Series: Artificial Intelligence, Leadership and the Future of Further EducationHosts:
Episode Overview: In "Shaping the Future: Shelagh Legrave on Innovating Further Education in the AI Era," we explore the transformative impact of AI on further education. Joined by Shelagh Legrave, the Further Education Commissioner, we delve into how AI technologies are reshaping educational practices across the UK. This episode covers the practical applications of AI in education, the challenges of AI adoption, and its role in administrative efficiency.
Guest Bio: Shelagh Legrave CBE DL: An experienced Chief Executive and board member with a background in further and higher education, as well as financial services. Currently serving as the Further Education Commissioner under the Department for Education, Shelagh is a qualified accountant passionate about using her expertise to support community initiatives, including a decade-long chairmanship of a homeless charity. She is also actively involved in the arts, education, and grant-giving charities, with a strong focus on sport and well-being.
Key Topics of Discussion:
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-boundless-podcast--4077400/support.
- Richard Foster-Fletcher, Executive Chair, MKAI.org
- Kurt Hintz, Managing Director, Fortis Education Consulting
- Shelagh Legrave CBE DL, Further Education Commissioner, UK Government
Episode Overview: In "Shaping the Future: Shelagh Legrave on Innovating Further Education in the AI Era," we explore the transformative impact of AI on further education. Joined by Shelagh Legrave, the Further Education Commissioner, we delve into how AI technologies are reshaping educational practices across the UK. This episode covers the practical applications of AI in education, the challenges of AI adoption, and its role in administrative efficiency.
Guest Bio: Shelagh Legrave CBE DL: An experienced Chief Executive and board member with a background in further and higher education, as well as financial services. Currently serving as the Further Education Commissioner under the Department for Education, Shelagh is a qualified accountant passionate about using her expertise to support community initiatives, including a decade-long chairmanship of a homeless charity. She is also actively involved in the arts, education, and grant-giving charities, with a strong focus on sport and well-being.
Key Topics of Discussion:
- AI’s Practical Applications in Education: Exploring innovative tools like virtual welding and AI’s impact on teaching practical skills.
- Overcoming Barriers to AI Adoption: Discussing the investment needs and common fears surrounding AI in education.
- AI’s Role in Administrative Efficiency: How AI can streamline tasks to save time for educational leaders.
- Leadership and Vision in AI Adoption: Shelagh’s approach to integrating AI within the educational sector, focusing on ethical considerations.
- Ethical Implications of AI and Student Well-being: Ensuring AI supports rather than replaces human judgment in education.
- The importance of balancing AI integration with human oversight to enhance educational outcomes.
- The need for strategic leadership in navigating the challenges and opportunities presented by AI in education.
- How AI can be a tool for equality, providing essential support and levelling the educational playing field.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-boundless-podcast--4077400/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Episode fourteen of our wonderful series,which focuses on further education, artificial intelligence,
and leadership, this holy trinity ofwhat we think is important for this
show. Kurti's great to see youagain and a huge welcome today to Sheila
la Grave. Perhaps you'll give usa minute of your introduction, including your
work in FEE and of course whatyou're doing now. Of course, so,
(00:22):
Sheila Legrave, I've been the FEcommissioner for two and a half years.
Prior to that, I've worked ina college where I was the principal
and chief executive for eleven years,and prior to that, I was an
accountant. And I've also worked inthe private sector and universities actually in the
(00:45):
finance. And on a scale ofzero to ten, Sheila zero being I
have absolutely no interest in this AIstuff in the sector through to ten,
which is I think this is oneof the most important thing that's ever happened.
Where do we find you at themoment, probably about eight. I
absolutely believe that AI is going tobe something which will transform what we do
(01:07):
in the next ten years, andit's something I'm really interested in. I
started looking when I was a principalat how we could use artificial intelligence to
support some of our systems within ourcollege. But chap GBT undoubtedly has peaked
my interest and made me realize howimportant this is going to be for the
(01:30):
sector going forward. I know youget around lots of colleges in the country,
lots of different operations, where haveyou seen some really great practice and
some of the things be great tohear what you've seen so far. I
think the sector as a whole isin its infancy in talking about AI,
but there are some colleges who arein the fourthfront. Basingstoke probably comes to
(01:53):
my mind as one that has taughta lot about what they have done and
has been kind enough to share thatwith the rest of the sector. So
what I've seen so far is someclever use of AI with some teaching some
practical skills such as virtual welding,such as the installation of airsorts, hoop
(02:15):
pumps and those sorts of areas.I've seen some interesting discussions about how AI
can save time with leaders, andI've linked into several principles who are working
in that space and again prepared toshare their expertise. And I've also heard
(02:39):
about the way AI is supporting teacherdevelopment. I've heard less but some about
the way AI is supporting colleges withits back office systems, but I think
that's probably the area that is leasttalked about, and the efficiencies and that
(03:00):
we can make, And of courseall colleges and sector we talk about funding
a lot, and the difficulties andthe strain that perhaps some of our corporate
services are under and effectively the skeletonstaffing perhaps that we've got in some organizations,
and this will help them and allowmore of that funding to go to
the front line and to make themmore efficient in the operation. So I'm
(03:20):
sure that's going to be something thatwe'll all watch really carefully and contribute to
in the future. I'm wondering aboutto any surprises you got when you started
to look around and some of thethings you've seen. Is there anything that
you've thought, gee, I didn'texpect to see that. One the most
surprising is that not every college isworking really hard in this space. Some
(03:40):
of that is lack of capacity,some of it's probably not an interest,
and some of it is that they'vegot challenges that they need to deal with
first. But that's probably surprised methe most, and also the lack of
consistency. So I couldn't say forevery college I've been to I've seen AI
used in this face, I haven't. I think we're seeing that on the
(04:03):
show too, and seeing big variationsin some of the development of different colleges
and focusing perhaps on different things dependingon the college and what they're looking at,
specifically in the interests of the individualsI think that are driving it in
those first adopters and things in theorganizations. In fact, we met Deborah
Gray not so long ago, andit was really interesting to hear the work
(04:25):
that she was doing with students,and I think they have an ow academy
which goes out to the community andhelps with employers looking at how they can
introduce and use AI tools within theirown businesses. I though it was a
really interesting use case that she bought. I was fascinated by depths response to
AI, and one of the areasthat I thought was particularly interesting is her
(04:46):
reflections around the needs of the employerson communication and therefore how AI can be
a supportive tool. But in theend we need to to provide to industry
people who have the right communication skills, the right team skills and all the
(05:08):
research says that, so you canhave gleveroroust type of artificial intelligence being used
to sports teens, but you've gotto have those soft skills, and she
was particularly strong on that anple sheyou talked about quite a different array of
adoption and interest and awareness and someonearound artificial intelligence in the leadership parts of
(05:29):
the sector. Just coming back tothat a bit, how do you think
will overcome some of those barriers thatyou mentioned. What I'm seeing is small
groups of self help, So thereare principles who are interested in they are
coming together and talking about it andsharing their practice and supporting their colleges to
learn from other institutions. What I'mnot seeing is anybody stepping forward, and
(05:54):
this will probably more be from associatedmembership bodies. I'm not seeing any leadership
coming forward that will move the collegesector forward per se and is going to
be a key part of leadership.Because the technology is moving so fast,
the world have to be at somepoint a way in which some sort of
(06:16):
formal courses are introduced. I thinkaround AI, it can't just be self
help. But I believe we're inthe early stages of this technology and at
the moment, it is collaboration froma few interested parties. And it's really
interesting that we're probably twelve months onfrom when Rich and I first started and
(06:39):
it was one of the first conversationswe had and that we didn't see the
leadership yet and this and part ofthe reason for having the show. The
leadership is one of the main conceptsbecause we recognize that perhaps get it's still
there and I think you sort ofeliminate that too, So we are still
very aware of it, I thinkas the sector and be very interesting to
(07:00):
see what's next there and what wedo next and how that plays out.
But certainly you see the gap wedo too. I'm sure there's plenty to
be done there. I just wantto go into assessment integrity because that's one
of the first things that came up, integrity of assessment. Oh my gosh,
how are we going to protect this? University's probably more so in that
space than colleges at the moment,but schools, colleges certainly colleges on the
(07:24):
academic integrity and looking at assessment writtenassessment effectively, which is done by assignment,
that sort of thing, which isprobably the most difficult thing to protect
any thoughts on that. Yes,And I think the danger in this conversation
is that you could end up withmuch more final exams because that is the
(07:46):
only way that it's believed you canmaintain the integrity of the assessment system.
And I think that would be apoor place to be because there are many
young people who are assessed more effectivelyby doing assignments. I think therefore the
(08:07):
assignments have got to reflect and stretchthe students in that higher order thinking.
And it's got to ensure that it'snot just a replication of facts, which
shouldn't be anyway, but it's howyou apply those facts there undoubtedly, and
I've seen lots of press assignments thathave been written by AI, so there's
(08:31):
also to have to be a systemof identifying that. And at the moment
it's possibly fairly straightforward because there aremany sources, but it's going to become
much more complicated as more and moresoftware is developed. And what is essential
is that young people don't get intheir qualifications just by replicating something out of
(08:56):
offisions intelligence. I don't have asolution to it, but I absolutely recognize
the challenge of it, and Ithink the important part of the teacher's role
is toing sure that they harness theundoubted advantages of AI, to enable students
(09:18):
to have those higher level conversations andto develop the pedagogy within their subject so
that it is enhanced through AI.But it's not actually replacing the thinking skills
of the individual students. I mean, I'm very keen on the social elements
(09:39):
of teaching and learning, and thepandemic for me, showed why people or
proved that people want to come together, and all our students who are learning
at home, the vast majority ofthem absolutely loaded that. So it's going
to be using AI in a clipway to enable those conversations to take place
(10:03):
and really to develop the thinking skillsin the brain that are going to be
crucial for those young people as they'regoing to employment. Exactly, and we've
talked about this on the show before, the sort of opportunity for cognitive offload
and perhaps calculators were the hugest,biggest cognitive offload of mathematics that was done
(10:24):
effectively and enabled and should have enabled. And you'd hope that this might be
the same that we can concentrate onexactly the skills you're talking about being much
more highly developed, rather than thefactual component, which perhaps is easily drawn
out and effectively offloaded to some ofthese tools, and perhaps not being so
important in the future. It's whereand how to get the information rather than
(10:46):
the information itself, which is ofvalue. So I wonder about then talking
about that the marketing of assessment andthere aren't any tools really that are doing
this effectively at the moment, butwe're starting to see that develop out,
and any thoughts on the future ofmarketing of assessments and how that might be
done, whether it's done partially byAI, and in the amount of activity
(11:11):
that the teacher has involved. Andthere's more, as you talked about high
level the pedagogy, looking after thestudents well being, looking after the development
in different ways, rather than spendinga lot of time perhaps going over the
same sort of information being represented slightlydifferently. Yes, and I think it's
going to require the imagination of teachersto use some of their assessment differently.
(11:35):
For example, if you're asked todiscuss a particular subject, it's much more
difficult to use AI to do thatthan it is if you are writing something,
and all those sort of different softwaretools that we've had in the past
have certainly been able to identify wherepieces have lifted straight from the Internet.
(11:56):
We need a development to ensure thatwhat younger people or older people students are
in fact submitting isn't just produced throughan AI tool. I don't have the
answer as how that's going to work, but in the same way as AI
is going to enable teachers to plantheir lessons in a hopefully a much way,
(12:20):
and they've then got to use theopportunities to assess it in a different
form. We talk about the progressthat students make in measuring it, and
you talk about the endpoint assessment andperhaps the disadvantages of moving more in tune
with that because of equity that followswith some students just not doing well in
that type of assessment and the limitationsof it, frankly of only having a
(12:43):
very thin area of activity that canbe assessed. Just moving into then equity
and equality within the use of AItools. Any thoughts on that and your
considerations and what you're thinking about fromthat point of view with students into the
future access to the technology per hipsthat it might impact on individuals, And
(13:05):
I think we've got to be carefulin our assumptions as to the access that
all students have to technology. Andagain we learned from the pandemic that there
were many students who only had theirphones and device, possibly didn't have any
access to an internet connection. Andif their family have not used digital devices
(13:28):
in a particular way, then theyhaven't been able to learn from that as
young people. So we could bein a situation where again the social mobility
gap ridens that those people who comefrom all parents living in poverty or don't
have parents that have careers in avery difficult place at home. In the
(13:50):
same way as if their parents didn'thave books, you could reflect that the
young people are not necessarily being persuadedto read. Then you've got the same
issue with AI that for those familieswho have a lot of digital at home,
they will develop very much more quicklyand it will leave a whole sector
(14:13):
behind. And we've also got tothink about people with learning difficulties, and
the numbers are going up significantly,and how we harness AI to enhance their
experience and allow them to develop,rather than find that the AI we use
is appropriate for people with some sortof learning difficulties just moving then on into
(14:37):
student well being in the work thatwe do with students and the ethics around
perhaps what's coming and I think wecan all see it where more and more
interactions perhaps with our products for studentsand their well being, in their support,
perhaps in their tutoring in the futureand individual support and that ifical deliberations
(14:58):
around it thoughts through I don't thinkas a sector and this is probably an
impossible task anyway, we have reallysolved the problem of student safety even with
the tools we've got now, let'salone the tools that are coming down the
road. So a lot of allcolleges will due tutorials on student safety and
(15:20):
we'll talk about the challenges that theInternet brings about. AI creates even more
of a challenge in that area,and we're already aware of where there have
been a use of AI to persuadepeople to disclose information that actually they shouldn't
have done. I think it's ahuge worry. As far as colleges are
(15:43):
concerned, their responsibility has got tobe to continue to talk about this in
whatever space, either in individual lessonsor tutorials or in other fields. But
also there is a responsibility for thestudents and the young people and the older
people to ensure that they've got theright protection. And because this is such
(16:07):
a very quickly moving infrastructure and newproducts coming online, it's extremely difficult to
ensure that the right things are inplace. I think there's a naormical issue
around that, and you can onlydo so much. Yeah, and it
seems I'm looking at the tools thatwe use often to protect what we have
(16:30):
traditionally used to protect our students insidethe college while they're using the internet,
the tools in any tools, thetools that identify specific use of text and
all sorts of things that are usedat the moment, and perhaps there's a
long way to go and developing thoseactually to make sure that they give us
additional protections, specially about as yousay, disclosing personal information. Those sorts
of things. Not sure they're asyet highly developed enough, so we have
(16:55):
to watch that space. I wouldagree with that, Kurt, and I
think we need some support from industryin this area. Industry is going to
have more fronts to develop more quicklysome protections, and they need to work
with colleges to ensure that happens.And then in the same way, one
of my interests is how we useAI to make colleges more efficient so that
(17:19):
they can spend more money on studentson the front line. I think there
are some very exciting applications around therisk assessment for students and how you identify
students who might drop out, andhow you bring information into the student record
system without having a whole army ofpeople try to try to manually input,
(17:45):
but we're going to need some investmentin that. Just picking up on that
productivity efficiency comment that you made,Sheila, there's organizations like a Censure who
talk about a thirty percent productivity gainfor rolling out artificial and intelligence tool.
Let's say that a teacher in acollege group now had fifteen hours more free
time a week from the use ofAI. But the AI was expensive,
(18:08):
could have been half a million dollarsto implement it. So let's call that
the AI dividend that fifteen hours.What do you think should happen to that
fifteen hours? The teachers are alreadyprobably working more than their contracted hours,
So is there an argument that itshould be for well being? Is there
an argument that the public sector andthe college it's funded half a million dollars
(18:30):
plus of investment, so they needto return from that or is there something
else to factor in? And doyou think we've even thought about that discussion
yet. I don't think we thoughtabout that discussion. I absolutely believe that
the money should be invested in furthersupporter students or enabling teachers to teach more
(18:52):
students. And let's face it,the college sector is suffering from a vo
type market is struggling to fire teachers, so if time is freed up,
that might allow a teacher to spendmore time with other students instead. I
think public investment in a state educationsystem continues to be a priority, and
(19:18):
it should then be up to educationinstitutions to make efficiencies in that way support
well being, which I think isequally important, and allow teachers to a
teacher in the definitely teacher in theircontract us, but also to spend a
bit more time, perhaps to researchor other areas that will enhance their teaching
(19:41):
continuous professional development. I don't thinkthere's any sort of financial benefit to it.
I think it is genuinely that thebenefits really are down to the impact
you have on students. And ifyou ask any teacher, what do they
want most is to spend more timewith your students, progressing them further.
If you ask a teacher, wouldyou like more hours to teach your studenttudents,
they absolutely say yes, I wantto teach. I want to have
(20:03):
more hours with my students, notless. That's absolutely the case. There
is never enough hours in your teacheron a particular subject area, you can
go deeper into that and get moreencouragement, more progress. So I see
that as probably the huge advantage reallyin some of these tools. And I
suppose the other thing is to reflectback, isn't it to say not only
in the classroom was focused a littlebit on teaching, but then what about
(20:23):
those efficiency measures and the gains youmight get more widely in the corporate services
and the areas that are administrative.And I know Ian talked about this some
sessions ago and it was really interestinghis thoughts, and it really made me
think actually, which was pointing theAI tools back into our organizations and looking
for patterns of inefficiency, looking forplaces where these tools could be used really
(20:47):
effectively to have net gains and improvethings that we didn't actually know perhaps needed
improving so much, Which was areally interesting insight actually, and that's going
to need some additional I suppose capitalput into that from a point of view
of those that are developing the tools, because they aren't a sort of drag
and drop, if you like.It really is about having tools that are
(21:07):
able to do that effectively into whatare complex organizations of colleges. We're not
like us for we're not like university. We are really quite different and we
have so many different aspects to consider. They really will need to be spoken.
I think, I think so.And you know, if a principle
was listening to this episode who hadn'tmaybe made too much advance yet in artificial
(21:29):
intelligence, there's a possibility that theymight feel little bit overwhelmed. We've talked
about AI for pedagogy, for communications, for transformation, for standards, but
academic integrity, for innovation, forsocial elements, for time serving, sufficiency,
productivity, for morale, for wellbeing, for access, for equity.
What advice would you have somebody interms of should they start, where
(21:52):
should they focus? Where are theareas that you see people starting with and
doing very well across such an expansivearea, The area in the best use
of that AI have been either inpractical delivery, particularly in engineering construction in
that area, and in the waythat teachers are using it to develop their
(22:12):
teaching practices and free up time.As Kut says on administrative duties, that's
where I would focus in the firstinstance. But I would always say to
every principle, you're not alone.There are plenty of other people who have
done some work in this area,and there are people generous enough to share.
(22:33):
So before you start and all andfeel overwhelmed by the whole problem,
we'll so, I mean, wecan signpost other colleges will signpost two people
who are doing a lot in thisspace. And if you came back on
the show and we were still doingthis in twelve months time, what sort
of success stories and wins would youhope that you were speaking about from the
(22:56):
sector effectively? What would you liketo see happen over them next year?
With AI? I would love thatto be a central place where we can
point everybody and say this is whatcolleges are doing. This is where you
can go and learn some practice,share some practice, and develop your AI.
(23:17):
Because I think at the moment weare missing a trick by the development
of it being down to individual's interests. I think we really need a focus
somewhere for the development of AI,and I'd love to see some funding and
some support going into that. Well, Sheila, you came on the show
(23:38):
and said that you were an eightout of ten, including zero for your
enthusiasm and positivity around harnsing artificial intelligencein our sector. So I couldn't be
happier to hear that the FE Commissionerfeels like that. This show is about
leadership, and I usually admire yourleadership and commitment to making sure that we
make the most of this historic opportunityin our sector. Hugually appreciate your inputs.
(24:03):
I know that we're all learning togetherin this space, but I thank
you greatly for coming and sharing someof your thoughts and ideas with us in
the show. It's an absolute pleasure. I feel that I lack an awful
lot of information in this space,but I am certainly keen to continue to
learn and use that knowledge to supportthe rest of the sector. So thank
(24:26):
you for having me on the show. Thank you, Thank you very much,
Sheila. Thank you Richard
Episode fourteen of our wonderful series,which focuses on further education, artificial intelligence,
and leadership, this holy trinity ofwhat we think is important for this
show. Kurti's great to see youagain and a huge welcome today to Sheila
la Grave. Perhaps you'll give usa minute of your introduction, including your
work in FEE and of course whatyou're doing now. Of course, so,
(00:22):
Sheila Legrave, I've been the FEcommissioner for two and a half years.
Prior to that, I've worked ina college where I was the principal
and chief executive for eleven years,and prior to that, I was an
accountant. And I've also worked inthe private sector and universities actually in the
(00:45):
finance. And on a scale ofzero to ten, Sheila zero being I
have absolutely no interest in this AIstuff in the sector through to ten,
which is I think this is oneof the most important thing that's ever happened.
Where do we find you at themoment, probably about eight. I
absolutely believe that AI is going tobe something which will transform what we do
(01:07):
in the next ten years, andit's something I'm really interested in. I
started looking when I was a principalat how we could use artificial intelligence to
support some of our systems within ourcollege. But chap GBT undoubtedly has peaked
my interest and made me realize howimportant this is going to be for the
(01:30):
sector going forward. I know youget around lots of colleges in the country,
lots of different operations, where haveyou seen some really great practice and
some of the things be great tohear what you've seen so far. I
think the sector as a whole isin its infancy in talking about AI,
but there are some colleges who arein the fourthfront. Basingstoke probably comes to
(01:53):
my mind as one that has taughta lot about what they have done and
has been kind enough to share thatwith the rest of the sector. So
what I've seen so far is someclever use of AI with some teaching some
practical skills such as virtual welding,such as the installation of airsorts, hoop
(02:15):
pumps and those sorts of areas.I've seen some interesting discussions about how AI
can save time with leaders, andI've linked into several principles who are working
in that space and again prepared toshare their expertise. And I've also heard
(02:39):
about the way AI is supporting teacherdevelopment. I've heard less but some about
the way AI is supporting colleges withits back office systems, but I think
that's probably the area that is leasttalked about, and the efficiencies and that
(03:00):
we can make, And of courseall colleges and sector we talk about funding
a lot, and the difficulties andthe strain that perhaps some of our corporate
services are under and effectively the skeletonstaffing perhaps that we've got in some organizations,
and this will help them and allowmore of that funding to go to
the front line and to make themmore efficient in the operation. So I'm
(03:20):
sure that's going to be something thatwe'll all watch really carefully and contribute to
in the future. I'm wondering aboutto any surprises you got when you started
to look around and some of thethings you've seen. Is there anything that
you've thought, gee, I didn'texpect to see that. One the most
surprising is that not every college isworking really hard in this space. Some
(03:40):
of that is lack of capacity,some of it's probably not an interest,
and some of it is that they'vegot challenges that they need to deal with
first. But that's probably surprised methe most, and also the lack of
consistency. So I couldn't say forevery college I've been to I've seen AI
used in this face, I haven't. I think we're seeing that on the
(04:03):
show too, and seeing big variationsin some of the development of different colleges
and focusing perhaps on different things dependingon the college and what they're looking at,
specifically in the interests of the individualsI think that are driving it in
those first adopters and things in theorganizations. In fact, we met Deborah
Gray not so long ago, andit was really interesting to hear the work
(04:25):
that she was doing with students,and I think they have an ow academy
which goes out to the community andhelps with employers looking at how they can
introduce and use AI tools within theirown businesses. I though it was a
really interesting use case that she bought. I was fascinated by depths response to
AI, and one of the areasthat I thought was particularly interesting is her
(04:46):
reflections around the needs of the employerson communication and therefore how AI can be
a supportive tool. But in theend we need to to provide to industry
people who have the right communication skills, the right team skills and all the
(05:08):
research says that, so you canhave gleveroroust type of artificial intelligence being used
to sports teens, but you've gotto have those soft skills, and she
was particularly strong on that anple sheyou talked about quite a different array of
adoption and interest and awareness and someonearound artificial intelligence in the leadership parts of
(05:29):
the sector. Just coming back tothat a bit, how do you think
will overcome some of those barriers thatyou mentioned. What I'm seeing is small
groups of self help, So thereare principles who are interested in they are
coming together and talking about it andsharing their practice and supporting their colleges to
learn from other institutions. What I'mnot seeing is anybody stepping forward, and
(05:54):
this will probably more be from associatedmembership bodies. I'm not seeing any leadership
coming forward that will move the collegesector forward per se and is going to
be a key part of leadership.Because the technology is moving so fast,
the world have to be at somepoint a way in which some sort of
(06:16):
formal courses are introduced. I thinkaround AI, it can't just be self
help. But I believe we're inthe early stages of this technology and at
the moment, it is collaboration froma few interested parties. And it's really
interesting that we're probably twelve months onfrom when Rich and I first started and
(06:39):
it was one of the first conversationswe had and that we didn't see the
leadership yet and this and part ofthe reason for having the show. The
leadership is one of the main conceptsbecause we recognize that perhaps get it's still
there and I think you sort ofeliminate that too, So we are still
very aware of it, I thinkas the sector and be very interesting to
(07:00):
see what's next there and what wedo next and how that plays out.
But certainly you see the gap wedo too. I'm sure there's plenty to
be done there. I just wantto go into assessment integrity because that's one
of the first things that came up, integrity of assessment. Oh my gosh,
how are we going to protect this? University's probably more so in that
space than colleges at the moment,but schools, colleges certainly colleges on the
(07:24):
academic integrity and looking at assessment writtenassessment effectively, which is done by assignment,
that sort of thing, which isprobably the most difficult thing to protect
any thoughts on that. Yes,And I think the danger in this conversation
is that you could end up withmuch more final exams because that is the
(07:46):
only way that it's believed you canmaintain the integrity of the assessment system.
And I think that would be apoor place to be because there are many
young people who are assessed more effectivelyby doing assignments. I think therefore the
(08:07):
assignments have got to reflect and stretchthe students in that higher order thinking.
And it's got to ensure that it'snot just a replication of facts, which
shouldn't be anyway, but it's howyou apply those facts there undoubtedly, and
I've seen lots of press assignments thathave been written by AI, so there's
(08:31):
also to have to be a systemof identifying that. And at the moment
it's possibly fairly straightforward because there aremany sources, but it's going to become
much more complicated as more and moresoftware is developed. And what is essential
is that young people don't get intheir qualifications just by replicating something out of
(08:56):
offisions intelligence. I don't have asolution to it, but I absolutely recognize
the challenge of it, and Ithink the important part of the teacher's role
is toing sure that they harness theundoubted advantages of AI, to enable students
(09:18):
to have those higher level conversations andto develop the pedagogy within their subject so
that it is enhanced through AI.But it's not actually replacing the thinking skills
of the individual students. I mean, I'm very keen on the social elements
(09:39):
of teaching and learning, and thepandemic for me, showed why people or
proved that people want to come together, and all our students who are learning
at home, the vast majority ofthem absolutely loaded that. So it's going
to be using AI in a clipway to enable those conversations to take place
(10:03):
and really to develop the thinking skillsin the brain that are going to be
crucial for those young people as they'regoing to employment. Exactly, and we've
talked about this on the show before, the sort of opportunity for cognitive offload
and perhaps calculators were the hugest,biggest cognitive offload of mathematics that was done
(10:24):
effectively and enabled and should have enabled. And you'd hope that this might be
the same that we can concentrate onexactly the skills you're talking about being much
more highly developed, rather than thefactual component, which perhaps is easily drawn
out and effectively offloaded to some ofthese tools, and perhaps not being so
important in the future. It's whereand how to get the information rather than
(10:46):
the information itself, which is ofvalue. So I wonder about then talking
about that the marketing of assessment andthere aren't any tools really that are doing
this effectively at the moment, butwe're starting to see that develop out,
and any thoughts on the future ofmarketing of assessments and how that might be
done, whether it's done partially byAI, and in the amount of activity
(11:11):
that the teacher has involved. Andthere's more, as you talked about high
level the pedagogy, looking after thestudents well being, looking after the development
in different ways, rather than spendinga lot of time perhaps going over the
same sort of information being represented slightlydifferently. Yes, and I think it's
going to require the imagination of teachersto use some of their assessment differently.
(11:35):
For example, if you're asked todiscuss a particular subject, it's much more
difficult to use AI to do thatthan it is if you are writing something,
and all those sort of different softwaretools that we've had in the past
have certainly been able to identify wherepieces have lifted straight from the Internet.
(11:56):
We need a development to ensure thatwhat younger people or older people students are
in fact submitting isn't just produced throughan AI tool. I don't have the
answer as how that's going to work, but in the same way as AI
is going to enable teachers to plantheir lessons in a hopefully a much way,
(12:20):
and they've then got to use theopportunities to assess it in a different
form. We talk about the progressthat students make in measuring it, and
you talk about the endpoint assessment andperhaps the disadvantages of moving more in tune
with that because of equity that followswith some students just not doing well in
that type of assessment and the limitationsof it, frankly of only having a
(12:43):
very thin area of activity that canbe assessed. Just moving into then equity
and equality within the use of AItools. Any thoughts on that and your
considerations and what you're thinking about fromthat point of view with students into the
future access to the technology per hipsthat it might impact on individuals, And
(13:05):
I think we've got to be carefulin our assumptions as to the access that
all students have to technology. Andagain we learned from the pandemic that there
were many students who only had theirphones and device, possibly didn't have any
access to an internet connection. Andif their family have not used digital devices
(13:28):
in a particular way, then theyhaven't been able to learn from that as
young people. So we could bein a situation where again the social mobility
gap ridens that those people who comefrom all parents living in poverty or don't
have parents that have careers in avery difficult place at home. In the
(13:50):
same way as if their parents didn'thave books, you could reflect that the
young people are not necessarily being persuadedto read. Then you've got the same
issue with AI that for those familieswho have a lot of digital at home,
they will develop very much more quicklyand it will leave a whole sector
(14:13):
behind. And we've also got tothink about people with learning difficulties, and
the numbers are going up significantly,and how we harness AI to enhance their
experience and allow them to develop,rather than find that the AI we use
is appropriate for people with some sortof learning difficulties just moving then on into
(14:37):
student well being in the work thatwe do with students and the ethics around
perhaps what's coming and I think wecan all see it where more and more
interactions perhaps with our products for studentsand their well being, in their support,
perhaps in their tutoring in the futureand individual support and that ifical deliberations
(14:58):
around it thoughts through I don't thinkas a sector and this is probably an
impossible task anyway, we have reallysolved the problem of student safety even with
the tools we've got now, let'salone the tools that are coming down the
road. So a lot of allcolleges will due tutorials on student safety and
(15:20):
we'll talk about the challenges that theInternet brings about. AI creates even more
of a challenge in that area,and we're already aware of where there have
been a use of AI to persuadepeople to disclose information that actually they shouldn't
have done. I think it's ahuge worry. As far as colleges are
(15:43):
concerned, their responsibility has got tobe to continue to talk about this in
whatever space, either in individual lessonsor tutorials or in other fields. But
also there is a responsibility for thestudents and the young people and the older
people to ensure that they've got theright protection. And because this is such
(16:07):
a very quickly moving infrastructure and newproducts coming online, it's extremely difficult to
ensure that the right things are inplace. I think there's a naormical issue
around that, and you can onlydo so much. Yeah, and it
seems I'm looking at the tools thatwe use often to protect what we have
(16:30):
traditionally used to protect our students insidethe college while they're using the internet,
the tools in any tools, thetools that identify specific use of text and
all sorts of things that are usedat the moment, and perhaps there's a
long way to go and developing thoseactually to make sure that they give us
additional protections, specially about as yousay, disclosing personal information. Those sorts
of things. Not sure they're asyet highly developed enough, so we have
(16:55):
to watch that space. I wouldagree with that, Kurt, and I
think we need some support from industryin this area. Industry is going to
have more fronts to develop more quicklysome protections, and they need to work
with colleges to ensure that happens.And then in the same way, one
of my interests is how we useAI to make colleges more efficient so that
(17:19):
they can spend more money on studentson the front line. I think there
are some very exciting applications around therisk assessment for students and how you identify
students who might drop out, andhow you bring information into the student record
system without having a whole army ofpeople try to try to manually input,
(17:45):
but we're going to need some investmentin that. Just picking up on that
productivity efficiency comment that you made,Sheila, there's organizations like a Censure who
talk about a thirty percent productivity gainfor rolling out artificial and intelligence tool.
Let's say that a teacher in acollege group now had fifteen hours more free
time a week from the use ofAI. But the AI was expensive,
(18:08):
could have been half a million dollarsto implement it. So let's call that
the AI dividend that fifteen hours.What do you think should happen to that
fifteen hours? The teachers are alreadyprobably working more than their contracted hours,
So is there an argument that itshould be for well being? Is there
an argument that the public sector andthe college it's funded half a million dollars
(18:30):
plus of investment, so they needto return from that or is there something
else to factor in? And doyou think we've even thought about that discussion
yet. I don't think we thoughtabout that discussion. I absolutely believe that
the money should be invested in furthersupporter students or enabling teachers to teach more
(18:52):
students. And let's face it,the college sector is suffering from a vo
type market is struggling to fire teachers, so if time is freed up,
that might allow a teacher to spendmore time with other students instead. I
think public investment in a state educationsystem continues to be a priority, and
(19:18):
it should then be up to educationinstitutions to make efficiencies in that way support
well being, which I think isequally important, and allow teachers to a
teacher in the definitely teacher in theircontract us, but also to spend a
bit more time, perhaps to researchor other areas that will enhance their teaching
(19:41):
continuous professional development. I don't thinkthere's any sort of financial benefit to it.
I think it is genuinely that thebenefits really are down to the impact
you have on students. And ifyou ask any teacher, what do they
want most is to spend more timewith your students, progressing them further.
If you ask a teacher, wouldyou like more hours to teach your studenttudents,
they absolutely say yes, I wantto teach. I want to have
(20:03):
more hours with my students, notless. That's absolutely the case. There
is never enough hours in your teacheron a particular subject area, you can
go deeper into that and get moreencouragement, more progress. So I see
that as probably the huge advantage reallyin some of these tools. And I
suppose the other thing is to reflectback, isn't it to say not only
in the classroom was focused a littlebit on teaching, but then what about
(20:23):
those efficiency measures and the gains youmight get more widely in the corporate services
and the areas that are administrative.And I know Ian talked about this some
sessions ago and it was really interestinghis thoughts, and it really made me
think actually, which was pointing theAI tools back into our organizations and looking
for patterns of inefficiency, looking forplaces where these tools could be used really
(20:47):
effectively to have net gains and improvethings that we didn't actually know perhaps needed
improving so much, Which was areally interesting insight actually, and that's going
to need some additional I suppose capitalput into that from a point of view
of those that are developing the tools, because they aren't a sort of drag
and drop, if you like.It really is about having tools that are
(21:07):
able to do that effectively into whatare complex organizations of colleges. We're not
like us for we're not like university. We are really quite different and we
have so many different aspects to consider. They really will need to be spoken.
I think, I think so.And you know, if a principle
was listening to this episode who hadn'tmaybe made too much advance yet in artificial
(21:29):
intelligence, there's a possibility that theymight feel little bit overwhelmed. We've talked
about AI for pedagogy, for communications, for transformation, for standards, but
academic integrity, for innovation, forsocial elements, for time serving, sufficiency,
productivity, for morale, for wellbeing, for access, for equity.
What advice would you have somebody interms of should they start, where
(21:52):
should they focus? Where are theareas that you see people starting with and
doing very well across such an expansivearea, The area in the best use
of that AI have been either inpractical delivery, particularly in engineering construction in
that area, and in the waythat teachers are using it to develop their
(22:12):
teaching practices and free up time.As Kut says on administrative duties, that's
where I would focus in the firstinstance. But I would always say to
every principle, you're not alone.There are plenty of other people who have
done some work in this area,and there are people generous enough to share.
(22:33):
So before you start and all andfeel overwhelmed by the whole problem,
we'll so, I mean, wecan signpost other colleges will signpost two people
who are doing a lot in thisspace. And if you came back on
the show and we were still doingthis in twelve months time, what sort
of success stories and wins would youhope that you were speaking about from the
(22:56):
sector effectively? What would you liketo see happen over them next year?
With AI? I would love thatto be a central place where we can
point everybody and say this is whatcolleges are doing. This is where you
can go and learn some practice,share some practice, and develop your AI.
(23:17):
Because I think at the moment weare missing a trick by the development
of it being down to individual's interests. I think we really need a focus
somewhere for the development of AI,and I'd love to see some funding and
some support going into that. Well, Sheila, you came on the show
(23:38):
and said that you were an eightout of ten, including zero for your
enthusiasm and positivity around harnsing artificial intelligencein our sector. So I couldn't be
happier to hear that the FE Commissionerfeels like that. This show is about
leadership, and I usually admire yourleadership and commitment to making sure that we
make the most of this historic opportunityin our sector. Hugually appreciate your inputs.
(24:03):
I know that we're all learning togetherin this space, but I thank
you greatly for coming and sharing someof your thoughts and ideas with us in
the show. It's an absolute pleasure. I feel that I lack an awful
lot of information in this space,but I am certainly keen to continue to
learn and use that knowledge to supportthe rest of the sector. So thank
(24:26):
you for having me on the show. Thank you, Thank you very much,
Sheila. Thank you Richard
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