Who'll Run the East? 2025-26 NBA Conference Power Tiers w/ Dan Favale

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
What's good. Everybody is your boy cal game Face Lee.

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Speaker 1 (00:45):
This is the Baseline discussing the hot button topics of
the NBA. Welcome everybody, your tune to the Baseline Cali
Warrenshaw discussing the hot button topics of the NBA season
is about to get started. So of course it's a
preview time, our favorite time of the year. As always, Man,

(01:06):
I love to roll out the red carpet. We got
a special guest on board. This is going to be
an exciting episode previewing the Eastern Conference. Then we go
ahead and lend my services to the myth, the man,
the legend, my man, mister warrenstarw repping out of Fort Florida, Deville, Florida.
What's good, my brother, hey man, Christmas is early for us.

Speaker 2 (01:25):
Man.

Speaker 1 (01:25):
We get to start bringing the gift that keeps on
giving for our listeners with the Eastern Conference preview.

Speaker 2 (01:31):
Yeah, we're starting with the lesser air quote lesser of
the two conferences.

Speaker 1 (01:35):
But you've been saying after three years, come in now, bro.

Speaker 2 (01:38):
Well, you know it's all dependent on again perspective, right,
But I think you know, when we talk about the
NBA just restarting, it gives us a lot of you know,
joy in that fulfillment. And we have an amazing guest
to kind of help us break down the Eastern Conference
where I think, while you know the the the going
word is that it's a lesser of the two conferences,
I think there's going to be a lot of excitement,
and as we get into our conversation, we'll see there's

(01:59):
a lot of parody in the East's world too that
I think is going to add to that excitement of
having this conversation.

Speaker 3 (02:05):
I'm excited because I finally want to see us get
back to saying Beasts of the East. I want to
feel like we got enough drama and representation for this
upcoming season for us to start using those monikers. Then
the least of the East. You know that's that's that's
my settiment. So anyway, our special guest probably need his

(02:27):
own introduction. He has been a savant as far as
covering the NBA. We are so excited to have him
on board to help us preview the East. Our man
Dan Favali is going to be joining us in a
few moments and listen, this is us breaking down. This
is us giving perspective of what we think is going
to happen for this year's season in the Eastern Conference.
So you do not want to miss out on this.

(02:48):
As always, be sure to get up my man Shaw
at the Warrenshaw or get at me a game based
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(03:09):
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been putting it on for your listening pleasure.

Speaker 1 (03:26):
Coming up, Sean I.

Speaker 3 (03:27):
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buy Raycon dot com slash baseline to get twenty percent off.
Coming up, Sean and I and our special guests Dan
Favali break down the Eastern Conference. Don't miss it here
on the baseline and we are back Cali Warrenshaw Baseline

(04:54):
NBA Podcast. Time for us to do our twenty twenty
five twenty six Eastern Conference preview with our special guests.
He co hosts Hardwood Knocks his savant covering the NBA,
especially with the Eastern Conference. Our man Dan Favali. Dan,
thanks for hopping off ball with this brother.

Speaker 4 (05:14):
Oh no prompt, Thank you guys for having me.

Speaker 3 (05:16):
Yeah, man, listen, we are excited whenever we have an
opportunity to chop it up with other with our contemporaries
regarding our interpretation and even your interpretation of how we
think the Eastern Conference is going to play itself out.
I was just talking about this one, man Shaw, because
the running joke has been the East has been the
least for the last couple of for the last few years, right, Like,

(05:38):
people don't ever speak with confidence about whoever's coming out
of the Eastern Conference in order to hoist the O'Brien trophy.

Speaker 1 (05:45):
However, I believe that there may be, you know, a
changing of the guard a little bit.

Speaker 3 (05:49):
I want to get back to us talking about the
Beasts of the East, because I really do think that
there is a competitive spirit that is arising with the
talent that is now at the Eastern Conference, and I
think with the drama that happens Droe the course of
the regular season, with everything playing itself out, it's an
opportunity for the East to kind of re represent itself
so that we could put that be next to them,

(06:10):
you know what I mean?

Speaker 5 (06:12):
Yeah, I think I can get on board with there
might be more confidence there this year. For sure, I
would worry about the top level of it. Whereas we
have the knicks and the calves that people know about,
and it's if you look in the West, the thunder exists.
So this makes that that's couched with everything. But it
feels like there might just be more bona fide title
threats in which team could go all the way and

(06:35):
win it in the West, and I'll be interested to
see what is the team in the East that could
or two that could emerge in the East that fits
that bill that could then maybe tip the scales when
you're looking at, like again, the top level of these
conferences in the East favor.

Speaker 3 (06:48):
And I think the one thing too, before we get
into our discussions of it, I think, to me, how
these teams perform through the course of the NBA season
I think will resonate with our confidence level. Because for
some of those teams that are contenders right, like we're
going to talk about them in a few minutes, a
lot of it is not so much what they do
through the course of the regular season. They're pretty solid

(07:09):
as long as they stay healthy. It's how they perform
going into the postseason. It's that level of confidence and
their ability to make adjustments. And I think what's going
to really sharpen their tools is who they're dealing with
when they get to the playoffs, right And I think
we saw a little bit of that last season and
some of the matchups in the East. So we'll get
into all of that, but again, no better person to

(07:30):
help break it down than you, my man, Dan so
let's get right into it. We'll start from the bottom up, right,
you know what I'm saying the bottom up, we want
to make sure we show some love to the teams
that might not be in that play in playoff picture. However,
we want to at least give a little credence to
whether or not there is some upside to their future.
And we'll talk about those lottery teams, right. So, out

(07:54):
of the consensus, we basically came down to the Charlotte Hornets,
the Washington Wizards, and Brooklyn Nets, and Dan, I want
to start with you on this. You know what are
we actually saying of these teams? Who do you feel
has more upside? Who do you feel like, Man, there's
still a lot of work left to do, or we
have no clear cut idea what their future is even

(08:16):
going to look like even when we get to the
end of this season.

Speaker 1 (08:19):
Of the lottery teams that we have basically selected.

Speaker 5 (08:23):
Yeah, you know, I think you kind of neatly put
them into like three buckets within this tier where it's
the Nets. We just have no idea what they are,
what they're gonna be. We just know that they're not
trying to win, and they've made that very clear. The
Wizards I think have the highest long term upside of
this group when you look at all the young talent,
they've ascended the cat flex where they have moving forward.
They're another team that's clearly also not trying to win.

(08:43):
And then the Hornets are just super interesting because you
finally surround the Melow ball with shooting.

Speaker 4 (08:48):
They probably have.

Speaker 5 (08:49):
The worst center rotation in the NBA though right now,
and Ken Lamelow stay healthy, so how much does that
shooting matter. They're the team that might have the most
immediate upside of this group. But when we are to
go through these other teams in the East and you
look at the depth that they have, especially the proven depth,
you start to wonder, Okay, Charlotte, they might be a
good team with their best lineups. Are they a squad

(09:11):
that could kind of pull back as the season goes
on and lean more into the future like we've seen
them do basically each of the past two seasons nearing
the trade deadline.

Speaker 2 (09:21):
One of my favorite teams I think in this tier
is going to be my lead path startling is going
to be the Washington Wizards, right, I think just because
they finally for me, the level of competency, knowing that
they needed to reset. We talk a lot about this
over the course of the summer, so they were kind
of played in the middle. We're really sure what they
wanted to do, and they still have some veterans that
probably need to be extradited. I think from this roster
maybe by season zen and obviously if you talk about

(09:42):
you know, Chris Middleton and CJ McCollum. But I think
to get things going now they've reset, and I'm really
excited and bullish, if you will, on what Cam Whitmore
might be able to do with all the reps and
all the touches that he's going to get out here
in Washington. So all of the three, I'm most excited
about them, But I agree with Dan in terms of
Charlotte because like they want to be competent, but it
starts and ends with you know, LaMelo being able to

(10:04):
stay on the floor. Like it's like there's just no
whether nothing else even matters. If he's not on the floor,
this team cannot really perform at the level that they
that they hope to do, so I'd be I'm interesting
to see if Charlotte at some point gets frustrated or
if he goes down with another injury, then do they decide,
you know what, maybe this is not the guy because
his name was I would say was in trade rumors,
but a lot of people thought he may he should

(10:25):
be considered to be traded, and that didn't actually come
to fruition, and maybe his value is too low right now.
But those are the two teams that I have at
least the most amount of interest in Brooklyn. As I've
said many times, it's it's going to be the Michael
Porters junior at Camp Thomas show. God bless you know
all the reps and the rims that are going to
have to absorb those shots from those two gentlemen.

Speaker 3 (10:46):
Do we do we make of anything with this combination
of of Porter and cam Thomas, because clearly there are
two different motivations here of of of what success might
look like for both of these guys, right Like one
clearly is saying I want people to buy into the
fact that I'm a legitimate scorer in this NBA, right

(11:08):
regardless if I'm on a good team or a bad team.
And one guy is like, I don't want people making
it seem like I'm riding off the coattails I was.
I thought that I contributed a lot to the Denver
Nuggets winning an NBA championship, And as much as I
felt like I got held back playing under Malone, here's
an opportunity for me to play on a team, albeit bad,
But here's an opportunity for me to playing a team

(11:30):
and even playing in division where I'm going to get
the spotlight put on me if I actually start shaking
bacon cats. You know what I'm saying on a night in,
night out, basis improve my worth as being a high
potent score. You know in the league. Are we intrigued
by that? I want to I want to get your thoughts.
Warning and Dan jump in real quick on that.

Speaker 2 (11:47):
Well, you know, one of the things I saw, I
think it was another podcast that actually put it out there.
It was like, how did the Nuggets keep Michael Porter
Junior like tame all these years? Because he's had a
very wild and robust summer, Like it's been like, yo,
who is this guy? So him now going into Brooklyn,
I think with all the reps that he's going to
get Yeah, I don't know that he's proving something. I
think it's an interesting way to phrase it right, I

(12:09):
think he's always felt he is whoever, you know, who
he thinks he is really in terms of being like
this high level score, and I think he almost feels
like it's going to be his right, not even that
team he's approved, but it's his right, innocent to kind
of command this team. And I'd be interested to see
what cam Thomas has to say about that, especially after
accepting a qualifying offer that he feels disrespected by. And

(12:29):
both of these guys are quote trying to prove their
proverbial worth. I just don't know how that's going to
lead to in terms of wins and or the team
chemistry that you would hope a young team in Brooklyn
is trying to ultimately build. I'll throw it over to Dan.
Your thoughts on kind of MPG situation.

Speaker 5 (12:45):
Yeah, I think I'd be more worried about him than
cam Thomas, just because for all that Cam Thomas is not,
he has shown that he can generate offense out of
nothing that has never been in Michael Porter Junior strong suit,
and so it might be cool to see him have
more on ball touches. But is he someone and I'm
not saying cam Thomas is he's not elevating the play

(13:05):
of guys around him. He's still trying to figure out,
like can he generate his own shot on a consistent basis.

Speaker 4 (13:11):
And I think the other variable.

Speaker 5 (13:12):
Here is they drafted like five guys who want the
ball in their hands too, and like most notably yeg
Or Demon and Nolan Trejire.

Speaker 4 (13:19):
I think those are guys they're gonna want to play
a bunch.

Speaker 5 (13:21):
And so I'm also curious to see specifically with Michael
Porter Junior because he has another year left on his deal,
but we also know the Nets aren't married to him
long term. If he's not fitting Jordi Fernandez's ethos on
the offensive end, it really wouldn't shock me if this
is someone that just gets shut down with some mysterious
injury by like December, January or February. So the same

(13:42):
thing could happen to Cam Thomas. But again, you need
someone on this team who can generate offense for themselves.
We at least know Cam Thomas can do that, MPJA
has yet to prove it.

Speaker 3 (13:51):
You're two to the baseline Calie Warren's show and our
special guest Dan Favali from Hardwood Knox joining us as
we're continuing our coverage discussing the Eastern Conference and doing
a preview.

Speaker 1 (14:02):
All right, so let's switch gears, right.

Speaker 3 (14:04):
And and and again this has been great because now
it kind of leads us into who we think is
playing worthy, right, Like, we understand the scope of that.
They're not lottery bound, but they're but they're but they're
not quite just ahead of the guys that we think
are for certain going to be within the playoff picture. Right,

(14:26):
So these are considered our playing worthy teams. And we
basically have it lockdown to two teams. And I think, Dann,
maybe you have one additional team that's on the cusp,
and I'll let you speak to that in a moment.
But we've got the Chicago Bulls and we've got the
Toronto Raptors. I'm gonna start with you on this one, Shaw,
What are we making of both the Bulls and the Raptors? Hey,

(14:48):
the Bulls they were in the dance, right, they they
put themselves in the dance, and year in and year out,
you look at this roster and you keep saying to yourself,
how is even conceivable that they are even in these
kind of conversations you would have thought by now somebody
put the ball down, so to speak, and made them
at some point a lot of rebound team. They just

(15:11):
refused to be that kind of team, and I admire
them for it. But again, are we talking about them
being so so good or them just now finally this
is the downward trend that we're gonna finally see with
regards to the ensemble of talent given what they've done
over the last year and a half, which is basically
give away the giveaway all of their main players right
to other teams. But we still don't know for certain

(15:34):
where this team kind of looks collectively under Donovan.

Speaker 2 (15:38):
Yeah, I think for me Chicago And I said this
on another show ironically, I was like, they take their
annual you know, megage trip or mecha trip to the
play in like this is this is.

Speaker 1 (15:47):
Where they live.

Speaker 2 (15:48):
They are play in Darlings every single year, just right
above you know that nine to ten range and just
won't kind of go away. They waited too long to
trade everybody, as we know in these terms, are the
main guys where they could have gotten more value. Now
you know it's Kobe Wide and Josh Giddy and Buchavis
still there, but the main guy who they need to
be developing, and there's as obviously Buzellas that I think
is the point here. I don't I don't love adding

(16:10):
a quarrel to you know, Patrick Williams and all that, like,
you know, good luck with that. But I think Busillis
is a guy who they're going to be trying to
obviously feature a little bit more here with this in
this situation. But it's the same old thing for me
with Chicago. I have them here in the plane because
like they're just they're still decent enough in esoscence to
scratch out, you know, maybe thirty four ish wins, thirty
five wins, whatever it is, and be right in that

(16:31):
playing situation, but not bad enough where they needed to
bottom out. And I think that's ultimately we'll need to
see if that is where they go. If they move
off Kobe Wide at some point, move Offusavich at some
point as well too, and then let it be the
Giddy and Bussella's show. I think that'd be better served.
But to me, this is just kind of like what
they always do. Dan, your thoughts Chicago back here in
the plane range, Yeah, I.

Speaker 5 (16:52):
Mean you said it this is where they live. They're
they're aiming for thirty five to thirty nine wins and
to get that extra game or two of gate revenue
in the play in tournament. And I think what you
mentioned is so interesting because you're right they probably should
trade Kobe White. He's in the last year of his deal.
They just paid Josh Giddy. Like, what does a backcourt
look like built around the future of Kobe White and

(17:13):
Josh Giddy? Defensively, probably nothing sustainable, but we know this
organization doesn't think with that kind of forethought, and they're
going even if it looks like they can skid out
and maybe improve their lottery odds, they're not going to
do that. Like, They're just going to aim for the
play in and so like, like that tournament was created
specifically for the Bulls. At this point, I think I

(17:34):
don't think there's really any argument there.

Speaker 3 (17:36):
It's an interesting It's interesting because what I said a
little bit earlier, Dan, is that you kind of have
another additional team that would probably be more play and
worthy for you. I think you had like the Boss
of Celtics, and and I wanted to ask you this
question because it's it's very it's very different, right the Celtics,
it's more of the extreme up injuries, right like, because

(17:56):
there's nobody questioning if their talent is completely healthy. We
aren't talking about it in that context. But until we
know the status of Tatum and.

Speaker 1 (18:05):
Brown really not, you know, to you you don't feel
as confident that they're going to be a middle of
the pack team. They're probably gonna eat their way, struggle
their way in. Maybe by the grace of the basketball gods,
they get Tatum at a certain point if they think
it's worth doing it. But when we're talking about the Bulls,
we're talking about talent, right like, for all of it,

(18:25):
it's never never been about whether or not, you know,
an injury here or there. It's really the collective talent
and the mindset of this team being better than what
they actually can be, you know, can they reflect? And
I just find it interesting where you see the two
differences on you know, just getting your take on that,
because I feel like that's what we're going to be

(18:46):
talking about as well too. With the Toronto.

Speaker 3 (18:47):
Raptors, it's never a question of an injury to their
star player. It's always a matter of the talent just
not living up to the billing to get themselves in
a position where we buy into them being more than
just either a play and worthy team or a team
that's on the cusp of hanging around the lottery teams.

Speaker 5 (19:06):
Yeah, I think, you know, the difference with Chicago is
there's definitely it's the talent thing. And it's also just
like they don't have the direction is because like you
might have high end young talent on this roster. I
even really like Noah Segui, who they drafted this year,
Like how much are you gonna play him? Are you
gonna have the ball a lot in Bouzelz's hands, or
you're gonna give you have to give a ton of
touches to to Kobe White. IO assume we still hill.

(19:28):
You guys already mentioned that Vouch is still there with
the Celtics. To me, it's not even about the injuries
for them, it's just I don't think that they're gonna
want to be here. I think that they view this
as an opportunity to kind of give Jalen Brown and
Derek White like some breathing, like to catch a breather
this year. Let Jason Tatum come back healthy. Maybe he
plays towards the end of the year for a few

(19:48):
games to get his bearings. But I don't think they're
going to be chasing a play in spot. I viewed
as more of just this intentional gap year. When you
look at all the talent they've traded away, and I
mean you mentioned the Raptors. I really can't quit the
rap They have a lot of talent on this roster
and they're like, right, they're a little bullsy in because like,
the talent hasn't come together yet, but we also just
haven't seen enough of it when you look at like

(20:09):
the core lineup together, where it's like we want to
see more of quickly and Barns, like Brandon Ingram hasn't
even played for this team, don't. I still don't understand
the theory of Toronto other than they have a bunch
of talent and they think that it will coalaise together.
But I keep just looking at there are a lot
of guys that want the ball. Jaku Purtles not the
center to me for that group. Very smart player, can

(20:31):
be a very effective player, but doesn't space the floor.
His room protection numbers have dropped. Is a good screener,
a pretty good passer, but when you have R. J.
Barrett and Barnes, who both have questionable jump shots still
on the court and then also have a manual quickly
and Brandon Ingram who sometimes he's a high volume three
point guy, sometimes he's not. There's a lot of variables

(20:51):
at play. But I really look at them on paper,
even down to some of like their younger, lesser known
guys like a Grady Dick, Jamal Shed I really like
him too what he could do defensively, and Colin Murray
Boyles excellent defensively, can't do a thing on offense. I
don't understand this team. It just has a lot of talent,
so I can't quit them. AB mean, yeah, I would

(21:12):
have to agree so much with that. There's a lot
of guys and guys you know, you know in Toronto.
But yeah, it just does it all fit. I mentioned
to see if if Purtle can be you know a
dam's alluding to again the high volume screener and then
a decent passer while they don't have the I obviously
the requids at spacing, you know, does that allow greed?
Did he take another step?

Speaker 2 (21:31):
I'll presumably the becoming of the bench here Oily become
a guy who can space the floor for them, you know,
in some different alternate lineups. But they haven't got a
lot of reps together, as then alluded to, which is
a very very interesting situation. They let them aside draft
and then you know, subsequently like he exits right after
the draft, which another old situation. But I'm not and
I'm not really sure what Scottie Barne's long term perspective is.

(21:53):
Like I gain a good player fringe all Star, but
is he your building block? And who is the building
and it's be I going to come back here now
and want to have all these touches to kind of
show hey, I'm that dude or whatever the case to be.

Speaker 4 (22:06):
Like, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (22:07):
I feel like they're going to fumble their way to
some wins and obviously fumble their ways to a lot
of losses as well, which seems playing worthy to me.
I can't pull them anywhere else right now, but I'm
rooting for them because I like a lot of their guys.
I just don't know if I like them together.

Speaker 3 (22:20):
Yeah, this is these two teams are going to be
the most interesting to watch through the course of the
year because they're their ceiling and they're bottoming out. Are
so extreme? Are just are so so extreme. I think
if you're someone who's really trying to follow the ebbs
and flows of an NBA season like a roller coaster,

(22:42):
watch these two teams and how they operate, because you'll
probably the only thing that I think will be very
much steady for both of these teams is literally the
head coach's facial expressions watching watching how these guys were
for the baseline. Cali Warrenshaw and our special guest Dan

(23:02):
fa Valli of Hardwood Knocks joining us.

Speaker 1 (23:05):
Coming up.

Speaker 3 (23:05):
We got the middle of the pack teams to go through,
and you do not want to miss out what we
have etched in as our contenders quote unquote, I want
to say it. I really want to say it. The
Beasts of the East. We'll get into those. Don't miss it.
Here on the baseline. We're back, Cali Warrenshaw Baseline NBA Podcast,

(23:35):
our twenty twenty five twenty six Eastern Conference preview with
our special guests Dan fora Vallie of Hardwood Nots joining
us here.

Speaker 1 (23:43):
Time for us to get into the middle of the
pack teams.

Speaker 3 (23:46):
These are the teams that are definitely going to be
in the playoff conversation, We're not ranking these teams. We're
just basically looking at the teams collectively that we believe
are best suited to be within the playoffs. And hey,
when they roll the dice, who knows where they might
wind up wind up by seasons. And we've got the Celtics,
We've got the Philadelphia seventy six ers, the Milwaukee Bucks,

(24:08):
the Miami Heat, and Theanana Pacers.

Speaker 1 (24:10):
Now, Dan, you made a great argument.

Speaker 3 (24:12):
About how you know, basically you were providing us with
a prospectus of what the highs and lows as I'm
referencing Spike Lee and Denzel Washington of the Boston Celtics
and where their season may may fold. And it's interesting
how we were talking about how we don't know whether
or not we want to luck up the Toronto Raptors

(24:33):
or luck them down.

Speaker 1 (24:34):
I feel like this is what we're gonna do with
the Boston Celtics. They may actually intentionally try to lose
games and still luck themselves into somehow being being a
team that's in the middle of the fact that's like
being in the playoffs, right, So we're not gonna can
coon them just yet. But then we can also just
make the same argument for the Philadelphia seventy six Ers
and the Indiana Pacers. What do you make of, you know,

(24:55):
specifically those two teams.

Speaker 3 (24:56):
Which of those two teams you see has more upside
and which do you feel like this is a proving
ground season When I look at both of those teams.
We'll get into the bucks in the heat because I
have a different perspective on them in a moment. But
I wanted to get your take about where we see
the seventy six Ers and the Indiana Pacers given the
outlook of where these teams need to be and want

(25:17):
to be by seasons end.

Speaker 5 (25:19):
Yeah, I think you have to say the Sixers have
more upside because if you get fifty to sixty games
of Joelle Andbe, you have an MVP candidate. And we
know that I love Pascal Siakam, but with Tyre's Haliburton out,
you don't have that player in Indiana, and he is
so core to that identity to where you have to
wonder is their offense going to look the same without him?

(25:40):
But when you're going from sort of that baseline just
to you know, name check the podcast, I think Indiana
has the higher just like Floor, because they have so
much talent, they have so much depth, And I think
with the Sixers they still don't really know how they're
supposed to play without Joel Embiid. And then you bake
in just the questions about can Jared McCain stay healthy?

(26:01):
He was already injured again heading into year two. What
does Paul George look like because he's getting older and
always feels like he's dealing with injury. What does the
backup big rotation look like?

Speaker 1 (26:10):
Is this?

Speaker 5 (26:10):
Are they really going to play a den Bona a bunch?
Are they going to lean on Andre Drummond? So they
have Dominic Barlow over there. They just have so many
questions that the variance to their performance I think is
a lot worse than in Indiana. And I know some
have the Pacers kind of like I mentioned with the Celtics.
They see the Pacers got their pick back this year,
they think they might be a team that pivots out

(26:31):
of wins.

Speaker 4 (26:32):
That franchise just doesn't do that.

Speaker 1 (26:33):
Yeah, and they had they're so deep, Yeah exactly, Yeah, yeah,
not not not when you have a coach like Carlisle.
He just works with whom ever, and I see more.
I saw more upside.

Speaker 3 (26:44):
I saw more flourish Dan to your point, from guys
in critical games in the playoffs that got them to
that Game seven. That they're healthy, they're fine. This is
their coming out part. The nem Hart's Shepherds we don't like.
The only wild card in my opinion is Mathern. But
if I get a gritty, pesky you know, Lance Stevenson

(27:07):
like Matherin, you know maybe that that you know that
that takes the burden off of this dependency that the
Pacers may need to have on Siakam, because Sam is
gonna be really your in and out mismatch every single night.
If he plays within himself, he's capable of He just
doesn't have that aggression that that Halliburton sort of seek
that mentality. So it'll be interesting to see, to your point,

(27:29):
what what you can see with the Pacers if they
all play within themselves, and I think Carlisle can guide
them in that. The seventy six ers, to your point, Man,
they frustrate me so much and I really believe them.
You're losing yaby SELLI this this season. I think it's
gonna be Listen Sixers fans loved yaby Selli. He he
to me was if you're gonna lose out that I

(27:51):
don't think they like this idea of the inconsistency of
Bees and his mentality and his approach on a night
and night at basis. You got that with at least
Yabu Sely.

Speaker 1 (27:59):
I'm not making comparisons between the two, but I'm saying
how he approaches the game that hunger, that desire. Philly
fans love.

Speaker 3 (28:05):
That you take players like that away and the onus
goes right back on their star players, like why are
we paying due this much money for him to basically
go out and complain and not give us his all
even if he's injured, or then complain that he doesn't
perform well because of the injury. So that's the one
thing that I'm looking at is how much scrutiny are
the seventy six ers willing Are they willing to take

(28:25):
this upcoming season? Because talent wise, they should be better
than the Pacers, But when they don't perform at one
hundred percent on a night and night out basis, that's
when the scrutiny becomes big and the spotlight shines brightest
on them.

Speaker 2 (28:37):
The sixth are the constant great unknown in the USERN
Conference and you just can't trust it.

Speaker 1 (28:42):
You know.

Speaker 2 (28:42):
It's similar, not the same, but similar to the Flippers
on the West, like, hey, you look at them, You're like, ah, well,
you want to believe and then something always kind of
goes a ride. And I think that's a level of
frustration that Sixers fans are probably dealing with more than
obviously media types. The fluck our of Off is like, hey, well,
whatever happens there happens. And it is really unfortunate that
McCain is going to start the season, you know, with

(29:03):
on the shelf here with that thumb injury, you know,
really looking forward what he and Mexic can do in
that backcourt too. But then embed you know, the limited time,
the whole thing. It's it's a very very you know,
stressful situation for me to watch the Philadelphia seventy six er.
So I choose not to. And I think, you know,
when it comes to Indiana, you know, really interesting too.
You know, nem Hard and Matter and all guys who
are in the runnings, I think are ready for most

(29:24):
improved players because they're going to get so many more
minutes and reps like they have all the opportunity. Well,
I don't know if they actually be most improved, they'll
have the most improved opportunities, and that's fine as well too.
Or Carlisle is a legendary coach who's always going to
do what it takes to make his team competitive, and
the Pacers like being doubted, So I think the middle
of the pack seems about right for them here too.
But as we talk about some of the other tiers

(29:45):
or other teams you know, within this tier, you know,
kind of touch on the Celtics already, and as I
go over to Miami a little bit, it's really interesting
to me because, uh, this team outside of Bam Hero,
it's going to start and start to start the season
with the injury as well too, But they have a
lot of guys who kind of do similar things and
don't all like rise above the other. That could be

(30:07):
good and bad. I guess right collected that it was
supposed to like you never really drop off. I guess
he was putting kind of like the same talent out there.
And this is the type of roster that I spoke.
I think Spoe really does usually work well with lower expectations,
but I think this is still a team that's going
to find a way to get into the middle of
the Packrond in the Eastern Conference. I think there was
some variance in where we had them, someone had n't
been playing or whatever, But ultimately I think there's a

(30:29):
team that's going to be right there fighting Dan your
thoughts on Miami, I think specifically and where they should
stack up here in the East.

Speaker 5 (30:37):
I think you said it perfectly with the spo element,
is like this roster's just made for him, Like you've
taken the stars that have a ton of egos out
of the equation. In Jimmy Butler, who was so critical
to them, fantastic player, but towards the end, it was
just it was not a good fit for anybody, and
you saw that just we all witnessed and saw what happened.
Now you look at this roster, it's deep, it has

(30:58):
a lot of question marks, but I think you can
already see Nikola Jovic is playing differently, them going out
and signing Drew Smith, who returns to the court ten
months after suffering a torn achilles because he's a superhuman
apparently having a guy like him or a guy like
Keishaw Johnson, just these potentially hidden gems where none of
them are going to be stars. But if Jim hawkis

(31:19):
junior doesn't perform better after having a down sophomore year,
there is sort of a next guy up mentality there.
And I think what's interesting about them is based off
what we've heard in training camp, what little we've seen
in the preseason, they're really going to lean into some
spacey lineups. They're going to try and play faster. We'll
see if Tyler Hero can be integrated into that upon return.
But you have just between Hero and Norman Powell, two

(31:42):
of the better perimeter scoring guards in the league who
don't always need the ball to be a threat. And
that's what makes them so interesting to me is there's
this there's this sneaky depth to the way they can play,
and I think you just trust any team that has
Bam and SPO they're going to figure it out defensively,
Like I think they're going to cater to a lot
of offensive lineups. We'll see a lot of Hero and
Powell together, who are not good defenders, but they just

(32:05):
seem to figure things out defensively, almost regardless of who
they have on the floor, so and Davion Mitchell made
a little bit of a leap with them, So they
just have Warren kinda said this, they have a lot
of guys, and so I don't know where they're gonna land.
Are they a top six team or do they get
into the playoffs by the way of the play in
that I'm still not sure about. But there certainly seem
like a team that is going to be in the

(32:25):
mix if they remain relatively healthy.

Speaker 3 (32:27):
The Miami Heat team, to me, whatever numbers that you
saw the Miami Heat give you last year is throw
that out the window because this team is probably going
to operate a little bit differently. And Dan, it's interesting
because Sean and I just talked about this he just finished,
you know, attending Miami Heat media day, and given what

(32:48):
he described to me as the tenor and the tone
and how Eric Spolster sounded, I said, this is probably
we're getting to that point now where we're going to
be talking about Eric spols the same that we talked about,
the same way that we talked about with Greg Popovich
when he made the adjustments, when he finally kind of

(33:09):
changed a little bit of his mentality about how he
wanted to see the team operate with the players that
he had, rather than it just being baked into the
culture that was established between him and pat Riley. This
could be that turning point season, just because it's been
stripped down to essentially the bare minimum of what he
needs in order to rebuild up the image of how

(33:31):
this team wants to operate. And so it'll be interesting.
I'm looking forward to this because I've often had questioned
over the last few years where the imprint is.

Speaker 1 (33:40):
Is it really Spolster's team? Is this Butler's team? Is
this Riley's team?

Speaker 3 (33:45):
And I'm glad it all came to a head because
I've always often felt that the Miami Heat thrives when
Spolstra has two or three guys that are molded within
his philosophy and self And then if you go and
you out, go out and free agency, you're not clamoring
for the ego guy to help get you over the top.
You're getting that guy that he knows is gonna come

(34:05):
in and falls right in with what I'm trying to do.
You know what I'm saying, Like when you go and
you get a shock, but you've got a d way right.
It's like that that fit that helped because you had
the culture guy, but you had the guy that came.

Speaker 1 (34:16):
In knowing what his role was and what he was
gonna do. He wasn't gonna overbear does he'd have missed
on that the last couple of seasons when they've gone
out there to try to get someone free agency wise,
I think if you're confident in Bam being that guy,
and you're building up the heroes, you're building up the Mitchell's,
you're building up the Vasquezes, all those guys within this season,
then you probably have a better picture about how Sposter

(34:37):
really has evolved as a coach, rather than always questioning
it about the Heat culture altogether. Collected.

Speaker 5 (34:43):
Yeah, I mean, I'm totally sorry. I was just I
totally agree with everything you said there. So that's what
I think makes this team so fascinating is not just
what's gonna happen this season, but how does it inform
how they build this team for the future.

Speaker 2 (34:55):
Absolutelyos like this humbler of egos, and you know that's
something to like Dan, You you know, we're obviously in
the last show, but I was like, listen, there's almost
like a shared trauma between Basquez and Djoevish and Kalel
whare of guys who felt like, you know what, Hey,
I'm hot shit, you know, and was like, nah, bro
go ahead and grab some at his bench and I'll

(35:17):
tap you know when I need you. And all those
guys need to kind of reassess how they're going to
interact this year. Terry Rogier is part of that collective
as well, So I'm really interested to see how Miami
does that before we move on, though it obviously need to,
you know, kind of touch on the Milwaukee Bucks. And
you know, one of the things here I think from
must or from my lens is what level of ceiling

(35:38):
razor is Yiannis with this roster? With Doc Rivers at
the air quote Helm, you know, I think we I
think I had him in the middle of the pack.
Some people had him in the plane. I'm not really
I'm not really sure. Like how good is Milwaukee and
if he needs to play Giannis at is played like
thirty eight to forty two minutes a night, is that
sustainable for them to be in middle of the pack?

(35:58):
Team kick to you, Dan, You're just your quick thoughts
when you were ranking Milwaukee. How did you assess them?

Speaker 5 (36:05):
There is an element of for me, through all things,
Jiannis are possible, and the point Yiannis reps that we
saw in the like towards the end of last year.

Speaker 4 (36:14):
They were encouraging.

Speaker 5 (36:15):
But I can't get fully on board with a team
that is going to have either Kyle Kuzma, Kevin Porter Junior,
or Miles Turner as it's number two offensive option. I
think that's setting the Bucks up potentially for offensive disaster
because Giannis is gonna need enough space or at least
a second viable threat around him if he's going to
have the ball in his hands. I think you could argue, like,

(36:35):
the best shooters on this team, okay, aj Green really good.
You space the floor with Bobby Portis and Miles Turner,
some of the wing minutes are gonna get dicey, and
I would go back to Kyle Kuzma there, like, how
how long of a runway is Doc Rivers going to
give him if he's actively damaging the offense like we
saw him do at points last season. So you have
one of the three to five best players in the

(36:56):
NBA who happens to play both sides of the ball.
I know people think that he's droped off defensively, but
Yiannis is still just one of the best defenders in
the league. If he remains healthy, I think that they'll
be in the mix for a playoff spot. But how
much are they gonna need to rely on him or
they're gonna be any easy games? Or is this gonna
be circa like you know, we saw it with like
the those Knicks teams before they got brunts in, whereas like, okay,

(37:18):
that was cool with Julius Randall, but look at how
hard they needed to go every night just to be
considered a fringe playoff team. And that kind of feels
like the territory we're in with the Bucks and Giannis
is that if he's playing anything short of like thirty
seven minutes a game, I think you could argue, like, oh,
maybe this team just belongs in the play in because
I don't know that you can afford to operate like

(37:40):
what twelve minutes, thirteen minutes a game without Giannis on
the court, Like that seems just even saying that right
now seems super dire.

Speaker 2 (37:48):
I couldn't agree more. It gives me, gives me the
ebgb's honestly, you know, I don't want my offense run
into you know, Bobby Port as well. I think you
know a serviceable player. I just I can't. I can't
do it. And then I'm really concerned about what pressure
Miles Turner is going to face this year, you know,
in the kind of the wake of the Dame situation.
So whatever it is, like the fifty plus million dollars

(38:09):
it is to write to have Miles Turner when you
stretch in Wave Dame and then turned the salary into that,
I'm just not really sure. And again, Janni's got to
play so many minutes. It can't be Kevin Porter Junior
and Cole Anthony. Those guys are not you know, these
great ball creators and distributors. While they're they'll be happy
to take some shots and sometimes they'll go in. I
just I just don't know if Milwaukee is really sent

(38:30):
for that. So I'm the more we talk about it,
I'm more bullish on them in terms of playing because
Gianni's also usually has some sort of a nagging injury
where he can't play seventy games a year, So then
you take that into consideration with the minute slow that's
going to be a part of it too, and it
gives me a little bit, a little bit more doubt
on Milwaukee. See how before we close out here in
the middle pack, any quick thoughts on the Bucks from
from you?

Speaker 3 (38:51):
Yeah, I said that this was going to be my
down year on the Bucks. I've wanted to give the
Bucks as much leeway as possible, and everything that they've
done leading up to anything they've done past Drew Holliday
to me has been an ultimate miss Where I think
this becomes a missus is that you're gonna spend this
kind of money.

Speaker 1 (39:12):
And no disrespect to Doc Rivers.

Speaker 3 (39:13):
I will always give Doc Rivers his flowers, you know,
for being a really good head coach. But year in
and year out, he continually keeps proving to me why
you know, listen, man, it's great to probably be in
the booths and commenting and being out there, you know, coaching,
because there comes a point where when you're just now
you're a placeholder for the players rather than actually being

(39:36):
a guide or being you know, something substantive for the
players and how they need to take that next step
to be championship level. What exactly is Doc Rivers giving
Giannis that Yiannis hasn't already achieved doing what he did
for the Milwaukee Bucks getting him their championship, right, And
so now it comes down to the other players, the
Kyle Kuzmas, maybe even a Miles Turner. He doesn't have

(39:58):
a championship, you know what I'm saying, Like, there are
guys that you would think Doc Rivers could actually help
influence and be better at what they're doing, because if
you send them somewhere else, they're probably not gonna be starting,
They're probably not gonna be playing. So that to me
becomes an indictment on Doc Rivers, and I feel like
until that narrative changes a little bit, I'm almost on
that conspiracy theory where you brought Miles Turner in, because

(40:21):
I'm guaranteeing you that Jannis Atkumpo is gonna be yell
enough to the rooftops time to move me, it's time
to go, time to make something happen, and they want
to say face when that actually does have to happen,
that they've still got some kind of a star player
that can put fans in the seats. I'm not saying
that Miles Turner is a Yiannis. I'm just saying you've
got at least a legitimate player that is, you know,
comparable for whatever is going to happen in the aftermass

(40:43):
of Giannis. But I don't see him being on this
roster much longer if this team doesn't perform at least
like they're gonna compete. And you know, Yannis, he ain't
having it. And I just feel like, at the expense
of a coach who I just think has passed his
days of being a solid coach, this is just not
a good combination for me. And I'd have probably been
more so about seeing them, to your point, Shaw, as

(41:05):
a playing team more so than a plate a middle
of the pack team. But I feel like just because
they have enough good players, they'll be hanging around in
that conversation.

Speaker 2 (41:14):
Well, that shows how much respect we have for Jhannas
and his individual name, right, I think, really and truly
Editorialal Kuzma is a Bubble champion, so he is an
NBA champion, so you know, if you have championship experience,
but outside of that, you know, yeah, I see where
you're going.

Speaker 1 (41:28):
You're tune to the baseline. Callie Ward Shaw and a
special guest Dan for volley of Hardwood Knocks coming up
for time to break down those contenders. These are the
elites of the East.

Speaker 3 (41:38):
Will break down those teams that we believe are going
to be in that conversation for the Eastern Conference Finals
and possibly the NBA Finals. You don't want to missy
here on the Baseline and we're back Cali Ward Shaw
Baseline NBA Podcast with our special guests Dan Favali of

(42:01):
Hardwood Notz As we're doing our twenty twenty five to
twenty six NBA Eastern Conference preview, rounding it out and
top for us to get into the Elites of the East.
These are going to be our contenders, the selections that
we believe are going to be of the top teams
representing the Eastern Conference with an opportunity to get to
the NBA Finals. We've got the New York Knicks, Cleveland Cavaliers,

(42:24):
Detroit Pistons, Atlanta Hawks, in Orlando, Magic Shaw.

Speaker 1 (42:29):
I'm gonna start with you on this.

Speaker 3 (42:32):
These are the teams that we believe, especially from last
year or maybe the last couple of years, that they
are going to rightfully solidify the top four top five
teams as the top four top five teams of the East. Clearly,
teams like the Hawks, Pistons, and Magic are going to
be jockeying for that position. I think collectively we believe

(42:52):
that the Knicks and the Cavaliers, among should be one
of the best teams, the top two teams. But what
do we make of this, you know, our elites of
the East.

Speaker 2 (43:02):
Well, I'm actually gonna kind of throw it back to
you in an in a brief second, because it was
your ranking who elevated the Pistons into this into this tier.
You know, we had your welcome to the pack, but
your your evaluation kind of elevated them. So I had
to go with aggregate. It's like, all right, well they
can be Eastern Conference contenders. So I don't know if
Dan and I will quite agree with that, but give
you your opportunity to make your case for Detroit Pistons. Dan

(43:24):
also cl is a I want to say, he's a
Pistons fan, but he's always advocating them, like you're in,
you're in, year out, So I'm ansious for him to
kind of plead this case here. But I think you know,
we're looking at the contenders. It's obviously New York and
Cleveland should be at the top of this list. Everybody
else is like, all right, did they make enough move
in the headways to try to get in here?

Speaker 4 (43:44):
Atlanta?

Speaker 2 (43:44):
I'm really high on. I love what their general management
did you know in the off season getting porzingis uh,
making that you know whatever, that deal that came to
them through New Orleans as well to just everything getting
Jalen Johnson back, Like, this is a team that I
think is poised as long as Trey Young and kind
of keep his head on straight and not maybe salivate
himself with you know what I mean, just like, oh
my god, I need to not go ahead and overprove himself.

(44:06):
Just let that team kind of do what it needs
to do. Then obviously the addition of Desmond Band in
Orlando as well too, So those are my quick overview thoughts.
But Dan, before we kick it to you and to
kick it back to cel, why are you as high
as you are on the Detroit Pistons.

Speaker 3 (44:19):
Because I think the the Detroit Pistons have have figured
out that they belong. I think having JB. Bickerstaff as
their head coach has been obviously very helpful. I think
we're now beginning to see and believe in the in
the young core talent that the Pistons have with cunning Him,
with Duran and with Asar Thompson, who I don't even

(44:43):
believe has been given enough you know of a would
you say, a runway for us to really see what
he can bring to the table. What's definite is is
that he has had opportunities and he has made the
most of them. And I really do think that he
is going to have He's going to be a key
piece as far as us really buying into the young
talent that's there. The one thing that I think this

(45:05):
really stands out to me is one this team clearly
can play defense. Okay, I think that they have the
capabilities of being a much better team defensively. I think
there is room for them to be better offensively, and
I think that's where JB. Bickerstaff has to lean in
figuring out ways to get those young players to thrive
so that the onus isn't on Ky Cunningham. Now you

(45:26):
you you know, you got like, uh, you know what
you call it the lightning in a bottle with Beasley's
season that you got and I think he can kind
of continue to But I don't think that that solely
is going to be the reason why I think they're
going to be a much improved team and listening that
he's not there, so I know that, but I'm just
saying that like that is because of the fact that

(45:47):
you know him as a shooter, Right, there were those
opportunities he wanted to shoot. Now I think that's now
being that's opening up the opportunities for everyone else to
step in, and I think we'll we'll kind of pick
up the slack or make up the slack. I think
the key here is competitiveness and the other thing as
well too.

Speaker 1 (46:04):
And I spoke about this when I was watching the
Pistons in the offseason. Again, you know, the shot at JB.

Speaker 3 (46:10):
Bickerstaff is is that he sometimes shoots himself in the
foot because he doesn't make in game adjustments or he
doesn't make adjustments during those critical games like in the playoffs,
because ultimately you could have made the argument that the
Pistons could have beaten the New York Knicks in that series. Right,
So a couple of moves here and there, are we
talking about things differently? Would you be speaking in a
little bit more confidence about the Detroit Pistons I think,

(46:32):
in my opinion is to me, I'm not convincing you
you're much higher on the upside of those other teams.
But I'm not going to diminish the fact that the
Detroit Pistons can run with the likes of the Orlando
Magic and run with the likes of the Atlanta Hawks,
because I believe in the fact that they now know
that they belonged there. I would have said something differently
had this team again been an under five hundred team.

(46:53):
But they're figuring out to win basketball games. And when
you have that kind of upside and to kind of
improve it that I think you will see from k Cunningham.
Jalen Duran hasn't even come into his own I think
he now he believes that he could be among one
of the better big men in the Eastern Conference. There's
opportunity there for this team to really be a problem,
and they're gonna get it every single time because they're
going to continually have to keep playing the likes of

(47:14):
the Bucks, and they're going to continually play the likes
against the Pacers and to play against the likes of
the Potentral Division.

Speaker 2 (47:20):
So so, Dan, let me ask you, really quickly too,
So I think there are probably a trade piece away,
and if they were to get like a lower market
in or something like that, then you know, sure, I
think all the lights come on in Dallas, I mean
Dallas and Detroit rather, But is the addition of Duncan
Robinson and Carousel Bert Jaden Ivy coming back enough for
you and Cel's argument to put Detroit into a contender's

(47:43):
tier for you?

Speaker 5 (47:45):
You know, Cel's argument was interesting because I think that
there is we probably underrate how important it is that
this team went to the playoffs and almost beat what
turned out to be a conference finalist, and what they
were able to do defensively where I think if you
look at their personnel, I mean, kay got a lot
better on defense last year, and you did have Asar
Thompson and Jayalen durn got a little bit better, but
you didn't look at this team and say, oh, like

(48:07):
they're going to be a really good defensive team, so
that they were able to kind of punch above their
weight a little bit there. I think my issue with
them and Warren kind of talked about is like you
do still need there needs to be another higher end
player here, and I actually think that they were smart
in not targeting that player over the offseason, because I
think one of the things that teams get wrong the
most is we've seen it a bunch, like in the

(48:29):
Atlanta Hawks, a team in this tier now did it
after they made the conference finals. You read too much
into the success that you just had. And for the Pistons,
progress for them won't necessarily be linear. To me, They're
gonna want to develop Ron Holland cil would mentioned Toasar
Thompson hasn't gotten like enough of an offensive opportunity yet.
I think part of that is he missed a bunch
of time and then also there's functional limitations there. But

(48:51):
you're gonna need to explore the space with both of
those guys, either on the ball or as shooters, because
one of them needs to have some semblance of at
least stands still jump shot if you want your offense
to operate one at peak capacity, ever, but two with
both of them ever on the court together, which is
also something we didn't see a ton of last year,
as those two playing alongside of Jalen durn Can that happen?

Speaker 4 (49:13):
Should it happen?

Speaker 5 (49:14):
Jay n Ivey coming back from a fairly major injury,
and you also have him and Duran playing for their
next contracts. Maybe if they don't get extensions. Do we
buy into the sample we saw from Jade and Ivy
when he hit his catch and shoot three pointers. I
think there are just too many questions about this team
for me, and I actually think the fact that they
seem willing to find the answers for them to see

(49:34):
what they have in all the younger guys, where I
think that they're gonna prioritize playing Ron Holland over a
Duncan Robinson or maybe getting Usar Thompson reps is the
primary ball handler over playing Terris Laverd. That might actually
ncap their wins in place in the East a little bit,
and it will be to me in service of the
bigger picture, which I think is smart. And that's why

(49:54):
I can't get there with them right now unless they
turn around and like Warren had said, do they make
it trade for lowry marketing or someone else that amples
their way onto the market.

Speaker 2 (50:04):
All right, So so we'll jump off the pistons and
jump to maybe some of the other teams and maybe
the newcomers into this tier, and we'll start with kind
of going maybe do a little bit more referendum on
Atlanta and Orlando. So again kind of on my stuff
from the Atlanta side already, but I just feel like
there's a certain level of continuity with a mix of
new uh, you know, they still have talent, like even

(50:25):
on Congo's you know now going to be I guess
probably the full time starter or at least getting a
lot more minutes into that situation. Again, I cannot say
how much of enough of a big of a jail
in Johnson fan I am, and Yson Daniel's more comfortable
within that system as well too. I think they've done
enough to warrant a pretty significant win increase that will
have them knocking out the door. I still think they're

(50:46):
probably third in the Eastern Conference, but it also depends
how good Orlando ultimately is. With the addition of Desmond
Baine is where I'll actually kind of pick kick it
over to you Dan now as well too. Orlando's addition
of Desmond Vane is that the is that the ELUK
shirt that puts a magic over the hump that goes
along with that great defensive identity or I think.

Speaker 5 (51:05):
It says a lot that you can look at the
Desmond Main acquisition and say, oh, that's a perfect fit,
and then still look at the roster and wonder if
they have enough shooting. Adding him and Tias Jones. I
don't think is gonna amount to enough shooting. The Franz
Wagner Jrumpshot experience is still not great. I think Pala
Binkaro has a better like outside touch in him, But

(51:25):
I don't know if this team is fully there yet.
They certainly belong in this tier to me relative to
the rest of the East, and especially you know, you
mentioned the defense that they have, but Jalen Suggs is
always kind of dealing with something. It feels like health wise,
they deal with front court injuries every single year. There's
the defense is eleven to ten, no notes. I think
when you get into questions about the offense, you know,

(51:47):
Tias Jones finally gives you that floor organizer, how much
is he gonna play when we know Jamal Mosley doesn't
really favor guys who don't play defense like that hard
or not that hard that well, So I think there's
still like kind of a play away and it doesn't
have to be a major rotation piece. But I don't
think that their offense is gonna get there just yet.
And I think the other variable here, and it helps

(52:07):
that Desmond Bain is so plug and play, but sometimes
these major additions they kind of take time, like for
the integration to work. And so just given how bad
Orlando has been on offense for the past well, I
mean basically two decades, but certainly with this core, I
think that people are underrating the learning curve that will
happen here. Their defense, though, will probably get them by.

(52:27):
And so if everything kind of comes together by like
I don't know, April, like this would be a team
you already don't want to face in the playoffs, but
you might really not want to face in the playoffs
at that time.

Speaker 1 (52:37):
Listen. I My settiment is that if we say that
the Orlando Magic are the third best team in the
Eastern Conference, then that's why I feel as confident as
I do about the Detroit Pistons kind of being in
that conversation, or maybe even the Atlanta Hawks being in
that conversation. I think it's a toss. Though. I think
it was a great move by the Orlando Magic to
get Desmond Bain, no doubt, because.

Speaker 3 (52:59):
You're not what you're gonna tell me that KCP. Another
year of KCP is what is going to be their answer?
No way, right. But and Sean, you've been high on
Tias Jones. I think Tias Jones is a comparable guard.
Do I think that he's a starting guard?

Speaker 1 (53:14):
No?

Speaker 3 (53:14):
And I think that the Orlanto Magic had something when
they had Pollo Van Carroll operating as a point forward.
Obviously was by default because they didn't have Jalen Suggs.
But I'm gonna tell you right now, I'm more confident
about von Caro as a point forward more so than
I am about Jalen Suggs as being the point guard.

Speaker 1 (53:34):
You know what I'm saying now. That's not disrespecting Suggs
because maybe to me, he's a better player off the ball,
like someone else is putting him in a better position
for him, even though.

Speaker 3 (53:43):
They've been trying to get him to be the point guard.
But I think to me, the key for the Orlando
Magic is offensively. And maybe this is as simple minded
as me is. Bon Caro needs that solid number two
guy that he can play off of. I know that
they've been trying to do this with Wagner, but I
believe that if it's gonna be Bon Carrol and Bain
will see how that plays out and then you find

(54:03):
a combination with Wagner in it, or you really have
to lean in on Wagner stepping up, mont Cairo stepping
up and really being that dynamic duo if that was
the purpose and the intent with the ancillary pieces around
and those guys being better shooters, like they can shoot
the ball better because of what they're doing, but to
do that, they have to dominate on the interior. They
have to dominate the front court like it's nobody's business

(54:25):
to give the spacing that they need.

Speaker 1 (54:27):
That's the reason why I feel like it's a toss up.

Speaker 3 (54:29):
Defensively, I think they're gonna be fine, right, but mostly
to me, is gonna be the key on what he
sees as to how he wants that team being led
around on an offensively to make that all work. And
I think that, to me is going to be quote
unquote the question mark or whether or not we're going
to elevate them in the conversations of the Cleveland Cavaliers
or the New York Knicks.

Speaker 2 (54:50):
Yeah, I mean it's interesting because I think you're talking
about their offensive organization. They have a lot of guys
who are secondary play creators per se, maybe like it's
not their their mode of operation, so to speak. With
the exception of Tias Shows right, like that is like
what he's brought in essence to do. So how many
how many minutes is he going to play? Mess is
going to be forced to play because maybe Suggs was

(55:11):
out again too, Like like those are all the things
that we want to try to We'll have to see
in terms of how what kind of counterballance is.

Speaker 1 (55:17):
But I wouldn't be surprised. I wouldn't even be surprised
if if if Jones takes Suggs position.

Speaker 2 (55:23):
You're wilin.

Speaker 1 (55:24):
There's not a chance.

Speaker 3 (55:25):
I listen, I might be wilent, but I'm just saying, listen,
Suggs is shown. Remember listen, this is the year before
they were jostling between Cole Anthony and Suggs. They had
like there was they were they were waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting.
And I'm just saying the Orlando Magic are in the
middle of obviously being among one of the top teams
in the Eastern Conference. They're not gonna dealey dally with
the idea that they're gonna get steady played from a

(55:47):
guard in Tyas Jones, who's a veteran guard, that they'll
lean in more if they have to sit Sugs or
reposition him if the offense is going to look better
with him on that floor. I believe in that because
they can't afford not to do with this kind of
window that they have to actually be in the conversation
of being an Eastern contender.

Speaker 2 (56:04):
Yeah, I think I'm just going on even like kind
of like what Dana said alluded to, you know, where
most of he's gonna want defensive guys out there, and
Suggs is a difference maker defensive, but like he impacts
it and it's not just statistically he's stopping guys, he's
tipping deflections, Like it's all the things that you want
somebody to be disruptive and then hopefully that would be
able to create some secondary offense, you know, off off
the turnovers right and getting maybe some fast break points

(56:26):
as well too. So but either way, I think Orlando's
positioned themselves to be within the running of this conversation.
So I think we bury the lead maybe long enough
in terms of talking about again the two teams that
should clearly be, at least on paper, that's the class
of the Eastern Conference. When it comes to the Cleveland
Cavaliers and the New York Knicks, then I'm going to
kick it to you. Do you think the Knicks have

(56:46):
done enough to improve their bench?

Speaker 1 (56:50):
Right?

Speaker 2 (56:50):
They they made more than a handful of moves in
addition to, you know, bringing Mike brown and as a
head coach to somebody who you would presume is going
to want to utilize that bench more. Anyway, we're what
do you see between the Knicks and the Cavaliers as
Who's Eastern Conference? Is it to lose those?

Speaker 5 (57:06):
I think it's the Calves is to lose. To me,
I think a lot of people are gonna look at
how the past three postseasons have ended for them, and
fair enough, but they were really banged up, and I
think last year was year one under Kenny Atkinson. We
saw a ton of offensive growth just looking at the
movement that happened away from the ball and then the
leap that Evan Mobley made, And to me, that's kind

(57:26):
of that might be the biggest difference between these two
teams when you think about it, The Caves are certainly deeper.

Speaker 2 (57:31):
Warren.

Speaker 5 (57:31):
You mentioned that the Knicks's depth they the bench is
definitely better, but like, I don't think people are counting
enough for the variants you're gonna see from guys like Yabusella. Yes,
he was killing it with Real Madrid for half a decade.
He's had one good NBA season and we don't know
how many minutes he's gonna be able to play. You're
looking at Jordan Clarkson is kind of towards the end
of his career and he's he was fine for Utah,

(57:53):
but that's gonna be someone Knicks fans have seen it
through the first two preseason games. He's gonna take shots
you don't want. They're trying to figure out a way
to move one of their youngsters so they can sign
both of Landry Shaman and Malcolm Brogs, And it's just
they're deeper, But I don't know if they're deep enough,
especially if you're comparing them to the Calves. I think
really the biggest difference is Evan Mobley exists, and that

(58:14):
is someone who just made He was second team All NBA.
I think he won Defensive Player of the Year. I
had him on my First Team All NBA. I thought
he belonged in the top five or six of the
MVP discussion. He's not even in his prime yet, and
so we saw him shoot the ball better, we saw
him put him on the floor, pass better, deal with
physicality better. There are questions about like the wings there now,

(58:37):
like and who's gonna defend at the point of attack
most consistently. There are questions there. But if you have
someone who is already an All Star and All NBA
player and they're still getting better, it's kind of like
Kag Cunningham and Detroit, except Cleveland has surrounded Evan Mobley
with another All NBA player in Donovan Mitchell, another All
NBA player in Darius Garland, if he can remain healthy.

(58:59):
I think that's the bigger difference to me is that
I think the Calves at the top of their roster,
their top guys, are better collectively then the Knicks's top guys,
where it's it's Jalen Brunson and then it's all right,
who really is their second most important player. You're not
dealing with that hierarchical tug of war in Cleveland to
me as much, and if you are, it's almost in
a good way. And then there their bench is just deeper.

(59:19):
Even Yeah, the Max Drews injury is kind of a bummer.
And you also look at it's well they have Sam
Merrill and now they have Lonzo Ball DeAndre Hunters. There,
they just they have so many answers, and so I
think going into this season we can leave open the
door for anything to happen. But I do think that
the Calves should be considered the favorites in the east
of them.

Speaker 1 (59:36):
Now, Gold take a seat, man, look, let the Calves cook.
Let the Calves cook. That's just what it comes down to.
If I'm Kenny Atkinson, don't mess with the recipe. Man,
let them cook. It would be one thing if when
they when the Cavaliers.

Speaker 3 (59:53):
Brought Donovan Mitchell, Donovan Mitchell is like, you know, I
gotta figure out a way to take this team to
the Promised Land. And I think even he he realizes
this team goes where Evan Mobley goes. Right night in
night out, Evan Mobley is and Shaw has been on
Evan like that's his young son. For like, I don't
know how many years he has been saying, watch for
this kid, watch for this kid.

Speaker 1 (01:00:13):
And we've been waiting, been waiting, waiting. You know what
I'm saying, It's finally come. And if Evan Mobley takes
another leap, which he is completely capable of doing, the
New York Knicks really don't have an answer for that
version of what Evan Mogley brings you on that night
and night out. Basis, even in the playoffs, none of

(01:00:34):
the teams in the Eastern Conference is going to be
able to deal with what Evan Mobley is capable of bringing.
And again to your point, Dan haven't even scratched, so
he's not even in his prime. So all of that
is that I'm saying is is that when you even
got guys around you that knows it, they can play better.
But at the end of the day, they they all
collectively can be in a space where they can dominate

(01:00:55):
in each and every single facet, whether it's from the
front court to the back court. The Cleveland Cavaliers have
shown they have all of the pieces in place to
do it. The point that I think you were making
is have they improved their bench? And they definitely have
done that, barred that those guys stay healthy, and then
I think the key here is Atkinson taking that step up.

(01:01:16):
I believe that I'm in that class of elite coaches
knows how to coach this kind of talent and make
this work. It's going to be a tough hell because
as much as I want to buy into the New
York Knicks being that kind of team, we still have
those question marks about Karl Anthony Towns. We're still going
to have those question marks about Mike Brown coaching in
those type of situations and in those type of games.

(01:01:37):
So at the end of the day, the New York
Knicks are going to definitely be among one of the
top two teams. Hey, they may even have the better
regular season record.

Speaker 3 (01:01:44):
Event but at the to me, when I saying, Okay,
who do I think is probably going to walk out
of the East, this is about as good as it gets.

Speaker 1 (01:01:51):
Barring we see.

Speaker 3 (01:01:52):
The evolution of Evan Mobley for the twenty five to
twenty six season, because he, to me, is the key.
He is the standout person I think everybody should watch for,
and I think he may even wind up being one
of the top three conversations for MVP because of what
impact he's going to have for the Caps.

Speaker 2 (01:02:07):
That's super lofty, but I'll take I'll take the journey
with you. You know, I think Cleveland on paper makes a
lot of sense. I'm also a person over the moment
in terms of them getting just railroaded by the Pacers
that last year. Like, to me, it has nothing to
do with the regular season at this point anymore. It's like,
what can they do really when it matters most?

Speaker 1 (01:02:24):
And there's a.

Speaker 2 (01:02:25):
Question, And you know, I'm you know, as a man,
I don't want to question in another man's heart, But
as a team, I'd say, well, what happens. There was
something something didn't drive right for me last year when
it came to that, And yes, they have the nagging
injury and Garland is already still dealing with the turf
toe and it's just like stuff like that that gives
me a lot of palls when it comes to wanting
to push all my ships in on the Cleveland Cavaliers.
I think they'll be a highly competent regular season team

(01:02:49):
yet again and should be one or two in the
Eastern Conference. But it's about what they do in the
playoffs here now, and Atkinson and Donovan Mitchell like they
all know that, and then they know that Mobile needs
to be kind of like to go to God. And
I like what they did again. And Lonzo ball awesome,
great moves long so he can stay healthy, even a
fringe move like Laryn Ands Junior coming to this team again,
that's awesome. Again, He's a competent dude who can help

(01:03:09):
and assist in a lot of different ways. But to me,
just what are they going to do when it really
matters most? And I don't think, well, I don't think
they're gonna catch anybody by surprise this year, them running
off and shooting the three, that the way they did,
playing defense, in the way they did even last year too,
Like I think they caught a lot of people flat
foot of like yo, this Cat's team is really like
this buzzsaw that won't happen again this year despite even

(01:03:30):
some of the improvements that they made and DeAndre Hunter
having an opportunity to be for the entire day of
the season. I just I'm a little bit more down
on them as a on their overall perspectives, but recognize
how much talent they have and who they should be
in the Eastern Conference.

Speaker 1 (01:03:44):
Interesting. I want to ask both of you guys a
quick question.

Speaker 3 (01:03:47):
Do you think by them going out and winning the
Emirates Cup that that would give you confidence, like some
level of confidence about how you want to see them.
I mean, and I know you have them favored, but
I mean, do you think it's important for a team
like the Cleveland Cavaliers or maybe even in New York Knicks.
Do you think it's important for those teams to go

(01:04:09):
out there win the Emirates Cup Or is it more
important for teams like the Magic, the Hawks or the
Pistons to go out there and win that Emirates Cup
as a you know, kind of like as a as
a demarcation for how confident we want to see them,
you know, for the remainder of the of the regular season.

Speaker 5 (01:04:27):
Yeah, I would think it's more important for like the Magic, Hawks,
Pistons type team. I think Knicks fans would have PTSD
if they're really going for the Emirates Cup in the
middle of the season, after seeing how Tom Thibodeau ran
his squad and with Cleveland, I think Warren just mentioned
it is that it's all kind of about what can
they be in the postseason, because I think overall, they
just have the bigger margin for error than maybe any team,

(01:04:48):
and these are conference like, you can take an All
Star out of their lineup and they would probably still
win fifty plus games next year. But how does that
translate to the postseason what we're still waiting to see.
So that's a team specifically that I would assume well
man itself like for to be optimal during the postseason.

Speaker 4 (01:05:03):
And the Knicks are in a similar fashion. And yeah,
Mike Brown is new there.

Speaker 5 (01:05:07):
He kind of relied a lot on the top of
his rotation before he left Sacramento, but he's coming to
New York talking about running ten deep. I think the
you know you guys have both mentioned the Pacers a
couple of times, the Pacers, the Thunder, even the Rockets
a little bit.

Speaker 4 (01:05:19):
I think that they've really.

Speaker 5 (01:05:19):
Changed the way that teams view how they construct their rosters.
Is that nine to ten, even eleven deep is now
of real NBA players, is now the goal. And so
I think teams like the Knicks and the Calves to
where they're just all in.

Speaker 4 (01:05:32):
They are.

Speaker 5 (01:05:33):
They might have outs and different things that they can
still do, but they are so clearly all in on
this season. I don't think it's as important for either
of them to win the Emirates Cup.

Speaker 2 (01:05:43):
I would agree one thousand percent, you know, And it's
just it's not the barometer that I think we might
have hoped it would have been. Right at any state like,
it just isn't so. But those younger teams, like that's
like they're trying to air quote prove something even not
only to the world, but even to themselves. Right, can
they compete at this playoff like level in the middle
of the season, you know, in December or whatever the

(01:06:04):
case may be. But Cleveland and New York know that
it's about April and May for them, and that's where
they should ultimately put all their hopes and dreams and
aspirations when it comes to this upcoming of the season.

Speaker 3 (01:06:15):
All right, So I'm gonna start with you Shaw when
me as your final thoughts. When it's all said and done,
who do you think is going to represent the East
for the twenty five twenty six NBA season.

Speaker 2 (01:06:28):
Yeah, I'd be a hypocrite if I you know, went
otherwise right now, So I'm gonna I'm gonna go with
the Knicks, and not because I'm excited about it, I think,
you know, but there's a lot of you know, lived
experience that they have by almost making it there last year.
There is some depth that I think is going to
be helpful to them. Obviously, think is always injury dependent,
but I think they they they are poison essence to

(01:06:50):
to to win the Eastern Conference this year. While I'm
excited to see other teams compete, especially in this year
that we're talking about in terms of contenders, I got
New York going to the East, going to the NBA Finals.
Then I'll kick it over to you.

Speaker 4 (01:07:02):
I have the Calves going to the finals.

Speaker 5 (01:07:04):
But I would just shout out, I'll just keep an
eye the three on the Hawks. It just wouldn't surprise
me if they're a team that comes out of the
East this year when you look at the depth and
the balance of their roster right now, like that, Dan.

Speaker 2 (01:07:14):
I like that's spicy, and I liked it. I'm a
co signed up.

Speaker 1 (01:07:20):
Ah, very nice. All right, Well listen, I'm a prisoner
of the moment. I'm gonna go with the Calves. I
think they finally cracked the code and they they find
themselves in the dance much like the Indiana Pacers did.
I don't know if it's gonna be at the expense
of the New York Knicks.

Speaker 3 (01:07:36):
But maybe I will take a little bit of joy
in some of you know, those high profile Knicks fans
that just keep love gassing as team's head up and
set setting them up for disappointment. Uh I, I you know,
to me, I think Kenny Atkinson is due of the

(01:07:56):
coaches that I wanted so badly want. I would love
to see Mike Brown put himself in the position to
try and win it, man, redeem himself for you know,
so many years of not being you know, taken seriously,
you know, as a as a head coach. But I
just think that Atkinson he loves working with this group.

Speaker 1 (01:08:13):
Man.

Speaker 3 (01:08:14):
I think it's one year too short. I wish Tibbs
was still coaching, because then I probably would have been
a little bit more confident about the Knicks's opportunity and
chance this season.

Speaker 1 (01:08:23):
I think they may need an extra year.

Speaker 2 (01:08:25):
Well I will not poo poo that in any way.
And I think any Atkinson is already an a lead
level coach, Like I mean, he's that guy right now.
Just a matter of again, can they do it? It would?
It matters most so, I think this has been an
amazing conversation in the Eastern Conference, you know, with the
amazing Dan Valley. Dan, thank you so much. Tell people
where they can find your stuff, anything you have upcoming

(01:08:46):
before we let your ride out.

Speaker 5 (01:08:48):
Well, first and foremost, thank you guys so much for
having me. It was a blast kind of chopping it
up with you about the East. And if anyone wants
to find me, I would just advocate to check out
the Hardwood Knocks NBA podcast if you don't have enough
NBA podcast in your life.

Speaker 4 (01:09:00):
We have a lot of fun over there. My co
host tonight.

Speaker 1 (01:09:02):
Oh yeah, they're there, they are they are the shiz knit.

Speaker 3 (01:09:05):
I'm going to old school with my uh my youphism.

Speaker 1 (01:09:09):
Yeah, exactly know what I'm saying. Uh Man, They're great.
Love love the conversations that you guys do. And and
again Man, thank you for bringing that over, you know,
to our doorstep. I'm sure our listeners are always in
favor of the people that we rock with and Dan,
we love rock.

Speaker 5 (01:09:24):
With you and your crew.

Speaker 2 (01:09:25):
Bro.

Speaker 4 (01:09:27):
Thank you guys so much.

Speaker 1 (01:09:28):
Absolutely for everybody. Man, listen, this is the East. Obviously
we've got the West and then NBA season kicks off.
But as always, we appreciate you and yours for hopping
off board with us. This week'special shout out to our
man Danvali from Hardwood Knocks for the baseline Cali warren Shaw.
We appreciate you guys, you know we do, and we'll
catch up with you next time.

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