* Stephen Brooks, MSU Beat Writer for 247Sports

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Jack Ebling here with my good friend Matt Sloan a
graph of okamists. Big summer here, Matt.

Speaker 2 (00:05):
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Speaker 1 (00:24):
Zero percent.

Speaker 4 (00:25):
Can't get much lower than that.

Speaker 3 (00:26):
That's exactly right.

Speaker 4 (00:27):
Topacy, Matt in the gang here on West Grand River, Okamith.
They're making friends.

Speaker 1 (00:33):
Great afternoon been Michigan and beyond, and welcome to the
Drive with Jack the Spotlight Radio Network. Jack Ebling here
with my producer today Boston rob sixty two degrees and
mostly sunny here in mid Michigan. Absolutely gorgeous day. Enjoy
these while you can get them. Oh, we have the
baseball playoffs continuing now. The road teams won games one

(00:58):
and two of these championships series. Only three teams have
lost the first two home games and come back and won,
So that means the good things for Seattle and the
Dodgers most likely. But we have a lot of football
to talk about. Basketball too on the horizon at Michigan
State Media Day tomorrow, but most of the attention right

(01:21):
now is focused on football, as it should be in
mid October, and when you look at where Michigan State
is a lot of speculation the future of Jonathan Smith.
Spartans are twenty seven and a half point underdogs twenty

(01:42):
seven and a half at Indiana. That is the largest
negative spread ever against the Hoosiers for the Spartans, and
I think most people would be beyond stunned if Michigan
State came back from Bloomington with the win, then they
entertained miss and then they have four more games in November.

(02:05):
I want to welcome in Steven Brooks twenty four to
seven Sports Spartan tailgate premium site does a great job
covering MSU football and basketball. Steven, I'll cut right to
the chase. How many more games does Jonathan Smith coach
at Michigan State? Is it one more, two more, six

(02:27):
more meaning the end of the season, or more than six?

Speaker 2 (02:33):
I mean, I don't have that answer.

Speaker 5 (02:36):
I don't know if anybody does, but my gut is
at probably two, and then I think there'll be some
real I think after two is a potential pivot point,
I guess is what we'll say, and then you'd be going,
you know, I don't think it makes sense that you're
going to do it is it's probably going to be

(02:56):
bad this weekend. I don't think it makes sense to
throw an interim out there for Michigan unless you kind
of want to absolve everybody from that and just say, hey,
this doesn't really count getting out of you know, kind
of throw an excuse like over over the top of it.
But yeah, I could see it after these next two.
I guess if these don't.

Speaker 2 (03:14):
Go well, but there's all there are.

Speaker 5 (03:15):
Also these next two are big opportunities on the other
side of it. I don't think anybody expects them to
go well, but they will be big opportunities, nonetheless, to
change the momentum, to change the messaging if they were
to get one or jeez, somehow two in the next
two weeks.

Speaker 1 (03:32):
What's more likely that Michigan State will lose by fifty
three points the way Illinois did against the Hoosiers, and
that this will be the end for Jonathan Smith. Maybe
he'll be fired on the tarmac, or that they pull
it together against a Michigan team that has some serious questions.

(03:54):
They did lose to USC by more than Michigan State did,
and back here everything goes right kind of the way
it did last year against Iowa, and Michigan State beats
the Wolverines, which is more likely.

Speaker 5 (04:10):
I mean, I don't I think the first one can
happen and then the second one can. I don't think
there are two different realities necessary. I mean, I think
they can get waxed by Indiana, doesn't necessarily get fired,
and then they could come back, I guess, theoretically, and
we'll put it.

Speaker 2 (04:24):
All together and have that day.

Speaker 5 (04:26):
Yeah, Michigan doesn't look like the same type of team
that we thought for much of the offseason. Penn State
obviously is not going to be that same sort of
challenge when when they get to that game, so it
looks a little different. I mean, I'm not gonna bet
on either of those. I'm sorry that they win either
of these games and come out and get that win
against Michigan, but it's the more likely, I guess, of
the two. Then they somehow compete. I think this weekend

(04:49):
at Indiana, I guess, but yeah, they both. You know,
it seems unlikely that it's gonna turn out that way.
I mean, and in one sense though, you know, not
to be total doom. Include Like I said, the are
two games that if you win one of them, you
will change the narrative at least for a little bit.
I will be enough to say Smith and these guys jobs.
I don't know, but they are two big opportunities. And

(05:11):
I do think there are two games that sort of
keep everything in place for a little bit. I mean,
there are two big carrots. You look at what UCLA
did de Penn State and how they all sort of.

Speaker 2 (05:20):
Rallied together for that game.

Speaker 5 (05:23):
It's kind of sad that we're comparing miss can stay
to that. But my point is when you're going on
the road to face unbeaten number three, I think that
can be a glue that can keep everybody in line
for a little bit longer and say, hey, let's go
give them our best shot. We're back into a corner.
Let's go see what we can do against these guys.
And then Michigan's is a natural there's so much natural motivation,

(05:44):
so much emotion. You don't have to do a lot
to get ready for that. You're gonna want to go
play that game regardless. So you've got two more weeks
I think where everyone's going to be fairly locked in,
fairly bought in. But if those two go bad, what
you know, these carrots on the end of the sticks,
they go away after these next games, and then you
might see splintering and looking out for yourself and opting out.

(06:05):
You might see all those types of things, especially if
there's a.

Speaker 2 (06:08):
Formal coaching decision.

Speaker 5 (06:09):
But I do think that for these two weeks it
kind of helps that while they're in this turbulent time,
you got a big carrot this week to look at, say,
everybody lock in, let's focus up the thing isn't you
know we're not sunk yet. Let's go try and try
and take a bite out of Indiana. And then Michigan
will be a similar deal where people will still think
be locked in for the most part, focused behind the scenes.

(06:29):
So I think there's a little natural glue that keeps
us all together for at least a couple more weeks,
even if the performances aren't great. I think the mentality
the locker room, the spirits that type of stuff sort
of has some natural forces sort of keeping them aligned
for now.

Speaker 4 (06:44):
Steven.

Speaker 1 (06:45):
They say that once the public has made up its
mind and they have either labeled you a saint, then
you have a lot of chips to play. You have
a lot of wiggle room before you fall out of that.
But even harder is when the public has made up
his mind that you don't belong, you can't get it done.

(07:05):
It is very difficult to change minds and reverse that perception.
Let's say Michigan State fools a lot of people and
wins one of these next two games, and then wins
two of the last four we're talking about at Minnesota
home for Penn State. Very different program than it was

(07:26):
a month ago at Iowa and Maryland at Ford Field.
Let's say Michigan State can win two of those four
and go three and three the second half of the season,
just as it did the first half, be six and six,
skank into a lower tier bowl and win that game

(07:47):
and be seven and six. Do you think anyone would
change their minds about Jonathan Smith? Would they say this
is terrible, This just means we're gonna have more of
this crap, or would they say, you know, what this
is kind of what happened at Oregon State, and then
he took the worst program in the country and they
won twenty five games the next three years.

Speaker 4 (08:09):
What do you think the public would do.

Speaker 5 (08:13):
I think it would lead to a few saying Okay,
I'm willing to give him a little more time, but
not enough of a dent to really calm things and
to really cool the temperature. I mean, like we've discussed
so many people. If you look at the pie chart,
a not insignificant section of that pie was out on
him basically the day he got hired. You know, a

(08:33):
decent come out there. Another big chunk was out after
last year and they get smacked by Indiana, smacked by
Ohio State, smacked by Oregon, smacked by Rutgers. With the
Bowl game on the lineup, that was another big chunk
of people that moved out then. And so I just
don't think I really think Jack, to be honest with you,
I mean, they probably have to go five and one

(08:54):
down this second half. I think to win back even
a decent chunk of people. I really do, because even
if if you get one of these wins, it'll just
be well, you only did it one time. You know,
look at all the other bad things that have stacked up,
all the other winnable games that were lost. It just
there's so much bad juju on one side of the
equation that it's it's hard for me to see the

(09:15):
equation balancing out.

Speaker 2 (09:18):
You know.

Speaker 5 (09:18):
And again, Michigan, I don't think is an you know,
they're not a top tier Michigan team. It's people would
feel good, they'd love to make fun of Michigan, but
it wouldn't be like, ah, look what we accomplish. It
would be a look at you, you know, it wouldn't be.

Speaker 2 (09:29):
Look at Michigan State.

Speaker 5 (09:30):
Indiana is really the big prize, and it's just a
really hard one to try to square right now in
terms of how they're going to get that done with
how Indiana is humming on both sides, they're statistical, you know,
numbers on both sides that they don't have a clear
and obvious weakness. I mean, they talk about momentum, they
have that to the end degree right now, belief they

(09:51):
have a coach who's going to want to run it
up and rub it in. You know, there's I just
it's really hard to picture any sort of good vibes
coming out of this weekend specifically, and it feels like
the one that they have to have to really change
the narrative because I would give you a little juice
going into Michigan, and yeah, Michigan I think is a
beatable team on your home field. I mean, gosh, if
you were somehow go too and oh this week, maybe

(10:12):
that could shift things. But I just think so much
damage has been done. So many folks gave Jon and
Smith a shortly to begin with, which we discussed I
think was pretty unfair in a lot of ways, quite honestly,
but it is where it is. We're here now, and
I mean the UCLA game was the game that turned me.

Speaker 2 (10:27):
You know.

Speaker 5 (10:28):
And I guess I wrote afterwards like I no longer
believe that it's going to work, you know. And it's
a bummer to say on a lot of different fronts
because I.

Speaker 2 (10:35):
Think he's a good guy.

Speaker 5 (10:36):
I think he's a good coach in a lot of ways.
I have genuine respect for the job he did at
Oregon State, and I think people should too. But like
you said, once the masses have turned, I just don't
think they're going to turn back, fair or not. And
I do think there's some unfairness to it, but I
do think the reality is most people are out now
and in the UCLA game, broke the you know, the

(10:57):
straw that broke the back there, and I can't blame
And that was a horrible, horrible loss and an unacceptable
result in performance against a team like that for a
staff and this position. So I get it, and yeah,
I just like I said last week, I can't go back.
I thought if I lost that game, this staff would
sort of be in an irrecoverable position, and yeah, that's

(11:17):
where we are, I think.

Speaker 1 (11:19):
And I think Stephen, it wasn't just losing that game,
as bad as that was a seven and a half
point favorite on homecoming. It wasn't just the point spread,
which was stunning, twenty five points. You don't normally see that.
You don't see a team that's more than a touchdown
underdog win by twenty five very often. It was the

(11:41):
way Michigan State played, so lackluster, so listless. A lot
of people thought that they had given up, including Jalen Berger,
former spartan, who came back and scored three touchdowns and
said as much after the game.

Speaker 4 (11:55):
So when you have that hanging over your head.

Speaker 1 (11:58):
It's like, you know you're the life raft shown they've
just thrown you has sprung a leak, and I don't
know what you do. I said to someone Sunday night, Stephen,
when I saw the point spread, So what chance do
you give Michigan State of going to Bloomington and shocking
the world. And the guy says less than one percent?
I said, okay, So let's say that less than one

(12:20):
percent happens and Michigan State beats the number three ranked Hoosiers.

Speaker 4 (12:26):
Then what And he.

Speaker 1 (12:27):
Said, then I'll say, well, if they're good enough to
do that, why did they play the way they did
the rest of the year. So there's really nothing he
can do. He's going to be hit with something either
way if this happens. Is there an advantage to doing

(12:48):
something the middle of the season. Obviously some schools think
there is. They're shopping now, they're not signing people, but
they're certainly negotiating and trying to identify their candidate. We
know that Alan Haller was doing this during the season.
When he knew what had happened, he'd already he'd had

(13:10):
a long time to do it. With mel Tucker out
early in the season, but he knew he wasn't going
to retain Harlan Barnett. Harlon Barnett didn't know that. He
thought he was going to interview for the job they
after the Penn State game, but Jonathan Smith had already
agreed in principle, and Alan Hallard been tracking him for a.

Speaker 4 (13:30):
Couple of months.

Speaker 1 (13:32):
So how much of an advantage is that, if any,
to pull in the plug and saying, Okay, let's get
on with it, let's start this search as soon as
we can and get out ahead of the masses. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (13:46):
I've thought about that a little bit, you know. I mean,
because once you do that, like it's not like, oh,
let's see what the indroim can do for us, maybe
we can get a spark here, like you're pulling the plug,
as you said, it would be all about I guess
at this point it's it's trying to sort of keep
up with the Jones and stay competitive with the other openings,
you know, because some of these have been open for

(14:06):
a while, and you know, I don't know how much advantage,
but I'm sure there is an advantage.

Speaker 2 (14:11):
Of time and conversations and whatnot.

Speaker 5 (14:14):
You know, some things the coaches you're gonna want to
talk to are in the middle of their season still
and you're not gonna be able to get too much done,
but you can get a lot of homework done, some
background checks and background info on folks. So yeah, in
that respect, like when Penn State is open, they're gonna
have a long time to get there. Virginia Tech.

Speaker 1 (14:33):
Jonathan Smith, that decision was basically done before Oregon State
had finished its season. Despite what Jonathan told people out there,
you know, he was certainly in discussions, and it wasn't
long after that last game against Penn State that Michigan
State had his new coach. That didn't all happen in

(14:55):
two days. So let's say after the Michigan game, Steven,
Michigan State loses both of these games, and they decide
that this has to happen. And we've seen this at
Michigan State before. It happened after a loss to Michigan
forty nine to I thing forty nine to three, I
believe it was back in two thousand and two. It

(15:15):
was the end of Bobby Williams and Morris Watts coached
the rest of the season. Let's say this happens who
is the interim coach for Michigan State.

Speaker 5 (15:28):
I don't know which way they'll go. I know the
way I would go.

Speaker 6 (15:31):
I don't know if this is how they would do it,
but I would go with Courtney Hawkins. He makes the
most sense to me as the least connected to Jonathan Smith,
be most connected to the program, you know, and could
sort of get rally that sort of you know, pulling
the heartstrings a little bit win one for the alma mater.

Speaker 2 (15:48):
He knows what it's about.

Speaker 5 (15:49):
And everything, and he's been a head coach, obviously only
at the high school level, but he at least sort
of has that understanding of what that role is and
everything that's on the plate. I don't think it can
be according I don't think you want to shove all
that extra onto their plate when they're trying to come
up with game plans. And it's not like you have
sort of a bis Pogey type as an analyst waiting around,

(16:12):
you know, an old old stage that's been a head
coach or whatever been around the block that you can
tap on. So to me, Courney Hawkins is the smart pick.
And if it were to come down to that, I'd
be curious to see it, because I don't think he'd
do a terrible job, to be honest, either, We'll just
give him the circumstances. But that's who I pick. I
don't know how they would do it, you know, I
think Keith Bonafa as the associate head coach on paper,

(16:33):
But again, do you want to turn to the right
hand man of the guy you just fired? Necessarily A
lot of times they try and sort of have a
distinction there. So I think Hawkins makes all the sense
if it comes down to that, but I don't know
if that's actually how it'll play out.

Speaker 1 (16:47):
Yeah, I think you've identified the top two candidates and
it really doesn't matter which one. Let's say, just for
a second, it's Courtney, but it could also be Keith.
And now you've lost badly at Indiana and you have
had your face rubbed in it by Michigan.

Speaker 4 (17:08):
Everyone has checked out.

Speaker 1 (17:09):
They're thinking about basketball, they're thinking about hockey, they're thinking
about who the next coach is going to be. Just
turned the damn page, and you're talking about four winnable games.
Not to say that will be favored in any of them.
They won't be. But what if Michigan State beat Minnesota

(17:31):
had a bye week, beat Penn State, Iowa, and Maryland
went to a bowl game, and suddenly they won the
last five games and finished seven and five. Would Courtney
or Keith be a viable candidate to take over or
you know, fans here are still delusional. They're talking about

(17:52):
Nick Saban coming back for God's sake, or you know
Urban Meyer or some of the other names I have
heard mentioned that Michigan State it is not going to
be getting and some of the others, frankly, who are
going to have a lot better offers than Michigan State.
Is it possible that someone could coach themselves into a

(18:13):
backdoor job.

Speaker 2 (18:16):
No, I don't think so. I don't think that really.

Speaker 5 (18:19):
I don't think that flies anymore these days. It's such
a high stakes. I mean, we're talking about firing a
guy eighteen games in right, It's such a high stakes deal.
Now you cannot afford to screw these things up and
keep it in reset. It's gonna cost a lot of
money to get Jon and Smith out here and get
somebody else in here. That's that's not gonna be a
decision that's made lightly.

Speaker 4 (18:40):
And you're never gonna fire with record.

Speaker 5 (18:46):
Maybe I have no idea, but at the point is
like j Bett does not strike me as a guy
who's like gonna go cheap or shortcut route. I think
he wants to make his sort of legacy move and
put his stamp on the whole athletic garments. So I
don't see that happening. And at Michigan State State specifically,
I mean, this almost never works out when people fall
for it, but at Michigan State specifically, I don't think

(19:09):
there's any appetite to throw the interim a bone and say,
all right, let's see what you got type of saying,
given how that's worked in the past here, So zero
percent chance of that happening. Really all they'd be doing,
quite honestly, at that point those four games you're talking about,
they would really just be auditioning for coaches for their
next job and players for their next program. See who
wants to come get me in the portal here, Because

(19:30):
there'd be nothing in terms of value to Michigan State
that would carry over at that point, even if they
were to go seven to five or whatever.

Speaker 2 (19:35):
You just said.

Speaker 1 (19:38):
Yeah, let's talk about a couple of the names that
we have heard or are hearing, and one of the
most prominent is Brent Key. He is the coach at
Georgia Tech Jay Bats Guy. Georgia Tech is six and zero,
ranked twelfth in the country. They visit Duke that's a

(20:01):
dangerous team. That is Saturday at noon. Then they entertained Syracuse.
It's not a guarantee, but they'll be favored certainly. They're
at North Carolina State, same Boston College, which has fallen
out of the plane without a parachute. Then they finish
against Pittsburgh paton Ardoozy having a good year, not a

(20:24):
great year, but a very good year. That is a
home game and then another home game against Georgia. And
if you remember the game against Georgia last year, that
was eight overtimes eight and Georgia Tech should have won
that game. They really outplayed Georgia in every way, managed

(20:44):
to not make a two point conversion and lost that game.
But if Georgia Tech can run the table here and
be twelve and zero and certainly be a top ten team,
then is that something you can see happening? And if
it is, you got to wait a long time because
now you're talking about a coach who's going to be

(21:07):
in the playoff, might win a playoff game or two.
You're talking about somebody who's not going to come in
until late January. Probably is that a viable option for
Michigan State.

Speaker 5 (21:22):
I think it makes a lot of sense. I think
it'd be a pretty good hire considering. I mean, look,
we got to say it too at the top of this,
This does not appear to be a great cycle to
be firing your coach. You know, there's not an abundance
of clear up and comers. You know, there's not a
lot of those PJ. Fleck Western Michigan types. There's not
even a lot of Jonathan Smith types, you know that
are gettable out there. Mike Elko's at Duke the last

(21:44):
time around.

Speaker 4 (21:44):
You know so.

Speaker 5 (21:47):
And I don't think it's a super clear and obvious
easy coaching market to be into, especially if you start
talking about Florida may be opening, maybe Auburn's opening too.
You already got Virginia Tech, you already got Forest. Were
just talking about Florida State, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (22:02):
You know so.

Speaker 5 (22:03):
And some people are predicting a pretty wild cycle here
as everybody you know is running around with cash and
trying to make moves and then trying to establish himself.

Speaker 2 (22:11):
So anyway to Brent.

Speaker 5 (22:13):
Key, you know, I think if he does all those
things at the bad time, because I don't know that
he feels he needs to leave Georgia Tech. You know,
you're in the ACC. You're really going to play like
one to two good teams every year and then you
can just dance your way into the playoffs. Like the
level of competition just isn't there compared to the Big ten,
and you can still do every If he does all that,
he wins a couple of playoff games, even he's got

(22:33):
to sit back and say, wait a second, what am
I going to do? Much like Kurt Signetti and the
discussions around him, what am I going to do in
Michigan State that I'm not already doing here? He's in
Atlanta surrounded by a ton of talent. If you can
be the big fish in the ACC, you know, again,
it's not a hard road.

Speaker 2 (22:48):
You have Miami and sort.

Speaker 5 (22:49):
Of the withering corpse of Clemson. I guess maybe Florida
State gets it right, but it's just not the same
level of competition as up here. So I don't know
if it necessarily he wants to leave there I've heard
some things that he really does not and would not
be interested in leaving there at this point in time.
So I think you kind of need him to fall
in the space a little bit and put a little

(23:10):
dirt on his resume if you're going to have a
shot at him. I know Jay Beatt has the relationship.
I'm sure that that will at least be considered, but
I don't know that. Again, I don't know that he's
gonna be willing to leave, and b like I just said,
I don't know that he if it even makes a
lot of sense for him to leave. If he's got
a nice thing going, he's got a rolling in an
easy winnable league, why would you feel the need to

(23:31):
come up here? I guess in a lot of ways.

Speaker 1 (23:34):
If Michigan State is paying Jonathan Smith's seven and a
half million dollars, which seems like a boatload of money
to me, but it is the tenth highest salary and
an eighteen team conference, and we know that Brent Key
is making less than that at Georgia Tech. Let's say
Georgia Tech said, Okay, we're going to pay you eight

(23:55):
million dollars, would in Michigan State be prepared to break
the bank. They've already got a thirty two million dollar
buyout here that they're staring at. Don't forget that's real money.
That's not something you can just write a check for it.
You have to be able to pay it. But you

(24:15):
have to do something because they're not going to sell
season tickets next year with Jonathan Smith leading this program,
and they're not going to be able to get the
kind of donations they need to compete in name, image
and likeness, or even just the revenue share twenty million
if football doesn't show a pulse. So do you think

(24:38):
Michigan State would say, Okay, this is our guy. We've
identified a guy. He's a Saban protegee. We know the problem.
Offensive lines have been here Georgia Tech's offensive lines not
the problem, and we're going to pay this guy ten
million dollars.

Speaker 4 (24:54):
Could you see that happening?

Speaker 5 (24:58):
I guess, because I mean I can kind of you
can kind of see anything happening in this era. Would
it be the smartest thing when you're paying Jonaal Smith
that much? And I mean, I think Brent Key's a
good coach. I wouldn't have the same positive reaction though,
to hiring him that I had when they hired Jonas.

Speaker 2 (25:13):
You know, JOHNA.

Speaker 5 (25:14):
Smith would come in I think as a probably a
more proven coach, at least for now. I guess we'll
see how Key finishes out, but I think he would
be a good.

Speaker 2 (25:22):
Hire, maybe about as good as they could do.

Speaker 5 (25:24):
Again, this cycle doesn't look super attractive when you look
across the board, but I thought John Smith was a
great hire. Obviously it has not worked out, and we've
talked many times about how you can't predict these things.
Luke Fickle was a a plus hire for Wisconsin and
that's going up in flames. Scott Frost, a plus hire,
didn't work out at all. Nebraska, Jim Harbaugh a plus
hire took some time, eventually worked out, dubious circumstances, whatever.

(25:47):
But just you cannot predict these things, no matter how
good of a fit they might be or how bad
it might be on surface. So I don't know if
you break the bank up to the point. For Brent Keeth,
I don't know if.

Speaker 2 (25:57):
He's there yet.

Speaker 5 (25:57):
You know, I guess i'd have to know their other
options and what else they have. But you know that
is a wild card because Jabet has worked intimately with him,
he knows him very very well.

Speaker 2 (26:06):
Yeah, and if he truly believes.

Speaker 5 (26:08):
He's a can't miss type of guy, then yeah, I
could see him doing something like that and really making
a statement and say, hey, you you are leaving Georgia Tech,
but you don't have a choice.

Speaker 2 (26:16):
Here's here's the check.

Speaker 5 (26:17):
You know, fill in the numbers. You are leaving. Just
tell us how to get it done. If he feels
that strongly about him, then sure, But I don't know
if that's the case.

Speaker 1 (26:27):
There's a segment, Stephen, and you probably know some of
these people who want a spartan, they want someone who
is from here, and they'll they'll hit you with the
you know, Biggie Duffy, George was a Spartan. Nick had
been here, came back, D'Antonio had been here, came back.

(26:48):
They think that is particularly important. Do you think there's
any chance that that would happen? And you know, maybe
that that's a Nardoozie type. Some people have even mentioned
Pat Shermer's name, although he had two failed stints in
the National Football League now he's now at Colorado. Do

(27:09):
you think there's any chance they would go that direction?
Or Jay Batt is certainly not wetted to that.

Speaker 5 (27:16):
I'd be very surprised if that was some sort of
like marching order. I mean, Jay Bat's not from here.
He's gonna be teering the ship. I don't think he's
gonna really care about that unless it was sort of
made and non negotiable to him by the money people.
But I think at this point the money people are
gonna say, go get us the best coach and start
winning games now, please, And they're not going to care
if he's from Mars, you know, as long as a

(27:37):
guy can win.

Speaker 2 (27:38):
So that's kind of my sense of it.

Speaker 5 (27:40):
I mean, the problem is, as we all know, D'Antonio
stuck with his guys, you know, for the better part
of that thirteen years. Nardoozi is the only one who
left an S and had a little bit of success,
So there's not like a big crop to pull from.
There's not this D'Antonio tree, and Nardozzi's getting up there,
and you know, he's kind of had a you know,
up and down time there. Every time it looks really dismal,

(28:01):
he seems to pull out a decent season and give
himself a little more time.

Speaker 2 (28:05):
So he credit to him there.

Speaker 5 (28:06):
I mean, there are were side coaches, there are people
that had worse ten years, but he.

Speaker 1 (28:11):
Was to win the press conference when people are looking
for someone with personality. And I think that's one of
the biggest knocks against Jonathan. It's the style. It's that
he looks so detached and you listen to him. You know,
if someone told me that they couldn't lead a pack
of scouts across the street with the traffic light, you know,
and fair or not, that is the perception. That's never

(28:34):
been a problem with Pat, who will tell you exactly
what he thinks, and the problem is you can't print
half of it. So you know, he was known for
coming down from the press box to the sideline and
basically challenging his own players to fist fights. But you know,
it worked, and you know, Michigan State wound up with

(28:55):
a Rose Bowl win and much much more. In the
Dardoozy era, I call it the D'Antonio Nardoozy era because
I think he was clearly the second one and the
guy who really gave. He was kind of like a
good cop, bad cop deal with D'Antonio, only usually it's
the other way. The assistant is a good cop. In

(29:18):
this case, there was a real fear factor. So that's
just one option, and I agree with you it's highly unlikely.
I want to talk about some coaches and if you
don't think it's important that he'd be from Michigan State,
I think a lot of people think that it is
important that he knows the Big Ten, that he knows
the region, that he has maybe been in Spartan Stadium once,

(29:42):
that he understands what Michigan State is all about. And
there are some coaches in this league whose names have
come up and would be or might be available. Let
me give you three of them. A lot of people
think that PJ. Fleck, who would win any press conference,

(30:02):
is going to be out at Minnesota. They think that,
you know, he's his actors, Warren Thin, They've reached whatever
they can do there.

Speaker 4 (30:11):
And PJ.

Speaker 1 (30:12):
Fleck would certainly embrace a chance to be at another
Big Ten program then Minnesota, even though he talks about
it and you know he represents But if he had
a chance to coach at Michigan State or Michigan, I'm
sure he would jump at that. There's Pat Fitzgerald, who
had I think amazing success. You know, you're talking about

(30:36):
five double digit win seasons at Northwestern, You're talking about
eight Bowl wins at Northwestern. You're talking about a guy
who was the youngest coach in the country when he started,
and he is still young. He's in his early fifties,
so he could be around for a long time. And
he was pretty much exonerated in terms of the hazing episode.

(31:00):
But you know, he's got a lot of money now.
It looks like with that settlement he's going to have
from Northwestern, you know, he's looking for a chance to
come in and shove it up people's rear and show
that you know, hey, hey, I'm a good coach. I
was a good coach. And there are people who would
die for Pat Fitzgerald. I know some of them. The

(31:22):
other name is James Franklin, and we were just talking
about the chance that Matt Ruhle at Nebraska is going
to succeed James Franklin. He's going to move, He's going
to go home. He's going to go back to Penn
State where he played, and he says how much he
loves Penn State. If that happens, some people think James

(31:45):
Franklin's going to wind up at Nebraska, So it's going
to be a trade rule for Franklin. But would Michigan
State want to get into James Franklin sweep stakes. Yeah,
he can't win the biggest of big games, but first
you have to win the small ones, medium ones, and
James Franklin has won eleven games or more five times,

(32:05):
and he's one of only four who have done that,
with Urban Meyer, Ryan Day and Mark D'Antonio. So any
of those three, I think that you think that would
be a great fit at Michigan State.

Speaker 5 (32:20):
Yes, so I think there's a there's a pecking order.
PJ absolutely not start at the bottom. I guess, okay,
you know, I don't think he's done enough to really
excite folks. I think he's kind of shown his ceiling.
I don't think a lot of people would buy into
that is really being a difference maker long term in
terms of raising the ceiling, in terms of getting Michigan
State in the playoffs consistently. He's had more than enough

(32:43):
time that Minnesota has sort of tried to show that
they really haven't other than a couple of blips. So
I just don't think he excites at this point. I
think he kind of is what he is and what
he's doing in at Minnesota. Maybe eight nine wins ceiling
is probably about what he would do here. I don't
think that's what they're shooting for here. The next tier up, Yeah,
go Franklin. Look, he could do a whole lot worse.
And if he went, I think he would win comparably

(33:04):
to how he won a Penn State and probably would
still struggle in the big year.

Speaker 4 (33:08):
He could bring in the staff, he could bring in
some players.

Speaker 5 (33:12):
Oh yeah, he would recruit well. He's been a proven
recruiter in Detroit, specifically, he has a lot of recognition there,
so he would recruit well right away. I'm sure he
would win pretty much right away, but I still think
he'd eventually run into the same issues of winning the
big one. And but but still, I think I think
it takes a good ten years to get sick of that,
probably before you're really sure. Well, he does have a

(33:34):
track record, so maybe he wouldn't get but still, and
the few folks I know would take a good, good
run of six seven years of ten to eleven wins
even if it wasn't if it was short of a
national title, so they could do a lot worse than that,
I do thinking about this. The one thing that struck
me with him though, is we all know him and
Mark D'Antonio were in best buddies, and it's not that
Antonio is the biggest power broker, But I do wonder

(33:57):
if that would be a thing at all, you know,
would he really be comfortable with it? Because he does
self a presence around the program, not a big one,
but it's still his aura is still around it. And
I don't know, I guess the degree to which their
relationship is, but I just kind of wonder if if
he would be fully on board with that, and if
that would cause a little uneasiness with Jay Batt With
tom Izzo, I'm sure he's going to have a big

(34:17):
voice in this with they would would D'Antonio and his
relationship have any kind of effect on it? I don't know.
It's just something I thought about that I think is
worth thinking about. Maybe it's nothing, Maybe it's something Pat
Vzgerald for me, would be a top tier sort of thing.
You forget about him because he's not out there. I
think somebody's gonna get him, and someone's gonna be happy
that they did. Like you mentioned, all the accomplishments. He's

(34:38):
a proven coach. Young guys still would come back with
an edge, as you mentioned, which I think Michigan State
would would grab onto. He has a lot of the
same values and fundamentals that folks around here would appreciate
if they could get that done. And he's a really
interesting wild card. I don't know what he wants to
do or how soon he wants to do it, but

(34:59):
you know, there might be a little bit of question
because of Michigan State's history and his history with a
little baggage.

Speaker 2 (35:03):
You have to smooth that over.

Speaker 5 (35:04):
Get the pr right. I don't think it's a deal
breaker by any means. It's just something that has to
be considered. But I think he'd be a really good get,
would stabilize things. Like I said, come in with a hunger.

Speaker 2 (35:15):
I think he'd recruit.

Speaker 5 (35:16):
He'd have a brand name behind him. Now eventually maybe again,
you run into that issue of getting over the hump
from good to great. He never really did that Northwestern.

Speaker 4 (35:25):
How would you up in the talent.

Speaker 1 (35:27):
He had a Northwestern and the players he could get.
I mean, you know, to expect him to win a
national championship, there is you know, pretty delusional, I would think.
But Pat Fitzgerald did turn the University of Michigan down twice,
including once when Dave Brandon flew to Chicago with the contract,

(35:48):
and you know, maybe there's something to that. Certainly has
the personality. You know, he is an enthusiastic I mean,
if you're talking about an energy gap, Pat Fitzgerald gets
out of bed with more energy than most people have
if they have been sucking camp caffeine for eight hours.

Speaker 2 (36:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (36:12):
And I think you get a great version of him,
you know, I mean, he'd bear in Northwestern a long time,
he had some success. I don't know, maybe it just
you know, we've seen change of scenery, help people, and
what he's gone through trying to get his name back
and everything. I think you get a really good version
of him. I think he'd be energized to sort of
navigate this landscape, you know, at least you hope so,

(36:32):
because why get into it, you know, if not go
to the NFL or just sit on your big pile
of money. You now, if you're not ready to get
dirty and you know, roll up your sleeves with with
all that this era takes. But I think you'd get
a good version of him, motivated to I guess said,
continue to sort of reclaim his name a little bit.
I think there's some some similarities with what he did
well at Northwestern that would play well here. With the defense,

(36:53):
with the physicality, blue collar nature to it all, there'd
be a lot of that. I think it would be
a very very good fit. I don't have a lot
of outside. Like I said, you have to move out
the pr part a little bit.

Speaker 2 (37:03):
But as you said, I.

Speaker 5 (37:03):
Mean, I think that's fairly easy to do. He's basically
been cleared of all that stuff, so I think that'd
be a minor, minor hurdle. I don't know if you'd
have to necessarily break the bank for him, unless he's
in a bidding war.

Speaker 2 (37:14):
I mean, maybe Michigan comes open.

Speaker 5 (37:15):
That's something I think has to be discussed too. And
I think that's something that some coaches an agents are
thinking about if they really slide here with when you know,
once they fall out of the playoffs and and whatnot,
do they want to stick around with Sharon more because
that would be a huge wild card in the coaching carouself.

Speaker 2 (37:31):
But yeah, I think Passager would be a great pick
for him.

Speaker 5 (37:34):
And probably one of the one of the safest, and
one of the highest ceilings. At the same time, I
don't have a I don't have a lot of bad
things to say about it. If they were able to
go in that direction, I would celebrate that.

Speaker 1 (37:44):
I'm gonna give you one other big ten name, and
this is not a guy who has any head coaching experience,
but he's going to be a hot one in the cycle,
and somebody is gonna is going to buy in and say,
you know, he is the guy. He is the next guy,
and that's Brian Hartline. And I wanted him to get
a long look the last time. It didn't happen, But

(38:07):
he is now the offensive coordinator. Chip Kelly is gone
at Ohio State. He was an outstanding receiver there, a
guy who made himself into a player long career in
the National Football League, had more than four hundred catches.
There Again, you know undrafted guy a lot of izzo

(38:30):
in Brian Hartline. He's been named the top recruiter in
college football. Now it looks like you got a great
chance to come in as a back to back national champ.
The big problem with Brian Hartline is again you're talking
about going to February, you know, almost before you could

(38:53):
really have him on the ground running certainly well into January,
depending what Ohio state does you know? Do you want
to basically just write this off and say, you know,
bring in who you can and uh, you know, we're
going to give you a long leash. But I think
that any team that gets Brian Hartline is going to
be really happy they did.

Speaker 5 (39:15):
They could be, and it could be one of those
scenarios where we go, geez, how did everybody miss that
for so long? You know? I mean, he's everything you said.

Speaker 2 (39:21):
He's got a very good reputation. I could see it that.

Speaker 5 (39:25):
The thing is, though, well, first of all, I thought
you were gonna mention will Sein at Orgon. He's kind
of a hot coordinator right now. And it turns out
his wife actually has some some Lancing area ties, so
maybe there's something in play there. But but my bigger
thing is I just don't know that. I mean, if
you think about being in j bats shoes, you're you're
cutting a huge check to get rid of this guy,

(39:46):
and now you're going to basically risk your position on
a first time head coach in this competitive Big ten environment.

Speaker 2 (39:53):
I mean maybe's coach.

Speaker 1 (39:57):
Yes, yes, but you know who else was some guy
named Izzo?

Speaker 4 (40:01):
You know who else was some guy named Nightingale.

Speaker 5 (40:05):
Right right, all different eras though, you know, in different
different spots. I just this is basically going to be
Jabad's job on the line, you know. And now he
starts the clock, really his tenure when he makes this higher.
So is he going to be comfortable and willing or
the donor is going to be comfortable and willing to
take an experiment? And I've never been a head coach
candidate before, I don't know. I just think that's something
to consider for a guy in his position, with all

(40:26):
the all the that's on his plate. Was he going
to be willing to risk this huge pivotal move on
somebody like that? I will say too, if Wisconsin's not
smart enough to hire my guy, Jason ec out of
New Mexico, I bet you could get him for fairly cheap,
and I know that he would do. He'd make you
a winner. I'm confident in that. And again the highest
level of winning. I don't know, but the way he

(40:46):
flips that who comes.

Speaker 1 (40:48):
In here and doesn't move the needle and is at
a disadvantage before he starts. And I think will Stein
and Jason Eck a great name, They're going to be
great candidates, probably excellent choices for someone I want someone.
And normally I say winning the press conference doesn't matter here.

(41:10):
I think the important thing is getting everybody excited about this,
and even more so now than ever because stadium was
empty last week the start of the fourth quarter. I
know a lot of people have already decided they're not
buying tickets next year. And for Michigan State to be
a player, which it needs to be in name, image

(41:33):
and likeness and revenue sharing, all of those kinds of things,
it's going to take people believing, buying in and digging deep.
And I think it's important Michigan State have kind of
a sexy hire here.

Speaker 2 (41:48):
I agree with that.

Speaker 5 (41:50):
Like I said, though, I just don't know that there's
many out there, like Passage Jared would be that, James
Franklin would be that, maybe Brent Gee would be that.
You know how many Michigan State Big ten fans really
know brink Still and what he doing.

Speaker 2 (42:00):
Yeah, I'm not a lot. I don't think there's a
lot of Yeah, I don't.

Speaker 5 (42:04):
Think there's a lot of that flashy, you know, sex
appeal out on the market, So I just don't know
if that's going to be in the cards period. I
do agree that I don't like that.

Speaker 1 (42:12):
I mean, he's a you know, he's he's more energetic
than Jonathan Smith. But you know, there's a long, long way,
a big gap from Brent Key to fits or you know, PJ.

Speaker 4 (42:26):
Fleck is off the charts with that.

Speaker 1 (42:28):
But I do think it's important that somebody who can
get the base excited again and they haven't been that in.

Speaker 5 (42:35):
A long time, right right, Yeah, I just don't think
that from what I can tell. So, I mean that's
another name that's hot that I don't know if there's
going to be a fit or in the conversation here
anything is Alex Golesh down at South Florida. But like,
by now, that's we've not named basically all the hot
names and candidates and everything, and of that group, like
I said, only a couple are really splashes. I mean
Urban Meyer would be a splash. I guess I don't

(42:56):
think that's going to be a thing. So like it's
it's yeah, it's Franklin, It's Fitzgerald.

Speaker 2 (43:02):
And then it's.

Speaker 5 (43:02):
Everybody else in terms of that key, I guess would
probably be the biggest in terms of a sitting head coach.
People would do their research and whatnot, but it's yeah,
I don't think from what looks like as you try
to map out sort of the reasonable candidate pool, there's
not a lot that's going to be a groundshaker, I
don't think.

Speaker 1 (43:20):
And let me give you one other name, and people
are gonna roll their eyes at this one, but I'll
tell you. You mentioned Mark D'Antonio, and he's D'antonio's guy.
I mean, Mark goes and sees Paton Ordosey and this
guy every year, and he has a winning resume for

(43:40):
the most part, and he was hot candidate for Michigan
State before they didn't get them. What if Michigan State
made a run at Luke Vikel and said it didn't
work at Wisconsin, but it would hear?

Speaker 2 (43:57):
Oh, absolutely not, absolutely no.

Speaker 5 (44:00):
Not the way he's crashed and burned there, He's he's
lit his sock on fire.

Speaker 2 (44:04):
There's nothing that he's done in Wisconsin that makes you go,
I want some of that.

Speaker 5 (44:08):
And you know, people still remember last time. They kind
of feel still spurned by that and all the total
about his family.

Speaker 1 (44:14):
The only time that a group of five team has
made the college football Playoff, the coach was Louke Fickle.

Speaker 2 (44:21):
Yeah, no, I get it, but he's he's sullied that.
You know that. That's especially in today's the world, how
fast things move.

Speaker 5 (44:26):
That's that's ages ago, in the in the currency landscape
of today. The other one I'll throw out real quick,
I think, is this at least worth a call poking around?
Somebody's got to get him sometime. Is Matt Campbell out
of Iowa. Say, I still think he's a good coach.
He's lost some luster, but the Ohio guy change the
scenery to a real confident league out here. I would

(44:47):
at least call him, I'd want I'd be interested in him,
for you.

Speaker 4 (44:50):
Know, you can't get Dan Campbell. Maybe you get Matt
Campbell right exactly.

Speaker 2 (44:55):
Call way, see what you thinks.

Speaker 4 (44:57):
The last thing I want to hit you with on
this is you know what Jonathan Smith's record is at
Michigan State.

Speaker 5 (45:05):
It's eight and ten eight and ten, correct.

Speaker 1 (45:09):
Which isn't that much different from the start with Duffy
Doherty or Nick Saban, better than George Purlis's start not
that much different a little bit than Mark d'antonio's. But
you know who had a four nineteen and one record

(45:30):
in his first twenty four games. No, Dan Campbell with
the Detroit Lions.

Speaker 2 (45:40):
All right, my head was not on the right spot.

Speaker 5 (45:43):
Yeah, No, I mean it does feel weird to be
talking about this the six games in the year two, right,
And I do think that there's some good stuff to
Jonn Smith and his fast but when you look at
the whole totality of it, I mean, where can you
really say that the program has made progress.

Speaker 2 (46:01):
Through eighteen games?

Speaker 5 (46:02):
Now, eighteen doesn't sound like a lot, but we talk
about it here every week. This game doesn't connect to
the last game, doesn't connect to the next game. You know,
we talked about Child's growth a little bit and now
weren't talking about regression. The offensive line hasn't improved, The
run game is nothing as it was the first day
he got here. I mean, there's just there's Recruiting is
in basically the same spot, Like, there's nothing that's really advanced.

(46:25):
So how is it going to advance over the back
half of this with less momentum, with less support, with
a harder schedule. You know, it's just that's the bummer
is just nothing's moving forward. I don't think he's, you know,
the worst coach that's ever walked the sidelines or anything,
but things are not moving forward. And again, just to
circle back, I mean, the folks have already decided how

(46:46):
they felt about him, a lot of people a long
time ago. And when it's not moving forward, it's to
the writings on the wall, and I think that's where
we are.

Speaker 1 (46:56):
Yeah, I want to give you another coach here, and
let's talk about his first eighteen games.

Speaker 4 (47:07):
Okay, let's see that would be all right?

Speaker 1 (47:16):
How about four and fourteen for Kirk Farence his first
eighteen games at Iowa.

Speaker 5 (47:27):
We might as well be talking like pre dinosaur era
at this point.

Speaker 2 (47:32):
They're like with the era.

Speaker 4 (47:35):
Era, right, it doesn't matter, it's irrelevant.

Speaker 5 (47:38):
Yeah, it's not even comparable. No, I mean he would
have been fired in these days, so that's where you know,
he would have been fired a long time ago, would
have been fired, So it's not even comparable.

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