June 17, 2024 • 23 mins
Series: Artificial Intelligence, Leadership, and the Future of Further Education
Hosts:
Laurence Frewin has been the Principal & CEO of South Devon College since September 2019. He is known for his strategic leadership and management expertise, both in the private sector and in education. Laurence's career at South Devon College began in 2010 as Vice Principal Corporate Services, later becoming Deputy CEO. He has led significant cross-college initiatives in sustainability, equality, and diversity, and managed professional and business support areas. His notable achievements include overseeing the development of major infrastructure projects like the £9m University Building, £7m South West Energy Centre, and the £17m Hi Tech & Digital Centre.
Episode 19: "Beyond the Horizon: The Laurence Frewin Vision for South Devon "
Episode Overview:
In "Beyond the Horizon: The Laurence Frewin Vision for South Devon ," we explore the transformative role of AI and digital technologies in further education. Laurence Frewin shares his strategic vision for integrating AI at South Devon College, his leadership philosophy, and the college's role as a community hub. This episode delves into specific AI projects, community engagement through technology, and strategic planning for the future educational landscape.
Key Topics of Discussion:
Tune in to gain valuable insights into strategic planning, community engagement, and the ethical integration of AI in education.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-boundless-podcast--4077400/support.
Hosts:
- Richard Foster-Fletcher, Executive Chair, MKAI.org
- Kurt Hintz, Managing Director, Fortis Education Consulting
- Laurence Frewin, Principal and CEO, South Devon College
Laurence Frewin has been the Principal & CEO of South Devon College since September 2019. He is known for his strategic leadership and management expertise, both in the private sector and in education. Laurence's career at South Devon College began in 2010 as Vice Principal Corporate Services, later becoming Deputy CEO. He has led significant cross-college initiatives in sustainability, equality, and diversity, and managed professional and business support areas. His notable achievements include overseeing the development of major infrastructure projects like the £9m University Building, £7m South West Energy Centre, and the £17m Hi Tech & Digital Centre.
Episode 19: "Beyond the Horizon: The Laurence Frewin Vision for South Devon "
Episode Overview:
In "Beyond the Horizon: The Laurence Frewin Vision for South Devon ," we explore the transformative role of AI and digital technologies in further education. Laurence Frewin shares his strategic vision for integrating AI at South Devon College, his leadership philosophy, and the college's role as a community hub. This episode delves into specific AI projects, community engagement through technology, and strategic planning for the future educational landscape.
Key Topics of Discussion:
- Visionary Leadership in Education: Examining Laurence's approach to leadership and strategic vision for South Devon College amidst technological evolution.
- The Crossroads of AI and Education: Discussing specific AI projects at South Devon College and collaborations with tech companies.
- Community and Business Engagement Through Technology: Exploring how digital tools support learners, businesses, and the local community.
- Strategic Thinking and Future Planning: Reflecting on Laurence's strategic planning for the future educational landscape, including preparation for 2035 and beyond.
- Ethical and Creative Considerations in AI: Addressing ethical dilemmas and creative challenges posed by AI in education.
- Innovative Leadership: Highlighting the importance of visionary leadership in driving technological transformation in education.
- Ethical AI Integration: Emphasizing the need for ethical considerations and policy development in AI adoption.
- Empowering Communities: Showcasing how technology can foster community and business engagement, enhancing educational outcomes.
Tune in to gain valuable insights into strategic planning, community engagement, and the ethical integration of AI in education.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-boundless-podcast--4077400/support.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
A huge Welcome to episode eighteen ofour mini series focusing on further education,
artificial intelligence and the art of leadership. So, Kurt, it's always great
to be alongside you in these sessions. Hello Richard Lawrence, Well you better
set the scene for a ze Lawrence. What do you do in the sector
or what are you working on?Tell us a bit about you. I'm
(00:21):
Prince Born, chief exec for SouthDevon College and we cover a catchment.
It's quite a large catchment from Extrain the east down to Plymouth in the
west and the population that we're coveringis probably in the region of about two
hundred and fifty thousand people. Andwe're a general further education college, but
we are slightly different from most becausewe are very broad. We have quite
(00:43):
a range of students that we serve. Primarily, it's sixteen to eighteen year
olds and about eight to ten thousandstudents a year. About a quarter of
those and two in our thousand orso are sixteen to eighteen year olds here
doing further education. But we alsohave a high school, so we have
two hundred young people from fourteen,sixteen, year ten and year eleven.
Those are the GCSE years, butWe also have a university center, which
(01:07):
is not uncommon in colleges, butwhat's slightly different for us is that we
have our own degree awarding powers,so we can write and shape our own
degrees up to level five, whichare dation degrees. We work very closely
with employers and others to make surethat those degrees are really fit for purpose
and it allows us to be veryflexible, very hand child But we do
(01:27):
work with a university partner as well, the University of Plymouth. We work
with them for over thirty years,so higher education is very much in that
blood as well. And for acollege of our size, we have quite
a large number of apprentices around abouteighteen hundred and that's growing every year,
and a real range of offers acrossall different types of curriculum and sectors.
(01:49):
We also have a really interesting specialismin marine because of where we are.
We're down on the South Devon coastand we've got a specialist marine academy down
on the River Dart and so we'vegot marine assets down their boats and some
specialist facilities as well. It's areally great start and very interesting to hear
just leading into then I think thestrategy that you've bagged on in this last
(02:12):
five years or so. Obviously there'sconsiderations of the technology advancers, and I
know you've got a high tech centerthere and hubd be great to get a
little bit about up there. Howyou've developed some thinking that's gone on recently
and where are you hitting So atthe High Tech and Digital Center we opened
in September twenty nineteen, and thatwas a seventeen and a half million pounds
investment and focused on two kind ofprimary areas that we've got some specialisms in
(02:38):
and reflect the area that we serveas well. So interestingly Torbay has got
quite a significant pluster of high techphotonics companies. Photonics for the unitiated,
which I was one, is thescience of light. So basically the photonic
sector locally produce a lot of whatdrives fiber optics, so the Internet,
(02:59):
mobile techechnology, space technology, particularlysatellite technology. And the college itself.
The building we now occupy used tobe the European headquarters for a company called
Nutel. Lautel closed the doors innineteen ninety nine and about five thousand people
who worked here, very highly qualified, very technical, lost their jobs.
Pretty much overnight. But the positiveof that is there was a bit of
(03:22):
a phoenix, so a lot ofsmall companies spun out from that. People
use their redundancies to start specialist companiesand that cluster of people still exists today,
roughly one hundred million a year generatedin our local economy in Torbay from
that sector, employing about twelve tofifteen hundred people now and growing quite significantly,
and it's about the fourth or fifthmost significant cluster of technology in the
(03:46):
UK. So that's an area andwe've been designing specialist qualifications up to level
five foundation degree and we've got afair exciting project with one of those companies
being funded by Innovating k to developsome curriculum that will be nationally available.
And also in the high tech center, there's a lot of digital activity.
We're just in the process of investingfurther in cybersecurity, putting in a red
(04:06):
Blue team space as well, sothat we can properly have some ethical hacking
and helping to develop qualifications, skills, knowledge behavior in that area, which
is becoming increasingly important, particularly notonly for us in the UK but globally
as well. And alongside that,of course technology such as AI, which
is really exciting that we're working onas well, both for US as an
(04:30):
organization and in the curriculum to helpmeet the growing skills that are going to
be needed for the future in thatspace. And it's great to see the
education budget now flixing to have tailorlearning where we can now actually deliver exactly
the skills, knowledge and behaviors thatare needed by employers. I'm confident about
that for the future too, andit's great to see that and the way
(04:50):
you're flixing your provision to do exactlythat. And I'd wonder too about some
of the tools that might be usedor some of the projects it might be
working on in relation to building someof those behaviors, and I not there's
some software products out there now thatyou can do practice interview techniques and can
really start to hone some of thoseskills. Are you're working on in if
(05:11):
you've got any projects going, begreat to hear about some of network which
has, like you say, developingbehaviors perhaps rather than the hard skills.
Yeah, for sure. So we'rereally interested in artificial intelligence and how we
might use some of that technology ina different way, both from the point
of view of us as an organizationbecause we're the third largest employer in our
area and we very much see ourselvesas an anchor institution. So we believe
(05:34):
we need to be leading the wayor helping to lead the way in our
community alongside out our local authority partnersand other large employers. And AI is
on everybody's lips, isn't it eighteenmonths ago, who'd even really heard of
chatch ebtnar And here we are eighteenmonths later and is everywhere in most sectors.
But I still feel that we've gota long way to go, and
(05:56):
we're finding our way with that.So some of the things that we're working
on we're looking at how we mightstart using artificial intelligence within the organizations.
How can it help us be moreefficient? How can it help us create
capacity? Because people hear efficiency andthey go, you're going to take jobs
away? No, actually, weneed to change jobs. The jobs will
be very different, and if we'renot preparing people to embrace artificial intelligence and
(06:19):
to be able to take those newjobs and do things in a different way,
then not only as an employer,but as a training provider, we're
failing in our duty. So that'sreally important that we're thinking about how do
we build this into our curriculum,where is it most needed, where is
it needed most quickly. But we'realso using it in how we're supporting students
as well. So how can weimprove feedback and assessment for students, How
(06:43):
can we help them to be ableto come make really fast progress in their
area of learning, but also acrossall areas, not just in technology or
those areas that seem obvious. Howdo we think about using artificial intelligence and
building that into the curriculum so thatour students are ready when they leave the
college for the workplace. And ifwe get the bit about the behavior as
(07:06):
those power skills, but they're reallyadaptable so that when the changes come,
they know how to learn new thingsreally well and really quickly and apply those
new things in the workplace. I'mreally keen to understand too now how colleges
are reacting to the different types ofjobs that they might need actually to help
(07:28):
provide that support. Are there somenew roles, some new titles that are
coming along that are more heavily onthe technology side, and are some of
those jobs of teaching and learning andassessment perhaps support is that changing are you
seeing any of that change and what'syour projection for the future on how some
of those roles work change? AndI guess what other roles we might need
that we don't currently have at themoment. Yeah, they are changing.
(07:53):
We're going to need more people helpingus to understand how we use the technology
first and foremost, because there isa risk that you get lots of money
coming at you at certain points,people saying we want to invest in new
technology, and everybody goes, let'sbuy something, and you have all the
gear and no idea. So whatwe're finding is that we want more people.
We're going to need more people tohelp us to use the technology effectively
(08:16):
actually to be able to have theright resources in there. So if we're
using artificial technology, for example,if we're designing resources for teaching around that,
have we got the skill set tobe able to do that. Particularly
where we look retraining or up skillingadults, they're not necessarily coming into the
college in the same way that theyused to. They might be doing it
(08:37):
at ten o'clock at night, afterthe kids have been put to bed and
they've done all the washing up,and they're ready to do something for a
couple of hours and they might wanta bit more instant feedback, So can
we use artificial intelligence in that way? So I think we're going to see
more people with those skills needing tocome in. But also we need our
specialists, our teachers, our curriculumspecialists. We need to retrain them because
(09:01):
actually they're guys who know how todo what needs to be done. If
we've got the heteragogy, if weknow how to teach really well, we
just need to make sure that we'reallowing them to use that technology. Because
this is big change. Isn't itbe quite fearful for people and they might
be worried about their jobs or canI keep up with the pace? So
(09:22):
I think we have to keep itin bitesize chunks and every time we have
a training development Day or a CPDdays just to make sure that we're not
losing sight of actually what's our corebusiness, which is teaching and learning and
helping students to learn really well.Exactly there. And I want to just
go back in and take us downto the creativity line and are the challenges
coming along in this space where there'spotential I guess push pull between some of
(09:48):
these areas where AI may in theshort term reduce some of the opportunities for
young people, especially at the lowerlevels perhips, of going into work where
they're not as highly skilled and theydon't have the opportunity to PEPs developers quickly
or able to go into the higherlevel jobs that less likely to be replaced.
I guess interested in your thoughts onthat particular area of that, I
(10:11):
guess the lower level entry level jobsand some of them that may be reducing
through some of the technologies that havebeen developed, especially in the creative industries.
Yeah. So the creative industries isa really interesting one, isn't it,
Because there's lots of ethical questions aboutaire using other people's quite rich material
that's unique to them, writers,film producers, etc. And I think
(10:33):
if it's used well, and Ithink if the ethics are right and people
are not plagiarizing work and trying toput something present something that is their own,
which is not, then I thinkthat can only make it a richer
experience. And actually doing things toenhance a film or a production or music
even that allows it to be evenbetter. And I don't know when people
(10:56):
wrote books using a pen and paper, and then you've got work process is
introduced, which spell check for you. Is that making it worse? Is
that a threat? Probably not,because actually it makes life easy because you
can concentrate on the creative process anduse the tool to enhance that so that
you can really lift it over andabove. That's how I see things on
(11:18):
the creative side. I think thelower level jobs, that's a really interesting
one. If we look at thingslike accountancy is a great one. Isn't
it that artificial intelligence is already takingaccountancy jobs ordered jobs. A lot of
the grunt of doing an external orderevery year if you're an accountant, can
now be dealt with by artificial intelligence, looking for fraud, looking for duplication,
looking for mistakes in ledgers and journalsthat are posted. And again,
(11:41):
I think that's more about saying,actually, this creates the capacity, and
those people who might have done thoselower level jobs, they then need to
we need to retrain them to beable to use the artificial intelligence. But
I just wondered about how useful internshipsand apprenticeships might be. And there's an
acceptance when you're doing those actually thatyou're not that productive, And there's a
(12:03):
recognition when you do an apprenticeship thatused to be a sort of scale.
In year one, perhaps you're onethird as productive as a fully competent person,
and in year two, perhaps youare halfway there or two thirsdy,
and by year three perhaps you're almostat full capacity for productivity. And internships
very similar often done unpaid in manyareas because the non productive nature. And
(12:24):
I just wonder about the reset andrethinking of some of these roles that perhaps
need an element of recognition for maybenot as productive in the first couple of
years, that acceptance perhaps rather thanevery role needs to be fully productive,
one hundred percent competent and able todeliver on the bottom line. And I
just wonder about that as we gointo this realm of perhaps some of those
(12:48):
lower level skills not being as necessary. Yeah. No, that's a really
interesting observation, and I think it'ssomething that we probably do need to tackle
making sure that employers are aware of. Is that's normal and there's nothing wrong
with that. But the new peoplein the organization can bring a different perspective,
and particularly if we're talking about youngerpeople from sixteen upwards, actually they
(13:11):
may not be able to do theskilled bit of the job, but they
will have a different way of thinking. And actually, if we as educators
and employers use that really effectively,they could help improve productivity in a business
because you know, the fact thatwe've always done something doesn't mean that we
should keep doing it. And Ialways say to colleagues who come into us
(13:35):
work for us, who are new, You've got this great opportunity things that
we no longer see coming in,bright eyed and fresh face into a business
or an organization. And sometimes it'sreally simple stuff. It's just why are
you doing this? Stop doing it? No one's reading that report and no
one's looking at that. That pieceof work makes no impact. And we
need to start talking about impact,don't we. And it's not all about
or they can do with this manywidgets every single day, it's actually what
(13:58):
difference? What impact are they making? And I think that's what we should
be encouraging. And yeah, acceptingthat it takes a while to get fully
productive, yeah, I think that'scritical. And Kurt, you explained it
quite clearly as well, is thatif AI is replacing jobs, we know
the kinds of jobs it's going toreplace, the easier ones, the lower
(14:18):
level ones than the entry ones.Okay, great for productivity, not great
for college leaders and graduates who suddenlyhave found the first run of the ladder
has gone disappeared, so now you'vegot to jump two rungs. So I
think Lawrence, to your point there, it's not about necessarily just trying to
get them to jump those two runs. It's to reframe the question, say,
(14:39):
actually, it's not just about productivityand how many widgets per hour.
They will bring something different to yourorganization and that's what you're replaced in the
run with, rather than just tryingto have AI and then more higher skilled
people. That's really nicely said Richard. And I think I've got an example
whereas a young individual who's twenty three, who's just gone in to a very
(15:01):
long established IT local IT company asa director at twenty three. The other
director is probably another twenty years older, and they've been running the company for
a while, but that they area really powerful team because this young person's
gone in with actually great behaviors,to be fair, really great behaviors,
but also some fantastic knowledge and highlydeveloped technical skills, some of which he's
(15:24):
got through the college through other ways, but it's got really clear view and
bringing new opportunities to that company intech. Cybersecurity is one to begin with.
And I just think that we shouldn'tsay somebody is eighteen, twenty three
thirty, they're too young to beable to make a difference in business.
So I think we have to startthinking people can have an impact in business,
(15:48):
whether it's on productivity or the waythat a business does things, because
you're going to have to change andhaving a diverse workforce, having a range
of ages, those with experience maybejust need to take a bit more time
on that because at this risk,those who've got these new innovative ideas and
lots of energy get ca Let's dothis because if we get that balancing and
the behaviors across the organization and theculture, if we can help as a
(16:12):
college, if we can help buildthose workforces in that way, hopefully we're
going to see a really fantastic,exciting economy of the future. People feeling
valued, prosperous, making a differenceas well as earning a good living and
feeling fulfilled. I'm guessing in anarea like Devon, we're actually I suppose
(16:33):
the beauty of the internet, thetools we're working on right now. You
can live anywhere in pretty much workonline and in a way that perhaps you
couldn't before. So many more opportunities, I'm sure for people to explore different
roles that they could have never hadthat opportunity before. Yeah. Absolutely,
I live in a little fishing villagenot far from here and I can get
(16:53):
a full fiber five hundred megabits.How fantastic is that? So? Yeah,
you can get far last access online. You can work in all sorts
of different places. People travel maybea day or two a week to go
and do something more physically, butspend the rest of the time they can
do it in a brilliant pace.Lucky you if that's the case. But
(17:14):
that's not just what you've done,because you've also been highly focused on a
very specialized area as well, whichis in the photonics industry. And just
looking at some of the information,I think you've raised over half a million
pounds in corporate funding. You're producinggraduates where the average salary in this area
is sixty seven percent higher than othersectors around the country. I wondered what
(17:36):
sort of words you'd have for otherpeople in the sector about that the potential
of really niching down on a sectorand getting known for something like that.
What have been some of the lessonsand experiences that you've had in doing that?
Wow? And that's a great question, Richard. I think what we've
learned from that is that actually thefirst thing is to work really closely with
the employers to find out what itis they really need and to understand their
(17:59):
sector and their markets and their business. And photonics is an interesting one because
they're all really quite different and mentionedclusters. There's five or six clusters around
the country of significance, of whichToll Bay is one, but they will
do slightly different things. We hadto get to know the cluster. But
that could be in health, itcould be in construction, being really clear
on what is that specialism, andthen it's working with them and taking a
(18:25):
long view. So I would sayit probably took us ten years to convince
the photonic sector that actually an FEcollege could really meet their needs because traditionally
they'd gone to red Brick Russell Groupuniversities for computer science, physics or maths
grads and that was great. Thesewere great intelligent young people. But the
first thing they had to do wasto train them how to do the job
(18:45):
in the business. And the secondthing they had to do was try and
keep hold of them because once theywere trained to do the job, they
had these amazing skill set, greatqualifications they could take anywhere around the world.
So we said, let us helpyou grow local talent. And that
way, if we take them throughan apprenticeship route, for example, we
build the qualifications with you. Thesewill be really loyal people. But they
(19:07):
will do exactly how they will workin the way you want them to work.
They will be part of You'll havethe right culture and actually and they'll
live locally so they won't be necessarilylooking to go away. Of course we
want them to progress. But youtalk about the salaries. The average salary
in South Devon is probably in theregion about twenty five thousand pounds. It's
a bit lower than the national twentyfive thousand. Jobs. Of the fifty
one thousand people that work in justTorbay as parts of South Devon are in
(19:33):
the hospitality and tourism sector, whichis a phenomenal sector generating halfwa billion pounds
a year for us in South Devon, but there are twelve hundred to fifteen
hundred people generating one hundred million andearning an average salary of forty to fifty
thousand a years. Find those opportunitiesthat are going to really help your local
economy and talk to the key players. For us, it's health. For
(19:53):
us, it's construction, and it'salso photonics, a marine as well as
is really exciting that you've teed upmy next question perfectly because what's the challenge
there? Because we've heard this fromother principles and CEOs that like you,
they recognize the need to develop verytechnical people for our future. And if
you don't believe me on this,I'm talking to our listeners. Now go
(20:15):
on to chat GPT and say whichjobs are at risk and get a list,
And then say which jobs are goingto be created and get a list
and look at the difference. Theyare not the same level of jobs,
right, so we know we've gota more skilled future needed. You were
telling us about the photonics industry andhow they're working in some of the latest
working in fiber optics, for band, in connective technologies, in space technologies,
(20:37):
and now you've mentioned marine and health. These are phenomenal, but how
do you balance that as a leaderin your college, knowing that some people
need that incredibly high level of technicaldevelopment, but others are still going to
be providing the core services and skillsinto business and society, and in many
respects nothing will change, I suppose. My question is is there a danger
(20:57):
of getting carried away with the excitingstuff and leaving others behind and knowing that
the future needs to evolve everybody,not just the ones who are going to
make the headlines. Yeah, that'sa really important point or two. Thank
you. We've got a very broadoffer at the college we are. We
see ourselves as very inclusive because wedo have some real challenges in South Devon,
(21:18):
many coastal towns and communities do,so we have to meet those and
then we've got those extremes of greatopportunities as well. We see our job
to take young people and adults fromperhaps of a place where they've had more
challenges in their life and help themget those great jobs. But you're right,
it's really very easy to see somethingvery shiny and really exciting and to
(21:42):
forget about your core, and sowe take a balanced view of that and
we make sure that we do everythingin balance. We never forget who we're
here to serve, which is ourcommunity of South Devon. So when I
talk regionally, when I talk nationally, we always focus first and foremost on
tour By, so because that's ourcommunity. So you have to pick and
(22:03):
choose what works for you. Youhave to build really solid relationships with the
people that can help you achieve that. So for us, it's very much
the employers and the stakeholders that sitaround them, the local authorities, the
economic development partners, the business representativebodies, and working with them help us
to shape that and to focus onwhat's important. So rather than chasing lots
(22:26):
of things, we're chasing one ortwo that we know that we can do
really well. If we can't doit really well, then we won't do
it. And that's it's actually harderto say no. I've had to learn
as a principal and CEO to sayno more than I say yes, increasingly
because exactly as you're saying, youcan take your eye off the ball and
chase things and something else gives.That's actually more important because that's your kind
(22:51):
of core business lawrence. You're pickingstudents up at fourteen fifteen, you're taking
people all the way to finishing theirbachelors, which is a phenomenal scope.
And you've talked about the range ofinclusive curriculum and skills that you want to
develop along with someone the most hightech skills that we're seeing in the UK
and beyond. So I'm in aweof what you're doing. It's phenomenal and
(23:12):
I'm so happy that we've had thetime to talk with you about it a
little bit more and to understand whereartificial intelligence fits into that, both now
and in the future. And Ireally hope that perhaps you'd come and see
us again on the show in thefuture and we can learn more about how
it's going. Thanks for having me. I really enjoyed it, and yeah,
I'd love to come back if there'san interest in a couple of years
time to see how we're getting on, what difference we're making. Let me
(23:33):
know. It's been absolutely fascinating,Lawrence, So thank you very much for
coming on.
A huge Welcome to episode eighteen ofour mini series focusing on further education,
artificial intelligence and the art of leadership. So, Kurt, it's always great
to be alongside you in these sessions. Hello Richard Lawrence, Well you better
set the scene for a ze Lawrence. What do you do in the sector
or what are you working on?Tell us a bit about you. I'm
(00:21):
Prince Born, chief exec for SouthDevon College and we cover a catchment.
It's quite a large catchment from Extrain the east down to Plymouth in the
west and the population that we're coveringis probably in the region of about two
hundred and fifty thousand people. Andwe're a general further education college, but
we are slightly different from most becausewe are very broad. We have quite
(00:43):
a range of students that we serve. Primarily, it's sixteen to eighteen year
olds and about eight to ten thousandstudents a year. About a quarter of
those and two in our thousand orso are sixteen to eighteen year olds here
doing further education. But we alsohave a high school, so we have
two hundred young people from fourteen,sixteen, year ten and year eleven.
Those are the GCSE years, butWe also have a university center, which
(01:07):
is not uncommon in colleges, butwhat's slightly different for us is that we
have our own degree awarding powers,so we can write and shape our own
degrees up to level five, whichare dation degrees. We work very closely
with employers and others to make surethat those degrees are really fit for purpose
and it allows us to be veryflexible, very hand child But we do
(01:27):
work with a university partner as well, the University of Plymouth. We work
with them for over thirty years,so higher education is very much in that
blood as well. And for acollege of our size, we have quite
a large number of apprentices around abouteighteen hundred and that's growing every year,
and a real range of offers acrossall different types of curriculum and sectors.
(01:49):
We also have a really interesting specialismin marine because of where we are.
We're down on the South Devon coastand we've got a specialist marine academy down
on the River Dart and so we'vegot marine assets down their boats and some
specialist facilities as well. It's areally great start and very interesting to hear
just leading into then I think thestrategy that you've bagged on in this last
(02:12):
five years or so. Obviously there'sconsiderations of the technology advancers, and I
know you've got a high tech centerthere and hubd be great to get a
little bit about up there. Howyou've developed some thinking that's gone on recently
and where are you hitting So atthe High Tech and Digital Center we opened
in September twenty nineteen, and thatwas a seventeen and a half million pounds
investment and focused on two kind ofprimary areas that we've got some specialisms in
(02:38):
and reflect the area that we serveas well. So interestingly Torbay has got
quite a significant pluster of high techphotonics companies. Photonics for the unitiated,
which I was one, is thescience of light. So basically the photonic
sector locally produce a lot of whatdrives fiber optics, so the Internet,
(02:59):
mobile techechnology, space technology, particularlysatellite technology. And the college itself.
The building we now occupy used tobe the European headquarters for a company called
Nutel. Lautel closed the doors innineteen ninety nine and about five thousand people
who worked here, very highly qualified, very technical, lost their jobs.
Pretty much overnight. But the positiveof that is there was a bit of
(03:22):
a phoenix, so a lot ofsmall companies spun out from that. People
use their redundancies to start specialist companiesand that cluster of people still exists today,
roughly one hundred million a year generatedin our local economy in Torbay from
that sector, employing about twelve tofifteen hundred people now and growing quite significantly,
and it's about the fourth or fifthmost significant cluster of technology in the
(03:46):
UK. So that's an area andwe've been designing specialist qualifications up to level
five foundation degree and we've got afair exciting project with one of those companies
being funded by Innovating k to developsome curriculum that will be nationally available.
And also in the high tech center, there's a lot of digital activity.
We're just in the process of investingfurther in cybersecurity, putting in a red
(04:06):
Blue team space as well, sothat we can properly have some ethical hacking
and helping to develop qualifications, skills, knowledge behavior in that area, which
is becoming increasingly important, particularly notonly for us in the UK but globally
as well. And alongside that,of course technology such as AI, which
is really exciting that we're working onas well, both for US as an
(04:30):
organization and in the curriculum to helpmeet the growing skills that are going to
be needed for the future in thatspace. And it's great to see the
education budget now flixing to have tailorlearning where we can now actually deliver exactly
the skills, knowledge and behaviors thatare needed by employers. I'm confident about
that for the future too, andit's great to see that and the way
(04:50):
you're flixing your provision to do exactlythat. And I'd wonder too about some
of the tools that might be usedor some of the projects it might be
working on in relation to building someof those behaviors, and I not there's
some software products out there now thatyou can do practice interview techniques and can
really start to hone some of thoseskills. Are you're working on in if
(05:11):
you've got any projects going, begreat to hear about some of network which
has, like you say, developingbehaviors perhaps rather than the hard skills.
Yeah, for sure. So we'rereally interested in artificial intelligence and how we
might use some of that technology ina different way, both from the point
of view of us as an organizationbecause we're the third largest employer in our
area and we very much see ourselvesas an anchor institution. So we believe
(05:34):
we need to be leading the wayor helping to lead the way in our
community alongside out our local authority partnersand other large employers. And AI is
on everybody's lips, isn't it eighteenmonths ago, who'd even really heard of
chatch ebtnar And here we are eighteenmonths later and is everywhere in most sectors.
But I still feel that we've gota long way to go, and
(05:56):
we're finding our way with that.So some of the things that we're working
on we're looking at how we mightstart using artificial intelligence within the organizations.
How can it help us be moreefficient? How can it help us create
capacity? Because people hear efficiency andthey go, you're going to take jobs
away? No, actually, weneed to change jobs. The jobs will
be very different, and if we'renot preparing people to embrace artificial intelligence and
(06:19):
to be able to take those newjobs and do things in a different way,
then not only as an employer,but as a training provider, we're
failing in our duty. So that'sreally important that we're thinking about how do
we build this into our curriculum,where is it most needed, where is
it needed most quickly. But we'realso using it in how we're supporting students
as well. So how can weimprove feedback and assessment for students, How
(06:43):
can we help them to be ableto come make really fast progress in their
area of learning, but also acrossall areas, not just in technology or
those areas that seem obvious. Howdo we think about using artificial intelligence and
building that into the curriculum so thatour students are ready when they leave the
college for the workplace. And ifwe get the bit about the behavior as
(07:06):
those power skills, but they're reallyadaptable so that when the changes come,
they know how to learn new thingsreally well and really quickly and apply those
new things in the workplace. I'mreally keen to understand too now how colleges
are reacting to the different types ofjobs that they might need actually to help
(07:28):
provide that support. Are there somenew roles, some new titles that are
coming along that are more heavily onthe technology side, and are some of
those jobs of teaching and learning andassessment perhaps support is that changing are you
seeing any of that change and what'syour projection for the future on how some
of those roles work change? AndI guess what other roles we might need
that we don't currently have at themoment. Yeah, they are changing.
(07:53):
We're going to need more people helpingus to understand how we use the technology
first and foremost, because there isa risk that you get lots of money
coming at you at certain points,people saying we want to invest in new
technology, and everybody goes, let'sbuy something, and you have all the
gear and no idea. So whatwe're finding is that we want more people.
We're going to need more people tohelp us to use the technology effectively
(08:16):
actually to be able to have theright resources in there. So if we're
using artificial technology, for example,if we're designing resources for teaching around that,
have we got the skill set tobe able to do that. Particularly
where we look retraining or up skillingadults, they're not necessarily coming into the
college in the same way that theyused to. They might be doing it
(08:37):
at ten o'clock at night, afterthe kids have been put to bed and
they've done all the washing up,and they're ready to do something for a
couple of hours and they might wanta bit more instant feedback, So can
we use artificial intelligence in that way? So I think we're going to see
more people with those skills needing tocome in. But also we need our
specialists, our teachers, our curriculumspecialists. We need to retrain them because
(09:01):
actually they're guys who know how todo what needs to be done. If
we've got the heteragogy, if weknow how to teach really well, we
just need to make sure that we'reallowing them to use that technology. Because
this is big change. Isn't itbe quite fearful for people and they might
be worried about their jobs or canI keep up with the pace? So
(09:22):
I think we have to keep itin bitesize chunks and every time we have
a training development Day or a CPDdays just to make sure that we're not
losing sight of actually what's our corebusiness, which is teaching and learning and
helping students to learn really well.Exactly there. And I want to just
go back in and take us downto the creativity line and are the challenges
coming along in this space where there'spotential I guess push pull between some of
(09:48):
these areas where AI may in theshort term reduce some of the opportunities for
young people, especially at the lowerlevels perhips, of going into work where
they're not as highly skilled and theydon't have the opportunity to PEPs developers quickly
or able to go into the higherlevel jobs that less likely to be replaced.
I guess interested in your thoughts onthat particular area of that, I
(10:11):
guess the lower level entry level jobsand some of them that may be reducing
through some of the technologies that havebeen developed, especially in the creative industries.
Yeah. So the creative industries isa really interesting one, isn't it,
Because there's lots of ethical questions aboutaire using other people's quite rich material
that's unique to them, writers,film producers, etc. And I think
(10:33):
if it's used well, and Ithink if the ethics are right and people
are not plagiarizing work and trying toput something present something that is their own,
which is not, then I thinkthat can only make it a richer
experience. And actually doing things toenhance a film or a production or music
even that allows it to be evenbetter. And I don't know when people
(10:56):
wrote books using a pen and paper, and then you've got work process is
introduced, which spell check for you. Is that making it worse? Is
that a threat? Probably not,because actually it makes life easy because you
can concentrate on the creative process anduse the tool to enhance that so that
you can really lift it over andabove. That's how I see things on
(11:18):
the creative side. I think thelower level jobs, that's a really interesting
one. If we look at thingslike accountancy is a great one. Isn't
it that artificial intelligence is already takingaccountancy jobs ordered jobs. A lot of
the grunt of doing an external orderevery year if you're an accountant, can
now be dealt with by artificial intelligence, looking for fraud, looking for duplication,
looking for mistakes in ledgers and journalsthat are posted. And again,
(11:41):
I think that's more about saying,actually, this creates the capacity, and
those people who might have done thoselower level jobs, they then need to
we need to retrain them to beable to use the artificial intelligence. But
I just wondered about how useful internshipsand apprenticeships might be. And there's an
acceptance when you're doing those actually thatyou're not that productive, And there's a
(12:03):
recognition when you do an apprenticeship thatused to be a sort of scale.
In year one, perhaps you're onethird as productive as a fully competent person,
and in year two, perhaps youare halfway there or two thirsdy,
and by year three perhaps you're almostat full capacity for productivity. And internships
very similar often done unpaid in manyareas because the non productive nature. And
(12:24):
I just wonder about the reset andrethinking of some of these roles that perhaps
need an element of recognition for maybenot as productive in the first couple of
years, that acceptance perhaps rather thanevery role needs to be fully productive,
one hundred percent competent and able todeliver on the bottom line. And I
just wonder about that as we gointo this realm of perhaps some of those
(12:48):
lower level skills not being as necessary. Yeah. No, that's a really
interesting observation, and I think it'ssomething that we probably do need to tackle
making sure that employers are aware of. Is that's normal and there's nothing wrong
with that. But the new peoplein the organization can bring a different perspective,
and particularly if we're talking about youngerpeople from sixteen upwards, actually they
(13:11):
may not be able to do theskilled bit of the job, but they
will have a different way of thinking. And actually, if we as educators
and employers use that really effectively,they could help improve productivity in a business
because you know, the fact thatwe've always done something doesn't mean that we
should keep doing it. And Ialways say to colleagues who come into us
(13:35):
work for us, who are new, You've got this great opportunity things that
we no longer see coming in,bright eyed and fresh face into a business
or an organization. And sometimes it'sreally simple stuff. It's just why are
you doing this? Stop doing it? No one's reading that report and no
one's looking at that. That pieceof work makes no impact. And we
need to start talking about impact,don't we. And it's not all about
or they can do with this manywidgets every single day, it's actually what
(13:58):
difference? What impact are they making? And I think that's what we should
be encouraging. And yeah, acceptingthat it takes a while to get fully
productive, yeah, I think that'scritical. And Kurt, you explained it
quite clearly as well, is thatif AI is replacing jobs, we know
the kinds of jobs it's going toreplace, the easier ones, the lower
(14:18):
level ones than the entry ones.Okay, great for productivity, not great
for college leaders and graduates who suddenlyhave found the first run of the ladder
has gone disappeared, so now you'vegot to jump two rungs. So I
think Lawrence, to your point there, it's not about necessarily just trying to
get them to jump those two runs. It's to reframe the question, say,
(14:39):
actually, it's not just about productivityand how many widgets per hour.
They will bring something different to yourorganization and that's what you're replaced in the
run with, rather than just tryingto have AI and then more higher skilled
people. That's really nicely said Richard. And I think I've got an example
whereas a young individual who's twenty three, who's just gone in to a very
(15:01):
long established IT local IT company asa director at twenty three. The other
director is probably another twenty years older, and they've been running the company for
a while, but that they area really powerful team because this young person's
gone in with actually great behaviors,to be fair, really great behaviors,
but also some fantastic knowledge and highlydeveloped technical skills, some of which he's
(15:24):
got through the college through other ways, but it's got really clear view and
bringing new opportunities to that company intech. Cybersecurity is one to begin with.
And I just think that we shouldn'tsay somebody is eighteen, twenty three
thirty, they're too young to beable to make a difference in business.
So I think we have to startthinking people can have an impact in business,
(15:48):
whether it's on productivity or the waythat a business does things, because
you're going to have to change andhaving a diverse workforce, having a range
of ages, those with experience maybejust need to take a bit more time
on that because at this risk,those who've got these new innovative ideas and
lots of energy get ca Let's dothis because if we get that balancing and
the behaviors across the organization and theculture, if we can help as a
(16:12):
college, if we can help buildthose workforces in that way, hopefully we're
going to see a really fantastic,exciting economy of the future. People feeling
valued, prosperous, making a differenceas well as earning a good living and
feeling fulfilled. I'm guessing in anarea like Devon, we're actually I suppose
(16:33):
the beauty of the internet, thetools we're working on right now. You
can live anywhere in pretty much workonline and in a way that perhaps you
couldn't before. So many more opportunities, I'm sure for people to explore different
roles that they could have never hadthat opportunity before. Yeah. Absolutely,
I live in a little fishing villagenot far from here and I can get
(16:53):
a full fiber five hundred megabits.How fantastic is that? So? Yeah,
you can get far last access online. You can work in all sorts
of different places. People travel maybea day or two a week to go
and do something more physically, butspend the rest of the time they can
do it in a brilliant pace.Lucky you if that's the case. But
(17:14):
that's not just what you've done,because you've also been highly focused on a
very specialized area as well, whichis in the photonics industry. And just
looking at some of the information,I think you've raised over half a million
pounds in corporate funding. You're producinggraduates where the average salary in this area
is sixty seven percent higher than othersectors around the country. I wondered what
(17:36):
sort of words you'd have for otherpeople in the sector about that the potential
of really niching down on a sectorand getting known for something like that.
What have been some of the lessonsand experiences that you've had in doing that?
Wow? And that's a great question, Richard. I think what we've
learned from that is that actually thefirst thing is to work really closely with
the employers to find out what itis they really need and to understand their
(17:59):
sector and their markets and their business. And photonics is an interesting one because
they're all really quite different and mentionedclusters. There's five or six clusters around
the country of significance, of whichToll Bay is one, but they will
do slightly different things. We hadto get to know the cluster. But
that could be in health, itcould be in construction, being really clear
on what is that specialism, andthen it's working with them and taking a
(18:25):
long view. So I would sayit probably took us ten years to convince
the photonic sector that actually an FEcollege could really meet their needs because traditionally
they'd gone to red Brick Russell Groupuniversities for computer science, physics or maths
grads and that was great. Thesewere great intelligent young people. But the
first thing they had to do wasto train them how to do the job
(18:45):
in the business. And the secondthing they had to do was try and
keep hold of them because once theywere trained to do the job, they
had these amazing skill set, greatqualifications they could take anywhere around the world.
So we said, let us helpyou grow local talent. And that
way, if we take them throughan apprenticeship route, for example, we
build the qualifications with you. Thesewill be really loyal people. But they
(19:07):
will do exactly how they will workin the way you want them to work.
They will be part of You'll havethe right culture and actually and they'll
live locally so they won't be necessarilylooking to go away. Of course we
want them to progress. But youtalk about the salaries. The average salary
in South Devon is probably in theregion about twenty five thousand pounds. It's
a bit lower than the national twentyfive thousand. Jobs. Of the fifty
one thousand people that work in justTorbay as parts of South Devon are in
(19:33):
the hospitality and tourism sector, whichis a phenomenal sector generating halfwa billion pounds
a year for us in South Devon, but there are twelve hundred to fifteen
hundred people generating one hundred million andearning an average salary of forty to fifty
thousand a years. Find those opportunitiesthat are going to really help your local
economy and talk to the key players. For us, it's health. For
(19:53):
us, it's construction, and it'salso photonics, a marine as well as
is really exciting that you've teed upmy next question perfectly because what's the challenge
there? Because we've heard this fromother principles and CEOs that like you,
they recognize the need to develop verytechnical people for our future. And if
you don't believe me on this,I'm talking to our listeners. Now go
(20:15):
on to chat GPT and say whichjobs are at risk and get a list,
And then say which jobs are goingto be created and get a list
and look at the difference. Theyare not the same level of jobs,
right, so we know we've gota more skilled future needed. You were
telling us about the photonics industry andhow they're working in some of the latest
working in fiber optics, for band, in connective technologies, in space technologies,
(20:37):
and now you've mentioned marine and health. These are phenomenal, but how
do you balance that as a leaderin your college, knowing that some people
need that incredibly high level of technicaldevelopment, but others are still going to
be providing the core services and skillsinto business and society, and in many
respects nothing will change, I suppose. My question is is there a danger
(20:57):
of getting carried away with the excitingstuff and leaving others behind and knowing that
the future needs to evolve everybody,not just the ones who are going to
make the headlines. Yeah, that'sa really important point or two. Thank
you. We've got a very broadoffer at the college we are. We
see ourselves as very inclusive because wedo have some real challenges in South Devon,
(21:18):
many coastal towns and communities do,so we have to meet those and
then we've got those extremes of greatopportunities as well. We see our job
to take young people and adults fromperhaps of a place where they've had more
challenges in their life and help themget those great jobs. But you're right,
it's really very easy to see somethingvery shiny and really exciting and to
(21:42):
forget about your core, and sowe take a balanced view of that and
we make sure that we do everythingin balance. We never forget who we're
here to serve, which is ourcommunity of South Devon. So when I
talk regionally, when I talk nationally, we always focus first and foremost on
tour By, so because that's ourcommunity. So you have to pick and
(22:03):
choose what works for you. Youhave to build really solid relationships with the
people that can help you achieve that. So for us, it's very much
the employers and the stakeholders that sitaround them, the local authorities, the
economic development partners, the business representativebodies, and working with them help us
to shape that and to focus onwhat's important. So rather than chasing lots
(22:26):
of things, we're chasing one ortwo that we know that we can do
really well. If we can't doit really well, then we won't do
it. And that's it's actually harderto say no. I've had to learn
as a principal and CEO to sayno more than I say yes, increasingly
because exactly as you're saying, youcan take your eye off the ball and
chase things and something else gives.That's actually more important because that's your kind
(22:51):
of core business lawrence. You're pickingstudents up at fourteen fifteen, you're taking
people all the way to finishing theirbachelors, which is a phenomenal scope.
And you've talked about the range ofinclusive curriculum and skills that you want to
develop along with someone the most hightech skills that we're seeing in the UK
and beyond. So I'm in aweof what you're doing. It's phenomenal and
(23:12):
I'm so happy that we've had thetime to talk with you about it a
little bit more and to understand whereartificial intelligence fits into that, both now
and in the future. And Ireally hope that perhaps you'd come and see
us again on the show in thefuture and we can learn more about how
it's going. Thanks for having me. I really enjoyed it, and yeah,
I'd love to come back if there'san interest in a couple of years
time to see how we're getting on, what difference we're making. Let me
(23:33):
know. It's been absolutely fascinating,Lawrence, So thank you very much for
coming on.
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