Vleet backup or is he the Van Vleet of Parrot?
Like to me, that's what I'm saying Houston has they're
in a really great position, and you can go from
being in a really great position to a very pre
carey one, you know, with you don't evaluate the talent right,
or the talent starts to feel like, hey, I'm not
getting enough reps opportunities here because Udoka is as demanding
as he is as well too. But for me, that's
where Houston really needs to understand who they want to

(37:13):
be with the players that they currently have, because they
have a lot of guys who feel like, hey, I
could get burned, I can help, I can contribute, what's
my roleway to be in the in the championship aspirations
of this Rockets team.

Speaker 1 (37:25):
Yeah, I like where you were going, especially with the
need maybe to figure out a way to keep Steven
Adams because I do think that he can be a
valuable asset. Albeit they're not built like how Okac is built.
I think dougan Al has done a superb job in
figuring out a way to you know, utilize both Hartenstein

(37:48):
and Holmgren right. And I think that if you're Udoka
to have it have some kind of similar I'm not
saying copycat, but something similar in that I think can
bold well. And listen, you're gonna be matched up against
them in the Western Conference. You look at the other
teams that have a very similar build in their roster, right,

(38:10):
Minnesota Timberwolves and Nas Reed and Rudy Gobert. You know
what I'm saying, Like, so this is a thing, you know,
Aaron Gordon, Nicola, Jokic, You're gonna have to You're gonna
have to contend. You're gonna have to deal with that.
And I think what by doing that as well, too,
it opens up It frees up the ability to allow
your most athletic players to go and be athletic. The

(38:32):
Amen Thompson's, the Jalen Greens. Listen, despite what people might
say and think about Jalen Green, and he's just not
that guy. Whatever. You cannot deny the kid's athleticism. And
I keep saying this, you can't teach what this kid
can do when he is locked in, right, Like when
I say locked in, is he's leaning on the fact
that he has that level explosiveness and everything like that.

(38:54):
What he's lacking is his basketball IQ, his ability to
read the game to allow his attributes to really shine through.
I think he would be better served that he doesn't
play in that starting that starting lineup, because if you
really think about it, Shaw, they play too slow for
a Jalen Green. Jalen Green needs to be up and
down the court until he's able to shoot the basketball

(39:18):
with efficiency and effectiveness. Right he's able to execute it
in a half court set. I think he needs to
get out and run and Adoka's style of offense and
the players that he has around him is not going
to allow him to do that. That's not to say
that they can't evolve, that things can't change that, but
I just genuinely feel like, you know, we keep asking

(39:39):
certain players to play a certain kind of way, like
it just get up the next day and just go
out and do that. It doesn't happen that way. It
takes time, it takes work, and it takes execution. But
in the meantime, it doesn't mean you put what got
him into the NBA on the shelf, you know what
I'm saying, Like to me, there something can be said.
When you have a guy who can come in and

(40:00):
do what he is doing, it's a matter of putting
him in the best position possible to go out and
execute and do those particular things.

Speaker 2 (40:07):
So to meet you being a Jailing Green apologist, I
think my question to you is, like, can he exist
on this roster if they're able to do another move,
even if you like demote him, if you will to
and say, hey, we want you to be a high
light six man. Wait, such, do what you do?

Speaker 1 (40:21):
Right? So, I'm sorry to finish your point. That's the
problem if you're saying that it's a demotion, right, if
you're not selling him on the importance of what he's
going to be able to do to come off the bench,
what his key role will be coming off the bench
or being that six man. You can't sell him on that. No,
you can't keep him.

Speaker 2 (40:37):
No I'm not. I'm talking to you like they can't
tell him that. There's not a chance he'll buy that.
I'm saying, but again, and you got a move. I mean,
if we're from the media side of like, oh, they
demoted Jailing Green to this to be a six man.
But if they don't, if I guess my question is
can they do that and get somebody else, you know,
a a true closer if you will, or is that

(40:58):
is that a move you're just proposing in general with
the roster has currently.

Speaker 1 (41:01):
A constructor with the roster that's currently constructed. He should
he should. I don't want to. I don't like using
an idea right here for that team to say he
should be running the second unit because you really don't
have a second unit. He's he he argued, he can
be someone that can give you forty points right Like,
It's not like he hasn't shown you he's capable of
doing it, but it has to be in a space

(41:22):
where that shot selection and that ability to go out
and do it is allowing him to do it. Meaning
he's gonna take the ball to the basket, he's gonna
draw contact. Where is it that you're seeing in that
Houston Rockets rotation like that, you know, a starting rotation
where that's gonna allow him to be able to do that.
He can't do that next to Fred van Fleet. He
doesn't do that well next to Alfred Singoon. So what
I'm saying is, yeah, that's why you go and get

(41:44):
a KD because with KD he doesn't have to do that.
He doesn't have to be the most athletic guy for
him to take effective shots. You see what I'm saying
that's a matchup situation that you want to exploit, and
it also frees up fan Fleet and and Sengoon. But
what happens if if Katie's shot isn't falling. What happens
if the Houston Rockets are playing against a team that's

(42:05):
nullifying the effectiveness of their ability to hit those mid
rangers or get those open three looks. That means you're
going to need someone who's going to quicken the pace up,
who's going to put the defense on their heels at times.
You need a change of pace kind of guy. That's
what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (42:20):
All I'm saying though, is that from financially speaking, you
cannot get another high level guy there without giving up
one of Green Shengoon or Van Belief or one of
those guys has to be gone in essence for a
higher level guy that we've been talking about in the
ilk of Katie and Giannis to be on this roster,
because those guys can only come their view. So I

(42:43):
think for Jalen's standpoint, for what you're proposing, would he
then be acceptable to a role because a higher level
professional is currently a roster.

Speaker 1 (42:53):
So to your point, from what you just said, earlier
if they're kicking that option delaying it so to speak
with Van Fleet, right, is there that possibility that the
Rockets might be considering saying, okay, move off from Van Fleet,
Let's see what we can do in keeping Green, because

(43:15):
you can probably keep them probably on the cheap, to
still be that guy, to how he could probably be
used over the next year or two, so that the
emphasis and the focus is to go out and get
said needed player, whoever that superstar is. That's all like.
But what I'm saying is, though there's.

Speaker 2 (43:34):
Still so let me ask you this though, So do
you think Van Bleed at thirty one years old and
forty eight million dollars next year? Yes, with the resume
that he has is more valuable than Jelling Green at
twenty three years old and thirty three million dollars. So
you're looking at a difference of eight years in terms
of NBA experience, but also a difference of fifteen million

(43:56):
dollars roughly, you know, between to for somebody who was
eight years older.

Speaker 1 (44:00):
I hate, I hate to answer your question with an
ambiguous statement, but I'll say this. I think it depends
on who that next player is.

Speaker 2 (44:11):
Right, Well, okay, So there's the reason I asked the
question that way, right, because I think again, if it's
if it's if it's Phoenix or Milwaukee, right, they're trying
to reset their timetable, and at the end of the day,
Milwaukee specifically, they're just going to be like, well, yeah,
give us the youngest guy who gives us the most,
like the most the pathway to potentially getting somewhere, you know,

(44:33):
later on down down the road. I think if your Phoenix,
maybe that's different. Maybe you say, okay, we can get
you know, Van Vleid in here, you know, for KD
and whatever other stuff that not on one for one,
if that were to be if uston where to be
so bold that to get off the van Vleet thing.
But I think it is depending on which route Houston
is trying to go while they're trying to sniff, And
that's also going to determine, like their trade partner, what

(44:55):
do they want back in return if you're trying to
get one of those three guys in this just to
make the salaries notch. But that's where I think again,
when it comes out to Green, who's on the roster
for him to be able to accept a role change
for the betterment of these Rockets.

Speaker 1 (45:10):
Right, So okay, let me now flip it back to you.
Who do you think will put the Houston Rockets roster
in the best position to thrive even if they can't
thrive or if they can't eat. Between van Fleet and Green,
you get what I'm saying. Like, what I'm saying is

(45:32):
is Jalen Green to me is a scoring guard in
the sense that I think he needs to score the
basketball to feel like he's got a place with the roster.
And maybe that's not what Udoka truly needs, and maybe
that's why it's easy to lean to fan Fleet. However,
when you look at van Fleet and his style of
basketball and his style of play, that means if you're

(45:54):
saying van Fleet is the man, that means you need
guys that are patient, guys that are which is why
van Fleet and Durant clearly could make sense and possibly,
you know, moving off from that. But then also again,
you do that at the risk of saying you're not
gonna have a whole lot to work with from your
from a roster perspective. Once you get past van Fleet,

(46:16):
where's your athleticism coming from? Maybe that's just not the
style of basketball that the Houston Rockets are gonna exhibit.
You know what I'm saying. You're not gonna tell me
that Van Fleet is suddenly gonna become what you mull
call it Jose Al Alvarado, you know what I'm saying.
Or he's gonna he's gonna be racing up and down
the court on fast break opportunities and points. He is
a he's a pace kind of guy. He's a guy

(46:37):
that moves at a at a certain pace and and
guys can get with him on doing that. The Kds,
the Sengoons and all of those kind of guys. So
that's the reason why I'm saying it's gonna be interesting,
because I think if you are the Houston Rockets, you
still want there to be versatility in your roster. You
still want there to be some kind of a change
of pace, even if there are guys that you have
on the roster that might play the same kind of way.

(46:59):
You know, they may shoot the three, but one shoots
the three pretty quick, and one guy you gotta get
him set in order to shoot those threes, you knowe
what I'm saying. And so that's where I'm looking at
the Houston Rockets and saying to myself, if you decide
to keep a Jalen Green, you're keeping him because you
recognize that in order for him to be effective for
what you need, you've got to use him as a

(47:21):
change of pace. You can't force him at this structure,
in this juncture, given the catapult that the Houston Rockets
have taken. You can't force him to suddenly play like
how you're seeing the veteran guys like, because even Singoon
to a degree, is more veteran like than Jalen Green.
You know what I'm saying, look at what Singoon was
doing before Jalen Green even came into the picture. I

(47:44):
think you're gonna get more mileage out of him in
a combination with him and Van Fleet than you will
see Green in Singoon.

Speaker 2 (47:51):
I mean, that's a possibility. I think the one thing
that we can maybe close on to you is that,
you know, could they entice somebody on a Dylan Brooks right,
and you know he makes twenty plus million dollars, so
not a not a ton by NBA standards, But if
it's Brooks and Jabari Smith, you know, for some semblance
of packages and picks, and so forth and so forth.

(48:11):
Is there a guy out there offensively that might make
sense for them? I think again, we're we're focusing primarily
on the two names that have been rumored, you know
by by Houston to be the most. But we don't know,
especially after this playoffs, like what ends up happening, who
becomes available you know that might be at a high
level offensive gunner out there for them to entice themselves
or talk themselves into. So all I know is the

(48:33):
Rockets have a lot of options, a lot of great opportunities,
with an amazing runway ahead of them and a great
front office now that's kind of turned things around here
from years past. And you Doke on the sidelines, who
just feels what he's doing.

Speaker 1 (48:45):
Yeah, when you say it with a smile and a wink,
because it's it's apropos. This is what two weeks two
of the second time of three weeks you're you're you're
smiling brightly on the on.

Speaker 2 (48:58):
The for them, you know, stided for the future of
Amen Thompson. I think if you're following the NBA like
he's one of those those those twitter x darlings, if
you will, I really like he just kind of loves
his game, you know, until they don't, you know, something
will happen. Is like, all right, well he hasn't developed
fast enough or so forth, but right now I love
it on the upper trajectory where everything he does we're
just kind of, you know, google guying over his athleticism,

(49:19):
his defense, you know, his tenacity, you know, and and
those are things that are amazing. But at some point
he's gonna have to deliver on the potential, and then
it's gonna go to shift the other way, like, oh, well,
how come the men didn't develop as fast as we
wanted to. But right now I'm enjoying the high.

Speaker 1 (49:32):
Yeah, yeah, hey, we can all enjoy them. Enjoy the high. Yeah. Absolutely.
You know what I'm saying. I think I'm gonna I
think I'm gonna go hit a dispensary right about now. Anyway,
good stuff altogether, man, good autopsy report, man. You know,
didn't the scalpel, didn't hit. Didn't cut so deep on
these teams, man, because they got a nice future ahead

(49:54):
of them, you know what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (49:55):
So to two really good young teams who can utilize
maybe some more or different veteran presence, than they currently have.
Both extremely well coach, they have those defensive principles that
a lot of teams seem to be lacking today. So yeah,
this was a fun one and we're excited for the
resurrection in the twenty five, twenty sixties.

Speaker 1 (50:13):
Absolutely once again. Man, we'd like to thank you and
yours for hopping off board with us this week for
the baseline Cali Warrenshaw, I'm sorry the Warrenshaw. We appreciate
you guys, you know we do, and we'll catch up
with you next time.