December 11, 2025 • 46 mins
Catch “The Drive with Spence Checketts” from 2 pm to 6 pm weekdays on ESPN 700 & 92.1 FM. Produced by Porter Larsen. The latest on the Utah Jazz, Real Salt Lake, Utes, BYU + more sports storylines.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
One of my favorite guests live in studio for an
entire hour. Former athletic director of the University of Utah
and a good friend of the show, Doctor Chris Hill,
is live on a wed or excuse me on a Thursday.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Happy Thursday, sir, how are you?
Speaker 3 (00:12):
I'm doing great. I mean you'll be jealous. But I
walk nine today, walk nine yesterday.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
I was going to ask you, like, you know, with
the with the weather being what it is, I would
imagine there's an opportunity to swing a club, I'm gonna
try to get out on Sunday.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Well, you know, for me, I this time of year
like cross country schime. I like it a lot, some
peaceful yeah, and usually when there's not snow on the ground,
it's cold. Kathy and I will sometimes go to country
club walk to back nine for our exercise beautiful. So
I went up yesterday and I said, wait a minute,
why I'll just bring some clubs to me while I'm walking.
Love it, And so you know today I don't you know,
(00:45):
we need snow. Yeah, But at the same time, if
if you don't snow to listens, wind about not have snow,
go do something fun.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Well, I'm one and I know this isn't necessarily a
popular take, and I know you're gonna laugh at me.
But as I get older, okay, I am lesson inclined
to I said this to a friend the other day.
I could live the rest of my life and not
see a snowflake and be fine.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
I don't give a rip.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
I don't want it, but I know there are a
lot of people around here that love.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
It, so hopefully we get it at some point. Yeah,
the cold's not an enemy for me. Uh you know, well,
we grew up in the Northeast. The winter there is different, yes,
so for me outside and it's for thirty five degrees
here and you have a sweater on.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Yeah, no, for sure, freak out. No, for sure.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
Like I always tell people that complain about the winter here,
Like you know, go to Chicago in February, go to
New York and jan You're like your breath stops inside
of your chest. It's a different thing, that moist cold. Yea,
that moist cold. So it's not an enemy for me. Well,
it's great to see you as always. It's a great
week to have you in And you know, I understand
based off of your relationships and the nature of who
(01:45):
you are, You've got to be careful about certain things.
So as I always say, just tap out of any
answer you want to give me, or handle it any
way you want to. And look, I have a lot
of well family members, namely my father and brother that
are in private equity. Of my twelve best high school friends,
I think seven of them are finance guys. So I
feel like I've been drinking through a water hose to
(02:07):
get an MBA in finance over the past seventy two hours.
But the University of Utah this week it was announced
that they have struck a deal with Outro Capital to
infuse the program and potentially institution with some immedia cash
and we'll see what they do with it. Let me
just ask you your instant reaction to this when you
heard the news.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
Well, I think people thought this guy's falling. And when
you say I don't want to pick on your family
members or your friends, when you soon as just say
venture capital or a go oh my god, there are sharks.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
They're going to cut everybody. I'm gonna be dead. It's
they're going to pillage and plunder.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Yeah, but you have to take a look and say,
what what are the options University Utah has and you know,
borrowing money or finding billionaires or trying something innovative. I mean,
it's an emergency business.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
You know.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
They got to come up with a minimum the twenty
millionaire nuts on top of the regular budget, you know,
so it's not all of a sudden and it's got
to be every year, right, So it's not like somebody
gives you five one year and then not the next.
So this seems like the best option to start getting
money early on. You know, there is no five year
plan anymore.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
One of the best articles I ever read was from
the Harvard Business Review that said the art of muddling
through The story was you have your five year plan
because that was real popular years and year. But if
your five year plan looks the same in five years,
you didn't react to the environment, and right now people aren't.
You don't read that about five year plan. You know
what you want to be and it's pretty simple. In athletics,
(03:33):
just win baby and be in a big conference. And
if there's a reduction of a number of football teams,
you better be in it.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
I mean, you know what that is.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
And so you got to live through today and tomorrow,
in the next year or two, and when the Texas
Tech thing, you know, that just scares everybody. But if
they get some kind of way of putting a cap
on the salaries and if they pay the people, it's
like the good old ways under the table and we
won't have to worry about it.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
You just don't get cont TEP stuff. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well a lot of layers to this. And you reference
Texas Tech, you know, we'll bring BYU into the equation here,
because if you're Taylor Randall, if you're Mark Harlan, if
you're among the leaders up there, your task is you
have to find a way to keep up with SEC
(04:22):
and big ten schools that have bigger TV distributions per membership.
But then you have to look in your own backyard
and say, well, wait a second. It's clear that BYU's
financial model is working and has worked now for three
four years. The stories about Cody Campbell and oil money
for Texas Tech are well documented. Utah had to find
their Cody Campbell, They had to find their cookie bro
(04:43):
the cookie money the BYU has. Utah had to find
their answer to that. So you're keeping up with the
two conferences that have better TV deals than you do.
But you're also keeping up with the school in your
backyard and then the school in Texas that has a
tremendous amount of resources, and by all reports, the two
schools with the biggest deepest pockets in the big twelve
R BUYU in Texas Tech. They just played for the
(05:05):
conference championship. Oh yeah, so this had to be Utah's
answer to that, right well, and I don't know if
they can get to that answer. The answer to me
is that plus also having some kind of if this
twenty point five million is real, then they can only
pay their players directly twenty five million, then they have
these other nil things which might be corrupt or whatever.
(05:25):
You know, as we were talking off air, The bottom
line is why can't we take some part of the
NFL model?
Speaker 3 (05:30):
I mean, I'm a big believer. Okay, this is what
we got to do. So every day we've got to
wake up and figure that out. Yeah, you know, and
not be afraid of it. But you know, Texas Tech
and b why you can buy players? Now, I understand
that may not be just the same way.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
You know that.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
You can't if you want to give somebody seven million dollars. Fine,
but then you got thirteen million left, right, I mean,
you know, and so I don't want to be naive
by any way, but you know, schools have always had
more money than Utah, and we've been able to compete.
But as long as there's somehow we can spend the
same amount of money out of your own university resources,
(06:08):
then you got a chance to have similar players. Not
the portal screws that all up. But you know, college
football is chaotic, yea, I mean it just I just
I just laugh and think. You know, you've got you know,
four equations and you can't solve for it one time, right,
it doesn't work?
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Yeah, Well, you know, the reports are that the athletic
department is in a tremendous amount of debt.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Now it does.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
That's not a thing that is unique to Utah. It's
actually pretty common across the landscape of even some of
the biggest athletic departments in America. Ohio State reported a
thirty seven million dollar debt last year after making about
two hundred and sixty million. Yeah, the Utah numbers is
their revenue, according to what you can just find online,
is they made one hundred nine million dollars last year,
(06:53):
but their expenses were one hundred and twenty five You
ran these departments. To me, it seems like college athletics
does not have a revenue generating problem and has a
spending problem.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Well yeah, what I've always said is is we're.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
A business on the revenue side and a charity on
the other side. Oh okay, okay, you got it. And
so you and you do things that aren't logical, you know.
I mean, if if the late Larry Miller didn't want
to pay his coach, he couldn't get fired. You know,
Larry's not could get fired, right, Yeah, yeah, I mean,
but now you've got people in charge, and all the
(07:28):
coach has to do is kind of wink at some
boosters and say, I don't know if you know they're
paying me a nuch. You know, Goad, I have a
story for you. One of the ads anew years ago,
he was I won't tell the school. He was a
big twelve school, lots of money, oil money. So he
calls me one day he says, well, this is a
definition of how this happens. One of our coaches was
(07:50):
going to take a big time job and he was
very successful, and I'll tell you off the air. And
so the President calls the a D the next day.
No problem, we're paying them a million dollars more. He's
gone from three to four. And the ad goes where
I'm going to get the money, And the President says, listen,
we got a three hundred billion dollar budget. Do you
(08:12):
think they're going to understand these oil guys and cowboys
that I lost the guy for a million dollars?
Speaker 2 (08:18):
Boom, it's done. It's play money.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
And then I'm then I'm looking at and saying, okay,
the buyouts, So okay, let's be honest. We all want
colony to get his money right.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Gotta bam, gotta bam, gotta pay m gotta bam. Eight
years later, how come here have such a big buyout? Gosh, daughter,
how did that happen? You know?
Speaker 3 (08:37):
But you're I walked a mile on those shoes about,
you know, trying to hold the line. And there is
no reward in this day and age for an athletic
director or a president to save money on paying somebody
pay him too much. You're in debt, Dad from Ohio State,
(08:57):
He's in debt. You know, as long as you win
foot or you have a good football coach and you
don't cause them to be gone. Yeah, you don't get
fired for that, right, I mean, you just don't. Ye know,
So what what's the difference whether you're paying them ten
or fourteen?
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (09:11):
To your point, the only difference is whether or not
it's affecting your bottom line at the end of the
fiscal year when you have this debt to service. Now,
the interesting thing is not all debt is created equal.
And I don't know what the details are of Utah's
debt or Colorado's debt which is twenty seven mil. Like,
if you have a debt that the interest rate is
three three to four percent, but you're utilizing your cash
(09:31):
flow to make ten percent on top of it, you're
actually coming out on top. But do you anticipate the
initial infusion of cash to simply go to service that
that's what most people believe is going to happen. They
have to get out from underneath this debt.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
I don't think that'll happen. I don't think they have
to if they're doing this. And you know, I'm not
as familiar with debt. We did it two years but
the university, you know, we paid it back, but it
wasn't like ridiculous five million. Yeah, but you know, I
think that if if the money that they're going to
get hopefully and I hope it works because I want
the uths to do well, yeah, you know, And so
(10:08):
if that money's not seen as being spent on acquiring players,
people are gonna say, what's going on?
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Yeah, where's that money going. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
If the players, which you know, it's good they're getting paid,
but if they're not getting money, and the roomor on
the street is we're not paying twenty million, we're not
doing this, people can't really question any discisions. Yeah, players
better have money.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
And the complicated part because you reference the twenty point
five million, and that's across P four, so that at
least is one thing that's regulated. So it's not like
Texas Tech has forty million to pay in Utah's twenty
point five. No, twenty point five is the number. And
by the way, that's for all student athletes. Most schools
allocate you know, probably sixteen to seventeen of that to
(10:49):
the football program thereabouts where the line of delineation comes
in on the other side of that, which is nil. Right,
what you can pay the players on top of the
twenty eight point five million that the school can pay them,
and the reports are that you know, we'll get to Klounie.
He said no to Penn State and it was rewarded handsomely.
(11:09):
According to reports, He's now the second highest paid coach
in the Big twelve to Dion Jay Hill gets a raised,
Aaron Rodger gets a raised, His coaches get raises. But
he he mandated that if he signed a new contract,
he needed between ten to fifteen million dollars of additional
NIL revenue based off of what they already had. That's
the number that I haven't seen. But if it's ten
(11:30):
to fifteen million dollars additionally to the nil prior to,
it's probably in the area of twenty twenty five mil.
Meaning this BYU as an institution can pay their athletes
twenty point five million dollars in salaries, and if the
numbers are correct, they also have we'll call it an
additional twenty million dollars to utilize for nil. That to me,
(11:52):
Doctor Hill is where and I don't know what Utah's
numbers are. That to me continues to be the big
question mark. Absolutely, can you TAH keep up that attendant
to space.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
Well, you know, and and in theory which I the
NCAA just keeps getting sued and that's what's going to
happen again and again and keep losing and keep losing,
you know, the over But you know, according to what
they're saying now is that nil money has to have
some legitimacy to it.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Yeah, you have to.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
So the BYU has fifteen million dollars, it's hard to
imagine that a quarterback can generate five million dollars when
marketing probably can't do that in the city. Okay, you know,
so that's the theory. Okay, And that's what I said earlier,
is that, well that's the theory. So though people will
stick to that, but the cheaters will figure out how
(12:42):
to cheat. But because the court of public opinion is
I'll just play the payer players, you know, and and
there there's no we'll get back to there's no the
expense side, you know, we always forget about that and
and I know, but it's so you can't say, as
an athletic director, we don't really need one hundred and
(13:04):
five guys, you know, we really don't. Besides that, we've
got the portal and if we have any weaknesses, we'll
just go get those guys, you know.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
And that's like you can't say that poor.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
Little kids, you're taking money away from you're not supporting
the coach. But everybody knows that, you know. But those
are tough things for people to do, especially it gets
back to the whole You got to win a football
that's the deal, and that's the prestige. And if you
seem to be doing anything to unilatterly disarm you're dead.
(13:37):
Yeah you did, so you can't.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
You can't.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
I mean, you don't have to pay twenty point five million.
You know, who's kidding who? You know? I mean, you
don't need to volleyball and Beth took over and I
hired her. You know, you have twelve scholarships.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
We had three.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
I mean, you can't do that. Twelve is the minimum,
not the maximum, so whatever it is. But anyway, I
got off on that. But I think there's a combination
of both. But the nil thing, if there's any way
they can make it like the pros, that would be
the deal because there'd be contracts. The portal is just
(14:16):
painful to Utah. Yes, I better say, yes, the players
need to have more freedom because the coaches do, and
the coaches leave, you should be able to leave. Yeah,
but there's got to be some semblance of contracts and
just like the pros, you come and go. I don't
know who does that in pro sports.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Yeah no, And look, my viewpoint on that is very
well documented on this show for five years because I
didn't think it was hard to see what was happening.
As I continue to say, I don't abandon file this
lawsuit in two thousand and eight. You had seventeen years
to at least prepare for this, and most, if not all,
of the issues that people continue to bring the forefront
(14:57):
would be solved by just ripping the band aid off
and saying, okay, it's and look, they're very smart attorneys
and lawyers. They would love to be involved here, Jeffrey
Kessler and such. You know, he takes the players, the
players unionize. You finally have a governing body that's in
charge of the sport with a commissioner, and then the
players and the quote unquote owners governing body, they collectively
(15:20):
bargain and they come to an agreement that includes a
salary cap. It includes the ability to sign contracts for
two to three years, if not more. And oh, by
the way, if you're a first round pick, you go,
we've got your back. You don't have to stay here,
but you don't. You can't go anywhere else for a
couple of years, and then all of the nil you know,
essentially the ambiguity around the space would be it would
(15:42):
be done away with because you would have legal documents
in place that you have to sign, and most everything
would be solved by moving to a pro model. And
I feel like the only people that it pushed back
against that still believe somehow in amateurism, which has been.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
Dead for five years. It's interesting. I agree with you,
no question. Uh it's interesting. There was this score act.
I'm sure you read up on it, and they were
kind of make a little progress. Well, the professional leagues
didn't like it. That's an interesting thing.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Yeah, you know.
Speaker 3 (16:13):
And why the other thing I can't can't understand is
why it's such a dirty word to say their employees.
We have student workers on campus, so these are athletes
student workers. Because people hate for me to talk about
the academic side of it. I know everybody falls asleep,
but if that's not a component of it, I wouldn't
(16:33):
buy a ticket in a million years. Yeah, I was
a tough I think a lot of people put my
name on that. You put my name on that jersey,
you better be a student. And I don't want to
hear about uh, well they have fresh air classes, and
whose fault is that you get a bad degree from university?
It is it the athletic department's fault, right. I took
easy classes when I had the opportunity, so we.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
All knew its classes. I don't have the answers to
the test of the frat house. Everybody did that.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Enough of that, but I don't want to have any
be talking about fresh air degrees and all this stuff.
We'll talk to the faculty and figure out one out.
You know, they don't want to give it a grade whatever,
and enough of that. But you know, I do think
that the long run, we all know what we want.
Why can't they be employees and let's just try to
get there, you know, somehow, and not count on the
(17:20):
n shiate it. We got to figure it out, and everybody,
it's kind of funny. Many things aren't as complicated as
we make them. So we all agree, well, how do
we can get there? Let's not spend our time on
what we don't agree on unless other people don't agree
with us, And how could they disagree with us? Of
course too if it's a two zero vote, and how
could they do that? But everybody talk to knows they
(17:42):
want some semblance of order and they want the kids
to get paid. They know that, and we all know
the coaches and their buyouts are out of control. But
that there may not be a solution to that.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
I don't think there is a solution to that at
this point, because you know, the market tells us what
the prices are, and you have to say competitive in that,
but you know your reference to score act. The problem
with relying on Congress right now is we have two
major political parties that just hate each other, so they're
never going to get the votes they need to pass
one or the other. Like the Republicans brought one of
(18:16):
the floor and the Democrats were giving them the double bird.
That didn't pass. Then the Democrats brought theirs to the floor,
and the Republicans are like, no, I don't think we
can rely on Congress. I don't think we can rely
on the NCAA. I think this has to be a
completely separate thing where football removes itself from the NC
double A. And there are a lot of complications there
(18:37):
as far as how it would work, but most of
the problems that are plaguing in the sport would be
solved by that model. When you say, I don't know
why people are so scared of calling them employees, the
only thing I can think of is the last group
of college football fans that still hold on to this
idea of amateurism. And they don't like the NFL because
(18:58):
of the commercialism and because of how much money he
is in the sport. They don't like the NBA because
employees don't show up for work because they get guaranteed contracts,
and college football, in their minds, might be the last
bastion of like this is a pure thing I can watch.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
I love sports.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
I just want to watch something pure yea, even though
it hasn't been pure for a long time.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
Yeah, I mean the pure thing is one other thing.
But the other element is is you go to watch
your good old university team play. They're they're not better
in pro teams, so you're not watching it really for
the overall skill. You're watching it because it's my community
it's my school. There's an emotional attachment, and you know
if the emotional attachment, like you hear a lot of things. Now, well,
(19:39):
I don't even know who the quarterback is anymore. I
saw them the other day or I met his parents
at a game, but now they're gone. So you need
to be able to have athletes get paid. You need
to see as there's a way to legitimately ethically have
people stay a little while. Then the fans will get
adjusted to them getting paid. Don't see, they're good old guys,
(20:01):
and don't see they got a U graduate degree or
graduates from you, and and that kind of just a
little bit of warm and fuzzy. But if you don't
see the same guys, you know you're going to start
to lose it because it's not your team anymore.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
And and so.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
I just I just feel it can it can do well.
I think the youths can and can do well. We're
never going to have as much money as Ohio State.
And you know, I talked to the ADG at Ohio
State years ago and we'd say, hey, we're just gonna
beat you because we have better coaches and a better
ad Right, That's how we're going to beat. But you know,
Ohio State from one to understand pretty clearly from one
(20:39):
of the coaches there that's not in a major sport,
they're kind of shifting down their expenses on those other sports.
They're not getting rid of them, but they're they're level
on them, you know, like one fully funded, pretty good
funded and maybe not as well and almost like a
club sport, you know. And maybe that's what do But
when you say, Ohio, that's twenty seven million, you do
(21:01):
kind of shake your head. You realize there's a there's
an expense problem too, you know, and it's not like
you can cut your way out of it. But the
problem is if anybody walked into any athletic department in
the country, they'd say, now, why we spend the money
on that?
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Right now?
Speaker 3 (21:19):
We got a fourth string defensive lineman huh yeah, you know,
and he's making forty five thousand dollars a year with
a scholarship. Please, I don't want to get phone calls
from some of the student athletes are just trying to
think why they don't. And then you look at the
you look at that player and say, well, those are
the guys that love the university. Yeah, you forget that.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
You know they all of a sudden know that they're
a student athlete after the sophomore year, right, and all
of a sudden, you know you've seen those guys come back.
And that's a joy for me because I get to
enjoy that, because that's nobody gets to do that but me,
or not too many people.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
Well, you bring up an interesting point about the revenue
generating sports, or some would call them the Olympic sports,
and what are the future of those? I mean because
you reference somebody coming into an athletic department and looking
at the expenses excuse me, and the profit and loss
statement and saying, well, wait a second soccer lost how
much money last year? Or wait, track and field, like
(22:18):
they'll go over all the sports that are not generating
any revenue yet have expenses, and now that private equity
is involved, the fear has to be Look, these are
New York private equity sharks.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
These are finance guys.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Okay, they're not on their long island yachts wondering about
the sanctity of Utah softball or if the muss is
going to have a great experience.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
They don't give a rip.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
So the fear I think for some is that they
will show up here and asked to see and they
probably already looked at the books. I would imagine you
don't make a deal until you actually understand what you're doing.
But is there danger that private equity will say, Okay,
we only want to be in business with your sports
that are actually making revenue.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Now.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
The one caveat there is that in this new Utah
Brand Entertainment LLC, it is football, basketball, and gymnastics.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
None of the other sports are included.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
So part of that leads me to believe that maybe
they will be supported because they're not involved in this LLC.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
I don't know how it's gonna play out.
Speaker 3 (23:15):
Yeah, yeah, I mean it seems like from what I'm reading,
which I hope is the truth, that the operations and
how you spend your money on the different sports are
not going to be controlled by this group. Right. If
that's the case, that's a big relief, you know, because
you just don't want that happening to you.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
I mean, because people recommend who your coaches and all
these people.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
And that's why I never did with search firms or
kept it close to the vest, because I don't want
somebody to tell me who to hire and the person's
no good and then my butt's and a slinger. You
never used a search firm. I used the one guy
that would find out what they're making, who their agent was,
if they were bs, and me if they're really interested
or not. I didn't want that person to give me
(23:58):
a stable of people, but handle all the logistical work,
you know, all the research and all that. Because I've
seen an ad search and it they got their stable,
you know. I know that because I was in the
stable for a while, and they try to sell their
guys and they get paid for that.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
So I was really.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
Careful to not have people that you know, I could
take names from people this or that, but I wouldn't
want them to sell me on somebody. And I think
search firms have that tendency. You get a hell of
a track record for not using a search firm. With
all your high I had a guy helping me still, yeah,
but I mean your higher I could take. I could
(24:36):
take other ads when we used when they used to talk,
because we always talked, and you know who you're looking at,
who you doing. That used to be the fun thing
about it and not that yay me. But I just
I just didn't want to do it because I didn't
want somebody going to the presence and oh the search
firm really likes this guy. And I'm rolling my eyes, going, oh, President,
(24:57):
please please. I know we're paying these guys on hundred
thousand dollars, you know. But the guy I had and
he'll remain nameless, was really good. He found out what
everybody was making, all the arrangements. It was kind of
the same because I didn't have to do any of
the work I didn't like to do. I said to
walk in and with the president talk to the coach.
(25:17):
Yeah you know, yeah, that's great.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Yeah, and you can do that. Then now you're hiring
people from whatever you know, right, never meeting them for sure.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
One more thing for this segment and then we'll catch
your break and do some stuff coming up on the
other side. Part of the unique nature of this deal
the Utah has with oaktro now, which is the first
of its kind, is the ability of certain people in
our community that have some money to become shareholders and
(25:47):
buy in as partners, which is unique compared to the
way it is for most schools, namely a BYU where
you donate money.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Right and BYU and Notre Dame.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
Religious institutions will always kind of have this advantage because
a lot of their donors believe they're not just donating
to the athletic department, but they're helping to further the
message of the faith system that they exist. So it's like, oh, wait,
this fifty million dollars will not only help your football program,
but will help our religion across the world.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
Boom, where do I donate?
Speaker 1 (26:17):
So when it comes to this dynamic, Utahs now offer
the ability for people to partner with them instead of
just donate to the school.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
How do you think this is going to work?
Speaker 3 (26:26):
Well, they got to see a profit for them, right,
I mean I think there's people out there, and we
talked off are. Yeah, there's people that are wealthy enough
to invest, but they're not going to invest in unless
they don't think there's going to be a profit.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Right.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
I have a great graspity obvious, don't I? You sure, dude,
Sure you invest and you expect to make money. Yeah,
that's I didn't realize.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
I knew that.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
But I mean a lot of this will be contingent
upon whether or not they can find those depocketed people.
Because the five hundred million dollar number that's been reported
is not a check from the pe firm. It's a
combination of whatever money that they're going to bring to
the table to partner with UTA Athletics, and then whatever
else is out there.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
In the community. It's a combination of two.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
Yeah, I know you want to break but at this time,
the first hurdle, you're there. You did the best thing
you can from the first hurdle. Then you got to
figure out some other stuff. But you know, the sky's
not falling, sure because you hopefully have that twenty and
a half million, and there's other things that can enter
into it. But I just don't know if there's going
to be a you know, a ten million dollar quarterback
(27:32):
unless they're cheating under the present rules. Now I roll
my eyes because I'm not naive enough to know that's
not happening, right, Okay, Okay, Well, and we'll get in.
Nobody in Utah would cheat. Never, okay never, None of
the schools would And so we're fine. Everything's above board,
all everything, everything. Yeah, we'll get into some more of
this coming up.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
One of the other you know, one of the other
benefits BYU has when it comes to nil Is branding
because a lot of their donors like cookie companies and such,
and that's a way to kind of circumvent some of
this stuff to say, all right, now, this quarterback loves
crumble cookies.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Here's five million dollars. Does you tah have an answer
to that?
Speaker 1 (28:09):
All right, We've got doctor Chris Hill live in studio
for another segment before we move over to our friends at.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Handy and Handy for some sports court.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
It is an interesting day in the world of sports
with Sharon Moore, the former head coach of the Michigan Wolverines,
currently sitting in a jail cell. The NASCAR versus Michael
Jordan lawsuit has been settled, So some interesting stuff. All right,
doctor Hill, good to see you, a little Willie. That's
got to put you in a good that's nice. I'm
a good mood anyway, but yeah, okay, helps he helps you.
(28:38):
Music puts me in a good mood.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
That it does. Always been a thing for me.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
But you know, we were talking last segment, a really
interesting shift of philosophy down in Provo. And I never
thought Klanie was leaving. I just didn't you know it
just feels like such a fit. I think people, certainly
people from a national perspective, don't fully understand how you
that experiences down there and now hard it is to
(29:03):
get a coach that matches their criteria, and also a
coach that doesn't move down there and look around and
go like what have I gotten myself into? Like cultural
fits for BYU, it's different than maybe any other school
in the entire country. But when I heard it was
Penn State, I went, okay, Like, that's got to be
a job that gets his attention, Colonie's attention obviously. You
know Colonie, Well, I did a coach a show with
(29:25):
him when he was up here for years.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
I cheer for him.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
I'm glad that it ended with a healthy raise and extension.
According to reports, he's now the second highest paid coach
in the Big Twelve to Dion, and he's going to
make nine point five million PERU.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
It's a shift in philosophy, is there?
Speaker 1 (29:40):
Basketball coach is one of the highest paid coaches in
the Big twelve as well? Are you surprised to see
them kind of change their ways?
Speaker 3 (29:46):
Well, you know, I had a really nice relationship with
Tom Homo, and we would talk off and on and
I could see from just little things he said. And
then when we played golf when he retired, I took
him out and I'm allows a golfer soda. I don'
want anybody listen to this. Still a good offer I play,
but I think, but I'm proud of it. And so
you know, you know he was there when they did
(30:07):
the young thing, and he says, you know, I just think,
as long as we don't hurt the mission, as long
as we're not seen as unethical, why not win?
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Right?
Speaker 3 (30:20):
So I mean winning solves a lot of things, So
I think, and you've gotten these major contributors involved that
have influence on the LEDs church, And why do you
want to turn that person saying no, I don't want
you to give money to help the university or help
the athletic program. So I think it's a slowly going
there as long as their mission values all that stuff
(30:43):
doesn't alter and they're not seen as a cheating university,
because that would be awful for right, right, awful. But
if it's seen that hey, we're just getting better, we're
in the game, they might say, hey, you're more modern,
you're not living in the past, so you.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Know I can.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
I'm not I'm a little surprising numbers with that big,
but I'm not surprised they're changing because they almost have to,
just like the youths have to have been trying to
figure out which we hope this one thing is to
get them where they want to be.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
And I want to be clear, I'm not saying BYU
is doing anything illegal or untoward. I've actually feel like
I've been a voice that stands up for them when
it comes to them writing checks. It's very much allowed.
What they're doing is legal and also necessary. What confuses
me is the hang up from people that are involved
with BYU or the LDS Church about the messaging they
(31:32):
do not want to say out loud, like, no, we
are among the highest bidders. You're paying a basketball player
five million dollars for four months of basketball and guess
what high five good job, he's the best player in
the country. I just don't get the whole like fear
approach to not say, like, don't tell me I'm not
seeing what I'm seeing. Why why the fear of the
messaging to just acknowledge that, yes, we are among the
(31:53):
highest bidders with all you're now paying your football coach
more than the majority of the conference in your basketball
coach too, and you're about to get ten to fifteen
million dollars in your NIL coffer. And from my perspective,
that's all positive. But I don't feel like they want
to say it out loud.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
Yeah, if you want me to, you want me to
extrapolate and guess on this, I guess I would say
there's a lot of people that don't make a lot
of money that are BYU fans, just like at Utah,
And they may be sitting there, Wait a minute, Wait
a minute. I know my ticket prices are going up,
and I love by you since the beginning of time,
my grandpa, my dad, And all of a sudden they're saying, man,
(32:30):
that's a lot of money and I'm still contributing and
doing this and doing that.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
Yeah, that's a good point. I'm going to be lost.
Speaker 3 (32:37):
And maybe they're just afraid of the common man or woman.
And you know, the ones that sit in the north
end zone at Utah, you know they have.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
A lot of pride in that. But you hear it
a lot, yea.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
You know, there's spending that much money on an eighteen
year old kid and I got to do this and
they don't understand, and he's making that my mind. So
I can see that maybe being a little afraid of
the bigger majority. That's totally a guess. Yeah, the top
of my head. No, I think it's fair. I think
it's good perspective.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
And you know, you bring up another point that I
want to talk to you about, because there's a dynamic
of Utah's deal with O Trow that I'm undecided as
far as how it's going to play out, and ultimately
it's going to be a very vital piece of it.
And let me be very clear about this. I'm not
saying this is going to happen. I'm not guaranteeing this
is about to happen. I'm just utilizing my knowledge and
(33:29):
my experience with gentlemen who are in finance and private
equity and venture capitalists that all have one goal and
one goal only in that is what is my return
on my investment?
Speaker 2 (33:41):
And that's it.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
So if the exit plan in five to seven years
is actually the timeline, OTRO has done their calculations to
say how much can we make in five to seven years? Now,
there's a lot that is involved with that. It's a
very sneaky, smart, intelligent way to go about it, because
in that five to seven year period, a couple things happen.
Number one, that's when the Big twelve television deal is up,
(34:03):
so they'll be negotiating a new deal. I'm sure the
hope is Utah gets invited to the Big ten, or
we have moved into this professional model that you and
I have talked about, and therefore your return in five
to seven years could be through the roof. There's actually
part of me that wonders if Utah underestimated their own valuation.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
Here. Now, a lot of things have to fall into place.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
If you kind of do the math with the numbers,
Otro gets two seats on the board the five hundred
million dollars. If you kind of do the math, the
valuation for Utah Athletics is probably between one point two
and one point eight billion. And if they get the
Big ten invite, or if there's a pro model and
Utah is involved, that valuation.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
Is going to skyrocket and Ultro is going to make
a lot of money.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
But in the interim, my guess is, and I want
to be clear, it's my guess Utah season ticket holders
are going to get an email and then a coming
months where it's like, hey, we love you, go utes.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
Oh, by the way, thirty percent of charge.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
If you have a tailgate lot where you like to
go tailgate before the game, you'll get an email that says, hey,
we love you, please keep tail getting know, by the way,
it's an extra I don't know, ten grand or whatever.
There's going to be a big portion of our community
that isn't among the folks that were allowed to buy
into this as a partnership that will be asked to
shoulder the cost. How do you think they react?
Speaker 3 (35:16):
Yeah, well, if anybody's pricing, I've never met anybody in
my life to please charge me more, right, Okay, I
don't want to pay that for a sweater, so please
just up the cost. But I guess the beginning and
end for me right now is here's your option. You
got to go with your option, you know, and got
to figure how to make it work. Got to figure
out how to have the fans not feel gouged, you know.
(35:38):
So I don't you know, I know exactly what you're saying,
and I've heard that from everybody, and I have to
admit that would be something I would think of where
we're going to get the money in rest. There's big
time investors that can see themselves making money, not donors,
but investors. And there's people in town that would like
to invest in the University of Utah if they could
see a return. Yeah, you know, so you know I
(35:59):
don't want to have have doom and gloom. I think
we got a step in a direction where we can
get to twenty million at least in theory and go
from there. But you know, I'm just thinking in my
head right now, this is this ten second thing. So
what isn't when big equity firm go buy twenty schools, well,
(36:20):
just pick off twenty. It's a lot of money, so
their TV contracts. Okay, let's look at the top twenty
schools in the country. I'm just I just thought of this.
Top twenty schools in the country are bought and that
company owns them and they own all the television for
those twenty schools. Well, what's all the market? What's intriguing
(36:40):
about that? Never mind, I don't know anything about equity.
I'm just a labor in the vineyard. I got paid
twice a month.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
Well, no, I'm just kind of processing it because this
kind of underscores our point about regulation, Like you couldn't
do that in the pros.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
You're not allowed to You're allowed to buy one team.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
But is there anything in collegiate athletics and the landscape
they would like we'll use you know what, We'll use
Bane Capital, or we'll use black Rock. You know that.
I don't even know how much Blackrock has, the hundreds
and hundreds of billions of dollars I would imagine at.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
Their disposal under management.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
Is there anything that's stopping one of the massive private
equity or venture capitalist funds in our country from buying
the top forty teams in America and then starting their
own league, Like I don't know.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
Well, that's why it's in chaos right now.
Speaker 3 (37:30):
The people in charge of it is better start to
recognize what we have to do and we all I
get back to what we want to have football and
all these sports do well. You know, some of the
schools that don't have football still have women's softball. You know,
they figured out how to fund it and it's part
(37:50):
of a university or whatever. But we know where we
want to go if we don't act quickly, We're going
to get further and further behind. If the NCAA is
too relevant in their mind, then we're going to have
another lawsuits and go over again. So somehow they have
to reduce the chaos, and I still get back to
(38:12):
somehow some modification of the.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
Pro model that would be helpful.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
I'm looking this up right now as we're talking about
in real time. KKR, according to the intranet, is the
biggest private.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
Equity firm that exists.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
And if you click on their website, I wonder how
much money they have as far as at their disposal
to utilize. I don't think their website is actually going
to let you know, so I'll have to look at
like their filings to see Blackrock is third. If anybody
has a four oh one K, chances are you're invested
into Blackrock.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
So look, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
Again back to my knowledge of just how it works
in professional sports, you're just not allowed to buy more
than one team. Yeah, and I believe if you're a
private equi firm, you're not allowed to even be an
investor in more than one team, Like you can't invest
in the Suns and the Jazz, and you can't invest
in the Broncos and the bills.
Speaker 3 (39:10):
Oh wait, wait, wait a minute, Are you going to
beat me up for something that had just ten minutes
of an idea? No, I think I actually no, no't know,
you're already shooting holes in something. I just threw out
it away. Okay, here, just hear the numbers.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
So KKR, according to their latest filing, has one hundred
and seventeen point nine billion dollars as far as the
funds they've raised over the past five years. Eke eqt
excuse me, has a one hundred and thirteen point three
billion Blackstone as I referenced, ninety five point seven billion.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
So it's a lot of money.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
And at this point, I'm actually just pontificating about possibilities
based off of your thought about whether or not one
of these big dogs could say, hey, guess what, sec
you're now a property of KKR. Congratulations, we own every team.
I don't know how that would work.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
I actually have to go through the mechanics. No. I
actually I used to do this at work.
Speaker 3 (40:05):
I'd come up with ideas and then I did look
around the room and I said, you're just telling me
Dad really had a stupid.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
Idea, right, so could right now.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
No, I think it's intriguing because there has to be
that there may have to be a third party. And
Brian Rolap, friend of the show, who was Roger Goodell's
right hand man. He's now the CEO of the PGA Tour,
but at one point The Athletic had a report that
Brian Rolap was trying to gather funding and investments to
(40:36):
essentially start the pro model in college football and say,
I'm your commissioner. We now own the teams in the
SEC and the Big Ten. You're with us now, and
we create an AFC NFC picture And in that in
that hypothetical scenario, the hope obviously is Okay, it's not
just the SEC in the Big Ten. We want Utah,
we want by U, maybe Colorado, you know, like to forty.
(41:00):
You have twenty in each conference, and away we go.
You can break away from the NCAA, have a governing body,
let the players unionize collectively, bargain and come up with
a pro model that would really solve all.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
The things that are going on in college football right now.
Speaker 3 (41:14):
Well, maybe that's simple, you know, because sometimes, like I
said earlier, sometimes we you know, there's obvious answers, and
so we agree upon the big picture and maybe even
go step further. They'd be University of Utah connected, you know,
and maybe everybody else could go home. All the other
sports could go home where they were let and have
(41:37):
regional and all that stuff, and maybe just say to
the equity firm, hey, we got to get twenty million
back for the rest of the department. Yeah, yeah, that's
an expense. Yeah, I think you and I just solved
the problems. We should get a piece of equity in
this hypothetical idea. If it's like I said, I was
just paid twice a month, Sure didn't invest just.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
Keep my head down. I did, and you were damn
good at it. I mean, the proof is, the proof
is in the results. Let me ask you this. I
was so when I unpacked this story.
Speaker 1 (42:09):
I think it was Tuesday of this week after my show,
I got a text message from somebody who I'll just
say would know. And this goes back to the properties
that are involved with this new LLC Utah brand entertainment,
which are football, basketball, and gymnastics. And I sat on
the show that of course football drives most of the revenue.
(42:32):
Basketball is still profitable because of March Madness. According to
the Athletic there are zero women's basketball teams that are
revenue generators in the country because I thought maybe the
Caitlin Clark effect and the massive ratings, none of them
are making money, including South Carolina, including Yukon. But I
sat on the show and here Utah is unique because
the gymnastics team is revenue generating and I got a
(42:54):
text message after the show that said they're not. They
don't generate revenue. They generate revenue, but do they show
a profit?
Speaker 2 (43:00):
Do you not excuse me?
Speaker 3 (43:00):
They used to have said that, you know, they don't
shifteen twenty years ago. And they do a great job
of donors, sponsor every you know Greg Makon and knows
they sponsor every one of their players and everything. But
the expenses are so high. Tuition has gone up, salaries, benefits, travel,
you know, all that stuff. People don't realize what's into it.
And then they don't even cost out. It's part of
(43:23):
the trainer, part of that budget, you know, like they
would do it a business. Yeah, what's your office space
cost you?
Speaker 2 (43:29):
What's this? What's that? You know?
Speaker 3 (43:30):
So gymnastics is a great feel good people on campus,
love of people in community love it, and it's revenue generating,
which makes them a valuable sport more than financially than
the other sports.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
That they are losing everything. Yeah, yeah, and I did,
I did, I misspoke there.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
Of course they generate some revenue, but according to the
you know, the the profit and loss statement, the P
and L statement and the financials, the expenses supersede the
revenue and therefore they don't generate a profit.
Speaker 2 (43:59):
Is how I should have put that.
Speaker 3 (44:01):
When it comes to you to be surprised how many
basketball don't but keep going, it comes to what as far.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
As men's basketball programs, you should think. It's not as
much a couscous You think very because my understanding is
they all are profitable simply for one thing, and that's
March madness.
Speaker 2 (44:15):
How much money the term membrings in? Is that not
the case? I don't think so.
Speaker 3 (44:18):
Do you have any idea what it is here? I
did you know when chart Rick was here, we were
making a profit. Of course in every way. Final four
runs might help a little bit, you know, doubt well,
you take outside of Gonzaga in the West Coast Conference.
Speaker 1 (44:34):
Yeah, but he's making money, Yeah, yeah, let me ask
you this before I say you lose. Is somebody that
wants upon a time was in charge of the budgets
and how this works. Because we talked about this to
kind of start the conversation. What I've been told is
the initial cash infusion will be used to service debt
and then they're gonna move over to maybe some stadium
renovations with the Huntsman Center and rise secals I anticipate
(44:56):
as part of the renovations based off of what I'm
anticipating with you know, opt prices more like luxury suites,
maybe some branding opportunities, licensing opportunities, you can. You know,
they're gonna come up with creative ways, these private equity guys,
like you can put your name on a seat of
rice Cycles. Now it's just gonna cost you twenty grand
stuff like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, So how does that work?
(45:16):
Like when you analyze what the Huntsman Center needs, what
what the football stadium needs? Like when you're going through
that process, what does that look like?
Speaker 3 (45:23):
I benefited from this. We didn't known and operate the
the arena and rice Cycles. We paid a rental fee
and so we have if they did events at Rice
Cycle Stadium. We didn't make money, okay, but you know,
and that was the way it was and one of
the rubs I had. But but for me, they could
charge us whatever we wanted. Sometimes they could do you know.
(45:45):
So it was very scary. But at the same time,
if I had an extra nickel, would I spend that
on fixing the floor or getting another athlete?
Speaker 2 (45:51):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (45:53):
Pretty soon the floors would be ruined, right right, right right? Sorry,
So you know that's something that people didn't never understood
and how they would charge us, and that would cause
some tension on campus. Yeah, and that was a way
if they thought the way I did would be a
way of help supporting us without it having a red
flag attached to it.
Speaker 2 (46:12):
Huh.
Speaker 3 (46:12):
Give them a little rental fee and they don't have
to pay all the maintenance of all the electricity and stuff.
That's more detail than you would ever want.
Speaker 1 (46:19):
No, that's I didn't even know that. That's really interesting. Look,
we could there's so many layers to this stuff. We
could talk for another two hours, but I'm gonna sell
you lose so you can go get to the back nine.
Speaker 2 (46:27):
Okay, that's tomorrow, eighteen tomorrow. I love it. Yeah yeah, yeah,
no kid in the rank. Advantage of it. Great to see. Okay,
every buddy, thanks all right, Doctor Chris Hill.
Speaker 1 (46:35):
I want to remind you that ESPN seven hundred and
the Rocky Mountain Chevy Dealers and buy you to help
those at the road home this holiday season with needed blankets, coats, shoes,
hats and gloves. Drop off donations at any Rocky Mountain
Chevy dealer
One of my favorite guests live in studio for an
entire hour. Former athletic director of the University of Utah
and a good friend of the show, Doctor Chris Hill,
is live on a wed or excuse me on a Thursday.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Happy Thursday, sir, how are you?
Speaker 3 (00:12):
I'm doing great. I mean you'll be jealous. But I
walk nine today, walk nine yesterday.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
I was going to ask you, like, you know, with
the with the weather being what it is, I would
imagine there's an opportunity to swing a club, I'm gonna
try to get out on Sunday.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Well, you know, for me, I this time of year
like cross country schime. I like it a lot, some
peaceful yeah, and usually when there's not snow on the ground,
it's cold. Kathy and I will sometimes go to country
club walk to back nine for our exercise beautiful. So
I went up yesterday and I said, wait a minute,
why I'll just bring some clubs to me while I'm walking.
Love it, And so you know today I don't you know,
(00:45):
we need snow. Yeah, But at the same time, if
if you don't snow to listens, wind about not have snow,
go do something fun.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Well, I'm one and I know this isn't necessarily a
popular take, and I know you're gonna laugh at me.
But as I get older, okay, I am lesson inclined
to I said this to a friend the other day.
I could live the rest of my life and not
see a snowflake and be fine.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
I don't give a rip.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
I don't want it, but I know there are a
lot of people around here that love.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
It, so hopefully we get it at some point. Yeah,
the cold's not an enemy for me. Uh you know, well,
we grew up in the Northeast. The winter there is different, yes,
so for me outside and it's for thirty five degrees
here and you have a sweater on.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Yeah, no, for sure, freak out. No, for sure.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
Like I always tell people that complain about the winter here,
Like you know, go to Chicago in February, go to
New York and jan You're like your breath stops inside
of your chest. It's a different thing, that moist cold. Yea,
that moist cold. So it's not an enemy for me. Well,
it's great to see you as always. It's a great
week to have you in And you know, I understand
based off of your relationships and the nature of who
(01:45):
you are, You've got to be careful about certain things.
So as I always say, just tap out of any
answer you want to give me, or handle it any
way you want to. And look, I have a lot
of well family members, namely my father and brother that
are in private equity. Of my twelve best high school friends,
I think seven of them are finance guys. So I
feel like I've been drinking through a water hose to
(02:07):
get an MBA in finance over the past seventy two hours.
But the University of Utah this week it was announced
that they have struck a deal with Outro Capital to
infuse the program and potentially institution with some immedia cash
and we'll see what they do with it. Let me
just ask you your instant reaction to this when you
heard the news.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
Well, I think people thought this guy's falling. And when
you say I don't want to pick on your family
members or your friends, when you soon as just say
venture capital or a go oh my god, there are sharks.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
They're going to cut everybody. I'm gonna be dead. It's
they're going to pillage and plunder.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Yeah, but you have to take a look and say,
what what are the options University Utah has and you know,
borrowing money or finding billionaires or trying something innovative. I mean,
it's an emergency business.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
You know.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
They got to come up with a minimum the twenty
millionaire nuts on top of the regular budget, you know,
so it's not all of a sudden and it's got
to be every year, right, So it's not like somebody
gives you five one year and then not the next.
So this seems like the best option to start getting
money early on. You know, there is no five year
plan anymore.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
One of the best articles I ever read was from
the Harvard Business Review that said the art of muddling
through The story was you have your five year plan
because that was real popular years and year. But if
your five year plan looks the same in five years,
you didn't react to the environment, and right now people aren't.
You don't read that about five year plan. You know
what you want to be and it's pretty simple. In athletics,
(03:33):
just win baby and be in a big conference. And
if there's a reduction of a number of football teams,
you better be in it.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
I mean, you know what that is.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
And so you got to live through today and tomorrow,
in the next year or two, and when the Texas
Tech thing, you know, that just scares everybody. But if
they get some kind of way of putting a cap
on the salaries and if they pay the people, it's
like the good old ways under the table and we
won't have to worry about it.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
You just don't get cont TEP stuff. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well a lot of layers to this. And you reference
Texas Tech, you know, we'll bring BYU into the equation here,
because if you're Taylor Randall, if you're Mark Harlan, if
you're among the leaders up there, your task is you
have to find a way to keep up with SEC
(04:22):
and big ten schools that have bigger TV distributions per membership.
But then you have to look in your own backyard
and say, well, wait a second. It's clear that BYU's
financial model is working and has worked now for three
four years. The stories about Cody Campbell and oil money
for Texas Tech are well documented. Utah had to find
their Cody Campbell, They had to find their cookie bro
(04:43):
the cookie money the BYU has. Utah had to find
their answer to that. So you're keeping up with the
two conferences that have better TV deals than you do.
But you're also keeping up with the school in your
backyard and then the school in Texas that has a
tremendous amount of resources, and by all reports, the two
schools with the biggest deepest pockets in the big twelve
R BUYU in Texas Tech. They just played for the
(05:05):
conference championship. Oh yeah, so this had to be Utah's
answer to that, right well, and I don't know if
they can get to that answer. The answer to me
is that plus also having some kind of if this
twenty point five million is real, then they can only
pay their players directly twenty five million, then they have
these other nil things which might be corrupt or whatever.
(05:25):
You know, as we were talking off air, The bottom
line is why can't we take some part of the
NFL model?
Speaker 3 (05:30):
I mean, I'm a big believer. Okay, this is what
we got to do. So every day we've got to
wake up and figure that out. Yeah, you know, and
not be afraid of it. But you know, Texas Tech
and b why you can buy players? Now, I understand
that may not be just the same way.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
You know that.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
You can't if you want to give somebody seven million dollars. Fine,
but then you got thirteen million left, right, I mean,
you know, and so I don't want to be naive
by any way, but you know, schools have always had
more money than Utah, and we've been able to compete.
But as long as there's somehow we can spend the
same amount of money out of your own university resources,
(06:08):
then you got a chance to have similar players. Not
the portal screws that all up. But you know, college
football is chaotic, yea, I mean it just I just
I just laugh and think. You know, you've got you know,
four equations and you can't solve for it one time, right,
it doesn't work?
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Yeah, Well, you know, the reports are that the athletic
department is in a tremendous amount of debt.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Now it does.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
That's not a thing that is unique to Utah. It's
actually pretty common across the landscape of even some of
the biggest athletic departments in America. Ohio State reported a
thirty seven million dollar debt last year after making about
two hundred and sixty million. Yeah, the Utah numbers is
their revenue, according to what you can just find online,
is they made one hundred nine million dollars last year,
(06:53):
but their expenses were one hundred and twenty five You
ran these departments. To me, it seems like college athletics
does not have a revenue generating problem and has a
spending problem.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Well yeah, what I've always said is is we're.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
A business on the revenue side and a charity on
the other side. Oh okay, okay, you got it. And
so you and you do things that aren't logical, you know.
I mean, if if the late Larry Miller didn't want
to pay his coach, he couldn't get fired. You know,
Larry's not could get fired, right, Yeah, yeah, I mean,
but now you've got people in charge, and all the
(07:28):
coach has to do is kind of wink at some
boosters and say, I don't know if you know they're
paying me a nuch. You know, Goad, I have a
story for you. One of the ads anew years ago,
he was I won't tell the school. He was a
big twelve school, lots of money, oil money. So he
calls me one day he says, well, this is a
definition of how this happens. One of our coaches was
(07:50):
going to take a big time job and he was
very successful, and I'll tell you off the air. And
so the President calls the a D the next day.
No problem, we're paying them a million dollars more. He's
gone from three to four. And the ad goes where
I'm going to get the money, And the President says, listen,
we got a three hundred billion dollar budget. Do you
(08:12):
think they're going to understand these oil guys and cowboys
that I lost the guy for a million dollars?
Speaker 2 (08:18):
Boom, it's done. It's play money.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
And then I'm then I'm looking at and saying, okay,
the buyouts, So okay, let's be honest. We all want
colony to get his money right.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Gotta bam, gotta bam, gotta pay m gotta bam. Eight
years later, how come here have such a big buyout? Gosh, daughter,
how did that happen? You know?
Speaker 3 (08:37):
But you're I walked a mile on those shoes about,
you know, trying to hold the line. And there is
no reward in this day and age for an athletic
director or a president to save money on paying somebody
pay him too much. You're in debt, Dad from Ohio State,
(08:57):
He's in debt. You know, as long as you win
foot or you have a good football coach and you
don't cause them to be gone. Yeah, you don't get
fired for that, right, I mean, you just don't. Ye know,
So what what's the difference whether you're paying them ten
or fourteen?
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (09:11):
To your point, the only difference is whether or not
it's affecting your bottom line at the end of the
fiscal year when you have this debt to service. Now,
the interesting thing is not all debt is created equal.
And I don't know what the details are of Utah's
debt or Colorado's debt which is twenty seven mil. Like,
if you have a debt that the interest rate is
three three to four percent, but you're utilizing your cash
(09:31):
flow to make ten percent on top of it, you're
actually coming out on top. But do you anticipate the
initial infusion of cash to simply go to service that
that's what most people believe is going to happen. They
have to get out from underneath this debt.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
I don't think that'll happen. I don't think they have
to if they're doing this. And you know, I'm not
as familiar with debt. We did it two years but
the university, you know, we paid it back, but it
wasn't like ridiculous five million. Yeah, but you know, I
think that if if the money that they're going to
get hopefully and I hope it works because I want
the uths to do well, yeah, you know, And so
(10:08):
if that money's not seen as being spent on acquiring players,
people are gonna say, what's going on?
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Yeah, where's that money going. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
If the players, which you know, it's good they're getting paid,
but if they're not getting money, and the roomor on
the street is we're not paying twenty million, we're not
doing this, people can't really question any discisions. Yeah, players
better have money.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
And the complicated part because you reference the twenty point
five million, and that's across P four, so that at
least is one thing that's regulated. So it's not like
Texas Tech has forty million to pay in Utah's twenty
point five. No, twenty point five is the number. And
by the way, that's for all student athletes. Most schools
allocate you know, probably sixteen to seventeen of that to
(10:49):
the football program thereabouts where the line of delineation comes
in on the other side of that, which is nil. Right,
what you can pay the players on top of the
twenty eight point five million that the school can pay them,
and the reports are that you know, we'll get to Klounie.
He said no to Penn State and it was rewarded handsomely.
(11:09):
According to reports, He's now the second highest paid coach
in the Big twelve to Dion Jay Hill gets a raised,
Aaron Rodger gets a raised, His coaches get raises. But
he he mandated that if he signed a new contract,
he needed between ten to fifteen million dollars of additional
NIL revenue based off of what they already had. That's
the number that I haven't seen. But if it's ten
(11:30):
to fifteen million dollars additionally to the nil prior to,
it's probably in the area of twenty twenty five mil.
Meaning this BYU as an institution can pay their athletes
twenty point five million dollars in salaries, and if the
numbers are correct, they also have we'll call it an
additional twenty million dollars to utilize for nil. That to me,
(11:52):
Doctor Hill is where and I don't know what Utah's
numbers are. That to me continues to be the big
question mark. Absolutely, can you TAH keep up that attendant
to space.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
Well, you know, and and in theory which I the
NCAA just keeps getting sued and that's what's going to
happen again and again and keep losing and keep losing,
you know, the over But you know, according to what
they're saying now is that nil money has to have
some legitimacy to it.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Yeah, you have to.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
So the BYU has fifteen million dollars, it's hard to
imagine that a quarterback can generate five million dollars when
marketing probably can't do that in the city. Okay, you know,
so that's the theory. Okay, And that's what I said earlier,
is that, well that's the theory. So though people will
stick to that, but the cheaters will figure out how
(12:42):
to cheat. But because the court of public opinion is
I'll just play the payer players, you know, and and
there there's no we'll get back to there's no the
expense side, you know, we always forget about that and
and I know, but it's so you can't say, as
an athletic director, we don't really need one hundred and
(13:04):
five guys, you know, we really don't. Besides that, we've
got the portal and if we have any weaknesses, we'll
just go get those guys, you know.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
And that's like you can't say that poor.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
Little kids, you're taking money away from you're not supporting
the coach. But everybody knows that, you know. But those
are tough things for people to do, especially it gets
back to the whole You got to win a football
that's the deal, and that's the prestige. And if you
seem to be doing anything to unilatterly disarm you're dead.
(13:37):
Yeah you did, so you can't.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
You can't.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
I mean, you don't have to pay twenty point five million.
You know, who's kidding who? You know? I mean, you
don't need to volleyball and Beth took over and I
hired her. You know, you have twelve scholarships.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
We had three.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
I mean, you can't do that. Twelve is the minimum,
not the maximum, so whatever it is. But anyway, I
got off on that. But I think there's a combination
of both. But the nil thing, if there's any way
they can make it like the pros, that would be
the deal because there'd be contracts. The portal is just
(14:16):
painful to Utah. Yes, I better say, yes, the players
need to have more freedom because the coaches do, and
the coaches leave, you should be able to leave. Yeah,
but there's got to be some semblance of contracts and
just like the pros, you come and go. I don't
know who does that in pro sports.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Yeah no, And look, my viewpoint on that is very
well documented on this show for five years because I
didn't think it was hard to see what was happening.
As I continue to say, I don't abandon file this
lawsuit in two thousand and eight. You had seventeen years
to at least prepare for this, and most, if not all,
of the issues that people continue to bring the forefront
(14:57):
would be solved by just ripping the band aid off
and saying, okay, it's and look, they're very smart attorneys
and lawyers. They would love to be involved here, Jeffrey
Kessler and such. You know, he takes the players, the
players unionize. You finally have a governing body that's in
charge of the sport with a commissioner, and then the
players and the quote unquote owners governing body, they collectively
(15:20):
bargain and they come to an agreement that includes a
salary cap. It includes the ability to sign contracts for
two to three years, if not more. And oh, by
the way, if you're a first round pick, you go,
we've got your back. You don't have to stay here,
but you don't. You can't go anywhere else for a
couple of years, and then all of the nil you know,
essentially the ambiguity around the space would be it would
(15:42):
be done away with because you would have legal documents
in place that you have to sign, and most everything
would be solved by moving to a pro model. And
I feel like the only people that it pushed back
against that still believe somehow in amateurism, which has been.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
Dead for five years. It's interesting. I agree with you,
no question. Uh it's interesting. There was this score act.
I'm sure you read up on it, and they were
kind of make a little progress. Well, the professional leagues
didn't like it. That's an interesting thing.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Yeah, you know.
Speaker 3 (16:13):
And why the other thing I can't can't understand is
why it's such a dirty word to say their employees.
We have student workers on campus, so these are athletes
student workers. Because people hate for me to talk about
the academic side of it. I know everybody falls asleep,
but if that's not a component of it, I wouldn't
(16:33):
buy a ticket in a million years. Yeah, I was
a tough I think a lot of people put my
name on that. You put my name on that jersey,
you better be a student. And I don't want to
hear about uh, well they have fresh air classes, and
whose fault is that you get a bad degree from university?
It is it the athletic department's fault, right. I took
easy classes when I had the opportunity, so we.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
All knew its classes. I don't have the answers to
the test of the frat house. Everybody did that.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Enough of that, but I don't want to have any
be talking about fresh air degrees and all this stuff.
We'll talk to the faculty and figure out one out.
You know, they don't want to give it a grade whatever,
and enough of that. But you know, I do think
that the long run, we all know what we want.
Why can't they be employees and let's just try to
get there, you know, somehow, and not count on the
(17:20):
n shiate it. We got to figure it out, and everybody,
it's kind of funny. Many things aren't as complicated as
we make them. So we all agree, well, how do
we can get there? Let's not spend our time on
what we don't agree on unless other people don't agree
with us, And how could they disagree with us? Of
course too if it's a two zero vote, and how
could they do that? But everybody talk to knows they
(17:42):
want some semblance of order and they want the kids
to get paid. They know that, and we all know
the coaches and their buyouts are out of control. But
that there may not be a solution to that.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
I don't think there is a solution to that at
this point, because you know, the market tells us what
the prices are, and you have to say competitive in that,
but you know your reference to score act. The problem
with relying on Congress right now is we have two
major political parties that just hate each other, so they're
never going to get the votes they need to pass
one or the other. Like the Republicans brought one of
(18:16):
the floor and the Democrats were giving them the double bird.
That didn't pass. Then the Democrats brought theirs to the floor,
and the Republicans are like, no, I don't think we
can rely on Congress. I don't think we can rely
on the NCAA. I think this has to be a
completely separate thing where football removes itself from the NC
double A. And there are a lot of complications there
(18:37):
as far as how it would work, but most of
the problems that are plaguing in the sport would be
solved by that model. When you say, I don't know
why people are so scared of calling them employees, the
only thing I can think of is the last group
of college football fans that still hold on to this
idea of amateurism. And they don't like the NFL because
(18:58):
of the commercialism and because of how much money he
is in the sport. They don't like the NBA because
employees don't show up for work because they get guaranteed contracts,
and college football, in their minds, might be the last
bastion of like this is a pure thing I can watch.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
I love sports.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
I just want to watch something pure yea, even though
it hasn't been pure for a long time.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
Yeah, I mean the pure thing is one other thing.
But the other element is is you go to watch
your good old university team play. They're they're not better
in pro teams, so you're not watching it really for
the overall skill. You're watching it because it's my community
it's my school. There's an emotional attachment, and you know
if the emotional attachment, like you hear a lot of things. Now, well,
(19:39):
I don't even know who the quarterback is anymore. I
saw them the other day or I met his parents
at a game, but now they're gone. So you need
to be able to have athletes get paid. You need
to see as there's a way to legitimately ethically have
people stay a little while. Then the fans will get
adjusted to them getting paid. Don't see, they're good old guys,
(20:01):
and don't see they got a U graduate degree or
graduates from you, and and that kind of just a
little bit of warm and fuzzy. But if you don't
see the same guys, you know you're going to start
to lose it because it's not your team anymore.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
And and so.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
I just I just feel it can it can do well.
I think the youths can and can do well. We're
never going to have as much money as Ohio State.
And you know, I talked to the ADG at Ohio
State years ago and we'd say, hey, we're just gonna
beat you because we have better coaches and a better
ad Right, That's how we're going to beat. But you know,
Ohio State from one to understand pretty clearly from one
(20:39):
of the coaches there that's not in a major sport,
they're kind of shifting down their expenses on those other sports.
They're not getting rid of them, but they're they're level
on them, you know, like one fully funded, pretty good
funded and maybe not as well and almost like a
club sport, you know. And maybe that's what do But
when you say, Ohio, that's twenty seven million, you do
(21:01):
kind of shake your head. You realize there's a there's
an expense problem too, you know, and it's not like
you can cut your way out of it. But the
problem is if anybody walked into any athletic department in
the country, they'd say, now, why we spend the money
on that?
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Right now?
Speaker 3 (21:19):
We got a fourth string defensive lineman huh yeah, you know,
and he's making forty five thousand dollars a year with
a scholarship. Please, I don't want to get phone calls
from some of the student athletes are just trying to
think why they don't. And then you look at the
you look at that player and say, well, those are
the guys that love the university. Yeah, you forget that.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
You know they all of a sudden know that they're
a student athlete after the sophomore year, right, and all
of a sudden, you know you've seen those guys come back.
And that's a joy for me because I get to
enjoy that, because that's nobody gets to do that but me,
or not too many people.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
Well, you bring up an interesting point about the revenue
generating sports, or some would call them the Olympic sports,
and what are the future of those? I mean because
you reference somebody coming into an athletic department and looking
at the expenses excuse me, and the profit and loss
statement and saying, well, wait a second soccer lost how
much money last year? Or wait, track and field, like
(22:18):
they'll go over all the sports that are not generating
any revenue yet have expenses, and now that private equity
is involved, the fear has to be Look, these are
New York private equity sharks.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
These are finance guys.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Okay, they're not on their long island yachts wondering about
the sanctity of Utah softball or if the muss is
going to have a great experience.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
They don't give a rip.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
So the fear I think for some is that they
will show up here and asked to see and they
probably already looked at the books. I would imagine you
don't make a deal until you actually understand what you're doing.
But is there danger that private equity will say, Okay,
we only want to be in business with your sports
that are actually making revenue.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Now.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
The one caveat there is that in this new Utah
Brand Entertainment LLC, it is football, basketball, and gymnastics.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
None of the other sports are included.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
So part of that leads me to believe that maybe
they will be supported because they're not involved in this LLC.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
I don't know how it's gonna play out.
Speaker 3 (23:15):
Yeah, yeah, I mean it seems like from what I'm reading,
which I hope is the truth, that the operations and
how you spend your money on the different sports are
not going to be controlled by this group. Right. If
that's the case, that's a big relief, you know, because
you just don't want that happening to you.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
I mean, because people recommend who your coaches and all
these people.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
And that's why I never did with search firms or
kept it close to the vest, because I don't want
somebody to tell me who to hire and the person's
no good and then my butt's and a slinger. You
never used a search firm. I used the one guy
that would find out what they're making, who their agent was,
if they were bs, and me if they're really interested
or not. I didn't want that person to give me
(23:58):
a stable of people, but handle all the logistical work,
you know, all the research and all that. Because I've
seen an ad search and it they got their stable,
you know. I know that because I was in the
stable for a while, and they try to sell their
guys and they get paid for that.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
So I was really.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
Careful to not have people that you know, I could
take names from people this or that, but I wouldn't
want them to sell me on somebody. And I think
search firms have that tendency. You get a hell of
a track record for not using a search firm. With
all your high I had a guy helping me still, yeah,
but I mean your higher I could take. I could
(24:36):
take other ads when we used when they used to talk,
because we always talked, and you know who you're looking at,
who you doing. That used to be the fun thing
about it and not that yay me. But I just
I just didn't want to do it because I didn't
want somebody going to the presence and oh the search
firm really likes this guy. And I'm rolling my eyes, going, oh, President,
(24:57):
please please. I know we're paying these guys on hundred
thousand dollars, you know. But the guy I had and
he'll remain nameless, was really good. He found out what
everybody was making, all the arrangements. It was kind of
the same because I didn't have to do any of
the work I didn't like to do. I said to
walk in and with the president talk to the coach.
(25:17):
Yeah you know, yeah, that's great.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Yeah, and you can do that. Then now you're hiring
people from whatever you know, right, never meeting them for sure.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
One more thing for this segment and then we'll catch
your break and do some stuff coming up on the
other side. Part of the unique nature of this deal
the Utah has with oaktro now, which is the first
of its kind, is the ability of certain people in
our community that have some money to become shareholders and
(25:47):
buy in as partners, which is unique compared to the
way it is for most schools, namely a BYU where
you donate money.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Right and BYU and Notre Dame.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
Religious institutions will always kind of have this advantage because
a lot of their donors believe they're not just donating
to the athletic department, but they're helping to further the
message of the faith system that they exist. So it's like, oh, wait,
this fifty million dollars will not only help your football program,
but will help our religion across the world.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
Boom, where do I donate?
Speaker 1 (26:17):
So when it comes to this dynamic, Utahs now offer
the ability for people to partner with them instead of
just donate to the school.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
How do you think this is going to work?
Speaker 3 (26:26):
Well, they got to see a profit for them, right,
I mean I think there's people out there, and we
talked off are. Yeah, there's people that are wealthy enough
to invest, but they're not going to invest in unless
they don't think there's going to be a profit.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Right.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
I have a great graspity obvious, don't I? You sure, dude,
Sure you invest and you expect to make money. Yeah,
that's I didn't realize.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
I knew that.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
But I mean a lot of this will be contingent
upon whether or not they can find those depocketed people.
Because the five hundred million dollar number that's been reported
is not a check from the pe firm. It's a
combination of whatever money that they're going to bring to
the table to partner with UTA Athletics, and then whatever
else is out there.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
In the community. It's a combination of two.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
Yeah, I know you want to break but at this time,
the first hurdle, you're there. You did the best thing
you can from the first hurdle. Then you got to
figure out some other stuff. But you know, the sky's
not falling, sure because you hopefully have that twenty and
a half million, and there's other things that can enter
into it. But I just don't know if there's going
to be a you know, a ten million dollar quarterback
(27:32):
unless they're cheating under the present rules. Now I roll
my eyes because I'm not naive enough to know that's
not happening, right, Okay, Okay, Well, and we'll get in.
Nobody in Utah would cheat. Never, okay never, None of
the schools would And so we're fine. Everything's above board,
all everything, everything. Yeah, we'll get into some more of
this coming up.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
One of the other you know, one of the other
benefits BYU has when it comes to nil Is branding
because a lot of their donors like cookie companies and such,
and that's a way to kind of circumvent some of
this stuff to say, all right, now, this quarterback loves
crumble cookies.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Here's five million dollars. Does you tah have an answer
to that?
Speaker 1 (28:09):
All right, We've got doctor Chris Hill live in studio
for another segment before we move over to our friends at.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Handy and Handy for some sports court.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
It is an interesting day in the world of sports
with Sharon Moore, the former head coach of the Michigan Wolverines,
currently sitting in a jail cell. The NASCAR versus Michael
Jordan lawsuit has been settled, So some interesting stuff. All right,
doctor Hill, good to see you, a little Willie. That's
got to put you in a good that's nice. I'm
a good mood anyway, but yeah, okay, helps he helps you.
(28:38):
Music puts me in a good mood.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
That it does. Always been a thing for me.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
But you know, we were talking last segment, a really
interesting shift of philosophy down in Provo. And I never
thought Klanie was leaving. I just didn't you know it
just feels like such a fit. I think people, certainly
people from a national perspective, don't fully understand how you
that experiences down there and now hard it is to
(29:03):
get a coach that matches their criteria, and also a
coach that doesn't move down there and look around and
go like what have I gotten myself into? Like cultural
fits for BYU, it's different than maybe any other school
in the entire country. But when I heard it was
Penn State, I went, okay, Like, that's got to be
a job that gets his attention, Colonie's attention obviously. You
know Colonie, Well, I did a coach a show with
(29:25):
him when he was up here for years.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
I cheer for him.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
I'm glad that it ended with a healthy raise and extension.
According to reports, he's now the second highest paid coach
in the Big Twelve to Dion, and he's going to
make nine point five million PERU.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
It's a shift in philosophy, is there?
Speaker 1 (29:40):
Basketball coach is one of the highest paid coaches in
the Big twelve as well? Are you surprised to see
them kind of change their ways?
Speaker 3 (29:46):
Well, you know, I had a really nice relationship with
Tom Homo, and we would talk off and on and
I could see from just little things he said. And
then when we played golf when he retired, I took
him out and I'm allows a golfer soda. I don'
want anybody listen to this. Still a good offer I play,
but I think, but I'm proud of it. And so
you know, you know he was there when they did
(30:07):
the young thing, and he says, you know, I just think,
as long as we don't hurt the mission, as long
as we're not seen as unethical, why not win?
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Right?
Speaker 3 (30:20):
So I mean winning solves a lot of things, So
I think, and you've gotten these major contributors involved that
have influence on the LEDs church, And why do you
want to turn that person saying no, I don't want
you to give money to help the university or help
the athletic program. So I think it's a slowly going
there as long as their mission values all that stuff
(30:43):
doesn't alter and they're not seen as a cheating university,
because that would be awful for right, right, awful. But
if it's seen that hey, we're just getting better, we're
in the game, they might say, hey, you're more modern,
you're not living in the past, so you.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Know I can.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
I'm not I'm a little surprising numbers with that big,
but I'm not surprised they're changing because they almost have to,
just like the youths have to have been trying to
figure out which we hope this one thing is to
get them where they want to be.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
And I want to be clear, I'm not saying BYU
is doing anything illegal or untoward. I've actually feel like
I've been a voice that stands up for them when
it comes to them writing checks. It's very much allowed.
What they're doing is legal and also necessary. What confuses
me is the hang up from people that are involved
with BYU or the LDS Church about the messaging they
(31:32):
do not want to say out loud, like, no, we
are among the highest bidders. You're paying a basketball player
five million dollars for four months of basketball and guess
what high five good job, he's the best player in
the country. I just don't get the whole like fear
approach to not say, like, don't tell me I'm not
seeing what I'm seeing. Why why the fear of the
messaging to just acknowledge that, yes, we are among the
(31:53):
highest bidders with all you're now paying your football coach
more than the majority of the conference in your basketball
coach too, and you're about to get ten to fifteen
million dollars in your NIL coffer. And from my perspective,
that's all positive. But I don't feel like they want
to say it out loud.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
Yeah, if you want me to, you want me to
extrapolate and guess on this, I guess I would say
there's a lot of people that don't make a lot
of money that are BYU fans, just like at Utah,
And they may be sitting there, Wait a minute, Wait
a minute. I know my ticket prices are going up,
and I love by you since the beginning of time,
my grandpa, my dad, And all of a sudden they're saying, man,
(32:30):
that's a lot of money and I'm still contributing and
doing this and doing that.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
Yeah, that's a good point. I'm going to be lost.
Speaker 3 (32:37):
And maybe they're just afraid of the common man or woman.
And you know, the ones that sit in the north
end zone at Utah, you know they have.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
A lot of pride in that. But you hear it
a lot, yea.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
You know, there's spending that much money on an eighteen
year old kid and I got to do this and
they don't understand, and he's making that my mind. So
I can see that maybe being a little afraid of
the bigger majority. That's totally a guess. Yeah, the top
of my head. No, I think it's fair. I think
it's good perspective.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
And you know, you bring up another point that I
want to talk to you about, because there's a dynamic
of Utah's deal with O Trow that I'm undecided as
far as how it's going to play out, and ultimately
it's going to be a very vital piece of it.
And let me be very clear about this. I'm not
saying this is going to happen. I'm not guaranteeing this
is about to happen. I'm just utilizing my knowledge and
(33:29):
my experience with gentlemen who are in finance and private
equity and venture capitalists that all have one goal and
one goal only in that is what is my return
on my investment?
Speaker 2 (33:41):
And that's it.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
So if the exit plan in five to seven years
is actually the timeline, OTRO has done their calculations to
say how much can we make in five to seven years? Now,
there's a lot that is involved with that. It's a
very sneaky, smart, intelligent way to go about it, because
in that five to seven year period, a couple things happen.
Number one, that's when the Big twelve television deal is up,
(34:03):
so they'll be negotiating a new deal. I'm sure the
hope is Utah gets invited to the Big ten, or
we have moved into this professional model that you and
I have talked about, and therefore your return in five
to seven years could be through the roof. There's actually
part of me that wonders if Utah underestimated their own valuation.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
Here. Now, a lot of things have to fall into place.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
If you kind of do the math with the numbers,
Otro gets two seats on the board the five hundred
million dollars. If you kind of do the math, the
valuation for Utah Athletics is probably between one point two
and one point eight billion. And if they get the
Big ten invite, or if there's a pro model and
Utah is involved, that valuation.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
Is going to skyrocket and Ultro is going to make
a lot of money.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
But in the interim, my guess is, and I want
to be clear, it's my guess Utah season ticket holders
are going to get an email and then a coming
months where it's like, hey, we love you, go utes.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
Oh, by the way, thirty percent of charge.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
If you have a tailgate lot where you like to
go tailgate before the game, you'll get an email that says, hey,
we love you, please keep tail getting know, by the way,
it's an extra I don't know, ten grand or whatever.
There's going to be a big portion of our community
that isn't among the folks that were allowed to buy
into this as a partnership that will be asked to
shoulder the cost. How do you think they react?
Speaker 3 (35:16):
Yeah, well, if anybody's pricing, I've never met anybody in
my life to please charge me more, right, Okay, I
don't want to pay that for a sweater, so please
just up the cost. But I guess the beginning and
end for me right now is here's your option. You
got to go with your option, you know, and got
to figure how to make it work. Got to figure
out how to have the fans not feel gouged, you know.
(35:38):
So I don't you know, I know exactly what you're saying,
and I've heard that from everybody, and I have to
admit that would be something I would think of where
we're going to get the money in rest. There's big
time investors that can see themselves making money, not donors,
but investors. And there's people in town that would like
to invest in the University of Utah if they could
see a return. Yeah, you know, so you know I
(35:59):
don't want to have have doom and gloom. I think
we got a step in a direction where we can
get to twenty million at least in theory and go
from there. But you know, I'm just thinking in my
head right now, this is this ten second thing. So
what isn't when big equity firm go buy twenty schools, well,
(36:20):
just pick off twenty. It's a lot of money, so
their TV contracts. Okay, let's look at the top twenty
schools in the country. I'm just I just thought of this.
Top twenty schools in the country are bought and that
company owns them and they own all the television for
those twenty schools. Well, what's all the market? What's intriguing
(36:40):
about that? Never mind, I don't know anything about equity.
I'm just a labor in the vineyard. I got paid
twice a month.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
Well, no, I'm just kind of processing it because this
kind of underscores our point about regulation, Like you couldn't
do that in the pros.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
You're not allowed to You're allowed to buy one team.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
But is there anything in collegiate athletics and the landscape
they would like we'll use you know what, We'll use
Bane Capital, or we'll use black Rock. You know that.
I don't even know how much Blackrock has, the hundreds
and hundreds of billions of dollars I would imagine at.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
Their disposal under management.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
Is there anything that's stopping one of the massive private
equity or venture capitalist funds in our country from buying
the top forty teams in America and then starting their
own league, Like I don't know.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
Well, that's why it's in chaos right now.
Speaker 3 (37:30):
The people in charge of it is better start to
recognize what we have to do and we all I
get back to what we want to have football and
all these sports do well. You know, some of the
schools that don't have football still have women's softball. You know,
they figured out how to fund it and it's part
(37:50):
of a university or whatever. But we know where we
want to go if we don't act quickly, We're going
to get further and further behind. If the NCAA is
too relevant in their mind, then we're going to have
another lawsuits and go over again. So somehow they have
to reduce the chaos, and I still get back to
(38:12):
somehow some modification of the.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
Pro model that would be helpful.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
I'm looking this up right now as we're talking about
in real time. KKR, according to the intranet, is the
biggest private.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
Equity firm that exists.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
And if you click on their website, I wonder how
much money they have as far as at their disposal
to utilize. I don't think their website is actually going
to let you know, so I'll have to look at
like their filings to see Blackrock is third. If anybody
has a four oh one K, chances are you're invested
into Blackrock.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
So look, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
Again back to my knowledge of just how it works
in professional sports, you're just not allowed to buy more
than one team. Yeah, and I believe if you're a
private equi firm, you're not allowed to even be an
investor in more than one team, Like you can't invest
in the Suns and the Jazz, and you can't invest
in the Broncos and the bills.
Speaker 3 (39:10):
Oh wait, wait, wait a minute, Are you going to
beat me up for something that had just ten minutes
of an idea? No, I think I actually no, no't know,
you're already shooting holes in something. I just threw out
it away. Okay, here, just hear the numbers.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
So KKR, according to their latest filing, has one hundred
and seventeen point nine billion dollars as far as the
funds they've raised over the past five years. Eke eqt
excuse me, has a one hundred and thirteen point three
billion Blackstone as I referenced, ninety five point seven billion.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
So it's a lot of money.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
And at this point, I'm actually just pontificating about possibilities
based off of your thought about whether or not one
of these big dogs could say, hey, guess what, sec
you're now a property of KKR. Congratulations, we own every team.
I don't know how that would work.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
I actually have to go through the mechanics. No. I
actually I used to do this at work.
Speaker 3 (40:05):
I'd come up with ideas and then I did look
around the room and I said, you're just telling me
Dad really had a stupid.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
Idea, right, so could right now.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
No, I think it's intriguing because there has to be
that there may have to be a third party. And
Brian Rolap, friend of the show, who was Roger Goodell's
right hand man. He's now the CEO of the PGA Tour,
but at one point The Athletic had a report that
Brian Rolap was trying to gather funding and investments to
(40:36):
essentially start the pro model in college football and say,
I'm your commissioner. We now own the teams in the
SEC and the Big Ten. You're with us now, and
we create an AFC NFC picture And in that in
that hypothetical scenario, the hope obviously is Okay, it's not
just the SEC in the Big Ten. We want Utah,
we want by U, maybe Colorado, you know, like to forty.
(41:00):
You have twenty in each conference, and away we go.
You can break away from the NCAA, have a governing body,
let the players unionize collectively, bargain and come up with
a pro model that would really solve all.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
The things that are going on in college football right now.
Speaker 3 (41:14):
Well, maybe that's simple, you know, because sometimes, like I
said earlier, sometimes we you know, there's obvious answers, and
so we agree upon the big picture and maybe even
go step further. They'd be University of Utah connected, you know,
and maybe everybody else could go home. All the other
sports could go home where they were let and have
(41:37):
regional and all that stuff, and maybe just say to
the equity firm, hey, we got to get twenty million
back for the rest of the department. Yeah, yeah, that's
an expense. Yeah, I think you and I just solved
the problems. We should get a piece of equity in
this hypothetical idea. If it's like I said, I was
just paid twice a month, Sure didn't invest just.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
Keep my head down. I did, and you were damn
good at it. I mean, the proof is, the proof
is in the results. Let me ask you this. I
was so when I unpacked this story.
Speaker 1 (42:09):
I think it was Tuesday of this week after my show,
I got a text message from somebody who I'll just
say would know. And this goes back to the properties
that are involved with this new LLC Utah brand entertainment,
which are football, basketball, and gymnastics. And I sat on
the show that of course football drives most of the revenue.
(42:32):
Basketball is still profitable because of March Madness. According to
the Athletic there are zero women's basketball teams that are
revenue generators in the country because I thought maybe the
Caitlin Clark effect and the massive ratings, none of them
are making money, including South Carolina, including Yukon. But I
sat on the show and here Utah is unique because
the gymnastics team is revenue generating and I got a
(42:54):
text message after the show that said they're not. They
don't generate revenue. They generate revenue, but do they show
a profit?
Speaker 2 (43:00):
Do you not excuse me?
Speaker 3 (43:00):
They used to have said that, you know, they don't
shifteen twenty years ago. And they do a great job
of donors, sponsor every you know Greg Makon and knows
they sponsor every one of their players and everything. But
the expenses are so high. Tuition has gone up, salaries, benefits, travel,
you know, all that stuff. People don't realize what's into it.
And then they don't even cost out. It's part of
(43:23):
the trainer, part of that budget, you know, like they
would do it a business. Yeah, what's your office space
cost you?
Speaker 2 (43:29):
What's this? What's that? You know?
Speaker 3 (43:30):
So gymnastics is a great feel good people on campus,
love of people in community love it, and it's revenue generating,
which makes them a valuable sport more than financially than
the other sports.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
That they are losing everything. Yeah, yeah, and I did,
I did, I misspoke there.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
Of course they generate some revenue, but according to the
you know, the the profit and loss statement, the P
and L statement and the financials, the expenses supersede the
revenue and therefore they don't generate a profit.
Speaker 2 (43:59):
Is how I should have put that.
Speaker 3 (44:01):
When it comes to you to be surprised how many
basketball don't but keep going, it comes to what as far.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
As men's basketball programs, you should think. It's not as
much a couscous You think very because my understanding is
they all are profitable simply for one thing, and that's
March madness.
Speaker 2 (44:15):
How much money the term membrings in? Is that not
the case? I don't think so.
Speaker 3 (44:18):
Do you have any idea what it is here? I
did you know when chart Rick was here, we were
making a profit. Of course in every way. Final four
runs might help a little bit, you know, doubt well,
you take outside of Gonzaga in the West Coast Conference.
Speaker 1 (44:34):
Yeah, but he's making money, Yeah, yeah, let me ask
you this before I say you lose. Is somebody that
wants upon a time was in charge of the budgets
and how this works. Because we talked about this to
kind of start the conversation. What I've been told is
the initial cash infusion will be used to service debt
and then they're gonna move over to maybe some stadium
renovations with the Huntsman Center and rise secals I anticipate
(44:56):
as part of the renovations based off of what I'm
anticipating with you know, opt prices more like luxury suites,
maybe some branding opportunities, licensing opportunities, you can. You know,
they're gonna come up with creative ways, these private equity guys,
like you can put your name on a seat of
rice Cycles. Now it's just gonna cost you twenty grand
stuff like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, So how does that work?
(45:16):
Like when you analyze what the Huntsman Center needs, what
what the football stadium needs? Like when you're going through
that process, what does that look like?
Speaker 3 (45:23):
I benefited from this. We didn't known and operate the
the arena and rice Cycles. We paid a rental fee
and so we have if they did events at Rice
Cycle Stadium. We didn't make money, okay, but you know,
and that was the way it was and one of
the rubs I had. But but for me, they could
charge us whatever we wanted. Sometimes they could do you know.
(45:45):
So it was very scary. But at the same time,
if I had an extra nickel, would I spend that
on fixing the floor or getting another athlete?
Speaker 2 (45:51):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (45:53):
Pretty soon the floors would be ruined, right right, right right? Sorry,
So you know that's something that people didn't never understood
and how they would charge us, and that would cause
some tension on campus. Yeah, and that was a way
if they thought the way I did would be a
way of help supporting us without it having a red
flag attached to it.
Speaker 2 (46:12):
Huh.
Speaker 3 (46:12):
Give them a little rental fee and they don't have
to pay all the maintenance of all the electricity and stuff.
That's more detail than you would ever want.
Speaker 1 (46:19):
No, that's I didn't even know that. That's really interesting. Look,
we could there's so many layers to this stuff. We
could talk for another two hours, but I'm gonna sell
you lose so you can go get to the back nine.
Speaker 2 (46:27):
Okay, that's tomorrow, eighteen tomorrow. I love it. Yeah yeah, yeah,
no kid in the rank. Advantage of it. Great to see. Okay,
every buddy, thanks all right, Doctor Chris Hill.
Speaker 1 (46:35):
I want to remind you that ESPN seven hundred and
the Rocky Mountain Chevy Dealers and buy you to help
those at the road home this holiday season with needed blankets, coats, shoes,
hats and gloves. Drop off donations at any Rocky Mountain
Chevy dealer
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