January 21, 2025 • 32 mins
On this episode we catch up with our good friend John T Edge, author and host of the excellent TV show, True South. We chat about
- his recent trip to the UK, his highlights and favourite foods from the trip
- What chance a True South international special?
- How well Texas and Oklahoma fits into "Southern" culture
- The place that the humble hotdog holds in American culture
- Some of John T's favourite personal interest stories from this season
- can we get him to share his best Mac n Cheese recipe?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm not going to comment on that.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
I'll get fine for the rest of my life if
I get comment.
Speaker 3 (00:04):
On that.
Speaker 4 (00:13):
National championship. He's that young Stirl.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Hey everyone, and welcome to the College Chaps podcast. Well
we never picked favorite guests, but our guest on this
episode has become a great friend of the show and
someone who we look forward to talking about at least
some point during the year. But first were the College Chaps.
I'm George and by my side as Ollie. Ollie, how
are you, my friend?
Speaker 2 (00:47):
I'm very tired, George. It's just now sixteen hours work
since the National Championship finished, and a long, long day yesterday,
but great and for the college football season and a
bit of a different flight there to our that's post
post national championship show, which I'm very judged. Don't think
(01:08):
we don't have favorite guests on this show. This is
absolutely one of my favorite guests that we have on
and the opportunity to debate a little bit away from
the normal that we talked about, which I'm very excited about.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
That pun intended when you talked about different flavor.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Absolutely, I've been working. I've been working on literally all.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Day and one of the great gifts this podcast has
given us, and I don't think we expected this at
the time, was the ability to get to know people
want to chat with them about a passion. So guest
today is kind enough to be a third time guest
and as an author, teacher and James Beard Award winner,
but we know I'm best as the host of the
excellent TV show True South. So it's awesome to welcome
(01:46):
back John T Edge, John T. Hi, how are you.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
I'm very well. I'm glad to be in y'all's virtual presence.
Y'all said very many nice things about me a moment ago,
and I'll return the favor. And then there's a reason
people listen to y'all because kindness comes through and I'm appreciative.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
So thanks, thank you, well, we appreciate that. That's all
the celebratory nonsense out of the way. Now the last time,
last time we spoke, which was just a little over
a year ago, because I listened to the episode this morning.
You were planning a trip to the UK and you
got across to the UK, and I think we thought
this would be a great starter because we talked to
(02:25):
you so much about traveling to the South. We thought
let's let's talk to John T about traveling to the
south of England. So how was how was the How
was the trip? And it just your kind? I know
we've got a short period of time, but what the
kind of highlights of the trip for you?
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Well, y'all tried to help us and we thought we
were going to Scotland and that didn't work out. We
ended up going to London and then out in the
cats Walls. It was my wife and I was our
twenty fifth wedding anniversary, so we wanted lux We want
a luxury and indulgence and we got it. We also
(03:05):
got time to work on projects my wife. When we
were in Cornwall, in this posh place called the Pig
in Cornwall and Harlan Bay, my wife fell in love
with a dovecot out back and painted one of the
paintings in her show. My wife's a clage artist in
(03:29):
one of the paintings was set in that dovecot in
the back of the Pig at Harlan Bay. So y'all
not only delivered on the posh but you also inspired
my wife in her painting, which made me really happy.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
One of the things that has inspired us over the
years of watching you work is obviously true South, that
is the connection between people and food, and American people
don't always come over to the UK and enjoy the
corner experience for one other, befraid because there is some
(04:05):
oddities to British cuisine. What were some of the things
that caught your eye if any while you're over here,
we have the opportunity to take in sort of the
English side of the corner experience.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
Yeah. I can recall eggs for breakfast. We stayed at
the Cali Experimental, the place where arguably Lewis Carroll saw
the rabbit go down the hole, and the eggs were
so like sunshine bright, and I asked the waiters, like,
(04:39):
why are these eggs psychedelic? And he said, well, we
feed them carrots and hot peppers, and I can. I
still crave those eggs. My wife and I still talk
about those eggs, both soft scramble, which is the way
I liked them, where they're still runny and ooey and gooey.
But I can remember those so well. And and I
(05:00):
remember a Sunday roast we had. That's that's kind of
I think my favorite thing that y'all do and do
so well, and I realized it's probably a touristy thing
to show up on that side of the pond in
search of Sunday roast. But I was therefore, and we
had that at a place called the Double Red Duke,
also out in the Cotswolves and I don't know, to
(05:24):
have a you know, to open a bottle of wine
and around one o'clock and cut into a big juicy
flank of steak and with nothing else on the agenda
except the nap that will follow around three. That's a
tradition I can lean into. I'll offer one more thing.
(05:45):
And this was when we were in London. We were
staying up near notting Hill and just wandering and there
was a you know, like some restaurants that have kind
of of a I don't know, an understated front to them.
They're usually a little cafe windows and there's maybe a
discreet name on the door, but there's a look of
confidence that a restaurant can project and you know like, Okay,
(06:09):
that place isn't trying too hard, that place knows what
it's doing. And for us, that was this restaurant called
Clark's and we were having a pretty uproarious center I
think we'd had a few cocktails before we sat down,
and Blair and I were cutting up. And my wife
has a tendency. I mentioned her art earlier. She had
(06:29):
a tendency to draw on the tablecloths with a pen
and she'll narrate a scene whatever it might happen. We're
having a great time and the guy who was sitting
across from us, and we didn't notice, you know, shouts
across the room. You know, hey, how y'all doing. And
we begin shouting back and forth across the room talking
(06:49):
to him, and next thing we knew he had sent
us a dessert of strawberries that were in right perfection.
At that point in this would have been June, yeah,
June right perfection. And we find out later in conversation
with him he's like the head of the Special Investigations
(07:10):
Force for the Madrid Police Force, and he was garrulous
and kind. And it's one of those things that you know,
when you travel, you either shrink in and you pretend
like you know, don't want to step in the wrong
puddle and don't want to step into the wrong conversation,
or you open up. And I think we really tried
(07:32):
on this trip to open up and then counter with
the dude from the special Forces of the Madrid you know,
instead of strawberries, like how beautiful was that? And there
were great strawberries.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
I agree with you. For many years when I traveled
a I would keep my mouth shut, not enter into it.
Right it kind of I don't know if you feel
slightly you know, not too positive, or call didn't about it.
But I find that when you do integrate, and some
of my based interactions have been in the south, right,
(08:07):
south of America as opposed to south of England, you get,
you get a lot back right, and you get You
can see all these eyes wet up when you start
talking about roast dinners, because I see this in the
nicest possible way. All he loves a good roast dinner,
don't you.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
I quite like to cooking a nice race. So I
don't know if you if if this is a thing
in the States, but like over here, carberry is a thing.
So you go up and they put some help yourself
to the bed, and see, I don't like that. I
like someone. If I'm going out for a Sunday dinner,
I don't want to bring the Sunday dinner to me, yeah,
but I also liked to cook and a somethy dinner.
(08:47):
I was intrigued by the Sunday dinner because talking to
American friends and colleagues, we would say, we'd have like
a we can't see a lamb like a lamb Sunday dinner,
lamb rose dinner. A lot of my my friends and
colleagues in America are like, oh, well, I do like
a barbecue with lamb, or like the idea of having
(09:09):
a like a rose lamb is not quite the same
to them. So I was intrigued when you are sort
of your eyes a little with the with the idea
of the rose dinner.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
To be honest, well, I just like I like a
reason to indulge. I like a reason to to to
give up on an afternoon. You know, especially as I
get older. You know, I'm not tearing it up at
two in the morning, but I can tear it up
at like two in the afternoon.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
I don't think there's anything better than tearing it up
in the afternoon. I love a good afternoon to do.
But we know you're not a stranger to the UK.
We know you've you've traveled here before, but I just
wondered if there was some cultural differenceies that that kind
of made you laugh to yourself when you when you
arrive back in the year keys, anything that stands out
(10:01):
that is supremely odd. And I say that as a
Scots annoying female. There's a lot of audities in the
in the south of England, but I said, the say
of England only. I'm not I'm not pointing at you,
but there's a lot.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Of auditing disgusting.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
My My observation in that end comes to a reflection
on the the kind gentleman who rinted me my car
and uh, we rented a car and in Oxford your
Oxford and uh, and you know, I was a bit
nervous driving on the other side, was was a complexity
(10:36):
for me, especially the supersized roundabouts. We've got roundabouts here
but nothing like a five lane roundabout. And the gentleman
who ridden my car hit me the keys and he said,
stone faced. He said, remember the enemy attacks from the right.
And I was like that was all I needed. It
was beautiful. But I you know, in terms of oddities
(10:59):
about you know, culture, that's not mine. I mean, I
really don't see it like I really genuinely try to
watch and listen. And I don't see it all as odd.
I see it as like expansive, because it if I
can try to be quiet and watch a place and
watch a people, you know, I've always got my notebook.
(11:21):
I've got to hear beside me. You know, I just
love doing that. I love overhearing shards of conversation, writing
them down. I love watching somebody walk their dog. Like
everything is fascinating to me. I mean, I can picture
little moments of our trip. I remember when we were
in Cornwall. We were walking down from the place we
(11:43):
were staying down toward the cliff and the beach below,
and you know, I don't think I've ever seen a
lamb grazing in grass, and then there was the damn
cliff in the beach like that just blew my mind.
And I'm a small town kid from small town Georgia,
and that just was otherworldly to me. So I guess
(12:05):
the the oddities me with the physical qualities of the place.
People are people. People are easy, easy and fun to watch.
And if you if you act curious and are willing
to embarrass yourself, everybody will talk to you.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Use the word expansion then, which you bear with me
while I use this segue, because the SEC and the
SEC networking expanded, expanded its foothold, it's footprint if you will,
into Texas, into Oklahoma, and you you talked about that
(12:46):
in the show where you know, the SEC network pays
you to make the show and you now have an
expanded footwork. We we talked to the SEC Commissioner, Greg Sanki,
who he talked about bringing the SEC over to the
shoulder the UK for a game watch on that the
SEC network pays for True South International special I.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
Think you know we've actually talked about this. You know,
for the longest time, Europe was a release valve, a
place of solace for many Southerners, especially black Southerners. You know,
one of my favorite stories I've ever gotten to write
this was I don't know, this was twenty years ago.
(13:33):
I wrote a story about a place and I'm talking
about France now, but it's close about a place in
Mamart in Paris called Shay Haynes that was run by
a former football player who played at Mars. Brown was
an extra in Chitty Chitty Bang Bang and ran a
(13:53):
soul food cafe in Montmarte with a log cabin exterior
in a former lesbian bar. Like you know, there's a
lot and he served fried chicken and collar greens, although
he had to use broccoli leaves instead of real collar
greens scenes he couldn't get them. I mean, there's a
real way to connect, you know, various provinces of Europe
(14:16):
in the American South. There's a long exchange. You could
do that through the cotton markets of England as well,
straight back to the American South. There's historical waves there
and will continue to be there. I was fascinated by
speaking of Texas and I think about Austin and the
(14:37):
music scene in Austin, and probably the strongest comer on
this scene right now is Charlie Crockett. I bet y'all
have listened to Charlie Crockett. And everywhere we went in London,
everywhere we went to the Cotswells, everywhere we went in Cornwall,
Charlie Crockett was on the stereo. This is the guy
from Texas, you know, hard scrabble guy who's fought his way.
(15:00):
I think his music is amazing, but you know, the
porocity of cultures is the dominant way we live now.
There is rarely you know, these kind of siloed cultures.
Charlie Krack is big in Austin and he's big in London.
It makes sense to me.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
It's amazing the how I use the term Americana rather
than country right has just become a boom. Every every
big American artist that you can think of, has been
across these shores in the last twelve months. It is
quite something that there's certainly a I don't know whether
(15:41):
it's a root. I wouldn't call it a revival, but
there certainly a reviewge interest in it. Let's talk about
I'm conscious of time. Let's talk about true said, because
that's how we know you, and that's that's what we
what we love and allays already provided of any good
segue into this segment. How well, in terms of the
(16:01):
expansion of the conference and the expansion of your TV show,
how well do you think Texas and Oklahoma kind of
expands into the into the South? Would you have considered
them to be the South to begin with? But where
is the South? I guess is the is the question?
Speaker 3 (16:23):
I mean, you know, I'm not I don't say I'm
not going to answer this in this way to dodge
the answer. But it's going to sound like I'm dodging
the answer. But I'm not. To me, the South is
more a cultural construct than it is a geographical construct.
There are parts of Chicago where expatriate Mississippians live that
are as deeply and profoundly Southern as as the Mississippi
(16:45):
Delta an hour west of me. I will say that,
you know, even before this expansion, I considered Austin part
of the American South. You know, topographically the land changes
to the west of Austin. You go from green and
verdant to to to brown and not so verdant. You
(17:08):
can make an argument that the that the West begins
just west of Austin. But again, I'm not trying to
make a geographic argument. I'm trying to make a cultural one.
I think that the the culture of Texas is such
as aggressive is probably the right word. I was about
(17:29):
to curtail myself saying that. But it is such a
proud culture, in such an expressive culture, that sometimes it
can dominate the larger picture. I mean, I think that's
the case with our perception of of Austin. Austin is
also different in that, you know, the South has long
been a conversation between black and white, really, and in
(17:51):
Austin the conversation is black white. In Mexican American, that's
a difference, but it's not. It's not an excluding difference.
To me, though, the real insight I got from this
season was Oklahoma. And you know, there's a point in
the show we made about Oklahoma City where a Chickasaw
artist named Dustin Mater sits down to talk with me
(18:13):
at the First Americans Museum in Oklahoma City, and he
begins talking about Tupelo, which is, you know, forty minutes
from where I live. He begins talking about his love
of that place and his devotion to that land, and
the ways in which his ancestors consider that place still
their place. You know, y'all know that story. Your listeners
(18:33):
know this story, the removal of Native people from the
American South. Oklahoma City, and especially a conversation with Dustin
made me understand that in the same way I talked
to a moment ago about expatriot Mississippians in Chicago, the
people of Oklahoma City, especially the Native people of Oklahoma City,
(18:54):
our expatriot southerns in Oklahoma. The connections are really strong.
And I'm not playing to Greg Sankee here, It's just honest, Like,
if you travel out there and you talk to Native people,
you'll understand that the facets of Oklahoma City, at least
(19:16):
the ones we traveled, feel very deeply Southern because of
Native American presence.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Greg Sankey is an avid listener to this podcast. He
listens to it on his run in the morning, so
he will get that message. There's a lot of and
George is going to touch on this in a minute.
There's a lot of half felons. You touched on them
a little bit. There, half felt true stories of the
history of the culture of America that runs through the
(19:46):
very bands of true. So there's also the food element,
of course, and a large part of at least one
episode in this last series hot dogs. I want to
talk a little bit about hot dogs. Oh yeah, there
is a great, great story with a great short story
writer within this last series, and he kind of touched
(20:10):
on this a little bit. But why why is the
hot dog? Why does it have such air a reverence
and a special place in American culture.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
I mean, it is a small, d democratic food, It
is cheap, it is satisfying, and it allows for elaborations.
So you've got your base, You've got your bondy and
your dog, and then you add chili, you add onions,
you had cheese, you add kraut, you had whatever. Americans
(20:40):
like to elaborate things. They like to start with something
we all recognize and then make it their own. Think
about custom cars and Tom Wolf writing about the electric
candy kool Aid flake. I can't remember it's the streamline
electric flake, baby hell, I got the title wrong, anyway.
Think about the ways in which Americans love to elaborate
(21:03):
their cars. They do the same thing with their hot dogs.
It's also this food that, because it's so down cheap,
it feeds the working people. Hot Dogs were the preferred
mill hit, mill hand food of South Carolina, where that
episode about which you were talking was set. You know,
(21:25):
in and around Spartanburg, South Carolina mill culture. You need
a quick, good meal between shifts, you go to the
hot dog joint.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
And my life was changed when when I had a
chili dog out of bench chili bowl in Washington, d C.
I'd never never experienced anything like that, and I look
forward today, I can go back. They touched him not
for the first time. We've touched a lot on the
human interest stories. We talked about it less than the
last time that you came on the show, and it
(21:58):
was it wasn't it wasn't intended, But it was a
lovely segue that we had when you talked about, you know,
the kind of European angle, because so many of the
stories that you touch on either have had a very
similar effect or maybe originated on and you know, migrated
across to the to the state's coal mining be one
of them. You know, I come from a family who
(22:21):
involved in coal mining over the over the years and
could then absolutely kind of appreciate the Jasper Alabama episode.
But ye, so the thing that you can easily translates
to to our audience, I think it was a long,
long winded way of saying that we were you've touched
on some of them already, John t. But what were
(22:43):
some of the the stories that you enjoyed or maybe
hit your hardest when you were filming this season.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
I mean, the the Jasper Show, you know, the Father's
Son dynamics. The Jasper Show represented that for me too.
It was about what happens when coal mining is no
longer the driver of industry. But that episode, as well
as the Lexington, Tennessee episode of Barbecue Hole Hog episode
(23:13):
was about father and son. And you know, my father
died two years ago this past fall, at ninety six.
He died on the morning of his ninety sixth birthday.
And making these episodes this year about father and son
(23:35):
relationships and and what you pass on and what you
leave behind, and the possibilities of generational success, and what
fathers and sons do and don't say to each other,
and what limits that dialogue. All those things were on
my mind when we're making those two shows, and they
(23:55):
get at the heart of what we're trying to do
with True South, which is, yeah, it's a show about food,
but it's also a show about humans and the humans
or complicated buggers.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
I don't know. I don't know what it was about
the Jasper episode, but that rang true It really did.
I thought that was that was fantastic. But also I
think I mentioned in my email to you, the the
kind of South Carolina episode was also really very good.
So to be congratulated on that, I hope.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
I mean, we've heard from so many people who bought
George Singleton's short stories. If you want to start with something,
there's a collection called You Want More, and it's the
right title. You want more of George he is, uh,
you know this George on this podcast as well as
George Singleton the author. You always want more of George,
(24:46):
except maybe Ali. Ali might not want George. You may
have plenty of George.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
He protests too much. I think joined t to be honest.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
Regard George Ingleton the writer, and I hardly recommend him.
I mean, he knows the pathos at the heart of
all of this stuff. He knows the humor to find
in it too.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
What I thought was really beautifully done about that episode
as well is one of the great things about True
South is your narration of it, your voice telling the stories.
But I thought what was beautiful in my episode was
the amount of that he told the story and it
was just just incredibly well done. A lot of what
(25:29):
I do from a written perspective around college football centers
around human interest stories, and I absolutely love that element
of it. And I could talk to you all day
about the stories that come through on True South of
the individuals, but I want to end about food because
and my daughter in particular wanted me to ask you
(25:52):
what for for like a really good homemade mac and
cheese recipe. But before you give that, and you know
I'm being persumctious that that you would share such a secret,
where's the best place for you and all your experience
of traveling with Tree South and everything that you've done
with the two Legga Lions and everything you've been personally,
(26:12):
where's the best place you've ever had mac and cheese?
Speaker 3 (26:16):
Ooh ooh. I I can tell you the mac and
cheese that floats into my vision as you asked the question.
I can't say it's the best I've ever had. But
when I eat mac and cheese, like, I care mostly
about texture. Like every mac and cheese is gonna have macaroni,
(26:38):
and it's gonna have cheese. Some of them have egg
in it, and it has some lyft to it and
some kind of kind of custardiness to it from egg
and milk. But I like a mac and cheese where
the top has been broiled and there's almost like the
Italians called it freako. There's almost that that cheese turns
(27:01):
into a crisp, almost like a wafer. And the best
are both crisp and chewy. So any mac and cheese
I can get that has crispy stuff. If if somebody
is just if it's a bigger pot of it and
somebody's just serving me from the center and all I
get is creamy cheese and noodles, I just I want
(27:25):
to run screaming into the woods because that's not what
I want. I want the top and the sides. I
want the crispy, crispy, crunchy stuff. So the place I
can tell you the last I had, like that platonic
ideal with Silver Sands in Nashville, owned by Sophia Vaughn.
They were in our first season of True South. I
(27:46):
still keep in touch with Sophia. She runs I think
the best meat and three soul food place in the South.
She's an amazing human. She takes care of her people
by way have served on mac and cheese. But she
also like keeps BC powders and aspirin and titled al
(28:07):
back behind the counter because she knows that the people
coming in that place are hurting. They're working so hard,
they're beating themselves up. She takes care of them, She
hugs them, she loves on them. She feeds them mac
and cheese, and she gives them titlow when indeed it.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Do you put meat in mac and cheese? Put chicken
or anything like that? And or is it just going
to be solely the pasta and the cheese.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
Well, no meat, No it should you know, it's it's
counted as a vegetable in the South, so you can't
have well you could have meat, but no, just just
egg milk. Sometimes macaroni definitely cheddar. Usually a lot of
(28:52):
people want to fancy it up and put all sorts
of things in it. And I think we talked about
elaboration a moment ago. Elaboration is a fine thing, but
something's already elaborated enough, and you put enough cheese on it,
that's all you need.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
I mean, maybe maybe you think this is an aberration,
but I know in this so I hadn't really appreciated
until I started traveling a lot more to the States
about how much mac and cheese is as a staple
and as a proper site dish all of that kind
of stuff. With I was here, I think we get
a bit too adventurous with it, and there's lobster and
(29:27):
all sorts of nonsense that end up inside it. So yeah,
I can see your eyes rolling even just at the
thought of that.
Speaker 3 (29:38):
Sorry, John, It's gonna say one quick thing, like traveling
in the state, the lobster mac and cheese is like
it was cool a decade ago and now it's basically
the thing that bad restaurants do to try to tell
you they're a good restaurant.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Well, so I'm not really sure. I'm not really sure
I should say what I was about to say now
because we went to we went to a lovely seafood
restaurant in Cornwall, this kind of all tanks together very nicely.
We went now a couple of years ago and they
did a glorious like seafood mac and cheese.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
It was beautiful.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
Well, yeah, everybody, it wasn't about It wasn't a bad restaurant.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
I love the sparry lobsters there. I had lobster when
I was in Cornwall, May and that was great.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
See, but no back and cheese and cheese.
Speaker 3 (30:31):
Just a lobster and some drawing better and some lemon.
That's all I want. Nice ball.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
It is a criminal how quickly thirty minutes goes on
this podcast, So sadly that's all the time we have
to speak to John t and we really do thank
you for taking the time out at this juncture. We
normally ask our guests what they're up to and what
they're working on and all of that kind of good stuff,
which were which were really interested to do. But I
(30:58):
guess the pressing issues you've left us hanging on the
read with True South International? But when when does season
eight start production? When do you when do you kick
that off?
Speaker 3 (31:11):
We are in the middle of scouting now, we are
settling on our places. We go out and film in April.
April we got in film and then, if I can
be so bold has been self promotional. I think I'm
working on right now before we even start filming. As
I'm finishing out's on a memoir that'll call House of Smoke.
They'll be out in September, and I'm pretty pumped about that.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
We cool, so we'll watch out for that and I'm
sure you'll share it on your socials and we'll we'll
we'll help you out with them with that. That's that's
all from us on this episode. You can catch True
South on the SEC Network and also the Disney Channel.
Although I don't think we can get it in the UK. Yeah,
is that right? Oly, So we will have our work
(31:56):
with the Commissioner Sanky about that. Thanks again to join
to you and Oli for a betting, but thanks for listening.
Stay safe and well and catch you all next time.
I'm not going to comment on that.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
I'll get fine for the rest of my life if
I get comment.
Speaker 3 (00:04):
On that.
Speaker 4 (00:13):
National championship. He's that young Stirl.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Hey everyone, and welcome to the College Chaps podcast. Well
we never picked favorite guests, but our guest on this
episode has become a great friend of the show and
someone who we look forward to talking about at least
some point during the year. But first were the College Chaps.
I'm George and by my side as Ollie. Ollie, how
are you, my friend?
Speaker 2 (00:47):
I'm very tired, George. It's just now sixteen hours work
since the National Championship finished, and a long, long day yesterday,
but great and for the college football season and a
bit of a different flight there to our that's post
post national championship show, which I'm very judged. Don't think
(01:08):
we don't have favorite guests on this show. This is
absolutely one of my favorite guests that we have on
and the opportunity to debate a little bit away from
the normal that we talked about, which I'm very excited about.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
That pun intended when you talked about different flavor.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Absolutely, I've been working. I've been working on literally all.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Day and one of the great gifts this podcast has
given us, and I don't think we expected this at
the time, was the ability to get to know people
want to chat with them about a passion. So guest
today is kind enough to be a third time guest
and as an author, teacher and James Beard Award winner,
but we know I'm best as the host of the
excellent TV show True South. So it's awesome to welcome
(01:46):
back John T Edge, John T. Hi, how are you.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
I'm very well. I'm glad to be in y'all's virtual presence.
Y'all said very many nice things about me a moment ago,
and I'll return the favor. And then there's a reason
people listen to y'all because kindness comes through and I'm appreciative.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
So thanks, thank you, well, we appreciate that. That's all
the celebratory nonsense out of the way. Now the last time,
last time we spoke, which was just a little over
a year ago, because I listened to the episode this morning.
You were planning a trip to the UK and you
got across to the UK, and I think we thought
this would be a great starter because we talked to
(02:25):
you so much about traveling to the South. We thought
let's let's talk to John T about traveling to the
south of England. So how was how was the How
was the trip? And it just your kind? I know
we've got a short period of time, but what the
kind of highlights of the trip for you?
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Well, y'all tried to help us and we thought we
were going to Scotland and that didn't work out. We
ended up going to London and then out in the
cats Walls. It was my wife and I was our
twenty fifth wedding anniversary, so we wanted lux We want
a luxury and indulgence and we got it. We also
(03:05):
got time to work on projects my wife. When we
were in Cornwall, in this posh place called the Pig
in Cornwall and Harlan Bay, my wife fell in love
with a dovecot out back and painted one of the
paintings in her show. My wife's a clage artist in
(03:29):
one of the paintings was set in that dovecot in
the back of the Pig at Harlan Bay. So y'all
not only delivered on the posh but you also inspired
my wife in her painting, which made me really happy.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
One of the things that has inspired us over the
years of watching you work is obviously true South, that
is the connection between people and food, and American people
don't always come over to the UK and enjoy the
corner experience for one other, befraid because there is some
(04:05):
oddities to British cuisine. What were some of the things
that caught your eye if any while you're over here,
we have the opportunity to take in sort of the
English side of the corner experience.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
Yeah. I can recall eggs for breakfast. We stayed at
the Cali Experimental, the place where arguably Lewis Carroll saw
the rabbit go down the hole, and the eggs were
so like sunshine bright, and I asked the waiters, like,
(04:39):
why are these eggs psychedelic? And he said, well, we
feed them carrots and hot peppers, and I can. I
still crave those eggs. My wife and I still talk
about those eggs, both soft scramble, which is the way
I liked them, where they're still runny and ooey and gooey.
But I can remember those so well. And and I
(05:00):
remember a Sunday roast we had. That's that's kind of
I think my favorite thing that y'all do and do
so well, and I realized it's probably a touristy thing
to show up on that side of the pond in
search of Sunday roast. But I was therefore, and we
had that at a place called the Double Red Duke,
also out in the Cotswolves and I don't know, to
(05:24):
have a you know, to open a bottle of wine
and around one o'clock and cut into a big juicy
flank of steak and with nothing else on the agenda
except the nap that will follow around three. That's a
tradition I can lean into. I'll offer one more thing.
(05:45):
And this was when we were in London. We were
staying up near notting Hill and just wandering and there
was a you know, like some restaurants that have kind
of of a I don't know, an understated front to them.
They're usually a little cafe windows and there's maybe a
discreet name on the door, but there's a look of
confidence that a restaurant can project and you know like, Okay,
(06:09):
that place isn't trying too hard, that place knows what
it's doing. And for us, that was this restaurant called
Clark's and we were having a pretty uproarious center I
think we'd had a few cocktails before we sat down,
and Blair and I were cutting up. And my wife
has a tendency. I mentioned her art earlier. She had
(06:29):
a tendency to draw on the tablecloths with a pen
and she'll narrate a scene whatever it might happen. We're
having a great time and the guy who was sitting
across from us, and we didn't notice, you know, shouts
across the room. You know, hey, how y'all doing. And
we begin shouting back and forth across the room talking
(06:49):
to him, and next thing we knew he had sent
us a dessert of strawberries that were in right perfection.
At that point in this would have been June, yeah,
June right perfection. And we find out later in conversation
with him he's like the head of the Special Investigations
(07:10):
Force for the Madrid Police Force, and he was garrulous
and kind. And it's one of those things that you know,
when you travel, you either shrink in and you pretend
like you know, don't want to step in the wrong
puddle and don't want to step into the wrong conversation,
or you open up. And I think we really tried
(07:32):
on this trip to open up and then counter with
the dude from the special Forces of the Madrid you know,
instead of strawberries, like how beautiful was that? And there
were great strawberries.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
I agree with you. For many years when I traveled
a I would keep my mouth shut, not enter into it.
Right it kind of I don't know if you feel
slightly you know, not too positive, or call didn't about it.
But I find that when you do integrate, and some
of my based interactions have been in the south, right,
(08:07):
south of America as opposed to south of England, you get,
you get a lot back right, and you get You
can see all these eyes wet up when you start
talking about roast dinners, because I see this in the
nicest possible way. All he loves a good roast dinner,
don't you.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
I quite like to cooking a nice race. So I
don't know if you if if this is a thing
in the States, but like over here, carberry is a thing.
So you go up and they put some help yourself
to the bed, and see, I don't like that. I
like someone. If I'm going out for a Sunday dinner,
I don't want to bring the Sunday dinner to me, yeah,
but I also liked to cook and a somethy dinner.
(08:47):
I was intrigued by the Sunday dinner because talking to
American friends and colleagues, we would say, we'd have like
a we can't see a lamb like a lamb Sunday dinner,
lamb rose dinner. A lot of my my friends and
colleagues in America are like, oh, well, I do like
a barbecue with lamb, or like the idea of having
(09:09):
a like a rose lamb is not quite the same
to them. So I was intrigued when you are sort
of your eyes a little with the with the idea
of the rose dinner.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
To be honest, well, I just like I like a
reason to indulge. I like a reason to to to
give up on an afternoon. You know, especially as I
get older. You know, I'm not tearing it up at
two in the morning, but I can tear it up
at like two in the afternoon.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
I don't think there's anything better than tearing it up
in the afternoon. I love a good afternoon to do.
But we know you're not a stranger to the UK.
We know you've you've traveled here before, but I just
wondered if there was some cultural differenceies that that kind
of made you laugh to yourself when you when you
arrive back in the year keys, anything that stands out
(10:01):
that is supremely odd. And I say that as a
Scots annoying female. There's a lot of audities in the
in the south of England, but I said, the say
of England only. I'm not I'm not pointing at you,
but there's a lot.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Of auditing disgusting.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
My My observation in that end comes to a reflection
on the the kind gentleman who rinted me my car
and uh, we rented a car and in Oxford your
Oxford and uh, and you know, I was a bit
nervous driving on the other side, was was a complexity
(10:36):
for me, especially the supersized roundabouts. We've got roundabouts here
but nothing like a five lane roundabout. And the gentleman
who ridden my car hit me the keys and he said,
stone faced. He said, remember the enemy attacks from the right.
And I was like that was all I needed. It
was beautiful. But I you know, in terms of oddities
(10:59):
about you know, culture, that's not mine. I mean, I
really don't see it like I really genuinely try to
watch and listen. And I don't see it all as odd.
I see it as like expansive, because it if I
can try to be quiet and watch a place and
watch a people, you know, I've always got my notebook.
(11:21):
I've got to hear beside me. You know, I just
love doing that. I love overhearing shards of conversation, writing
them down. I love watching somebody walk their dog. Like
everything is fascinating to me. I mean, I can picture
little moments of our trip. I remember when we were
in Cornwall. We were walking down from the place we
(11:43):
were staying down toward the cliff and the beach below,
and you know, I don't think I've ever seen a
lamb grazing in grass, and then there was the damn
cliff in the beach like that just blew my mind.
And I'm a small town kid from small town Georgia,
and that just was otherworldly to me. So I guess
(12:05):
the the oddities me with the physical qualities of the place.
People are people. People are easy, easy and fun to watch.
And if you if you act curious and are willing
to embarrass yourself, everybody will talk to you.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Use the word expansion then, which you bear with me
while I use this segue, because the SEC and the
SEC networking expanded, expanded its foothold, it's footprint if you will,
into Texas, into Oklahoma, and you you talked about that
(12:46):
in the show where you know, the SEC network pays
you to make the show and you now have an
expanded footwork. We we talked to the SEC Commissioner, Greg Sanki,
who he talked about bringing the SEC over to the
shoulder the UK for a game watch on that the
SEC network pays for True South International special I.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
Think you know we've actually talked about this. You know,
for the longest time, Europe was a release valve, a
place of solace for many Southerners, especially black Southerners. You know,
one of my favorite stories I've ever gotten to write
this was I don't know, this was twenty years ago.
(13:33):
I wrote a story about a place and I'm talking
about France now, but it's close about a place in
Mamart in Paris called Shay Haynes that was run by
a former football player who played at Mars. Brown was
an extra in Chitty Chitty Bang Bang and ran a
(13:53):
soul food cafe in Montmarte with a log cabin exterior
in a former lesbian bar. Like you know, there's a
lot and he served fried chicken and collar greens, although
he had to use broccoli leaves instead of real collar
greens scenes he couldn't get them. I mean, there's a
real way to connect, you know, various provinces of Europe
(14:16):
in the American South. There's a long exchange. You could
do that through the cotton markets of England as well,
straight back to the American South. There's historical waves there
and will continue to be there. I was fascinated by
speaking of Texas and I think about Austin and the
(14:37):
music scene in Austin, and probably the strongest comer on
this scene right now is Charlie Crockett. I bet y'all
have listened to Charlie Crockett. And everywhere we went in London,
everywhere we went to the Cotswells, everywhere we went in Cornwall,
Charlie Crockett was on the stereo. This is the guy
from Texas, you know, hard scrabble guy who's fought his way.
(15:00):
I think his music is amazing, but you know, the
porocity of cultures is the dominant way we live now.
There is rarely you know, these kind of siloed cultures.
Charlie Krack is big in Austin and he's big in London.
It makes sense to me.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
It's amazing the how I use the term Americana rather
than country right has just become a boom. Every every
big American artist that you can think of, has been
across these shores in the last twelve months. It is
quite something that there's certainly a I don't know whether
(15:41):
it's a root. I wouldn't call it a revival, but
there certainly a reviewge interest in it. Let's talk about
I'm conscious of time. Let's talk about true said, because
that's how we know you, and that's that's what we
what we love and allays already provided of any good
segue into this segment. How well, in terms of the
(16:01):
expansion of the conference and the expansion of your TV show,
how well do you think Texas and Oklahoma kind of
expands into the into the South? Would you have considered
them to be the South to begin with? But where
is the South? I guess is the is the question?
Speaker 3 (16:23):
I mean, you know, I'm not I don't say I'm
not going to answer this in this way to dodge
the answer. But it's going to sound like I'm dodging
the answer. But I'm not. To me, the South is
more a cultural construct than it is a geographical construct.
There are parts of Chicago where expatriate Mississippians live that
are as deeply and profoundly Southern as as the Mississippi
(16:45):
Delta an hour west of me. I will say that,
you know, even before this expansion, I considered Austin part
of the American South. You know, topographically the land changes
to the west of Austin. You go from green and
verdant to to to brown and not so verdant. You
(17:08):
can make an argument that the that the West begins
just west of Austin. But again, I'm not trying to
make a geographic argument. I'm trying to make a cultural one.
I think that the the culture of Texas is such
as aggressive is probably the right word. I was about
(17:29):
to curtail myself saying that. But it is such a
proud culture, in such an expressive culture, that sometimes it
can dominate the larger picture. I mean, I think that's
the case with our perception of of Austin. Austin is
also different in that, you know, the South has long
been a conversation between black and white, really, and in
(17:51):
Austin the conversation is black white. In Mexican American, that's
a difference, but it's not. It's not an excluding difference.
To me, though, the real insight I got from this
season was Oklahoma. And you know, there's a point in
the show we made about Oklahoma City where a Chickasaw
artist named Dustin Mater sits down to talk with me
(18:13):
at the First Americans Museum in Oklahoma City, and he
begins talking about Tupelo, which is, you know, forty minutes
from where I live. He begins talking about his love
of that place and his devotion to that land, and
the ways in which his ancestors consider that place still
their place. You know, y'all know that story. Your listeners
(18:33):
know this story, the removal of Native people from the
American South. Oklahoma City, and especially a conversation with Dustin
made me understand that in the same way I talked
to a moment ago about expatriot Mississippians in Chicago, the
people of Oklahoma City, especially the Native people of Oklahoma City,
(18:54):
our expatriot southerns in Oklahoma. The connections are really strong.
And I'm not playing to Greg Sankee here, It's just honest, Like,
if you travel out there and you talk to Native people,
you'll understand that the facets of Oklahoma City, at least
(19:16):
the ones we traveled, feel very deeply Southern because of
Native American presence.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Greg Sankey is an avid listener to this podcast. He
listens to it on his run in the morning, so
he will get that message. There's a lot of and
George is going to touch on this in a minute.
There's a lot of half felons. You touched on them
a little bit. There, half felt true stories of the
history of the culture of America that runs through the
(19:46):
very bands of true. So there's also the food element,
of course, and a large part of at least one
episode in this last series hot dogs. I want to
talk a little bit about hot dogs. Oh yeah, there
is a great, great story with a great short story
writer within this last series, and he kind of touched
(20:10):
on this a little bit. But why why is the
hot dog? Why does it have such air a reverence
and a special place in American culture.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
I mean, it is a small, d democratic food, It
is cheap, it is satisfying, and it allows for elaborations.
So you've got your base, You've got your bondy and
your dog, and then you add chili, you add onions,
you had cheese, you add kraut, you had whatever. Americans
(20:40):
like to elaborate things. They like to start with something
we all recognize and then make it their own. Think
about custom cars and Tom Wolf writing about the electric
candy kool Aid flake. I can't remember it's the streamline
electric flake, baby hell, I got the title wrong, anyway.
Think about the ways in which Americans love to elaborate
(21:03):
their cars. They do the same thing with their hot dogs.
It's also this food that, because it's so down cheap,
it feeds the working people. Hot Dogs were the preferred
mill hit, mill hand food of South Carolina, where that
episode about which you were talking was set. You know,
(21:25):
in and around Spartanburg, South Carolina mill culture. You need
a quick, good meal between shifts, you go to the
hot dog joint.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
And my life was changed when when I had a
chili dog out of bench chili bowl in Washington, d C.
I'd never never experienced anything like that, and I look
forward today, I can go back. They touched him not
for the first time. We've touched a lot on the
human interest stories. We talked about it less than the
last time that you came on the show, and it
(21:58):
was it wasn't it wasn't intended, But it was a
lovely segue that we had when you talked about, you know,
the kind of European angle, because so many of the
stories that you touch on either have had a very
similar effect or maybe originated on and you know, migrated
across to the to the state's coal mining be one
of them. You know, I come from a family who
(22:21):
involved in coal mining over the over the years and
could then absolutely kind of appreciate the Jasper Alabama episode.
But ye, so the thing that you can easily translates
to to our audience, I think it was a long,
long winded way of saying that we were you've touched
on some of them already, John t. But what were
(22:43):
some of the the stories that you enjoyed or maybe
hit your hardest when you were filming this season.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
I mean, the the Jasper Show, you know, the Father's
Son dynamics. The Jasper Show represented that for me too.
It was about what happens when coal mining is no
longer the driver of industry. But that episode, as well
as the Lexington, Tennessee episode of Barbecue Hole Hog episode
(23:13):
was about father and son. And you know, my father
died two years ago this past fall, at ninety six.
He died on the morning of his ninety sixth birthday.
And making these episodes this year about father and son
(23:35):
relationships and and what you pass on and what you
leave behind, and the possibilities of generational success, and what
fathers and sons do and don't say to each other,
and what limits that dialogue. All those things were on
my mind when we're making those two shows, and they
(23:55):
get at the heart of what we're trying to do
with True South, which is, yeah, it's a show about food,
but it's also a show about humans and the humans
or complicated buggers.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
I don't know. I don't know what it was about
the Jasper episode, but that rang true It really did.
I thought that was that was fantastic. But also I
think I mentioned in my email to you, the the
kind of South Carolina episode was also really very good.
So to be congratulated on that, I hope.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
I mean, we've heard from so many people who bought
George Singleton's short stories. If you want to start with something,
there's a collection called You Want More, and it's the
right title. You want more of George he is, uh,
you know this George on this podcast as well as
George Singleton the author. You always want more of George,
(24:46):
except maybe Ali. Ali might not want George. You may
have plenty of George.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
He protests too much. I think joined t to be honest.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
Regard George Ingleton the writer, and I hardly recommend him.
I mean, he knows the pathos at the heart of
all of this stuff. He knows the humor to find
in it too.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
What I thought was really beautifully done about that episode
as well is one of the great things about True
South is your narration of it, your voice telling the stories.
But I thought what was beautiful in my episode was
the amount of that he told the story and it
was just just incredibly well done. A lot of what
(25:29):
I do from a written perspective around college football centers
around human interest stories, and I absolutely love that element
of it. And I could talk to you all day
about the stories that come through on True South of
the individuals, but I want to end about food because
and my daughter in particular wanted me to ask you
(25:52):
what for for like a really good homemade mac and
cheese recipe. But before you give that, and you know
I'm being persumctious that that you would share such a secret,
where's the best place for you and all your experience
of traveling with Tree South and everything that you've done
with the two Legga Lions and everything you've been personally,
(26:12):
where's the best place you've ever had mac and cheese?
Speaker 3 (26:16):
Ooh ooh. I I can tell you the mac and
cheese that floats into my vision as you asked the question.
I can't say it's the best I've ever had. But
when I eat mac and cheese, like, I care mostly
about texture. Like every mac and cheese is gonna have macaroni,
(26:38):
and it's gonna have cheese. Some of them have egg
in it, and it has some lyft to it and
some kind of kind of custardiness to it from egg
and milk. But I like a mac and cheese where
the top has been broiled and there's almost like the
Italians called it freako. There's almost that that cheese turns
(27:01):
into a crisp, almost like a wafer. And the best
are both crisp and chewy. So any mac and cheese
I can get that has crispy stuff. If if somebody
is just if it's a bigger pot of it and
somebody's just serving me from the center and all I
get is creamy cheese and noodles, I just I want
(27:25):
to run screaming into the woods because that's not what
I want. I want the top and the sides. I
want the crispy, crispy, crunchy stuff. So the place I
can tell you the last I had, like that platonic
ideal with Silver Sands in Nashville, owned by Sophia Vaughn.
They were in our first season of True South. I
(27:46):
still keep in touch with Sophia. She runs I think
the best meat and three soul food place in the South.
She's an amazing human. She takes care of her people
by way have served on mac and cheese. But she
also like keeps BC powders and aspirin and titled al
(28:07):
back behind the counter because she knows that the people
coming in that place are hurting. They're working so hard,
they're beating themselves up. She takes care of them, She
hugs them, she loves on them. She feeds them mac
and cheese, and she gives them titlow when indeed it.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Do you put meat in mac and cheese? Put chicken
or anything like that? And or is it just going
to be solely the pasta and the cheese.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
Well, no meat, No it should you know, it's it's
counted as a vegetable in the South, so you can't
have well you could have meat, but no, just just
egg milk. Sometimes macaroni definitely cheddar. Usually a lot of
(28:52):
people want to fancy it up and put all sorts
of things in it. And I think we talked about
elaboration a moment ago. Elaboration is a fine thing, but
something's already elaborated enough, and you put enough cheese on it,
that's all you need.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
I mean, maybe maybe you think this is an aberration,
but I know in this so I hadn't really appreciated
until I started traveling a lot more to the States
about how much mac and cheese is as a staple
and as a proper site dish all of that kind
of stuff. With I was here, I think we get
a bit too adventurous with it, and there's lobster and
(29:27):
all sorts of nonsense that end up inside it. So yeah,
I can see your eyes rolling even just at the
thought of that.
Speaker 3 (29:38):
Sorry, John, It's gonna say one quick thing, like traveling
in the state, the lobster mac and cheese is like
it was cool a decade ago and now it's basically
the thing that bad restaurants do to try to tell
you they're a good restaurant.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Well, so I'm not really sure. I'm not really sure
I should say what I was about to say now
because we went to we went to a lovely seafood
restaurant in Cornwall, this kind of all tanks together very nicely.
We went now a couple of years ago and they
did a glorious like seafood mac and cheese.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
It was beautiful.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
Well, yeah, everybody, it wasn't about It wasn't a bad restaurant.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
I love the sparry lobsters there. I had lobster when
I was in Cornwall, May and that was great.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
See, but no back and cheese and cheese.
Speaker 3 (30:31):
Just a lobster and some drawing better and some lemon.
That's all I want. Nice ball.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
It is a criminal how quickly thirty minutes goes on
this podcast, So sadly that's all the time we have
to speak to John t and we really do thank
you for taking the time out at this juncture. We
normally ask our guests what they're up to and what
they're working on and all of that kind of good stuff,
which were which were really interested to do. But I
(30:58):
guess the pressing issues you've left us hanging on the
read with True South International? But when when does season
eight start production? When do you when do you kick
that off?
Speaker 3 (31:11):
We are in the middle of scouting now, we are
settling on our places. We go out and film in April.
April we got in film and then, if I can
be so bold has been self promotional. I think I'm
working on right now before we even start filming. As
I'm finishing out's on a memoir that'll call House of Smoke.
They'll be out in September, and I'm pretty pumped about that.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
We cool, so we'll watch out for that and I'm
sure you'll share it on your socials and we'll we'll
we'll help you out with them with that. That's that's
all from us on this episode. You can catch True
South on the SEC Network and also the Disney Channel.
Although I don't think we can get it in the UK. Yeah,
is that right? Oly, So we will have our work
(31:56):
with the Commissioner Sanky about that. Thanks again to join
to you and Oli for a betting, but thanks for listening.
Stay safe and well and catch you all next time.
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