December 16, 2024 • 31 mins
Host: Richard Foster-Fletcher, Executive Chair, MKAI.org
Guest: Professor Jonathan Michie, OBE, President of Kellogg College, University of Oxford
Guest Bio:
Jonathan Michie, OBE, is an esteemed academic and advocate for lifelong learning. As President of Kellogg College at the University of Oxford, he has championed adult education and its transformative role in addressing global challenges. His thought leadership spans education policy, AI integration, and democratic empowerment through learning.Episode
Title:
AI and Democratic Futures with Professor Jonathan Michie"Episode Overview:
In this episode, Richard Foster-Fletcher and Professor Jonathan Michie discuss how AI and lifelong learning intersect to tackle pressing global challenges. Drawing on historical and contemporary insights, they explore the evolving landscape of education, from the radical recommendations of the 1919 Adult Education Report to today’s AI-driven tools. They also delve into the critical role of education in fostering democracy, addressing inequality, and preparing societies for technological advances.
Key Topics of Discussion:
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-boundless-podcast--4077400/support.
Guest: Professor Jonathan Michie, OBE, President of Kellogg College, University of Oxford
Guest Bio:
Jonathan Michie, OBE, is an esteemed academic and advocate for lifelong learning. As President of Kellogg College at the University of Oxford, he has championed adult education and its transformative role in addressing global challenges. His thought leadership spans education policy, AI integration, and democratic empowerment through learning.Episode
Title:
AI and Democratic Futures with Professor Jonathan Michie"Episode Overview:
In this episode, Richard Foster-Fletcher and Professor Jonathan Michie discuss how AI and lifelong learning intersect to tackle pressing global challenges. Drawing on historical and contemporary insights, they explore the evolving landscape of education, from the radical recommendations of the 1919 Adult Education Report to today’s AI-driven tools. They also delve into the critical role of education in fostering democracy, addressing inequality, and preparing societies for technological advances.
Key Topics of Discussion:
- The transformative potential of lifelong learning for societal and economic renewal.
- Lessons from the 1919 Adult Education Report and its relevance today.
- How AI tools can support personalised, accessible, and democratic education.
- The integration of universities, colleges, and businesses to foster innovation.
- The balance between AI hype and its realistic applications in education.
- Lifelong learning must prioritise adaptability, critical thinking, and the ability to learn continuously in an AI-driven world.
- AI’s potential lies in democratising education but requires robust regulation to avoid misuse and inequities.
- Collaborative education models that engage learners, educators, and employers can create resilient societies capable of addressing global crises.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-boundless-podcast--4077400/support.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Boundless, the podcast exploring ideas that challenge conventional
thinking and inspire change. I'm your host, Richard Foster Fletcher.
In this episode, I'm joined by Professor Jonathan Mickey, Obe
President of Kellogg College at the University of Oxford and
a leading voice in education policy and lifelong learning. With
(00:21):
a career dedicated to understanding how education can address inequality,
empower communities, and prepare societies for the future. Professor Mickey
brings unparalleled insight to today's conversation. Together, we'll explore how
artificial intelligence is reshaping lifelong learning, from democratizing access to
(00:41):
education to preparing workers for yet to be invented technologies.
We'll also discuss how education can strengthen democracy, tackle global crises,
and create a more equitable and sustainable society. Now here's
my conversation with Professor Mickey. Jonathan, it is so nice
to be with you for many reasons, one of which
is that I think one of your great topics is
(01:02):
one of my most interesting topics, which is not just
lifelong learning, but it's actually the power of learning to
create democratic change across the world. So you had this
long standing advocacy for lifelong learning. You wrote a letter
recently to The Guardian. You highlighted how AI can be
a transformative tool in making education more accessible and personalized,
(01:24):
and how it's essential that the government has a comprehensive
strategy something again that we agree on no surprise for
life learning that will truly uplift society. You've noticed that
this doesn't just drive economic recovery, but empowers communities to
tackle challenges such as climate change, social inequality. And so
I guess to start today and a huge welcome again,
(01:44):
I get set the scene for us. What prompts you
to think that currently the status quo isn't good enough?
Speaker 2 (01:50):
The obvious answer is the whole plethora of crises though
we seem to be and people listen to any number
of crisis from the climate crisis to the threat of
renewed pandemics, each one possibly more deadly than the last
inequalities of income, wealth, power, geography across the world. You've
(02:11):
touched on whether the democracy itself is under threat, and
with all those crises, it's maybe not surprising that people
say there's a mental health crisis, particularly among the young,
But with all those other crises, maybe that's not surprising.
So I think we are certainly living in challenging times.
Sometimes said we're in for those reasons, We're in a
situation of unprecedented crises. But I always say if there
(02:34):
was a precedent, then certainly for this country of Britain,
it would probably be the First World War, which was
pretty pretty desperate times. But the difference is faced with
that collection of crises created by the First World War, economic,
social etc. The government actually established a Ministry for Reconstruction
(02:57):
to actually plan ahead on how you reconstruct the economy, society,
individual well being in face of all those crises. And
probably the most impactful thing that Ministry for Reconstruction in
Britain did during Fast World War was the publication just
after the Fast World War of their Adult Education Subcommittee's
(03:19):
Final Report on Adult Education, and that report argued that
a central part of the solution to rebuilding society, the economy, democracy,
et cetera, was education and education for all.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
Across society, lifelong education.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Because that argument that report rang so true when it
was coming up to the centenary of that publication, when
it was coming up to November two, thy nineteen, I
and others created an adult Education one hundred campaign to
use that centien rate to make the case for adult
(03:59):
edut a lifelong larning. And one thing that campaign did
six or seven years ago was create a Commission on
Adult Education, which created the Centenary Commission, which published their
report exactly one hundred years after November nineteen nineteen, published
it in November twenty nineteen and argued that actually, although
(04:23):
we've got to look forward, look forwards and think about
AI all the new issues, if you reread that nineteen
nineteen reports, it's strikingly relevant to today. And actually the
recommendations maybe surprisingly radical given the vario sort of orthodox
group of people who wrote, you can imagine it's on
that committee back in nineteen nineteen, it was actually quite
(04:47):
radical to say that education should be available for all.
But their arguments touched on the various things you said
in your introduction. They said, firstly, very interestingly, that there
were new technologies, new industries on the horizon as yet unknown,
and so you had to have education training of all
in society, for the whole workforce. But actually they were
(05:08):
more open minded, far sighted, imaginative than most governments are
today on that question about training for new technologies, because
unfortunately today and governments, not just in this country around
the world, tend to be very narrow and talk about
skills for jobs, by which they mean skills for today's
jobs and really today's skills. Whereas the point they made
(05:29):
even back in nineteen nineteen was that there were these
as yet unknown technologies on the horizon, so just training
today's works and today's skills was a best inadequate and
what you needed was capability, so people had the imagination
the ability to adopt new technologies which they've never come
(05:50):
across before and make the best of those. And is
an important point that the usefulness and productiveness of technologies
isn't just a given defined by this inventor. It depends
very much on how you and I and the people
who are using it actually how well we use it.
But there was that argument then which is even more
important today with AI robotics, that we need everyone to
(06:12):
be educated on these new technologies. They also said that
there was big conversations to be had by all in society,
and they were probably thinking of world wars, but now
we've got climate crisis and the various topics you just
touched on in your introduction, and they made the obvious
point that we need everyone in society to take part
of these discussions, so you need education for all. And
(06:35):
then they also finally touched exactly on the point you
raised about democracy, because of course this was at a
time when the electorate was big, extended, and so they
said it was very important that everyone, all citizens or
every society increasing proportion of whom we're getting the vote
were educated, not just so they would understand the specific
(06:56):
topics being voted on housing or health, whatever, but also
so they would have the imagination, the critical faculties to
weigh up evidence, think critically and actually distinguish between on
the one hand, genuine political arguments from on the other hand, demagoguery.
(07:16):
So I think all these crises are still with us,
and the centrality of adult educational lifelong learning to at
least contributing towards tackling these various problems issues crises is
as important now as ever.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Where is this working better in the world.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
So in Britain, I think we have got quite good
school education. Then the problem is coming eighteen, you've basically
got a choice of going to university or not.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
So that's pretty well lit. And so that's the end
of the matter.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
We should have choices all through our lives to do
this or that type of education, training, etc.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
Which would have then put much.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Less pressure on the eighteen year old to make that
one decision about whether it's go to university then or not,
because it shouldn't ready matter.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
They should be able to go in their twenty five
or thirty.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
I think Australia, Finland and Singapore, even America South Korea
have got generally better and it is large a question
about being more linked up between universities, colleges, other providers,
national government, local government employers, which at the moment it's
certainly England. Maybe Wales and Scotland are a bit different. But
(08:28):
England's not very good at and never has been, and
it's been long recognized We've not been very good at it.
We don't have universities in business tend not to talk
to each other very not as productively as they do
elsewhere Germany or Finland or Australia. And there have been
different attempts to overcome that, and some things have worked
to some extent, but that still is is at a conference,
(08:49):
actually academic conference, that University of Boxers to Palm for
Education research center they've got on called scope looking at
a skills and education where they had experts Britain academics, practitioners,
government officials, et cetera, where there was a general consensus
that the what is needed in England it's just better integration, linkages,
(09:11):
free flow of ideas and people and so between universities, colleges,
national government, local government, business and so on. So I think, yeah,
we don't yet do it as good as elsewhere, but
I think that wouldn't be that difficult to do.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
And when you talk about these things, the purpose being
what to be able to react or be proactive to
changes in the workplace, changes in technologies, or is it
the ability to move your career around and replan and
restructure it all of the above.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Yeah, yes, right now, all of the above. Said, this
conference was a characterized that the problem in Britain is
they think it's up to the company's employees. You sometimes
have government saying education training has got to be employer led.
So the idea is employer writes down a list of
what they want, give it to somebody clear who university are,
(10:02):
f E, college or whatever, and then complain they don't
get what they want. And by the time they do,
it's probably too late anyway, because skills have probably changed
that in that example, the trainings have got to be
a much more interactive systems should just be employer let
it should be employers and providers working together collaboratively, co
creating and involving the employees themselves, which it would be
quite normal in Finland or Germany or whatever. The employees
(10:24):
be part of the process where you're continually redesigning the
educational training, which it seemed to be appropriate for the
coming technologies.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
And how available and low cost does it need to
be or have we already solved that problem with the
likes of rudimes and YouTube and so on.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
It's a very good question because and it links back
to your point about democracy and so on, because the
problem is, you know, there are freely available materials are
on the web, and so that's fine for those who
can't afford anything else, they can access that, but the
danger is that may not be particularly useful. It may
not actually be designed with that those learners' best interests
(11:02):
in mind. That there may be all sorts of other
reasons motives behind that. The providers either they may be
pushing some particular line of their own, or they may
be hoping to get the learner or to then buy
into some sort of paid court which may not be
particularly in that learner's interests. So I think resource is
a big, big issue about affordability and if people have
(11:23):
to be able to afford the educational permission that's being offered.
And there you can see in Britain there is a
problem because it's the education has provided freely to you
up until the age of eighteen and then that stops
and any sort of lifelong learning then has to be
paid for. And in most countries and in the past
(11:44):
in Britain, it's been accepted that if your company wants
you to learn some new skills and so on, and
then the company pays for that.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
Albeit there have been complaints.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
That the British employers haven't put enough resource into that
haven't put enough as much as other countries might do.
Is a danger unless the British government is very careful,
they might actually make matters worse rather than better. Ironically,
under the umbrella the flag of lifelong learning, because the
(12:13):
current proposals are to introduce a lifelong learning entitlement which
will basically cover your first three year full time undergraduate degree,
but have still a year's work left over that you
can tap into later at any time, And so the
danger is that employer might in the future thing actually
we don't need to pay for our own workers training
(12:34):
because they can just use their lifelong Learning entitlement, even
though that's just a loan rather than a grant. So
I think that the government in England needs to be
very careful about that.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
There is a key difference between upskilling and reskilling, and
I think that's very evident now, isn't it as we
see how roles might be changing, particularly becoming more technical.
Can you share your feelings on that?
Speaker 2 (12:57):
I think you're right now, Actually I think again. It
also is the basic argument at the nineteen nineteen report,
which was reemphasized by the twenty nineteen report. As we've
touched on finances, I should say that that's available free
of charge if anyone wants to read it, download it
and actually on the on their website, there's lots of
other material there.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
It's all free of charge. That's www.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Dot Centenary Commission dot org.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
They downloaded and so on.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
So that basic argment what we need rather than just
specific skills is more generics capabilities. I think has always
been true, but it is getting increasingly true with the AI,
machine learning, robotics, the berest developments. If you just focus
on a specific skill and that's all, then you may
soon almost as soon as you've completed the course, it
(13:48):
will be past it sell by date.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
And of course you need both.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
You do need the specific skills, but you also what
you really need and what people generally need. What you
want people in your society to have, which will both
be employees and companies and productive members of society and
the electorates in your democracy, et cetera.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
What you really want everyone to have is the ability
to learn. They really want people to.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
Learn how to learn, so at the end of it,
they not only understand the latest AI, robotics whatever in
two three years time, they're actually really learning about the
new latest technologies and can still understand that, you know,
the concepts in so far as they relate to their
interests or their work arena.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
We've got to be careful calling this artificial intelligence is
what comes next might be so staggering, any better or
different that we might look back and think that was
silly to describe these sort of textual prompts that are
largely down to pre programming anyway these days as AI.
But that said that they are phenomenal tools, whatever we
call them. And it's easy to get caught up in
the hype with this, no doubt about it. And where
(14:50):
does this lie between it's just a digital tool, Jonathan
that we ought to get on and play around with
through to this is actually a kind of generational shift
now in the way that we might go about learning
and doing business.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
A bit of both.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
I comment to that, but since you raised it, yeah,
I might just comment on the term artificial intelligence because
actually my father that was his field. He worked at
Blesley Park with Alan Turing breaking up the coast inma
machine but great first robot, sorry, first first computer at
the Clossus machine and so on. And then after the
war actually in Britain though the computers were dismantled or
(15:26):
left to waste, and Britain actually had no computers for
a while, so he actually went into genetics with my mother.
And then it was the early nineteen sixties, once computers
had been developed in America and not to use for
research tools, that he created the department at the University
of Edinburgh on called the Department of Machine Learning and Perception.
(15:48):
He should be referred to as machine intelligence. It wasn't
no more artificial than ours or any others. It's a
machine intelligence. And he created one of the worldst fast
intelligent robots, the Nightee and sixties, the other one being
at Stanford in John McCarthy's lab, Professor John McCarthy. Unfortunately,
all this generation unfortunately died off over the last few
(16:08):
years and the Britain had a world leadership in machine learning,
art fish intelligence, robotics at this time until the British
government actually sabotaged it. They appointed some called light Hill
to have an inquiry, the Lighthill Inquiry, which concluded there
was no future in any of this, so they pulled
(16:28):
the funding. But they had a debate at the role
for all society at that time and this John mccarthury
came over from Stanford to support my father Donald Mickey
in arguing that there was a future for robotics and
machine learning, artfish intelligence, etc. And on this question about
why artificial intelligence, John McCarthy said he agreed with my
(16:49):
father it should be machine intelligence. And John McCarthy organized
a seminar conference at Stanford on machine intelligence, and this
is back in the early nineties sixties, and nobody turned up.
He rehabitized the same conference as artificial intelligence, and I
was absolutely packed. So that's why he jumped hip and
(17:11):
I talk about artificial intelligence, and the world followed him
for that reason. But yes, on how much of a
shift it is, I agree with what you just said.
It's got to be careful about the hype, of course,
and remember there has been a long journey, I say,
from Bletschie Park through to the nine sixties nineteen seventies.
But I think there are some pretty significant shifts happening.
(17:31):
Advances are depending on your point of view, but advances changes.
New town knowledge is happening and on the horizon which
I think will in the history be seen as has
quite quite a big change in machine learning, our AI, robotics.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
I hear a lot of narrative about this sort of
topic a lot, and I heard the CEO of LinkedIn
say I'll just create more jobs because the Internet did,
and then he just carried on with something else, which
I thought was alarmingly As for a comment, but when
I was in Turkey, the Minister for Science and Higher
(18:07):
Education still on the stage and he said, obviously we're
not going to be able to upskill people in the
workforce now around AI, but we can help their children
and it's just technology and accepted. That's the first time
I've heard somebody just go, that's not happening, is it?
And I thought everybody else at least is keeping up
the pretense for now, even if it's not true. Now
you flip that around, and actually in Turkey, like many countries,
(18:30):
there is a lot more support within families. So whilst
that it might be sensational to hear that with some
English years, actually it's pretty normal perhaps in a country
like that, that this thing's change and you support one
another and it doesn't matter quite so much. How far
would you agree with the minister saying in a country
like that, we are not going to reskill and upskill
(18:51):
our workers to be AI enabled.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
There's only a point where it linked to how much
I mean it's hyper not in that for most of us,
our jobs actually probably won't change that much. Some of
my colleagues use chat ept to help them draft initial reports,
and I do stress them they need to check it
first afterwards, etc. And some jobs will change a lot
but I think for most of us, most people are
in society, things won't change that drastically. They'll still be
(19:19):
driving delivery trucks and the teaching maybe using a bit
of AI, but not big changes. But on the other hand, yeah,
in twenty thirty years, I'm sure both the economy and
society will look quite different because those changes will have continued.
But in terms of those changes, it's very important that
those currently in work and doing that the jobs are
(19:39):
getting trained and retrained rather than just teaching things differently
at school, because by the time those school kids come
through anyway, everything will have changed again. I do think
the lifelong learning point is crucial. And also it's sometimes said, oh, yes,
we need this number of people in to underst and
(20:02):
ciphers and so on, but it's not necessarily extend. That's true,
industry needs a lot more of such and such a skill.
They don't necessarily want them all just to be twenty
year olds just graduating a straight from university would be
probably quite useful to have off their current employees. You've
got a lot of knowledge about the business, the sector,
the company, and so on to have those skills. So
(20:23):
the college that i'm president of at the University of Oxford.
We're actually a graduate only college, so all our students
are adults beyond undergraduate age. But also most of our
students are still working all around the country or around
the world maybe Australia, Finland or wherever, and studying for
(20:43):
masters and doctoral degrees on a part time basis mostly
structure like an executive MBA. They come to Oxford for
one week very intensive work and then back around the world.
And the biggest programs that we have are precisely in
computing software engineering, and now it has been our company
on software systems and security with people from GHW and
(21:07):
these places individual companies. These people who are learning the
latest techniques and cybersecurity, etc. Tend to be in their
late twenties or thirties or forties, rather than just being
being twenty year olds.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
This kind of upskilling question around AI and I talk
to people. It's not that people don't know about it
or theory or can't really understand it. It feels more
like lethargy to me, Jonathan, Oh, it's not really worth
it quicker Without it, it wouldn't really help me. And
that slightly worries to me because I think it is
(21:40):
a very powerful tool. Let's take chat GPT. I know
this conversation is not just about generals of AI, but
as an example, and it doesn't have a user guide
as such, doesn't have a manual. It's a blinking cursor
on a screen, which for me suggests that it just
treating this like a digital skill is inadequate really, and
instead the people that are succeeding using these tools that
don't have that lethargy, who was finding ways to integrate
(22:01):
it into their whole lives, really into their health and
their relationships and their DIY and everything as this sort
of buddy. They've got an approach to problem solving, an
approach to curiosity that perhaps are some things that need
to be uplifted alongside the traditional digital skills. That does
that resonate with you as an idea?
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Yes, To be fair, though, some people are going to
need these skills more than others, and even well more
broad in society. Some people may be involved in all
sorts of clubs and groups and started where they come
across these things, and others less so, and even families.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
I don't think.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
I think some people will both want and need more
more understanding training and education skills in this area than others.
Others may still be far better poets and painters and
everything else than the rest of us. Problem problem is
governments tend to be very focused on economics. Just want
to know whether someone will pay where they can afford
it and so put, which is all these discussions towards
(23:01):
the world of work.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
If you want to.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
Promote anything, whether it's AI or life or learning something,
you have to convince government that it will help boost
economic growth and productivity and therefore tax income, and it
will bring in lots of monitor the government.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
But there's lots of other.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Things in society which are separate from that, mental health
and our well being, our families, our societies, we live
in the social cohesion that the strength of our democracy.
The very famous quote from Robert Kennedy, JF. Kennedy's brother
about that about GMP, that the economic growth just measures
(23:37):
some things, but actually the most important things kindness and
art and civilization, etc. So aren't included in that. The
point that you are right and the past you put
it in the chat that actually engaging in lifelong and love.
You know, into your sixties, seventies, eighties, nineties is very
good for you intellectually and also your physical health. That
(23:59):
there is so that if your mental health is more
engage with physical health will be better and only that
will then actually save government money on healthcare mental and
physical health care. And we shouldn't have to sell the
idea of education being a good on the fact that
it'll save the money, but actually it will. Almost everything
we've discussed stop and now we've said that there are
(24:21):
definitely new technologists can be a force, of course for
good in all sorts of ways, but history shows us
that they can also be detrimental, depending how they're used
by whom, for what purpose and so on. So there's
certainly going to be a regulation, just like there is
for which side of the road you drive on, or
what drugs can be introduce it into the market, and
so on. It's only be very damaging products. And then
(24:45):
there's the biggest sort of existential risks which need to
be regulated at a global scale, including the extent to
which we allow the decision on using nuclear weapons weapons
in general, for the ultimately nuclear weapons handed over to
to AI because they can react faster if blissed missiles
are coming into your country and you think maybe the
(25:05):
only way of reacting fast enough is to lead that
to AI, which would clearly could be absolutely disastrous for
life on Earth. So yeah, certainly that does need regulation.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
Yeah, people ask me if I'm scared of AI, I'm
scared of people, Jonathan definitely, Yes, exactly. I really did
want to turn the conversation back to democracy a little
bit more. There is as a political leader in the world,
Jonathan who has claimed, and I'll read these three things out,
that wind turbines cause cancer, that the opposition party to
them wants to abort babies after birth. I'm not going
to say who this is, by the way, I'm not
(25:38):
going to sorry. And thirdly, they said that Kamala Harris
led in thirteen thousand convicted murders into a rally in Pennsylvania.
But again I'm not going to say who it is.
The obvious question here is just to cut through the nonsense, really,
is that these things are a highly unbelievable unless you
(25:58):
just don't know anything. But yet this person's extremely popular,
so and he's not alone in the world. Is he
that he's spreading these sort of strong man theories that
are out of date, that are incorrect. Even in the UK.
I think the last government just believed that still GDP
is the answer to every single problem. And they didn't
(26:19):
want AI regulation because they thought that woud getting the
way the GDP. They didn't want redeoble energy because they
thought would getting way GDP. They wanted new coal and
oil and gas and everything because the thought that would
the bold GDP. And it's wow, this feels like forty
year old conversation. The greatest opportunity for me within AAI
is that it can get a form of decentralized, democratic, free, personalized,
(26:39):
culturally relevant, without language barriers education to a lot more people.
And now I know massive problems were overcome in particularly
as we go into other parts of the world around
data infrastructure, devices, just keeping the power on and so on.
But this does feel like an opportunity. It feels a
bit like that democratic, decentralized force that can come in.
(27:03):
And how much is this is idealistic, Jonathan? How much
the thing is realistic for the power of free, decentralized
relevant education to a lot more people.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
Yes, I think it can work both ways. Basically, I
think you're absolutely right. It's huge, huge potential for good
and to be able to support a lot of people
globally with good educational programs and going back to being
good communities of learning even where people can't meet physically together.
I think is good for people's mental physical well being
(27:34):
to be able to meet together physically as well. But
clearly internetalize groups to meet together. But it's a question
of how it's done both in the set the level
that there are some people who would actually want whatever
is to spread disinformation and force theories, etc. So there
is that danger of harm that these things can spread
(27:56):
like wildfare fire, just rumors and falsehoods, But there's huge
potential for using it for beneficial learning, and actually that
the work around climate change over decades now and going
back to the Paris Core to try and stop the
temperature that horizon more than two degrees above what it
(28:17):
was before the Industrial Revolution pointed to the need for
education around these set of issues so that people would
be aware. So I think you're right that there's potential
for it to be used, but in a way it
goes back to the regulation point actually, because there's a
danger that we're being misused and the web is used
to the dark web very explicitly for aurses of illegal activities,
(28:39):
but even the Internet generally clearly can be used just
to spread brsuits and so on. So yeah, I think
it's huge potential for good, but it does need to
be regulated and resource needs to be put in if
there are going to be good, beneficial educational programs developed.
But there's a big potential there, but it's got to
be Yeah, you've got to be careful that it's used correctly,
(29:00):
which actually I think really underlines the basic point that
a lot of these issues actually are the same as
sort of ten years ago, twenty years ago, fifty years ago,
some one hundred years ago. Whenever you get new technologies,
they can be forces.
Speaker 3 (29:12):
For good or not.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
Nuclear can give you clean nuclear energy or nuclear weapons
which can be disastrous, etc.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Jonathan, what questions do you think we should ponder?
Speaker 2 (29:23):
What is that last one about creating educational resources which
are actually useful and appropriate to everybody across the world.
Because one of the British universes which has done international
education for a long time is so US and they
call themselves just so US now because it used to
be the School of Oriental and African Studies, But that
(29:44):
terminology is a bit like dated now. So this it's
called SOUS and they've done education across Africa for decades
and I know they've always tried to be sensitive to
exactly the points you've been making. But their current advice
chancellor leader is Adam Habib, South African, who who was
previously by so Answer and Bits University in South Africa,
and he's very keen to extend that work, but very
(30:06):
much on the basis that it mustn't be a British
university sporting this education globally, it should be the educational
program should all be co created with the people in
other countries and co delivered on equality.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
So it picks up to your point.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
I'm sure AI will be useful to him in doing that,
but it's it's a question of how you do and
make sure it's a genuine partnership.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Jonathan. This is just the start of the conversation, not
the end of it. But thank you so much for
bringing your insights and your thinking in and may I
just say much I appreciate the work that you're doing
and the efforts that you're going to challenge the status quo.
And I can't think of anything more important than the
topics that you raise and the impact that they will
have across the workforce and the culture and the economy
(30:53):
and on all the challenges that we face. So thank
you very much for what you do, and thank you
again for coming to spend some time with us today.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
No genuine pleasure. Thank you very much for the invitation
and good luck.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
Thank you for listening to this episode of Boundless. Today's
conversation with Professor Jonathan Mickey has offered valuable perspectives on
lifelong learning and the role of education in addressing some
of the most pressing challenges we face. His reflections remind
us of the importance of equipping individuals with the skills
and opportunities to thrive in a changing world. If you
(31:26):
found this discussion insightful, please share it with others who
might benefit from these ideas.
Welcome to Boundless, the podcast exploring ideas that challenge conventional
thinking and inspire change. I'm your host, Richard Foster Fletcher.
In this episode, I'm joined by Professor Jonathan Mickey, Obe
President of Kellogg College at the University of Oxford and
a leading voice in education policy and lifelong learning. With
(00:21):
a career dedicated to understanding how education can address inequality,
empower communities, and prepare societies for the future. Professor Mickey
brings unparalleled insight to today's conversation. Together, we'll explore how
artificial intelligence is reshaping lifelong learning, from democratizing access to
(00:41):
education to preparing workers for yet to be invented technologies.
We'll also discuss how education can strengthen democracy, tackle global crises,
and create a more equitable and sustainable society. Now here's
my conversation with Professor Mickey. Jonathan, it is so nice
to be with you for many reasons, one of which
is that I think one of your great topics is
(01:02):
one of my most interesting topics, which is not just
lifelong learning, but it's actually the power of learning to
create democratic change across the world. So you had this
long standing advocacy for lifelong learning. You wrote a letter
recently to The Guardian. You highlighted how AI can be
a transformative tool in making education more accessible and personalized,
(01:24):
and how it's essential that the government has a comprehensive
strategy something again that we agree on no surprise for
life learning that will truly uplift society. You've noticed that
this doesn't just drive economic recovery, but empowers communities to
tackle challenges such as climate change, social inequality. And so
I guess to start today and a huge welcome again,
(01:44):
I get set the scene for us. What prompts you
to think that currently the status quo isn't good enough?
Speaker 2 (01:50):
The obvious answer is the whole plethora of crises though
we seem to be and people listen to any number
of crisis from the climate crisis to the threat of
renewed pandemics, each one possibly more deadly than the last
inequalities of income, wealth, power, geography across the world. You've
(02:11):
touched on whether the democracy itself is under threat, and
with all those crises, it's maybe not surprising that people
say there's a mental health crisis, particularly among the young,
But with all those other crises, maybe that's not surprising.
So I think we are certainly living in challenging times.
Sometimes said we're in for those reasons, We're in a
situation of unprecedented crises. But I always say if there
(02:34):
was a precedent, then certainly for this country of Britain,
it would probably be the First World War, which was
pretty pretty desperate times. But the difference is faced with
that collection of crises created by the First World War, economic,
social etc. The government actually established a Ministry for Reconstruction
(02:57):
to actually plan ahead on how you reconstruct the economy, society,
individual well being in face of all those crises. And
probably the most impactful thing that Ministry for Reconstruction in
Britain did during Fast World War was the publication just
after the Fast World War of their Adult Education Subcommittee's
(03:19):
Final Report on Adult Education, and that report argued that
a central part of the solution to rebuilding society, the economy, democracy,
et cetera, was education and education for all.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
Across society, lifelong education.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Because that argument that report rang so true when it
was coming up to the centenary of that publication, when
it was coming up to November two, thy nineteen, I
and others created an adult Education one hundred campaign to
use that centien rate to make the case for adult
(03:59):
edut a lifelong larning. And one thing that campaign did
six or seven years ago was create a Commission on
Adult Education, which created the Centenary Commission, which published their
report exactly one hundred years after November nineteen nineteen, published
it in November twenty nineteen and argued that actually, although
(04:23):
we've got to look forward, look forwards and think about
AI all the new issues, if you reread that nineteen
nineteen reports, it's strikingly relevant to today. And actually the
recommendations maybe surprisingly radical given the vario sort of orthodox
group of people who wrote, you can imagine it's on
that committee back in nineteen nineteen, it was actually quite
(04:47):
radical to say that education should be available for all.
But their arguments touched on the various things you said
in your introduction. They said, firstly, very interestingly, that there
were new technologies, new industries on the horizon as yet unknown,
and so you had to have education training of all
in society, for the whole workforce. But actually they were
(05:08):
more open minded, far sighted, imaginative than most governments are
today on that question about training for new technologies, because
unfortunately today and governments, not just in this country around
the world, tend to be very narrow and talk about
skills for jobs, by which they mean skills for today's
jobs and really today's skills. Whereas the point they made
(05:29):
even back in nineteen nineteen was that there were these
as yet unknown technologies on the horizon, so just training
today's works and today's skills was a best inadequate and
what you needed was capability, so people had the imagination
the ability to adopt new technologies which they've never come
(05:50):
across before and make the best of those. And is
an important point that the usefulness and productiveness of technologies
isn't just a given defined by this inventor. It depends
very much on how you and I and the people
who are using it actually how well we use it.
But there was that argument then which is even more
important today with AI robotics, that we need everyone to
(06:12):
be educated on these new technologies. They also said that
there was big conversations to be had by all in society,
and they were probably thinking of world wars, but now
we've got climate crisis and the various topics you just
touched on in your introduction, and they made the obvious
point that we need everyone in society to take part
of these discussions, so you need education for all. And
(06:35):
then they also finally touched exactly on the point you
raised about democracy, because of course this was at a
time when the electorate was big, extended, and so they
said it was very important that everyone, all citizens or
every society increasing proportion of whom we're getting the vote
were educated, not just so they would understand the specific
(06:56):
topics being voted on housing or health, whatever, but also
so they would have the imagination, the critical faculties to
weigh up evidence, think critically and actually distinguish between on
the one hand, genuine political arguments from on the other hand, demagoguery.
(07:16):
So I think all these crises are still with us,
and the centrality of adult educational lifelong learning to at
least contributing towards tackling these various problems issues crises is
as important now as ever.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Where is this working better in the world.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
So in Britain, I think we have got quite good
school education. Then the problem is coming eighteen, you've basically
got a choice of going to university or not.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
So that's pretty well lit. And so that's the end
of the matter.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
We should have choices all through our lives to do
this or that type of education, training, etc.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
Which would have then put much.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Less pressure on the eighteen year old to make that
one decision about whether it's go to university then or not,
because it shouldn't ready matter.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
They should be able to go in their twenty five
or thirty.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
I think Australia, Finland and Singapore, even America South Korea
have got generally better and it is large a question
about being more linked up between universities, colleges, other providers,
national government, local government employers, which at the moment it's
certainly England. Maybe Wales and Scotland are a bit different. But
(08:28):
England's not very good at and never has been, and
it's been long recognized We've not been very good at it.
We don't have universities in business tend not to talk
to each other very not as productively as they do
elsewhere Germany or Finland or Australia. And there have been
different attempts to overcome that, and some things have worked
to some extent, but that still is is at a conference,
(08:49):
actually academic conference, that University of Boxers to Palm for
Education research center they've got on called scope looking at
a skills and education where they had experts Britain academics, practitioners,
government officials, et cetera, where there was a general consensus
that the what is needed in England it's just better integration, linkages,
(09:11):
free flow of ideas and people and so between universities, colleges,
national government, local government, business and so on. So I think, yeah,
we don't yet do it as good as elsewhere, but
I think that wouldn't be that difficult to do.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
And when you talk about these things, the purpose being
what to be able to react or be proactive to
changes in the workplace, changes in technologies, or is it
the ability to move your career around and replan and
restructure it all of the above.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Yeah, yes, right now, all of the above. Said, this
conference was a characterized that the problem in Britain is
they think it's up to the company's employees. You sometimes
have government saying education training has got to be employer led.
So the idea is employer writes down a list of
what they want, give it to somebody clear who university are,
(10:02):
f E, college or whatever, and then complain they don't
get what they want. And by the time they do,
it's probably too late anyway, because skills have probably changed
that in that example, the trainings have got to be
a much more interactive systems should just be employer let
it should be employers and providers working together collaboratively, co
creating and involving the employees themselves, which it would be
quite normal in Finland or Germany or whatever. The employees
(10:24):
be part of the process where you're continually redesigning the
educational training, which it seemed to be appropriate for the
coming technologies.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
And how available and low cost does it need to
be or have we already solved that problem with the
likes of rudimes and YouTube and so on.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
It's a very good question because and it links back
to your point about democracy and so on, because the
problem is, you know, there are freely available materials are
on the web, and so that's fine for those who
can't afford anything else, they can access that, but the
danger is that may not be particularly useful. It may
not actually be designed with that those learners' best interests
(11:02):
in mind. That there may be all sorts of other
reasons motives behind that. The providers either they may be
pushing some particular line of their own, or they may
be hoping to get the learner or to then buy
into some sort of paid court which may not be
particularly in that learner's interests. So I think resource is
a big, big issue about affordability and if people have
(11:23):
to be able to afford the educational permission that's being offered.
And there you can see in Britain there is a
problem because it's the education has provided freely to you
up until the age of eighteen and then that stops
and any sort of lifelong learning then has to be
paid for. And in most countries and in the past
(11:44):
in Britain, it's been accepted that if your company wants
you to learn some new skills and so on, and
then the company pays for that.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
Albeit there have been complaints.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
That the British employers haven't put enough resource into that
haven't put enough as much as other countries might do.
Is a danger unless the British government is very careful,
they might actually make matters worse rather than better. Ironically,
under the umbrella the flag of lifelong learning, because the
(12:13):
current proposals are to introduce a lifelong learning entitlement which
will basically cover your first three year full time undergraduate degree,
but have still a year's work left over that you
can tap into later at any time, And so the
danger is that employer might in the future thing actually
we don't need to pay for our own workers training
(12:34):
because they can just use their lifelong Learning entitlement, even
though that's just a loan rather than a grant. So
I think that the government in England needs to be
very careful about that.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
There is a key difference between upskilling and reskilling, and
I think that's very evident now, isn't it as we
see how roles might be changing, particularly becoming more technical.
Can you share your feelings on that?
Speaker 2 (12:57):
I think you're right now, Actually I think again. It
also is the basic argument at the nineteen nineteen report,
which was reemphasized by the twenty nineteen report. As we've
touched on finances, I should say that that's available free
of charge if anyone wants to read it, download it
and actually on the on their website, there's lots of
other material there.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
It's all free of charge. That's www.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Dot Centenary Commission dot org.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
They downloaded and so on.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
So that basic argment what we need rather than just
specific skills is more generics capabilities. I think has always
been true, but it is getting increasingly true with the AI,
machine learning, robotics, the berest developments. If you just focus
on a specific skill and that's all, then you may
soon almost as soon as you've completed the course, it
(13:48):
will be past it sell by date.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
And of course you need both.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
You do need the specific skills, but you also what
you really need and what people generally need. What you
want people in your society to have, which will both
be employees and companies and productive members of society and
the electorates in your democracy, et cetera.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
What you really want everyone to have is the ability
to learn. They really want people to.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
Learn how to learn, so at the end of it,
they not only understand the latest AI, robotics whatever in
two three years time, they're actually really learning about the
new latest technologies and can still understand that, you know,
the concepts in so far as they relate to their
interests or their work arena.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
We've got to be careful calling this artificial intelligence is
what comes next might be so staggering, any better or
different that we might look back and think that was
silly to describe these sort of textual prompts that are
largely down to pre programming anyway these days as AI.
But that said that they are phenomenal tools, whatever we
call them. And it's easy to get caught up in
the hype with this, no doubt about it. And where
(14:50):
does this lie between it's just a digital tool, Jonathan
that we ought to get on and play around with
through to this is actually a kind of generational shift
now in the way that we might go about learning
and doing business.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
A bit of both.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
I comment to that, but since you raised it, yeah,
I might just comment on the term artificial intelligence because
actually my father that was his field. He worked at
Blesley Park with Alan Turing breaking up the coast inma
machine but great first robot, sorry, first first computer at
the Clossus machine and so on. And then after the
war actually in Britain though the computers were dismantled or
(15:26):
left to waste, and Britain actually had no computers for
a while, so he actually went into genetics with my mother.
And then it was the early nineteen sixties, once computers
had been developed in America and not to use for
research tools, that he created the department at the University
of Edinburgh on called the Department of Machine Learning and Perception.
(15:48):
He should be referred to as machine intelligence. It wasn't
no more artificial than ours or any others. It's a
machine intelligence. And he created one of the worldst fast
intelligent robots, the Nightee and sixties, the other one being
at Stanford in John McCarthy's lab, Professor John McCarthy. Unfortunately,
all this generation unfortunately died off over the last few
(16:08):
years and the Britain had a world leadership in machine learning,
art fish intelligence, robotics at this time until the British
government actually sabotaged it. They appointed some called light Hill
to have an inquiry, the Lighthill Inquiry, which concluded there
was no future in any of this, so they pulled
(16:28):
the funding. But they had a debate at the role
for all society at that time and this John mccarthury
came over from Stanford to support my father Donald Mickey
in arguing that there was a future for robotics and
machine learning, artfish intelligence, etc. And on this question about
why artificial intelligence, John McCarthy said he agreed with my
(16:49):
father it should be machine intelligence. And John McCarthy organized
a seminar conference at Stanford on machine intelligence, and this
is back in the early nineties sixties, and nobody turned up.
He rehabitized the same conference as artificial intelligence, and I
was absolutely packed. So that's why he jumped hip and
(17:11):
I talk about artificial intelligence, and the world followed him
for that reason. But yes, on how much of a
shift it is, I agree with what you just said.
It's got to be careful about the hype, of course,
and remember there has been a long journey, I say,
from Bletschie Park through to the nine sixties nineteen seventies.
But I think there are some pretty significant shifts happening.
(17:31):
Advances are depending on your point of view, but advances changes.
New town knowledge is happening and on the horizon which
I think will in the history be seen as has
quite quite a big change in machine learning, our AI, robotics.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
I hear a lot of narrative about this sort of
topic a lot, and I heard the CEO of LinkedIn
say I'll just create more jobs because the Internet did,
and then he just carried on with something else, which
I thought was alarmingly As for a comment, but when
I was in Turkey, the Minister for Science and Higher
(18:07):
Education still on the stage and he said, obviously we're
not going to be able to upskill people in the
workforce now around AI, but we can help their children
and it's just technology and accepted. That's the first time
I've heard somebody just go, that's not happening, is it?
And I thought everybody else at least is keeping up
the pretense for now, even if it's not true. Now
you flip that around, and actually in Turkey, like many countries,
(18:30):
there is a lot more support within families. So whilst
that it might be sensational to hear that with some
English years, actually it's pretty normal perhaps in a country
like that, that this thing's change and you support one
another and it doesn't matter quite so much. How far
would you agree with the minister saying in a country
like that, we are not going to reskill and upskill
(18:51):
our workers to be AI enabled.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
There's only a point where it linked to how much
I mean it's hyper not in that for most of us,
our jobs actually probably won't change that much. Some of
my colleagues use chat ept to help them draft initial reports,
and I do stress them they need to check it
first afterwards, etc. And some jobs will change a lot
but I think for most of us, most people are
in society, things won't change that drastically. They'll still be
(19:19):
driving delivery trucks and the teaching maybe using a bit
of AI, but not big changes. But on the other hand, yeah,
in twenty thirty years, I'm sure both the economy and
society will look quite different because those changes will have continued.
But in terms of those changes, it's very important that
those currently in work and doing that the jobs are
(19:39):
getting trained and retrained rather than just teaching things differently
at school, because by the time those school kids come
through anyway, everything will have changed again. I do think
the lifelong learning point is crucial. And also it's sometimes said, oh, yes,
we need this number of people in to underst and
(20:02):
ciphers and so on, but it's not necessarily extend. That's true,
industry needs a lot more of such and such a skill.
They don't necessarily want them all just to be twenty
year olds just graduating a straight from university would be
probably quite useful to have off their current employees. You've
got a lot of knowledge about the business, the sector,
the company, and so on to have those skills. So
(20:23):
the college that i'm president of at the University of Oxford.
We're actually a graduate only college, so all our students
are adults beyond undergraduate age. But also most of our
students are still working all around the country or around
the world maybe Australia, Finland or wherever, and studying for
(20:43):
masters and doctoral degrees on a part time basis mostly
structure like an executive MBA. They come to Oxford for
one week very intensive work and then back around the world.
And the biggest programs that we have are precisely in
computing software engineering, and now it has been our company
on software systems and security with people from GHW and
(21:07):
these places individual companies. These people who are learning the
latest techniques and cybersecurity, etc. Tend to be in their
late twenties or thirties or forties, rather than just being
being twenty year olds.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
This kind of upskilling question around AI and I talk
to people. It's not that people don't know about it
or theory or can't really understand it. It feels more
like lethargy to me, Jonathan, Oh, it's not really worth
it quicker Without it, it wouldn't really help me. And
that slightly worries to me because I think it is
(21:40):
a very powerful tool. Let's take chat GPT. I know
this conversation is not just about generals of AI, but
as an example, and it doesn't have a user guide
as such, doesn't have a manual. It's a blinking cursor
on a screen, which for me suggests that it just
treating this like a digital skill is inadequate really, and
instead the people that are succeeding using these tools that
don't have that lethargy, who was finding ways to integrate
(22:01):
it into their whole lives, really into their health and
their relationships and their DIY and everything as this sort
of buddy. They've got an approach to problem solving, an
approach to curiosity that perhaps are some things that need
to be uplifted alongside the traditional digital skills. That does
that resonate with you as an idea?
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Yes, To be fair, though, some people are going to
need these skills more than others, and even well more
broad in society. Some people may be involved in all
sorts of clubs and groups and started where they come
across these things, and others less so, and even families.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
I don't think.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
I think some people will both want and need more
more understanding training and education skills in this area than others.
Others may still be far better poets and painters and
everything else than the rest of us. Problem problem is
governments tend to be very focused on economics. Just want
to know whether someone will pay where they can afford
it and so put, which is all these discussions towards
(23:01):
the world of work.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
If you want to.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
Promote anything, whether it's AI or life or learning something,
you have to convince government that it will help boost
economic growth and productivity and therefore tax income, and it
will bring in lots of monitor the government.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
But there's lots of other.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Things in society which are separate from that, mental health
and our well being, our families, our societies, we live
in the social cohesion that the strength of our democracy.
The very famous quote from Robert Kennedy, JF. Kennedy's brother
about that about GMP, that the economic growth just measures
(23:37):
some things, but actually the most important things kindness and
art and civilization, etc. So aren't included in that. The
point that you are right and the past you put
it in the chat that actually engaging in lifelong and love.
You know, into your sixties, seventies, eighties, nineties is very
good for you intellectually and also your physical health. That
(23:59):
there is so that if your mental health is more
engage with physical health will be better and only that
will then actually save government money on healthcare mental and
physical health care. And we shouldn't have to sell the
idea of education being a good on the fact that
it'll save the money, but actually it will. Almost everything
we've discussed stop and now we've said that there are
(24:21):
definitely new technologists can be a force, of course for
good in all sorts of ways, but history shows us
that they can also be detrimental, depending how they're used
by whom, for what purpose and so on. So there's
certainly going to be a regulation, just like there is
for which side of the road you drive on, or
what drugs can be introduce it into the market, and
so on. It's only be very damaging products. And then
(24:45):
there's the biggest sort of existential risks which need to
be regulated at a global scale, including the extent to
which we allow the decision on using nuclear weapons weapons
in general, for the ultimately nuclear weapons handed over to
to AI because they can react faster if blissed missiles
are coming into your country and you think maybe the
(25:05):
only way of reacting fast enough is to lead that
to AI, which would clearly could be absolutely disastrous for
life on Earth. So yeah, certainly that does need regulation.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
Yeah, people ask me if I'm scared of AI, I'm
scared of people, Jonathan definitely, Yes, exactly. I really did
want to turn the conversation back to democracy a little
bit more. There is as a political leader in the world,
Jonathan who has claimed, and I'll read these three things out,
that wind turbines cause cancer, that the opposition party to
them wants to abort babies after birth. I'm not going
to say who this is, by the way, I'm not
(25:38):
going to sorry. And thirdly, they said that Kamala Harris
led in thirteen thousand convicted murders into a rally in Pennsylvania.
But again I'm not going to say who it is.
The obvious question here is just to cut through the nonsense, really,
is that these things are a highly unbelievable unless you
(25:58):
just don't know anything. But yet this person's extremely popular,
so and he's not alone in the world. Is he
that he's spreading these sort of strong man theories that
are out of date, that are incorrect. Even in the UK.
I think the last government just believed that still GDP
is the answer to every single problem. And they didn't
(26:19):
want AI regulation because they thought that woud getting the
way the GDP. They didn't want redeoble energy because they
thought would getting way GDP. They wanted new coal and
oil and gas and everything because the thought that would
the bold GDP. And it's wow, this feels like forty
year old conversation. The greatest opportunity for me within AAI
is that it can get a form of decentralized, democratic, free, personalized,
(26:39):
culturally relevant, without language barriers education to a lot more people.
And now I know massive problems were overcome in particularly
as we go into other parts of the world around
data infrastructure, devices, just keeping the power on and so on.
But this does feel like an opportunity. It feels a
bit like that democratic, decentralized force that can come in.
(27:03):
And how much is this is idealistic, Jonathan? How much
the thing is realistic for the power of free, decentralized
relevant education to a lot more people.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
Yes, I think it can work both ways. Basically, I
think you're absolutely right. It's huge, huge potential for good
and to be able to support a lot of people
globally with good educational programs and going back to being
good communities of learning even where people can't meet physically together.
I think is good for people's mental physical well being
(27:34):
to be able to meet together physically as well. But
clearly internetalize groups to meet together. But it's a question
of how it's done both in the set the level
that there are some people who would actually want whatever
is to spread disinformation and force theories, etc. So there
is that danger of harm that these things can spread
(27:56):
like wildfare fire, just rumors and falsehoods, But there's huge
potential for using it for beneficial learning, and actually that
the work around climate change over decades now and going
back to the Paris Core to try and stop the
temperature that horizon more than two degrees above what it
(28:17):
was before the Industrial Revolution pointed to the need for
education around these set of issues so that people would
be aware. So I think you're right that there's potential
for it to be used, but in a way it
goes back to the regulation point actually, because there's a
danger that we're being misused and the web is used
to the dark web very explicitly for aurses of illegal activities,
(28:39):
but even the Internet generally clearly can be used just
to spread brsuits and so on. So yeah, I think
it's huge potential for good, but it does need to
be regulated and resource needs to be put in if
there are going to be good, beneficial educational programs developed.
But there's a big potential there, but it's got to
be Yeah, you've got to be careful that it's used correctly,
(29:00):
which actually I think really underlines the basic point that
a lot of these issues actually are the same as
sort of ten years ago, twenty years ago, fifty years ago,
some one hundred years ago. Whenever you get new technologies,
they can be forces.
Speaker 3 (29:12):
For good or not.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
Nuclear can give you clean nuclear energy or nuclear weapons
which can be disastrous, etc.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Jonathan, what questions do you think we should ponder?
Speaker 2 (29:23):
What is that last one about creating educational resources which
are actually useful and appropriate to everybody across the world.
Because one of the British universes which has done international
education for a long time is so US and they
call themselves just so US now because it used to
be the School of Oriental and African Studies, But that
(29:44):
terminology is a bit like dated now. So this it's
called SOUS and they've done education across Africa for decades
and I know they've always tried to be sensitive to
exactly the points you've been making. But their current advice
chancellor leader is Adam Habib, South African, who who was
previously by so Answer and Bits University in South Africa,
and he's very keen to extend that work, but very
(30:06):
much on the basis that it mustn't be a British
university sporting this education globally, it should be the educational
program should all be co created with the people in
other countries and co delivered on equality.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
So it picks up to your point.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
I'm sure AI will be useful to him in doing that,
but it's it's a question of how you do and
make sure it's a genuine partnership.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Jonathan. This is just the start of the conversation, not
the end of it. But thank you so much for
bringing your insights and your thinking in and may I
just say much I appreciate the work that you're doing
and the efforts that you're going to challenge the status quo.
And I can't think of anything more important than the
topics that you raise and the impact that they will
have across the workforce and the culture and the economy
(30:53):
and on all the challenges that we face. So thank
you very much for what you do, and thank you
again for coming to spend some time with us today.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
No genuine pleasure. Thank you very much for the invitation
and good luck.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
Thank you for listening to this episode of Boundless. Today's
conversation with Professor Jonathan Mickey has offered valuable perspectives on
lifelong learning and the role of education in addressing some
of the most pressing challenges we face. His reflections remind
us of the importance of equipping individuals with the skills
and opportunities to thrive in a changing world. If you
(31:26):
found this discussion insightful, please share it with others who
might benefit from these ideas.
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