Rob McConnell Interviews - LOYD AUERBACH - Director of the Office of Paranormal Investigations - The Best of The 'X' Zone Radio/TV Show with Rob McConnell

Episode Transcript
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(00:07):
Hi. This is Brian O'Day,executive producer of Creepy Canada at Creepycanada dot
com. Hey, Rob, wewant to wish you and all the members
of X Zone Nation a real merryChristmas and a terrific New Year. Make
it a spooky one, folksy ohhriy. Welcome to the X Zone,

(00:44):
a place where fact is fiction andfiction is reality. Now here's your host,
rob Occonno doing that thing eat bringingthe heart into a million pieces like

(01:08):
you always dog untill needs you needin about the hearty little time time to
get you there. I'm just sohaunts you do every time you do that

(01:36):
thing you do. And welcome tothe Exon everyone. I am Rob McConnell
and for the next hour I willbe your host and your guidess. Together
we will cross the time space continueto this place that I call the X
Zone. It's a place where peopledare to believe and dare to be heard.

(01:57):
It's a place where fact is fictionand fiction is reality. And the
X Zone comes to Monday through Fridayat eleven pm Eastern right here on your
hometown Radio Classic twelve twenty and we'restreamed around the world. On Classic twelve
twenty dot CA. Now, ifyou'd like to send me an email.
If you have any comment, guestsuggestions, or if you need help in

(02:17):
a paranormal situation and you just don'tknow who to go to, send me
an email. I'll be glad tohelp you out at X Zone at Classic
twelve twenty dot ca Xonation. Myguess this hour is Lloyd at Aurbaka.
I've had the pleasure of knowing Lloydfor a number of years now. He's
world recognized as a paranormal expert andparapsychologist. He has forty three years plus

(02:44):
investigating the paranormal and over forty yearsteaching courses in parapsychology, with thousands of
media appearances. He is the Directorof the Office of Paranormal Investigations, President
of the Forever Family Foundation, anda junct professor at Atlantic Universe and is
the director of the Board of Directorsof the Ryan Research Center, which where

(03:06):
he teaches courses online in parapsychology.Joining me now is Lloyd or back in?
Lloyd, welcome back to the xcelland all was great speaking to you.
How have you been, my friend? Been very good? Rop Thank
you and it's great to be back. So tell me, is there anything
new, thrilling and exciting in theworld of parapsychology. That's a really good

(03:28):
question. I think that we're justkind of plodding along with our research for
the most part. There's some reallyinteresting research going on at the Rhyan Center
these days, and some continued researchof course looking at life after death with
mediums. You know, Bob RobertBigelow Bigelow Consciousness Institute of Conscious Studies has

(03:49):
money out again this time for researchfor a number of researchers doing things.
So those are really the high pointsother than the continued exis since and activity
of the Society for Psychical Research overin the UK. Lloyd, how did
you become interested in parapsychology? Itwas partly because of my interests as a

(04:12):
kid in science and in folklore,and influence from pop culture, mainly television,
comic books and science fiction. Idiscovered books in the library about the
science, books on parapsychology probably whatI was about twelve years old, after
hearing the word used on the TVshow Dark Shadows. Oh my gosh,

(04:33):
yeah, yeah. And you know, of course the Dewey decimal system has
the same section. The one thirtythree section has parapsychology books both pop you
know, more popular, but alsothe science books also has books on vampires
and werewolves and witches too, soit's kind of an interesting area to go
to when it comes down to it. Woyd, what is your main focus

(04:54):
of your research in parapsychology? Sothese days I'm more an educate than I
am a researcher, but my focushas been mainly field work, so working
with people who report apparitions, hauntings, poltergeist phenomena, or even just talking
to them about their extra sensory perceptionexperiences, their psychic experiences in general.

(05:16):
So those have been the main thingsthat I've really been working on the last
few years for research. I alsoI also work a lot with mediums because
the Forever Family Foundation are reports upor down when it comes to experiences that
people are having within the realm ofthe paranormal. Well, I think to
places like the Ryan and the Societyfor Psychical Research, they're pretty much they're

(05:41):
pretty much the same, They're prettymuch steady. We don't really get stats
from ghost hunting groups, and there'sover three thousand of them in North America
alone, so we don't ever hearthat. You know, most of those
groups have unfortunately, don't even knowthat they're connected to our field parapsychology.
They think they're in their own field, often their own and I guess you

(06:03):
could put them out in left fieldin some respects. Something I've noticed about
the ghost hunting groups is that theydon't communicate or share information that they discover.
No, they really don't, unlessthere happen to be, you know,
somebody from their group happens to getbooked as a speaker at one of
the conferences, the ghost conferences.Well, it seems to me that they're
defeating their own purpose because I know, as a farmer law enforcement officer,

(06:26):
are the best way to crack acase is by sharing information within the law
enforcement community. Why, of course, So why wouldn't they share the information?
Well, you have to look atwhy most of them actually get into
it. You know a lot ofthem, and this is not everybody for
sure. I mean, we dohave a trickle coming from the ghost hunting
world to taking courses at the RyndCenter or folks taking other online courses offered

(06:49):
by folks in the UK. Butit's a small trickle. Most of them,
I think are mimicking what they seeon TV. They get very excited
by their evs and other so calledevidence without ever knowing even how to assess
that. But it's an experiential thingfor them. They're having an experience and
they really can't have the experience necessarilywith the ghost, so they have an

(07:12):
experience with their so called evidence andthat becomes the key piece for them.
A lot of them are hobbyists.I know. Somebody called a lot of
these folks paranormal tourists. But Italked to some of them sometimes and I
wonder, why in the world arethey not considering the why why are things
happening? And the how are thingshappening? Excell Nation, I guess this

(07:36):
hour is Lloyd our back, andLloyd is a is one of the originals
when it comes to people who havecome on radio, television, media articles
to try and explain what parapsychology isand how parapsychology is all part of the

(07:57):
existence of the world that we livein. And Lloyd is my guest this
hour here on the excell and RadioShaw on Classic twelve twenty Lloyd can you
explain to us the concept of PSIand how it released to parapsychology. Sure,
and it's not actually an acronym.It's the Greek letter Si, just
like alpha or omega. Those areGreek letters also, so Pi, which

(08:20):
represents psyche or the mind. Wasthe term kind of the overararching term that
jb Ryan kind of hit upon inthe nineteen thirties at the Duke Parapsychology Lab.
He wanted something a little cleaner thanwhat had been used before, and
it really for us side phenomena andexperiences cover experiences of information without the use

(08:43):
of the normal senses. We callthat extra sensory perception, which is really
not a sense. It's not thesixth sense, it's perception, it's nonsensory
perception. We talk about psychokinesis ormind matter interaction, mind over matter.
Actually it's also minded energy too.And then the evidence for survival of bodily
death, the consciousness itself can reachout beyond the body and actually potentially survive

(09:07):
the death of the body and providean interaction for us. How is that
research coming on near death experiences anddoubt of body experiences. Well, well,
there's significant research on near death experiencesgoing on pretty much from a lot
of different fields. You know,of course, there are folks in the
more materialists end of science. We'retrying to figure out why people have these

(09:30):
experiences from a very materialist perspective,just brain centric perspective, and they're having
a hard time with some of thereal cases that we deal with, the
ones that have the qualities that wewould call a true near death experience.
Out of body experiences do happen innear death experiences, and some of them
are going to provide verifiable information.There's not a lot of specific research in

(09:52):
the laboratory going on with OBEs rightnow, though it's it's not a funded
thing. You'll find it most Howdo you, as a para psychologist look
and quantify what is a real NDand what is not. So we have
kind of a checklist. I thinkBruce Grayson at the University of Virginia has

(10:13):
probably created the best checklist. Thereare certain constituents that consider, you know,
we would put it into a psychicconsciousness related ND versus a brain centric
experience. So one of the things, first of all, of course,
you need to be with lower activityof the body, so when we talk

(10:35):
about near death, the person's notactually dead. Dean Rayden likes to talk
about somebody whose heart stops. You'redead, your brain has no activity.
You're dead dead, and then nothinghappens to your body. There's nothing you
can't be perhaps resuscitated. That's beingtriply dead in some respects. But for
the constituents, we look at theexperience of and there may be I'm not

(10:58):
going to go over all fifteen,but there is some that are kind of
common to folks. It's fairly commonfor folks to have some form about a
body experience in this process, tolook down upon themselves from above, sometimes
seeing paramedics or surgeons or other folksworking on their body to resuscitate them.
That's not going to happen all thetime, but that does happen to a

(11:22):
large number of these folks. Thereis a common experience of going through either
a tunnel towards a light, orin some cultures around the world, people
actually go across a bridge across alittle stream of river and there's a rose
garden there. In both circumstances,some entity consciousness, someone they knew,

(11:43):
is waiting for them. It mayjust be a voice. It may be
an ancestor spirit for folks in Asiancountries, it may be your deceased parents
or somebody you know in other ways, and some people talk about it being
some form of God and they getthis idea. This is something that's very,
very common, is that they're filledwith this sense that they know so

(12:09):
much more than they do in thephysical body, and then they are either
told to go back, that it'snot their time, or they are asked
if they want to go back,And of course we only hear from the
ones that actually come back from thatcertain sense. What we do find is
after the fact, people remember havingknown had the sense of knowing everything or

(12:31):
knowing so much more, but theycan't remember what the specifics are. They
also have often a change in personalityor certainly a change in perspective, which
is not necessarily a psychic thing.You know, you died and you came
back, so you're going to changeyour philosophy anyway most of the time.
But this kind of change of outlookand how you relate to the world and

(12:52):
what you think about death, itaffects people very very deeply. But not
everybody who has a near death experiencejust the people who kind of fall into
these into the checklist. You mightsay, why do you think that I'm
going to ask you this question whenwe come back, because I've only got
about a minute before i have totake my break. So the question I'm

(13:15):
going to ask you to answer whenwe come back is where does reincarnation fit
into the realm of near death experienceand death itself? X oonation. I
guess this hour is Lloyd Hour back, and it's going to be an interesting
hour. If you'd like to visitour website x on at x xone.

(13:35):
Well let's try this again x onradio TV dot com. If you'd like
to send me an email xxone atClassic twelve twenty dot CA. And this
is the x on Am Rob McConnell. We're coming to you on your hometown
radio Classic twelve twenty and streaming aroundthe world on Classic twelve twenty dot CA.
Lloydourback and I will be back onthe other side of this break.
Don't go away. So Christmas Christmas. My name is Michael Talktar. This

(14:35):
is Psychic Dorothy. Hello, myname is Holly Reed Eliot. Hi.
This is Patrick Cross, This isleft Corey. This is John Hi.
This is Eric Rawl. Hi,this is Blade Runners. Hi, I'm
Lewis. My name is Lady Ashley. Hey you, this is Rick Emerson
and you're listening to the X Zonewith Rob McConnell. I'm singing into the

(15:15):
world. It's time we let thespirit come me, let it come on,
and I'm singing into the world.Everybody's called in the speed looking.
Well we've been We've been running aroundhere after the year, blinded with pride

(15:37):
and blinded with but in same waylater our back is my special guest of
this our exhonation, and we're talkingabout everything within the realm of the world
of parapsychology. And this is theexcellent on Classic twelve twenty streaming around the

(15:58):
world on PLAST twelve twenty dot CALloyd. Before we went to the break,
I asked you a question about reincarnation. Where does reincarnation fit in to
if any place in the world ofparapsychology and the investigation into death. Well,
reincarnation is the idea, of coursethat our consciousness can be reborn.

(16:22):
It's believed by over a billion anda half people on the planet in some
way, shape or form, andwe have cases that have been investigated going
back to the nineteen sixties, actuallystarting around nineteen sixty, of children who
remember previous lives, some of whichare extraordinarily specific with information that can to

(16:45):
track down the previous personality. Sowhere it fits within our realm of parapsychology
is under the heading of survival ofbodily death, that something about that personality
has survived the death of the bodyand is now in someone else, whether
that is you know, we stayaway as much as we can from the
idea of the religious term which issole, especially soul typically has religious connotations,

(17:11):
but we don't know what's exactly what'sreborn in that sense. We don't
know whether it's consciousness actually the spiritbeing reborn, or whether there's some connection
to memory. But it's a reallyfascinating phenomenon that we do. The folks
at the University of Virginia especially,have been looking into since nineteen sixty.
I understand that there are some peoplewho are into the investigation of reincarnation believe

(17:38):
that it may have something to dowith the DNA of the person. Yeah,
that would work fine if there wasa familial connection between the current person
and the previous person. But that'snot the case in so many of these
circumstances. I mean, you'd you'dhave to be reincarnated in the direct family
line, and there has to beDNA passed down directly with memory of that

(18:00):
person, assuming that DNA actually capturedthe memory at all, Right, And
that's not the case. That's notwhat we see in most of these circumstances.
It is a fascinating subject, andI'm sure that you and other researchers
are trying your very best to uncoverthis mystery as well as answer questions to
the many others that you're faced with. What are some of the main theories

(18:22):
or models used in parapsychological research.Well, I'll just say right off the
bat that we are at a situationwith our field where we don't have a
central theory. We don't even knowif he ESPN, PK psychokinesis are connected
as two sides of the same coin, if they're connected in that way.

(18:45):
But one of the models right nowthat's been emerging relates to consciousness studies and
consciousness research in general, that ourexperience with pulling information from the world around
us is something called non local consciousness, that our consciousness may be may or
may not be generated by the brain, may or may not reside wholly inside

(19:07):
our heads. There's a lot oftheories in general about consciousness itself, but
that our consciousness is capable of pluckinginformation from the world around us and from
other people, and we're not sureexactly how the process works. Some folks
that look to the quantum world forthat. Others are concerned about the fact

(19:30):
that, well, how does theinformation get that small, and then how
does it kind of scale back up, and how do we pick up that
kind of thing. Until we knowwhat consciousness is, we're kind of stuck
with psychokinesis. We have sometimes candetect the motive force for something moving,
and then that person might attempt tomove something again, and that detectable motive

(19:52):
force is missing. So it's almostas if there's a process, of a
random process of whatever. The easiestthing is to move something with intention seems
to be the one that's working inthat moment. Whether we look forward or
not, it's all about It's allabout consciousness, though, Lloyd, have
you personally encountered any paranormal phenomenon duringyour research a lot quite a bit over

(20:18):
the years. What has been themost significant, well, for me,
some of the most significant has beenactually there's two areas. One has been
psychokinesis. Working with a gent backin the nineties by the name of Martin
Caden, who was a science andscience fiction writer. He was an aeronautics
expert and actually an aerospace consultant.He was actually a consultant to NASA in

(20:45):
fact, and Marty, if anybodyrecognizes that name, it's maybe because you
read some of science fiction, includinga book called Cyborg, which was the
basis of the six million Dollar Man. Wrote a book called Maroon back in
the sixties which pretty much predicted theApollo thirteen disaster. He was made into
an Academy Award winning film with GregoryPeck. So Marty had been around for

(21:07):
a long time and he was capableof moving small objects under very control conditions.
I'm not the only one who workedwith him. He actually worked with
a bunch of guys from NASA anda number of other folks who well they
didn't publish anything because they were youknow, NASA guys on their own time.
Looking at what he could do.It was pretty impressive to see what

(21:29):
he was able to do, andwe even learned how to teach other people
to do it lied on a littlebited basis, So that's pretty special.
Some of the mediumship that I've workedwitness, some of the evidential mediumship I've
witnessed, has been incredibly rich withinformation they could not have known, but
not even factual information. It's someof the personality context, you know,

(21:52):
some of the they would some amedium would say something like, you know,
say something your dad used to hehad a certain limp that he had,
and the person would then imitate thatand then would say something like he
also used to use this phrase aspart of his conversation when he was frustrated.
So you get these little things thatyou would never find. I mean,
I suppose now we're going to havea generation going forward as people die

(22:15):
off for much younger today, they'reall on TikTok. Their lives are open
books, so all that information willbe out there. Lloyd, how do
you distinguish between genuine paranormal experiences andhoaxes or misinterpretations. Well, for one
thing, we have patterns we've noticedover the last one hundred and forty plus

(22:37):
years in our field. There arevery clear patterns in how people experience things.
There are some outliers, of course, but there are patterns and what
people experience and how they experience them, and sometimes how it affects them.
There are some clear influences we getsometimes when people are telling a story,
it's like there their interpretation of theexperience might be more related to pop culture,

(23:03):
but if you ask them a fewquestions, you actually get to the
heart of it. And we lookfor those things that are falling into the
patterns. Whether it is a ghostexperience or an esp experience, we see
those kinds of things happening. Thereare certain aspects of psychic experience that just
ring true when you hear the stories, and for the most part, you

(23:26):
know, I've exposed several phony psychicsover the years. I've also found psychics
and mediums who I would never workwith because their personality was not simply one
worth working with right, you know, or they didn't have ethics at all.
So it really is a case bycase basis, and we basically look
at people's experiences. I don't findthat most people are going to make something

(23:49):
up just to please me, especiallywhen they don't want their neighbors or even
their spouses to know. About theexperience explanation. Lloyd Auerback is my special
guest and the world of the scienceof parapsychology is one of the most upcoming
sciences in my opinion, Lloyd,and you're listening to us here tonight on

(24:11):
the X Zone from our broadcast centerand studios in Saint Catharine's, Ontario,
on Classic twelve twenty. Lloyd,what are some of the commonly used methods
or techniques in parapsychological investigations. Well, if you're talking about laboratory research,
the two most I wouldn't say common, but two most successful techniques use methodologies

(24:36):
use are what we call the Gonsfeldtechnique, which involves a mild sensory deprivation
of the receiver of the person who'sgoing to pull the information. And the
other one is remote viewing, whichhas had enormous success in the military program,
the Stargate program, but also hasbeen applied in a lot of very

(24:59):
specific ways with success in law enforcement, UH, in corporate work in other
areas as well. UH. Thenthere are some other areas of research,
for example of mediumship, there's alot of research going on with what's with
what's happening in their brains at thetime that they're communicating with spirits versus when
they're not, and looking at brainwavepatterns and other things in brain activity.

(25:23):
So we are working with neuroscientists andother folks to see what's happening when people
are having these experiences. Fascinating.Yeah, what challenges do parapsychologists face in
terms of credibility and acceptance within thescientific community. Well here in the United
in the in North America. It'sa little different in the UK for the

(25:45):
most part, but in North Americaand especially in the United States, the
skeptics organizations have had a dramatic effecton making it difficult for people in academia
from science even express their interest inthe subject, except maybe in a one

(26:06):
on one conversation with one of us. This goes back to the nineteen seventies
and it's very difficult to have thisconversation in any academic setting in general.
But we are now more and morebecause more and more researchers, scientists in
a variety of fields of study aregetting interested in the question about what consciousness

(26:26):
is. We are a field thatstudies consciousness. We study effects of consciousness
directly. You know, we're insome respects parapsychology is on the side of
psychology, because psychology studies behavior,and there are various models of the mind
without looking at the greater idea ofwhat consciousness is, what actually causes the
mind, for example. So that'ssomething that we're interested in, and we

(26:48):
provide research in that area, andwe're getting some more inroads in cooperation with
various researchers in other fields. Butfor the most part, we hear in
academic world that people either only bebothered with us or they think it's all
pseudoscience because they get the message ofthe skeptics they're not really skeptics we like

(27:10):
to call them pseudo skeptics, orthey're just simply afraid. You know,
we have some implications that are kindof scary to people such as well for
psychologists. Think about this for asecond. If people can actually pick up
information without saying or observing with theirnormal senses, maybe like what happened with

(27:32):
Carl Jung, people might pick upthings on this on the Therapist. On
the Psychologist, Ah, Carl Jungwrote about that quite a bit about his
clients sometimes talking about what was inhis mind or what was going on with
them. So that's a little bitdaunting, I think for psychology. It
certainly shows that communication is truly atwo way street, receiving and transmitting.

(27:57):
Lloyd stand by, we've got totake our ex O nation. I guess
this hour is Lloyd Hour back.And if you'd like to find out more
about Lloyd or maybe you'd like tocontact him, there's two websites right now.
His website is under construction, butthere's the Ryan dot org website Ryan

(28:17):
dot org. That's r H In E dot org and for Forever Forever
Forever Friendly Foundation or Forever Family FoundFamily Foundation. You can't even read my
own writing at times. Explanation.This is the X one. We're coming
to from the studios of Classic twelvetwenty and we're streamed around the world on

(28:41):
Classic twelve twenty dot CA. I'mRob McConnell. We'll be back on the
other side of the break dunk away. Hi, Rob McConnell and all of
your crew. Is this Georgina Cannonfrom the Ontario Nurses Center, Clinic and
School and wishing you and yours thebest year ever and to remember to celebrate

(29:07):
World Hypnosis Day on Jeffers the fourth. Get all of those changes in line
and make it happen for yourself.Happy New Year. I was waiting for

(29:38):
soul for very cold. Everyone toldme to Welcome back is the X Zone

(30:00):
and we're coming to you from theBroadcast Entrance Studios in Saint Catharines on Classic
twelve twenty streaming around the world Classictwelve twenty dot CA. Lloyd Dauerback is
my special guest. And Lloyd,how do you describe or what is your
description of consciousness? It is thatthing that makes us us. It is

(30:27):
you know, we can call itconsciousness, is mind spirits. It is
everything that is you in terms ofintellect, emotion, and interactivity. Are
there any ethical considerations or guidelines thata parapsychologist needs to follow in their research.

(30:51):
Yeah, Like with any science research, if you're doing laboratory research,
you usually work for the institutional reviewboard to make sure that you're treating the
participants in an ethical way and safelyas well. We in fact, at
the Rhyne Center, the executive directorthere, John Kruth, and I teach
a course. Co teach a courseon ethics and field investigation kind of applying

(31:15):
the idea of the institutional review boardto specific types of investigations and when you
might not need it. But theunderscoring piece there is that we need to
treat people with respect and in away that's safe for them and for us,
and that, by the way,goes also for the ghosts. If
we might run it in to whatextent, Lloyd, do you think that

(31:41):
cultural beliefs and superstitions influence parapsychology aswell as the parapsychological phenomena, Well,
they really influence, for the mostpart the interpretation of the experiences people actually
have. But looking at this froma worldwide from across cultural perspective, you
find that different cultures have different Iguess rankings of things. So some things

(32:04):
that we might consider weird in ourculture, like moving an object with your
mind in another culture might be avery normal thing. Whereas the idea that
we might be able to get anyidea, any information from the future would
be only limited to the specific I'msorry, go on, sorry about that
all right, would only be limitedto a very specific type of person like

(32:25):
a magic wield or a shaman orsomebody else in another culture. In Reincarnation,
we talked about reincarnation before. Soin some cultures you can only be
reincarnated in the direct family line accordingto the beliefs of that culture. But
in many other cultures you are notallowed to be reincarnated in the direct family
line, so by belief. Andof course, what we find is that

(32:49):
in these various cultures that have rulesof what happens and what doesn't happen,
we see reports that match what happenswhat doesn't happen. So in other words,
we get only reports or mainly reportthe things that are allowed to happen
by those culturally set rules. Andit's really impossible at this point to know
whether the rules shape the experiences becauseof people's belief, or that people are

(33:14):
not reporting things because it wouldn't fitthe accepted kinds of experiences. Can you
provide us with some examples, Lloydof noteworthy psychics are mediums whose abilities have
been studied in parapsychology and that yousay, wow, they're a legit.

(33:34):
Well, we can go back intime a little bit to a very well
known medium in the nineteen thirties,forties and fifties, Eileen Garrett, who
was studied by a number of researchersand actually was never unlike a lot of
the skeptics going after people today orfor the last thirty forty years, she
was never even criticized for her abilities. She actually took all the money that

(34:00):
she made and funneled into the ParapsychologyFoundation, an educational foundation. So she
was one Ingo Swan who came tofame because of the Stargate program, the
military program. Actually was a wellknown research subject for out of body experience
and eventually for remote viewing. Sohe was in the sixties and seventies and

(34:22):
into the eighties as well, andhe actually came up with a basic method
for remote viewing that was used originallyby Target put Off and the folks that
they trained that they worked with.Another one I can mention is Alex Tannis,
for whom the Rhine Research Center's libraryis named for. Tannis Foundation supports

(34:43):
the Rhine Center to some extent.I knew Alex, and Alex was our
out of body experience subject at theAmerican Society for Psychic Research when I worked
there actually from around the mid seventiesto the mid eighties. I was only
involved from the Education department perspective,but I got to know Alex very well.
And not only did Alex do fairlywell in the research, but he

(35:07):
was consulted quite a bit by BellevueHospital with cancer patients for healing purposes or
diagnostic purposes, so medical intuitive perspectivesand studied by them. And I will
also say that when I worked atthe ASPR back in the early eighties,
every time Alex was visiting, whichwas every other week from he came down
from Maine to do the research,he was also visited by somebody from NYPD,

(35:34):
Boston p D, Philadelphia Police Department, the FBI, some law enforcement
folks were always consulting with him.And you never heard about that because he
was asked not to talk about it. And then I can mention my friend,
my late friend Anette Martin, whoyou knew, who did research on
being as a medical intuitive diagnosing patientsat a hospital working with a medical doctor

(35:59):
in San Noise, and she didsome other kinds of research as well as
a subject. And then these daysthe folks who are the certified research the
research certified mediums for the Windbridge ResearchCenter which is Windbridge dot org, they
went through a lengthy process to bevetted and to make sure that they could

(36:21):
perform under the most stringent controls ofknowing nothing about who they were supposed to
contact other than a first name.Along with that, the mediums for the
Forever Family Foundation. Our certification processis also a science based process to eliminate
any possibility that these folks would havegotten any additional information from somewhere else or

(36:44):
been using cold reading. And I'lltell you that ten less than ten percent
of the folks who try that certificationpass. Really, how did pyropsychologists like
yourself account for skeptics viewpoints and septicismin general, Well, skepticism is good,
I mean, real skepticism is agood thing. That may mean that

(37:07):
you don't make up your mind,you but at least you look at the
evidence, or you basically say Idon't care, you know, that would
be a more honest way to approachit. Most of the folks who call
themselves skeptics are not really skeptics.They are disbelievers or at least lean in
that direction. And it may notbe for all the phenomena, but they,

(37:30):
you know, accounting for it,well, a lot of them are
pure materialists. You know, theylook at the world through the eyes of
materialist philosophy, which is unfortunately thebasis of most of our physical sciences certainly,
and even leeds over into social sciencequite a bit. For that perspective,
you can't even fathom how there couldbe consciousness without the body, or

(37:53):
consciousness going beyond the body, oreven picking up information without the use of
the normal sense. So, youknow, it's a belief thing. It's
it's and in some respects, Ihave to tell you that I've met people
who are true believers. I've metpeople who are religious folks who are not
happy with what we do because theysay, well, we're doing the work
of the devil. And I've metsome of the pseudo skeptics who totally disbelieve

(38:16):
in all of this, and Iwill say that they're all pretty much the
same. Their belief level. Isit's faith really that? Yeah, it's
faith that this doesn't exist. Arethere any ongoing collaborative efforts between parapsychologists like
yourself and other scientific disciplines. Well, yeah, I mean we have first

(38:37):
of all, the Parapsychological Association andfolks in the who do research in the
field, you know, because therereally aren't any degree programs. Well,
I take that back. There's acouple of degree programs these days. The
University of Edinburgh has a program ofwhich gives PhDs with an emphasis on parapsychology

(38:58):
within their psychology department. But youfind that in our field we have physicists,
we have anthropologists, we have alot of psychology degree or backgrounds,
we have biologists, neuroscientists. Youknow, parapsychology in many respects is an
interdisciplinary study and an interdisciplinary science.Almost every physical and social science can be

(39:21):
brought in, and we do wantto do that. We want to have
that kind of cross talk and veryoften we have some discussion. If you
at the Parapsychological Association conventions that haveeither physics facet, neuroscience facet, you
know, psychology, it brings itall in, brings it all together.
In your opinion, Lloyd, whatare some of the potential applications or practical

(39:45):
uses of parapsychology research. Well,you know, for one thing, you
know, the research is giving usan idea of who the kind of person
who might be more psychic or ableto access these either of these abilities.
So we're going to step away fromsurvival of bodily death for a minute with

(40:06):
ESPN p K on a healing perspective. You know, there's a potential for
aiding the healing of an individual.You know, we don't necessarily know that
somebody a healer comes in and forceshealing on someone. It doesn't seem to
work that way, but healing wouldbe one aspect of things certainly on the
esp front, everything from finding lostpeople, finding dead bodies, which you

(40:30):
know we're talking about the law enforcementapplications, but search and rescue. I
mean, I think that that isan untapped area in many respects because people
don't want to consult someone on that, so search and rescue is one.
There have been many applications of remoteviewing, for psychic spying, for espionage.

(40:52):
You know, I wrote a coauthor of a book called esp Wars
East and West about the history ofour government's per but also history of the
Russian programs as well, and there'sa lot in there about the application.
It's not just psychic spying, it'salso finding people, finding things you know
as much as people you know.And I'll say that Uri Geller is kind

(41:15):
of a controversial figure. I liketo think that he's still saying what he
did when I asked him years agoif he was a psychic, and he
said, oh, I'm an entertainer. Everybody's psychic, So if that gives
you an idea. But Ury madehis money finding oil wells and mineral deposits,
and he loved to say, heloved to say, if that was

(41:37):
dumb luck, then I'm the luckiestguy in the world. Yeah. I
remember having him on the show manytimes in years gone by, and the
last show he was on, hetold us that he had actually been an
intelligence agent and that he would walkby certain areas that the intelligence community would
ask him to go by to seewhere the Russian the Russians were actually located

(42:02):
in different cities with their intelligence gatheringout equipment as well as their agents.
Well, I mean that certainly fitswith what was done with the Stargate program.
Yeah, yeah, you know.And the thing that is really interesting
about that program, because here weagain have the skeptics saying that there was
no success in that program. Theactual report that came out that came to

(42:23):
that conclusion was only looking at thelast year and a half of the program,
when they were pretty much not givenany tasks at all by the CIA,
and in fact we have it avery good authority from the guy who
actually sealed up the top secret classifiedboxes to send to Washington for that assessment

(42:45):
that when he checked after the reportcame out, those boxes were still sealed,
so they never looked the reports.Ed May, who's the program,
was the program director for many years. His point was over, I think
it was seventeen out of twenty one, Lloyd. I'm going out to cut
you off here, my friend,because I've got to take my break Exzonation.
Lloyd hour back, and I willbe back with you on the other

(43:07):
side of this break. And you'relistening to the x oone radio show on
Classic twelve twenty Classic twelve twenty dotCA Datings, everyone. It's Craig web
here, executive director of the DreamsFoundation's online at Triple W dot Dreams dot

(43:30):
PA, and just really wanted tosend out great blessings or Rob McConnell and
all the listeners and viewers of theWorldwide ex Zonation for a happy Hanukkah,
merry Christmas and a soulful Soulstice.And with that in mind, I'm mainly
connect with your soul and keep thestreams of your spirit and bring them forth

(43:52):
in twenty eleven for a true experienceof lucid living. Blessings to all see

(44:43):
cantain visu and welcome back everyone.This is the excellent I am Rob McConnell.
We're coming to you from your hometownradio Classic twelve twenty and streamed around
the world on Class twt CA.Lloyd Hourback is our special guest this hour.

(45:05):
If you'd like to check out acouple of websites Forever Familyfoundation dot org
and Ryan dot org. And asalways Lloyd, thank you so much for
joining us. All is great pleasuretalking to you. Dreams. Where do
dreams fit in in the world ofparapsychology. Well, dreams, like any

(45:27):
other form of altered state of consciousness, or even our normal state, our
fertile platform for people to have psychicexperiences, and in some respects probably more
fertile than our waking state, youknow, kind of in the dream state,
all bets are off, the rulesdon't really apply, and our biases
well they might come out in metaphorin our beliefs. Psychic information can bleed

(45:51):
through very easily. I wrote aboutthis in my book Psychic dreaming, which
is still available, so they're reallyit's the kind of thing that when people
have a psychic dream, they knowit was different, they remember it better,
and it really feels very different tothem than the average dream. Where
where does the other aspects of theparanormal fit into the world of parapsychology,

(46:15):
for example, ghost, hauntings,Bigfoot, UFOs, Is there any place
in parapsychology for these classifications, well, ghosts or what we call apparitions.
The idea is the idea that theconsciousness survives the death of the body,
so that falls under survival of bodilydeath. And you know, indirectly they

(46:36):
that idea fits right in because ifyou're without a body, the only way
you can perceive the world is ifyou have nonsensory perception, So that's the
sp Hauntings are are something connected tothe environment that we as living people pick
up. We're picking up some historyof some kind that's imprinted somehow in the

(46:59):
environment, or the arnment is kindof the trigger for it in some respects.
But things like Bigfoot, you know, if Bigfoot psychic, then I
guess it would fit in. Orif you upos or a psychic rejection.
They've fit in, but they don'totherwise fall into our field at all.
Do you believe that parapsychology has thepotential to revolutionize the understanding of the universe.

(47:20):
I think it maybe not revolutionize somuch because so many people do kind
of accept or believe, even ifthey don't want it, like to admit
in publicly. It certainly would revolutionizeour understanding of who we are as human
beings, our potential, and itwould add to or tweak you know,
it wouldn't cancel out the laws ofphysics, because we don't think that there's

(47:43):
anything non physical about what we cando is when you're psychic. It just
would add to how information is transferred. Might even give some ideas of some
really interesting technology that could come upmimicking psychic perceptions respects. You know,
that was going to be part ofmy next question. Has the rise of

(48:04):
technology had an impact on parapsychological researchin recent years? Well, it certainly
helped us in the lab because youcould automate all the selection, the random
selection of targets, you know,the whole process. You can remove human
beings so that there's no question whetheras to whether or not somebody's cheating in
that way, So that certainly helpedthe data analysis. All the technologies help

(48:24):
with that. I think the nextstep would would be if we can apply
AI to all of our data tolook for the patterns more deeply. In
the investigation world, you know,environmental sensors are what we started using,
and those have gotten smaller and cheaper. But unfortunately we also see in the
ghost hunting world that there's a lotof people who are claiming all sorts of

(48:45):
things about these devices and what theycan do, and selling them for a
big price to a lot of Iwon't call them gullible, but expectant ghost
hunters. You know, there areno devices that can detect any psychic,
that can detect consciousness directly, thereare no devices that can detect ghosts.
But what about these these what arethey called spirit boxes? Yeah, those

(49:10):
are supposedly random scanners that stop andgive you a message where they're The idea
is that spirits are interacting with themto create the message. First of all,
if you actually pay attention to anyof those sessions, for the most
part, the person who is usingit is interpreting and trying to make fit

(49:31):
what they hear directly to the questionif they asked to even ask a question.
The bigger problem, though, foranything like the spirit boxes or EVP
or anything else, is that wehave laboratory evidence that shows that living people
can affect technology. We can affecttechnology in a negative way, sometimes in
a positive way under control conditions,and certainly we can affect random systems.

(49:54):
If a living person can do that, especially by expectations and intent, then
what's to say that all of thestuff that ghost owners are picking up is
not coming from them? True,A lot of people believe that EVPs are
proof, beyond the shadow of adoubt, that the spirits can communicate.

(50:15):
I have a problem with that because, well, being in this business,
I find it very hard to understandhow you ask a question. And let's
say you're using a digital recorder,You leave it blank for a couple of
minutes or seconds, whatever they wantto use as criteria, and miraculously a

(50:37):
voice is heard. What's your contact? You know only when the only when
the message is played back, soit's not heard at the time of transmission
or recording on the device. Itmakes no sense to me. Well,
it's not an First of all,it's not an acoustical sound, it's being

(50:57):
recorded. The very definition of liketronic voice phenomena is that the voice is
created electronically in the device, Sothat's by definition psychokinesis mind over matter.
The question then becomes is it theexpectation of the operator who might be doing
that, or is it a spiritthat might or might not be there,

(51:20):
because for the most part, Idon't hear from or find find that the
ghost hunters were at these places actuallyhave any indication other than that EVP that
there's even a ghost present, andthey're making that assumption from what they hear,
and of course most of those socalled voices are unintelligible or interpreted with
a bias as well. There havebeen some interesting recordings made with the microphone

(51:45):
disabled, which is pretty which isvery interesting, both with audio tape and
going back decades and also with adigital audio recorders, and that's when you
get into some a whole different level. Are there any specific environmental factors Lloyd
that can actually influence paranormal experiences?Yeah, we found that there was a

(52:07):
correlation between the Earth's magnetic field andon a local level and human beings in
general and our psychic performance. MichaelPersinger was a researcher at Laurentian University and
he was looking at geomagnetic fields andhow they influenced the migration patterns of animals
and birds, and then he startedlooking into other fields of science and found

(52:30):
that there were correlations to not onlylaboratory work, but also to people's psychic
experiences that were reported. If theywere reported with a location and a date
and a time, there were somereally interesting patterns that emerged there. So
it may very well be that theshifts because the earth magnetic field is not
completely steady anywhere you are, itshifts, and that seems to be affecting

(52:52):
our brands. In fact, SerenaRonney Dougal, a researcher over the UK,
has pointed at geomagnetic effects on thepineal gland, which regulates, among
other things, the production of serotoninmelotonin in the body, and that affects
our body clock and a lot ofother things. Are there any specific age

(53:13):
groups or demographics that appeared to bemore susceptible to paranormal experiences? Lloyd well
I will say that there was afterthe lockdowns here in the United States,
there were two real estate companies thatdid surveys because people were reporting that their
houses were haunted, and the surveyswere looking at what they thought was going

(53:35):
on that made them think their houseswere on. In fact, the numbers
of people they based on the surveythat they found the percentage was a huge
leap over any previous survey that hadever been done. And then they broke
it down by age and it lookedlike the gen Z, the younger folks
really were in the high percentage ofthinking their house was haunted. The Real

(53:59):
Tea Association actually in that survey,as they kind of assessed it, they
considered a couple of things, oneof which was exposure to more paranormal stuff
on TV pop culture, and that'sdefinitely younger folks. But more importantly,
all of it came down to,and we knew this in our field,
that you're trapped in your house fortwenty four hours a day for weeks on

(54:20):
end. You've never done that before, You didn't know what noises your house
actually makes, and there was alot of assumption those were paranormal activities.
We're coming down to the final coupleof minutes of the show. Lloyd,
first of all, thank you somuch for joining us. All was a
great pleasure talking to you. Andwhat advice would you give to someone who's
interested in pursuing a career in parapsychology. I'd say, have a source of

(54:49):
income other than the field. Yeah, Unfortunately, there's very very little funding
coming into the field. It's beenthat way for a number of years.
Very fortunate at the Rhine Center recentlyto have some large donations and some help
from a couple of other aspects,so we're doing finally fairly well. But
the research itself, there's not ahuge amount of money. There's almost no

(55:12):
money to support actually field investigations,field work, so it really is helpful
to have some other source of incometo support that work. You might be
doing as well. Where should you? But yeah, go ahead, But
you know, there are now educationalopportunities like the courses we offer at the
Rhine Center. They're online courses forpeople that get educated. There are well,
there are not any academic programs inthe United States. There are some

(55:36):
courses here and there. There area couple academic programs over in the UK,
so there are ways to finagle yourway into the field, even if
you are just a student learning.In fact, that's the best way.
You've got about a minute left beforewe have to say so long. So
what are your final thoughts for theex omination tonight? Just that what we're

(55:57):
talking about in our field has seriousimplications for who we are as human beings,
that we have more potential. We'reholding ourselves back by not studying these
experiences, and maybe there is anotherexplanation for these experiences, but even that
will tell us more about who weare as human beings. Lloyd, I
want to thank you ever so muchfor joining us all his great pleasure and

(56:19):
explanation. If you'd like to findout more about Lloyd, here's two websites
right now. His personal website isunder construction, I believe, but if
you'd like to find out more aboutLloyd in the work that he does,
Forever Family Foundation dot org and Ryandot Org. Lloyd to you and yours,
a very merry Christmas and a happyNew Year, sir. Thanks,

(56:43):
Happy holidays, Rob, take caremy friend, and another night of the
xone here on Classic twelve twenty hascome to an end. Lloyd hour back
has been our guest this hour,and if you'd like to contact Lloyd,
visit www dot Ryan dot org.That's our Hi n e Or and the
Forever Familyfoundation dot org. This isthe X Zone, a place where people

(57:07):
dare to believe and dare to beheard. It's a place where fact is
fiction and fiction is reality. Andwe come to you right here Monday through
Friday at eleven pm Eastern from yourhometown radio Classic twelve twenty and stream around
the world on Classic twelve twenty dotCA. So until tomorrow night, I
am Rob McConnell reminding each and everyone of you to always keep your eyes

(57:30):
to the sky and your heart tothe light. Good night, everyone,

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Rob McConnell Interviews - LOYD AUERBACH - Director of the Office of Paranormal Investigations

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Rob McConnell Interviews - LOYD AUERBACH - Director of the Office of Paranormal Investigations