Derek Webb

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:12):
We're going out's like a war zone. I hope everybody
comes home.

Speaker 2 (00:18):
You and Nevin know.

Speaker 1 (00:23):
Which neighbors gone out turn on you.

Speaker 2 (00:30):
Today, we've got a good friend Derek Webb with us. Derek,
this is not your first time on the podcast.

Speaker 3 (00:35):
It's not.

Speaker 2 (00:36):
It's gonna be like at least third, like three times.
I can think of three times that you've been on
this podcast now, but maybe maybe four. I have no
idea whose county is.

Speaker 3 (00:45):
I don't well, I'm not certainly. And this is one
of those this like whenever I do this with you,
it really truly is one of those rare things where
it's like when you pop up on the screen, I'm like,
oh my god, there's Mason. It's like you're like somebody
who I both really admire and love from Afar, but
also we've got to be friends, and so I've gotten
to love you close up. And I'm not trying that's

(01:06):
not euphemism for anything, but I just mean, like I
I it's not. It's so it's different like when I
get to see you and we get to have conversations,
it's like, man, I get to hang out with my
friend Mason, and.

Speaker 2 (01:17):
I love that you know I've thought about this before.
Maybe you think maybe somebody'd be friends. Bro, if we
live in the same town, we would hang out. I'm
literally about this. You're you're stealing the words out of
my mouth. Man, I'm literally about to say. If we
lived in the same town, you would be somebody I
would hit up every single weekend.

Speaker 3 (01:33):
It would hang out all time.

Speaker 2 (01:35):
Is there is Derek? Is Derek ready to go to
a dive bar this weekend or whatever? Like I you're
the kind of person I might be the single weekend
if we lived.

Speaker 3 (01:42):
And getting me out to a dive bar. And because
I mean, I've I've I've logged my hours in dive
bars in Nashville. But if you were lived in town
and you called me, I'd be like, where we go
on East Side, somewhere where we go and I would
totally meet you over there.

Speaker 2 (01:54):
I'm all about it. You know, I could have been
in Nashville last week for there was an event that
was like yeah and all you know a lot of
people that we know in love were there, and I'm
like I should have been there, and I could have
the job that I work for, Like we could have
gotten the table kind of messing and I just like, now,
I'm like, oh god, I didn't realize all my friends
were going to be there and it was into Nashville

(02:15):
and I could have like hung out with you and
all you know, Kevin max is in.

Speaker 3 (02:19):
Yeah. It's also tough though, because like when you when
there's a thing like that, you don't ever have time
to do anything you want to do, and you don't
ever have time to see anybody you want to see,
because a thing like that can be super consuming and.

Speaker 2 (02:33):
Everybody, Yeah, you're you're hanging out with everybody and before
you know it like another thing.

Speaker 3 (02:39):
And I'm trying not to take it personally. But I
didn't hear from any of those people. Nobody, nobody, nobody.

Speaker 2 (02:45):
Hit me up like don't don't take it personally, don't
take it. I don't or take it personally. I don't care,
Like however, you want to love you, you and your
therapist exactly. No.

Speaker 3 (02:53):
I love these people and they're good friends. And I
totally when I'm bro. When I'm I do a ton
of traveling and I don't keep I don't remember who's
in which towns always like you and I do because
I'll stay at your house. Some you know some of
the time. Yeah, but it's like a lot so I
strongly associate you with where you live. But like a
lot of my friends, I don't even know they're there
and so, and I love these people and I would

(03:14):
love to see them, and I'm in and out of
their town and maybe I post about it and they're like,
well he didn't call me. That's cool. I totally get it,
one hundred percent.

Speaker 2 (03:22):
I will say I'm the I'm the kind of friend
that you know, like for example, like when you release
like a tour announcement or whatever, and you got all
these dates. I'm specifically looking for the Twin City. Yeah,
if I see a Twin Cities date, I will literally
then like make sure, like okay, got to make sure
those like dates are pretty free, you know, and obviously,
like I can't guarantee that every time, but like for

(03:44):
the most part, I'm trying my best. And you have
all right, I know Derek's going to be around. I
put that in my calendar right away, like just to
make note Derek's gonna be around if something else happens,
Like I get it, whatever, But like I just want
to know who my friends are that are going to
be coming in town. I want to. And you're one
of those those people that anytime he's one of those
people all, you know, a lout of our friends, like

(04:04):
you're the kind of person that if you're ever in
the Twin Cities, I will make note of that and
then try to, as you know, as best as I
can try to navigate to in the right way.

Speaker 3 (04:15):
I can't always help what's out of our control. But yes,
all that was to say, oh my god, I'm so
happy to be back on the podcast. That's all I
really I could have just said that.

Speaker 2 (04:22):
But anyway, Well, but now we're four minutes in and
now I've got less content.

Speaker 3 (04:27):
But it's content. They made some content just now though.

Speaker 2 (04:30):
That's good, right, love it. Well, let's let's talk about
survival songs. Newest album, All Out Ready to Go. Spend
a couple of years now since Jesus Hypothesis. In fact,
I literally have Jesus hypothesis. The vinyl like I've got
one of those you know, like you got everybody's got
those record shells, and then you've got like this, the
little slim version that you see of the vinyl. I

(04:51):
also have these little vinyl stands and one of my
vinyl stands has so it is out in the open
for all the people that walk into the living room,
they all see Jesus Hypothesis.

Speaker 3 (05:04):
I'm just saying if they could even notice it in
that living room, because it is epic.

Speaker 2 (05:09):
It is a great living room there. It is one
of those things like people walk by and they like
to see, like what mine is, and they see they
see Jesus Anthesis plow proudly front and center.

Speaker 3 (05:20):
It's very sweet of you. You're so you're right.

Speaker 2 (05:23):
Yeah, well both, actually you're I think you might be
next to Flamey too. I just like I got when
when I when I saw you guys last, like what
was that a year and a half ago or so
when we got to got to hang out with you all,
and I was like, I gotta make sure to get vinyl,
and we got your vinyl and here we are.

Speaker 3 (05:37):
Yeah and yeah, and so like literally like what feels
like five minutes ago, a new record came out and.

Speaker 2 (05:44):
I know, I can't believe it. It was like it's like
what two again, like two years and here we are,
like a new album.

Speaker 3 (05:49):
I know, well, and it's like back in the day
when I was a younger man. Like in my early
solo days, I was I would put out a record
every twelve months almost. I mean that was like, I mean,
it was like it was like clockwork. Like the Beatles, hey,
I mean they were putting out a record like every
three months. But but yes, in order to get all
that out during the few years they were But but yeah,

(06:13):
it's it's it's not I don't I can't ever predict.
You know, I've had this conversation before, Like all I
ever do is look at the world and try to
describe it. And I will go years sometimes without anything
in particular to say about it and or know what
to say or whatever.

Speaker 2 (06:30):
And so what do you think that output? I've always wondered,
like when I think about like the Beatles or you know,
some of those bands from like the sixties and seventies that, yeah,
like you mentioned like literally putting out multiple albums yea
they did. Yeah, And you're talking about like, I mean
when you were a young guy, like you're putting out
an album every twelve months. Is there something about to me?

(06:52):
Like I think about this, like is it because I
hear this often right like you you you know, we
interview bands called interview bands and then they like put
out like an album every eighteen months max. Right, of course?
Is it something where it's just there are that many
ideas when you're eighteen, nineteen, twenty twenty one years old,
or is it something where you just have less inhibition

(07:15):
to like there's less of an editorial process that's happening
when you're that age versus when you're almost like one, right,
it is, right like it? Or is both of those
things happening? But I'm just curious, like for that output
at that young age, is it just the like you
actually have that many good ideas because they've been storing
up for all those many years, right, and you just
haven't been able to let it out. And now you're

(07:36):
finally like twenty one and you like got professional equipment
and you've got professional producers and stuff, and you're finally
able to let it out. Or is it something where uh, yeah,
you just like you don't have any inhibition because you're
that age and it's everything's brand new and you just
like don't give a yes. Is it a combination of
both of those things? I'm just curious, like what is
it about both for maybe for you and maybe just

(07:58):
from you, what you know from other arts around that time,
like when they're that page that we're just putting out
so much.

Speaker 3 (08:03):
At that time, right, I think it's got to be
a lot of both, and I think it's like, so
there are some just some basic realities to it, Like
I think very practically about this, and so for me,
the the the rhythm of album cycles tends to be
when have I exhausted a project in terms of my
ability to tour it and whenever already I've been to

(08:25):
these cities twice now already with the same record, and
so I need to have new music out, Like there
is a real reality to the album cycle. And I
think most most album cycles tend to are orbiting around
with touring and everything else, and so it all has
to kind of make sense. And so you need new
records to give people an excuse to come see you again,

(08:48):
because otherwise they're not going to come back out for
no reason or just to hear you play the songs
they know apparently like and so I think there's some
of that. I do think I part of or when
you first was talking about were talking about this, I
was thinking, like, when you're younger, you just have more
time on your hands, you have more recreational time, and
so you can just sit around and songs can come out.

(09:09):
But I so, of course I did just say that
because I'm telling you what I was thinking originally. But
I don't actually think that's necessarily true, because as I've
gotten older, and then when I start having kids, and
when life gets more complicated and you have more things
taking up your time, I have found that I've just
gotten way more efficient with a little bit of time.
When I was younger, I had this delusion that I

(09:31):
needed just hours and hours and days and days that
I could just waste waiting, just rummaging through you know,
the uh you know, the thrift store bins of ideas
in my mind to find the good stuff to write
songs about.

Speaker 2 (09:45):
It's a lot easier to do when you don't have
to drop off and pick up kids from.

Speaker 3 (09:49):
Like or like the one hour you get between naps
or whatever, you know, like so like, yeah, and I
used to think I needed all this, I needed to
waste a bunch of time to get the little nuggets
of something usable. And I later just learned that that's
just not true. Like that might be an ideal way
to do it like, sure, wouldn't anybody want to just
sit around? But I've had to get over the years

(10:13):
more efficient at it, and I have and I've managed
to say, well, I've only got these couple of hours
this week, and I really got to sit down and
get something done and I can. I used to think
it was more like, oh, it's magic and the lightning's
got to strike. I think that's like a delusion of youth.
I've learned later that like, you can get it done.
You just you can get it done. That's not to
say there isn't like magic circumstances that sure, that would

(10:35):
be great, but we don't all live in a magical world.
Only only twenty somethings live in a magical world. And
I don't live in a magical world anymore. So I
have to just get shit done.

Speaker 2 (10:44):
With that efficiency. You know, I've heard there's an artist
named Tyson Mattens Matts and Baker. I don't know if
you've heard of it. He's great. He's out of the
Pacific Northwest. He's good friends with John Foreman, and he
mentioned once a few years ago on the podcast it
because he knows John Fleeman. He said that John and
I don't know if this is true of John anymore,

(11:05):
like that very well could be. But at one point
John would commit to writing a song every single day,
writing a whole new song with new lyrics, new riff,
new or like whole thing, right, And obviously that means
that ninety percent of everything that he's ever written will
never hear the light of day exact outside of himself. Right.

(11:28):
But what it did do is it forced him to
how do I write lyrics better? How do I And
there's just something about like he I mean there's maybe
like different ways of you know, I think about this
from like just like a sports standpoint, Like you can
practice every single day, right, and if you practice every
single day because you don't have rest days or whatever,

(11:50):
like you're going to have to just like like do
what you can every single day. And then there's some
people that like they'll take their rest days or whatever,
and when they do practice, it's to be highly efficient,
it's going to get the most out of it, versus
somebody who's just gonna do it every single day, right,
And I kind of think like there's maybe different approaches there, right,
Like John was definitely in the approach of like I'm

(12:11):
just gonna do it every single day. It could be
total crap, it could not be And then there's some
people who are like, I'm only gonna do it when
I know it's gonna be, like it's going to be good, right,
And that's a whole that's a different approach, right. So yeah,
like it sounds like there's an efficiency and I don't
know where you land on that, but like there's an
efficiency there that you have to just figure out, like
what's going to be efficient? Right?

Speaker 3 (12:31):
And yeah, so you do, you learn yourself when you
do it for a lot of years, and John certainly
has I have for a lot of years. And you know,
I think John Foreman and I are probably the two
polar opposite ends of the spectrum because John is kind
of renowned for this partly because of the hair, right,
sure exactly, Yeah you don't have hair, you know, look

(12:53):
at you. You know what it's like to be renowned
for a head of hair.

Speaker 2 (12:57):
Maybe if you just served more you would have just
like kept it for maybe.

Speaker 3 (13:01):
Maybe or if I didn't you know, get a sunburn
if without walking briskly to the mailbox. But anyway, like
like John is like very well known for being hyper prolific.
I've just you know, I've heard like the mythology of
like Ryan Adams, you know, where he'll be in making

(13:21):
a record and he'll have like they're choosing from thirty songs,
and they'll go to lunch and he'll stay behind in
the studio and they'll come back forty five minutes later
he's written two new songs and now they're I mean,
like it, really, I've heard.

Speaker 2 (13:31):
Like these crazies that sounds like a John Foreman exactly.

Speaker 3 (13:34):
Where you can't even possibly even keep up with how
you forget You've written so many songs you don't even
remember ever writing some of them and not some of
them never even get But and I am the exact opposite.
I literally I am lucky to write ten songs every
two years in order to make a record. And John,

(13:54):
as you said, probably eighty percent of what he's written
will will never hear because there's just there's there's no
efficient way to capture and deliver all that. There's just
is no way to do it. I am the opposite.
I don't think I've written a song. I don't think
i've ever I could maybe count one hand in thirty
five years, I've done this job that I have finished
a song that has not been released. Wow, I am

(14:18):
like John will have treasure troves of rarities that will
come in. He's going to be like one of these
rap artists that you know, twenty years after his death,
they'll still be releasing new albums. Yeah, and like I
literally you've heard everything. Almost every song I've ever finished,
You've heard it. If you're look, if you're if you're listening,
you're you've heard. You've heard all of it. And so
I'm extremely different, Like I can barely manage to write

(14:42):
the ten I need for an album every couple of years.

Speaker 2 (14:45):
It's like, wow, when you when you like, when you're out,
you're you deliver.

Speaker 3 (14:53):
I mean I just when I'm doing it, I it,
it gets done, and then I literally don't do it
and till I'm doing it again. And that's like and
I and I don't. I used to. I used to
stress about it. I used to go like I'd get
a few months in and be like, I haven't written
literally anything down. I've not typed a word of anything

(15:14):
like lyrics or anything, no ideas, I haven't I haven't
played any new parts on guitars and then and I
used to stress about it. And but but observing my
rhythm of how I do this for many many years
and many many dozens of albums of cycles, I've just
learned that that's just how it is. And so I
just don't stress. I enjoy my life way more now
because I finish a record and I'm just like relieved.

(15:36):
I'm like, all right, well I got I got another
ten songs, fantastic, like I got one more record out,
and then it literally feels like that's it for like
I'm done forever, and and I am kind of done
forever with that. And I tend to be very thematic
and very topical, and so my records like are really consuming,
and so like i'll I make I only make concept records,

(15:57):
like I don't ever make collections of songs that are
just own little random pieces. I don't do that. I
never have. I always make collections. I'd rather say one
thing ten ways than ten things. That's just how I
do it. And that's a little old fashioned. But and
so when I get to the end of an album cycle,
I give it. I gave it everything everything I had,
and I have nothing left. I hold nothing back and

(16:18):
I have nothing else, and I'm just I just sit
on empty for like months and years sometimes and then
and then all at once, I'll just write an album
and then that and then I and then I got
more and I did it again. And actually, speaking of
fible songs, this album was different than every other one
I've ever written in that it happened faster. The process

(16:41):
was was insanely faster than I've ever experienced in thirty
five years I've done this year. Wow, I mean I
I it's it usually all happens kind of at once.
It's concentrated. I'll start writing and maybe over months I'll
kind of put it together and I'll focus and I'll
think about it. I get I kind of get a theme,
I get a idle, and I kind of start to
work it out with survival songs. I went into the

(17:05):
beginning of the year twenty twenty five through January, I've
been thinking and this is kind of the way its
felt to me. Is like I spent most of the
previous year twenty twenty four looking at the world. I
said before a job description I like for myself, for
creative people is to look at the world and describe it.
That you know, just tell us what you see. Look
at the world. And I was looking at the world

(17:27):
all of twenty twenty four, and really, you know, for
a while, and I think this is a lot of people.
And I had no idea what to say. I had
no idea how to describe it. I did not have language.
I didn't know where to start. The analogy I've been
kind of sitting with lately, as it's like when you're
driving down the highway and the Serpentine belt breaks and
every gauge turns on and like the car just goes

(17:49):
into total It's like kernel panic and you have to
just pull the thing over. You don't even know where
to start. Everything broke all at one time. It's like
looking around the world the last couple of years, it
feels like everything is on fire every In other words,
you have to be running, but you don't know where
to run towards, because everything is an emergency. And that's
how it's felt to me for a lot of reasons.

(18:12):
And as in my work, I want to be writing,
and I want to be contributing, and i want to
be helping, and I'm not unfamiliar with writing protest songs.
I've done it a lot in my career. I didn't
even know where to start. I didn't even know what
to protest. It's like that, there's been so much and
and so I went into I started the year that way.
I'd spent the whole previous year that way, really wanting

(18:33):
to work, and I couldn't. I just I couldn't. I
didn't know what to do. And what I realized is
that when you really look hard and you sit long enough,
you realize that that for you. For me personally, there
was one fire that was taller than all the other ones,
and it was in front of all the other ones,
and I couldn't see past it to all the other

(18:54):
ones even really, and it needed my attention first, and
it was the most urgent thing for me, The thing
that I was the most, was the most personal, the
thing I was the most that And so for me,
that was living in twenty twenty five as I was
looking at my queer friends, my family members, my loved ones,

(19:14):
and especially young people, queer youth, and how impossible and
stressed and squeezed the world is for queer adolescent people
right now, and increasingly so. Because you've always had the
church on your back. But now you've got the government
simultaneously telling you that you don't exist, but also we're
going to weaponize you. And it's like it's just the

(19:38):
most and that part of life is hard enough without
all those additional layers of complexity.

Speaker 2 (19:44):
They got to deal with crushes and pimple yes, I mean,
and all the things about like yeah, getting picked last
gym class, Like they got to deal with all that.

Speaker 3 (19:54):
Shit, figuring yourself out for the first time, like for
the first time, putting your idea, like figuring your idea idiot,
and figuring out what where you belong and kind of
who you are and anyway that once I realized that
for me, like in other words, does the world need
entire albums about the history of women's rights? Absolutely does

(20:14):
the does the does the world need an entire album
about what's happening in Palestine? Absolutely? Does the world need
an entire album about what's happening in immigrant communities, absolutely,
people of color, marginalized people. It all needs whole albums, Absolutely,
it does. For me, the tallest fire and the one
I needed to deal with first for me personally, the
one that was the most personal to me, where I

(20:35):
really felt like I had something to contribute, was writing
songs that I hoped could be sound encouraging, empowering, soundtrack
for queer kids, and so that, and so I started February.
By the top of February, I was thinking, I hope
to write a record this year. Second half of the year,

(20:55):
I'll record a record, maybe tour. First half year, I'll
do something else.

Speaker 2 (20:58):
I had.

Speaker 3 (20:58):
We had other plans for a too, and everything else.
And then as soon as that kind of crystallized for
me in terms of like where where I needed to
be focusing my potentially my work time and what I
knew to try to write about, the survival songs came
out of me. I started writing the first song and
by the end of three weeks it was recorded. That's

(21:19):
how quick it was. Wow, it's extremely fast. It's never
been so fast.

Speaker 2 (21:24):
So you really, you like truly started in twenty twenty five.

Speaker 3 (21:27):
Then yes, at the beginning of February, I started writing
the songs. By the end of February it was recorded.

Speaker 2 (21:33):
Wow, it was done and then out and then out
a few weeks ago, as quick as we could.

Speaker 3 (21:38):
It's quick, as quick as management would let me put
it out, and not completely undermine their ability to help
you promote it and to get a tour on the
books and all the things you have to think about.
Like I wanted to just recklessly come in and just
it was an emergency. It was an emergency, and and
and I couldn't do it quick enough. And my body
literally felt and it knew it, and it just delivered

(21:59):
it and out it came. And I literally the first
weekend that I had free that we didn't have the
kids and I didn't have shows, and it was my
first free weekend after I had finished the song, so
this would have been like end of February. I called
up some friends who own like who run like short

(22:19):
term rentals airbnbs in different parts of Nashville, and I
was like, Hey, is there any chance that y'all have
a house somewhere in town that's just not occupied for
the weekend that I could get into to do some work.
And they because I need to get focused, Like if
I try to do it around here where there's dog, cat, animals, children,
there's life, it's just it's busy. I need to get

(22:39):
somewhere and get focused. And they were like, yeah, we've
got a house on the east side nobody's in it
you can. And so I took my twelve track recorders.
I did not record this into a computer like I
took my twelve track recorder. I took a couple of
guitars and a tambourine and a khane and I went
to this house and I moved in there for two
and a half days, and I slept and ate and

(23:01):
just trying to and I recorded the whole album in
like three days and then mixed it. I've never done
that either, never mixed one of my records before. I've
don't never trusted myself to do it. But I was like,
I'm in a hurry, and so I got to get
this done, and so I don't have time to wait
for someone's schedule to open up. I mixed it and
then I actually had uh Tim walshg w Walsh, who
was a founding member, paid with the Lion and a

(23:23):
pal master it and then it came out a couple
of weeks ago, quick as I could.

Speaker 2 (23:28):
Wow it so well, Okay, there's multi multiple things I
want to go with this. But first thing is you
mentioned just a second ago you you literally you like
took all your stuff to like an airbnbl R and
started recording. Just imagine twenty years ago trying to do

(23:49):
that with a professional sounding album, right, Well, you could,
like you just you couldn't. You couldn't have done that.
And like now we are in a place where you
can literally just like take like some like equipment that
probably can fit in a suitcase, and you can make
something sound amazing in some random ass person's house, right,
Like that's that's an amazing thing that we are. Like

(24:12):
there at no point in like human history when it
comes to human history making and recording music, have we
ever been in that point and we are now at
a point where you can actually do that. That's also
like just that like part of it is amazing.

Speaker 3 (24:26):
It is amazing. And like literally the thing I recorded
on it's sitting on the desk in front of me.
It fit in the front seat of my car. I mean,
I mean everything I made the record with fit into
my car, and my car is not very big, and
I and I fit I mean including mike stands and cables,
I mean everything was everything was in the car.

Speaker 2 (24:43):
Like imagine like when you were first like recording with
Cabman's right, like this big nice studio, right, like, and
there's no way you could have ever thought like somebody's
house can just do this.

Speaker 3 (24:54):
No, it wasn't.

Speaker 2 (24:55):
But you're just like, we're now technologically just in a
place where we can do that.

Speaker 3 (24:59):
That's amazing, is amazing. And here's what's great about it
is with this record, because I knew that I was
feeling this incredible urgency, I didn't. I knew I did.
I couldn't get precious with it, and I couldn't take
too long. I didn't want to. And so you and
when you're making records the way that people typically do
and the way I typically have over the years, when
you're doing it in pro tools or in a computer
or whatever, and you can like add a lot of things.

(25:20):
You can layer things, and you can correct and fix
and tune and quantize things, and you can and you
can get obsessive about it. And I just knew I
needed it done quick, and so I didn't need to
and so I took Basically my thought was, and I've
always kind of thought this, but here in twenty twenty five,

(25:41):
we are We've arrived, as you said, at the moment
where the technology is now makes it possible that like
I was thinking, back to like how much fun I
had when I was like in junior high and high
school and I had like cassette four tracks and it
was It wasn't the most incredible sounding thing, but it
you learn how to do it. You learn kind of
how to you could you could, you know, externalize your

(26:05):
your feelings and get them out where somebody else can
hear them, and you can make it sound. You can
figure out I make it sound like you want, and
it was really fun. I loved experimenting. I always had
a four track or an eight track when I was
in high school, and I used to play with those.
I loved it. And incredibly, they don't pay me. They
didn't give me a discount on this or anything. But
Task Scam, which had been making these this this kind
of gear for as long as I've probably been alive.

(26:27):
They make a thing and they make some some gear
now and this thing is called a Model twelve and
it's twelve. It's a twelve track standalone recorder, that's what
it is. It literally records to an SD card like
this right here. This This is my entire my entire album.
It's on this literally this that my whole album is
on this and anyways, so and uh and that's and
so I got I picked one up for like four

(26:48):
or five hundred dollars because I was like, I think
I want to make the record on this. I'm just
gonna And I didn't even know how to use it yet.
And I just took it and a bunch of cables
and some guitars and just set it all up in
this house and recorded every in just a few days.
And yeah, it's crazy. It's crazy that it's possible. And
it was perfect for this record because it winds up

(27:09):
like kind of retaining an authenticity and a vulnerability. And
there's something about records that were made before a certain
point in history where the techno where we had the
technology to fix and tune and correct and quantitize. It
feels my favorite records that were made in this previous
kind of bygone era era. Now they feel like they're
being made as you're listening to them, like because because

(27:31):
there's imperfection and because the guy's not always right on
pitch or right on beat, you feel like it's kind
of it feels live. It feels like it's happening right
now as it's coming into your headphones. Someone somewhere performing this.
And so every time I listen to certain records, they
sound they're like they're alive to me, and I was
hoping to get some of that magic. And when I
go back and listen to these songs, it feels that way,

(27:52):
like it's really you know, like you can't even barely
punch in and out on this thing, Like you have
to get whole, full, full song takes of stuff when
you're recording. So like everything on this album, I played
every instrument on it. My wife sang a ton of
background vocals after the fact. I brought it home and
she did a ton of amazing vocal arrangement stuff. That's
the only thing on it. And but it has that

(28:14):
quality to me, I can hear that, basically is to say,
I can hear that all that imperfection, but but it does.
It has like there's something magic about hearing something that
isn't fixed. It's got all that humanity and vulnerability on it,
and I'm so I'm glad that that was forced onto
this record, you know too.

Speaker 2 (28:31):
Yeah, I love that. I love that so much. I mean,
that's it's what draws me a lot to music. Yeah,
whether it's something even more kind of like singer songwriter
acoustic stuff or even like honestly like heavy metal stuff
like it doesn't matter, and a lot of times you
get like that rawness. Yeah it's beautiful.

Speaker 3 (28:48):
I totally agree.

Speaker 2 (28:50):
Yeah, I'm with you. So, you know, as you're talking
about kind of you know, especially within especially within your
solo career, like every album essentially almost being like a
concept album. Does it feel like I'm just curious, like
just how how songs come about? Is it one of
those things because it's conceptual, Like you know that there's

(29:11):
like certain themes that you're really going to be focusing
on with each and every song. Do the lyrics come
first for you? Or is it something where like that
guitar riff starts coming to you and then you write
lyrics around that, Like how how does each and everyone?
And maybe it's both Like I'm just curious, like how,
especially knowing that this is something like conceptual, the lyrics

(29:32):
matter in this right, like that there's a theme that
you're trying to get across lyrically. Is it something where
just the lyrics are coming first and then you figure
out all the music instrumentation or is it something where
more or less the music, insiration, instrumentation has already been there,
and then now you're starting to write lyrics on it
just or again, maybe it's something where it's a little

(29:53):
bit both in but I'm just curious what does that
look like, especially for this newest album.

Speaker 3 (29:57):
Yeah, well, for me it has almost always my experience,
and everybody I know that does this kind of work,
it's different, and for me it has typically always come
together like I don't I don't stockpile either. I don't
stockpile guitar riffs and parts, and I don't really stockpile
lines and lyrics too much. I mean, not very much
of it, not anything meaningful, like maybe a few words

(30:20):
here or there. But what happens is once I get
in my head, I will kind of conceptualize what the
sound is or what I'm going for or something that's
been especially like inspiring or i'm or or maybe even
just like a creative approach to how I want to
make it, which there's certain tools I want to use,
and sometimes that's been programming, and it's been drum machines

(30:41):
and so there's different things. But once I have the
tools kind of set out or in my mind, I
have some idea what that sound is. Then the lyrics
kind of come with melodies and comes kind of in
my mind. They're showing up in the style of whatever
I have kind of imagined for it from from the
get go, and so and so and so for this thing,

(31:04):
And you know, it's interesting. So you and I were
talking just before we started recording. We were talking about
artists that we like. And one that came up that
I'm just thinking back now that you mentioned because it
seems really relevant to me right now is Justin Vernon Bonaver,
who I'm a huge fan of, but so good, insanely good.
Justin is just like on another level. But what's interesting

(31:26):
is most people found Bonaver when for Emma came out.
That was the big debut, big record, and apparently, and
I did not know that, Justin was apparently like the
godfather of some of the kind of lumineer's mump and
sutz kind of heyho kind of stump clap stuff that
came up in the in those years just after that.
A lot of that was inspired from the that for

(31:47):
em a record, and I didn't know that, and I
don't even really know a lot of those bands that well,
although I guess I'm associated a lot with kind of
singer songwriter music. I don't know those bands. But and
I did not ever know that record. I was not
really into for Emma. I didn't know it. I just
hadn't listened to it. I came in on the self
titled Bonavar record incredible. Twenty two million is a top five,

(32:07):
top three album for me at all time. I've really
twenty two a million is like one of those for me,
and and but and all the records and sable Fable
absolutely incredible. I mean, it's just like you know, some
of my favorites I've ever heard. It wasn't until like
maybe a year or a year ago, or so a
year and a half ago maybe that I finally found

(32:31):
I was ready for Emma, and that record was very
kind of famously. The mythology of it is, you know
that he went off to his he was kind of
dejected and felt like he was a failure in his
life and all these things were going wrong. He was
sick and went off to his dad's cabin and the
woods and the snow and kind of lived out there
and wrote this whole album and kind of emerged with
it finished and it was, and it just changed the

(32:53):
world a little bit. And I will tell you that
I listened to for Emma. I had never listened to
it really before about a year ago, and I probably
listened to it one at least one hundred times in
the last handful of months. I listened to it so
many times, and because I was trying to listen to
what he did, knowing he did it that way, and
that was a huge part of me wanting to just

(33:16):
go disappear into a house for a few days and
see if I could just come out with a record,
like you know, just kind of emerge with a thing finished. Now.
I did not go to the Airbnb and he was
like in a cabin in the woods, and I was
like in an airbnb in these Nashville's, so it was
exactly the same thing. There's like a literal record store
across the street and like eight really good restaurants with
him walking distance. So it was not I wasn't like

(33:36):
I was like eating venison chili that I had like
slaughtered the day before, but like I'm sure Justin was
for those months, but I had the songs, but there
was something there was the inspiration from that record definitely
came with me, and it was like I wanted to
feel real, I wanted to feel authentic. I wanted to
feel you know, like that and I and and that

(33:57):
was a huge inspiration for me, honestly. And it's like
a record from so many years ago now that everyone
else has already had their moment of inspiration with and
I just I just did a couple of months ago.

Speaker 2 (34:06):
So yeah, anyway, just imagine all the queer youth you
could have liberated if you just would have been in
Wisconsin and you.

Speaker 3 (34:11):
Imagine, I mean, oh my god, it's like, I could.

Speaker 2 (34:15):
You You would have come out with an album that
just would with a rock opera.

Speaker 3 (34:18):
I mean, it could have been been a multi.

Speaker 2 (34:20):
Trump would have just resigned and it would have been withering.

Speaker 3 (34:23):
Whatever I came out with would have been so devastating
that Trump would have just immediately, which.

Speaker 2 (34:27):
It would have been. But you know what, you just
you just settled for an airbnb and east.

Speaker 3 (34:31):
Now I got nine songs out of it. I got
my little my little album, and I'm just doing whatever
I can with it. I'm just trying to steward it
the best that I can. So I'm here talking to you.

Speaker 2 (34:41):
It's right and not ap MPR.

Speaker 3 (34:44):
Sure, as long as they're around for people to talk
to them, I guess you know it's true.

Speaker 2 (34:49):
That's right, that's right. I yeah, I love like I'm
curious for you. It's like thinking through your entire career, right,
Like you've you've been doing this for over thirty years now.
When you look back to like mid early nineties when
you first started this with Cadman's, Like, do you think

(35:10):
you could have ever imagined that you'd be writing an
album trying to like just help some queer youth make
it to another day? Like that? That's that's kind of
an amazing thing. Like if you look back, like that's
where I started, and here I am right now, and
not obviously it's not like where you're finishing, but like, yes,
here you are now, like thirty years later, and now
you're writing albums to just like make sure that like

(35:33):
another kid is going to make it another day. Yeah,
Like that's cod and maybe in like some way or
shape or form, like you were doing that unintentionally thirty
years ago, but like now you're explicitly like I just
want to make sure that that kid makes it another day.
In high school, yes, like, could you imagine, like thirty
years ago, like that was the music that you would
eventually be writing.

Speaker 3 (35:53):
I don't think I probably could have even imagined I
would still be making music or I don't know what
I would have been, you know, because when we started Cadence,
I was like I was like or I was nineteen
or twenty maybe when we started the band, you know,
as I was right out of high school and like
I'm fifty now, so it's like it was more than
half my life ago, and I don't think I had

(36:16):
any idea. I definitely Well, so here's what I can't
tell you is I have always from when I was,
from when I was a kid, and all the way through,
I've always really identified with kind of just like I
feel like I when I was in school, I was

(36:36):
that I was that kid who was kind of weird
and over in the corner, like the outside, the outsider.
That was definitely my I was about to say my crowd.
I didn't have a crowd. I mean like that we
would kind of iland to misfit toys, get gather a
little sometimes, but like I didn't fit in and nothing
that I am good at, Like I'm not good at much.
I'm just super good at just a very few things,

(36:58):
and I managed to make everything in my whole life
out of those few things. But I'm not good hardly
anything else.

Speaker 2 (37:03):
Which is the whole talent in which it kind of is. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (37:05):
But but the things that I'm good at, the few
things that I'm good at, were in no way being
seen or valued or measured in any way when I
was a kid, and so I didn't fit in, you know,
and I and I relate and all through my career,
even and especially in times when it appeared as though

(37:26):
I suddenly found myself into like that crowd, because like
when Cadman's first kind of started taking off, when we
were playing at all of our friends colleges, and it
must have seemed as though we knew what we were doing,
and and there someone must have looked at what we
were doing and thought, well, there's there's like there's some
some something cool crowd going on about that deal.

Speaker 2 (37:44):
And I never served anything about nineteen year olds. It's
that you know what they're doing precisely.

Speaker 3 (37:50):
But it's like I never felt that way though, like
I have all I still very much at my core
identify with feeling out of place and feeling like I
don't fit in, and feeling I've always felt that way. Now,
I can't imagine how it would feel, and I certainly
cannot imagine in twenty twenty five how it would feel

(38:11):
to be a kid who is already trying to figure
themselves out in their identity and all the pressures and
all the changes and everything you're going through, and on
top of that, to have all of the psychological and
emotional and political pressure and and and to live in

(38:31):
fear and for the stakes to be life and death. Like,
I cannot imagine what that could feel like, but I
do identify with that feeling, and I do, and I
think I have always, even and especially again when when
I when in the Caveman's days, like I would always
kind of scan around for like who is disengaged and

(38:55):
who is not with the group here and who and
I would always try to those people, and I would
always try to find my way to those people. And
I've always most deeply connected with and resonated with those folks.
And I'm sure that's part of a handful of reasons
why I have felt such a kinship too, and such

(39:16):
a resulting allyship with the queer community is because that
really is in my DNA and to feel out of
place and so anyways, I mean, so that said, I
don't think I could have guessed what the subject matter
might have been or who the who the people group
might be. But if you were to tell me that,

(39:38):
like I'm still trying to find the kids that are
alone and feel out of place and don't understand how
they belong and are being actively told they don't and
that they don't, that they do not exist and they
are invisible, it would not surprise me to hear that
that's who I'm going for.

Speaker 2 (39:54):
Yeah, it reminds me of like there was a movie
I watched when I was a kid. I remember what
year came out, maybe twosy and four, two and five,
two and six, but like twenty years ago. The movie
is called Radio. Did you ever see the movie Radio?
It's a Cuba what's his Cuba? Yeah? Yeah, yeah that

(40:14):
guy he So the movie is about this, uh, And
I don't like, I don't mean to like tell the
story to like make myself a hero, but to say that,
because the story isn't, but it is to say like
why I am maybe the way I'm now, like looking
back on my life watching this movie twenty years ago,
but I remember watching that movie and there's a scene,

(40:35):
so so the Cuba character is a guy named Radio
who has some I don't know if he has Down
syndrome or it's some sort of like intellectual disability, but
he really loves football and he like really wants to
be a part of the local high school football team.
And there's a scene where he's like trying to you know,
get more involved, and the coach is kind of like

(40:56):
you're kind of like ruined the vibe or whatever, but
like also like recognizing like okay, like you're just looking
to a place to belong or whatever. And at one
point the team kind of turns on him and bullies him,
and there was a there's a scene where him his
mom finds out like he's he's not at home and
he should be at home by this, and she like

(41:17):
goes and looks for him and eventually finds him or
the coach or you know, she like gets the coach involved,
and they find him in the like locker room or
close to the locker room, and he had been locked
up and they you know, eventually like the players had
basically bullied him where they just like bullied him to
like he just was so scared and he just like

(41:38):
was in this room. And I just remember watching that
as like a eleven or twelve year old however old
I was at the time when that movie came out,
and I remember watching that and I was like I
was like that, that's that's the person I want to
root for, Like that's that's the person like whatever. Like
I mean I really maybe felt it visually because I
was like a football player and I wanted to play

(42:00):
football in college and like that was my whole dream
in my life. Like I was like whatever I am
in the world, like I'm not going to be the
football player that would have been involved in that. Like
I was gonna be the football player to like help
this guy, yes, right, and like I and that like
that has like and I look back at my life
now and I realize, like, oh, like I was grown,

(42:21):
like I grew up in a world where I was
meant to maybe be the bully in the world, and
I've realized like I'm trying my best to like relinquish
all of it right to like be the person that
like helps that person that And it sounds like that
for you, right, Like you grew up in a world
where we were like meant to be sort of be
the bullies, and now you're realizing, like there's a whole

(42:41):
bunch of kids that are just like they're by their
locker and they're crying because like they just like don't
know if they belong And regardless of like what you
think about their own sexual orientation or whatever, like doesn't matter.
Like they're the person that just doesn't feel like they
belong in the world, and it does not matter what
you think about that specifically, it just matters that they

(43:03):
feel like they still have hope in the world. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (43:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (43:06):
And to just be that person for them to say,
you know what, you still belong in the world, Like
I believe in you, you matter. Yeah, Like that's that's
what they need to hear, right yeah.

Speaker 3 (43:18):
Yeah yeah yeah, and and and and for me, it's
like I have spent too many years now watching my friends,
some of my best friends and my loved ones, my family.
This is intimate to me at the business end of
so many different groups of bullies. And if it's not

(43:41):
the federal government, then it's local government, or it's the church,
or it's I mean it it's you know, it could
be even their parents, absolutely absolutely their their their family.

Speaker 2 (43:51):
Their parents could be their first bullies.

Speaker 3 (43:53):
Yes, that's right, of course, and often and often are
and so yeah, you know, it's like it's and it's
been something that has if you've been paying attention, there
definitely is been a progression. And it's something I have
that's been important to me for a long time, and
I've even written songs about for a while. But it

(44:13):
was like finally again, I mean, the emergency reached such
a pitch that for me, I needed to just devote
every and and and as I gave my energy to
that goal. Never has an album come faster. I mean
the original title of this record was Survival Songs, Volume One,
because I it was coming so fast and it was

(44:35):
so easy that I just thought, I mean, I'll probably
I don't know when I'll stop writing, maybe never write
stop writing songs about this and for the and for
for this particular specific purpose. Now, of course, what happens
is you you finish, and then you have to use
a different whole side of your creative brain to shift
gear and you have to go from you know, documenting

(44:56):
and creating to recreating and performing and and stewarding and promoting,
and so I have slowed down on that part of it.
But now I'm super anxious, you know, to get out.
Like we're talking on a Monday, Like by Thursday, I'll
be in Florida and I have shows solid to the
end of the year, and I'm and I'm gonna, you know,

(45:17):
get out and see how these songs feel on the
road and yeah, and I'm I can't wait. It's and
I've never it's never felt uh, my job has never
felt more missional than it does right now. And I
think you and I have even talked about that, this
kind of strange irony that at this point in my
life and career, I feel more resonant with the idea

(45:38):
of vocational ministry I ever have in my life. And
I went decades receiving thanks for my ministry, a ministry
that I was unintentionally doing or it wasn't. It was
not the point, It was not my intention of why
I was doing the work. I was not trying to
use the songs to further a particular way of thinking

(46:01):
and win people to my way of thinking. And it
wasn't for some other purpose like a like a trojan horse.
I mean, I was just doing it to try. I
was just trying to write good songs and perform them well.
And that was the work, and that had you know,
it wasn't there was nothing ministry about it. But but
here now, and increasingly over the last let's say ten years,

(46:21):
but never more so than right now, I am thinking
exclusively about people who are not me. This is the
first record of mine I've ever made that I am
not I mean, this sounds so crazy and like such
a strange, privileged statement, and it is. But like I
am not at the center of this record, like I'm
barely in this record. I'm a staunch ally, I'm a

(46:41):
family member and friend an ally to this community, but
I am not I'm a straight cisgender man. I'm i'm
I'm I'm a I'm a I'm a student of and
a follower into this fight. But I'm not a leader.
And this is not this is not inherently my community
or fight. But I am joining in it in as
far as I am able, and I am taking guidance

(47:04):
from and learning from my friends and mentors who are
in the community. And but it's strange because, like I've
even had people who are kind of like my patrons
and people who are kind of a little closer to
the work I'm doing, who knew what the record was,
knew it was coming, and kind of had some apprehension
about it because they were like feeling weird about the
idea that this is the first record of mine that
I didn't make for them, which is to say for me,

(47:28):
because they resonated with all with a lot of the
records in as far as we have probably have things
in common in our stories, and this is a record
I've made for for someone else, for others, And it's
like this is the way you finally, like this is
the real work of taking you know, a wrench to
the patriarchy. Is like finally, white straight maleness is even

(47:54):
decentered from my narrative. Like it eventually has to get
personal for everyone, and it's something you must do intentionally.
You have to like literally even decenter yourself from your
own story in order to see the people around you
who need who need you to speak up, and who
need you to bring the allowance of the privilege that

(48:16):
you've been gifted and bring that to bear for the
emergencies and the fires that are raging all around you.

Speaker 2 (48:24):
It's like a whole new writing for you to like
write in that narrative. Is it totally? It is?

Speaker 3 (48:29):
I mean it has been that way increasingly, but this
was a different exercise in it, and it really was
like and as part of it, I'll tell you that,
you know, like once immediately as I was started like
so at the beginning of February and those first week
or so, when I when I realized what I was
going to do, I had the title first, and that's
not unusual for me, but I knew what I wanted
to call it, and I was starting to write the songs.

(48:50):
I immediately texted a bunch of my friends, mostly artists,
not all artists, some just writers, and some other friends
who are great have fascinating brains, but to all queer
folks who are my friends and trans folks who are
who are friends in my community, and I told them
what I was trying to do. I was like, here's
here's what I'm doing, and here's where I need your help,

(49:11):
because part of allyship is showing up in the ways
that are needed. Not just I mean my enthusiasm. I
tend to have a lot more enthusiasm than preparation a
lot of times. And so I don't know what I'm doing.
I get that, Yeah, so what I'm doing is not
always helpful, and I don't want I want to be helpful.
I don't want to be like that ally that you
have to constantly educate and tell to shut up and
do this for us. And so I texted on my

(49:32):
I text a lot of my friends, and I said,
here's I'm doing, And could you take a second at
some point in the next couple of days and think
for me about what you would say to your adolescent, younger, teenage,
you know whatever, self in order to help them get
through what the world is like in twenty twenty five, Like,
what would you say to yourself that if you knew

(49:54):
you only had a second to grab yourself by the
shoulders and keep yourself alive right now as hard as
the world is. What do you think you would say?
What is that language that's needed and could be helpful
and meaningful, you know? And I got so much unbelievable
feedback to that, and so much of that language was
what was weaved into these lyrics, and it was the

(50:16):
great guidance for me from so many of my friends,
and some of them I went back to who i'd
beat with the folks I thought would do it for me,
and said, would you this was so beautiful? Would you
be willing to just grab your phone really quick and
hit record and just say that to yourself, like with
your voice, say it as simply as you can, and

(50:36):
send it to me. I don't even know what to
do with it, but it's so meaningful and it's been
so impactful just to read what you've written. If I
have to feel like that could be some element. And
I wound up finishing. I thought the record was kind
of done at a certain song, and then I added
one more that is just I thought, if I can
get forty one minutes with a kid to say some

(50:57):
things that I hope could be empowering language soundtrack and
helpful to keep them alive for another moment, to give
them some encouragement again and empowering words. I don't want
to end it with clever poetry. I don't want that
to be the last few moments we spend together. What
could be the most important thing I give them at
the very very end, And I thought, they just need

(51:18):
they just need affirmation, just insane, just rapid fire affirmation.
And so the last song on the record is actually
the voices of these friends of mine and a bunch
of my people you know, are on there, and there's
so many I won't even to try to name them
all because there's a lot of them, but these are
my dear friends. And it's like all this variety and

(51:40):
diversity of voices of people just giving affirming statements that
were the things that they wish that they had heard,
and this is what we're offering. And so the last
thing you'll hear is just an onslaught, you know, one
and a half straight minutes of just affirmation, and I
really hope it helps you know. That's that's why it's

(52:01):
been done.

Speaker 2 (52:01):
So anyway, along those lines, I mean you've been talking
about how I mean, obviously this album really is for
like the queer adolescent. Yeah, I'm sure you're very aware that,
like you know, like the album is not going to
be exclusively or like predominantly listened to by queer under

(52:24):
sixteen or whatever. Right, like right, like most of the
people that are still gonna be going to your shows
are not like a chaperone kind of demographic christ But nope,
Like right right, Like you're very aware of that. So
I'm curious like, as you're like writing those songs knowing that,
like this is for a queer adolescent, knowing that it
might not necessarily be listened to directly or that they're

(52:48):
not it's not found directly by them. I Like, I
could imagine a lot of your fans probably have queer
kids themselves and might like then give it to them.
Maybe maybe that's kind of the route, But I'm just
curious like for you, like knowing that as you're writing
obviously very intentionally these songs for queer adolescents, knowing that

(53:08):
they're probably not going to ever hear who, I am
like like, yeah, they're that like let's be honest, right, Oh,
So Like I'm curious like how, like what what is
the way you think through that? Like how do you yeah,
how do you process? So?

Speaker 3 (53:21):
So, I mean other than getting the songs written once
I had and and then sending them to friends and
getting good encouragement that that that the songs were resonating
and and and that they it felt right and and
that it could be helpful, and at that point, yeah,
it's like as though my I mean I'm such a
like a niche, a nation, a nation, a nation. I'm
just so I'm I'm. I mean, what I do is

(53:43):
so specific and so and it's i'm I'm for hardly anybody.
The music I make, it's for hardly anybody, and so
the first and so it's so it's hard enough for
me when I'm swinging the bat as hard as I can.
For the obvious people who might know who I am already,
that's already not the easiest thing in the world to
try to get the music out there. So of course

(54:03):
I knew this was going to be, Like I couldn't
have made things any harder on myself, because I don't
think that this is my obviously is not my audience.
I mean, these are people my kid's age, you know,
these are my kids and friends and so so for me, honestly,
the first thing I did and I started, I started
literally months ago, Like as soon as I started writing
the songs I started, I made a I got it.

(54:24):
I mean, I am nothing if not organized. I mean,
you can beat me on a on a lot of fronts,
but you cannot out research and out prepare like I am.
And my wife and I are both this way, we're
like raging enneagram fives then like you cannot out prepare
me like and so I will if it's if it's
preparedness that was called for, I will win on that.
And because I I am tireless about it. And and

(54:46):
I got a giant spreadsheet and I filled it with
every single organization that I follow, that I support, that
I've ever heard of, that is doing good, meaningful work
in the queer community, especially with queer youth and adolescents.
And I'm thinking everything from you know, p Flag to
Glad to Trevor Project to you know, beloved a Rise
to I mean just every everybody I could think of,

(55:07):
and all the peripheral ones and all the influencers and
all the thought leaders and all the And I made
this exhaustive spreadsheet list of all these organizations and people
uh uh for influencers and also just people I have.
I don't I don't know that. I just admire people
I had connections to who maybe have big audiences and
anybody could think of. And and basically, as soon as

(55:30):
there was anything, as soon as I had mixes of
the songs, I mean, as soon as I was done,
I immediately and I spent months just cold emailing and
and dming and messaging everybody I could to get on
as much radar as I could with this project, because

(55:50):
it is beyond me and it's not And I don't
even care if people walk away remembering who I am,
or listen to any other record I've ever made. That's
not what I'm after. I'm just trying to get these
particular songs into the ears of these particular people in
hopes that it helps. And so I did a t
and I started asking all my friends, does anybody know anybody?
And I did a shit ton of work trying to

(56:12):
do outreach and meet folks and try to earn and
try to have my friends vouch for me with certain
other people and organizations and made some incredible connections and
friends and folks who heard the music and looked and
looked into me and got back and said, you know,

(56:33):
we would love to feature this, and we would love
to spotlight you, and we would love to distribute this internally,
and we would love to help you when you come
to town, and we would love to And it's the
most work. I mean, I haven't really talked about this much,
but it's it's for sure the most work that I've
done preparing for an album release, probably since my first
solo since She Must Shall Go Free. And I remember

(56:55):
that record. I was like, no one's ever heard of me.
I've come out of this band, but I've never done
this before, and it's a challenging record. That was a
pretty challenging Every record of mine's been challenging for some reason.
But and I remember getting a list of like every
college like r UF and Wesley Foundation leader in the
country that I could get a phone number for anywhere

(57:17):
Cadman might have played because were be a college band.
And I had this giant like list of phone numbers
and names, and I called. I mean, we were in
the van driving around to these shows and I was
calling all day and like hi, and they never heard
of me, but they'd heard of the band maybe, And
I was calling them and just asking them to please,
like I'm gonna We're gonna send it to you, and
please play it for the students, the people you work with,

(57:40):
you know, and you know, and I would love for
you to just to help me spread the word. Not
since then have I done anything remotely close to this
kind of work trying in front of it and during
I'm still doing it, and even right now, like I mean,
that's not the way the reason you and I are talking.
But I'm doing a lot of interviews right now because

(58:00):
I put up a link on my website and I
was like, I will talk. I will record thirty minutes
with anybody who's willing to help me promote this record.
I don't care how small your blog is. I don't
care how small your podcast is. I don't care if
you have no listeners. You're just gonna launch it for
this reason. I don't care. If you're willing to talk
to me and give me a chance to talk about
the record, and you're willing to promote that in your
little circles, I will repost you and I will talk

(58:21):
to you. I've done. I did like eight interviews today
and I'm doing like twelve tomorrow. Like I literally, I
put blocks on my calendar and I put a link
up on the website, and I've probably got forty interviews
in the next two and a half weeks. And some
of them are with friends, and some of them are
with people who have decent little things they're doing, and

(58:43):
some are for people who don't have two people listening
to them, and I don't care. I'm going to talk
to every This is one of those projects that for me,
again the urgency and the importance and the stakes. I
don't want to look back and think I did not
give everything I had trying to steward and get these
songs out out And so that's what I'm busy doing
right now.

Speaker 2 (59:03):
I love Yeah, I love that. Yeah. It reminds me
of like, you know, if, for example, right if a
sixteen year old queer kid at school doesn't hear this
because of the music they're into, Like this s thing,
right Like, but there's a real possibility, right Like, You're
doing everything you can, and I think that's great, and

(59:24):
I think at the very least, at the very least,
Eric like knowing your audience. You definitely have a lot
of people in your audience who probably grew up listening
to Caithman's especially, have followed your career. They love you
and have since come out of the closet. Ye, And
what they might need most right now is like they

(59:44):
have a relationship to their sixteen year old self that
they have not been able to surrectify of course, or
have a reconciliation with ye, and they hear this album
and they're like, this is what I needed to hear
when I was sixteen.

Speaker 3 (59:55):
Yeah, I've heard some some of those people.

Speaker 2 (59:57):
Actually like that. That is to me like if if
nothing else happens, that will happen. I'm guaranteed if not
already has happened, and that will that That to me
is like almost probably got to be worth it, right, Yes,
the course like that your fans that have come out
of the closet over all these years and now are
like now able to renavigate their own relationship with their

(01:00:20):
own sixteen year old self.

Speaker 3 (01:00:21):
Yes, yes, I appreciate you saying so. And I have
received emails and dms and a handful of extremely meaningful
messages from it that are exactly that. That for for
a very small group of people in a very narrow
bottom area of a Plinko board where the ball has
fallen very you know, to a certain area.

Speaker 2 (01:00:42):
It's like the thousand dollars people, right, exactly, the thousand
dollar people.

Speaker 3 (01:00:45):
To me there that that they are the thousand dollar people.
I've gotten messages and and they have basically said something
like I grew up on your music or my parents
were big fans of your band, and I was maybe
made to listen, you know, to your maybe my household
only allowed Christian so called Christian music to play in
the house, and you know, and so it's been it's
part of my early narrative and my and and exactly

(01:01:08):
what you said. And since I have come out, I've transitioned.
I have a wife, I've got a husband, I've got
a family. I have my own children now, and there's
something for them about hearing the same voice that sang
those songs, those early songs that were connected to a
very different part of their lives. Hearing hearing, weirdly, I
mean weirdly, hearing my same voice say these things now

(01:01:33):
seems to have been very meaningful for for for some
folks too, and because for exactly that reason, and that
is obviously like that's well beyond anything I could imagine
or have intended. But it's been like the sweetest I
mean like that. It's it's like every one of those
emails is a fucking grammy. I mean, it's like it means.

Speaker 2 (01:01:53):
Everything it is it is and it's like, I mean,
it's a devil word right there.

Speaker 3 (01:01:59):
I should have said doubleware, of course, which are Grammys
or whatever, but but like it really is and it's
and and you're right it it I I will like,
I will take every bit of that. And of course
that's in my mind that there are going to be
those people because I've already I already know those people.
I already already know that those people exist because I've
met them all or not them all, but I've met

(01:02:20):
a lot of them on the road the last handful
of years, as I have been more and more outspoken,
and this particular subject matter has found its way more
into the center of what I'm what I'm tending to
write about, things like that, I'm having these conversations, So
I hope that that's happening. I hope that it is,
but I also hope somehow, And I'm also hearing from
friends who are like have either kids or nieces, nephews

(01:02:41):
or you know who, who also are are handing this,
who are kind of passing this stuff around hopefully and
uh and I, yeah, I hope they don't look me
up because I'm I'm super complicated. How do you explain
me to anybody, especially like somebody in my kid's age,
because I've got teenagers. But It's like I I hope
they can just even if in a vacuum, I hope

(01:03:02):
that they can find the songs and that it could help. Honestly,
that's it. I just hope it helps.

Speaker 2 (01:03:09):
That's what it's all about. I love it. Yeah, I
love it. Well, enough about survival songs? Are you ready
to talk about I think artists that on paper you
should love but you don't, and then artists on paper
that you shouldn't love that.

Speaker 3 (01:03:25):
I love this. I love this about our conversations you
always have and and apparently, as we talked about just
before we started, like I've been on just a few
times now where we've had to you had to dig
a little deeper into your into the toolbox of these
types of questions. But I love that you have them,
and so i'm I'm, and you already kind of shared
some of yours with me, and I don't know if
that's part of it. I don't know if you do
that as part of this segment, if.

Speaker 2 (01:03:46):
You, well, I'm, I mean, I maybe I've shared it before. Yeah.
So for example, an artist that and you can go
however way you want to go with us first, but
an artist that I should love but on paper, but
I don't love is a lot of dispute, right for
whatever reason. To me, they just sound like mean without

(01:04:07):
You cover band, And I don't mean that desparent like that.
I mean they're they're probably they're great, like they're on
their own. I just can't get into them because like
there's something about I think Me Without You is one
of the greatest bands ever And because of that, like
anything that kind of sounds like them but isn't them
just sounds like a sort of high school band versions.

Speaker 3 (01:04:28):
Why not just listen to them?

Speaker 2 (01:04:30):
Yeah, it's just like a lot of dispute. It's one
of those. So that's That's a band that on paper
I should love, but I don't. A band that I
do love, but on paper I shouldn't love is And
I mentioned this like maybe there's kind of like a
series of artists like this, but like to me, like
The National maybe is like the most like noteworthy of
like bands that are kind of in that like indie

(01:04:52):
song singer songwriter world that have gotten really popular like
The National literally probably a top ten favorite band of
all time for me, like True like Trouble Will Find
Me probably a top ten favorite album of all time. Like,
I just absolutely love The National. I will see them
anytime I can. I absolutely love them. And also there's

(01:05:14):
very few bands that they're associated with that I'm into,
is right, Like they're just not the scene that people
would associate me. And I also like generally don't like
most of the other bands that they're are kind of around,
but for whatever reason, the National is just like on
this next tier of just I absolutely love them, and
almost any other band that's kind of liked them just
not really into.

Speaker 3 (01:05:35):
Yes, So okay, so I'm gonna so here I go,
and I love it. This is perfect that you've said this,
because my on paper, I should love them, and I
just don't. I cannot get into them. Are you ready
for it?

Speaker 2 (01:05:51):
Let's hear it The National?

Speaker 3 (01:05:53):
Really when you said this earlier, I was really going
to share this, but because dude, I am so into
those I mean, you know, that is kind of my
scene that you talking about. It's like Soufion and Bonavert
and you know, and all that kind of stuff whatever
and and and and I it's like every I know,

(01:06:15):
every reason that I should love I love and I
also love like leftist center kind of experimental and quirky
singer you know, like and it's it's exactly what.

Speaker 2 (01:06:24):
But catchy enough where it's got you got like big singles,
like they can do it.

Speaker 3 (01:06:27):
All exactly and for some reason. And I've tried a
handful of times, and.

Speaker 2 (01:06:32):
I is it? Is it Matt's voice? Is it the baritone? Now?

Speaker 3 (01:06:35):
I like his voice. I think his voice is okay.
I don't know what, dude, I don't know what it is.
And because I and I've tried, I will go. I
will every year or two. I will go and I
will look up like what are the ones? What are
the most beloved records by the National? And I'm going
to try again because I know I'm missing it, And
so I will go and I will put it on

(01:06:56):
and I will listen to it and part with them
just like I I I'm now realizing I haven't been
paying attention for like three songs, and I just I'm
not into it. I'm not interested.

Speaker 2 (01:07:05):
So here here's what I will say about the National,
Like where they can get boring as a huge National fan,
say this is a huge National fan. Where they can
like I've hitchtiked to see the now like that's how
dedicated I've hitch tiked across the country. I believe to
see the National. That's how dedicated I am. Where they

(01:07:25):
get boring is their slow stuff, the National, and they
only maybe only especially their last like number of albums
will have songs like this, But they're faster songs, like
the songs that kind of like are fast enough to
be a single or whatever, those songs they just nailed
so so well, yeah, it's the songs where they're just

(01:07:48):
like just generally slower, they like they just kind of
all meld into one now, I think in an album entirely,
Like if you're listening straight through an album, it kind
of works, yep. But if you're just like if you're
in the mood of just like I just want to
listen to the singles. I want to listen to something
that's catchy. The National isn't able to make a song

(01:08:09):
that's slow that's catchy. They only are able to do
that with a free hear that song. Well, So the
faster songs to me are the ones that I absolutely
love from the National, Like, those are my most listen
to songs because those seem to be the singles yestantly.

Speaker 3 (01:08:24):
Well, and I'm a real completist and I'm like a
real I'm an album. I'm old, I'm older, So I
like albums like I like whole statements, and I make
records that are like that, and so like I'll I'll
hang in for the whole thing. But so let me
say this, though for many years I knew I should
like willco and I oh, and I didn't get will Coo.

(01:08:45):
And I remember, and I remember when all my friends
were getting into Yankee Hotel, Fox Trot and everybody's losing
their minds, and I remember being like, all right, I
want to be in on this. I want to be
in you know, I want to be the cool guy
or whatever. And so I went and got it and
I listened to it, and just this was like decades ago,
and I just did not get it at all. It
just sounded like it made no sense to me. And
I just I couldn't even listen all the way through it.

(01:09:07):
I didn't like it. I didn't get it. And then
years later, when I was ready finally for it, it
was so it was not nothing changed. It's not like
they went in and changed it. And then I listened
to the new version of it. I mean I was
different coming to it. And I acknowledge it. I take
full responsibility for that. And all of a sudden I
put in Yankey Hoto Fox Trot years later, and I

(01:09:28):
was like, there's no way this is the same record
like it sounds it. It was a revelation and it changed,
and that record actually changed like everything. It changed how
I listened to records, it changed how I make records,
it changed how I write, it changed everything. It was
a huge record for me, and I really really didn't
like it when I first heard it, and so I
know that I can be just wrong about this, and

(01:09:51):
actually the same thing was like true of Radiohead when
Radiohead first, like early, like experimental Radiohead, like after like
post the Bens stuff coming out. I didn't really get
it at that time. That's not where I was at,
and so it took me a while and then I
went back to it and just fell really hard down
the rabbit hole because I was like, it's such a
bulls eye. It's such a bulls eye for me, which

(01:10:13):
is why the National should be a bulls eye for me,
which is exactly what It's the perfect band for me
to mention.

Speaker 2 (01:10:18):
Because well, you literally it could be two years from
now we're gonna be doing the podcast again.

Speaker 3 (01:10:23):
I'm like, oh my god.

Speaker 2 (01:10:24):
Yeah, By the way, the National is not my favorite
band of all time.

Speaker 3 (01:10:27):
It's going to be on Jesus And it was The
National like I've converted like on the way it's I
couldn't see.

Speaker 2 (01:10:34):
I wouldn't be surprised. Just their their songwriting is so unique.
One of the things I love about them again is
like you get there, there's something about them, and I
think part of it is their percussion, part of it
is the twins guitar writing. Yes, it's unique enough, but
for whatever reason, they're also able to do earworms and
there's something about that, like like I love that about

(01:10:58):
you know you you probably know of mute math like
that where you you just like they sound so much
different than everybody. But also even though they're so unique
and it's just like nobody sounds like them, they also
are able to get a earworm in you.

Speaker 3 (01:11:11):
It's like pop sensibility.

Speaker 2 (01:11:13):
Yes, Super leftis so different. Yeah, and that that's exactly
the National for me. And then obviously get like Matt's
baritone voice and that's just like a week in that year.

Speaker 3 (01:11:22):
Dude, I'm a Bob Dylan fan, I have no room
to criticize anybody for having a weird voice, like I mean,
I but you can't like for most people, Bob Dylan
has not been listenable for decades. That is not me.
I'm I'm a Bob Dylan fan. I'm a I'm a
I'm a I'm a lou Reed fan. I'm a you know,
I mean, I like you know anyway, Okay, I'm gonna
transition us because because.

Speaker 2 (01:11:44):
Yeah, the inverse so a band that on paper you shouldn't.

Speaker 3 (01:11:49):
Like, but do like, right, Okay, And this is going
to be fascinating, I think to me about myself because
as I was thinking about this, one of the I
don't know if if I'm like on paper technically not
supposed to like this artist. I mean, I think so.
This is one of the biggest artists in the world
and has not always had the best reputation for being

(01:12:12):
Oh I just dropped Anees Stertrig for being like having
like all the creat you know, being like being much
more than just kind of really a great pop artist.
But Taylor Swift I was not a fan for a
long time, okay, because she got really big, really young,
and I don't think she was, and I'm here, I am, like,
you know, money morning quarterbacking it. But like, I don't

(01:12:34):
think she was ready for the scale that she hit
so early. And my pals are in the I've got
pals in the band Jars of Clay, and I think
they they blew up so big so early, and I
don't think they were ready and knew what to do
with it, and so they, I feel like, in their
very early career fumbled a little bit too, you know,
and they took a minute to figure out what to
do with like, and it was they were on a

(01:12:54):
very big stage having tried to figure it out. And
I stuck around for Taylor Swift and I was not
a fan for a long time, and I was like
an active not fan for like for years, and I
came around and now I mean not only not only her,
her business acumen and just how masterfully she navigates kind
of the the super fan segment of her audience that

(01:13:17):
just so loves and supports her, and she takes such
good care of them, and she's so smart about it.
And she's obviously a brilliant business person, but I think
she's just insanely, insanely talented. Now I mean, I've come
around her. And the reason I think that that's interesting
is because she works a ton with one of the
twins from the National Yeah, exactly, like some of those
records that he's very active on. I mean, you know,

(01:13:40):
he's the one, to my understanding, who put like the
rubber Ridge guitar in her hand YEP and the Focalo
album kind of fell out of that situation and Jackie.

Speaker 2 (01:13:46):
Yeah, they have the National has I think it's called
Cony Island. They have a song with her too. It's
probably the biggest National song on Spotify. But yeah, yeah,
I get that.

Speaker 3 (01:13:57):
I think I think she tends to be one of
those like you know, because I really really do love
very leftist center and very experimental stuff like and I
really do, and it kept me away from her a
little bit because I was kind of bristled a little
bit like the big pop thing. But I I mean,
I can get into that absolutely. But I have just

(01:14:18):
really become such a pretty a pretty steady like I'm
very I'm a very big fan of what she does
and how she does it and down to like where
I really had to go back and just like find
my way through every one of those records and super
love it now.

Speaker 2 (01:14:33):
Yeah, here's what I'll say about Taylor swith So I'm
I'm not a big fan of her. Yeah, however, what
in terms of big fan meaning like it's not like
I actively dislike her. But what I will say is,
even though she's like not somebody that I would actively
just like put on my Spotify or whatever and listen
to her stuff, right, like I probably will never do that.

(01:14:56):
Her ability to just like you just exist in the world.
You go to a you go to a boutique, you
go to a restaurant, you go anywhere publicly where there
is music being played overhead, you will hear Taylor Swift
and my ability now to like, oh that's a Taylor

(01:15:17):
Swift song that I've never and I probably like, unless
I'm in a public place, I will probably never hear
that song and tell them again. But like every time
I'm in a public place, you will hear one of
her like songs like she has like just and I
don't know, like maybe I'm trying to think of like
other examples of that in pop music history, Like I'm

(01:15:39):
sure Michael Jackson was, Like I wasn't alive when Michael
Jackson was at his heyday, but like I would imagine
Michael Jackson was in that level. But like just that
ability to like almost exist almost like a big brother
of music where you just are always going to exist
wherever anybody is publicly she has. She is totally nailed that, right,

(01:16:01):
And so there are Taylor Swift songs where I'm like,
I don't realize it's a Taylor Swift song until like
I like think about it, I'm like, oh my god,
that was Taylor Swift, right, like just because she just
exists almost like omnipresent, to be honest, right, and we
are in a that is a that's a level of talent.
Like as much as like I might be like I
don't really like that or whatever that is, there is
something about being that talented where you're able to get

(01:16:23):
an earworm where I could be sleeping in bed and
all of a sudden that song that it heard in
the fucking restaurant, like that now is now playing in
my head and they're like, who is that? Oh my god,
that's Taylor Swift. Oh my god. Like her ability to
get that kind of earworm and just be omnipresent right everywhere,
that's a talent.

Speaker 3 (01:16:40):
It is well, and it's we are in a post
rock star world. We don't have those anymore. I mean,
it's really rare. We have some that are holdovers from
the previous generation of them. But it's really hard because
there's no unified music space anymore. It's it's one thousand
niche markets of music now. There is not really one
big lane for it anymore. Know, even those artists are

(01:17:01):
not even those artists anymore. A tailor is one of
the and and and what's what's really remarkable is that
you can be that big probably I think inarguably the
biggest artist in the world. I think you could probably
say she's yeah easy. I think it's probably in the
world right now and has been for quite a while.
And she can still manage to produce things that are

(01:17:21):
intimate and very vulnerable and and and and quirky and
like like. I mean, the Folklore album is a great example,
But there are that's a whole album of it, but
there are and that was kind of her quarantine album.
I get it. But like the fact that she's here's
what it is, the fact that she is still taking risks.
Most of these artists who achieve this, they achieve it

(01:17:42):
the day they stop taking risks. She is an artist
who has has accomplished it by way of taking risks,
like she really dramatically reinvents herself and risks. I don't know,
you know, I mean how like people who loved her,
like you know, you know, bubblegum country stuff, how they

(01:18:03):
receive an album like folklore, or how they receive some
of her more like really dense almost kind of like electronic,
you know, like industry super poppy stead you know, like
really experimental pop. And you know, I don't know, but
she manages to do it, and she brings everybody somehow
along for that ride, and and I just think she

(01:18:24):
I think it's she's masterful. And so it's fascinating to
me that I'm I somehow cannot cannot manage to find
my way into the National, but I have, but I have.
They've gotten through to me by way of Taylor Smift,
which is like those and so there's my two like
the one I should and the one I shouldn't. And
that's how it works out.

Speaker 2 (01:18:44):
So if you if you're just like looking for a
better version of the National collab with Taylor Swift, it's
called The National.

Speaker 3 (01:18:51):
That is ah, that's that's the better, more concentrated, Like
if you like the watery oj that comes in the can.

Speaker 2 (01:18:58):
In the if you're like, if you're like, I really
liked that collab with Taylor Swift, Taylor Swift and and
the National, But you're like, but I could do without
Taylor Swift's vocals. Have I got a band from the
called the National? Right? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:19:11):
Yeah, there's a lot of people you want to you
want to you want to say this about Bone Aver because.

Speaker 2 (01:19:16):
Exactly, yeah. Yeah. If you're like, if you like whatever,
what was that song that he did with with or
that she did with justin Vernon, Like if you like
that vocal with that she did with justin Vernon, Like, hey,
do I have a band for you called Bone Bonever?

Speaker 3 (01:19:30):
Exactly? It's exactly right. So I'm into it.

Speaker 2 (01:19:33):
So and here's why I will say, like, you know,
she she didn't have to go and like end up
collaborating with all these sort of like I mean, obviously
I wouldn't call them indie artists at this point, like
they're they're all very popular, But she didn't have to
collaborate with these unbelievable singer songwriters with the National, with Boneiver,
with others. But she chose to because she like wanted

(01:19:55):
to challenge herself as a songwriter, to challenge herself as
a vocalist. Yes, and it made really good music. It
might not be her most famous songs, but it made
really good music. Yes, And at the very least, like
I think we have to respect her for that that
she didn't she she's not like the kind of gate
like she doesn't seem gatekeepy in her musicianship. Like she's
willing to collaborate with people that make sense with her music.

Speaker 3 (01:20:18):
Yes, and there are some artists who we are only
the artists who they are because she collaborated with them,
you know who she really brought up and took under
her wing and like really helped you know, popularize and
are amazing now. And yeah, you're right. I mean like
she surrounded herself with like younger, hungrier, more endie minded

(01:20:39):
writers and musicians. And I love the way that like
she basically kind of sneaks off with Jack Antonoff for
you know, a month, and they go somewhere where like
no opinion or external external voice can get in there
and be an influence, and they do exactly whatever they
want to do. And I love that, like I and

(01:20:59):
it says something to me that, you know, I've seen
interviews with Justin Burning and talking about that collaboration with
Tooe Swift and how stoked he was to do it
because of how much he respects her and how he
knows from the inside like what kind of artist she
is and what kind of person she kind of And.

Speaker 2 (01:21:14):
Yeah, I think that gave me some credibility to her.
That like the fact that like Aaron Dresner or Justin
would have and honestly, like, I mean, there's been artists
that I really respect, Like I have a friend named
Zach who plays in a band called May who loves
Taylor Swift right, and I like when I encounter some
of these artists that I really respect too, I actually like,

(01:21:36):
actually really like even if you like aren't into her music,
you should respect like her her songwriter and everything. And
I'm like, Okay, maybe I like need to rethink this
a little bit. That has caused me to rethink her
music a little bit, and I appreciate that, And yeah,
it's it's shitty that it causes like it requires me
to like listen to other people to to like get

(01:21:57):
to that point, but like nonethless, like I do get
into like I get it at least like I might not.
I'm might not be the person that like actively listens
to Taylor Swift, but I at least get it at
this point.

Speaker 3 (01:22:09):
Yeah, yes, and I and I and I'm that way
with like John Mayer and Ed Sheeran, Like these are
people who I have a tremendous amount of respect for,
and I know that they are remarkable talented, but I
don't know maybe any I don't know maybe any of
any of their either of their songs.

Speaker 2 (01:22:26):
I guarantee you would recognize them, but know that'd be
one of those things where you're just like I like
that you wouldn't actively go I've.

Speaker 3 (01:22:32):
Never never like you said with Taylor, I've never gone
and put on an Ed Sheeran record. I've never put
on a John record. But I get that the hell
out of both of them, and and and I think
both of them, at least at this point in their lives,
seem like really interesting and cool people like that they
they like maybe not at other parts in their careers,
but right now, as I see them and understand them
in the world, it's they're interesting to me and and

(01:22:54):
I and I'm I'm very curious and I'm very open
about but and I know that they're obviously huge, but
like I think they're legitimately extremely talented. I have no
problem with these folks. I don't actually listen to them.
It's not maybe my thing, but you know.

Speaker 2 (01:23:09):
I get that, Well, that's good to know. There's even
a couple more. And just outside of like someone like
the National, it's like John Mayer and Ed Sheeran, You're like.

Speaker 3 (01:23:19):
I probably should. I mean, they're like they're real musicians
and they're real, Like I should love these folks. And
when I was in high school, I mean when I
was like because I was like into like Dave Matthew's band.
I mean he was like a real nerd, like a
guitar nerd, and I was a real guitar nerd all
growing up. So and all my young guitar nerd friends
are I mean, among the other guitar players that they worship,
they definitely worship John Mayer because he's a stupid talent.

(01:23:41):
He's a free talent. He's incredible anyway.

Speaker 2 (01:23:44):
Dave Matthews just any jam band. I'll be honest, I
don't get it right. I do not get it, like
I'm not a jam band like Dave Matthews Man at
one point had the like they were like one of
the best selling bands of all time and maybe still are.

Speaker 3 (01:23:58):
I think they are one of the highest grossing two
bands still.

Speaker 2 (01:24:00):
Like yeah touring bands, like yeah, it blows my mind.
Like I think about that with like Nickelback too, Like
Nickelback's one of the like highest grossing like touring bands
ever and like I just like I don't get it right,
and like Nickelback, I'm like, and I grew up in
South Dakota Nickelback, I'm like I know their songs, right,
Like if you play Nickelback like a hit Nickelback song,

(01:24:21):
I know the songs. I guarantee you. You could play
the most popular Dave Matthews Band song and I guarantee you.
I still don't know it, and yet they are one
of the highest touring bands of all time, and it
I just I don't understand. I don't know. It blows
my mind, and like all the respect to them, but
it just doesn't make sense to write right right. And

(01:24:43):
I think there's something about like that jam band world
where Yeah, of course they would be the highest grossing
because like all those bands literally travel with the band.

Speaker 3 (01:24:50):
Well and it's experiential. The whole nature of that of
jam bands is the jam you.

Speaker 2 (01:24:56):
Get a new concert every single time.

Speaker 3 (01:24:57):
So when they play, it's happening. It's it's new revelation
every night. And it's not like that with these other
bands who just play the record. It's a different thing.

Speaker 2 (01:25:05):
Yeah, I just like and like, I'm on the hardcore
world enough where like that kind of probably happens, but
like the jam band world, that that's like a whole
other thing. I just like they got a whole economy.
Like the Grateful Dad. They literally like there's people that
made livings just being grateful dead fans fans exactly, like
just like bootlegging shit. Like I just like, I don't
get it. I'm far enough from that world. I don't

(01:25:28):
understand it. I know it exists, but that's about my.

Speaker 3 (01:25:32):
Amazing.

Speaker 2 (01:25:33):
It's unbelievable. I said, all right, well, I know we're
getting late here, but Derek, it's always lovely to see
your face. You'll you'll be you'll be in Minneapolis here.
It looks about like six six to seven weeks from
now and I will see you and we will hang out.
I'm excited to see you. Uh and uh. I love
these songs, unbelievable songs, so stripped down. I love it.

(01:25:54):
I'm a big fan. Uh and uh I can't wait
to see you play a few of them.

Speaker 3 (01:25:58):
Yeah, well, thank you that and I hope Yeah. If
if you, if you've heard this, and if you, if you,
if you're listening, what I would ask you to do
is just think about in your life, who might be
somebody who you might need to send this record to.
It Is there a is there somebody a queer friend
or family member or young person who you think could

(01:26:21):
just use some encouragement, and if boy, do me a
favor and just please fire this record off to them.

Speaker 2 (01:26:26):
It feels very punk in that way.

Speaker 3 (01:26:28):
I need all the help. Yes, right, yeah, it.

Speaker 2 (01:26:30):
Just feels like one of those things where it's like, hey, dude,
have you ever heard this album? Just like that kind
of saddn't like that's that's like the goal here.

Speaker 3 (01:26:37):
It is absolutely like just please, like just if everybody
share it, if everybody shared it with one person, but
it would make a huge difference, you know, And like
that's that's what it's going to take you know, and
uh so that would mean a lot. Yeah, so thank you,
thanks for having me fun again. Dude, it's particley, you know.
We just need to we need to. We need to
always schedule like meals and bathroom breaks as part of

(01:27:00):
our conversations because I think we probably could go for
at least.

Speaker 2 (01:27:02):
Like a better you out really really is a thing, but.

Speaker 3 (01:27:05):
We'll need to eat in between. Oh, it's just so
easy to see when you look at me.

Speaker 1 (01:27:14):
Oh, I can read fad energy.

Speaker 3 (01:27:19):
And your secret on your face.

Speaker 1 (01:27:26):
Well, it takes is a little bit, Nail Poli

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