February 12, 2025 • 29 mins
This episode of The Downtown, we talk to Dr Sally Spencer- Thomas. We talk about the Construction Working Minds Summit happening February 24-27th. Register today because prices will go up at constructionworkingminds.org/summit We also hear local music from Zakk Magnum with his new song “Become the Fire.”
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Welcome to downtown. Bark you about Arlington, said this media,
I am Rody John. On this episode we talked to
doctor Sally Spencer Thomas. We talk about the Construction Working
Mines Summit, happening February twenty fourth through twenty seventh here
in Arlington, Texas. Make sure to register today because prices
will go up. Register at Construction Workingmines dot org slash summit. So,
(00:45):
without further ado, here is Zach Magnum with his new
song Become the Fire.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Look into my eyes, tell me what you see, tell
me what you know?
Speaker 3 (01:23):
What you think you by?
Speaker 4 (01:27):
O sh ok yes O shots a scarlet or skin?
You would you pay.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Me completely muscle?
Speaker 3 (02:06):
So we become au sleep and expose no sake.
Speaker 5 (02:31):
O spose you.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Go to the place save me a.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Completely muscle.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
Weak, become a completely lo.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Become I would like to welcome to show a doctor
(04:17):
Sally Spencer Thomas. How are you doing today, man, I'm
doing well.
Speaker 6 (04:21):
Thanks for having me on the show.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Thanks for coming on. So the fourth annual Construction Working
Minds Summit will be happening February twenty fourth through twenty
seventh here in Arlington, Texas. What can people look forward to.
Speaker 6 (04:33):
Well, it's a very exciting time because the industry is
coming together, the contractors, the labor, the professional associations, mental
health experts, researchers, everybody who cares about worker well being
in this industry is coming together to help find solutions,
network share policy and program information best practices so that
(04:55):
we can make sure that we have a vibrant and
healthy workforce.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
How that makes sense?
Speaker 7 (05:01):
So I had spent two years in residential construction and
I did not know this little summit even existed, or
that people were even making sure that, you know, the
mental health of the construction people were even really being
taken care of.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
So how did all of this even begin?
Speaker 6 (05:21):
Yeah, you bring up a very good point. This was
not on the radar for most of the industry even
five years ago, and now it's a very hot topic.
So I think it happened in increments. I know that
I've been in this space for a very long time.
I lost my brother to suicide and four I thank you.
(05:42):
And I'd been a psychologist beforehand, so I thought I
knew the things that you were supposed to know. But
then after he died, as often happens after tragedy, I
went into the canyon of why and what can we
do differently, and that's where we learned that the majority
of people who died by suicide, about eighty percent, are male,
most of them are of working age, most of them
(06:04):
die on first attempt, and most of them have never
stepped foot into any type of mental health nothing. So
that seemed like a really important gap to fill. And
if we're not going to meet them through the education
system because most of them have aged out, or the
healthcare system because most of them don't go there either,
where do we find them. We find them working right,
(06:25):
They're working almost every day. So we started working in
the space of workplace suicide prevention probably in seven but
it was a long slow slog because people didn't find
it relevant. Then we had some early adopters, just case
studies that happened around twenty thirteen, and then we got
some data that was a turning point, data from the
CDC in twenty sixteen that clearly indicated that people in
(06:49):
the industries of construction and extraction, which is oil and
gas and minding, had astronomical rates of suicide. And I
think it didn't dawn on the industry before that. For
a number of reasons, partly because there's a lot of
transitory workers in construction, Partly because people were just weren't
tracking these things like they were tracking job site fatalities.
(07:11):
So you know, we what we measure matters, and we
just weren't measuring this until that came out. And then
I think during the pandemic years, there was just a
lot of worry about somebody's mental health, whether it was
your own, or your kids, or your partners or somebody's
and that's when things really got i would say, more
(07:32):
system wide. So it's gone from just creating awareness now
not just about suicide, but about addiction and overdose also
off the charts in the construction industry, and rather than
just you know, creating information like did you know this
many people have died? You know, which you know, gets
(07:52):
people's attention but doesn't really get us to a solution.
I think right now, the reason I love to work
with this industry so much is because they're some problems solving,
get it done people, and they're they're all in and
it's it's amazing. Yeah.
Speaker 7 (08:09):
I did notice that in the in the couple of
years that I was there, it was just it was
I mean, I could tell the addiction rate was through there.
You know, it was pretty high just because of you know,
you're on the elements all day and you're, yes, you're
somewhat dealing with the same thing on a regular basis,
but every home is going to be different, or every
job site it's going to be different as well. So
and then obviously the pressure from above to work faster,
(08:31):
and you know, again sometimes that's out of your hands
and you can't control like weather, Like if you are
trying to, you know, build a home, you might want
to make sure you have somewhat good weather because if
it's raining like crazy, you're not getting anything done outside.
So but you're still getting the you know, getting breathed
down from your neck from above. So I can under
I can understand why some of the addictions happened. But
(08:52):
again it's it was definitely never a workplace where they
did even ask the question, hey, are you are.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
We doing okay? Like is everything fine? It was nope,
just get it done in this time and then we
move on to the next place.
Speaker 6 (09:04):
Yeah, I think there's just a perfect storm in this industry.
I think the number one thing that people say is
the pressure that you just talked about to do more
with less, you know, super high stakes because it's so
dangerous for a lot of the workers, and there's all
a lot of money involved, so you know, all of
that pressure trickles down and out. But there's other things.
There's a very permissive culture of drug and alcohol just
(09:27):
as a way to cope. There's a lot of pain
that comes along with the job, and if you go
to your doctor to get that dealt with, you're most
likely going to get and opiate base pain medication, which
we now know leads to horrific addiction. Or you can
choose to you know, grind it out through the pain,
(09:48):
which is misery. And then when people are disabled from
their injuries, they don't often have a plan B. So
there's just a lot a lot there and it's not
been a necessarily a fully compassionate, loving kind place. There's
just been a lot of a lot of uh, you know,
bullying and hazing and harassment and discrimination and prejudice and
(10:10):
like all of that comes with the territory. Uh, in
addition just being away from home a lot.
Speaker 7 (10:15):
Right, Yeah, it's basically it's very much a suck it
up and uh, you know, power through it.
Speaker 6 (10:20):
You'll be fine, exactly exactly. I often say, like you know,
in construction, toughness is the superpower. Yeah, you're not gonna
live a day if you're not tough and stoic and
self reliant and able to handle lots of pressure and pain,
you're just not gonna make it. But every superpower has
its underbelly, and this is the underbelly.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
With great power comes great responsibility.
Speaker 6 (10:42):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (10:44):
Yes, So there's so much happening in these days, and
it's different locations as well. Touch on some of the
events that people can look forward to.
Speaker 6 (10:51):
Yeah, So on day one, we're doing our second annual
UH Storytelling Retreat. So this isn't a advance thing that
we weren't sure if the construction industry was ready for
or not, but it turns out they are. We did
it last year in Kansas City and we're repeating it
again this year, where we help people who think they
(11:12):
might be ready to share their story publicly. We give
them some tools and make sure they're ready, and we
make sure that they can tell their stories safely and effectively.
So a lot of times people are in long term
recovery from drugs and alcohol, or they have survived a
suicide attempt, or they have had some other loss in
(11:33):
their life, whether it's overdose or suicide, and they want
to share their story so that other people don't feel
so alone. We also know that storytelling is the most
powerful tool that we have for reducing stigma, and so
they want to help let people know this is what
it looks like. It looks like me, you know, and
this is what recovery looks like. And this is how
I got here. And my path is different than yours,
(11:55):
but somebody helped me along the way, so I'm here
to help you. It's the most powerful thing. So that's
day one, full day of people digging into their stories
and thinking about what they might want to share or
not share, and then sharing it with each other. Day two,
we have full day certificate bearing workshops. So we want
people to walk away with a deeper dive into some
(12:17):
skill building and not just you know a lot of
kinds conferences are all about the you know, talking heads
on the stage, keynotes and you know, and people are
fascinated by what they're learning, but they don't necessarily have
something that's building them building their capacity. So we offer
a number of these certification workshops. What is about being
(12:38):
becoming a trainer so we can train trainers to deliver
a one hour suicide prevention training. We have how do
you run a peer support group certification training. We have
some tools on how to build a recovery friendly workplace.
So that's another full day workshop. So Day two is
all about building your credentials. We're also having an invite
only leadership round table, and this is where c suite
(13:04):
general presidents of unions, presidents of professional associations, owners from
big tech companies, basically the top of the food chain
of this industry are going to come together in a
very intimate setting to talk about how we're going to
change the industry. Because I keep saying like we can
(13:24):
send people the counselors all day. Hey, that's hard in
this industry for many reasons. But if we don't change
some of the problems inside the industry, we will continue
to see these issues as a consequence, and it's going
to start at the top. So that's day two. Day
three we're focusing on mental health and suicide prevention. So
(13:46):
we have an opening keynote with one of the best
speakers in the world, and I've been in this business
long enough to know Kevin Hines survived to jump off
the Golden Gate Bridge when he was seventeen, and he
is one of the powerful, inspiring people I've ever met.
And so he's going to open up the day talking
(14:07):
about his incredible commitment to well being and how today
he spreads hope everywhere he goes. He'll bring the house down.
We have a number of breakouts and sharing of people's
ideas and programs and policies as they're learning some research
that we're coming to learn about. We have a Toolbox
(14:30):
Talk competition. We have Day one. We have a closing
keynote from Mates and Construction, which is a program in
Australia we're all looking at because they now have like
thirty plus years of data that shows they're saving lives
over there and they have a huge social return on investment.
So it doesn't just help the employer, it helps the
whole community obviously when we can prevent premature death. So
(14:52):
that's Day one. At that night, we have an awards
dinner for our award winners, mental health champions and large
and medium sized organizations and people who've been just doing
amazing stuff. And then on day two, we focus on
overdose prevention and addiction recovery and substance use prevention, so
it's going to be a really powerful thing. Our closing
(15:13):
keynote on day two is a woman who is an
ESPN reporter. She lost both of her parents to overdose
and so she has a very powerful story. We've kind
of also woven in the theme around what we're learning
from athletics. Our co chairs and our keynote for the
(15:35):
awards dinner are the Thomas family. Solomon Thomas is a
linebacker for the Jets, and his parents have also done
amazing things in their own lives, and they lost their
sister slash daughter to suicide and have dedicated their lives
to making a difference, largely through schools and through sports.
(15:55):
They're going to speak at the at the AT and
T Stadium. Yeah, that's are having our big party. And
then yeah, we're going to be distributing narcan, which is uh,
the way we can prevent overdose on a job site
when it's happening in real time. So just lots lots
and lots of tools and sharing and you know, these
(16:17):
emerging best practices so that everybody goes home with a
bunch of tools in their toolbox.
Speaker 7 (16:22):
I mean, speaking of toolbox, let's go back to that
toolbox talk competition. What if somebody wanted to compete, how
could they get how could they do that? And what
are well obviously, what are the things they're looking for?
Speaker 6 (16:33):
Yeah, so the competition entries have closed, Okay, but I'll
tell you how this all tape came to a fruition.
So back in the early day, when we just had
a couple of case studies out there and I met
with a contractor and I said, you know, give me
the download, like I'm eager to learn and help this industry.
Tell me where does health and safety show up in construction?
(16:55):
And he said, sally, like all day, every day, like
major value. I'm like, okay, okay, okay, we'll get me
an example. And he's like, well, toolbox talks. I'm like,
what the fuck are toolbox toxing?
Speaker 3 (17:04):
Oh?
Speaker 6 (17:04):
We had so much to teach you. And one night
when he told me what they were, I was like,
that's that's an answer, because it's small drips repeated over time,
start of the day, small group conversations, little incremental places
where people can start to have safer space to like
talk about these things, and so it's it's caught on
(17:25):
really quickly to do toolbox talks around all kinds of
things related to mental health like sleep and stress and
psychological safety and how to help your kids and all
kinds of things. So last year we had our first
toolbox Talk competition. We have all kinds of parameters. It's
got to be under five minutes. It's got to be best,
you know, safe and effective messaging, you know, all kinds
of things. And so the entries happened in October and
(17:49):
then we had the judging committee narrow that pull down
to the top three and then at the event we'll
be doing live voting, so the at the event will
be able to pick their first, second, and third choices.
Speaker 7 (18:05):
That's amazing.
Speaker 6 (18:06):
Yeah, and they all announced at the award ceremony.
Speaker 7 (18:08):
That's so cool.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Yeah, we didn't have two box talks. We had tailgate talks.
Speaker 6 (18:13):
But basically exact same idea.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Yeah, we definitely were not talking about mental health.
Speaker 7 (18:17):
That will take right.
Speaker 6 (18:18):
It's usually stretch and flex or here's how to use
this piece of equipment, or stay hydrated, or wear your sunscreen.
I mean little tiny messages baked in and had a
huge impact on you know, bringing all of these things
up to top of mind and making sure everybody knew
that this was a priority for the day and we're
going to look out for each other. I mean, all
(18:38):
the same things that we need around changing the culture
around mental health. So it was a great practice to adapt.
Speaker 7 (18:44):
Yeah, it seemed like they were more focused on making
sure they were in trouble with OSHA.
Speaker 6 (18:48):
Than There's also that. But you know, I do a
whole workshop on how to deliver effective mental health toolbox
talks because I'm also not a fan a peeople, you know,
just passing the paper down to the newbie and yeah,
them feeling resentful and just you know, whipping through it
and not caring, Like that's actually detrimental, Like, yeah, don't
(19:10):
do that. Like put someone in there who really cares,
who knows how to generate conversation. That's the most important
part of the toolbox talk. It's less about sharing the
signs and information and the resources, although that's certainly fine.
It's really about getting those honors conversations started. So I
want to make sure that the people who are running
(19:31):
those toolbox talks are making the best use of that
time to make a difference.
Speaker 7 (19:35):
Right, yeah, because it again, it's just having that conversation.
There's there might be so many people out there that
are I mean, there definitely are so many people out
there that are struggling alone or they feel like they're
alone and in silence because they either don't know how
to approach the conversation with somebody else, or nobody's just
genuinely asking how are you doing? Like hey, we'll be like, hey,
how are you doing? But that's about it. It's a
(19:56):
real common just saying hi. Whether we actually care orize
a whole nother thing and whether or not somebody actually
wants to open up is a completely different.
Speaker 6 (20:03):
Subject, that's right. And everybody assumes that not everybody. A
lot of people assume that no one else has these issues.
They're they're the only one, or that if they come out,
everyone's going to fiercely judge them. So and these are
you know, viable assumptions. When you don't see these things
(20:24):
in plain sight and nobody's talking about them, it's understandable
why people make these assumptions. So I usually start all
of the workshops I do with some anonymous and confidential polling,
and within the first minute they all know it's not
enough in them. It's an all of us. You know,
when we list out I've been affected, I love someone
who's been affected, I've lost someone who's you know, like,
(20:47):
when we add in all of these things, it's usually
ninety five percent or more say yes, this has shown
up in my life. And as soon as they know,
then the walls start to come down. It's really powerful
to see unfold right in front of me. It doesn't
matter if I'm in front of a board room of
executives or a huge room of people just came in
from the field. It's always the same. They're always in
(21:08):
awe when they go it through the first time, and
then the tenor changes and they're like, I had no idea.
Especially when the statistic comes up on my life polling
about what percentage have you considered suicide? It's usually around
ten percent, twelve percent, and they have no idea. Yeah,
I'm like, and that's probably an underestimate because people are
(21:28):
still afraid to come clean here, even though it's anonymous
and confidential polling. So yeah, it's a big deal. It's
a big deal. But here's what gives me hope. I mean,
in addition, to the problem solving, get it done nature
of construction, which I love because I got I don't
got time to mess around of it in this field
a really long time, and I'm tired. I'm tired of
people just shooting done ideas before they give it a
(21:50):
chance because they're scared. Right, construction is all in in
addition to that, which is very rewarding. What I see
when things are working well is a strong sense of
I've got your back, you have mine, and I have yours.
I see this very strongly in the unions. I see
this very strongly in the teams that are working together.
(22:11):
They understand that concept because that's how work often gets done.
You know, it's very hard to do a lot of
these projects and isolation. You depend on each other. But
even more so around the safety culture that's been built
in a lot of these companies, they understand they have
to keep their eyes on the playing field, making sure
that everybody's safe and doing what needs to be done
to you know, get us through without anybody being injured,
(22:33):
and so building on that sense of camaraderie, similar to
what we see in the first responder communities and the
military communities. It's still there's there's a lot of that
there when when when organizations are working well, and that
bodes really well for mental health, right.
Speaker 7 (22:49):
Yeah, I know there was a when I was in
the field there was a lot of you know, former
military or former you know, you know first responders as well,
and I was always like the very interesting that that
you know, they would come over and that's what they
decided to do and they loved it.
Speaker 6 (23:04):
Yes, Well, they have a lot of skill sets that
are very transferable for the military, tons of intimate, fast
moving teams, very efficient, and you know, they're tough, tough, tough, tough,
So it makes sense why they would thrive in the
construction industry. And you know, similarly for the first responder communities,
same kind of values and operating in teams a lot
(23:24):
of times, especially with the firefighters, so it works. Well.
Speaker 7 (23:28):
Yeah, it's definitely that problem solving that they date you
in both those fields. Really, So which event are you
most looking forward to?
Speaker 6 (23:36):
Oh? My gosh, Well, for me, it's kind of like homecoming,
It really is, because I've been in it so long
and so I'm very excited to see my friends hear
about the progress that they're making in their own companies
and locals. And that's probably the most rewarding thing for me,
(23:57):
is just to connect with people, you know, relationship wise
and understand what they're learning. I think out of all
the events, probably the most meaningful event for me is
a storytelling retreat, just again to see the transformation, just
to a day of people standing up and saying, you know,
this is me and this is how my life has
been changed forever, and this is what I'm advocating for
(24:19):
the world, you know. And at first the voice is shaky,
and then by the end of the day, they're standing
in their power and they're standing there as like a beacon.
It's so cool. It's just gives me chills every time.
That's one of the most rewarding thing we get to do,
for sure.
Speaker 7 (24:35):
I mean again, it goes back to people thinking they're
in silence and by themselves, and then what's ashamed?
Speaker 6 (24:41):
Yes, and ashamed, and then to move from that to
standing in power saying I am courageous in this moment.
You know, I don't have all the answers, but I
can tell you it was a fierce fight and I
have learned some things through the fight. I mean, we
actually walked them through this whole exercise called the Hero's Journey,
where they reposition what they're telling themselves in their head
about what they've gone through into you know, the hero's
(25:04):
journey about what they've lived through and what they've learned,
and the trials and tribulations and the heroes along the
way and the great reward. It's very fun, very cool.
Speaker 4 (25:14):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Well.
Speaker 7 (25:15):
So we have a segment of the show it's called
the Tournament Toppings. We're trying to find the best pizza place.
What is your favorite pizza place?
Speaker 6 (25:22):
Oh, my gosh. Well, when I moved out to Colorado,
so I'm in the Denver area in Colorado, there were
two things that my host family did for me. I
came out to interview for graduate school, and there was
and I was staying with my father's paternity brother. And
there are two things that they did that sealed the deal.
One is that they took me up and over this
(25:42):
pass into a mountain town. And everybody in Colorado knows
exactly what I'm talking about. You come up by seventy
and you bridge this little thing and all of the
rocky mountains open up to you, and it's a gaspable moment.
So that was one and I was like, wow, never
seen anything like this before. And then the second thing
they do is they did was take me to bojo Pizza.
Oh j yeah. Yeah. So I grew up in Connecticut
(26:04):
never thought of anything special about pizza. It was just
it was just there, cheap and tasty meal. This Bojo's Pizza.
And again this was a while ago, early nineties. It
had huge, thick crusts. You put honey on it afterwards,
they had all kinds of really interesting ingredients that you'd
never ordered before. And I was like, all right, now,
I have to say over the decades it has gone downhill.
(26:27):
It's not as good as it well or also maybe
the novelty has worn off. True, Yeah, but it's a
it's a fun thing to go eat there, and it's
usually still pretty good nice.
Speaker 7 (26:36):
So yeah, I imagine you take people that are coming
into town and you're like, all right, we're going to
We're going to this place, yes.
Speaker 6 (26:41):
And there's one up and you know as you're heading
up into the mountains in this place called Idaho Springs
that it's still pretty legit. You know, it's scaled all
over the states. So some of the other places are
not as cool, but this one is like literally in
the old mining town of Idaho Springs. So it's good.
It's good stuff.
Speaker 3 (26:57):
I love that.
Speaker 7 (26:58):
That's amazing. Well, I've been long overdue for a trip
up there, so I will definitely jump that up. But yeah, well,
so if people wanted to find out more about the
summit attend themselves, how can they find all the information?
Speaker 6 (27:10):
Yeah, so there's a website called Construction Working Minds Construction
Working minds dot com. There's lots of things in there
about different types of trainings and all kinds of stuff.
If you do forward slash Summit, that gets you to
all the stuff around the summit, so you can go
in and browse like there's tons of videos and lots
of goodies. But if you just want information of the summit,
(27:32):
just go forward slash Summit and you'll find all that
that information there.
Speaker 3 (27:37):
There you go.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
Sally, thank you so much for your Sorry, doctor Sally,
thank you so much for you Thank you so much
for your time. And yeah, I can't wait to see
what happens in two weeks at the summit.
Speaker 6 (27:51):
All right, awesome, Thank you so much, John, thank you,
thank you so.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
Much to doctor Sally for being on the show again.
Make sure to go to contruy Struction Workingminds dot org
slash summit and register today because prices will go up.
And also again, thank you so much to Zach Magnum
with his new song Become the Fire. Make sure to
check us out on the social media's On every Friday,
we have a find Out Friday. You can find out
what's happening in the city of Arlington all the fun
(28:17):
events that you can check out.
Speaker 6 (28:18):
Now.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
While you're doing that, make sure to go out, eat local,
drink local, and go rediscover your city.
Speaker 8 (28:23):
Tag us and send those pictures over to us on
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(28:46):
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Speaker 5 (29:06):
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Speaker 2 (29:12):
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Speaker 5 (29:17):
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Speaker 2 (29:28):
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Speaker 5 (29:30):
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Speaker 2 (29:39):
Up
Welcome to downtown. Bark you about Arlington, said this media,
I am Rody John. On this episode we talked to
doctor Sally Spencer Thomas. We talk about the Construction Working
Mines Summit, happening February twenty fourth through twenty seventh here
in Arlington, Texas. Make sure to register today because prices
will go up. Register at Construction Workingmines dot org slash summit. So,
(00:45):
without further ado, here is Zach Magnum with his new
song Become the Fire.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Look into my eyes, tell me what you see, tell
me what you know?
Speaker 3 (01:23):
What you think you by?
Speaker 4 (01:27):
O sh ok yes O shots a scarlet or skin?
You would you pay.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Me completely muscle?
Speaker 3 (02:06):
So we become au sleep and expose no sake.
Speaker 5 (02:31):
O spose you.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Go to the place save me a.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Completely muscle.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
Weak, become a completely lo.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Become I would like to welcome to show a doctor
(04:17):
Sally Spencer Thomas. How are you doing today, man, I'm
doing well.
Speaker 6 (04:21):
Thanks for having me on the show.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Thanks for coming on. So the fourth annual Construction Working
Minds Summit will be happening February twenty fourth through twenty
seventh here in Arlington, Texas. What can people look forward to.
Speaker 6 (04:33):
Well, it's a very exciting time because the industry is
coming together, the contractors, the labor, the professional associations, mental
health experts, researchers, everybody who cares about worker well being
in this industry is coming together to help find solutions,
network share policy and program information best practices so that
(04:55):
we can make sure that we have a vibrant and
healthy workforce.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
How that makes sense?
Speaker 7 (05:01):
So I had spent two years in residential construction and
I did not know this little summit even existed, or
that people were even making sure that, you know, the
mental health of the construction people were even really being
taken care of.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
So how did all of this even begin?
Speaker 6 (05:21):
Yeah, you bring up a very good point. This was
not on the radar for most of the industry even
five years ago, and now it's a very hot topic.
So I think it happened in increments. I know that
I've been in this space for a very long time.
I lost my brother to suicide and four I thank you.
(05:42):
And I'd been a psychologist beforehand, so I thought I
knew the things that you were supposed to know. But
then after he died, as often happens after tragedy, I
went into the canyon of why and what can we
do differently, and that's where we learned that the majority
of people who died by suicide, about eighty percent, are male,
most of them are of working age, most of them
(06:04):
die on first attempt, and most of them have never
stepped foot into any type of mental health nothing. So
that seemed like a really important gap to fill. And
if we're not going to meet them through the education
system because most of them have aged out, or the
healthcare system because most of them don't go there either,
where do we find them. We find them working right,
(06:25):
They're working almost every day. So we started working in
the space of workplace suicide prevention probably in seven but
it was a long slow slog because people didn't find
it relevant. Then we had some early adopters, just case
studies that happened around twenty thirteen, and then we got
some data that was a turning point, data from the
CDC in twenty sixteen that clearly indicated that people in
(06:49):
the industries of construction and extraction, which is oil and
gas and minding, had astronomical rates of suicide. And I
think it didn't dawn on the industry before that. For
a number of reasons, partly because there's a lot of
transitory workers in construction, Partly because people were just weren't
tracking these things like they were tracking job site fatalities.
(07:11):
So you know, we what we measure matters, and we
just weren't measuring this until that came out. And then
I think during the pandemic years, there was just a
lot of worry about somebody's mental health, whether it was
your own, or your kids, or your partners or somebody's
and that's when things really got i would say, more
(07:32):
system wide. So it's gone from just creating awareness now
not just about suicide, but about addiction and overdose also
off the charts in the construction industry, and rather than
just you know, creating information like did you know this
many people have died? You know, which you know, gets
(07:52):
people's attention but doesn't really get us to a solution.
I think right now, the reason I love to work
with this industry so much is because they're some problems solving,
get it done people, and they're they're all in and
it's it's amazing. Yeah.
Speaker 7 (08:09):
I did notice that in the in the couple of
years that I was there, it was just it was
I mean, I could tell the addiction rate was through there.
You know, it was pretty high just because of you know,
you're on the elements all day and you're, yes, you're
somewhat dealing with the same thing on a regular basis,
but every home is going to be different, or every
job site it's going to be different as well. So
and then obviously the pressure from above to work faster,
(08:31):
and you know, again sometimes that's out of your hands
and you can't control like weather, Like if you are
trying to, you know, build a home, you might want
to make sure you have somewhat good weather because if
it's raining like crazy, you're not getting anything done outside.
So but you're still getting the you know, getting breathed
down from your neck from above. So I can under
I can understand why some of the addictions happened. But
(08:52):
again it's it was definitely never a workplace where they
did even ask the question, hey, are you are.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
We doing okay? Like is everything fine? It was nope,
just get it done in this time and then we
move on to the next place.
Speaker 6 (09:04):
Yeah, I think there's just a perfect storm in this industry.
I think the number one thing that people say is
the pressure that you just talked about to do more
with less, you know, super high stakes because it's so
dangerous for a lot of the workers, and there's all
a lot of money involved, so you know, all of
that pressure trickles down and out. But there's other things.
There's a very permissive culture of drug and alcohol just
(09:27):
as a way to cope. There's a lot of pain
that comes along with the job, and if you go
to your doctor to get that dealt with, you're most
likely going to get and opiate base pain medication, which
we now know leads to horrific addiction. Or you can
choose to you know, grind it out through the pain,
(09:48):
which is misery. And then when people are disabled from
their injuries, they don't often have a plan B. So
there's just a lot a lot there and it's not
been a necessarily a fully compassionate, loving kind place. There's
just been a lot of a lot of uh, you know,
bullying and hazing and harassment and discrimination and prejudice and
(10:10):
like all of that comes with the territory. Uh, in
addition just being away from home a lot.
Speaker 7 (10:15):
Right, Yeah, it's basically it's very much a suck it
up and uh, you know, power through it.
Speaker 6 (10:20):
You'll be fine, exactly exactly. I often say, like you know,
in construction, toughness is the superpower. Yeah, you're not gonna
live a day if you're not tough and stoic and
self reliant and able to handle lots of pressure and pain,
you're just not gonna make it. But every superpower has
its underbelly, and this is the underbelly.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
With great power comes great responsibility.
Speaker 6 (10:42):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (10:44):
Yes, So there's so much happening in these days, and
it's different locations as well. Touch on some of the
events that people can look forward to.
Speaker 6 (10:51):
Yeah, So on day one, we're doing our second annual
UH Storytelling Retreat. So this isn't a advance thing that
we weren't sure if the construction industry was ready for
or not, but it turns out they are. We did
it last year in Kansas City and we're repeating it
again this year, where we help people who think they
(11:12):
might be ready to share their story publicly. We give
them some tools and make sure they're ready, and we
make sure that they can tell their stories safely and effectively.
So a lot of times people are in long term
recovery from drugs and alcohol, or they have survived a
suicide attempt, or they have had some other loss in
(11:33):
their life, whether it's overdose or suicide, and they want
to share their story so that other people don't feel
so alone. We also know that storytelling is the most
powerful tool that we have for reducing stigma, and so
they want to help let people know this is what
it looks like. It looks like me, you know, and
this is what recovery looks like. And this is how
I got here. And my path is different than yours,
(11:55):
but somebody helped me along the way, so I'm here
to help you. It's the most powerful thing. So that's
day one, full day of people digging into their stories
and thinking about what they might want to share or
not share, and then sharing it with each other. Day two,
we have full day certificate bearing workshops. So we want
people to walk away with a deeper dive into some
(12:17):
skill building and not just you know a lot of
kinds conferences are all about the you know, talking heads
on the stage, keynotes and you know, and people are
fascinated by what they're learning, but they don't necessarily have
something that's building them building their capacity. So we offer
a number of these certification workshops. What is about being
(12:38):
becoming a trainer so we can train trainers to deliver
a one hour suicide prevention training. We have how do
you run a peer support group certification training. We have
some tools on how to build a recovery friendly workplace.
So that's another full day workshop. So Day two is
all about building your credentials. We're also having an invite
only leadership round table, and this is where c suite
(13:04):
general presidents of unions, presidents of professional associations, owners from
big tech companies, basically the top of the food chain
of this industry are going to come together in a
very intimate setting to talk about how we're going to
change the industry. Because I keep saying like we can
(13:24):
send people the counselors all day. Hey, that's hard in
this industry for many reasons. But if we don't change
some of the problems inside the industry, we will continue
to see these issues as a consequence, and it's going
to start at the top. So that's day two. Day
three we're focusing on mental health and suicide prevention. So
(13:46):
we have an opening keynote with one of the best
speakers in the world, and I've been in this business
long enough to know Kevin Hines survived to jump off
the Golden Gate Bridge when he was seventeen, and he
is one of the powerful, inspiring people I've ever met.
And so he's going to open up the day talking
(14:07):
about his incredible commitment to well being and how today
he spreads hope everywhere he goes. He'll bring the house down.
We have a number of breakouts and sharing of people's
ideas and programs and policies as they're learning some research
that we're coming to learn about. We have a Toolbox
(14:30):
Talk competition. We have Day one. We have a closing
keynote from Mates and Construction, which is a program in
Australia we're all looking at because they now have like
thirty plus years of data that shows they're saving lives
over there and they have a huge social return on investment.
So it doesn't just help the employer, it helps the
whole community obviously when we can prevent premature death. So
(14:52):
that's Day one. At that night, we have an awards
dinner for our award winners, mental health champions and large
and medium sized organizations and people who've been just doing
amazing stuff. And then on day two, we focus on
overdose prevention and addiction recovery and substance use prevention, so
it's going to be a really powerful thing. Our closing
(15:13):
keynote on day two is a woman who is an
ESPN reporter. She lost both of her parents to overdose
and so she has a very powerful story. We've kind
of also woven in the theme around what we're learning
from athletics. Our co chairs and our keynote for the
(15:35):
awards dinner are the Thomas family. Solomon Thomas is a
linebacker for the Jets, and his parents have also done
amazing things in their own lives, and they lost their
sister slash daughter to suicide and have dedicated their lives
to making a difference, largely through schools and through sports.
(15:55):
They're going to speak at the at the AT and
T Stadium. Yeah, that's are having our big party. And
then yeah, we're going to be distributing narcan, which is uh,
the way we can prevent overdose on a job site
when it's happening in real time. So just lots lots
and lots of tools and sharing and you know, these
(16:17):
emerging best practices so that everybody goes home with a
bunch of tools in their toolbox.
Speaker 7 (16:22):
I mean, speaking of toolbox, let's go back to that
toolbox talk competition. What if somebody wanted to compete, how
could they get how could they do that? And what
are well obviously, what are the things they're looking for?
Speaker 6 (16:33):
Yeah, so the competition entries have closed, Okay, but I'll
tell you how this all tape came to a fruition.
So back in the early day, when we just had
a couple of case studies out there and I met
with a contractor and I said, you know, give me
the download, like I'm eager to learn and help this industry.
Tell me where does health and safety show up in construction?
(16:55):
And he said, sally, like all day, every day, like
major value. I'm like, okay, okay, okay, we'll get me
an example. And he's like, well, toolbox talks. I'm like,
what the fuck are toolbox toxing?
Speaker 3 (17:04):
Oh?
Speaker 6 (17:04):
We had so much to teach you. And one night
when he told me what they were, I was like,
that's that's an answer, because it's small drips repeated over time,
start of the day, small group conversations, little incremental places
where people can start to have safer space to like
talk about these things, and so it's it's caught on
(17:25):
really quickly to do toolbox talks around all kinds of
things related to mental health like sleep and stress and
psychological safety and how to help your kids and all
kinds of things. So last year we had our first
toolbox Talk competition. We have all kinds of parameters. It's
got to be under five minutes. It's got to be best,
you know, safe and effective messaging, you know, all kinds
of things. And so the entries happened in October and
(17:49):
then we had the judging committee narrow that pull down
to the top three and then at the event we'll
be doing live voting, so the at the event will
be able to pick their first, second, and third choices.
Speaker 7 (18:05):
That's amazing.
Speaker 6 (18:06):
Yeah, and they all announced at the award ceremony.
Speaker 7 (18:08):
That's so cool.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Yeah, we didn't have two box talks. We had tailgate talks.
Speaker 6 (18:13):
But basically exact same idea.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Yeah, we definitely were not talking about mental health.
Speaker 7 (18:17):
That will take right.
Speaker 6 (18:18):
It's usually stretch and flex or here's how to use
this piece of equipment, or stay hydrated, or wear your sunscreen.
I mean little tiny messages baked in and had a
huge impact on you know, bringing all of these things
up to top of mind and making sure everybody knew
that this was a priority for the day and we're
going to look out for each other. I mean, all
(18:38):
the same things that we need around changing the culture
around mental health. So it was a great practice to adapt.
Speaker 7 (18:44):
Yeah, it seemed like they were more focused on making
sure they were in trouble with OSHA.
Speaker 6 (18:48):
Than There's also that. But you know, I do a
whole workshop on how to deliver effective mental health toolbox
talks because I'm also not a fan a peeople, you know,
just passing the paper down to the newbie and yeah,
them feeling resentful and just you know, whipping through it
and not caring, Like that's actually detrimental, Like, yeah, don't
(19:10):
do that. Like put someone in there who really cares,
who knows how to generate conversation. That's the most important
part of the toolbox talk. It's less about sharing the
signs and information and the resources, although that's certainly fine.
It's really about getting those honors conversations started. So I
want to make sure that the people who are running
(19:31):
those toolbox talks are making the best use of that
time to make a difference.
Speaker 7 (19:35):
Right, yeah, because it again, it's just having that conversation.
There's there might be so many people out there that
are I mean, there definitely are so many people out
there that are struggling alone or they feel like they're
alone and in silence because they either don't know how
to approach the conversation with somebody else, or nobody's just
genuinely asking how are you doing? Like hey, we'll be like, hey,
how are you doing? But that's about it. It's a
(19:56):
real common just saying hi. Whether we actually care orize
a whole nother thing and whether or not somebody actually
wants to open up is a completely different.
Speaker 6 (20:03):
Subject, that's right. And everybody assumes that not everybody. A
lot of people assume that no one else has these issues.
They're they're the only one, or that if they come out,
everyone's going to fiercely judge them. So and these are
you know, viable assumptions. When you don't see these things
(20:24):
in plain sight and nobody's talking about them, it's understandable
why people make these assumptions. So I usually start all
of the workshops I do with some anonymous and confidential polling,
and within the first minute they all know it's not
enough in them. It's an all of us. You know,
when we list out I've been affected, I love someone
who's been affected, I've lost someone who's you know, like,
(20:47):
when we add in all of these things, it's usually
ninety five percent or more say yes, this has shown
up in my life. And as soon as they know,
then the walls start to come down. It's really powerful
to see unfold right in front of me. It doesn't
matter if I'm in front of a board room of
executives or a huge room of people just came in
from the field. It's always the same. They're always in
(21:08):
awe when they go it through the first time, and
then the tenor changes and they're like, I had no idea.
Especially when the statistic comes up on my life polling
about what percentage have you considered suicide? It's usually around
ten percent, twelve percent, and they have no idea. Yeah,
I'm like, and that's probably an underestimate because people are
(21:28):
still afraid to come clean here, even though it's anonymous
and confidential polling. So yeah, it's a big deal. It's
a big deal. But here's what gives me hope. I mean,
in addition, to the problem solving, get it done nature
of construction, which I love because I got I don't
got time to mess around of it in this field
a really long time, and I'm tired. I'm tired of
people just shooting done ideas before they give it a
(21:50):
chance because they're scared. Right, construction is all in in
addition to that, which is very rewarding. What I see
when things are working well is a strong sense of
I've got your back, you have mine, and I have yours.
I see this very strongly in the unions. I see
this very strongly in the teams that are working together.
(22:11):
They understand that concept because that's how work often gets done.
You know, it's very hard to do a lot of
these projects and isolation. You depend on each other. But
even more so around the safety culture that's been built
in a lot of these companies, they understand they have
to keep their eyes on the playing field, making sure
that everybody's safe and doing what needs to be done
to you know, get us through without anybody being injured,
(22:33):
and so building on that sense of camaraderie, similar to
what we see in the first responder communities and the
military communities. It's still there's there's a lot of that
there when when when organizations are working well, and that
bodes really well for mental health, right.
Speaker 7 (22:49):
Yeah, I know there was a when I was in
the field there was a lot of you know, former
military or former you know, you know first responders as well,
and I was always like the very interesting that that
you know, they would come over and that's what they
decided to do and they loved it.
Speaker 6 (23:04):
Yes, Well, they have a lot of skill sets that
are very transferable for the military, tons of intimate, fast
moving teams, very efficient, and you know, they're tough, tough, tough, tough,
So it makes sense why they would thrive in the
construction industry. And you know, similarly for the first responder communities,
same kind of values and operating in teams a lot
(23:24):
of times, especially with the firefighters, so it works. Well.
Speaker 7 (23:28):
Yeah, it's definitely that problem solving that they date you
in both those fields. Really, So which event are you
most looking forward to?
Speaker 6 (23:36):
Oh? My gosh, Well, for me, it's kind of like homecoming,
It really is, because I've been in it so long
and so I'm very excited to see my friends hear
about the progress that they're making in their own companies
and locals. And that's probably the most rewarding thing for me,
(23:57):
is just to connect with people, you know, relationship wise
and understand what they're learning. I think out of all
the events, probably the most meaningful event for me is
a storytelling retreat, just again to see the transformation, just
to a day of people standing up and saying, you know,
this is me and this is how my life has
been changed forever, and this is what I'm advocating for
(24:19):
the world, you know. And at first the voice is shaky,
and then by the end of the day, they're standing
in their power and they're standing there as like a beacon.
It's so cool. It's just gives me chills every time.
That's one of the most rewarding thing we get to do,
for sure.
Speaker 7 (24:35):
I mean again, it goes back to people thinking they're
in silence and by themselves, and then what's ashamed?
Speaker 6 (24:41):
Yes, and ashamed, and then to move from that to
standing in power saying I am courageous in this moment.
You know, I don't have all the answers, but I
can tell you it was a fierce fight and I
have learned some things through the fight. I mean, we
actually walked them through this whole exercise called the Hero's Journey,
where they reposition what they're telling themselves in their head
about what they've gone through into you know, the hero's
(25:04):
journey about what they've lived through and what they've learned,
and the trials and tribulations and the heroes along the
way and the great reward. It's very fun, very cool.
Speaker 4 (25:14):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Well.
Speaker 7 (25:15):
So we have a segment of the show it's called
the Tournament Toppings. We're trying to find the best pizza place.
What is your favorite pizza place?
Speaker 6 (25:22):
Oh, my gosh. Well, when I moved out to Colorado,
so I'm in the Denver area in Colorado, there were
two things that my host family did for me. I
came out to interview for graduate school, and there was
and I was staying with my father's paternity brother. And
there are two things that they did that sealed the deal.
One is that they took me up and over this
(25:42):
pass into a mountain town. And everybody in Colorado knows
exactly what I'm talking about. You come up by seventy
and you bridge this little thing and all of the
rocky mountains open up to you, and it's a gaspable moment.
So that was one and I was like, wow, never
seen anything like this before. And then the second thing
they do is they did was take me to bojo Pizza.
Oh j yeah. Yeah. So I grew up in Connecticut
(26:04):
never thought of anything special about pizza. It was just
it was just there, cheap and tasty meal. This Bojo's Pizza.
And again this was a while ago, early nineties. It
had huge, thick crusts. You put honey on it afterwards,
they had all kinds of really interesting ingredients that you'd
never ordered before. And I was like, all right, now,
I have to say over the decades it has gone downhill.
(26:27):
It's not as good as it well or also maybe
the novelty has worn off. True, Yeah, but it's a
it's a fun thing to go eat there, and it's
usually still pretty good nice.
Speaker 7 (26:36):
So yeah, I imagine you take people that are coming
into town and you're like, all right, we're going to
We're going to this place, yes.
Speaker 6 (26:41):
And there's one up and you know as you're heading
up into the mountains in this place called Idaho Springs
that it's still pretty legit. You know, it's scaled all
over the states. So some of the other places are
not as cool, but this one is like literally in
the old mining town of Idaho Springs. So it's good.
It's good stuff.
Speaker 3 (26:57):
I love that.
Speaker 7 (26:58):
That's amazing. Well, I've been long overdue for a trip
up there, so I will definitely jump that up. But yeah, well,
so if people wanted to find out more about the
summit attend themselves, how can they find all the information?
Speaker 6 (27:10):
Yeah, so there's a website called Construction Working Minds Construction
Working minds dot com. There's lots of things in there
about different types of trainings and all kinds of stuff.
If you do forward slash Summit, that gets you to
all the stuff around the summit, so you can go
in and browse like there's tons of videos and lots
of goodies. But if you just want information of the summit,
(27:32):
just go forward slash Summit and you'll find all that
that information there.
Speaker 3 (27:37):
There you go.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
Sally, thank you so much for your Sorry, doctor Sally,
thank you so much for you Thank you so much
for your time. And yeah, I can't wait to see
what happens in two weeks at the summit.
Speaker 6 (27:51):
All right, awesome, Thank you so much, John, thank you,
thank you so.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
Much to doctor Sally for being on the show again.
Make sure to go to contruy Struction Workingminds dot org
slash summit and register today because prices will go up.
And also again, thank you so much to Zach Magnum
with his new song Become the Fire. Make sure to
check us out on the social media's On every Friday,
we have a find Out Friday. You can find out
what's happening in the city of Arlington all the fun
(28:17):
events that you can check out.
Speaker 6 (28:18):
Now.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
While you're doing that, make sure to go out, eat local,
drink local, and go rediscover your city.
Speaker 8 (28:23):
Tag us and send those pictures over to us on
Facebook Arlington Citizen Media, Twitter at x Citizen Media. Tag
us on Instagram Arlington Citizen Media and send those pictures
the old fashioned way Email Arlington Citizen Media at gmail
dot com. Also go to our website www dot Arlington
Citisenmedia dot com. Don't forget to subscribe and give those
(28:46):
five star reviews of the downtown at Apple Music, Spotify,
Google Podcasts, and also hit us on SoundCloud, iHeartRadio, and YouTube.
Speaker 5 (29:06):
Nothing on at other al an uncle of the babble
of Doctor.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
Bob app.
Speaker 5 (29:17):
Nothing at other al I an uncle of the a
bable of the unto.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
Apart until other album A couple.
Speaker 5 (29:30):
As the Bob of Anti dopp
Speaker 2 (29:39):
Up
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