Every aspect of life will change with AI: With Sir Anthony Seldon

Series: Artificial Intelligence, Leadership and the Future of Further Education

Hosts:

• Richard Foster-Fletcher, Executive Chair, MKAI.org
• Jaisal Surana, Head of Advocacy, MKAI.org

Guest:

• Sir Anthony Seldon, Head Master, Epsom College

Guest Bios:

Sir Anthony Seldon: Sir Anthony Francis Seldon is a prominent British educator, contemporary historian, and author known for his significant contributions to education and political history. Sir Anthony is currently the Head Master of Epsom College. He previously served as the 13th Master of Wellington College and was Vice-Chancellor of the University of Buckingham from 2015 to 2020.

A prolific author, Sir Anthony has written or edited more than 45 books, including political biographies of every British Prime Minister from John Major to Boris Johnson. His works are noted for their insightful analysis and detailed research, contributing significantly to contemporary historical literature.

In education, Sir Anthony is widely recognised for his innovative approaches. He introduced happiness and well-being classes at Wellington College, advocating for a holistic approach to education that encompasses emotional and social development alongside academic achievement. His leadership in promoting the International Baccalaureate and personalised learning has been influential in modernising educational practices in the UK and beyond.

Beyond his educational roles, Sir Anthony co-founded the Centre for Contemporary British History and the charity Action for Happiness. He is also a governor of the Royal Shakespeare Company and serves on the boards of several other charities and educational bodies. Knighted in 2014 for services to education and modern political history, Sir Anthony continues to be a leading voice in educational reform and historical scholarship. His recent focus includes integrating AI into education to enhance personalised learning and resilience in students.

Episode Overview:

In this special live episode of "The Transformative Impact of AI in Education," we explore the revolutionary potential of artificial intelligence in the realm of further education. This episode brings together insights from Sir Anthony Seldon and Richard Foster-Fletcher, along with guests from the MKAI.org community. The discussion delves into how AI technologies like machine learning, personalised learning algorithms, and adaptive educational software are reshaping educational practices. We discuss the historical context of educational revolutions, the unique qualities of human intelligence, and the ethical considerations surrounding AI in education.

Key Topics of Discussion:

1. The transformative potential of AI compared to historical technological advancements.
2. The importance of learning from history in shaping AI's role in education.
3. Balancing human intelligence and AI in modern educational systems.
4. The challenges and opportunities AI presents for teachers and students.
5. The ethical implications and practical implementation of AI in education.

Key 'Takeaway' Ideas:

1. AI has the potential to revolutionise education in ways comparable to the printing press and internal combustion engine.
2. A balanced approach that integrates AI while emphasising human qualities is essential for modernising education.
3. Teachers play a crucial role in maintaining human elements in education, especially for younger students.
4. AI can provide significant benefits for personalised learning, particularly for students with special educational needs.
5. International cooperation and ethical considerations are vital in harnessing AI's potential for the betterment of education.

Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-boundless-podcast--4077400/support.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
I suspect that you're both intrigued andexcited about what platforms like chat GPT can
do in terms of supporting teachers butalso into the realms of assessment and personalized
learning. And we just want tomeet you where you're at currently, really
with your thinking about what the opportunitiesmight be, the risks might be,

(00:21):
the hype, and how you thinkit impacts. Would that be okay?
Yeah, of course this is abook. Here is that in the focus
it is yes, are you arepeople aware of this book? Not yet?
No, you don't need to buyit then, because you can you've
seen it. And so this wasa book I wrote six years ago about

(00:45):
the AI revolution coming into schools andcolleges and how it and the subtitle there
is, as you can see,well, artificial intelligence enrich or in fantasy
lies education and humanity. And youcan see there how there is the human

(01:07):
and then the computer brain, theleft brain and the right brain. And
now in the book here I takethat is a starting point. Is that
in focus? That's the focus,it says Ben's and Cole. I can
see that. Okay. So that'sa picture of the Mercedes Benz factory where

(01:30):
they first got the industrial but theinternal combustion engine into cars, and you
can see their horse draw carriage andyou can see the chassis of an automobile.
And I'm saying that this is thepoint that we are now at with
AI. That's really what the wholebook is about. That we are just

(01:51):
like the people in that image there. Obviously they're all men, so that's
just one way the workplace has changed. But they knew they were onto something
that was going to be transformative,but they had no idea how could they
in eighteen eighty four how the worldwas going to be transformed by the internal
combustion engine. And what I'm sayingis that's where we are with AI.

(02:15):
We are in a huge state ofignorance. We don't know how education or
the world is going to be changedby AI. We just know that it's
going to be something the biggest thingthat's hit civilization, and that I'm saying
I say in this book that itwill be bigger than the internal combustion engine.

(02:36):
However much your lives have all beentransformed by the internal Qustrian engine,
and the lives of your parents andgrandparents are great grandparents and great grandparents probably
not that much further back have beentransformed by that. This is going to
be bigger point one point two.We don't really know yet fully exactly how

(02:58):
it's going to change me. I'lljust like Jasel to read out your biography
and a mention for me. I'mgoing to can I forbid that I'm into
a new No. No, Jason, you probably worked this out, probably
be standing in front of your mirror. People need to know who you are,
Sir Anthony, though I've spent mylife work trying to work out who
I am. Say, if peoplecan know who I am after Jasel's brilliant

(03:21):
introduction, you can achieve something thatin ten seconds that I haven't in my
life. Okay, I'll shut up, all right, if you'll permit her
to say a few words. Ithink it's important if your humor is Jasel.
Yeah, I think we can't putthat into a few seconds what you
have done through your life, butyes, we'll try. We'll try.

(03:43):
Jason, can I say I'm notyet dead by the way, with luck
with luckout survive for the next houror just short of sure? Sure?
Thanks, I'll move on to thebiography for both, Sir Anthony saidon and
Richard forstfly So. Sir Anthony FrancisSeldon is a prominent British educator, contemporary

(04:05):
historian and author known for his significantcontributions to education and political history. Sir
Anthony is currently the head Master ofAbsent College. He previously served as the
thirteenth Master of Wellington College and wasVice Chancellor of the University of Buckingham from
twenty fifteen to twenty twenty. Aprolific author, Sir Anthony has written or

(04:28):
edited more than forty five books,including political biographies of every British Prime minister
from John Major to Boris Johnson.His works are noted for their insightful analysis
and detailed research, contributing significantly tocontemporary historical literature. In education, Sir
Anthony is widely recognized for his innovativeapproaches. He introduced happiness and well Being

(04:54):
classes at Wellington College, advocating fora holistic approach to education that the encompasses
emotional and social development alongside academic achievement. His leadership in promoting the international Belakropment
and personalized learning has been influential inmodernizing educational practices in the UK and beyond.

(05:15):
Beyond his educational roles. Sir Anthonyco founded the Center for Contemporary British
History and the charity Action for Happiness. He's also a governor of the Royal
Shakespeare Company and serves on the boardsof several other charities and educational bodies.
United in twenty fourteen for services toeducation and modern political history. Sir Anthony

(05:35):
continues to be a leading voice ineducational reform and historical scholarship. His recent
focus includes integrating AI into education,enhanced personalized learning, and resilience in students.
Thank you for giving me the chanceto putting the introduction in a few
words. I hope that it isgood for all of us to understand what

(05:57):
a great work you have been doingand moving on. Everybody knows Richard,
but those who are new to thissession might know that. Richard is an
artificial advisor, intelligence advisor, authorand speaker, and a top voice on
LinkedIn. Drawing on his experience ofworking in blue chip technology companies, he
founded mki dot org, an organizationdedicated to the responsible implementation of AI.

(06:21):
He also hosts the Moundless podcast.He speaks about air inclusivity, digital ethics,
and the future of work delivering lecturesat the lse, UCL, Oxford
University and Imperial College London and providingevidence for UK Parliament. Thank you,
Thank you Richard. Sir Anthony,what can we learn from history in your

(06:43):
opinion that actually will help us tonavigate AI in education going forward? I
think that's absolutely the right question,and what else can we learn from them
from history? And with the BritishGovernment strongly encourage the consideration of history in

(07:05):
decision making processes. So I amthe historian of the British Prime Minister and
I have been an honorary historian atDowning Street and think that history is often
overlooked. It should be as importantas economics and statistics and science in consideration

(07:32):
of policy. It's difficult to drawmuch on history when we don't know much
more other than this is bigger thanany other technological innovation of the last twenty

(07:53):
five years, and I think it'sthe biggest since the printing press. So
in that book it's called the fourthEducation Revolution. You all will have been
wondering what the first three are,and if I say the third was the
discovery of the printing press, youcan ask me if you're interested in what

(08:18):
number one and number two were soI think we can learn that it is
bigger than anything in the last fourfive hundred years. We can learn the
technology drives education, that the shapeof universities, colleges, schools today is
determined by the technical technological possibilities ofthe eras in which these were developed.

(08:46):
Lecture halls of a size that thehuman voice would carry to classrooms, of
a size that a teacher can manage, and that the economic system can afford
to produce the numbers of teachers forto teach. And all that is going
to change, every facet of teachingand learning and assessment, and school organization

(09:11):
and pastoral and mental health care willchange, and registration and finance and accounting,
law and catering, every single aspectof school life co curricular as much
as curricular will change with AI.And what we need to do is to

(09:33):
work together to try and ensure thatit is in the interests of all young
people. And we need to ponderthe most beguiling question that there can be
at the moment, which is whatis human intelligence? Is anything left when
the machines now in fifty years time, there'll be a million times quicker and

(09:56):
smarter. Is there anything left thathuman being as uniquely can do? What
is the human residual? What doesit mean to be human? And how
can we be reconfiguring education systems tocelebrate and highlight and celebrate the human So

(10:16):
I will ask you what those firsttwo were, if you can share them
with us, Richard, this ispurely my own making up, but I
think it is the beginning of learningnow. Very roughly, in a schematic
kind of way, we might saythat hobicappiences predecessors began learning roughly some five

(10:41):
million years ago about how to copyeach other. By watching an observation,
you are copying behaviors that might havebeen five million years ago. Far more
historically accurately, we would say roughlyfive thousand years ago, as nomadic people
pools began to settle in, particularlyon the on the estuaries of five four

(11:09):
or five leading rivers, including theNile and the Tigris Euphrates, civilizations began
along the banks and people were nolonger moving around. And as people settled
down in fixed locations, schools orplaces of learning sprung up about passing on

(11:31):
this organized knowledge. So that wasroughly five thousand years ago and it's intriguing
if you look at the early designof those institutions with a teacher in the
front and students sitting at desks infront of them and learning about basic law
and barter and accounting, and aboutwhat one needs to make a a society

(12:01):
work. And that was so.The first was beginning of learning, second
beginning of organized learning, and thethird with the printing press, is the
beginning of factory learning in the currentmodel that we have, and that was
roughly some five hundred, so fivemillion, five five hundred. It's very
schematic, but it gives a senseof how big and powerful this current revolution

(12:24):
is. For it to be onthat scale, that's quite a framing,
isn't it, in terms of itssignificance to what extent? Then, does
this suggest that we need something ofa great reset then to education. We
do, Richard and everybody, Andit's very hard if we look at how

(12:46):
change happens in history. Change happensas a result of major disruptive events.
Now, it could be a physicalevent. It could be a flood,
it could be a volcanic eruption.It could be an e global epidemic such
as the Black Death or the Spanishflu epipidemic of nineteen seventeen to nineteen nineteen

(13:13):
or COVID we haven't yet. Itcan be an economic downturn such as the
Great Depression of the late twenties earlythirties, and it can be war.
So if we look at the lastcentury, the impact of the First World
War nineteen fourteen to nineteen eighteen onmedicine, on science, on technology,

(13:37):
on governmental systems, on industrial organizationwas vast, and it did bleed in
to a revolution in education the worldover. Education became a rite, a
need, and at older and olderages for young people. The war did

(14:01):
show has had an earlier British war, the Boer War of eighteen ninety nineteen
ninety eight two, how illiterate anduneducated, but also how physically malnourished the
population was. So war is agreat stimulant. So if we look at

(14:22):
your question, Richard, what willit take for schools, colleges, university
society to reorganize itself? There aresuch pwerful forces of inertia resisting change.
It may be twenty five years beforethe impact of AI, with its vast

(14:43):
benefits but also risks for but that'sconsidering the benefits for learners. It may
be that it's going to take thatlong and longer, perhaps in those countries
where protection of a worker rights asmore and more trenched, and there's more
resistance to change and more fear ofchange, and more lack of trust of

(15:07):
leaders, whether political leaders or educationleaders. So I think it's hard to
say that the technology will rapidly outstripthe the way that schools are and adapted
themselves to it. It's interesting youtalk about some of the workers and the

(15:28):
unions, and of course that's amajor factor. A good friend of mine
drives an underground train and if you'renot aware of this, makes a six
figure income doing this as well,and that is relatively simple to use automation
and AI to drive that train.But there is no chance that they are
upsetting any of those drivers anytime soon. They are absolutely locked in by the
unions and the contracts. So andone can understand that we need to In

(15:56):
Britain, the teaching force feels insufficientlyvalued by government and insufficiently trusted, and
the drive for exams has squeezed outteach for autonomy, teacher Flair, teacher
creativity, Teacher Initiative, so thatif we can say that union resistance might

(16:23):
be a block, a bigger blockwould be government in transigence or failure to
appreciate and understand that teachers are naturallyconcerned about their working lives and their incomes
and their job satisfaction. I think, introduce it well and teach a workload
wal decline. Teach your contact timewill rise and teacher ingenuity will return.

(16:52):
I want to ask you about disruption, a term that lots of businesses and
entrepreneurs like to use. Do youthink it's call across schools sixteen to eighteen
higher education or do you see asubset of education being impacted faster by general
to BAI than others. It's partlyan affordability question. What can the schools

(17:15):
afford, what can the students' familiesafford? There are I think, in
general, Richard, the higher theolder the student, the more scope there
is, in part because their owncapability at using the technology will be more

(17:38):
advanced, and the applications the materialthat's available better suited. For younger children
age three, four, five,six, all the way up to eleven
and through eleven, the role forthe teacher as a mediator and as a
human force will be greater. I'mthinking also of the work of Jonathan Height

(18:03):
of his book Is on the Bookshelfbehind Me, and his work about the
damage of social media, in particularon the brains of young people age between
eleven twelve thirteen fourteen. The damageis particularly concentrated on them at level at
ages when there's a lot of rewiringreprocessing going on in the child's brain,

(18:27):
and the need for human contact isthat the greatest. So I think for
all these reasons and more, Ithink the older student will be more exposed
to these technologies, but that doesn'tmean they're not very considerable roles for younger

(18:48):
children. I think that we needground young people in the warmth and uniqueness
of human interaction we've known ever sinceBolby. For those familiar with the work
of Bolby on attachment, how muchthe infant needs the secure attachment of the

(19:12):
mother or a mother figure, andthat for those young people who have a
secure attachment, that they know thatthey are loved, that they're held,
that they're secure. And I thinkin the same way that as learners,
but I can't base this in thesame way on scientific evidence that for younger

(19:37):
children the formation of relationships with asecure teacher, a loving, steady,
kind, present, non angry teacher. That is important in the formation of
a maduration of that sense of securitywe know very hard for adults who didn't

(20:00):
have secure attachment when infants for therest of their life. And my senses
also, and I think that Heightswork, Johnathon Heights work. I assume
you are familiar with Jonathan Heights work, can use we can just put that
in the chat. Yeah, butit wants to mention I just hang on
there because it's I'm just going tojust get his book to shape, not

(20:22):
a virtual background, so that I'mtalking for my study at EPSOM College.
That is the book that I wantsto screenshot that just on your phones if
you may well know it. Itis probably it's the most important book to
be published on education this year.And although I think personally that he is

(20:45):
overly pessimistic about the positive impacts ofsocial media. But so so you asked
me a question about what ages.I think that the positives expand the older
the child gets for the reason statedyes, and as you mentioned as well,
money, if you're paying for university, it certainly heightens your interest in

(21:07):
the outcomes. It's not cheap thesedays. Thank you for sharing that when
you were speaking is Well. Itprompted me to check the stats on the
UDIM courses and it seems to vary, but the consensus is that eighty five
to ninety five percent of these typesof online self learning courses don't get finished.
So you can immediately see the impactof the human in the educational loop

(21:30):
when you see those sorts of numbers, and an AI can never convey the
passion, the experience, the love, the joy that a teacher can,
and that's Surroundedony. I'm sure you'veseen this as well, that it's the
impact of the teacher that keeps,for example, UK college students coming to
class. It's nothing else. Okay, I'm going to just qualify that a

(21:52):
bit, and while agree with you, I think that those vast numbers very
high percentage for different forms of neurodiversity, special education needs and disabilities, AI
has a huge role to play,whereas it would be much better to have

(22:18):
a human teacher for every child whohas special education needs and indeed sometimes special
geographic needs that they live on islandsor live in remote parts of the country
where there aren't schools at all,or they're not schools that have a range

(22:40):
of specialist teachers. Then AI hasa particular role to play. It personalizes
itself onto that special education need ofthat person, or the disability of the
person, or the geographic or socialor economic exclusion of that person it and

(23:00):
it can give real time personalized teachingin the way that if there was the
money, everyone would have in aclass in a physical space together. But
you can't do that because I'll neverbe enough money to pay for teachers for
a one on one teacher, specialistteacher for a free child and learning needs.
Of course, social relationships are foundationalfor our wellbeing, our learning,

(23:27):
our happiness, our sanity, butthat doesn't mean that they're not massive benefits,
including for the most disadvantaged from thesetechnologies and linguistic difficulties too, for
those who have particular linguistic needs.They're coming to a country so many in

(23:48):
refugees, they're then to grow anumber and language of the country might not
afford that possibility. They can havethat personalized teaching in the language that they
can understand. Picking up on oneof your points there, I think it
was Robert Hitchcock's Sir Anthony in ourclass, whose phone would ring every single
evening that the homework was due thenext day. But the question he was

(24:11):
being asked by all of us wasn'tcan you help me or what can I
cheat? It was I don't reallyunderstand what we've been asked to do,
and that's just an immediate opportunity forartificial intelligence to be able to help clarify
the tasks and dig into what's reallybeing asked here. But let's not avoid
the big question, Sir Anthony,which I think I can see where you're

(24:33):
going with this, is to whatextent is it broken in the first place?
At the moment? Education it's notbroken for many, is it.
I don't think it's a black andwhite I don't think that. I think
education is locked into an ideological structureand few can see outside it. They

(24:56):
do think that education is all aboutmaxim I say, and cognitive intelligence,
and okay, we'll throw a bitof music, a bit of sport in,
a bit of character stuff in,but frankly, it's all a bit
of a distraction from the main thing, which is to get you put the
young people through the exams, andthat's job done. It is, and
that's an ideological framing. It's abubble, but it's not what education is.

(25:22):
It's not what the word means,and so it's not broken. It's
pretty good in many countries, butit could be much better, thank you.
We certainly hope that AI is atie that lifts all ships in education.
So I'd like to speak to youmore about that in just a moment,

(25:44):
along with your thoughts on teaching learning, an assessment of different aspects that
AI can impact, and I'll probablyask you whether or not you'd actually even
get rid of exams in just amoment. But before all that, perhaps
Jasel, if you don't mind,you could just catch us up on some
of the comments from the chat andif there's one or two questions that would
be good just to put out toSir Anthony. Absolutely. I think we
have a couple of comments, andthe first comment comes from Henry Caateman and

(26:08):
he said that interesting various comments fromour children. He's mentioning about his children
who are young twenty and seventeen,indicate that the current educational system does not
match the modern world. Before reallyeven considering a huge and accelerating changes caused
by R and he also has mentionedthat the focus on book learning, exams

(26:32):
and learning things are quickly out ofdate and can be readily researched does not
seem at all appropriate to the currentlearners. So this is one of his
comments. And there was a verysweet comment that came in while I think
Sir Anthony was talking about the humanrelationship between the teacher and the child.

(26:52):
Is that a teacher can hug.So I think that shows the connection and
about the feelings that you could buildon when there is a human actual being
there with regards to education. Andwe also have another one from Bierica.
A few years ago, I usedto deliver workshops across uk FE institutions called

(27:14):
make them Laugh and They will Learnfor oil teachers. I'm so happy to
see that all this time I wasworking along similar lines as Sir Anthony.
Our current project at New City Collegeis about AI n f HE teachers wellness.
So these are some documents, solet me just pick up on three

(27:36):
things and they're very wonderful comments.Fear first point, Fear has damaged education
and so much of education in Britainand globally is driven by fear of failure.
Fear of inspection regimes, fear ofthe many regulations that come in compliant

(28:02):
we all have to comply. Fearis corrosive of education. In one way
it is is fear of lawsuits.And so the point they're about hugging and
physical contact is extraordinarily important. Butbecause a very of a minority of adults

(28:26):
who have inappropriately touched and how children, then one is not allowed to huggle
or have physical contact. So that'san example of conventions practices human behavior being
dictated by the bad, not bythe good. Now, the deep and

(28:51):
profound damage it's been done to somechildren because of physical and sexual abuse by
adults is deeply stressing, and muchof it still ANNs. But it is
a shame that the need that childrenhave to feel accepted and included, particularly
young children, and that it's ashame that teachers a fart are afraid to

(29:17):
do that because it may be necessary, but that there are big losses in
that. And I think that onereason why unhappiness and insecure identity is such
a feature for young people is becauseof the stigma about physical touch and physical

(29:38):
contact. There's no doubt that weall feel better, we might be feeling
that we've got a slight a roughday and we're rather locked in and someone
just touches us on the shoulder completelycannot say innocently or innocently of any sexual
motive, and it just makes usfeel better. Completely changed is the whole

(30:00):
basket in which we are living,and for children it can be enormously gratifying
and helpful, and a lot ofchildren don't get hugs at home or so.
One of the point about fear,second is the point about let me
roll the next two points into one, which is that in Britain the government

(30:22):
has framed the discussion about it's eitheracademic rigor with tests and exams, or
it's all that fluffy rubbish about happinessand character and being and whatever tripe all
that's about. And of course that'sso completely wrong because wise people know that
in any organization, the more theflourishing of the staff, or in this

(30:48):
case, the more the flourishing ofthe kids and the staff, the students
and the staff, the higher theproductivity, including the better the exam performance
and test performance. Happier children,as that beautiful quotation goes, perform better
when we do better when we arehappy, and the same in a factory

(31:08):
or in a modern office, ifthe staff feel valued and treasured, they
will want to do better. Theywant to be more diligent, they'll make
less mistakes. In hospitals, ifthere is a hectoring, bullying manager or
doctor in charge, everyone's going tobe afraid of mistakes, and they make

(31:30):
more mistakes so than if there isa supportive atmosphere. So it isn't either
or. It isn't either rigor ornonsense. Or it's not that it's nonsense.
It's so let's put in other ways. It's not rigor or empathy and
compassion. It's empathy, compassion andrigor. And the more empathy we have,
the more the performance goes up.So that are my two quick responses.

(31:56):
Yes, and to frame that you'vethought and we've written, you've worked
a lot on the wellness side ofthings. Certainly not just a left brain
conversation. I'll do a quick timecheck with you, sir Anthony. What
time do we have you until Ican kind of just just do a quick
check here. I didn't want tooutstay my welcome with everybody, and one
second and if we break at fifteen, is that too late? At one

(32:22):
point fifteen. Is that too latefor you? It's perfect. Yes,
that's absolutely fine. I'll just toeverybody else. I'll hold the call open
for a while anyway, and we'lljust get some reflections at that time.
That's more than perfect. Should wetake a question then from the chat Jasel
before I jump back in with someof my own Absolutely. I think there
are a couple of questions, butthere are two people who have almost asked

(32:45):
the same question, So let's goin for that, and it's quite relevant
to what we are talking now.So Maria has mentioned what do you think
are some key changes needed to modernizeeducation? And along with that, Henry
has asked. Henry Lindon has asked, what is the one significant change you
believe schools and our universities will implementwithin the next five years to better prepared

(33:09):
young people for the new world ofwork. So I think these are about
modernizing education and work both together.Yeah, first one, second was one
big change, and Chase the firstone was more marias I think, But
that question is more around what inparticular it was about modernizing education? Do

(33:34):
we think we can what are thekey changes needed? I think everybody you're
on this call because you're interested,and I think we can only have that.
We should talk less about what wewant them to do and more about
what we can do. We can'tdo very much to affect those people in
power taking decisions, but we canmake an mighty difference in our own immediate

(34:00):
spheres and modernization. I think wehave to do two things at the same
time. We have to embrace ina considered way the new AI technologies,
but we also have to double downon the human Also, I think that
individuals need to keep abreast of what'shappening and ensure that any change is deepening

(34:27):
humanity, deepening compassion. The machinesin a thousand years time will not be
human. They won't have the consciousness, and indeed they'll come a rate at
which they can no longer improve yearsand years away from that happening. So
I think what we can do isto double down on human values and integrate

(34:53):
the technology in ways that highlight it. And the biggest single thing that's that
universities can do and schools and collegesuniversities is to be aware of what's happening.
It doesn't work to be an ostrichin this sticking your head in the
sand, which is what Ostriges do, though I've never seen an ostriche stick

(35:17):
their head in the sand. ButI'm told and I believe it. That's
what so much education is stays inthe boiling water, either Surro Anthony from
what I've heard. But we haveto be aware of what's happening. This
is the biggest thing. As wewere saying at the beginning, where are
we in that photograph, that earlyphotograph and the Mercedes Benz workforce with the

(35:42):
sort of are they saying I don'tlike all this, or I think I'm
going to retire before it comes intoperfect or if I close my eyes,
it's not going to be there,will go away. And that's exactly what
we've done in the last twenty fiveyears with social media, and the result
is that the young people are deeplydisturbed and they will be for the rest
of their lives. The lasting damagehas been done. I think that we

(36:05):
have to get in there. Wehave to underline the human We have to
take our own humanity seriously. Richard'staken up yoga true or false, and
I think we have to think aboutour own spiritual lives, our social lives,
our own deep the thing the culturallives are families. What really matters

(36:29):
to us. We need to groundourselves deeply in the human and in the
human relationships with students and colleagues,while at the same time really positively seeking
out what the new technology, technologicalwaves. We can't be like Canute?
Does Canute? Is that a culturalreference Richard? That translates good? Want

(36:52):
to say it? So there wasa king of England. Is this apocryphal?
Do you really happen to anyone knowthe answer to that? Did dig
can Connute? Did the story reallyhappen? Let's say it did. And
there was a king of England whowas told he was so powerful that even

(37:14):
the incoming sea tide, sea wouldreverse if he put his hand up and
said no more. And he believedit, or he certainly was willing to
go along with it. So histhrone was taken down to the beach,
to the shoreline, and he saton it and told the waves to go

(37:36):
back rather to keep rolling on in. And you know what, they rolled
back? No, they didn't.They carried on coming in. And we
can't be like Commute. We can'tsay like so many people are doing.
I don't want to know about this, or it's too big for me to
understand, or it's too boring,or I'd sooner watch the euro Cup finals

(37:57):
and maybe by the time I've stoppedwatching this all go away. We've got
to find we've got to positively seekenout and think how we can shape it
in our lives to improve our ownlives, and frankly limit the amount of
time that you spend in front ofthese things, because these are destructive.
Interesting example, one of my historycolleagues took his group of this is at

(38:23):
the school here at Epxham College insouth of London, and took his colleagues
off a couple of weeks ago,students of a couple of weeks ago to
the First World War battle sites,and he said that because they all had
these machines, they got much lessfrom the trip. Because they were all

(38:46):
the time in between seeing things ontheir machines, they weren't reflecting deeply.
These things massively intrude into our lives, and so I think that I think
that we should watch ourselves, becareful of ourselves, recognize that things are
happening in our own lives as wellas in scientists lives, that we need

(39:08):
to think about and we have tobe that change. You've referenced social media
a couple of times, and there'sdefinitely lessons, big lessons to be learned
from that. I remember that Googlewas hauled in front of Congress a few
years back about a potential monopoly thatthey had, and the monopoly was in
mobile search. They had something likeninety percent plus of all mobile searches.

(39:30):
But they managed to convince the politiciansthat nobody searched on mobiles, the amount
of search on mobiles was so insignificantcompared to desktop that it was not there
was no point having an anti monopolisticlaw on this. Roll the clock forward,
of course, and they knew perfectlywell, and now they have the
search monopoly. Do you feel thatpoliticians, and I don't know if you

(39:51):
want to reference this as UK politiciansare going into this kind of discussion we're
having here with their eyes open tothe significant I think that politicians globally that
we can only resolve this on aninternational level, and that we do have
a remarkable body in the United Nations. But the United Nations finds very difficult,

(40:16):
very difficult to get traction against powerfulcorporations and against powerful countries that don't
want to play ball with it.For national governments, they can introduce laws
to try and ensure that these newtechnologies have their positive benefits maximized. But

(40:38):
there are two problems with national governments. Three problems. One is their reach
is only nationally. Secondly, someof them are in bed with the corporations,
the technology companies, and they arebenefiting from those relationships. They're worried
about being seen to come to them. Often they're linked to media, and

(41:02):
governments are always very wary about aboutdoing anything to upset those with media power.
And Thirdly, the time horizon ofpoliticians is the next general election in
a democratic country. That's what they'rethinking of. And the changes we're talking

(41:22):
about are going to affect ten twentytwenty five years in the future, so
it's beyond the interest because it simplydoesn't compute with them. So those are
we have to rely on politicians,but don't expect too much. I think
that's why Richard, I've set upthis group called AI in Education that is

(41:45):
all about the sector itself teaches itselfglobally, coming together and saying this is
good AI, this is bad AI, and trying to shape it. Ben.
It's for the products in the interestsof deep education, demanding education,

(42:06):
appropriate education, and which minimize thedownside, and which try and gear it
towards the least advantaged the benefits becauseit's the least advantage who always do so
that body, which do you knowthis or not? I can't remember.
I set it up just every yearago. It's called AI in Education and

(42:30):
it's a great group of it's runby the profession for the profession and for
students and parents and governors and othersin fortant education. So it's by them,
for them and with them. Justpicking up on a question from Jeff

(42:50):
was just recently left that OU.Is there any particular leadership around this from
the UK or Europe. So theOU is in Milton Keynes of doing fantastic
work and we have this conference nextweek, this AI and Education group with
the Open University. There are leaders. Often they tend to be this or
that university, or this or thatuniversity department, or this or that school

(43:15):
or college. To the best ofmy knowledge, you're obviously doing great work.
Also, we are the only UKbased group which is bringing together in
a charishable way, not for aprofit. Way those who are most directly
involved in AI to try and ensurethat it's going to go back to the

(43:36):
book cover I showed you that's goingto enhance humanity and civilization rather than restrict
it. Yes, I've just beenputting a link there to the chat That
conference looks fantastic. Is there stillopportunities to register for that? No,
definitely, we'd online or however,we'd love to see you there. I

(43:58):
know we've got a few people herefrom the area around Milton Kings and Blashley.
Yea there in the country. Weare biased, but yes, wonderful,
So I said, I'd ask youa couple of those questions that I
loaded up. But before we getto that, just thinking about those teachers
as an expression going around called thedoomers and the gloomers and the boomers,

(44:20):
I think they're called in terms ofpeople's perceptions on AI and the influence it
will have. But you've got teachersabsolutely that aren't ofay with this or aren't
familiar with this. You've got teachersthat are embracing it. You've got teachers
and I've heard this directly, andI'm sure others have two who are sort
of pondering their existence and thaying isanything that I'm teaching relevant anymore? How

(44:42):
do I set my students up forthe future of work when I don't even
know what the future of work lookslike. That's fear again, isn't though
We've never known what the future islike. The only people know what the
future is is fortune tellers, andthey end up making so much money that
then they n have to follow whatthe future is like. We've never known
what the future is like, andthat shouldn't be a reason for not doing

(45:06):
our best and following our best atour better or our best natures. It's
uncertain that we know that human agencyis all important. A criticism of education
at the moment is that it suppressesagency rather than encourages it. The students
have to learn the right answer andright time, in the right way and

(45:29):
then reproduce that in the exams,and that's not what human experience is like.
Just Richard, that first part ofthe question there, just trying to
tease out points there, just lookingat the question that you asked. Yeah,
that variation is huge, isn't it? Across the sector? Yes,

(45:52):
inevitably, but we have to gowe have to embrace it. We simply
have to embrace what's happening. Itwon't go away, and we can't be
commutes, and we have to worktogether. We have to be positive about
it. We have to shape itin the interest of what is best about

(46:15):
humanity, not what's worst about humanity. And it can be incredibly riching.
I've been on the board of theRoyal Shakespeare Company and they're the benefits with
Shakespeare of Ai and mixed reality andvirtual reality is enormous. The ability to
be there on the stage and interweavearound the actors, to be part of

(46:38):
the action, to play out possiblealternative scenarios, or to be in a
Sonnet and to be in this ethereal, beautiful world, unimaginable world, to
fly to the island in tempest itis, or to conduct scientific experiments,

(47:00):
to do sociological and philosophical and economicmodeling. That business modeling may beyond the
imagination of any possibility of any class. It's so exciting what it could do
and offer. And we if goodpeople abandon the space, then the bad
guys will take over. Modernization critical, whether that's Shakespeare, the church.

(47:24):
Perhaps you've worked at some institutions withsome serious history behind them, Sir Anthony
Wellington and now epsom where you're coveringfor some time. I'm curious what are
the actual rules if you can sharesome of them. Minutes and college about
students using chat, GPT or others. You can't stop the music chat GPT,

(47:46):
can we? And we have quitetight rules about screens for up to
the sixteen year olds. They're notallowed them throughout the school day and we
have various voluntary codes's in practice totry and reduce the number and the amount
and volume of screen time, tomake it smarter, to make it more

(48:07):
effective. And we need to havehuman activities which engage young people, provide
the opportunities for them to do suchactivities and learning and tear them away or
persuade them, nudge them away fromthe screens. However exciting computer games are

(48:31):
at the moment, they will becomefar more exciting when the game itself personalizes
itself to the personality of the user. Of course, you can see in
that risk with gambling already, thosewith addictive genes and if there are people

(48:51):
who have the insecure attachments, andthat's aligned to those who are have event
towards addiction. They are vulnerable inthat vendagram overlap. And then if you
throw into that AI with the abilityto personalize it and to find out what
pleases the person, gambling or withpornography is going to do have a hugely

(49:17):
corrosive effect on the ability of youngmales, or not just young males,
but also women, to interact withothers of the opposite or indeed the same
gender and have meaningful personal relationships.It can be enormously damaging when the reality

(49:42):
can appear to be rather disappointing andless exciting and certainly a lot more messy
than the possibilities online. So weneed to come back to human not just
humanity, but notions of human goodnessand human empathy which enhance relationships rather than

(50:04):
devias them, which is what honoritydoes. And gampling almost objectifies ourselves,
and any form of objectivization is aportrayal of subjectivisation, which lies at the
hearsh of human relationships. Yeah,from what I see of pornography, it
seems to be far more about powerand control of people over other people than

(50:25):
anything to do with sexuality these days, and I worry about the normalization of
things like that when we think aboutthat most heinous crimes in society, the
minds go to things that happen tochildren, and the reason for that is
that we recognize the vulnerability of children. But I would argue, and Marcus
is on the call we've spoken aboutbefore, that I think we're equally vulnerable
to exactly what you've been describing cognitively, and so I think an acknowledgment that

(50:52):
we are very easy to manipulate bialgorithms, it's not even difficult technologically to
do that leads us very exposed,and I think a sort of global recognition
of that is important. It's startdifficult, and we're very vulnerable. We
are very vulnerable. We're all vulnerableeven in pre AI two being influenced,

(51:14):
and look at what's happening in Americawith Donald Trump persuading people. It's not
difficult. It's not difficult. Andthat's even before you have AI deep fakes,
personalizing on the screen, having Richardyour face telling people what to be
doing in a very persuasive, personalizedway. The technology knows our vulnerabilities and

(51:40):
the moment the technology is pre AItechnology is just uniform for everybody, but
when it personalizes it becomes lethal andfor many people will be unstoppable unless we
can help people ground people. Andit's with jobs. It's not just isn't
just the job jobs some will disappear. It's also the satisfaction of the jobs.

(52:05):
And I do think that the Ithink London taxi system is unusual in
that the drivers are required to memorizethe whole street maps of London and they
can spend three, four, five, six years learning every single street map,
every single street, and every singlebuilding, and then they use that

(52:30):
to guide and it's that specialist knowledgethat you're paying for. But since these
screens appear on everywhere's dashboard and ittells you where to go, the knowledge
they had is now useless. Andthese are AI machines. They are adapting
in real time to what's happening inthe streets in front of you that the
driver cannot possibly know about. Sothey're making the knowledge and therefore the brains

(52:57):
are changing back from the actually driverswhere they were expanded because of all the
mental activity going on there. Nowwe're drawing. We are into a big
retreat if we're not careful, Sowe have to take all this seriously.
I wonder Richard, if that's probablyenough. I'm worried and I've been a
bit low energy on this call,but I've tried to listen to the excellent

(53:19):
questions and deal with them individually,and see, we're honored to have you
here. And not at all wouldI say that. I think we started
the session with fifty and we're atforty eight. I think we're hanging on
your words here so at all.And we prefer realism. We're not looking
for RAH. We want to getyeah and summarize. We have to work
together. We have to share.We have to have real information. We

(53:44):
have to share, we have towork it through together. We have to
be optimistic, we have to beaware. We have to be together.
And I think with those three things, aware of what's happening, not like
ostriches or Canute. I think ifwe share rather than hoard and try and
be the best ourselves or the bestinstitution. So we've got to be collaborative.

(54:07):
And we have to be positive becauseit pessimism, begets pessimism and defeat.
Optimism is much more life enhancing energygiving You know what it's like being
around somebody who's optimistic. They've justgot much more energy. Now you can
say, what's the causality there are? Do they have lots of energy therefore

(54:30):
they're optimistic or do they have lotsof the optimistic because the end, which
way does it flat? But thosethree things, And by the way,
I am optimistic. I think thatin twenty five years time life will be
enormously richer than it is now.I can see that you're optimist and you
are very positive about this, butthat doesn't need to be framed in high

(54:52):
and nonsense, really, and Ithink we've always tried to have that freedom.
Yeah, absolutely no, And youhave your grit brilliantly and it is
you've got it absolutely brilliantly. Wehave to be realists. It's be optimists,
but realists. We can't be closedeyed are living in our land of
everything's going to be lovely, becauseyou know what, there's at least a

(55:14):
fifty to fifty that we're not goingto be able to get this right.
Yeah, and there's plenty to beworried about in the world, no doubt
about that. But if I wasa young person today and I love this
quote, I'm not sure where itcame from that we've had the world's knowledge
in our pocket for a decade now, but now we have a guide.
What an exciting time to be goinginto the world of work or being a

(55:35):
student. Thank you so much,Thanks everyone for joining. They are to
say thanks a very good very niceto talk to you all.