August 7, 2025 • 42 mins
Pastor Chuck Baldwin joins the David Knight Show to discuss Romans 13 and how it has been twisted and used as a tool of control as well as Zionism and the insidious influence it has had on American Christians.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
All right, joining us now.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
We're honored to have a pastor Chuck Baldwin of Liberty
Fellowship in Montana. You can find the website at Libertyfellowship,
mt from Montana dot com. Also Chuck Baldwin Live dot com.
Thank you for joining us.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Sir David's quickly with you. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
It's been a long time since we've talked. Because of
timing and scheduling and things like that, you're only able
to do interviews in the afternoon. I wasn't able to
do that at Info Wars.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
But we're able to do that here.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
So I want to get you back on with what
is happening now. You've got a book that you're selling
at your website. We'll get into that a little bit.
But last time I interviewed you, we talked about another
book that you and your son had done, Romans thirteen,
and it seems like people did not understand Romans thirteen
(01:00):
or I don't think that we would have gone through
what we went through in twenty twenty with lockdown churches
and all the rest of stuff. I remember when we talked,
you know, the standard line was you do whatever the
government says unless they start infringing on your religious freedom
and said the time, I don't believe that they're going
(01:21):
to stand up for their religious freedom if they take
that tact. And of course we saw when the lockdown
happened under Trump that they didn't tell us a little
bit about your opinion about what happened with that and
the aftermath of it.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Well, I think what we saw was exactly the open
demonstration of what you and I had discussed. Yeah, that
is that the Walton took the case of Romans thirteen,
and you alluded to the book that my attorney's son
and I wrote, Romans thirteen is true meaning of submission,
(02:00):
And we took all of the verses in well not all,
but the vast majority of the verses in both Testaments
Old and Knew to show that nowhere does God command
his people to submit to evil authority, and that doctrine
of submission to civil authority, per the first couple of
(02:22):
verses of Roman Stepter thirteen, has made sheepy servants of
the state out of what should have been and once
were courageous, bold men of God, unafraid to speak truth
to power and to resist the attempts of those in authority.
(02:44):
To make slaves out of God's people. We are servants
to only one and that's Jesus Christ. So I think
that the doctrine, the false doctrine of Romans thirteen, as
it has been taught the not a part of the
twentieth century and in the twenty first century, has produced
(03:06):
exactly everything that we saw a demonstrated during the Covid tyranny.
And I think the evidence of that still continues today.
But you know, before, you know, it was always about
something that they consider to be non biblical. You know,
if you are talking about abortion, if you are talking
about the intrusion of our Fourth Amendment liberties and invasion
(03:31):
of our privacy and the Second Amendment and all of
these these issues constitutional issues, these Romans thirteen preachers in
Christians would say, well, you know, God's called me to
preach the Gospel, and I'm not going to preach that.
I'm not going to get involved in all these quote
unquote political things. And when you know, when they tell
me I can't preach the Gospel, then then I'll show
(03:53):
you know, some resistance. And they would they would pu
who any attempt to stand for basic fundamental God given
liberties and they use Must thirteen as a cop out. Well,
then COVID came along and guess what they said. You
can't meet in your church services, you can't preach, you
(04:17):
can't assemble, you can't observe your Resurrection Day services, observe
the birth of Christ. I mean all these are now,
these are not constitutional issues. These are you know, basic
fundamental biblical issues. And pastors just rolled over shut the churches,
(04:43):
didn't have have, you know, their meetings, They shut down
their operations entirely, and they proved that they are truly
nothing more than slaves of the state. So I think
that was a great wake up call to the condition
of the church.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
I agree, and a big part of that is that
they want to at all costs avoid any kind of
political controversy.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
You don't do that.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
And I appreciate that you speak to what people are
living in their daily life and you say, this is
how we think the biblical principles apply here. And I
think that is something that sadly missing in most of
the church. And we had a lot of people. There
were a few churches that never closed, and I interviewed
some of those pastors. There were some churches that closed
(05:31):
for a while then just kind of came to their
senses or whatever and reopened up, and some of them
talked about the fact that they got it wrong, that
they interpreted that wrong, and they would never do it again.
But there were some very big churches that did not
go back, even though they opened up, and even though
they had fights, they never went back and corrected their
(05:52):
commentaries or their statements on their website or what they
told people about Romans thirteen. And I think that's very important. Yeah,
I mean, we can all make mistakes. We can all
make mistakes, but we need to be public about it.
The way I look at it, a lot of people
who shut down for four or five months and then
opened up and then got into big fights with the
(06:13):
government over it, they just kind of ignored what had
happened those first four or five months.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
I think that's kind.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Of like a pastor who's been caught an adulterous affair
just kind of say, well, let's forget about that, will
move on.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
You know. Yeah, it's hard for I don't know why,
but it's we've reached a point in our in our
history were I don't know, somehow it's a sign of
weakness or something if you acknowledge that you were wrong
and what you taught from the pulpit. I mean, I've
(06:48):
reme into this with the designers issue and big, big time.
That's you know. But you know, for example, there was
John MacArthur who recently passed away, a pastor of a
large church in southern California, well known writer and broadcaster.
(07:09):
He was a man that four decades throughout his career,
he would impune pastors around the country who would resist
governmental usurpation of their power to intrude upon the freedom
(07:30):
of speech and the freedom of religion, and go forth
on even the freedom of assembly in certain cases, and
he would castigate them as being disobedient to Romans thirteen.
And he was one of the most foremost advocates of
(07:50):
the false doctumne of Romans thirteen in the country, and
because of his influence, he impacted a lot of fellow pastors.
Then when COVID hit and his church was hit personally
there in California, you know how California was about everything,
(08:12):
and so he actually reversed his position on that issue,
and he challenged the authority of the state of California
to close his church, and so forth, and he actually
was willing to go to court to fight it. So
I admire him for doing that. But Bill, to your point,
(08:32):
he never one time during all that period of contest
between him and the State of California, he never one
time public had got up and said, you know, I
was wrong in the past. You know, all these other
issues that men of God, you know, we're fighting a
long time before I fought this issue. You know, they
(08:55):
were fighting issues of freedom and faith for a long time,
and some of them were paying a very heavy price,
were resisting, and he never took their side. He always
condemned them for violating when I was thirteen. Now he's
doing the same thing, and he's resisting the you know
the I.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Remember when that happened.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
He shut down from what was at March till about
in July or whatever, and then they opened up. I
think really the final straw when they said all right,
all right, you can get together, but you can't sing.
It's like, okay, we're done with this nonsense. But like
you said, he didn't go back and change his commentaries
or anything. And a year later you had Todd Friel,
(09:37):
who was also fairly well known on YouTube and other
places and very connected to MacArthur. As they were getting
ready to roll out the vaccine mandates in September, he
said in August again, you know the Romans thirteen line,
and he said, and look, John MacArthur says this, this
is this, And I played the clip and I said, yeah,
(09:59):
but that's not what John McArthur has been doing for
the last year. Maybe you need to take a look
at the difference between what he said in his former
commentaries and what he's actually doing today. And I thought
that was what cod Friel said. I call him pinwheel
freel because he said, if government tells you wear pinwheels
on your head, you wear pinwheels on your head. It's like, yeah,
(10:19):
but you don't have to become a pincushion for a
poisonous kool aid injection.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
That's the insanity of all this stuff.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
But yeah, I think when I look at it, let
me get your take on this, I look at it
as from in a political sphere. When they become when
they're installed in their office, government employees swear to pull
the Constitution and so their authority comes from the Constitution
and it comes from their fealty to it. And if
(10:51):
they are in rebellion to the Constitution, they don't have
any authority. And I see Romas thirteen in the same
way that you know Romas thirteen. He talks about authority
coming from God. He's established these governments. Well, how do
we know if it's a legitimate government. Well, we can
take a look at what they're doing. And if what
they're doing is in a rebellion to God, then they
(11:14):
don't have authority. It's just like if they were rebelling
against the Constitution.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
What do you think I think I mean?
Speaker 3 (11:21):
In our book, we make that, we make that very
clear that Romans thirteen was not giving a blank check
to civil authority to run roughshod over the God given
liberties of the people. In fact, that that same passage
(11:43):
in Romans chapter thirteen that talks in the early verses
about submitted to the higher power. And you keep reading
and they always stop at verse two, but reading it
like for example of verse three, for rulers. Civil rulers
(12:05):
are not a terror to good works, but to evil.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
Well, so then be afraid the power do that which
is good. That's out praise are the same for he
is the verse verse four, he is the minister of
God to be for good. So at the same time
that Roman's thirteen tells us to admit to government, it's
telling government that government has the responsibility to be good, righteous,
(12:34):
and just in their implementation of law. And if they
are not good, righteous and just in their implication of law,
there is no implication in the duty of the Christian
to submit to that evil. I mean, so that's like saying, Okay,
(12:54):
you know, if the government commands you to do such
and such, which is obviously evil, unjust, immoral, et cetera,
you have no moral authority to submit to that. In fact,
you have a moral authority to resist that.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
I agree.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
Well, that's a part of the entire passage. So yes,
it's a twofold. You know, it's a responsibility on government
to be good and righteous adjust and when government is good,
righteous and just, and you should have the support of
the people. But when government is not good, righteous and just,
(13:31):
it should not have supported the people. So that is
clearly defined in Roman Scepter thirteen as well, because I
just choose to skip over those verses.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Yes, yes, I absolutely agree. Well, we're talking about civil government.
We just had the eightieth anniversary of Hiroshima. I'm curious
to get your take on this and if you think
that fits in and what I look we talk about
frequently is a just war theory, which was something that's
been put out by many Christians trying to restrain the
(14:05):
evil of war as much as possible, and trying to
restrain the way that it's conducted and the conditions under
which it has fought.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
How do you view Hiroshima.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
All. I think it was one of the greatest greatest
tragedies in US history. I think it's it is an
everlasting blight on the reputation of a nation that was
supposed to be the city on the hill, the nation
that at the standard of good government, honesty in government,
(14:42):
righteousness and government, a protector of humanity, a protector of life,
a protector of freedom, all everything that America was stolid on,
you know, the goodness of government and the righteousness and
the accountability of government to we the people. And they
(15:05):
were straight on government by the constitution and the rule
of law over the will of man, and all these
principles upon which America was founded. When we dropped those
bombs on Nagasaki and Niroshima, atomic bombs by the way
(15:26):
we're the only nation in the history of the world
that was ever used in the Yes, what a reputation.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
And on a civilian target as well, And that's the
key thing, isn't it the civilians and they're not a
civilian target?
Speaker 1 (15:41):
And I think that's the key thing. Isn't it the.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Fact that and that was that was really kind of
a hallmark, a turning point, I think in World War
Two of attacking civilians and both sides did it. There
was a bombing of London, then they retaliated with Dresden
and Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and it's really heinous. It's something
that I think Western civilization kind of went straight down
the tubes with that.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
We haven't recovered since then.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
No, In fact, I think we're still seeing it being
played out today in the genocide.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
And gossp Yes, exactly.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
And the way that the American government is supporting the
want and slaughter, genocide, identic cleansing, all of the above
committed by Israel with America's total support. We're supplying the weapons,
the bombs, the missiles, the munitions, with the intelligence you know,
CIA and Masada working hand in hand to implement all
(16:36):
this all this atrocity, and you know, all that I
think is just a continuation of what happened at the
end of World War Two. With the dropping of those
two upcoming bombs, we lost. It did more than then
just kill undreds of thousands of innocent civilian Japanese People's
(17:00):
hear the conscience of the American government.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
That's a good way where.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
The American government felt like, well, we have we have
the right. We are morally superior to anyone else in
the world. We can define goodness and righteousness as we
want to. We are the exceptional nation and we have
the power to do it, and so we can do
(17:25):
anything we want. And so we are seeing that today
in twenty twenty five, which is just a continuation of
the false war doctrum, the unjust war doctrine of the
end of World War two.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
I absolutely I agree. Yeah many times the excuses made
by Depentagon on others that well, that allowed us in
the war early. But if they had used that against
military forces, I think it would have had the same effect.
The key thing is that the targeting of civilians, which
is what we're seeing in God now, and the idea
(18:02):
that we don't start wars now we start wars preemptively,
and that was in the beginning of World War Two.
That was something that was a day of infamy when
the Japanese bomb Pearl Harbor. Now, of course we know
that FDR stood down and invited that in many different ways. Nevertheless,
for them to initiate war that has still been everybody
(18:26):
understands that. You know, there's always an argument as to
who began the war. We see that argument playing out
between Israel and Gaza. We said, argument playing out between
Russia and Ukraine. So everybody understands that that is unjust.
And what I'm concerned about when I look at what's
happening with Israel and with much of this other stuff
that Christians are cheering, is that even atheists and Pagans
(18:50):
understand instinctively the right and wrong about starting wars, the
right and wrong about targeting civilians and sustaining this when
there's no threat to you. And it is really amazing
to me to see Christians who are sharing this.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
Type of thing.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
But of course that is coming out of well, I
think is a bad theology. And you've got a book
that addresses that, the incredible Schofield and his book I
think you have on your website tells a little bit
about that.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
Yeah, that is the most thoroughly documented and fully researched
biography of Cyrus Schofield ever written. And when you were
talking about what you just said that the whole emphasus
behind that is build Field. Futurism also called dispensationalism, also
(19:46):
called person Zionism, and it was started not by Scholfield,
but by a man named John Darby, who was a
generation in front of Billfield, but they overlapped in the
latter years of Darby's life and a Darby disciple, by
(20:08):
the way, the idea of a rapture by a pre
second coming resurrection of Christian people, that concept was never
taught in church history from the time of Jesus all
the way up until the mid eighteen hundreds. Yes, so
(20:30):
for over eighteen hundred years there was never a doctrine
called the rapture or dispensationalism or futurism, we'll call what
you will.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
And yet now that is pretty much taken over. That's
pretty much taken over in terms of American Christianity.
Speaker 3 (20:46):
Has oh yeah, absolutely dominant. Yeah, But the history of
it is there was a Prophecy conference in Glasgow, Gotland,
and I think the year was eighteen thirty and there
was a a woman who self identified trans channeler Margaret
(21:08):
mc donald I believe was a name, and she spoke
in this conference and you know, this whole trans channeling stuff,
that's that's the mind, and she went into a trance
on stage and she started to babble forth this two
stage return of Christ, with the book called Rapture being
(21:33):
stage number one. And that was that was the first
time that I can find in my research where in
church history that doctrine was taught. And it wasn't really
even taught. It wasn't a pastor getting up and expounding
the scriptures. It was this demonic trans channeler that went
(21:55):
into a trance and you know, said that this is
what she was shown by the spirit and all this
kind of stuff. So the whole beginning of the Rapture
was demonic in my view. Well, anyway, it was picked
up by the founder of the Plymouth brother by the
name of John Darby. He became the champion of this doctrine.
(22:16):
He had a man that disciples of B. S. Scholfield,
who was young at the time and Schofield was a
con man. He was a fraud. He was a thief.
He spent six months in jail for a fraud. He
was a deserter of his family. He walked out on
(22:38):
his wife. And now we're talking. You know, this is
the mid eighteen hundreds. There was no social security, there
was no welfare, there were no benefits. I mean he
just left his two little girls and his wife. He
you know, gave himself a lawyer title. He never went
(23:00):
to law school. He never he was never a lawyer,
but he put a law degree behind his name and
he started working in law after his so called conversion
and he got onto his religious kick. He gave himself
a theological degree that he never earned. He never went
(23:20):
to college. But you know, if you if you look
at the Schoolfield Bible, I'll say virus I Scholfield d
d Well. That's just the degree that he gave himself.
I mean, this man was a fraud's fraud. He was
the conman's comman. I mean he's you know, he would
(23:41):
have made P. T. Barnum jealous. Yeah, this and this
is the guy that founded what we now know is
Christmas is over Schoolfield futurisms, and the thing that the
genius of it, the thing that made it. Sufficely say,
why how did this sweep the country and become vogue,
(24:05):
you know, and seminaries and Bible colleges and churches all
across the United States. The genius of it was. I
got to explain this to you just a minute to
help you understand how this became so popular. It didn't
become popular because of the doctrine. It didn't become popular
because of what was being said in the Bible until
(24:29):
the Thomas Schofield Bible dollars. You go back into the
post Reformation days like Adam Clark and Ala Barnes and
Matthew Henry and John Gill and all these James and
Fosset and Brown, you name it. All these commentators. Whenever
(24:51):
they would study the Scripture, they would they would write
their commentaries in a separate book. They would not put
their words on the same page as the words of God,
because they had such a holy reverence for the words
of God that they felt it would be sacrilege for
(25:14):
them to put their words their commentaries in the same
page as the scripture. Well, therefore they would write their
books in a separate and a complete, separate volume. So
if you wanted to read the Matthew Henard commentaries, for example,
the classic foremost commentary of all the time, you would
(25:39):
have to have your open Bible on one side of
the desk and then your open Matthew Henry commentary on
the other side of the desk and look back and forth.
And that's how you had to study and learn. So
what Schopfield did He ignored that and he put his
comments on the same page as the Bible, so whenever
(26:01):
you open the Bible, you had the scripture versus and
his commentary on the same page. Well, this was a
breakthrough in that it was such a convenience for people.
You didn't have to carry two books around, you know,
to look back and forth. You could just open the
(26:21):
Bible and you had the commentary and the Bible on
the same page. So it was a marketing tool.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
Yeah, yeah, we see that today.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
I walk into a Bible store and they've got a
different They got a Bible for different professions let's say, right,
you know, or for men or for women or whatever,
and they dress up the cover and they'll have stuff
in there about the profession or this or that, and
they'll try to tie it into whatever section of the Bible.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Then, but it's all about marketing, all.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
Right, right, And then all got that from Skillfield. He's
the one that started that. And that's and that's why
a big name is so popular. Wasn't because of what
he wrote. It was because of the marketing tool in
the way that the book was published, and of course
it was financed by Oxford Press. Oxford Press was owned
by Zionists. The Zionist agenda was promoted in Scholfield. Bullfield
(27:19):
was an uneducated man. He never finished any kind of
formal education. He was intelligent, he was articulate. He knew
how to talk, he knew how to read, he did
teach himself and all that kind of thing, but he
did not know theology in any state man or form.
(27:40):
The only thing he knew was what he was taught
by by Darby, and he simply regurgitated Darbyism, which became
school Filism. During the time of Darby, he was a
contemporary of the great preacher, maybe the greatest Baptist pressure
revolve time, Charlesbury, London, Zeland. And whenever he started hearing
(28:05):
the doctrines of Darby and this split resurrection theory of
a pre second coming rapture and prid built some of
the artribulation and all that stuff. Chryls Spurgeon publicly refudiated. Yeah,
Darby is. And he warned the church if they, you know,
(28:26):
if they followed this, it was going to lead the disaster.
But when Skolf came along and published his Bible, that
sealed the deal. And then the seminaries and the Bible
colleges started picking it up, and then the passengers started
picking it up. And today eighty percent of evangelicals buy
into Christian Zionism. It's a monster.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Yeah, yeah, And you know when you look at this,
Christ told us that the way we'll know false teachers
and false doctrine is by their fruit. And I would
say the fruit has been really, really bad of this.
And that's one of the things I've told people. I said, look,
you know, everybody's got their complicated eschatology charts and everything.
It's like, let's just take a look at what you're
(29:12):
the result of what this teaching is getting you to do.
It's getting you to cheer the starvation and murder of children,
and maybe you should go back and take a second look,
because your eschatology should not be trumping the obvious principles
are laid out in the in the Bible.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
For us, the legacy of cis Cofield is the genocide
in Gossip. Yeah, the slaughter everything that is happening in
the America. Support for it. And let's say so, let's
let's be real. I mean, there's a lot of reasons
(29:52):
why America is supporting this genocide and gossip. They support
anything as Reel does. And of course we all know
about the Israel lobby a PAC and you know dozens
of other lobby groups representing Israel are are literally buying
(30:15):
the US Congress. Yes, members of both parties. I mean
the starting that that stranglehold is starting to crack a
little bit because of the utter grotesqueness of the slaughter
of the innocence in Gaza.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Yes, and I think it was becoming.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
I think that along with the appearents of Ted kruz
On with Tucker crass And I've got a lot of
issues with Tucker Crasson, but he kind of laid that
out there, just like, what can you explain that? Can
you defend that? And of course he couldn't yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:47):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
And I think a lot of people saw that and
start scratching their head and say, wait a minute, maybe
there's something really wrong here, and there is there is
something really wrong that.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
Yeah, that wasn't That wasn't an interview interview, David, that
was a snuff film. Uh. I mean, uh, Tucker just
just slaughtered Uh. Senator cruns. Maybe it look like the
idiot that he is. But you know, aside from the
(31:15):
stranglehold of the APAC lobby on Congress in the White House,
which is massive, I'm not diminishing that at all. I mean,
it's it's it's ungodly the way our Congress is being
bought by a foreign government, the Israel lobby. I mean,
it's it's it's unconstitutional, it's illegal, it's a moral it's
(31:39):
an American it's it's it's it's everything bad in the world.
You know, that's happening through APACK and the Israel lobby.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
Remember when Trump said is used to own Congress, and
he said, rightfully, so.
Speaker 3 (31:53):
They do wres that Congress. But but but the reason
that that's able to be successful, this is my point,
is that that couldn't work if the evangelical churches of
the country were not supporting it.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
I agree, because they're.
Speaker 3 (32:11):
Providing the moral and spiritual cover for this. You know,
if the great notable preachers of the day, the ones
who have the giant platforms and are speaking to hundreds
of thousands of people and have the ear of so
many folks in our country, if they would stand up
(32:35):
and preach the truth about Israel, about the New Covenant,
about you know, what is right and wrong in the
eyes of God under the New Covenant, and the truth
about biblical Israel, expose the Christian Zionism for the falsehood
that it is, and really speak truth to power, they
(32:57):
would be able to negate the power of the Israel lobby,
and they have the power to change the course of
the country. I'm talking about the Pulpits of America, the pastors.
This has always been the case, I agree, But because
they're providing cover morally and spiritually for what Israel is doing,
(33:18):
there's no incentive for anyone to change course.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
You know, for the longest time, I really.
Speaker 3 (33:24):
Put the blame for this at the feet of the Pulpits.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
I agree.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
For the longest time I've looked at these a lot
of these churches very left wing churches that'll have their
rainbow celebrations, you know, where it's basically a worship service
for LGBT. And I look at that and it's like,
you know that is you know what is the matter
with these people? And the people on the right, well
look at that and just shake their head and say,
you know they have they're not worshiping Christ, They're worshiping
(33:51):
something else that is against Christ. And yet the conservatives
do the same thing. We got a lot of churches,
Cage's Church, who is just basically a worship service for
a political entity, a foreign government Israel, and I see
that as being an exact correlation to what's happening with
(34:12):
the progressive leftist churches and what they're doing with LGBT
or with CRT or whatever, you know, DEI that type
of thing. They have their leftist ideology and they worship it.
And the right is doing that as well. And as
people are trying to speak against abortion, against child mutilation
and these other things, we've got people who are looking
(34:36):
at the vast majority of Christians who are applauding what's
going on in Israel because of their eschatology, and they're
shaking their heads and saying, you know, you say that
you stand for innocent life, but you don't stand for
innocent life at all, and so it's a reproach. It's
a hypocrisy that has seen I've seen Caitlin Johnstone, many
people who are not Christians just shaking their heads and saying,
(34:58):
you Christians, what's the matter with you? And I look
at it and I think, what a approach it is
to the body of Christ, what a approach it is
to the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for them
to do this kind of stuff, and everybody sees it.
I've seen one essay after another from people who opposed
this war and saying, what's the matter with these Christians?
It reminds me of what happened in Corinth where Paul
(35:18):
was saying, you Christians, in this church, you are embracing
sexual practices that even the Pagans don't embrace. And that's
basically what I see happening here. They've got a moral
sense of what a justified war is that Christians have
surrendered because of their eschatology or whatever reasons.
Speaker 3 (35:40):
No, you're exactly right. I have several videos that are
making the grounds on social media. A lot of people
have picked up these videos and are reposting them, and
some of them are reaching hundreds of thousands and even
millions of people. And I'm making that very point. I'm
(36:01):
saying that what's happening in evangelicalism today is that the
pastors who are promoting Christian Zionism and their unreserved sport
for this godless state of Israel is driving people away
(36:22):
from the Gospel. Absolutely, we're supposed to be preaching the gospel,
reaching people for Christ with the gospel, showing people the
love of Christ, showing people the grace of God, showing
people that what Jesus did on the cross, you know,
has brought us together as wanting in one body in
Christ is neither juno gentle or body free. We're all
(36:43):
want in Christ. Everyone is equal at the Cross. And
yet the doctrine of Christian Zionism is separating people into
cast systems, and it's separating people away from the Gospel
of Christ. And what you're saying is it's making people
(37:03):
sick to their stomachs when they see the way that
Christians Ey's pastors are supporting the awful, awful atrocities that
are going on every minute of the day over there,
and they're seeing the videos of it now on social media,
when we're seeing it every day in front of our
very eyes live time, you know, and we are seeing it,
(37:28):
and they're looking at the churches and they're hearing what
they're saying, and they're saying to themselves the best Christianity,
I don't want it. And a statistical fact that there
are more people leaving Evanozelical churches today than any time
in our nation's history. And that started in the year
two thousand with the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan when
(37:54):
when Bush launched all that. It started then, but now
then it's it's come to a tsunami. Yes, it's a
tsunami of people that are leaving churches and it's driving
people away from the Gospel. So it's more here at
stake than just that's right, the secular, more here than
(38:14):
just the political.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
And it's not just.
Speaker 3 (38:17):
It's also impacting the spiritual I agree. IBr and fabric
of America.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
I agree.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
And it's not just the people on the outside. This
is something that's been a problem within the church as well.
People become so attached to the rapture and the prophecies
and all the rest of the stuff that they'll break
fellowship with you as a Christian if you disagree with
them on this, and it's become the most important thing
to them, and you have to say, but wait a minute.
The most important thing is the Lord Jesus Christ. He said,
(38:45):
you search the scriptures, you think you have eternal life
in them, but they testify of me. That should be
your hermeneutic. That should be the view that you approach
the text with. What does this tell me about Christ?
And especially even revelation. It's the revelation of the Lord
Jesus Christ. It's not you know, what's going to happen
to Israel.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
But that's the way it's read.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
You know, it's amazing for me, but it's a real problem.
That's why i'd like to I'm gonna have to get
your book, the incredible Schofield and his book, and that's
available at your websites.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
And I know that you had to go.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
I think we've gone over the amount of time that
you'd allotted here, so I'll wrap this up pretty quickly again.
People can find Libertyfellowship mt dot com. That's where you
can find the book. That's where you can find Pastor
Baldwin and also on Chuck Baldwinlive dot com. Thank you
so much for joining us. Always interesting and important to
talk to you. Thank you so much, sir, Thank you
(39:39):
David very much.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Well, that's it for today's show. Thank you for joining us,
And if you would like to support us, you can
go to Davidknight dot news and you can see how
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Speaker 1 (39:57):
But again, as we say.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
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(40:22):
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Speaker 1 (40:26):
We may have a good day.
Speaker 2 (40:37):
The common man they created common Core, dumb down our children.
They created common Past, track and control us their Commons
project to make sure the commoners own nothing and the
communist future they see the common Man as simple, unsophisticated ordinary.
(41:00):
But each of us has worth and dignity created in
the image of God. That is what we have in common.
That is what they want to take away. Their most
powerful weapons are isolation, deception, intimidation. They desire to know
everything about us, while they hide everything from us.
Speaker 1 (41:21):
It's time to turn that around.
Speaker 2 (41:23):
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Ddavidnightshow dot com
All right, joining us now.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
We're honored to have a pastor Chuck Baldwin of Liberty
Fellowship in Montana. You can find the website at Libertyfellowship,
mt from Montana dot com. Also Chuck Baldwin Live dot com.
Thank you for joining us.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Sir David's quickly with you. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
It's been a long time since we've talked. Because of
timing and scheduling and things like that, you're only able
to do interviews in the afternoon. I wasn't able to
do that at Info Wars.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
But we're able to do that here.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
So I want to get you back on with what
is happening now. You've got a book that you're selling
at your website. We'll get into that a little bit.
But last time I interviewed you, we talked about another
book that you and your son had done, Romans thirteen,
and it seems like people did not understand Romans thirteen
(01:00):
or I don't think that we would have gone through
what we went through in twenty twenty with lockdown churches
and all the rest of stuff. I remember when we talked,
you know, the standard line was you do whatever the
government says unless they start infringing on your religious freedom
and said the time, I don't believe that they're going
(01:21):
to stand up for their religious freedom if they take
that tact. And of course we saw when the lockdown
happened under Trump that they didn't tell us a little
bit about your opinion about what happened with that and
the aftermath of it.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Well, I think what we saw was exactly the open
demonstration of what you and I had discussed. Yeah, that
is that the Walton took the case of Romans thirteen,
and you alluded to the book that my attorney's son
and I wrote, Romans thirteen is true meaning of submission,
(02:00):
And we took all of the verses in well not all,
but the vast majority of the verses in both Testaments
Old and Knew to show that nowhere does God command
his people to submit to evil authority, and that doctrine
of submission to civil authority, per the first couple of
(02:22):
verses of Roman Stepter thirteen, has made sheepy servants of
the state out of what should have been and once
were courageous, bold men of God, unafraid to speak truth
to power and to resist the attempts of those in authority.
(02:44):
To make slaves out of God's people. We are servants
to only one and that's Jesus Christ. So I think
that the doctrine, the false doctrine of Romans thirteen, as
it has been taught the not a part of the
twentieth century and in the twenty first century, has produced
(03:06):
exactly everything that we saw a demonstrated during the Covid tyranny.
And I think the evidence of that still continues today.
But you know, before, you know, it was always about
something that they consider to be non biblical. You know,
if you are talking about abortion, if you are talking
about the intrusion of our Fourth Amendment liberties and invasion
(03:31):
of our privacy and the Second Amendment and all of
these these issues constitutional issues, these Romans thirteen preachers in
Christians would say, well, you know, God's called me to
preach the Gospel, and I'm not going to preach that.
I'm not going to get involved in all these quote
unquote political things. And when you know, when they tell
me I can't preach the Gospel, then then I'll show
(03:53):
you know, some resistance. And they would they would pu
who any attempt to stand for basic fundamental God given
liberties and they use Must thirteen as a cop out. Well,
then COVID came along and guess what they said. You
can't meet in your church services, you can't preach, you
(04:17):
can't assemble, you can't observe your Resurrection Day services, observe
the birth of Christ. I mean all these are now,
these are not constitutional issues. These are you know, basic
fundamental biblical issues. And pastors just rolled over shut the churches,
(04:43):
didn't have have, you know, their meetings, They shut down
their operations entirely, and they proved that they are truly
nothing more than slaves of the state. So I think
that was a great wake up call to the condition
of the church.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
I agree, and a big part of that is that
they want to at all costs avoid any kind of
political controversy.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
You don't do that.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
And I appreciate that you speak to what people are
living in their daily life and you say, this is
how we think the biblical principles apply here. And I
think that is something that sadly missing in most of
the church. And we had a lot of people. There
were a few churches that never closed, and I interviewed
some of those pastors. There were some churches that closed
(05:31):
for a while then just kind of came to their
senses or whatever and reopened up, and some of them
talked about the fact that they got it wrong, that
they interpreted that wrong, and they would never do it again.
But there were some very big churches that did not
go back, even though they opened up, and even though
they had fights, they never went back and corrected their
(05:52):
commentaries or their statements on their website or what they
told people about Romans thirteen. And I think that's very important. Yeah,
I mean, we can all make mistakes. We can all
make mistakes, but we need to be public about it.
The way I look at it, a lot of people
who shut down for four or five months and then
opened up and then got into big fights with the
(06:13):
government over it, they just kind of ignored what had
happened those first four or five months.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
I think that's kind.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Of like a pastor who's been caught an adulterous affair
just kind of say, well, let's forget about that, will
move on.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
You know. Yeah, it's hard for I don't know why,
but it's we've reached a point in our in our
history were I don't know, somehow it's a sign of
weakness or something if you acknowledge that you were wrong
and what you taught from the pulpit. I mean, I've
(06:48):
reme into this with the designers issue and big, big time.
That's you know. But you know, for example, there was
John MacArthur who recently passed away, a pastor of a
large church in southern California, well known writer and broadcaster.
(07:09):
He was a man that four decades throughout his career,
he would impune pastors around the country who would resist
governmental usurpation of their power to intrude upon the freedom
(07:30):
of speech and the freedom of religion, and go forth
on even the freedom of assembly in certain cases, and
he would castigate them as being disobedient to Romans thirteen.
And he was one of the most foremost advocates of
(07:50):
the false doctumne of Romans thirteen in the country, and
because of his influence, he impacted a lot of fellow pastors.
Then when COVID hit and his church was hit personally
there in California, you know how California was about everything,
(08:12):
and so he actually reversed his position on that issue,
and he challenged the authority of the state of California
to close his church, and so forth, and he actually
was willing to go to court to fight it. So
I admire him for doing that. But Bill, to your point,
(08:32):
he never one time during all that period of contest
between him and the State of California, he never one
time public had got up and said, you know, I
was wrong in the past. You know, all these other
issues that men of God, you know, we're fighting a
long time before I fought this issue. You know, they
(08:55):
were fighting issues of freedom and faith for a long time,
and some of them were paying a very heavy price,
were resisting, and he never took their side. He always
condemned them for violating when I was thirteen. Now he's
doing the same thing, and he's resisting the you know
the I.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Remember when that happened.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
He shut down from what was at March till about
in July or whatever, and then they opened up. I
think really the final straw when they said all right,
all right, you can get together, but you can't sing.
It's like, okay, we're done with this nonsense. But like
you said, he didn't go back and change his commentaries
or anything. And a year later you had Todd Friel,
(09:37):
who was also fairly well known on YouTube and other
places and very connected to MacArthur. As they were getting
ready to roll out the vaccine mandates in September, he
said in August again, you know the Romans thirteen line,
and he said, and look, John MacArthur says this, this
is this, And I played the clip and I said, yeah,
(09:59):
but that's not what John McArthur has been doing for
the last year. Maybe you need to take a look
at the difference between what he said in his former
commentaries and what he's actually doing today. And I thought
that was what cod Friel said. I call him pinwheel
freel because he said, if government tells you wear pinwheels
on your head, you wear pinwheels on your head. It's like, yeah,
(10:19):
but you don't have to become a pincushion for a
poisonous kool aid injection.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
That's the insanity of all this stuff.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
But yeah, I think when I look at it, let
me get your take on this, I look at it
as from in a political sphere. When they become when
they're installed in their office, government employees swear to pull
the Constitution and so their authority comes from the Constitution
and it comes from their fealty to it. And if
(10:51):
they are in rebellion to the Constitution, they don't have
any authority. And I see Romas thirteen in the same
way that you know Romas thirteen. He talks about authority
coming from God. He's established these governments. Well, how do
we know if it's a legitimate government. Well, we can
take a look at what they're doing. And if what
they're doing is in a rebellion to God, then they
(11:14):
don't have authority. It's just like if they were rebelling
against the Constitution.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
What do you think I think I mean?
Speaker 3 (11:21):
In our book, we make that, we make that very
clear that Romans thirteen was not giving a blank check
to civil authority to run roughshod over the God given
liberties of the people. In fact, that that same passage
(11:43):
in Romans chapter thirteen that talks in the early verses
about submitted to the higher power. And you keep reading
and they always stop at verse two, but reading it
like for example of verse three, for rulers. Civil rulers
(12:05):
are not a terror to good works, but to evil.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
Well, so then be afraid the power do that which
is good. That's out praise are the same for he
is the verse verse four, he is the minister of
God to be for good. So at the same time
that Roman's thirteen tells us to admit to government, it's
telling government that government has the responsibility to be good, righteous,
(12:34):
and just in their implementation of law. And if they
are not good, righteous and just in their implication of law,
there is no implication in the duty of the Christian
to submit to that evil. I mean, so that's like saying, Okay,
(12:54):
you know, if the government commands you to do such
and such, which is obviously evil, unjust, immoral, et cetera,
you have no moral authority to submit to that. In fact,
you have a moral authority to resist that.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
I agree.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
Well, that's a part of the entire passage. So yes,
it's a twofold. You know, it's a responsibility on government
to be good and righteous adjust and when government is good,
righteous and just, and you should have the support of
the people. But when government is not good, righteous and just,
(13:31):
it should not have supported the people. So that is
clearly defined in Roman Scepter thirteen as well, because I
just choose to skip over those verses.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Yes, yes, I absolutely agree. Well, we're talking about civil government.
We just had the eightieth anniversary of Hiroshima. I'm curious
to get your take on this and if you think
that fits in and what I look we talk about
frequently is a just war theory, which was something that's
been put out by many Christians trying to restrain the
(14:05):
evil of war as much as possible, and trying to
restrain the way that it's conducted and the conditions under
which it has fought.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
How do you view Hiroshima.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
All. I think it was one of the greatest greatest
tragedies in US history. I think it's it is an
everlasting blight on the reputation of a nation that was
supposed to be the city on the hill, the nation
that at the standard of good government, honesty in government,
(14:42):
righteousness and government, a protector of humanity, a protector of life,
a protector of freedom, all everything that America was stolid on,
you know, the goodness of government and the righteousness and
the accountability of government to we the people. And they
(15:05):
were straight on government by the constitution and the rule
of law over the will of man, and all these
principles upon which America was founded. When we dropped those
bombs on Nagasaki and Niroshima, atomic bombs by the way
(15:26):
we're the only nation in the history of the world
that was ever used in the Yes, what a reputation.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
And on a civilian target as well, And that's the
key thing, isn't it the civilians and they're not a
civilian target?
Speaker 1 (15:41):
And I think that's the key thing. Isn't it the.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Fact that and that was that was really kind of
a hallmark, a turning point, I think in World War
Two of attacking civilians and both sides did it. There
was a bombing of London, then they retaliated with Dresden
and Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and it's really heinous. It's something
that I think Western civilization kind of went straight down
the tubes with that.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
We haven't recovered since then.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
No, In fact, I think we're still seeing it being
played out today in the genocide.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
And gossp Yes, exactly.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
And the way that the American government is supporting the
want and slaughter, genocide, identic cleansing, all of the above
committed by Israel with America's total support. We're supplying the weapons,
the bombs, the missiles, the munitions, with the intelligence you know,
CIA and Masada working hand in hand to implement all
(16:36):
this all this atrocity, and you know, all that I
think is just a continuation of what happened at the
end of World War Two. With the dropping of those
two upcoming bombs, we lost. It did more than then
just kill undreds of thousands of innocent civilian Japanese People's
(17:00):
hear the conscience of the American government.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
That's a good way where.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
The American government felt like, well, we have we have
the right. We are morally superior to anyone else in
the world. We can define goodness and righteousness as we
want to. We are the exceptional nation and we have
the power to do it, and so we can do
(17:25):
anything we want. And so we are seeing that today
in twenty twenty five, which is just a continuation of
the false war doctrum, the unjust war doctrine of the
end of World War two.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
I absolutely I agree. Yeah many times the excuses made
by Depentagon on others that well, that allowed us in
the war early. But if they had used that against
military forces, I think it would have had the same effect.
The key thing is that the targeting of civilians, which
is what we're seeing in God now, and the idea
(18:02):
that we don't start wars now we start wars preemptively,
and that was in the beginning of World War Two.
That was something that was a day of infamy when
the Japanese bomb Pearl Harbor. Now, of course we know
that FDR stood down and invited that in many different ways. Nevertheless,
for them to initiate war that has still been everybody
(18:26):
understands that. You know, there's always an argument as to
who began the war. We see that argument playing out
between Israel and Gaza. We said, argument playing out between
Russia and Ukraine. So everybody understands that that is unjust.
And what I'm concerned about when I look at what's
happening with Israel and with much of this other stuff
that Christians are cheering, is that even atheists and Pagans
(18:50):
understand instinctively the right and wrong about starting wars, the
right and wrong about targeting civilians and sustaining this when
there's no threat to you. And it is really amazing
to me to see Christians who are sharing this.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
Type of thing.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
But of course that is coming out of well, I
think is a bad theology. And you've got a book
that addresses that, the incredible Schofield and his book I
think you have on your website tells a little bit
about that.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
Yeah, that is the most thoroughly documented and fully researched
biography of Cyrus Schofield ever written. And when you were
talking about what you just said that the whole emphasus
behind that is build Field. Futurism also called dispensationalism, also
(19:46):
called person Zionism, and it was started not by Scholfield,
but by a man named John Darby, who was a
generation in front of Billfield, but they overlapped in the
latter years of Darby's life and a Darby disciple, by
(20:08):
the way, the idea of a rapture by a pre
second coming resurrection of Christian people, that concept was never
taught in church history from the time of Jesus all
the way up until the mid eighteen hundreds. Yes, so
(20:30):
for over eighteen hundred years there was never a doctrine
called the rapture or dispensationalism or futurism, we'll call what
you will.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
And yet now that is pretty much taken over. That's
pretty much taken over in terms of American Christianity.
Speaker 3 (20:46):
Has oh yeah, absolutely dominant. Yeah, But the history of
it is there was a Prophecy conference in Glasgow, Gotland,
and I think the year was eighteen thirty and there
was a a woman who self identified trans channeler Margaret
(21:08):
mc donald I believe was a name, and she spoke
in this conference and you know, this whole trans channeling stuff,
that's that's the mind, and she went into a trance
on stage and she started to babble forth this two
stage return of Christ, with the book called Rapture being
(21:33):
stage number one. And that was that was the first
time that I can find in my research where in
church history that doctrine was taught. And it wasn't really
even taught. It wasn't a pastor getting up and expounding
the scriptures. It was this demonic trans channeler that went
(21:55):
into a trance and you know, said that this is
what she was shown by the spirit and all this
kind of stuff. So the whole beginning of the Rapture
was demonic in my view. Well, anyway, it was picked
up by the founder of the Plymouth brother by the
name of John Darby. He became the champion of this doctrine.
(22:16):
He had a man that disciples of B. S. Scholfield,
who was young at the time and Schofield was a
con man. He was a fraud. He was a thief.
He spent six months in jail for a fraud. He
was a deserter of his family. He walked out on
(22:38):
his wife. And now we're talking. You know, this is
the mid eighteen hundreds. There was no social security, there
was no welfare, there were no benefits. I mean he
just left his two little girls and his wife. He
you know, gave himself a lawyer title. He never went
(23:00):
to law school. He never he was never a lawyer,
but he put a law degree behind his name and
he started working in law after his so called conversion
and he got onto his religious kick. He gave himself
a theological degree that he never earned. He never went
(23:20):
to college. But you know, if you if you look
at the Schoolfield Bible, I'll say virus I Scholfield d
d Well. That's just the degree that he gave himself.
I mean, this man was a fraud's fraud. He was
the conman's comman. I mean he's you know, he would
(23:41):
have made P. T. Barnum jealous. Yeah, this and this
is the guy that founded what we now know is
Christmas is over Schoolfield futurisms, and the thing that the
genius of it, the thing that made it. Sufficely say,
why how did this sweep the country and become vogue,
(24:05):
you know, and seminaries and Bible colleges and churches all
across the United States. The genius of it was. I
got to explain this to you just a minute to
help you understand how this became so popular. It didn't
become popular because of the doctrine. It didn't become popular
because of what was being said in the Bible until
(24:29):
the Thomas Schofield Bible dollars. You go back into the
post Reformation days like Adam Clark and Ala Barnes and
Matthew Henry and John Gill and all these James and
Fosset and Brown, you name it. All these commentators. Whenever
(24:51):
they would study the Scripture, they would they would write
their commentaries in a separate book. They would not put
their words on the same page as the words of God,
because they had such a holy reverence for the words
of God that they felt it would be sacrilege for
(25:14):
them to put their words their commentaries in the same
page as the scripture. Well, therefore they would write their
books in a separate and a complete, separate volume. So
if you wanted to read the Matthew Henard commentaries, for example,
the classic foremost commentary of all the time, you would
(25:39):
have to have your open Bible on one side of
the desk and then your open Matthew Henry commentary on
the other side of the desk and look back and forth.
And that's how you had to study and learn. So
what Schopfield did He ignored that and he put his
comments on the same page as the Bible, so whenever
(26:01):
you open the Bible, you had the scripture versus and
his commentary on the same page. Well, this was a
breakthrough in that it was such a convenience for people.
You didn't have to carry two books around, you know,
to look back and forth. You could just open the
(26:21):
Bible and you had the commentary and the Bible on
the same page. So it was a marketing tool.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
Yeah, yeah, we see that today.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
I walk into a Bible store and they've got a
different They got a Bible for different professions let's say, right,
you know, or for men or for women or whatever,
and they dress up the cover and they'll have stuff
in there about the profession or this or that, and
they'll try to tie it into whatever section of the Bible.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Then, but it's all about marketing, all.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
Right, right, And then all got that from Skillfield. He's
the one that started that. And that's and that's why
a big name is so popular. Wasn't because of what
he wrote. It was because of the marketing tool in
the way that the book was published, and of course
it was financed by Oxford Press. Oxford Press was owned
by Zionists. The Zionist agenda was promoted in Scholfield. Bullfield
(27:19):
was an uneducated man. He never finished any kind of
formal education. He was intelligent, he was articulate. He knew
how to talk, he knew how to read, he did
teach himself and all that kind of thing, but he
did not know theology in any state man or form.
(27:40):
The only thing he knew was what he was taught
by by Darby, and he simply regurgitated Darbyism, which became
school Filism. During the time of Darby, he was a
contemporary of the great preacher, maybe the greatest Baptist pressure
revolve time, Charlesbury, London, Zeland. And whenever he started hearing
(28:05):
the doctrines of Darby and this split resurrection theory of
a pre second coming rapture and prid built some of
the artribulation and all that stuff. Chryls Spurgeon publicly refudiated. Yeah,
Darby is. And he warned the church if they, you know,
(28:26):
if they followed this, it was going to lead the disaster.
But when Skolf came along and published his Bible, that
sealed the deal. And then the seminaries and the Bible
colleges started picking it up, and then the passengers started
picking it up. And today eighty percent of evangelicals buy
into Christian Zionism. It's a monster.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Yeah, yeah, And you know when you look at this,
Christ told us that the way we'll know false teachers
and false doctrine is by their fruit. And I would
say the fruit has been really, really bad of this.
And that's one of the things I've told people. I said, look,
you know, everybody's got their complicated eschatology charts and everything.
It's like, let's just take a look at what you're
(29:12):
the result of what this teaching is getting you to do.
It's getting you to cheer the starvation and murder of children,
and maybe you should go back and take a second look,
because your eschatology should not be trumping the obvious principles
are laid out in the in the Bible.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
For us, the legacy of cis Cofield is the genocide
in Gossip. Yeah, the slaughter everything that is happening in
the America. Support for it. And let's say so, let's
let's be real. I mean, there's a lot of reasons
(29:52):
why America is supporting this genocide and gossip. They support
anything as Reel does. And of course we all know
about the Israel lobby a PAC and you know dozens
of other lobby groups representing Israel are are literally buying
(30:15):
the US Congress. Yes, members of both parties. I mean
the starting that that stranglehold is starting to crack a
little bit because of the utter grotesqueness of the slaughter
of the innocence in Gaza.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Yes, and I think it was becoming.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
I think that along with the appearents of Ted kruz
On with Tucker crass And I've got a lot of
issues with Tucker Crasson, but he kind of laid that
out there, just like, what can you explain that? Can
you defend that? And of course he couldn't yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:47):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
And I think a lot of people saw that and
start scratching their head and say, wait a minute, maybe
there's something really wrong here, and there is there is
something really wrong that.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
Yeah, that wasn't That wasn't an interview interview, David, that
was a snuff film. Uh. I mean, uh, Tucker just
just slaughtered Uh. Senator cruns. Maybe it look like the
idiot that he is. But you know, aside from the
(31:15):
stranglehold of the APAC lobby on Congress in the White House,
which is massive, I'm not diminishing that at all. I mean,
it's it's it's ungodly the way our Congress is being
bought by a foreign government, the Israel lobby. I mean,
it's it's it's unconstitutional, it's illegal, it's a moral it's
(31:39):
an American it's it's it's it's everything bad in the world.
You know, that's happening through APACK and the Israel lobby.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
Remember when Trump said is used to own Congress, and
he said, rightfully, so.
Speaker 3 (31:53):
They do wres that Congress. But but but the reason
that that's able to be successful, this is my point,
is that that couldn't work if the evangelical churches of
the country were not supporting it.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
I agree, because they're.
Speaker 3 (32:11):
Providing the moral and spiritual cover for this. You know,
if the great notable preachers of the day, the ones
who have the giant platforms and are speaking to hundreds
of thousands of people and have the ear of so
many folks in our country, if they would stand up
(32:35):
and preach the truth about Israel, about the New Covenant,
about you know, what is right and wrong in the
eyes of God under the New Covenant, and the truth
about biblical Israel, expose the Christian Zionism for the falsehood
that it is, and really speak truth to power, they
(32:57):
would be able to negate the power of the Israel lobby,
and they have the power to change the course of
the country. I'm talking about the Pulpits of America, the pastors.
This has always been the case, I agree, But because
they're providing cover morally and spiritually for what Israel is doing,
(33:18):
there's no incentive for anyone to change course.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
You know, for the longest time, I really.
Speaker 3 (33:24):
Put the blame for this at the feet of the Pulpits.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
I agree.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
For the longest time I've looked at these a lot
of these churches very left wing churches that'll have their
rainbow celebrations, you know, where it's basically a worship service
for LGBT. And I look at that and it's like,
you know that is you know what is the matter
with these people? And the people on the right, well
look at that and just shake their head and say,
you know they have they're not worshiping Christ, They're worshiping
(33:51):
something else that is against Christ. And yet the conservatives
do the same thing. We got a lot of churches,
Cage's Church, who is just basically a worship service for
a political entity, a foreign government Israel, and I see
that as being an exact correlation to what's happening with
(34:12):
the progressive leftist churches and what they're doing with LGBT
or with CRT or whatever, you know, DEI that type
of thing. They have their leftist ideology and they worship it.
And the right is doing that as well. And as
people are trying to speak against abortion, against child mutilation
and these other things, we've got people who are looking
(34:36):
at the vast majority of Christians who are applauding what's
going on in Israel because of their eschatology, and they're
shaking their heads and saying, you know, you say that
you stand for innocent life, but you don't stand for
innocent life at all, and so it's a reproach. It's
a hypocrisy that has seen I've seen Caitlin Johnstone, many
people who are not Christians just shaking their heads and saying,
(34:58):
you Christians, what's the matter with you? And I look
at it and I think, what a approach it is
to the body of Christ, what a approach it is
to the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for them
to do this kind of stuff, and everybody sees it.
I've seen one essay after another from people who opposed
this war and saying, what's the matter with these Christians?
It reminds me of what happened in Corinth where Paul
(35:18):
was saying, you Christians, in this church, you are embracing
sexual practices that even the Pagans don't embrace. And that's
basically what I see happening here. They've got a moral
sense of what a justified war is that Christians have
surrendered because of their eschatology or whatever reasons.
Speaker 3 (35:40):
No, you're exactly right. I have several videos that are
making the grounds on social media. A lot of people
have picked up these videos and are reposting them, and
some of them are reaching hundreds of thousands and even
millions of people. And I'm making that very point. I'm
(36:01):
saying that what's happening in evangelicalism today is that the
pastors who are promoting Christian Zionism and their unreserved sport
for this godless state of Israel is driving people away
(36:22):
from the Gospel. Absolutely, we're supposed to be preaching the gospel,
reaching people for Christ with the gospel, showing people the
love of Christ, showing people the grace of God, showing
people that what Jesus did on the cross, you know,
has brought us together as wanting in one body in
Christ is neither juno gentle or body free. We're all
(36:43):
want in Christ. Everyone is equal at the Cross. And
yet the doctrine of Christian Zionism is separating people into
cast systems, and it's separating people away from the Gospel
of Christ. And what you're saying is it's making people
(37:03):
sick to their stomachs when they see the way that
Christians Ey's pastors are supporting the awful, awful atrocities that
are going on every minute of the day over there,
and they're seeing the videos of it now on social media,
when we're seeing it every day in front of our
very eyes live time, you know, and we are seeing it,
(37:28):
and they're looking at the churches and they're hearing what
they're saying, and they're saying to themselves the best Christianity,
I don't want it. And a statistical fact that there
are more people leaving Evanozelical churches today than any time
in our nation's history. And that started in the year
two thousand with the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan when
(37:54):
when Bush launched all that. It started then, but now
then it's it's come to a tsunami. Yes, it's a
tsunami of people that are leaving churches and it's driving
people away from the Gospel. So it's more here at
stake than just that's right, the secular, more here than
(38:14):
just the political.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
And it's not just.
Speaker 3 (38:17):
It's also impacting the spiritual I agree. IBr and fabric
of America.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
I agree.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
And it's not just the people on the outside. This
is something that's been a problem within the church as well.
People become so attached to the rapture and the prophecies
and all the rest of the stuff that they'll break
fellowship with you as a Christian if you disagree with
them on this, and it's become the most important thing
to them, and you have to say, but wait a minute.
The most important thing is the Lord Jesus Christ. He said,
(38:45):
you search the scriptures, you think you have eternal life
in them, but they testify of me. That should be
your hermeneutic. That should be the view that you approach
the text with. What does this tell me about Christ?
And especially even revelation. It's the revelation of the Lord
Jesus Christ. It's not you know, what's going to happen
to Israel.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
But that's the way it's read.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
You know, it's amazing for me, but it's a real problem.
That's why i'd like to I'm gonna have to get
your book, the incredible Schofield and his book, and that's
available at your websites.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
And I know that you had to go.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
I think we've gone over the amount of time that
you'd allotted here, so I'll wrap this up pretty quickly again.
People can find Libertyfellowship mt dot com. That's where you
can find the book. That's where you can find Pastor
Baldwin and also on Chuck Baldwinlive dot com. Thank you
so much for joining us. Always interesting and important to
talk to you. Thank you so much, sir, Thank you
(39:39):
David very much.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Well, that's it for today's show. Thank you for joining us,
And if you would like to support us, you can
go to Davidknight dot news and you can see how
you can donate to the program. We no longer have
any funding from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, never got
it sent from them in the first place.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
But again, as we say.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
When we're talking about the loss of public funding for
these various entities, that if people want to support programs
that they like, they need to do that on their own.
And so we appreciate the many, many people who have
supported us. We thank you for that. We make it
available for everybody to listen to. But just understand that
(40:22):
we are dependent on our donations, and we thank you
so much for joining us.
Speaker 1 (40:26):
We may have a good day.
Speaker 2 (40:37):
The common man they created common Core, dumb down our children.
They created common Past, track and control us their Commons
project to make sure the commoners own nothing and the
communist future they see the common Man as simple, unsophisticated ordinary.
(41:00):
But each of us has worth and dignity created in
the image of God. That is what we have in common.
That is what they want to take away. Their most
powerful weapons are isolation, deception, intimidation. They desire to know
everything about us, while they hide everything from us.
Speaker 1 (41:21):
It's time to turn that around.
Speaker 2 (41:23):
And expose what they want to hide. Please share the
information and links you'll find at the davidknightshow dot com.
Thank you for listening, Thank you for sharing. If you
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