December 4, 2023 • 29 mins
Series: Artificial Intelligence, Leadership and the Future of Further Education
With:
Richard Foster-Fletcher, Executive Chair, MKAI.org
Kurt Hintz, Executive Principal, Capital City College Group
Debra Gray MBE, Principal and CEO, Hull College
Episode 7:
Transforming Educational Paradigms for the AI Era
Episode Overview:
OverviewIn an insightful discussion with Debra Gray, this episode of "AI, Leadership and the Future of FE" dives into Hull College's journey of digital transformation and the broader implications of AI in education. Hosted by Richard Foster-Fletcher and Kurt Hintz, the conversation spans from digital innovation to the cultural shift required in embracing technology in education.
Digital Transformation and AI Integration at Hull College:
Debra Gray outlines the significant digital transformation at Hull College, detailing the strategies employed to enhance digital infrastructure across departments. This transformation is centred around supporting learners and preparing them for future roles in various industries, including engineering. The conversation also sheds light on how AI tools, such as Chat GPT, are being embraced as productivity tools rather than feared, marking a significant shift in educational approaches.
AI Academy and Future-Proofing Students:
A key focus of the discussion is the implementation of Hull College's AI Academy, designed for staff training and student programs. Debra illustrates how AI is utilised in various areas like marketing, report writing, and safeguarding, enhancing the overall educational experience. This approach aligns with the broader goal of future-proofing students, equipping them with digital skills that are increasingly sought after in the job market.
Cultural Shifts and Efficiency Gains:
The episode also explores the necessary cultural change among educators in adapting to digital advancements. Debra discusses her approach to encouraging this shift, emphasising the potential of AI to enhance efficiency. She highlights tools like Teacher Matic, which have revolutionised resource generation, allowing teachers more time to engage with students.
Responding to the Evolving Job Market:
The discussion with Kurt brings to the forefront the adaptability and responsiveness required in skills development amidst AI advancements. They deliberate on the historical context of job transformations due to industrial revolutions, underscoring the importance of adapting education to meet these evolving demands.
Collaboration and Knowledge Sharing:
A recurring theme in the episode is the necessity for increased collaboration and knowledge sharing within the further education sector. The discussion concludes with an emphasis on the importance of maintaining a student-centric approach in education, ensuring alignment with industry needs and fostering entrepreneurial and problem-solving skills among students. This approach, facilitated by AI tools like Chat GPT, is crucial in preparing students for a dynamic job market and fostering collaboration in the education sector.
This episode serves as a comprehensive exploration of how digital transformation, spearheaded by forward-thinking leaders like Debra Gray, is reshaping the educational landscape, highlighting the need for flexibility, collaboration, and student-centric strategies in further education.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-boundless-podcast--4077400/support.
With:
Richard Foster-Fletcher, Executive Chair, MKAI.org
Kurt Hintz, Executive Principal, Capital City College Group
Debra Gray MBE, Principal and CEO, Hull College
Episode 7:
Transforming Educational Paradigms for the AI Era
Episode Overview:
OverviewIn an insightful discussion with Debra Gray, this episode of "AI, Leadership and the Future of FE" dives into Hull College's journey of digital transformation and the broader implications of AI in education. Hosted by Richard Foster-Fletcher and Kurt Hintz, the conversation spans from digital innovation to the cultural shift required in embracing technology in education.
Digital Transformation and AI Integration at Hull College:
Debra Gray outlines the significant digital transformation at Hull College, detailing the strategies employed to enhance digital infrastructure across departments. This transformation is centred around supporting learners and preparing them for future roles in various industries, including engineering. The conversation also sheds light on how AI tools, such as Chat GPT, are being embraced as productivity tools rather than feared, marking a significant shift in educational approaches.
AI Academy and Future-Proofing Students:
A key focus of the discussion is the implementation of Hull College's AI Academy, designed for staff training and student programs. Debra illustrates how AI is utilised in various areas like marketing, report writing, and safeguarding, enhancing the overall educational experience. This approach aligns with the broader goal of future-proofing students, equipping them with digital skills that are increasingly sought after in the job market.
Cultural Shifts and Efficiency Gains:
The episode also explores the necessary cultural change among educators in adapting to digital advancements. Debra discusses her approach to encouraging this shift, emphasising the potential of AI to enhance efficiency. She highlights tools like Teacher Matic, which have revolutionised resource generation, allowing teachers more time to engage with students.
Responding to the Evolving Job Market:
The discussion with Kurt brings to the forefront the adaptability and responsiveness required in skills development amidst AI advancements. They deliberate on the historical context of job transformations due to industrial revolutions, underscoring the importance of adapting education to meet these evolving demands.
Collaboration and Knowledge Sharing:
A recurring theme in the episode is the necessity for increased collaboration and knowledge sharing within the further education sector. The discussion concludes with an emphasis on the importance of maintaining a student-centric approach in education, ensuring alignment with industry needs and fostering entrepreneurial and problem-solving skills among students. This approach, facilitated by AI tools like Chat GPT, is crucial in preparing students for a dynamic job market and fostering collaboration in the education sector.
This episode serves as a comprehensive exploration of how digital transformation, spearheaded by forward-thinking leaders like Debra Gray, is reshaping the educational landscape, highlighting the need for flexibility, collaboration, and student-centric strategies in further education.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-boundless-podcast--4077400/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
It is great to be back withmy wingman, my co pilots cut Hens
as we're still on this great topicabout AI leadership and the future of further
education. Kurt, it's great tosee you again. Great to see you
again, Richard, and welcome Dibrah. Absolute pleasure to be here. Thank
you for having me. Dev I'mso excited by this because the first thing
(00:25):
you said is that you are ahuge digital optimist. And I think we've
had some episodes on this series alreadywhere we've had some deep questions and some
doubts. So I'm really looking forwardtoday where we grabbed this AI bull by
the horns basically, and we seewhere can we take it to and where's
it going to go? And I'mexcited to get into this. Do you
want to just give us a littlebit more about your background, den Bridge,
(00:46):
so we know the person that we'respeaking with a little bit more context,
and then let's dive into some ofthe good stuff. So I'm the
principal and CEO of Whole College.I came here eighteen months ago and this
is not my first gig asciple.I served nine years in another college and
I love technology through and through.I am, in fact a massive digital
(01:07):
optimist. I picked up my firstcomputer game in the late seventies. I
played pong at my uncle's house andI haven't put computers down since I didn't
ever go into computing. My backgroundis actually criminal justice, so I have
a master's degree in criminal justice andwas a public service teacher for a very
very long time and adored every secondof it. But I was always the
(01:30):
digital champion in those teams, alwayslooking for the next bit of kit to
use, next bit of software todeploy, anything that would make a difference
to the life of my staff andmy students. I would have a play
with debris. Are interest in ethics, justice, technology and the future.
Welcome to the fellowship, found brethren. This is great. You were bought
(01:53):
in at a time of change andtransformation in Hull College. How much of
that, on your mind was aboutdigital transformation that was needed alongside a cultural
transformation. The digital component was critical, but it wasn't the only component at
the time. So whole college hashad quite a challenging decade. And when
(02:13):
I came in, I think Iwas probably the eighth principle in three years,
so that's quite a challenge. Theculture here was damaged, there's no
point denying that. And our staffhad been through a huge amount of turmoil.
There was a lack of trust betweensenior management and staff, and some
of the interims who'd been in hadmade great strides in rectifying that. They'd
(02:36):
built a foundation that I could thenbuild our structures on top of. We
were very significantly behind the curve becauseof that disruption. So if you are
a college in intervention or that hasbeen through very significant hardship, the temptation
is to duck and cover. It'snot to winnovate, it's not to transform,
it's not to change. It's toprotect what you can and deal with
(02:59):
what you can't. It took alot of the agency away from our staff
teams. They didn't really innovate intheir space, and I don't blame them.
So when our team came in andI need to emphasize the strength of
the team. This is not aboutme and my digital aspirations. The team
(03:21):
at Hull College, our Hull Raisersare spectacular. We knew we had to
move very quickly to transform the digitalinfrastructure, to enable everything that's out on
top of it to be quick,slick, clean, and lean. We
started really with the strategy because that'swhere everything comes from. So what did
we want for our organization? Whatdoes it look like in two years,
(03:44):
in three years, in five years, And we knew we wanted to be
digitally enabled top to bottom every department, academic support, curriculum support, student
support, and our learners as well. When you do something like this,
it's not sectional, and how Idescribe it is when you've got an organization
that's been skating on thin ice.You can't afford to put too much pressure
(04:10):
in any one spot because you'll breakit. So if you imagine the big
polar bear, which actually scrapes hisbelly distributing his way on the ice as
he crawls through, we had tokind of even the pressure, and that's
what you do when you deploy everythingevenly. So we deployed very different things,
but we deployed in every area Ineed to provide to the Humber region,
(04:32):
which is an incredibly deprived region butan incredibly rich region culturally and industrially,
a pipeline that means no one hasto come from outside the area to
get these jobs. We're not necessarilyimporting specialist labor for turbines or for hydrogen
pipelines. Our people can take thesejobs, and in order to do that,
(04:56):
you've got to be absolutely the topof your game. Because hydrogen wor
wa for nobody. The turbines willwait for nobody. Micro nuclear waits for
nobody. So we had to beon it and on it quickly. Amazing,
and just this last eighteen maybe twelvemonths, I suppose where we're sort
of I guess we've all been takenaback by this repid innovation of AI.
Suddenly. I suppose the big launchof CHETGBT and what its capabilities were was
(05:20):
just extraordinary. I think everybody gota bit of a fright. And so
when they came how did you usethat? How did you think about it?
Was there a surprise? Was itjust another way of being just adding
to what you were doing? Howdid you approach that? Well, we've
been tracking those developments for several yearsbefore this point, because tracking technology trends
(05:42):
is part of being ready for thetwenty first century and everything it brings.
So we've always horizon scanned up toa decade in advance. So it didn't
really catch us by surprise, anda lot of our staff team were early
adopters. So I've used chat GPT, Claude two anthropics version, We've used
We've used Microsoft Copilot a number ofdifferent AIS and it wasn't scary. I
(06:05):
love it. I genuinely think thisis a changing point for us. AI
is just a tool. Whenever arewe scared of tools? When is a
mechanic scared of a new spanner?Why would we think this is in any
way scary? This is the moralpanics I think that surround some AI discussions
(06:26):
I don't think are well founded.In the same way that in the nineteen
sixties the debate about mods and rockersbeing a moral panic was well founded,
or the debate that cinema in thenineteen twenties would corrupt the youth. These
things tend not to pan out ina historical context, and I think the
same is true of AI. Yeah. Absolutely. And then looking at here,
(06:49):
do you talk about their horizon scanningat the moment and they're sort of
looking teen as a hid And what'syour thoughts in on preparing people for the
roles they might go into. Andof course the context here is that if
you are into marketing and working ina marketing job now I mean not using
AI tools to support your role ifprobably adding one third as efficient and productive
(07:09):
as your coworkers. So just thinkingabout the curriculum, the bidding of the
tools, how are you thinking about? How are you bidding at? What
are your considerations in their respect?So we build digital in all its forms
as a golden thread through all ofour curriculum. And it isn't just AI,
which is one of a number oftechnologies. So in engineering you might
(07:29):
find us talking about autonomous shipping orelectric planes that are in development. Now
it's future technology in all its forms, of which AI is one strand and
an incredibly useful strand when you're busylike we are, we build it in
because as a productivity tool at themoment, it's unparalleled the work it can
(07:53):
chomp through with guidance and support andthe right prompt Engineering has certainly saved me
weeks of work, my staff teamweeks of work. It saves our teachers
weeks of work, and it savesour students weeks of work as well.
And by the time our students gointo industry, it will be ubiqutous.
So why would we not train themfrom the ground up how to use and
(08:13):
deploy it to best effect. Ourstudents are the first generation to have the
world in their pocket, coupled withan AI digital assistant who will explain it
to them. How do we notsee that as the most incredible opportunity in
education we've ever seen. So canyou take us through some of the areas
(08:33):
in perhaps the support services areas that'dbe dealing with what you've thought about how
you've managed to improve those. Icertainly will. So one of the things
we've got is an AI academy forour staff. So our staff meet collectively
and they discussed the new AI toolsthey've found. So for our marketing team,
(08:54):
for example, they demonstrated mid journeyand day to the rest of the
team, which means then the creativeteam can go back to their students to
say have you seen this? Orit can be used in our local marketing
brands because we run a different setof brands in the house. It saves
us going out for design work.It writes student reports that can be personalized.
(09:20):
It writes some of our safeguarding materials. So if you say to Claude
two, for example, I needto generate a series of really informative leaflets
on all of the top twenty fivekey safeguarding issues in the Humber in a
way that can be understood by sixteenyear olds with learning difficulties. It will
do it for me. We've takenthe AI Academy also to students, so
(09:41):
three times a year we have afull student CPD week so they're off timetable
and we do all of the amazingwrap around things so employers will come in
to see them. They'll have masterclasses, we will teach them about AI,
we'll teach them about the for kindsof AI. How to be safe clearly
is a critical issue, but thoseweeks are for students to pursue their interests,
(10:09):
their goals, widen their horizons.And when you operate in an area
like call so we serve the fourthmost deprived local authority in England, those
opportunities aren't always readily available outside ofthe college. You mentioned prompt engineering earlier
on what's you're thinking from as aleader in that particular area of prompt engineering
(10:31):
into it's something that you're really hittingtowards full steam. Is it something that
you're getting support from industry? Ninetysix percent of all the businesses we deal
with are SMEs and micro businesses,so they are not often up to date
with technology. They are busy runningtheir day to day operations. They're trying
to find individuals to fill skills.Perhaps they're trying to get the bottom line
(10:52):
in they don't always horizon scan.They look to us for that, which
is why we take our AI wroteShow and Future Technology Roadshow out to them
in their workplace so that we canhelp them see the benefits for their business
to increase their productivity. Because ofcourse, if they're successful, the city
is successful. And if the cityis successful, there are more jobs for
(11:15):
my learners, which is a hugeknock on effect. So in terms of
prompt engineering, we have a directorand exec director of Digital Transformation who is
superb who's taught me how to promptengineer and is teaching the rest of the
staff how to prompt engineer and wethen build those things as part of the
curriculum. So it's a lovely bitof bite sized learning. I'm loving this
(11:37):
thought of that AI roadshow. Canyou tell me more about that work?
How do you bring students to life? And there we've got two strands of
this. There's the internal strand,which is for our own staff and our
own students. And there's the externalstrand where we go to businesses and we
show them AI how it can transformwhat they do. And the external strand.
We've been to about forty five businesseslocally, some large, some small,
(12:01):
and some trade bodies like chambers,local business improvement district bodies. So
we show them the power of thetechnology. So we break out chat GPT
four or claud to two or whateverwe choose at the time, and we
say, what's the problem you needsolvent, what's the job that you've never
(12:22):
got around to, how do youwrite a policy on X, y or
z? And we show them howthis technology, this tool in seconds can
take something off their plate and producesomething potentially better than they could have done
by spending three hours on it.I guess thinking about this and the development
of the students and what they're actuallygetting as you see it, you know
(12:43):
you've got really large number of smallto mediums who really aren't probably engaging.
Why haven't got the time to engage? I just wonder how you really future
proofing students for the future of thesejobs and actually probably making them super useful
for the small to mediums. Isit leading to actively students being heavily sought
out for going into those jobs wherethey've got those skills that the employees say,
(13:05):
you know what I need to importthe skill into my business. And
yes, you might be seventeen,but you've got everything I need. We
have excellent destinations and our apprentices inparticular often step up to a greater role
or a role with greater responsibilities.So we certainly see that starting to track
through now. But I think themore we can do with our business community
(13:26):
to have them understand and value ofthese tools and the value these youngsters can
bring, the better. But themajority of our students are adults. It
isn't about a particular bit of proprietarytechnology. It's about using everything that is
available and deploying it in the rightcontext. It's not just technology for technology's
(13:48):
sake. Still, we find outthat the baseline our digital skill set in
our staff base is usually much lowerthan we think it is. How have
you developed there? Have you've seena distinct shift there for all change towards
digitization and the way people think aboutit. Has that gone really well?
Or have you still got pockets whoare hips being even more isolated by this
(14:09):
because they're not willing to engage orfinding it difficult, and how have you
doubt. We take a relatively lassa fair approach because teachers are professionals and
I respect our teachers. I wasfifteen years a teacher, and I'm not
going to go into any room andtell a teacher how to do that job
because if they're trained on their experience, that's what I pay them for.
(14:30):
So we don't force this. I'venever been in the business of force in
my teachers to do anything. Wepay them for their expertise and I want
them to be autonomous relatively speaking,in that space. It's about making a
compelling case, but leaving it forthe professional themselves to make the decision on
Yeah. Indeed, so showing themthe tools, giving them some enablers initially
(14:52):
and then go to it. Andit's amazing. I've we've seen the same
thing as all of the best technology, the are ways of using that This
prompts have all come from the teachers. Actually, if you've got a favorite
one that's come up recently at all, or a nichronism, or to something
that's come up from the ground.But I'm a big fan of teacher Matic.
So teacher Matic is a platform that'sdesigned to help teaching stuff online,
(15:15):
teaching staff produce resources and administration better. So sometimes as a principle, you
have to roll the sleeves up.You get a project in, there's nobody
else to do it. You're theone in the hot seat. And I
had to write a unit on sustainabilityfor a foundation degree, which is part
of a project. So we'd alreadygot a number of platforms in teacher based
(15:37):
ais to pilot because I like toplay with a number of different things with
staff and then we'll go with theone they like the best or that works
for them. And so I neededto generate this unit absolutely from scratch.
So I plugged into teacher Matic allof the things I knew it needed to
do from my own expertise, andI said, okay, give me a
first iteration. Within ten seconds,I had a scheme of work. I
(16:00):
had twelve sets of lesson plans,I had all the questions, I had
activities for class, I had mypresentations, and then what I needed to
do with that is apply my expertiseto it. But I didn't have any
fear of a blank page. Iwasn't starting from scratch, and it was
easier to augment than it was tocreate. So what that did for me
(16:21):
was probably saved me about a weekand a half's time. And that is
a thing of beauty. And ifyou times that by however many units a
typical teacher in a further education collegewill be responsible for, it makes their
life easier. And I know thereis some concern, certainly from colleagues that
I've spoken to, Well, isthis the end of the teacher? Then?
(16:41):
Well, not in a million years, is it the end of the
teacher. We have persisted since wetaught flint napping to each other in previsue.
We are the custodians of an incrediblyrich skills transmission system which will not
be broken by AI. It willmake our lives easier. It will enable
us to spend more time with thestudents. And that's why we come into
(17:04):
the job. We don't come intoit for the administration. No, exactly
that. It's really magic, isn'tit. And I just sort of wonder
about, therefore, how extraordinarily adaptablewe can be in responsive to the needs
of industry. It makes us evenmore responsible. The idea about the jobs
is an interesting one I'd love toexplore with you both briefly, because there's
(17:26):
people in two camps on there peoplethat are worried about the loss of jobs
from AI, and you can understandwhy. I mean, we listened to
Deborah talking about productivity gains, beingmore efficient, being more effective. Well,
naturally you'd think the companies can domore with less when it comes to
people. On the other hand,that I spoke to a law firm earlier
on, they're not in the leastbit worried. They said, well,
(17:48):
actually, people's legal budgets are goingto stay the same, so they'll be
able to acquire more services and differentservices. But we don't anticipate any loss
in value. But we may bedoing slightly different things. And what he
pointed to was something called the Jevonsparadox, and the Jevons paradox states that
in the long term, and increasein efficiency in resource use will generate an
(18:11):
increase in resource consumption rather than adecrease. So I think the challenge here,
if I'm paraphrasing you slightly here,Debra, is that we can't necessarily
name the jobs that we see comingin the future. People. We can't
even imagine them in some senses,and therefore it's easy to think, well,
if we can't think what they are, it's hard to know what they'll
be. But actually, what theGevans paradox describing here is that the efficiency
(18:36):
in itself increases the demand. AndI guess that's the leap of faith that
you're taking here, Deborah. Couldyou talk a little bit more about why
you believe that to be the case. The pattern of jobs over the next
fifty years, because we're talking herelong term transformation as well as rapid and
urgent transformation now, will be netjob losses and net job gains. And
(18:57):
it's not a matter of life losing, it's a matter of changing. The
question really for me, and thisis unresolved in the academic literature, is
what pattern that will take. Becausein an ideal world, what you'd want
is a smooth transition, You wouldwant as many jobs created as decline.
(19:17):
We don't always live in an idealworld, so I think it's a legitimate
concern that they may be uneven transferand over the next ten to fifteen years,
perhaps even longer term. But inevery industrial revolution there has been up
until this point, there has alwaysbeen ultimately net job gain, and none
of those jobs could have been predictedat the very start of that revolution.
(19:41):
So we're very much in uncharted territory, but we're not without guidance. So
we know people will always need peopleand people's services will always be strong.
Every service give or take we havenow is in the process of becoming automated
in one way or another. Isinevitable. Even before the launch of AI
(20:02):
platforms, automation has been a bigrisk for the last fifteen years. We've
been adapting and moving through that.So when we evaluate our curriculum, we
evaluate what the risk of automation isin that particular sector, so that we
know how to augment the curriculum sothat we're not delivering one trick permonies to
industry. The key thing for meis what's the art of the possible?
(20:26):
How can we be excited about itand not frightened of it. I'm guessing
that, like me, you're expectingthat many, many more adults will need
to come back to us to continuetheir training, and probably more than ever
before. In that you know,you mentioned that equally you do a lot
of adults as we do. There'sa huge amount of adult provision. Are
you expecting to have to do alot more for those who are retraining effectively
(20:48):
or upgrading your training? I hearda step the other day that's from a
tip role. Actually, the shelflife of the skills that you learn when
you go through a qualification is nomore than four years. You're absolutely right,
And the shelf life of qualifications issomething that vexes me greatly because we
don't keep up to date with movements. The process for a new qualification to
go through off qual is heinously long. And the question for me, as
(21:12):
always well as institutions, why don'twe have awarding powers in our own rights
universities do, whereas ours in thefe sector, we can write and validate
qualifications with every bit. There's muchcredibility as our HI colleagues can, and
we're not allowed that power. Andyou're absolutely right in your earlier comment.
We can turn on a dime withsome of this because we are directly articulated
(21:36):
to our employer partners when they saythey want we can deliver fast. So
when adults come back to us whenthey want to retrain, when they need
to up skill, or when theirindustry is dying and a new industry is
being birthed, how can we helpthem adapt? So we're already starting to
plan for some of those things now. Now government initiatives like boot camps and
(21:56):
all of those things, they're usefulto a point. They help with immediate
skills needs. And I think somethingthat's not well known about colleges when we
speak about skills gaps is if youwant a brand new plumber, it's going
to take me two years to trainthem. You can't click your fingers and
train a plumber. It takes time. So immediacy of skills needs for young
(22:18):
people sometimes isn't there. But wecan move much much faster with adults because
they often come towards with base levelskills, skills that can be transferred,
and skills that can be adapted.So an observation I had in one college
group that I won't name it justthis moment, is there seem to be
some lack of encouragement for entrepreneurialism.And what I saw is that they were
(22:40):
very happy to think about the rootsinto higher education apprentices that students had brilliant
They're very happy to think about thegreat jobs that the students could have.
But entrepreneurism. The vibe I wasgetting is that they were saying to the
students, you have to have agreat idea to go and be an entrepreneur,
and I fundamentally disagree with that.I think you need to get out
there and need to solve problems.And I think college is also particularly with
(23:02):
the IoTs that come through offer studentsare rout into entrepreneurism without necessarily knowing where
they will end up or what brilliantidea they have. I think it's a
great point. I don't want tojust produce workers. I want to produce
work creators as well. I don'twant to produce employees. I want to
produce employers at the end of ourjourney. And the benefit, particularly for
(23:26):
some of our young learners, isthey have the opportunity now of a portfolio
career. They can try five orsix different disciplines, and they should.
In my opinion, when I wasyoung, you chose a career and you
broadly stuck to it. I thinkit's an incredibly exciting time because you innovate
by breadth. So if you knowan awful lot about multiple different industries,
(23:49):
you can see how the interlink interweveninterconnect, which gives your problem solving ability
a huge boost. When you onlyknow one discipline, that's all you know.
So I can't draw from other sectorsnecessarily to enhance my innovation or my
entrepreneurialism. But if I've got atoolkit from six different disciplines, I'm unbeatable.
(24:10):
So I think there is something aboutusing youth as an opportunity to explore
an experiment. But I think forsome of our learners they simply need to
pay the bills, and we haveto be very realistic about what that means
and how that can how we canbuild entrepreneurial spirit into that as well.
I guess you're also pushing the pointthat you've got to support now and if
(24:33):
you wanted to, you know,maybe it's a side hussle, but to
create an application or a piece ofsoftware that did something, we know now
that the coding support from CHECHPT andothers is substantial in a way that just
didn't exist a year ago. Areyou spreading awareness about those opportunities to innovate
in ways like that? Yeah,But I think our learners are actually very
(24:55):
clued into that side bustle affair.We see all the time students who've got
great ideas and are playing around withit, often in the social media space
and sometimes in the coding space.But I think young people as a whole
are probably more entrepreneurial than we sometimesgive them credit for. They've had to
solve an immense amount of problems toget to where they are. Consider just
(25:17):
the pandemic alone. You know thatto navigate things that at that age I
never had to navigate. They operatein an environment which is less stable in
some respects more politically charged, wherethey are faced with difficult choices every time
they leave their front door, andby and large they navigate it with real
(25:37):
grace. Hey, I'm really keenalso to explore just from a point of
view of leadership and for the educationin the technology and the vast changes.
What's your thoughts on how we nowsort of how we go forward as a
sector from a point of view ofmaking sure we've got the collaboration and the
activities that genuinely we need probably asa sector to really advance and take those
(26:00):
steps forwards. Are there some morerecent channels that you think are rectivated.
I recognize that you lead a significantCPD opportunity for people all around the UK
effectively in education. But what more, how might we do it better?
What's your thoughts here? I thinkwe need to respect the fact that there
will always be competition around the edgesbetween colleges, private training providers and other
(26:25):
independent providers of education. But Ifirmly believe we're stronger when we stand together.
I want everybody's learners to be successful. So if I've got something and
it has value, people can haveit. It's a gift. I think
that element of genuine collaboration, andI don't mean just colleges being friendly as
in a non competitive stance. Imean genuinely wanting to help someone else and
(26:49):
not feeling threatened by that just becausethey're ten miles down the road or wherever
they else. They are genuinely wantingthe best for every single learner, no
matter which door they walk through.So I wonder about if he and taking
that wider, what's the opportunity forus to genuinely use this technology in the
way that we are sharing collaborating dailyin the way that I've sort of talked
(27:11):
about across colleges and across perhaps eventhe UK, and sharing their experience and
skills, and I wonder what yourthoughts are on there. I haven't seen
that being done anywhere yet, butif you've got any examples, are we
hitting that direction? Do you thinkas it possible? I think we are
moving towards that. We're all inthat exploratory phase at the moment. Nobody's
(27:33):
got this button down because the technologyitself is not buttoned down. Every day
is an adventure. Every day issomething new, and I'm super excited about
that. I want to be ableto talk to people in other leadership positions
about it. But I don't justwant to talk to other leaders. I
want to talk to my cleaning staff. I want to talk to other people's
cleaning and hygiene staff, Well,how can this help with porterage? And
(27:55):
what can we do in HR?It? Really really good ideas for that
level of aboration come from anywhere withinan organization, and I think we are
often quite focused on rank. Youknow that there's the hierarchy. Principles speak
to principles and vice principals speak tovice principles. Well, is there a
forum? Is there something we cando where we get everybody with an interest
(28:17):
in AI together, because I wouldlove that. I don't know what the
answer to that is, though exactlyI was thinking the same thing, and
I just wondered whether you come acrossit or starting to think about it.
I'm really glad you're thinking the sameand I genuinely would love to see us
as educators be able to perform thereor think about it. Look, it's
been a fantastic Governor and speaking toDibbah of finding out what are you doing
(28:38):
there in Hull College. And Ilove the Hull Raisers, brilliant term and
thought and I'll certainly take them onhome. So thank you very much for
joining us at Southnoon. It's beenbrilliant having you. It's been an absolute pleasure.
It is great to be back withmy wingman, my co pilots cut Hens
as we're still on this great topicabout AI leadership and the future of further
education. Kurt, it's great tosee you again. Great to see you
again, Richard, and welcome Dibrah. Absolute pleasure to be here. Thank
you for having me. Dev I'mso excited by this because the first thing
(00:25):
you said is that you are ahuge digital optimist. And I think we've
had some episodes on this series alreadywhere we've had some deep questions and some
doubts. So I'm really looking forwardtoday where we grabbed this AI bull by
the horns basically, and we seewhere can we take it to and where's
it going to go? And I'mexcited to get into this. Do you
want to just give us a littlebit more about your background, den Bridge,
(00:46):
so we know the person that we'respeaking with a little bit more context,
and then let's dive into some ofthe good stuff. So I'm the
principal and CEO of Whole College.I came here eighteen months ago and this
is not my first gig asciple.I served nine years in another college and
I love technology through and through.I am, in fact a massive digital
(01:07):
optimist. I picked up my firstcomputer game in the late seventies. I
played pong at my uncle's house andI haven't put computers down since I didn't
ever go into computing. My backgroundis actually criminal justice, so I have
a master's degree in criminal justice andwas a public service teacher for a very
very long time and adored every secondof it. But I was always the
(01:30):
digital champion in those teams, alwayslooking for the next bit of kit to
use, next bit of software todeploy, anything that would make a difference
to the life of my staff andmy students. I would have a play
with debris. Are interest in ethics, justice, technology and the future.
Welcome to the fellowship, found brethren. This is great. You were bought
(01:53):
in at a time of change andtransformation in Hull College. How much of
that, on your mind was aboutdigital transformation that was needed alongside a cultural
transformation. The digital component was critical, but it wasn't the only component at
the time. So whole college hashad quite a challenging decade. And when
(02:13):
I came in, I think Iwas probably the eighth principle in three years,
so that's quite a challenge. Theculture here was damaged, there's no
point denying that. And our staffhad been through a huge amount of turmoil.
There was a lack of trust betweensenior management and staff, and some
of the interims who'd been in hadmade great strides in rectifying that. They'd
(02:36):
built a foundation that I could thenbuild our structures on top of. We
were very significantly behind the curve becauseof that disruption. So if you are
a college in intervention or that hasbeen through very significant hardship, the temptation
is to duck and cover. It'snot to winnovate, it's not to transform,
it's not to change. It's toprotect what you can and deal with
(02:59):
what you can't. It took alot of the agency away from our staff
teams. They didn't really innovate intheir space, and I don't blame them.
So when our team came in andI need to emphasize the strength of
the team. This is not aboutme and my digital aspirations. The team
(03:21):
at Hull College, our Hull Raisersare spectacular. We knew we had to
move very quickly to transform the digitalinfrastructure, to enable everything that's out on
top of it to be quick,slick, clean, and lean. We
started really with the strategy because that'swhere everything comes from. So what did
we want for our organization? Whatdoes it look like in two years,
(03:44):
in three years, in five years, And we knew we wanted to be
digitally enabled top to bottom every department, academic support, curriculum support, student
support, and our learners as well. When you do something like this,
it's not sectional, and how Idescribe it is when you've got an organization
that's been skating on thin ice.You can't afford to put too much pressure
(04:10):
in any one spot because you'll breakit. So if you imagine the big
polar bear, which actually scrapes hisbelly distributing his way on the ice as
he crawls through, we had tokind of even the pressure, and that's
what you do when you deploy everythingevenly. So we deployed very different things,
but we deployed in every area Ineed to provide to the Humber region,
(04:32):
which is an incredibly deprived region butan incredibly rich region culturally and industrially,
a pipeline that means no one hasto come from outside the area to
get these jobs. We're not necessarilyimporting specialist labor for turbines or for hydrogen
pipelines. Our people can take thesejobs, and in order to do that,
(04:56):
you've got to be absolutely the topof your game. Because hydrogen wor
wa for nobody. The turbines willwait for nobody. Micro nuclear waits for
nobody. So we had to beon it and on it quickly. Amazing,
and just this last eighteen maybe twelvemonths, I suppose where we're sort
of I guess we've all been takenaback by this repid innovation of AI.
Suddenly. I suppose the big launchof CHETGBT and what its capabilities were was
(05:20):
just extraordinary. I think everybody gota bit of a fright. And so
when they came how did you usethat? How did you think about it?
Was there a surprise? Was itjust another way of being just adding
to what you were doing? Howdid you approach that? Well, we've
been tracking those developments for several yearsbefore this point, because tracking technology trends
(05:42):
is part of being ready for thetwenty first century and everything it brings.
So we've always horizon scanned up toa decade in advance. So it didn't
really catch us by surprise, anda lot of our staff team were early
adopters. So I've used chat GPT, Claude two anthropics version, We've used
We've used Microsoft Copilot a number ofdifferent AIS and it wasn't scary. I
(06:05):
love it. I genuinely think thisis a changing point for us. AI
is just a tool. Whenever arewe scared of tools? When is a
mechanic scared of a new spanner?Why would we think this is in any
way scary? This is the moralpanics I think that surround some AI discussions
(06:26):
I don't think are well founded.In the same way that in the nineteen
sixties the debate about mods and rockersbeing a moral panic was well founded,
or the debate that cinema in thenineteen twenties would corrupt the youth. These
things tend not to pan out ina historical context, and I think the
same is true of AI. Yeah. Absolutely. And then looking at here,
(06:49):
do you talk about their horizon scanningat the moment and they're sort of
looking teen as a hid And what'syour thoughts in on preparing people for the
roles they might go into. Andof course the context here is that if
you are into marketing and working ina marketing job now I mean not using
AI tools to support your role ifprobably adding one third as efficient and productive
(07:09):
as your coworkers. So just thinkingabout the curriculum, the bidding of the
tools, how are you thinking about? How are you bidding at? What
are your considerations in their respect?So we build digital in all its forms
as a golden thread through all ofour curriculum. And it isn't just AI,
which is one of a number oftechnologies. So in engineering you might
(07:29):
find us talking about autonomous shipping orelectric planes that are in development. Now
it's future technology in all its forms, of which AI is one strand and
an incredibly useful strand when you're busylike we are, we build it in
because as a productivity tool at themoment, it's unparalleled the work it can
(07:53):
chomp through with guidance and support andthe right prompt Engineering has certainly saved me
weeks of work, my staff teamweeks of work. It saves our teachers
weeks of work, and it savesour students weeks of work as well.
And by the time our students gointo industry, it will be ubiqutous.
So why would we not train themfrom the ground up how to use and
(08:13):
deploy it to best effect. Ourstudents are the first generation to have the
world in their pocket, coupled withan AI digital assistant who will explain it
to them. How do we notsee that as the most incredible opportunity in
education we've ever seen. So canyou take us through some of the areas
(08:33):
in perhaps the support services areas that'dbe dealing with what you've thought about how
you've managed to improve those. Icertainly will. So one of the things
we've got is an AI academy forour staff. So our staff meet collectively
and they discussed the new AI toolsthey've found. So for our marketing team,
(08:54):
for example, they demonstrated mid journeyand day to the rest of the
team, which means then the creativeteam can go back to their students to
say have you seen this? Orit can be used in our local marketing
brands because we run a different setof brands in the house. It saves
us going out for design work.It writes student reports that can be personalized.
(09:20):
It writes some of our safeguarding materials. So if you say to Claude
two, for example, I needto generate a series of really informative leaflets
on all of the top twenty fivekey safeguarding issues in the Humber in a
way that can be understood by sixteenyear olds with learning difficulties. It will
do it for me. We've takenthe AI Academy also to students, so
(09:41):
three times a year we have afull student CPD week so they're off timetable
and we do all of the amazingwrap around things so employers will come in
to see them. They'll have masterclasses, we will teach them about AI,
we'll teach them about the for kindsof AI. How to be safe clearly
is a critical issue, but thoseweeks are for students to pursue their interests,
(10:09):
their goals, widen their horizons.And when you operate in an area
like call so we serve the fourthmost deprived local authority in England, those
opportunities aren't always readily available outside ofthe college. You mentioned prompt engineering earlier
on what's you're thinking from as aleader in that particular area of prompt engineering
(10:31):
into it's something that you're really hittingtowards full steam. Is it something that
you're getting support from industry? Ninetysix percent of all the businesses we deal
with are SMEs and micro businesses,so they are not often up to date
with technology. They are busy runningtheir day to day operations. They're trying
to find individuals to fill skills.Perhaps they're trying to get the bottom line
(10:52):
in they don't always horizon scan.They look to us for that, which
is why we take our AI wroteShow and Future Technology Roadshow out to them
in their workplace so that we canhelp them see the benefits for their business
to increase their productivity. Because ofcourse, if they're successful, the city
is successful. And if the cityis successful, there are more jobs for
(11:15):
my learners, which is a hugeknock on effect. So in terms of
prompt engineering, we have a directorand exec director of Digital Transformation who is
superb who's taught me how to promptengineer and is teaching the rest of the
staff how to prompt engineer and wethen build those things as part of the
curriculum. So it's a lovely bitof bite sized learning. I'm loving this
(11:37):
thought of that AI roadshow. Canyou tell me more about that work?
How do you bring students to life? And there we've got two strands of
this. There's the internal strand,which is for our own staff and our
own students. And there's the externalstrand where we go to businesses and we
show them AI how it can transformwhat they do. And the external strand.
We've been to about forty five businesseslocally, some large, some small,
(12:01):
and some trade bodies like chambers,local business improvement district bodies. So
we show them the power of thetechnology. So we break out chat GPT
four or claud to two or whateverwe choose at the time, and we
say, what's the problem you needsolvent, what's the job that you've never
(12:22):
got around to, how do youwrite a policy on X, y or
z? And we show them howthis technology, this tool in seconds can
take something off their plate and producesomething potentially better than they could have done
by spending three hours on it.I guess thinking about this and the development
of the students and what they're actuallygetting as you see it, you know
(12:43):
you've got really large number of smallto mediums who really aren't probably engaging.
Why haven't got the time to engage? I just wonder how you really future
proofing students for the future of thesejobs and actually probably making them super useful
for the small to mediums. Isit leading to actively students being heavily sought
out for going into those jobs wherethey've got those skills that the employees say,
(13:05):
you know what I need to importthe skill into my business. And
yes, you might be seventeen,but you've got everything I need. We
have excellent destinations and our apprentices inparticular often step up to a greater role
or a role with greater responsibilities.So we certainly see that starting to track
through now. But I think themore we can do with our business community
(13:26):
to have them understand and value ofthese tools and the value these youngsters can
bring, the better. But themajority of our students are adults. It
isn't about a particular bit of proprietarytechnology. It's about using everything that is
available and deploying it in the rightcontext. It's not just technology for technology's
(13:48):
sake. Still, we find outthat the baseline our digital skill set in
our staff base is usually much lowerthan we think it is. How have
you developed there? Have you've seena distinct shift there for all change towards
digitization and the way people think aboutit. Has that gone really well?
Or have you still got pockets whoare hips being even more isolated by this
(14:09):
because they're not willing to engage orfinding it difficult, and how have you
doubt. We take a relatively lassa fair approach because teachers are professionals and
I respect our teachers. I wasfifteen years a teacher, and I'm not
going to go into any room andtell a teacher how to do that job
because if they're trained on their experience, that's what I pay them for.
(14:30):
So we don't force this. I'venever been in the business of force in
my teachers to do anything. Wepay them for their expertise and I want
them to be autonomous relatively speaking,in that space. It's about making a
compelling case, but leaving it forthe professional themselves to make the decision on
Yeah. Indeed, so showing themthe tools, giving them some enablers initially
(14:52):
and then go to it. Andit's amazing. I've we've seen the same
thing as all of the best technology, the are ways of using that This
prompts have all come from the teachers. Actually, if you've got a favorite
one that's come up recently at all, or a nichronism, or to something
that's come up from the ground.But I'm a big fan of teacher Matic.
So teacher Matic is a platform that'sdesigned to help teaching stuff online,
(15:15):
teaching staff produce resources and administration better. So sometimes as a principle, you
have to roll the sleeves up.You get a project in, there's nobody
else to do it. You're theone in the hot seat. And I
had to write a unit on sustainabilityfor a foundation degree, which is part
of a project. So we'd alreadygot a number of platforms in teacher based
(15:37):
ais to pilot because I like toplay with a number of different things with
staff and then we'll go with theone they like the best or that works
for them. And so I neededto generate this unit absolutely from scratch.
So I plugged into teacher Matic allof the things I knew it needed to
do from my own expertise, andI said, okay, give me a
first iteration. Within ten seconds,I had a scheme of work. I
(16:00):
had twelve sets of lesson plans,I had all the questions, I had
activities for class, I had mypresentations, and then what I needed to
do with that is apply my expertiseto it. But I didn't have any
fear of a blank page. Iwasn't starting from scratch, and it was
easier to augment than it was tocreate. So what that did for me
(16:21):
was probably saved me about a weekand a half's time. And that is
a thing of beauty. And ifyou times that by however many units a
typical teacher in a further education collegewill be responsible for, it makes their
life easier. And I know thereis some concern, certainly from colleagues that
I've spoken to, Well, isthis the end of the teacher? Then?
(16:41):
Well, not in a million years, is it the end of the
teacher. We have persisted since wetaught flint napping to each other in previsue.
We are the custodians of an incrediblyrich skills transmission system which will not
be broken by AI. It willmake our lives easier. It will enable
us to spend more time with thestudents. And that's why we come into
(17:04):
the job. We don't come intoit for the administration. No, exactly
that. It's really magic, isn'tit. And I just sort of wonder
about, therefore, how extraordinarily adaptablewe can be in responsive to the needs
of industry. It makes us evenmore responsible. The idea about the jobs
is an interesting one I'd love toexplore with you both briefly, because there's
(17:26):
people in two camps on there peoplethat are worried about the loss of jobs
from AI, and you can understandwhy. I mean, we listened to
Deborah talking about productivity gains, beingmore efficient, being more effective. Well,
naturally you'd think the companies can domore with less when it comes to
people. On the other hand,that I spoke to a law firm earlier
on, they're not in the leastbit worried. They said, well,
(17:48):
actually, people's legal budgets are goingto stay the same, so they'll be
able to acquire more services and differentservices. But we don't anticipate any loss
in value. But we may bedoing slightly different things. And what he
pointed to was something called the Jevonsparadox, and the Jevons paradox states that
in the long term, and increasein efficiency in resource use will generate an
(18:11):
increase in resource consumption rather than adecrease. So I think the challenge here,
if I'm paraphrasing you slightly here,Debra, is that we can't necessarily
name the jobs that we see comingin the future. People. We can't
even imagine them in some senses,and therefore it's easy to think, well,
if we can't think what they are, it's hard to know what they'll
be. But actually, what theGevans paradox describing here is that the efficiency
(18:36):
in itself increases the demand. AndI guess that's the leap of faith that
you're taking here, Deborah. Couldyou talk a little bit more about why
you believe that to be the case. The pattern of jobs over the next
fifty years, because we're talking herelong term transformation as well as rapid and
urgent transformation now, will be netjob losses and net job gains. And
(18:57):
it's not a matter of life losing, it's a matter of changing. The
question really for me, and thisis unresolved in the academic literature, is
what pattern that will take. Becausein an ideal world, what you'd want
is a smooth transition, You wouldwant as many jobs created as decline.
(19:17):
We don't always live in an idealworld, so I think it's a legitimate
concern that they may be uneven transferand over the next ten to fifteen years,
perhaps even longer term. But inevery industrial revolution there has been up
until this point, there has alwaysbeen ultimately net job gain, and none
of those jobs could have been predictedat the very start of that revolution.
(19:41):
So we're very much in uncharted territory, but we're not without guidance. So
we know people will always need peopleand people's services will always be strong.
Every service give or take we havenow is in the process of becoming automated
in one way or another. Isinevitable. Even before the launch of AI
(20:02):
platforms, automation has been a bigrisk for the last fifteen years. We've
been adapting and moving through that.So when we evaluate our curriculum, we
evaluate what the risk of automation isin that particular sector, so that we
know how to augment the curriculum sothat we're not delivering one trick permonies to
industry. The key thing for meis what's the art of the possible?
(20:26):
How can we be excited about itand not frightened of it. I'm guessing
that, like me, you're expectingthat many, many more adults will need
to come back to us to continuetheir training, and probably more than ever
before. In that you know,you mentioned that equally you do a lot
of adults as we do. There'sa huge amount of adult provision. Are
you expecting to have to do alot more for those who are retraining effectively
(20:48):
or upgrading your training? I hearda step the other day that's from a
tip role. Actually, the shelflife of the skills that you learn when
you go through a qualification is nomore than four years. You're absolutely right,
And the shelf life of qualifications issomething that vexes me greatly because we
don't keep up to date with movements. The process for a new qualification to
go through off qual is heinously long. And the question for me, as
(21:12):
always well as institutions, why don'twe have awarding powers in our own rights
universities do, whereas ours in thefe sector, we can write and validate
qualifications with every bit. There's muchcredibility as our HI colleagues can, and
we're not allowed that power. Andyou're absolutely right in your earlier comment.
We can turn on a dime withsome of this because we are directly articulated
(21:36):
to our employer partners when they saythey want we can deliver fast. So
when adults come back to us whenthey want to retrain, when they need
to up skill, or when theirindustry is dying and a new industry is
being birthed, how can we helpthem adapt? So we're already starting to
plan for some of those things now. Now government initiatives like boot camps and
(21:56):
all of those things, they're usefulto a point. They help with immediate
skills needs. And I think somethingthat's not well known about colleges when we
speak about skills gaps is if youwant a brand new plumber, it's going
to take me two years to trainthem. You can't click your fingers and
train a plumber. It takes time. So immediacy of skills needs for young
(22:18):
people sometimes isn't there. But wecan move much much faster with adults because
they often come towards with base levelskills, skills that can be transferred,
and skills that can be adapted.So an observation I had in one college
group that I won't name it justthis moment, is there seem to be
some lack of encouragement for entrepreneurialism.And what I saw is that they were
(22:40):
very happy to think about the rootsinto higher education apprentices that students had brilliant
They're very happy to think about thegreat jobs that the students could have.
But entrepreneurism. The vibe I wasgetting is that they were saying to the
students, you have to have agreat idea to go and be an entrepreneur,
and I fundamentally disagree with that.I think you need to get out
there and need to solve problems.And I think college is also particularly with
(23:02):
the IoTs that come through offer studentsare rout into entrepreneurism without necessarily knowing where
they will end up or what brilliantidea they have. I think it's a
great point. I don't want tojust produce workers. I want to produce
work creators as well. I don'twant to produce employees. I want to
produce employers at the end of ourjourney. And the benefit, particularly for
(23:26):
some of our young learners, isthey have the opportunity now of a portfolio
career. They can try five orsix different disciplines, and they should.
In my opinion, when I wasyoung, you chose a career and you
broadly stuck to it. I thinkit's an incredibly exciting time because you innovate
by breadth. So if you knowan awful lot about multiple different industries,
(23:49):
you can see how the interlink interweveninterconnect, which gives your problem solving ability
a huge boost. When you onlyknow one discipline, that's all you know.
So I can't draw from other sectorsnecessarily to enhance my innovation or my
entrepreneurialism. But if I've got atoolkit from six different disciplines, I'm unbeatable.
(24:10):
So I think there is something aboutusing youth as an opportunity to explore
an experiment. But I think forsome of our learners they simply need to
pay the bills, and we haveto be very realistic about what that means
and how that can how we canbuild entrepreneurial spirit into that as well.
I guess you're also pushing the pointthat you've got to support now and if
(24:33):
you wanted to, you know,maybe it's a side hussle, but to
create an application or a piece ofsoftware that did something, we know now
that the coding support from CHECHPT andothers is substantial in a way that just
didn't exist a year ago. Areyou spreading awareness about those opportunities to innovate
in ways like that? Yeah,But I think our learners are actually very
(24:55):
clued into that side bustle affair.We see all the time students who've got
great ideas and are playing around withit, often in the social media space
and sometimes in the coding space.But I think young people as a whole
are probably more entrepreneurial than we sometimesgive them credit for. They've had to
solve an immense amount of problems toget to where they are. Consider just
(25:17):
the pandemic alone. You know thatto navigate things that at that age I
never had to navigate. They operatein an environment which is less stable in
some respects more politically charged, wherethey are faced with difficult choices every time
they leave their front door, andby and large they navigate it with real
(25:37):
grace. Hey, I'm really keenalso to explore just from a point of
view of leadership and for the educationin the technology and the vast changes.
What's your thoughts on how we nowsort of how we go forward as a
sector from a point of view ofmaking sure we've got the collaboration and the
activities that genuinely we need probably asa sector to really advance and take those
(26:00):
steps forwards. Are there some morerecent channels that you think are rectivated.
I recognize that you lead a significantCPD opportunity for people all around the UK
effectively in education. But what more, how might we do it better?
What's your thoughts here? I thinkwe need to respect the fact that there
will always be competition around the edgesbetween colleges, private training providers and other
(26:25):
independent providers of education. But Ifirmly believe we're stronger when we stand together.
I want everybody's learners to be successful. So if I've got something and
it has value, people can haveit. It's a gift. I think
that element of genuine collaboration, andI don't mean just colleges being friendly as
in a non competitive stance. Imean genuinely wanting to help someone else and
(26:49):
not feeling threatened by that just becausethey're ten miles down the road or wherever
they else. They are genuinely wantingthe best for every single learner, no
matter which door they walk through.So I wonder about if he and taking
that wider, what's the opportunity forus to genuinely use this technology in the
way that we are sharing collaborating dailyin the way that I've sort of talked
(27:11):
about across colleges and across perhaps eventhe UK, and sharing their experience and
skills, and I wonder what yourthoughts are on there. I haven't seen
that being done anywhere yet, butif you've got any examples, are we
hitting that direction? Do you thinkas it possible? I think we are
moving towards that. We're all inthat exploratory phase at the moment. Nobody's
(27:33):
got this button down because the technologyitself is not buttoned down. Every day
is an adventure. Every day issomething new, and I'm super excited about
that. I want to be ableto talk to people in other leadership positions
about it. But I don't justwant to talk to other leaders. I
want to talk to my cleaning staff. I want to talk to other people's
cleaning and hygiene staff, Well,how can this help with porterage? And
(27:55):
what can we do in HR?It? Really really good ideas for that
level of aboration come from anywhere withinan organization, and I think we are
often quite focused on rank. Youknow that there's the hierarchy. Principles speak
to principles and vice principals speak tovice principles. Well, is there a
forum? Is there something we cando where we get everybody with an interest
(28:17):
in AI together, because I wouldlove that. I don't know what the
answer to that is, though exactlyI was thinking the same thing, and
I just wondered whether you come acrossit or starting to think about it.
I'm really glad you're thinking the sameand I genuinely would love to see us
as educators be able to perform thereor think about it. Look, it's
been a fantastic Governor and speaking toDibbah of finding out what are you doing
(28:38):
there in Hull College. And Ilove the Hull Raisers, brilliant term and
thought and I'll certainly take them onhome. So thank you very much for
joining us at Southnoon. It's beenbrilliant having you. It's been an absolute pleasure.
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