Classic Audio: Waco Survivor David Thibodeau

Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
The following presentation is Del Marvis Studio'sproduction. You're listening to the fact Hunter
Radio Network. Here is your host, George Hobbs. Welcome back, fact
hunters and truth seekers from around theworld. It's time for another edition of
a classic audio series, and tonightwe'd like to tip the cap to our

(00:23):
friend Joe for providing this link.I've come up upon it before, It's
been a while since I had listenedto it. As many longtime listeners know,
every April nineteenth, we have ashow five or six hours during the
day where we reflect on both OklahomaCity and Waco. And for the next
eighty minutes or so, you're goingto listen to the testimony of one of

(00:46):
the Waco survivors. His name isDavid Thibodeau. Born and raised in Bangor,
Maine. He was one of thesurvivors of the tragedy that unfolded at
Mount Carmel near Waco, Texas.What has it been thirty years now?
Right? And for those again brandnew to the rabbit Holes. February nineteen

(01:06):
ninety three, the ATF rated DavidKoresh's Branch Davidian Compound. It was a
small religious community and it triggered out, you know, this long drawn out
gun battle that resulted in many,many lost lives. After a fifty one
day standoff, the conflict ended withan FBI assault that led to a fire

(01:27):
that everybody remembers, that image engulfingthe Branch Davidian compound killed seventy six people,
which most were Thibodeau's friends and peoplewho he considered family. The interview
you're going to hear today was fromnineteen ninety nine. It was his book
that he was promoting. It's calleda Place called Waco, a Survivor's Story.

(01:49):
And again for the next eighty minutes, he doesn't mince any words.
And again, for those who havenot been down this rabbit hole before,
whom may be new to the truthcommunity, you're really going to understand how
evil our government is, how theyspun these just crazy people, right,

(02:12):
that's what they told the American people. These people were nuts, and they
were a threat to our lives.And the fact is they did everything by
the book. Now, look arethey perfect. Of course they're not perfect,
but nobody is. But to justifyit with killing seventy six men,
women, and children, and fornobody to be held accountable for it is
simply absurd. So again thanks toour friend Joe for sharing this link.

(02:37):
It runs eighty minutes and enjoy,God bless everyone, have a great rest
of your week. And without anyfurther ado, here is David Thibodeaux from
nineteen ninety nine. Well everyone,I want to say again thank you very
much for coming tonight. We're veryexcited to have David Thibodeau here. He's
going to be speaking and then we'lltake some of your questions for about half

(02:59):
an hour. Please help me welcomeDavid Tibodeau. Okay, ahead, thing,
I'm used to standing when I dothese things, but this this will
be a different form. Thank youso much all for coming out. It's

(03:20):
a pleasure to be here tonight inthe live music capital of the world,
Austin, Texas. And I'm veryproud to be an Austin night now.
And uh, it's different when youdo I've done these for the last couple
of weeks then quite a few signings, and it's just it's just different when
you see your your your your crowdhere from from the place that you live.

(03:42):
So thank you for coming out.I guess I'll start off at the
beginning. I'm going to try tokeep it brief. Sometimes I tend to
get a little sidetracked because in thisissue there's so much to cover and one
of the problems I guess I'll startwith one of the problems with with with
the with the trials that occurred inSan Antonio six and a half year years
ago, up to the Senator danforth in in quest that's going to be

(04:04):
occurring on coming up in the nextcouple of months. Is the trials in
San Antonio focused on the events ofFebruary twenty eighth and the BATF attack,
and basically they tried the people,eleven of them on conspiracy to commit murder
charges, which everyone was acquitted ofthat charge. Several of them were found

(04:27):
guilty of a lesser charge of aidingand a betting voluntary manslaughter. But due
to a little snaffu well, thejury was given a ninety four page rule
book that they had to follow inthe trials, I see a lot of
people shaking their head. I mean, a jury should be able to hear
all the evidence. That's the wayI view it, and they shouldn't be
limited by a federal judge saying thisis what you have to do when you

(04:48):
make your decision. So they werebasically five of them were found guilty of
having a foot well, nine ofthem were found guilty of having a final
arm during what the judge called thecommission of a crime for February twenty eighth,
and that is when the BTF attackedyou had a gun in your hand.
Basically you went to jail. Someof them are in jail for forty

(05:09):
years on a weapons violation that thejury felt was thrown out according to the
count three aspect of the verdict.So I have talked to Sarah Baine,
that hed jury four woman that wasthere that day at the trials in San
Antonio, and she said, hadwe seen all the evidence that we had
seen since the trials that the judgesuppressed from us, we would have acquitted

(05:31):
everybody on all charges. So basically, right now there's seven political prisoners,
some of which have been under veryharsh conditions in various institutions throughout the country.
Some of them are there for fortyyears on a weapons violation that the
jury was thrown out. And Ithink that's a very important point to make.
The whole problems with the trials inSan Antonio was the fact that the
judge focused only on February twenty eighth, And my concern is with the hearings

(05:57):
of Dan Forth, he's only goingto focus on the events of April nineteen
and what happened at the back ofthe building, and of course the infrared
videotape that we'll be discussing a littlelater. So the big problem that I
have is you can't really understand Waco. You can't understand what really happened there
unless you handle it from A toZ and you cover everything in between.
Because what the FBI did when theyset up their speaker systems, it was

(06:20):
so crass. The light systems.Literally the psychological effect of here's a guy
that they say, David Koresh isa person's very unstable and you have a
bunch of religious wackos is what we'vebeen called consistently throughout the course of the
fifty one days. And their planis to play loud music, the sounds

(06:42):
of rabbits being slaughtered to Benton's monkchanting dig just Faery is taking the phone
off the hook for forty eight hoursat a time. So their plan was
to make us even more unstable.That doesn't make a lot of sense to
me. So the point I wantedto make in opening up is I hope
Senator Dan For with a former SenatorDan Forth, and I hope that some
of the civil cases and the Senateinquest it's going to be taking place,

(07:06):
we'll focus more than just on Aprilnineteenth, because you'll never be able to
see the big picture unless you focuson the whole thing from A to Z.
So with that, I'd like tostart off by saying, I'm David
Thibodeau, and I grew up inBangor, Maine, And ever since I
was a little kid and I firstpicked up drumsticks, I knew what I
wanted to do with my life.I wanted to play music, and so

(07:29):
I did everything in my power tomake that dream happen. Once I graduated
from high school, I got ajob, I started saving up to go
to Los Angeles. I played inseveral bands, came home to school every
single day and played the drums andjust lived in that little world, literally
closing my eyes and seeing thousands ofpeople in front of me and just getting
off on the rush of what thatwould be like every day. And that
was my only goal in life,setting out in this whole adventure. And

(07:50):
I ended up in Hollywood finally,and I graduated from music school, and
over the course of the next sixmonths or so, I was playing in
a band out there, and Ihad a dead end. I was working
at Man's Shiny Seater at the giftshop, and I had one of those
stupid red smocks on. And Iremember one day I was so frustrated with
my wife. I looked up tothe heavens, or at least I looked

(08:11):
up to the ceiling of Man's ShinyCedar, and I said, Lord,
what are you saving me for?You know, when can I finally meet
the people and I'm supposed to meetso I can start my life, so
I can do what I want todo instead of being in this rut.
And I said, you know,just please make this happen. I know
that I'm here for a reason.I know that I'm not here just aimlessly
walking through life in Hollywood living,you know, living with a bunch of

(08:33):
guys in a one room apartment.And two days later, I was late
for a band rehearsal. I hadmy band members with me and I made
them literally made them they didn't wantto do it. I made them stop
at Guitar Center on Sunset Boulevard soI could buy some drumsticks. And when
I did, I walked into theelectronic drum room, which I had a
very bad habit of doing. Theyalways had a kid set up and I
would always sit down and play it. And there were these two gentlemen that

(08:56):
were standing there looking at the electronicdrum set and they asked me if I
was a drummer. So I was, and I sat down I played the
drums for him. They said thatthey were be interested in purching this kit
and they wanted to hear it.So I sat down and played for three
minutes or so, and when Igot up the guy there was a guy
in a business suit, and therewas a guy in a T shirt with
ragged jeans. It was just kindof really laid back and the guy the

(09:18):
suit if he will approach me,and he says, wow, you know
pretty good drummer. We're looking forone for our band, or would you
be interested in getting together with us? I said, yeah, sure,
and I'm in a band now,but I'm always interested to play with different
people. And so they handed metheir card and I looked at the card
and on the back of the carthere was all this religious scripture. I
was revolving around the Kingdom to beset up, but I didn't realize that

(09:39):
at the time, nor did Ireally care. I saw the religious scripture
and I handed the card back tohim. I said, well, thank
you very much. You know,I'm the spiritual person, but I don't
believe that I'm really looking to bein a Christian band at this time.
And that's when Steve piped up andhe said, well, you know,
it's like this, we're not reallya Christian band. What we are as
we've studied the Scripture. I've beenall over the world with this guy,

(10:00):
David Koresh, and he introduced David, and David didn't really say too much.
He just kind of sat back andlet Steve do most of the talking.
He said, I've been all overthe world, and you know,
I've we've studied this this this bookthey call him the Bible. We ripped
it apart and we just have someinsights to it. And you know,
really all we want to do isplay music right now. And you know,
we do have a message that isrevolving around the scripture, but you

(10:20):
know, it's really not our focusright now. We just would like to
play music with you. I said, okay. I kind of left with
the attitude don't call me, I'llcall you. And a couple of days
later, you know, things weren'tgoing so wrong. I just started thinking
about this, and I was reallyimpressed with the suits. And he was
a very good orator, you know, Steve Schneider, and and David is
just real quiet and you know,kind of mysterious. He said a few
things, and then I gave hima call, and over the course of

(10:43):
the next day or so, wegot together and went They had a property
in Pomona, It's about forty fiveminutes out of Hollywood, and we went
there and played some music. Ithought David was a great guitarist. I
met their artist, Cliff Sellers,who had paint airbrushed guitars, and it
was just they seemed to really haveit together. They were very professional,
and that's something that I liked well. Over the course the next couple months,

(11:05):
I got to know him a littlebetter, and specifically, Steve Schneider
would come over with some of theguys and give us studies because I said,
you know, we want to showyou some of these things out of
this book. And I remember thefirst night I had my roommates and they
were all sitting around. I said, hey, I forgot to tell you,
guys, but I have a coupleof people coming over for we're going
to have a Bible study. Ihope you don't mind. And they were

(11:26):
like, why didn't you tell us? You know, I could have gotten
a day with my girlfriend, orwe could have gone out to the movies
or something, you know, andthey were literally reaching for their coats when
the knot came at the door andit was Steve Schneider and as Jamie Cassillo,
Greg Summers, just several of theyounger guys were there. I even
think Cliff was there. Let's see, Peter was there, Peter Hipsmian and
you should have seen the look ontheir faces when the door knoed and I

(11:48):
opened the door and they all camein and said, hey, you know,
I mean you're already They had atwelve pack of beer with him.
You know. All of a sudden, my roommate said, well, you
know, I think we can stayfor a few minutes and let's to do
what they got to say. AndI just remember when Steve Schneider sat down
and he had this one inch marginBible, you know, we can make

(12:09):
your notes. And he opened thatbook and every page that he had had
all this grit, had all thiscross references color coded in it on every
single page. It was just absolutelyfilled with cross references. Instantly, I
was impressed because I could see thatthese I was never impressed, and I
hope I don't offend anyone here,but I was never impressed with the TV
preachers and the hypocrisy of not all, but several organized religions. You know.

(12:33):
I was always more into the smallmovements of religion that seemed to be
a little more pure in heart.And then as they grow, and of
course it becomes a money financial institution, it tends to lose focus a little,
I think a lot. And soI was impressed with the way that
they ripped the Bible apart, andthey had really done their research and studied.
And that's what impressed me was thefact that it was more of an
intellectual study, that it wasn't indoctrinizationor they never came off preachy that would

(12:56):
have turned me off instantly. Andso they went through their study and two
hours later, I'm looking around,my roommates are still sitting there. I
to me that was an act ofGod. And I remember the course of
the next couple months, we gottogether severalcations and had studies. Then one

(13:18):
day David Kriesh invited me out toWaco, Texas, a place called Waco
and he said to be we're goingout there for Passover, which is one
of the two week periods of thefestival periods of God in the scripture.
And he said, literally, there'sgoing to be hundreds of people from all
over the world that are going tobe coming to learn these truths. He
says, you're going to meet,you know, the people that are carpenters,

(13:39):
people that are architects, people thathave gone to seminary school, people
that are pastors in their own churchesin England. I said, well,
that sounds kind of interesting, andhe asked me if I wanted to go,
and at the time I was prettyadventure simmon. I did. So.
We pulled up to Mount Carmel andI took a look at all the
single buildings that line the place upand I just thought it was one of

(14:01):
the strangest places I'd ever seen inmy life. And we got there a
week early, so we started playingsome music and stuff, and people started
arriving, and I started to questionthese people. I said, why are
you here? What do you hopeto gain from this? And I must
have talked to ten or fifteen differentpeople at various times, and they basically
all told me the same thing.They said that they had learned more about

(14:24):
the Scripture from this person, DavidKoresh, and they had their whole lives
studying on their own or being pastorsor going to seminary school. And it's
just like everyone seemed to have thesame testimony. So I wanted to see
what it was going to be,you know, what it was really all
about. I always knew that therewas a mystery to this book. I
always wondered in my life, howcome so many thousands and thousands of people

(14:46):
have died, put their lives onthe line and sacrificed their lives for this
scripture throughout the course of time.See that has a power to it.
And over the course of that too. I remember the very first study and
the reason that I'm relating the storiesbecause a lot of people ask me,
you know, how could you followsomeone like David Koresh. People say this,
but they have no idea who hewas. All they know is what

(15:09):
they've heard, and they've made theirjudgments because they've heard some very bad things.
Well, there's always two sides ofthe story. In this case,
there's I think hundreds of sides tothe story. The first study that he
gave me, he hit a Bible. He had a Bible, and he
held it up. He says.Most people see this book and they see
two pieces of cow leather with abunch of pages in between, and they

(15:31):
spend their life trying to unravel themystery or get some kind of basic truth
out of it. He says,No, when I see, and he
held up to his forehead, hegoes, when I see it, I
see it panoramically, as if it'shappening now, from Genesis to Revelation,
right now, as it's happening.That was pretty tough pill to swallow.
But over the course of the nexttwo weeks, we had studies that would

(15:52):
last anywhere from ten to twelve hoursa day, and they were they were
very entertaining. I mean, itwasn't something that I thought dry. I
mean I actually started to become involvedand become part of this world of the
scripture, and it was something thatI started to embrace, and I literally,
over the course that two weeks,came to believe, you know,
that wasn't even one hundred percent sureif this was the final messager, this

(16:15):
was the messenger, but I cameto believe that David did see the scripture
that way, panoramically, as ifit had happened, as if he had
been there when he gave a study. He gave a study with literally the
looks on the faces of the peoplethat are written in the scripture, so
you could actually see the sarcasms,you could see the nuances of the communication
that was taking place in the Bible, where before I could never see that

(16:37):
reading. And on my own itjust made me go to sleep, frankly,
and so it was something that heldthe interest. I think one thing
that I saw David do on severaloccasions, and he did this with me
as well. After that two orthree week period when everyone started to leave,
played music a little more, andyou know, I was trying to
absorb all this stuff. He says, what I want to do now,
is you know. I want youto be my drummer. I want you

(17:00):
to be in the band, butyou've have now have the basic foundations of
the seven Seals, first five seals, if you will, And what I
want to do is you would youlike to go to Maine and see your
parents? Absolutely, I'd love togo see my parents. You know,
it was on him right why not? And my head was spinning. Frankly,
I definitely needed some time to absorbit all, and so he sent

(17:21):
me up to Many said, youknow, take a couple of weeks,
take a month, take whatever timeyou need. If you find that you
know and ask people about these sevenSeals, go to preachers, go to
rabbis, go to anybody, andif they have some insight into the seals,
let me know. I might beinterested. But if I'm pretty sure
that you're going to find that noone even knows what they are or the
most people are going to say thatthere's a mystery and we're waiting for Christ

(17:44):
to come back before those things canbe revealed. If they don't know,
and you want to learn more,come on back. You know, we
want to have you in. AndI said, well, okay, that's
pretty fair. Well over the courseof the next month, I went to
Maine and I got a call oneday about a month later, and I
was putting it off because I wasconvicted at this point. I mean,
I had known that there was somethingthere, but at the same time,
I didn't really want to entirely giveup my life and just go and live

(18:08):
on what we call the Ant Hillbecause we got the Texas fire ants here
and there's several at Mount Carmel.So I ended up going back, and
I ended up going back to Hollywood, and several events took place, if
you will, I'm gonna kind ofwrap it up real quickly here. Within

(18:29):
six months we ended up being inHollywood, we ended up moving to Mount
Carmel. There's several events that tookthat took place that are really important,
But because I really want to getto questions, you're gonna have to look
it up in the book. Buta lot of very very interesting, very
deep things happened to me during thatperiod of time that I was in Hollywood,
and a lot of them revolved arounda certain friend of mine who was

(18:52):
in a band as well out there, and Koresh had some insights that literally
just just just blew me away.He could know this about my friend,
and all these things were factors.So we ended up moving to Mount Carmel
about a year before the Batf attackof February twenty eighth, and throughout that
year we tore down the little housesand we started to build up the major

(19:14):
complex there called Mount Carmel, andthe big building that everyone saw, we
built a swimming pool. David Koreshand Steve Schneider would. Steve would he
was a brilliant salesman. I meanSteve basically would negotiate all the deals.
We ended up getting go karts,building a track the children, some of
the Agro boys got small dirt bikesand we would all go out and play

(19:37):
on the track. What ended uphappening is through a person that I met
in Waco, and we had tiesin Waco. I mean, this wasn't
some community that was just totally withinthemselves out in the middle of nowhere.
I mean the branch of Indians,or what became to be known as a

(19:57):
Branch of Indians, actually the branchof he and stemmed from an earlier group
that had lived out there, hadbeen there for sixty years. David Koresh
was the third of what people outthere called inspired or if you will,
a profit, and he was thethird one to get the complete vision of
the Seven Seals. Before them,there was Hattaf and Lois Rodin who preceded

(20:18):
David. So it wasn't just somefly by night group that David started.
It was something that built off afoundation of several years, and there were
several people that had been there almostfrom the inception of it, who tell
me stories that David first came onthe scene. His name was Vernon Howell.
When he first came on the scene, he was basically he could barely
formulate a sentence. I mean,he had a great knowledge of the scripture,
but he was no order. Hewas great with working on cars,

(20:41):
but he stuttered. He had astuttering problem. And literally after nineteen eighty
five, when he claimed to havehis vision of the Seven Seals, he
started to talk very clearly, veryconcisely, and it was almost like an
overnight transformation that a lot of theolder people there told me about, which
I thought was very impressed. Impressive. Well, I ended up meeting someone

(21:04):
whose father was Henry McMahon, whowas a licensed firearm dealer that ran a
place called the Hewitt Handguns and wasright outside of Waco and Hewett, Texas.
But and Henry basically started to getstudies from David and started to learn
a lot of things and thought that, you know, David was someone that

(21:25):
was very special, someone was veryinspired and started to take David to gun
shows. I mean that was kindof his forte And through these little excursions
of going to gun shows here inTexas, they David and Paul and Steven
Schneider found out a couple things.They found out that because of all the
the legislations coming down the pike oftwo two three round is going up in
value, that AK forty seven's aregoing up in value from five hundred dollars

(21:48):
to two thousand dollars overnight. Andyou started to they started to actually take
on the business of going to gunshows and doing everything legally, having the
yellow sheets on all the firearms andbasically buying and selling legally. There were
people inside that made vests hunters veststhat were sold at the gun shows,
as well as several other things thatoccurred. And one of the things that

(22:12):
ended up happening is as we werebuilding the pool that summer, helicopters started
to fly by really low, andyou know, we could tell they were
taking pictures. We knew that,you know, we were being watched.
I mean, you know, abig group of people out there in the
middle of nowhere. It's pretty strangeaccording to most people, which most Americans
tend to forget that America was foundedon a bunch of religious extremists that came

(22:37):
to this nation and started to puttogether the Constitution. And I think it's
important to remember that the Baptists werescourged in the streets when they first came.
And I'm sure a lot of youknow about the history of the Mormons
and what they had to suffer whenthey were first starting with their particular doctrine.
And so it comes from a longfoundation of I guess killing or being

(23:00):
up what you can understand or whatyou don't want to understand, or is
specifically what the establishment can understand.And from this point that Henry came into
being, that's when all the gunstuff started happening. A couple other interesting
things took place. Well, HenryMcMahon one day gave us a call and

(23:22):
he had been raided by the BATFThe Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms,
and they were going through all hisyellow sheets and they started to ask
Henry and David Aguilera, the bATF agent headed up the whole investigation,
he started to ask a lot ofquestions about David Koresh to Henry. He
says, well, Henry says,you're investigating me. Why you're asking me
all these questions about Krush? Youshould investigate Koresh or go speak with him.

(23:45):
So Henry excused himself in one ofthe kitchen and this all came out
to trials in San Antonio. EverythingI'm saying I can prove has happened.
So Henry McMahon went into the otherroom. He got the phone and he
called David and he said, David, the BATF for here, and they're
rating me. They're going through allmy yellow sheets and asking me a lot

(24:07):
of questions about you. What doyou want me to do? And Chris
said, well, once't you havehim come on out to the property.
This is about two to three monthsbefore February twenty eighth. Have them come
out to the property. They cancheck out any of the yellow sheets on
any of the firearms that we purchased. They have any questions, but he
yet put them on the phone.I'll speak to him. Henry McMahon went

(24:27):
into the other room and he said, I have David Koresh on the phone.
He wants to speak to you.He's and buy the out to the
property. And David Aguilera shook hishead and waved his hands above his head
like this. He didn't want tospeak to David. Never wanted to ever
try to make any contact with David, other than when the four individuals ended

(24:48):
up moving across the street, whichwas going to bring me my next story.
These four guys move across the streetone day out of the blue.
This is about a month or sobefore the initial attack. And when they
did this, there was four guysmove in a two room house. They
bring in all this heavy equipment.You know, they don't move in furniture,
but they move in this equipment andthey start to set up their little

(25:11):
surveillance. And over the course ofthe next couple of days, well,
there was an event that took placeI think is pretty funny. Greg Summers
at the request that David brought oversome beer and some pizza to the guys
across the street to kind of welcomethem, welcome, welcome them to the
neighborhood. And seeing you say,there's only two people in the neighborhood,
you know, why not make friendswith their neighbors. And so they knocked

(25:32):
at the door and they said,yeah, we're from across the street.
We just wanted to bring you guysover some beer and some pizzas and say
hi. And this hand came outof the door, grabbed the pizza,
pulled the pizza in and slammed thedoor and said, thank you. I
got my girl in here. Sothat's pretty strange, you know, I
mean, obviously either he had hisgirl in there there definitely wasn't something they

(25:52):
did not want us to see.So over the course of the next week
or so, they did come inand finally make contact. The guy named
Robert Rodriguez or Robert Gonzalez, theones an alias one's his real name.
I think Rodrigus was the name ofwas the alias came over, started to
make contact with David and basically overthe course of the next he had nine
to thirteen contacts with David I believeit was nine, and David instantly started

(26:17):
giving him studies. Robert was aman that was raised Catholic, and as
David would give him studies, Icould see this look on his face.
I mean it was like he wasstarting to get his question answers. Like
myself and all the people that werethere, literally, David could answer all
our questions from a scriptural standpoint.Steve Schneider and Wayne Martin and Paul Fatta,
they tried to rip them apart formonths before they joined this community,

(26:37):
and they couldn't do it. Therewas an interview that this individual did with
the Washington Times. I believe itwas right after the well April nineteenth in
the place burned the ground, andhe said a couple of very interesting things.
One was that the interviewer said,was David close? Meaning were you
close to being in the community orbeing converted if you will? He said,

(27:00):
yeah, it was close. Ithink that's very interesting. He said
in other statements that the agents hadto shake him up and say, you're
here to do a job. Youknow you're not here to get converted.
Robert, come on. He alsosaid that when the FBI took over,
the FBI said, what can youtell us about David? What's going to
happen next? And Robert said,well, give me a Bible. I'll

(27:22):
show you exactly what he's going todo next from that scripture. And the
FBI looked at him like he wascrazy. They wanted nothing to do with
it. And then Robert said,he went out through his Bible awayne and
you know, it was very sorrowful. He'd lost four friends that day.
And I think it's really interesting thatthe BATF I mean, Robert said he
saw no signs of illegal activity duringthe time he was in there, and

(27:45):
they still went forward with the raid. I mean, they have an undercover
guy in there. Why won't theywork with their own undercover agent. Why
won't they listen to what he's saying. We'll talk about the warrant in a
minute. But after this period oftime, the Waycoach Tribune Herald put out
what they call this seven part series, a sinful Messiah series that was very
demonizing him. It's just a veryharsh piece. They didn't ask for our

(28:07):
side of the story at all.And they started to talk about if you're
a Branch Davidian, you believe Pricelives on a threadbare in piece of land
in the middle of Waco, Texas, and he's a beer drinking, guitar
tote and gun toting preacher. That'show it started. That's like the headline,
right, and that's the first ofa seven part series, because so

(28:27):
you can imagine that we pretty muchsaw that something was about to take place.
Now, the problem, I haveseveral problems, but the first of
many problems that I have with theBATF attack is number one. When you
look at the warrant and rip itapart. Basically, they went to the
judge, a Judge Green, underfalse pretenses. They relied on information that

(28:49):
was the child abuse information and allegationscame from a guy named Mark Brow who
studied under David for several years andthen left. They relied on information that
was five years old. Under federallaw, when you go to a judge,
you have to have current information atleast six months old or at the
most six months old before you canget a warning against someone. Davey Aghlir,

(29:10):
who headed up that report, saidthat Koresh was receiving upper and lower
receivers to put together fully automatic AKforty sevens. That's a BATF agent.
The problem with this scenario is anAK forty seven is a solid body firearm.
You can't get an upper and lowerreceiver for it. Therefore, how
can you put it together make afully automatic weapon. That's an AK forty
seven. Now, this is inthe warrant. This is what they went

(29:34):
to the judge with to get aknock search horn, which the judge signed.
He gave him a knock search horn. I don't know what your interpretation
of a knock search warrn is,but mine, as you go up to
the door, you knock on thedoor, and you serve the warrant,
you go in and get your evidence. Okay. They chose to serve a
knock search horrant with what they calledOperation Trojan Horse, and the cold word

(29:55):
for Operation Trojan Horse to go downwith showtime literally it's showtime now. They
chose to serve this warrant with twocattle trailers pulling to the front of the
building, four or five ATF teams. One team was to go to the
back of the building. Another teamwas to go up to the side of
the building and go into what theythought was the gun room or the evidence
room. And everyone seeing the picturesof that ATF agent trying to break the

(30:18):
window and get into that door jumpinto the door and then they see all
this fire coming at the ATF agentsand you see the guy go down the
ladder. Another group of ATF agentswas to go to the front door and
quote unquote serve the warrant that noone ever saw in their hand and was
sealed up. When the FBI hadasked for that warrant, they said,
oh, it was all shot upin the raid, so we can't produce

(30:40):
that warrant. Literally, that wassealed up until after April nineteenth. No
one ever saw that search warrant.Another group of ATF agents was to go
to the front of an area wherewe had a penned up area with five
Alaskan malamutes fun and or four pups, and their job was to suppress the
dogs. Now, there was aneight ye and I'm gonna call it exactly

(31:00):
what it is. There was anATF propaganda film that was put out.
It was played on HBO. Isaw it on Court TV of all things,
the other day, I mean onhe have absolutely disgussed. I'm sitting
ready to go on Hardball and thereis this movie is called in the Line
of Duty. And the reason Ibring this up is because Phil Penngrath,

(31:21):
the man that wrote that was givenall this false information put this movie out,
and it was made during the siegebefore April nineteenth. This was already
in production, was basically completed.He has since come forward and said,
since he's seen all this information thatthe government didn't get him when he was
making this particular film, call itthat he has said that it's wrong.

(31:45):
He did a five page letter andcame to one of our memorials and apologized
to all of the survivors profusely.And in his five page letter, he
likened himself to I hope I gethis name right, Lennie Ruthenstahl, who
was the woman who did all theHitler documentaries. And once once Lenny went
into Poland and saw what Hitler wasreally doing and what the Nazis were all

(32:05):
about, she pulled out and allof a sudden became really really quiet.
Well, this guy with much shamelikens himself to her as he made a
propaganda film. And the reason Ibring this whole little story up is because
in their film, the ATF agentsgo up to the Pendump barrier where the
dogs are with fire extinguishers, andthey start spraying the dogs. Let me
tell you, they didn't have fireextinguishers that day. They shot those dogs

(32:27):
in cold blood time. From thetrial testimony, some of the testimony indicated
that the very first shots may havebeen fired at the dogs in the pend
up area from the ATF agents.This is all happening simultaneously while there's three
helicopters in the back of the buildingthat are supposed to be there for support,
coming into the back of the buildingshooting at the building. According to
several eyewitness testimony, I personally sawthe evidence of the bullet holes that came

(32:52):
from had to come from the sky. They were in the ceiling with literally
sheet rock hanging down. I sawthey shut up our water tanks. I
literally got on my knees. Ilooked through the entry and the exsit The
bullet came from right where the sideright where the tank is a conclave and
you could see the bullet hole whereit came in to where it came out,

(33:12):
and at an angle you could seeit was fired between the two towers
that we had out there house firedfrom the air. Absolutely, that's the
one that killed Winston Blake. Somy point, they chose, they chose
to serve this warrant, like likea dynamic entry style or a no knock
search warrant. I mean they're alreadybreaking down windows while they're coming up to

(33:34):
serve the warrant. Now, theATF IS claimed profusely that it was an
ambush, that they were outgunned.Well, if we were a group of
if you will, quote unquote cultiststhat wanted to kill the Babylonians or kill
federal authorities, and we had fullyautomatic weapons, and we had fifty caliber
machine guns, and we were hadhad forty five minutes where we knew that

(34:00):
they were coming, and we wereallaying wait for him. I'm here to
tell you, unless we're terrible,terrible shots and all blind, not one
of those agents would have walked outthat cattle trailer. It was simply never
part of the plan. There wasno plan. The agents had died,
The four Agians had died, diedtwenty minutes into the gun battle. We
had videotape of these agents standing behindcars, standing up shooting into the second

(34:24):
story of the building where all thekids are like it's a set of a
Rambo movie. And yet they've beenambushed, they were out gunned. Their
story from day one never made anysense. Two pieces of evidence I'm going
to bring up really quickly. Oneis the front door. And at that
front door, it was very mysteriousbecause the story from my friends on the

(34:45):
inside was that David Crush went tothe door. I came down thirty seconds
before the shooting began. He said, now they're on their way. They're
coming now, don't anybody do anythingstupid. We want to talk to them,
we want to work it out.That's we're all about here. He
was the front door and just literallyall hell broke loose. I instantly was
down on my face. I spoketo several people that were at the front

(35:07):
door. They all told me thesame story at various times that Kresh went
to the door. He held thedoor in his hand, he had his
arm out. He said, holdon, there's women she let's talk about
this. The door flies back inhis hand from the velocity of a bullet
hitting it. He slams the doorand falls back. Perry Jones's seventy year
old and our man goes down andpain from a stomach. And from that
point some of the people inside startedto fire back and defend their positions.

(35:30):
So this door was very important becausewe have pictures of it. And the
two attorneys, I should say DavidKrush's attorney and Steve Steyder's attorney actually came
in via the tanks one day.I actually had two or three separate occasions
and saw the evidence of the helicopter'sfiring. They saw the front door,
and they saw that all the bulletholes are coming from the outside into the

(35:50):
building. Now, there were twosteel doors at the front of the building.
One of them was entered in ormetal doors. I don't know if
they were steeled, there were metal. One was entered into the evide and
its lists the trials at San Antonio, and the other wasn't. It was
conspicuously missing. And the defense attorneysays, what about this metal door?
Where is this metal door that hadall the bullet holes in it? And

(36:12):
all the prosecuting attorneys could say,and their defense was all that door must
have disintegrated in the fire. Itssister door is entered into evidence fully intact.
It's got a couple you know,bumps and knocks and bends from the
tanks running it over. But theother door mysteriously disintegrates in the fire,
doesn't make sense. The second littlepiece of information that I want y'all to

(36:35):
know about is the fact that theATF were recording us. They had cameras
at their surveillance house running all thetime. The FBI, when they came
in and took over the scene,the first thing they said was, we
won all the videotape of the earlystages of the raid that you have.
The ATF said, we don't haveany videotape at the early stages of the
raid. I'm afraid all of ourcameras malfunctioned. Becomes very convenient. I

(37:00):
mean, you know, you cansay, you can say that I'm just
making all this sub It's look,it's all a matter of record. It's
all at the trials in San Antonio. You know. I have a website.
We're making an informational site the nameof the book, a place called
Waco dot com. IM I havethe reports and the cs guess I want
to make the evidence available. Ithink that we've been lied to enough.
Yeah, for the last six anda half years, we've been lied to

(37:22):
consistently, and it's time to layit on the table. I mean,
if you will, David Koresh,myself we've hat all out of our dirty
laundry exposed. Why can't the governmentdo the same thing and say, well,
let's you know, I think theAmerican public can take it. I
think we can take the truth,and I don't think it should be suppressed
from us. I think that's whywe have a constitutional nation. I mean

(37:44):
I was raised very patriotically. Iremember reading in the history books at Valley
Forge, you know how our forefathers, the people that died so we can
have this kind of freedoms that wehave in this country. I have a
constitutional foundation. And all the peoplethat went off to Vietnam and they didn't
even know why and died for us, and yet our government can pull this

(38:05):
on us. It's just a terriblething. You know, It's a terrible
thing. And all I've ever saidsince they want is let's lay it all
out on the table. Well,as you can see, this is going
to create an atmosphere of mistrust,which of course it did. And over
the course of the next fifty onedays, the FBI takes over, and
you know, we felt that we'dhave a better time with the FBI than

(38:28):
we did the ATF and a lotof things happened. They set up the
speaker systems. They started used aspsychops and they actually consulted Russian specialists so
they could make sure to get thebest psychops. And I guess they figured
we'd be like a was it Noriegahwhen they went into it. To Panamian,
he was he was holding out andthey started to play rock and roll
music. Well, the day theyset up the speaker system, the very

(38:50):
first thing they played was an oldAlice Cooper album. Hey, that just
delighted me, you know, andJamie and some of the younger guys were
like excellent, started calling in forrequest. You know, hey, you
know the you deaf Leopard Alum cameout. We're in a siege, You
think you can play that for us? They weren't too happy about that,
and that's when they started to changetheir tone and they had the rabbits being
slaughtered and the phone off the hookfor twenty four hours, forty eight hours,

(39:14):
whatever it was. And you know, from that point on, things
just got worse and worse and worse. And through the course of the FBI
controlling all the media attention and basicallytelling you what to think, we became
the craziest bunch of religious wackos you'dever seen on the face of the earth
that probably deserve what they got.I mean, I think thousands and thousands

(39:37):
of people are coming around now andthey realize they have been lied to.
But I think that the general Americanpublic still holds that perception. I think
that's too bad. Some of thepeople at Mount Carmel. I just want
to go on record as saying we'rethe most brilliant people I've ever known in
my life. I mean, I'dlove to be around people that are better
than me. I like to playwith musicians that are better than me,
because that's how you grow, youknow. I like to be around brilliant

(39:59):
people. And they were the mostbrilliant I've ever known. Wayne Martin,
the Harvard educated attorney Steve Schneider whotaught classes on comparative religions. Livingston Fagan,
one of the gentlemen that's in jailright now who's been in solitary confinement
for years. Livingston Fagan, hewas a pastor of his own church in

(40:19):
England. He came over to studyand I think it's important for people to
know that third of the people thatlived and died at Mount Carmel were black
or is the ACLU when we neededthem, you know, I mean Rodney
King. We had riots in thestreets, but no one knew this.
No one knew that it was sucha diverse group of people and cultures that
existed in Mount Carmel. It's thetime people knew third of the people were

(40:43):
black. I mean, that's youknow, they can't make us out to
be the racist that they would haveliked to have made us out to ben
And some of the reports came outthat there was racial issues and tensions going
on, which, as it wasso was not true. Now I'll give
you an example, and this isone of the things that occurred. And
this is why David was so misunderstood, and people like Mark Brow really fought

(41:06):
against him. There's lots of reasons. But he had a study one day
and he says, I hate blackpeople, and I you know, I
was raised pretty liberally. I waspretty shocked, and everyone was quiet.
He goes, I hate yellow peopleand I hate white people because we here
are people of light. We arepeople that want to understand the truth,

(41:30):
and that's what I relate to.I want people of light around me.
No colors, you know, nonothing to limit you. And he would
always do stuff like that to provokeyou and make you think, and then
there was always a wisdom behind it, and that's one of the things that
impressed upon me. Well, I'mgonna wrap it up to April nineteen so

(41:50):
we can start taking questions. Severalthings did occur, and I just want
people that I was reading a lotof material today. One of the things
that I read I was by agentleman who's who has a very interesting website,
and he did some articles. Andyou have to understand that when you're
in a building and they're starting toplay interviews from people that hate you and

(42:12):
want nothing to do with you,and think you're strange, and think you're
whacking, and think that basically you'reunworthy of life, you start to realize
that there's no allies out there there. It's us against the world, not
us against the f BAT. It'sjust agains. The world hates us now,
well, they haven't even gotten totalk to us, and yet they
just soon have us wiped out.I mean, we were hearing this on

(42:35):
speaker systems, and you start tosay to yourself, you know, people
want to say that krush was guiltyof self fulfilling his prophecy. I think
that during the course of that fiftyone days, with the number of lies
that came out, that the FBI, if there was a guidebook they could
follow what not to do in thesituation, that's the guidebook they chose to

(42:58):
listen to. They didn't listen tothe psychologists that said, don't allow Koresh's
message to come to pass, pullback, don't increase the attention, but
alleviate the tension. You know.They didn't listen to the human side of
it. There's a picture in wakelthe Rules of Engagement and where there's this
infrared video. But even before that, they have scenes where they're talking to

(43:20):
the negotiators and we sent them outa tape. I mean, everyone during
the siege told their story on avideotape and we send it out so people
would relate and say, you know, these are people here that are religious
people. They're studying this book andthey have a right to do that.
You know, they may be guiltyof crimes, but they're just so demonized
that when we sent them this tapeof all the people and I did a

(43:44):
little interview the FBI chose to suppressthat from the public, and it came
out in the congressional hearings. Thecongressional hearings, they asked about this tape,
and the FBI literally said, wefelt that if we were to release
this tape to the public, itwould create much support and sympathy for the
branch. Davidians, Oh, whatyou mean, It might humanize us,

(44:07):
you know, it might take awayfrom your demonization, you know. I
mean I give talks and people say, mister Tibbett, you've done a great
job, and it hiding your warnsand your cloven hoofs. You know,
I mean, from the perception Igot from the press. It's what I
expected when you came here. Ijust said, before I move on,
I want to there's a quote thatI thought was very profound, and it's
exactly what has happened. It followsprecisely what took place. And Senator Henry

(44:31):
Clay said this in the eighteen hundreds. He said, the devices of power
and its minions are the same inall countries and in all ages. It
marks its victim and denounces it,exciting the public hatred so it can conceal
its own abuses and encroachments. No, I read that. I committed it

(44:52):
to memory because it absolutely fit withwhat happened here. And I'm just going
to give you one more parable,if you will, before we talk about
April nineteenth. I'm a big fanof George Orwell's Animal Farm, very happy
to see that it is now aTNT movie, and I'm looking very forward
to seeing that. But if thoseof you that are familiar with this story

(45:12):
will know that the pigs, that'spretty interesting equalization. That the pigs were
the power structures of the farm,and the horses were the workers, and
everyone had their role. And everytime one of the farm animals questioned the
authority of the pigs, the sheep, who weren't too bright, the sheep

(45:32):
will would break in to their mantrafour legs good, two legs bad,
four legs good, two legs bad, and the whole farm would break into
this mancher and they would forget thequestion. They would forget to question the
pigs and question authority because the wholeworld saying four legs good, two legs
bad. And the FBI, overthe course of fifty one days, every

(45:55):
single day consistently, federal agents goodBrandsavidians, Federal Agent's good, Branston Vidian's
bad, and the entire nation joinedin, you know. And it's a
shame because I feel that we havethe greatest country on the face of the
earth. I feel that Americans areincredibly industrial. I mean, we've done

(46:16):
so much to advance technology and toadvance this world that we're not smart enough
to say. I mean, thereshould have been someone that should stop.
That was Janet Reno's job. Shesaid stop. You know, these people
may be strange, you know,but there's two factions here, and there's
kids involved, which brings me backto my original point in WAKEL the rules

(46:39):
of engagement. When they go inand they show the negotiators, you get
a picture of what they called thecompound. When I called my home,
they got a picture of Mount Carma. They get a picture of David Koresh
And the whole mental attitude was that'sthe criminal, this is the enemy.
We need to get him. Theyshould have had pictures of Serendity Jones and

(46:59):
Joe's in Isaiah and Startle and Cyrusand the kids that were in that building,
that negotiator's house, and the tacticalCommander's houses should have been lined up
with the pictures of these kids,and the attitude should have been, this
is an innocent child. We needto do whatever it takes to get them
out of there. And if itmeans speaking Krush's language and not you know,
castizing him in the media and gettingtwo theologians in that are willing to

(47:22):
work with us, like James Taborand Phil Arnold, who poresh wanted to
get his manuscript out too, thenthat's what we got to do. I
think it's unfortunate that it's such abrilliant nation that the ball was dropped that
we lost sight of that and peopleare dead now because of it. You
know what, I'm not going totalk about April nineteenth because I want to
open up the questions. I knowwe're running out of time, and I

(47:44):
know that someone's going to ask meabout it, so we'll get in some
really juicy stuff. There is that. Okay, if you could stand up
and wait for the mic. Yeah, Incidentally, this is being recorded for
c SPAN. It's going to goat national So if you have a good
question and stand up and face thecamera and make sure everyone can hear you,

(48:04):
yes, sir, Yeah, stepputter heart. My question is the
point you just made about the hthe protection of the children should not have
been a two way street. Imean, shouldn't the right of the children
been or the obligation of protecting thechildren been considered from the Davidian standpoint as
well, in terms of well,maybe we should drop this, Maybe we

(48:27):
should put the children's safety ahead ofour principles and go ahead and surrender for
the sake of the children. That'sa very interesting question. It's a very
deep question. I know it's onethat most Americans had on their minds during
the course of the fifty one Days. There's a couple of things that I
think you need to understand. Numberone is, when a tank drives through
your living room, you tend notto go out to those people that are
assaulting you. When they start settingup speaker systems, you know, you

(48:51):
tend to incorporate as a group andsay this is my family. But I
think the more important issue is thateighteen people, including men and women and
children, did exit during the fiftyone Days. When negotiations were going good,
and Kresh had one negotiator he likeda lot, and he kept asking
for him. They pulled them off. He's basically a Christian guy. He
wanted to help, he really did, and Kresh had a great deal of
respect for him. They pulled himoff. During the course of fifty one

(49:14):
days they went through I think itwas nineteen different FBON negotiators. You can't
establish a report, you can't builda relationship with some of that's going on.
So when those eighteen children melt,men, women and children, several
of them children exited the building.One of the things that they did is
they left with very Some of theparents stayed in, some of them didn't.
The kids that exited left with veryspecific instructions. We have very specific

(49:36):
dietary rules. We didn't want ourkids out eating candy bars and running around
like kids of the world, ifyou will. We believe that, you
know, according to our scriptures,there a certain way these kids should be
raised. And that's how they wereraised, you know. And they were
all incredible children, very bright,They helped each other, you know,
they could sit still, you knowwhat I mean. They didn't run around
and just wreck havoc. So thepoint I want to make here is that

(49:58):
the FBI sent us in a videotapeand in the videotape, they had the
kids eat drinking soda pop, eatingcandy bars, watching movies that maybe the
mothers wouldn't have this. The mothersthat remained inside and the fager men inside
were very upset about this videotape,and they called the FBI through the only
one phone line that we had,and they said, you guys are going
expressly against the rules that we setout when we sent our children out.

(50:20):
I don't want my kids to raisethat way. What are you doing?
Why are you doing this? That'snumber one. Number two. I spoke
to a woman, her name wasJulie Martinez, who became a very very
close friend of mine, and Juliehad several children that died in there.
She had five kids that died andshe died as well. And Julie came
to me one night during the stagein tears. I said, what is

(50:44):
wrong? She says, I justgot off the phone with the FBI and
they made it sound like if Iwere to leave here. And I don't
know what words the FBI used withher, but I know her reaction.
I know she was in tears,and she said they made it sound like
if I were to leave this building, I would never see my kid again.
They made me feel so cheap anddegrading and dirty for even being there

(51:05):
with David and the people in themidst of the siege. So you got
parents that have that believe they're nevergoing to see their kids again, you
know. And maybe it is aselfish thing, but when it comes down
to a mother and a child,that's that's a very strong dynamic. And
that's a lot of the reasons whypeople stayed in. And incidentally, the

(51:27):
kids were placed under what they wereplaced in the only area we had left
to go. Most of the kidswere at the back of the building,
in the concrete structure. They wereplaced under wet blankets. Now I've had
federal authorities say, well, theywere placed under the wet blankets, you
know, to make it look likeyou guys weren't committing suicide. I think
that's the most ridiculous thing I've everheard in my life. They had no

(51:47):
place to go. The back onApril nineteenth was cut off. The media
wasn't allowed back there for some mysteriousreason. According to the infrared videotape that's
on away Go the rules of engagement, and I cite to some my book,
several gunshots were going off at theback of the building the other tanks.
Now people want to ignore this,you know, people want to say

(52:07):
that I'm crazy and I'm some kindof conspiratorial nut for saying this. I've
seen the video. You can gorented at Blockbuster. We have two explosions
at the back of the building sixminutes before the fire begins. We also
have several rounds of fully automatic weapons. According to Alard, Edward Allard I
believe his name is, he wasone of the gentlemen that holds patents on

(52:30):
the infrared video technology says, thisis absolutely fully automatic weapons fire. Nothing
in nature makes this thermal signature.And you can see these little flashes going
off two different areas. And themost amazing thing to me is as the
fires building, you see the flashesback up. You see the flashes go
from from the forefront closer to thebuilding and start backing up as the fire

(52:51):
is increasing. I wish I weremaking it up, but I'm not.
It's there. Yes, sir,I'd have a question, and that is
that it seems to me that everyaction that the FBI took was directed at

(53:13):
the children. In other words,when they introduced CS into your Mount Carmel,
and this was discussed in the jointcongressional hearings. They targeted the children.
They targeted the children with the ideathat their mothers would try to save

(53:34):
them and rush out. They alsoknew that every adult had a gas mask,
but gas masks are not made forchildren because they don't work. Their
lungs are not strong enough. Anotherarea of targeting the children, I think
was the so called psychological ops programwhere they showed the bride lights and the

(53:55):
loud music and the other unusual sounds. They claimed that David Koresh was brutalizing,
In fact, beating quote, beatingthe children is what jane A Reno
told her. She was beating babies, was eating babies. And I think

(54:15):
all of us can understand that ifsomeone is susceptible to violence, then under
stress, he's likely to gauge inmore violence. So these psychological operations again
would target the babies and make thembe beaten more by mister Koresh. So

(54:37):
do you think that the FBI hadany concern for the children as they claimed?
They head not according to the actions. And you know that's such a
great point I'm so glad that youbrought that up during the course of the
fifty one days playing this music.I mean, you know, I'm a
pretty peaceful person, and there wasone time during the siege where it was

(54:59):
annoy annoying me. To the pointis, when you're tired, you put
in air plugs. You can sleep, you know, through just about anything.
I mean, it's amazing how thehuman spirit can adapt. You know,
we're very adaptable. Kids are sodouble. Kids are adaptable. But
it will definitely affect children more sothan it would adults. One of the
things that just is absolutely shocking tome is the fact that they would use

(55:21):
these psychops on the kids. Butmore importantly is people have to understand about
the cs gas that they use,the tear gas that they chose to use
internationally, and I've done a littleresearch on the subjects. Internationally, we
cannot use cs gas in wartime asbanned. However, there's no law stating
we can't use it against American citizens. According to the now Chemical Report on

(55:43):
cs gas, it says that csgas is a riot control agent that is
only to be used outdoors in anoutdoor riot control situation, never to be
used indoors, especially, it saysamongst women and children, especially children whose
respiratory tracts are not developed and couldkill them. Failure Analysis, who was
a scientific organization. They did areport on the cs gas in the form

(56:07):
the several of the throughout the courseof the six hours of April nineteen,
how much gas they put in thereIn some areas of the building they put
in cs gas that was four timesthe amount needed de tour a trained soldier,
let alone what that will do toa little baby boy. I don't
want to lose my next point.This cs gas is to me was one

(56:31):
of the most barbaric things you couldever experience. I mean, I can't
believe that they could use that.And joy Sparks, who was the individual
who was in charge of the stateinvestigation against Koresh and the child of the
beast issues had come out to theproperty. Was she Sheriff's department and question
you Jack carr Will the sheriff ofWaco. We had worked with law enforcement

(56:52):
in the past. We invited theATFI. We didn't go looking for them.
They made it sound like we werelooking for them, like we had
some plan. She said in aninterview that she urged the FBI not to
do the cs gas plan to waita mount on the seven CE. The
manuscript urged them and said, well, basically, you know, I should
I get my team ready, Andthey said, no, I don't worry
about it. One time. Don'tworry about it. You know what were

(57:15):
they planning? One time during thenegotiation, they were asking how many fire
extinguishers we had in there and dida report. He said, oh,
we have two fire extinguishers in thebuilding. And the FBI negotiator said,
well, it's about time you buysome fire insurance. Yea. This might
go figure and brings me up tomy next point real quick. Another interesting,

(57:40):
terrible tragedy that occurred occurred a fewmonths before our attack. And then,
of course is Randy Weaver and whathappened to his family in the middle
of Idaho, in the middle ofthe side of a mountain. And without
getting too detailed, I just wantyou to know the mentality of these people,
and this is what happened. Thisabsolutely is. It came out in
the in the trials for his hiscase. His son Samdy Sammy, thank

(58:06):
you, was shot. His dogstarted barking. They went down a Marshall
shot the dog. Sammy shot atthe marshal. He ran back and one
of the Marshalls shot and killed him. The next day, Randy Weaver put
his his dead son in the shednext to the house and was walking was
walking to the main building and FBIsniper Lon Tihoryuchi, who was one of

(58:30):
the only people that has been lefton the loss. We have a civil
case against the government. Everyone's allthe people were going after has been thrown
off except lontiori Ucci was a whowas a FBI sniper that was there that
day. Lontioryuci gets Vicky Weaver inhis sights. Now he starts opening up
on on on Kevin Harrison and Randyas they're running into the house. They

(58:51):
got the Vicky's got the door open, she's got her baby in her arms,
and Lantioryochi, from two hundred yardsaway with a high power scope shoots
from the face. She falls forwith the baby in her arms. Now,
in the trials, during that particularcase, it was asked, mister
Horriucci, didn't you know from twohundred yards away that this woman had a
baby in her in her arms?And he said no, I thought it

(59:12):
was a firearm, so I shother. Now, I've talked to snipers
that I've talked to people that havebeen in the military. Anyone here in
the military was in the military twohundred yards away. Do you know what
you're shooting with the high power scope? That's all I want to know.
Yes, you do. This gentleman'swaving his head. Yes, There's several
people from all over this country thatI've spoke to have told me the same
thing. He knew what he wasshooting. But here's the key. The

(59:34):
next day they had speaker system setup in that little debacle as well.
The next day the negotiators or someonefrom the FBI gun on the horn.
They said, Randy, what's VICKIgoing to make here for breakfast this morning?
I mean that that's unfathomable to me. To me that our federal authorities,
our servants, people that under constitutionhave taken it off to serve the

(59:55):
American public could do that to anybody. I don't care if he's a fascist
or a race it's certain rights.And this guys was never on trial.
I don't want to get too faroff. I just want you to realize
that this kind of stuff happened usall the time during the course of the
fifty one days, you know,I mean the FBI agents would moon us.
You know, the women would belooking out of the out of the
windows and they'd be mooning us andsticking their middle finger up at us.

(01:00:17):
Yeah, this is the federal government, Yes, sir uh, before the
siege, before all the troubles andthe siege began. Describe a typical day.
What did you do? Were youhappy there? What were some of
the dues and dons, rules andregulations before all the before all the troubles
began. Great question. In mybook a place called Waco. I spent

(01:00:45):
a lot of time on these issuesbecause humanly, you go through a lot
of mixed emotions, you know,you go a lot of the things that
were I questioned a lot of thethings that were going on in there,
but basically I understood one thing,you know. I mean, some of
the stuff that occurred there was apart of the plan, and I accepted
it. Generally, we would playmusic or build. We spent most of
our days building and beautifying the property. You know, we didn't do that

(01:01:07):
because we were planning and committing themass suicide, you know, we had
put in the tracks. We hadput it. We were building up the
house. We had built a poolfor ourselves, and most of the times
were spent working and in the eveningswe would study, had three square meals
and some of the women would prepareand we'd all come in knat together and
the studies usually occurred in the evening. That was your basic life. I

(01:01:28):
mean, there were periods of timewhere we would watch movies. Everything was
on occasion. There were times wheneveryone would have ice cream. There was
times and we would get burgers,you know, and everyone in the community
had had a burger. But basicallypeople stayed there. People were were what
they believe David Koresh was inspired.I believe David krush was inspired. And
basically we spent our lives learning thistruth because according to the truth, and

(01:01:49):
I do get into this very deeplyin the book, according to the Truth,
this group was going to be targetedand was going to be attacked.
You know, we had prepared forthat. At the same time, Korsh
did everything humanly to try to avoidthe situation. He also believed there was
another plan and that that plan couldgo forward with music and he could reach
the world that way, so it'skind of confusing, it's dualistic, and

(01:02:15):
that was one of the hard thingsin writing the book. It took me
several years to even conceive of writingthis book because I thought it was such
a complicated subject. I thought therewas no way I could explain my experience.
I still think to this day there'saspects of the truth that I don't
even get into. I do notcome I did not want to get into
David's scripture in this book because Idon't believe that that's my role or that

(01:02:35):
I'm inspired to do that. SoI'm trying to tell the story from my
experience without getting to the hardcore beliefof why we were there. And that's
what's very difficult for me in writingthis book. And you know, I
think it's something that can be researched. There are some of the Dividians that
have written down their version of theSeven Seals, and anyone that's interested can
look that up on websites. Icouldn't quote the site right now, but

(01:02:59):
I didn't feel it was my role. But what I did feel was that
you know, we were out therestudying, we were out there living,
and we'd bother no one for sixtyyears. You could go on to day,
could dub them all drop if youreally wanted to. Everyone's always free
to leave. That's part of yourfree moral agency as a person. I
mean generally, the group did thingstogether, and the group didn't really depart

(01:03:22):
from that. I'm considering that wewere one body. According to several scriptures,
if one person does something or doessomething that's against the basic rules of
the community, affects the entire community, and so living under that structure.
Yes it was a rigid, arigorous tructure, and yes it was a
very monastic lifestyle, but at thesame time, it's a lifestyle that everyone
chose to live, and I couldhave left at any time. But consciously,

(01:03:45):
in my head, I did notfeel that I would be doing the
right thing. I don't think thatI could have been left David to do
my own thing in life and feltthat I could look myself in the mirror.
And I've read several books on psychologyand social proof and and combating mind
control, and I s all kindsof different literature that's out there, you
know. I think that for me, I just made the decisions I had

(01:04:09):
to make in life that this wasI was put here for a reason,
to go through this experience for areason. You think, do you think
you'd still be there troubles? Thequestion was, I think I still be
there for the troubles haven't started.I can't. I don't know. I
think I might, but I alsothink maybe twenty years down the road,
I don't know if I could havecurbed my humanity that much. You know,

(01:04:31):
I'm not a saint. You know, I'm a sinner like the rest
of us. I think there werepeople there that were close to saneliness.
I can't ask that question. It'ssomething that was an experience that I took
day by day. Yes, SirAlex Jones, a local radio talk show
host, has been really keeping thisissue alive too over the long before this

(01:04:54):
latest revelations have been coming out.He's leading an effort right now to rebuild
the church on the property up there. Do you have anything to do with
that or are you planning on goingback? And who owns that property?
Now, great question, I'm gladyou brought that up. Someone that was
going to get into But the rebuildingof the church on the ground where all

(01:05:15):
this people died and and all theseatrocities took place. I think it's a
beautiful thing. And the fact thatso many Texans, due to Alex Jones
and to people that do care andthat do know that they relied to and
do want to know the truth,have come forward and not only donated their
materials and money to make this projecthappen, but they've donated their time.
They've come out on Sundays, andthey've helped to rebuild this church. We

(01:05:41):
can have a standing monument, asanctuary out there, not only for the
people to study, but as asymbol, a symbol that the human spirit
will endure and we are adaptable.And as long as you hold onto your
purpose in life or your site,you don't lose touch with that, with
what you consider to be God andwhat you consider to be right for you,
that you can overcome. You know, those people didn't die in vain.

(01:06:03):
And I think it's just so amazingto me, especially in Texas here,
because I mean, how much demonizationwas there here in this state during
the whole thing. I mean,I came out of there and I remember
seeing it from the grand jury andI felt mentally raped. The last thing
I wanted to do was stand beforeeighteen people that lived in Waco that looked
at me like I was the biggestfreak they ever saw in their life and

(01:06:25):
didn't believe a word I said.That was the most uncomfortable situation I've ever
I've been csgassed, and that wasa little more comfortable in the CS gas
frankly, so it's incredible that peoplehave come forward, come forward, and
every Sunday they go out there andbuild. It should be done the next
couple of months and if anyone thatwould like information on the building of the
structure, they can go to www. Dot InfoWars dot com to get that

(01:06:50):
information and also www. Rebuildthchurch dotcom. And that's one word, and
I just really appreciate it everything there, everyone's done. One of the goals
I have for my website, whichis a place called Waco dot com,
is to put the cs gas reportand put all this information the warrants on
there so people can read it fromthemselves. But also I just I should

(01:07:12):
have done this years ago, andfrankly, I was not proactive before.
It took me a lot of timeto go through everything that I had to
go through in this and then finallycome out on the point where I could
say, okay, let's take themon. You know, it's gone far
enough. My friends are in jail. I could be in jail, not
that I did anything wrong, butI could be in jail just for political
reasons. And I want someone outthere fighting for me. So what I
want to do is start a petitionto get the guys out of jail.

(01:07:36):
I mean, come on, people, you know we can let terrorists go
and free them for political reasons,but seven innocent people that are in jail
on the jury, you know,I'm sorry, mister establishment, mister Clinton,
mister FBI, whoever wants to criticizeme on this one. The jury

(01:07:56):
said if they had seen all theevidence that the judges oppressed from them,
everyone would be released. Everyone thatyou had. Your reform woman wants a
retrial, you know, people likeEdward alert Stone want a retrial. I
mean, it's time. These peopledo not deserve to be they're the wrong.
People are in jail, and youknow what, if these people have
to go on suffering and suffering andsuffering, then what a terrible, terrible

(01:08:17):
state of affairs we're in here inthis country. Right. Here's the way
we'll take this flat. Yes,sir. Here we were listening and using
the internet on this for some timewhen it was very active, and over
two hundred messages were posted on theboard, and some of the people were

(01:08:38):
pathetically trying to cling to the beliefsthat we had that this is a fair
and honest and nation of laws.It was unbelievable. My conclusion was that
the intent from the outset was tokill everyone. There is I have heard
nothing to dissuade me from that.There's a and Los Angeles rabbi said that

(01:09:01):
a soul shall be judged not onlyby what it says and does, but
by what it sees and condones bysilence. And though much of that has
gone. Thank you for being here. Did you have a question while you're
up? Do you thank you foryour car? It's beautiful. Can you
feel that the ATF had the planof literally putting everyone? The killing of

(01:09:28):
the certainly intended to kill the children. What you said about the docent of
CS the children could not have survivedeight consecutive hours of pumping gas into a
closed building. It's not possible thechildren were dead from that. Well,
what I think is, and you'rereferring to the FBI. I think that
the atf when they staged their raidand they had the helicopters firing into the

(01:09:50):
building and the agents coming and firing, I think that their goal was to
get crushed. I mean, Ithink that's why they had the helicopters.
Frankly, and would they targeted thearea they believed was his bedroom, you
know, they just because they didn'twant that, I mean, and that's
a great point. Koresh jogged infront of their house every day for two

(01:10:11):
weeks. He was in town allthe time, and the FBI when they
took over, they said, well, Kresh was isolated. He never came
out, and all of a sudden, people in Waco in the community said,
hey, I saw him at Chelsea'sclub two weeks ago. You know,
I saw he was in my storejust the other day, and he
jogged with about five or six ofthe guys. I did it on a
couple of occasions when I actually feltlike I wanted to try it again the

(01:10:31):
shape. I jogged in front oftheir house too, two weeks, right
in front of their undercover house everysingle day. They could have gotten not
only David Koresh, but our coregroup of the young men around, wouldn't
taking him right there. They neverwanted to do it peacefully. That's what
blows my mind. They I thinkthey wanted this dynamic entry. I think
that it's something that we see allthese cop shows, you know, we

(01:10:53):
see this, this dynamic entry,this force. We got to go in
and get these drug dealers. That'sthe point I wanted to make. That's
the point I wanted to make realquick. They got the helicopters through the
only way that they could use helicoptersagainst American citizens is under a loopola the
Dea law, where it states thatif you are manufacturing drugs, all of
a sudden, you can use militaryequipment against the evil drug dealers and go

(01:11:15):
in and get them. They saidthat we had a methin fetamine lab in
there, and they went to thegovernor and she okayed, governor and Richards
okay the helicopters to be used becausethey convinced her and they convinced the authorities
that there was a methin fetamine lab. David Kresh got people off drugs.
David Crish didn't take aspirin during theseat. She wouldn't take aspron He never
did drugs. They knew that henever did drugs, but they wanted to

(01:11:39):
get the helicopters, so why notlie. Let's lie, you know,
well, not only lie to theAmerican public. You know, hey,
you know they're sheep. We'll justlie to them. You know, they're
going to follow along with what wesay. But let's lie to the authorities.
We'll lie to the judge, We'lllie to the governor, We'll lie
to whoever we can to bring aboutthe end that we want. And that
end is very proud. It's veryarrogant, it's very what's the word I'm

(01:12:02):
looking for. It's very male violent, you know, and that's not what
I thought this country was about growingup, you know, I'll be frank.
I was raised with some of theatrocities that were going on in Chile
and Nicaragua and Panama. You know, anyone sees the Panama deception knows that
there was something more to what wasgoing on there, But the fact that

(01:12:23):
it happened here on the soil,it wasn't you know, the government going
on to other foreign lands and makingthis happen, or backing some rebel group
that's going in and committing mass murdersor backing the Indonesians went in and killed
the East to Moors, the EastTim Maurice people. That happened years ago,
years ago, you know, therewas a massacred. Not just happening
now. It happened several several yearsago. It took him in like Noam

(01:12:44):
Chomsky, to bring this out tothe world. It's just very it's very
frightening to me, you know.And now it's happening here in a soil.
And unfortunately, there's a very largegroup of Americans that will sit there
and they'll see it happen and golike, well, you know, the
people are probably bad. They're deservingwhat they're getting, and they don't even
understand what the forefathers built this constitution. Can I take one more? Yep,

(01:13:06):
yellous? I come okay. Didthe children have many schooling other than
like the Bibles? And yeah,they had homeschooling. There was actually a
couple teachers that lived there. Onewas Sherry Jewel, and she was a
teacher and she taught the kids,but was more impressively than the homeschooling.
And some of them did go toschool for quite some time, and then

(01:13:28):
they were taken out of school abouta year before everything happened, and pretty
much was consistently homeschooling. What impressedme must about these kids that the older
kids would take care of the youngerkids and would actually read books to them.
So the sharing in that community wasunbelievable. The fact that, like,
you know, a thirteen year oldgirl would sit there and read all
these little kids, and you know, they would just share different stories and

(01:13:49):
stuff. They It's like the kidseducated the other kids as well as the
adults that were in there. Soyes, there was absolutely excellent education for
the kids. It said, makea plight about the dynamic entry her.
Okay, it's the wavelet Mike,and okay, okay, this is my

(01:14:12):
favorite part. I could go onall night. The dynamic entry is an
interesting thing. On the one hand, BATF wanted to make a show type
of entry, But much more importantly, I think, is who provides the
justification for everything that happened? Tolegal authority and the provision of illegal authority

(01:14:35):
comes from the Office of US Attorney, a branch of the Justice Department,
and it was the Assistant US AttorneyWilliam Johnson, who participated every aspect,
every aspect of the event in Wacofrom beginning to the prosecution, and he

(01:14:58):
is the man who demanded. Hedemanded of the BATF that the entry be
one such that mister Koresh could notget rid of any of the end of
the evidence. He said, Iwon't prosecute it unless you do an entry
that doesn't give him a chance.That if you give him a chance to
dispose the evidence, I will notprosecute. So he gave the BATF the

(01:15:23):
authority, in my opinion, todo their so called dynamic entry. He
was behind it, and then ofcourse he was the one involved in that
affidavit. He helped prepare it withall its errors and misstatements. He gave
it to Judge Green, a formerprosecutor himself, and said, here,

(01:15:44):
here it is. The judge issupposed to look at it as a neutral
party. Instead he rubber stamped it. And Johnston was involved in every aspect
of it. In my opinion,if there's one single person most responsible for
the whole incident, it's William Johnston. One point I want to make to
that, and then we do gota close is also it's pretty amazing to

(01:16:06):
see the turnaround that Johnson has doneand you have to understand that when Mike
McNulty started to go into the evidencelocker, which brought this whole thing back
into the press again. When hestarted to do that, he started to
turn a lot of people around,like Lee Hancock of the Dallas Morning News,
who broke this. Now, LeeHancock was never ever favorable to us.

(01:16:27):
Of the Davidian, she wrote someof the most incredible pieces of that
just disgusted me while this is happening, and now she turned around. William
Johnson wrote a letter to Attorney GeneralJannerino and said, there's a lot you
don't know that we have found outthat I think the FBI and people are
hiding from you and covering from youthat you need to be aware about.

(01:16:47):
They pulled him off. He's nolonger working anymore because they say that they
want to use him for a witness, so they can't have him in that
capacity. So he's been pulled offof his official duties, basically lost his
job, if you will, well, because he made this aware to Jane
Arena, I mean, it's verystrange to me. So it's like the
higher ups, I mean, peoplethat were responsible for getting koresh have done

(01:17:11):
a lot of them have done inthe complete turnaround, and it's just amazing
to see people in power and peoplein authority, people with prestige coming forward
and doing this turnaround. I mean, it just shows how powerful that this
media structure is and that this governmentis in deceit and in taking you away
from what is really going on.And so on the one hand, yeah,

(01:17:32):
I think your point's valid, butI think that at this point,
I think mister Johnson's doing the rightthing, and I hope that more people
do with the right thing. Imean, there's one thing I can say.
I'll end with this. My viewof the Constitution. My view of
my studies of George Washington, JeffersonLincoln, and the document and inspired document

(01:17:59):
we live by called the Constitution,is that if you take an not I
don't care if you're a traffic cop, are you the president of the United
States of America. My belief isif you raise your hand and you put
your other hand on the Bible andyou'd take an oath to serve the American
public, that's what you are.You're a servant. If you're taken oath
to serve the American public, thenyou should be held by that oath,

(01:18:20):
and I think if you violate thatoath, then I think the punishment should
be severe, more severe than anaverage citizen who hasn't taken any oath that
does a crime, they go tojail. Right. Well, if we
don't hold our official authorities responsible,then we're going to have problems that we've
seen, Like in Oklahoma, thereare people that would in a nation of

(01:18:42):
two hundred and fifty million people,you got some fringes out there. You
got some people that don't understand what'sgoing on, some people that can't handle
their anger and they do insane things. And if the government does not be
truthful with us, if they donot hold the people that are responsible for
lying to us and responsible for shootingus and responsible for deceiving us, those
people are not held responsible, thenthere will be more people that aren't so

(01:19:08):
level headed that'll do terrible, terribleacts. And the problem is is the
government in the media, we'll blameit on constitutionalists, they'll blame it on
us. Radicals like David Thibodeau isout there speaking against the government. I
love this nation, you know,I think we've got the best form of
government on the face of the earth. But I know that we can make
it better. You know, thereshould be reason before there's any active force.

(01:19:31):
And if there isn't, then thenwhy am I here? Why are
we here? You know? Whydon't we still deceive ourselves and think we're
living by these principles? That's all. I just want justice, you know,
I'm not out for revenge. Iwant justice. There are people that
are walking around that are guilty oflying, of killing, of shooting,
of gassing, and there are peoplethat are in jail that are innocent.

(01:19:53):
And until the paradigm shifts, thenwe're going to have problems. And I
don't want my nation to have problemsanymore. Thanks for rush Shaving, I
have him good. Hm. Westand by the fire. You're tiny,

(01:20:24):
head in mind, you're five feetoff the ground. You raise some sholder,
the stars convey the lies, somefratchild in the night. In this
small man, in this small man, forever be forever be in this smament,

(01:20:57):
in this smallment, for river befor hy n face sygo is spird
song, Sada rush a song,Oh wit wo belong fadeing the what to

(01:21:25):
a memory, A picture from thewall. The moment. Fro said that
fall in this fall man, inthis fall forever be forever be in this

(01:21:46):
fall man, in this moment,fore be for h be. I don't

(01:22:28):
really want to think about it.Somewhat shop open this week. I don't
want to think about it. Ijust want to say, in this moment,

(01:22:50):
in this moment, in this moment, in this mom Rera Beigby,

(01:23:17):
you're listening to the Fact Hunter RadioNetwork. Just the Facts, Mammy,

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