Ep. 571: Latest News & Notes Around Carolina Basketball

In this edition of the podcast, Josh & Anthony go over the latest news & notes around the UNC program, including the contract details of new GM Jim Tanner, a preseason date with BYU being revealed, they react to an article ranking Roy Williams as the second best coach of the 2000s & more 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
The five hundred and seventy first edition of the Four
Corners podcast starts right now.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
This is the Four Corners Podcast.

Speaker 1 (00:14):
I'm the luckiest guy in the world. I've said that
to be in Chapel Hill, to be at the University
of North Carolina.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
We win fifty four fifty Please at trol a minute.

Speaker 1 (00:24):
What Trolda'll wait.

Speaker 2 (00:26):
With twenty seconds left to play, goes back to Michael
Jordan jumper from out on the left.

Speaker 1 (00:31):
Going go wait a worn it wordy five Dal, We're
going to win the national championship. Whoeber Front Course, Carolina, Hey,
danke clok time out, take that co pal take de
co poal on making a.

Speaker 2 (00:46):
They're out of time out.

Speaker 1 (00:48):
Fut court Williams on the drive gets it back out
ahead long outside, shut short, leave it.

Speaker 2 (00:55):
It's over.

Speaker 1 (00:56):
Carolina has won the most and I'll championship eighty nine
seventy two. And how about them tar Heels, they are
the national champion.

Speaker 2 (01:08):
How many a luckiest coach in the world.

Speaker 1 (01:11):
I'll maakes for three too strong on the shot. That's it.
Victorials are the national datum champion.

Speaker 2 (01:21):
Carolina has been tested and tried and been proven successful
through all the years. And the way that we will
play will be the Carolina way. Davis has not only
titus career high in points but also in three pointers.
Oh my gosh, a step back, will this one goes
Holy Spouts thirty nine for RJ.

Speaker 1 (01:42):
Davis. It's like an A and one big store out here.

Speaker 2 (01:46):
Here are your hosts, Josh Marlowe and Anthony Pagnada.

Speaker 1 (01:50):
Hello and welcome. Man's another live edition of the Four
Corners podcast. We are powered by Carolina Electrical Services. Josh
and Anthony. Here you guys on a Sunday night, a
news and notes edition of the podcast coming your way.
Have been a bunch of news and notes obviously around
the program that we're going to talk about also have

(02:13):
a little discussion topic worked in as well, one that
I think y'all will find interesting. Interested to get some
feedback from you guys. And you know, we're going through
the what if series that'll be back again later this week.
We'll be in the nineteen sixties and maybe do the
nineteen seventies as well, so we'll still get you to
that offseason series. But last week acc kickoff in town.

(02:37):
That meant we were pretty busy on the football side
of things. But excited to talk to some Carolina basketball
here with you guys. On a Sunday night, we start
every edition of the Pod, as we always do with
the Pod Thought of the Day, we go to Stillman White,
former Carolina basketball player, a favorite of ours as Carolina

(02:57):
fans growing up. We always love still and White's interactions
on the bench. Also a guy that actually started an
Elite eight game for Carolina back in twenty twelve. That
pot thought is quote I learned pretty quickly that this
isn't all about me and what I can do for myself,
but what I can do for other people. Once I
learned that, it made life more enjoyable. The greatest joy

(03:20):
we find in life is making other people happy. End quote.
Hubert Davis was an assistant while still Man White was
in the Carolina basketball program at two different times. To me,
this is as quote as close to a Hubertism as
I think we have found a former player that played

(03:42):
for him while he was an assistant. Be applied to
what you want Hubert Davis to have his players say
since he's become the head coach, and it's very evident
that that's what Stillman White reflected. Still Man White was
a guy that was all about others, was all about
serving his teammates and becoming the best role player he
could be, the best reserve guard he could be. You know,

(04:04):
got a lot of his work done in practice and
made his biggest impact in practice. Was a great part
of those runs to the Final four and twenty sixteen
and whatnot. As I mentioned, started the twenty twelve lead
a game against Kansas when Kendall Marshall was out with
the injury. And so I think that this is a
quote that I think Hubert Davis would like to relate

(04:27):
to his current team going into this season, mainly because
if this group is going to be good and achieve
what we want, what we expect, and what we demand,
it's going to have to be a group that plays
for one another forty times out of the year. Just
because while there is some high end talent on this roster,

(04:48):
there isn't a bunch of NBA talent. You know, there's
not a bunch of NBA. There's not a lot of
stars that exist. And so if everyone could buy into
Stillman White's quote here where one you know, once he
learned about doing stuff for others, he became happy. I
think that could really apply to this year's team. It
could be maybe a message that that could be told
in the preseason about playing for one another, because if

(05:10):
we're going to have the type of success we want to,
this will have to do that more often than not.

Speaker 2 (05:15):
Yeah, I mean we talked about it, you know, earlier
this offseason that we thought that one of the things
that we could really see with this group is a
more balanced group than in years past, where you know,
the last couple of years really been leaning on RJ.
Davis to sort of carry this team. And I think
you know, you look at the success that Carolina had

(05:35):
in twenty twenty three, Yeah, they were leaning on RJ.
Davis to carry the team, but they had a lot
of help around them. And then you look at last year.
I think coming into the year, the mindset was we
have to play through RJ. Davis, and I think that
just stuck with a lot of the guys on the roster.
Not saying that that's RJ's fault, but I think that
was really the mindset that was stuck around this team.

(05:57):
We're now going into this year, you know, we don't
know who the leading scorer is gonna be. We've had
that conversation multiple times about who we think it's gonna be.
There's potential for it to be a true freshman this
year in Caleb Wilson. There's plenty of other guys that
we look at on this team as well, Kayan Evans,
Luca Bogabas, you know, Set Tremble, all these guys, we

(06:18):
look at them and think there's a possibility that it
could be their team this year that they're leading. But
we are looking for a much more balanced team across
the board, and I think that's that's kind of what
you see there from Stillman White is in that quote.
That's the type of mindset that you're gonna have to
take if you're gonna be one of those types of
teams that maybe doesn't have that superstar player but has

(06:41):
a lot more balanced throughout the lineup. So hopefully this
is something that you know, Hubert Davis is sort of
hammering into these guys in the offseason, is that, hey,
we need to be a more balanced group. We need
to be a group that leans on each other more
throughout the year. Can really you know, go to but
just about anybody on this team to be able to
beat opponents as opposed to focusing on one guy having

(07:03):
to do everything, and I think that's the mindset that
hopefully they're taking into this season. And right now, I mean,
one of those big piece is Luca Bogabox. We don't
even know if he's going to be there, so they
have to take that mindset going into the year that hey,
even if we don't have one of our biggest pieces,
we still feel like we have enough balance on this
roster where we're going to be able to succeed.

Speaker 1 (07:24):
And if you follow Carolina Basketball on social media, you're
seeing some pictures videos from their their time to the
Outer Banks. This has become, i think an annual trip
for the program, and it's maybe not something that they
would have done pre portal, pre NIL stuff, These team
bonding activities always have taken place, but now there is

(07:45):
a high insensitive importance because your roster changes over year
after year and you're basically you're forcing chemistry, You're forcing
guys to come together because you just don't have the
benefit of these these guys getting to know each other.
You had, you know, before the transfer portal became what
the Transfer portal became, or NIL was such a big

(08:06):
deal where we have seen at divide locker rooms, maybe
not at Carolina, but at different programs around the country
here in recent in recent years, and so you know,
that's that's that's also that's also a part of it. Also,
while teams that maybe fit what this Carolina team is,

(08:26):
where there's not a lot of stars and maybe they
don't have the high end talent to make a Final
four team or win a national championship, but teams that
are family that play for one another. When you're a fan,
these are the teams that you you remember just as
much as teams that won a national championship. Like, you know,

(08:47):
we we love the twenty sixteen team that made the
national title game. We love the twenty seventeen team that
won the national championship. We talked about the twenty nineteen
team a lot because of how fun that team was,
because that was the group that loved one another, that
played for one another. So even if this team doesn't,
you know, do some of the things we want them
to do on the court, these are the types of

(09:09):
teams that kind of make you remember why you fell
in love with basketball, why you fell in love with Carolina,
and they end up becoming a team that whenever you're
like us and you've got a seventeen year old brother
that you're in that you're introducing the sport to or
hopefully one day and we become fathers and we have
our kids on our laps and we're watching the game,
and we could tell that that team reminds us of

(09:30):
this team. I think this group is capable of having
that connection to us as a fan base. And that's
something that you know that I really talk about because
there's a connection that I still have as a fan
despite being twenty eight years old. Let's get into the
news and notes portion of tonight's podcast. We'll start. The
latest bit of news that came out of this was
on Friday, and that was the contract information around new

(09:53):
basketball GM Jim Tanner. Of course, he's the first GM
and Carolina basketball history, and Carolina has invested a lot
in him and in that position overall from now to
the fact that basketball and football both have one that
they're paying a substantial amount of money towards. He signed
a five year contract at a base salary of eight

(10:14):
hundred and fifty thousand dollars. As you can imagine, multiple
bonuses were included. He can increase his salary by one
hundred thousand dollars if Carolina makes the NS Double A
tournament or signs a four or five star recruiting prospect,
and then he has bonuses that Laura applied to Carolina's
performance in the NC DOUBLEA tournament if they make the

(10:37):
tournament and advance in the tournament. There are plenty of
bonuses that are attached to Carolina's performance in March Madness.
And if he were to be fired, Carolina will pay out,
you know, the rest of his contract over a two
year period. But I think the first thing you look
at here is the length of the contract and that's

(10:59):
five years. And you know what's different something that we've
kind of talked about is, you know, you see gms
and pro sports, every professional sport there is a general
manager and usually that GM is tied to the head coach,
where usually if one goes nine times out of ten,

(11:20):
the other one is going there with them. The rare
occasion one out last of the other, but it's pretty
commonplace where we are now as a professional sports climate.
If you're firing one, you're firing another. We all know
what this year, we believe in tales for Hubert Davis
and what he has to do to solidify himself as

(11:41):
Carolina's head coach moving forward. I think this only gets
accelerated with the fact that Bubba Cunningham is stepping down
at the end of you know, June July. Next year
Steve Newmark takes over. There's always a question about the
football and the basketball coach when a new a when
a new ad arrives, because that is the per se,

(12:02):
that's not the higher that they would have made. When
you look at this contract and you see the financial
commitment Carolina has made to Jim Tanner, who was not
a GM in the NBA before coming down to the
college level. What stands out to you about the financial
commitment and how much should we tie into the fact
that there's a chance in a situation where he's in

(12:26):
Chapel Hill a lot longer than Hubert Davis's.

Speaker 2 (12:28):
Well, I mean that was always going to happen. I
mean the fact that they made the higher in the
year that you know, it looks like we're going to
have a guy on the hot seat for this year
in Hubert Davis. You knew that there was going to
be a chance that he was going to outlast Hubert Davis.
When it's all said and done, This is a higher

(12:48):
that's made for the future of the program, not for
the future of Hubert Davis. They're hoping that it's for
the future of Hubert Davis and that Hubert is going
to be able to stick around. But ultimately, Jim Tanner
is independent from Hubert. This is going to be him
making his own decisions. He's going to be the guy
that's putting together this roster with the help of Hubert
or with the help of a new coach. So to me,

(13:09):
it's not shocking at all that these two are not
tied together. That to me was the least surprising thing
about this. The amount of money. I mean, look, this
is big boy basketball. This is what you're going to
have to pay for a GM that is going to
have any sort of significant background. And yes, he doesn't
have any background as a GM at the NBA level,
he doesn't have any background as a GM at the

(13:30):
college level. But at the same time, he's a guy
that's dealt with these types of players before being an agent.
So I believe that he is worth the amount of
money that you're giving him. I think it makes sense
how his contract is structured. And I know a lot
of people are going to look at it and say, well,
it doesn't really make sense to us, because we don't
really understand why if you get a four star prospect

(13:52):
you should be rewarded for that. Remember that some of
the key guys that Carolina has landed in previous recruiting classes.
You go back to the twenty nineteen recruiting class that
Carolina landed, That's where RJ. Davis and those guys were.
Those were guys that you know, were four star prospects,
but were some of the best four star prospects in

(14:14):
the entire country. They deserve to be guys that you
get credit for. So I do think that, you know,
the four stars some of the some of the stuff.
You know, people will say, well, there are guys that
are four stars that are almost you know, ranked outside
of the top one hundred. Yeah, that makes a little
bit of sense. Those are maybe guys that you don't
necessarily think they should be getting the money for. But

(14:35):
when it comes to the guys and excuse me, I
got the recruiting class wrong. They were in the twenty
twenty recruiting class. That's where you had RJ who was
a four star. You had, you know, a couple other
guys who were four stars as well, like some of
those guys. Yeah, you deserve credit for landing those guys,
And I think that makes that that makes a little
bit of sense why they structured the contract that way,

(14:57):
especially because hey, you know, you look at the nature
of college basketball right now, not a lot of guys
get these five star rankings, not as many as some
of the other sports that you see, and so it's
hard sometimes to recruit these five stars. The good news
is is that Carolina is still recruiting these five stars.
I don't expect that to go away anytime soon, and

(15:18):
I don't think it's lowering the standard for Carolina basketball
that Jim Tanner is a guy that's going to get
a bonus for landing a four star. Like some people
were panicking and saying last night, well.

Speaker 1 (15:30):
I think if there's one thing to be I guess
critical of how the contract is structured, the recruiting is
one thing. Bonuses for making thea tournament. I think that's
something that you if you want to be critical, I
can understand that because making the tournament is not something
that really should be celebrated at Carolina. It's a demand

(15:53):
and an expectation. But I think this is part of it.
Whenever you've been a bubble team three of the last
four year and there is always this type of language
that does exist from general managers contracts at the pro level,
where it's just the baseline of expectation for whatever the

(16:13):
situation at GM is in these gms are getting bonuses.
It happens with the best gms in football, basketball, baseball, hockey,
to whatever it is. You make the playoffs, you get
a bonus. You win a playoff game or a playoff round,
you get a bonus. And so I think that's kind
of where you see that come into play. Is this
is him understanding, Hey, this is kind of how it

(16:34):
works at the pro level. Y'all are moving to a
pro model, So let's structure it from a payment perspective
as a as what you see in the pros. So,
but it's hard for me to look at the length
of the contract, in the financial commitment of the contract
and not be satisfied as a Carolina fan because there

(16:57):
was just so much concern about wood Carolina adapt to
the climate of college sports and where they are heading
and I think we've seen this department respond in a
big way, and that means financially and the money has
been made available. If you go read the article that
Inside Carolina wrote about his contract detail is becoming public,

(17:20):
there's basically a part in there where there is language
in the contract where if Tanner and or Hubert Davis
feels like he wants or needs more money to be
allocated for personnel, staffing, whatever it is, that financial commitment
will be expect or will be met. And so Caroline

(17:40):
I think has put its money where its mouth is.
Where they talk about being a premier program, they talk
about wanting to be the best of the best and
adapting to where the sport is going. The best way
to do that is to allocate as much money as possible.
And I think you've seen a pretty strong response since
this past year ended the way that it ended, because

(18:03):
I think it's fair to say that just you know,
it's more than just two fans that are frustrated, Like
if those of us that don't have a lot of
financial investment are frustrated, how about the big boosters that
are paying for all the things that are being made possible.
What they're seeing with the results, and I think this
is an administration from an athletic and then just from
Carolina as a whole that prides itself and competing at

(18:26):
the highest level and not seeing that on a year
and year our basis. There's probably some embarrassment there because
they did probably didn't envision this slip in the program
after year one where Carolina, you know, was an offensive
rebound away from winning a national championship. I don't want
to do this, but this is part of where we're

(18:47):
at as a program. And that's kind of speculate about
life maybe without Hubert Davis. When you see Jim Tanner's
contract extension or in his contract details and the financial
commitment that Carolina has made to him individually, if Carolina
were to part ways with Hubert Davis after this year

(19:08):
or at some point during Jim Sanner's current contract, how
much involvement, how big of a role do you think
he would play in the next head coach of Carolina basketball,
maybe as opposed to Roy Williams, who hands selected, hand
picked Chuber Davis to be the guy that succeeded him
upon his retirement.

Speaker 2 (19:29):
It would really depend ultimately on what they are looking
to go out and get Are they trying to stick
within the family, Because if they are, and they want
to give Roy Williams another shot to go out and
prove that he knows these coaches and that he knows
the guy that should run this program, then I don't
think that Jim Tanner is really going to be all
that involved. And I think that's possible. I think there

(19:50):
is an avenue where that is the direction that Carolina
ultimately takes. But do I think it's guaranteed.

Speaker 1 (19:57):
No.

Speaker 2 (19:58):
I think that's what they got to figure out. Going
outside of the family. Then Jim Tanner is going to
be very involved in that decision. I believe that he's
going to be one of the guys that's going to
head that up, if not the guy that is heading
that up alongside of new athletic director Steve Newmark. And see,
this is the thing that's a little bit different now,
is that Newmark. Yes, he's a guy that has ties

(20:18):
to Chapel Hill, he grew up in that area, but
he doesn't have ties to the university. So is he
going to be a guy that's going to want to
stick with someone in the family. Bubba Cunningham was a
guy that didn't have ties to the university when he
came there, but by the time that he was going
to make the decision, you really couldn't do anything but
let Roy Williams make that decision this time around. I

(20:41):
don't know if that's going to be the case with
Steve Newmark. I don't know if he's going to look
at it, especially if the team, you know, if that
decision is something that could be made within the next
couple of years with the program potentially being headed for
the SEC, if that's something that Steve Newmark is going
to want to oversee. I think now more than ever,
we are looking at the opportunity that Carolina could go

(21:05):
outside the family for their next head coach. And I
know there will be some people in the comments that
will say that is exactly what Carolina needs to do.
You know our positions on that. We both believe that
Carolina should not go outside the family, not after just
one failed higher. We believe that it should be left
to a guy like Roy Williams to be able to
make that decision again as to who the tar heel

(21:29):
hire is, or at least he has a pretty strong
opinion or portion of the decision that goes in his favor.
So I think that that is certainly something that's going
to be interesting to monitor here over the next few
months as Carolina goes throughout this season, because Yeah, if
Hubert Davis is on the precipice of being fired, it

(21:50):
really does make you wonder now more than ever what
direction they're looking to go in, and that will determine
how much Jim Tanner's involved.

Speaker 1 (21:58):
I think it helps the fact that Jim Tanner is
a Carolina guy, so I think his role in involvement
would to naturally want to stick with with Carolina family members.
And I think it's important to remember or to distinguish
the difference between Hubert Davis's vision of the Carolina family

(22:20):
and Roy Williams and even Dean Smith's vision of the
Carolina family. Hubert Davis is a lot more close minded,
where in his eyes, you can only be a Carolina
guy if you went to school and played at Carolina.
That's not the way that Roy Williams and even Dean
Smith made you feel about Carolina. A bunch of Roy
Williams assistants that came over from Kansas. By the time

(22:41):
that they either retired or left to become head coaches.
Guess how we thought about those guys. They were Carolina guys.
You know, I just had a guy, Bill Robinson on
a guy who has never coached at Carolina is a
nia of a coach but works Carolina basketball camp. But
meet is a definition of a Carolina guy. And so

(23:04):
I think that there could be a situation where Carolina
is going maybe outside the family, but that's outside the
family in terms of the way Hubert Davis views it
as opposed to the way that you know, the godfather
Dean Smith kind of uws it. I'll say this about
where I stand and where I feel Steve Doumark. I

(23:26):
think his biggest job and his biggest role as athletic
director will be to raise and generate as much money
as possible. I think the basketball decisions will be left
to the basketball people, and that is Roy Williams until
Roy Williams is no longer on this earth. I may
be wrong, but I that's just kind of the way

(23:46):
that I view the situation. That's the way that I
view it should be. You know, the best way to
avoid all that is for Hubert Davis to win, and
and for those of you that are still not sold
on him. You'll to avoid these conversations because, believe it
or not, we get negative feedback when we have these
conversations when we speculate about the future. Now, look, I

(24:09):
get it's difficult. You think I want to do it.
I don't want to do it, but it's it's our
responsibility to do so. But those of you that aren't
on the fence, but you don't want to dream about
a day where there's a non Carolina guy on the
bench running the program, then good thing. Then gives Hubert
Davis your support, give the team your support, and make
it to a point and where even if he doesn't

(24:31):
win at the highest level, you would still feel uncomfortable
seeing a non Carolina guy run the program.

Speaker 2 (24:37):
Well, see, here's the problem. Most people have given up
on that. They don't care about that anymore. They say
that the only way that Carolina is going to be
able to win is to go outside the family and
make a higher I mean, we got a message right here,
U NC has to go outside the family next time.
This from Donnie Milton. By the way, thank you for
tuning in and listening. Donnie. He says, who are you

(24:58):
going to get inside the family that will be good
no one. I mean, you go back to Dean Smith,
you go back to really just Dean Smith, not Roy Williams.
Roy Williams was a known commodity when they got him,
but I mean even Hubert Davis, you know, early on
in his career, had success. I mean they were relatively unknowns.
But I mean Dean Smith is really the reason why

(25:20):
you look and to potentially make another higher within the family.
I would look towards Wes Miller, and to me, it's
based off of the fact that just because it didn't
work one time doesn't mean that it's guaranteed not to
work another time. That's what I think most people are
afraid of. And yeah, Wes Miller, I've wanted him to
win more at Cincinnati. I just don't think that they

(25:42):
have the money that they need to put into that
program now. In the Big Twelve, which is maybe the
second best conference in all of college basketball right now,
the way that they've been playing over the last few years,
I just think it's been tough sledding. But I do
believe that he has the qualities of being a good
head coach. Ultimately, though, I'm with you if you are

(26:03):
someone that cares about this program. You should want Hubert
Davis to succeed. You should not want to have to
go out and hire another coach, even if it's someone
that comes from outside the family, because who's to say
that that person is guaranteed to have success here? As
of right now, Carolina is still in the ACC. How
many guys are leaving their current SEC programs where they

(26:25):
are getting an influx of money that we're not going
to see for the ACC in terms of revenue. How
many are leaving those situations to come to the ACC.
I don't think there's a lot of them. Even if
Carolina is the best job in the sport like we believe,
I don't know how many guys in the SEC are
leaving their jobs to come to Carolina if you are

(26:46):
looking at them and thinking that they're the solution. And
I've already said it, I don't love a lot of
those guys, even just as coaches. I don't really like.
I don't care about the success that Natos has had
in Natoates is an ass he is and he should
not be on the sidelines for Carolina. Ever, if he is,
I will it will be hard for me to root
for the program the same way that I've rooted for others.

(27:09):
I will, but I will not like him as a
coach for a long, long time. Same thing with Jay Wright.
I would not want Jay Wright on our sidelines. You
could say it's petty that, oh, you need to get
over the loss in twenty sixteen. I will never get
over that loss. I hate that man to this day.
So yeah, I think the right solution is for Hubert

(27:29):
Davis to come in here to win games this season,
and I think he's gonna be capable of doing it.
With the roster that they have. I think he is
going to be capable of having success. But it's still
something that we have to talk about, especially with the
looking like Jim Tanner is going to be here no
matter what ends up happening with Hubert Davis along the way.

Speaker 1 (27:49):
Yeah, I'll say this, then we'll move on to our
next item. You guys that have been with us from
the start know how I feel and how I felt
about Wes Miller. That was the guy I advocated for
to get the job when the job came open. He's
underachieved at Cincinnati, He's under delivered. That's a top twenty
twenty five program in the sport. We look at history, tradition,

(28:12):
their ability to generate, you know, great coaches over the
years get great talent in that program. Not making the
tournament in four years at Cincinnati is a failure and
it's kind of surprising. Honestly, he has not been fired.
You look what Hubert Davis has done, and there's no
denying it's been a roller coaster. We've been high, we've
been lowed, we've been somewhere in between. You don't achieve

(28:35):
the things he's achieved by accident. You don't. And look,
I know people will points at Kevin Ali winning the
one off national title at Yukon and then that program
falling off. A lot of that, Okay, you could make
an argument for that. I don't think Yukon leaving the
Big East for the American helped. There was a dip
in interest, there was a dip in funding because so

(28:56):
much of it that program's history and tradition of success
was tied to the Big East. But Hubert Davis has
had a follow up season two that, like Kevin Oley,
never had. He won an acc regular season title, he
was a one seed in the tournament. He's made two
Sweet sixteens. That doesn't happen by accident. And so now,
granted he's still got to become more consistent and you

(29:18):
got to be more consistently hotter than you've been low here,
but he's proven he can do it. It's just about
proving you can do it on a consistent basis. And
that's what makes the Dean Smiths, the Roy Williams, the
Mike Chesheski's of the world so great because the excellence
that they produced year over year, they made it look

(29:38):
a whole lot easier than it really was. My hope,
my belief, and by this point it's my prayer. It's
the biggest prayer I pray every Sunday in church. God,
let Hubert Davis win basketball games at a high level.
My prayer is that hopefully that starts this year at
a much more consistent level like we've been used to
over our lifetime as Carolina basketball fans. Moving on another

(30:02):
piece of news that was made official last week. We
knew Carolina was going to play BYU at some point
in the preseason, just did not know when. But we
have that date now. That game will take place on Friday,
October twenty ninth, before Carolina host to Winston Salem State
on Friday, October twenty fourth. They host Winston Salem State

(30:25):
on October twenty ninth. That game will be played in
Salt Lake City, so not even provo. It'll be a
neutral site preseason exhibition, the first time Carolina will have
played in Salt Lake City since doing so in the
nineteen eighty eight NCAA tournament. According to the write up
on Goat Heels, there was not any TV time that

(30:45):
was made available last year Carolina played Memphis that was
a on campus preseason exhibition, but I believe ESPN you
televised that game. Considering it's Carolina, Considering BYU is going
to be a top twenty five team with the number
one recruit coming out of this past high school class,
you would imagine that the closer we get to it,

(31:07):
there will be a network of some sort that will
pick the game up. But I think this will be
a fun test, a unique test, and kind of like Memphis,
where you know, there was some stuff in that Memphis
game that we if we really would have of course
R J. Davis didn't play, which made it a lot harder,

(31:28):
I guess you would say to evaluate. But there were
some things that happened in that game that were kind
of a telltale sign of what would become of the
upcoming year. Like you you saw kay Tyson really struggle
with length and physicality, and there were some little just
you know, little hints of what the struggles would would
ultimately demise the team this past year. And the same

(31:53):
thing will be said about this BYU game. And I
think it's been one of the best moves college basketball
has made is allowing these teams to play in a
second preseason exhibition, assuming that one of the exhibitions go
to charity. Don't know what charity it's gonna benefit. You
would imagine it'll be one that BYU selects because they're

(32:13):
technically the host. Last year, the Memphis one went to
the Saint Jude's Hospital. That's a great cause to support.
But this is something that I think it's a big
win for college basketball because it gets the sport on
television at a time where we're in full blown college
football NFL mold. But it gives these teams a chance
to learn a lot about one another. So I know

(32:34):
it's gonna be the hard football season. It's a great
football year for Carolina and whatever NFL team it is
you support. But when they go to Provo on October
twenty ninth, that game may not matter in terms of
the record books, but we'll learn a lot about what
this upcoming season can be. And I can tell you
right now, I look forward to watching, writing, and podcasting

(32:56):
about that game once it's done.

Speaker 2 (32:57):
Oh of course. I mean, this is the greatest thing
that they've done is they've taken what used to be
these secret scrimmages against these really high caliber teams and
they've turned it into a way to raise money. They've
turned it into a way to get get it televised
and everything like that. And now we get to see

(33:18):
these scrimmages. So I mean, you look at this BYU team.
They're gonna test Carolina, no questions asked. I mean, this
is a team that's bringing back three of their five
starters from a year ago. They did lose, you know,
a couple of guys to the transfer portal, but went
out got Robert Wright, who's a really good player at
a Baylor really took a step towards the end of

(33:39):
last year and could be one of the better point
guards in college basketball, especially coming out of the transfer
portal this year. And then there's the number one overall
player in the class, aj De Banta, who committed to
them and is pretty much gonna be there for one year.
But he's gonna be one of the stars in college

(33:59):
backasketball that everybody's talking about because there's a good chance
he's gonna go number one overall in next year's NBA draft.
So this will be a big test for Carolina. This
will be a great opportunity to learn about what this team,
you know, is gonna look like this year, who is
going to step up for them? And you know, last year,

(34:20):
I think there were some things that we saw on
that game that we knew were a little bit of
fools gold like set Trimble scoring the way that he
did because we knew that with the RJ. Davis not
on the floor, it would look a little different. Will
who knows, maybe this year if he comes out and
performs really well, not saying he even puts up the
numbers that he did in that scrimmage against Memphis, but
that's something that could extend into the season because there

(34:42):
is no RJ. Davis here. I'd like to see this
team at full strength during that time. Because I think
that they really need to be for us to learn
all that we need to learn about them, and I
think that if they do go into that scrimmage full strength,
you'll get a really good look at who exactly is
going to to be playing big roles for Carolina this season.

(35:03):
I'm also really interested devansa gonna be the freshman that
everybody's talking about out there on the floor. But don't
sleep on Caleb Wilson to really go off and have
a big game in this one, because he's not going
to be talked about nearly as much as Debanza is
during all of this. He's a guy that deserves a
lot of the hype based off of what we have

(35:23):
seen in some of the scrimmages and some of the
videos that have come out of him dunking over guys.
I mean, this dude is an explosive player, and I
think he's really gonna show out. This will be his
first time where he gets a chance to show that,
so I would expect in this matchup you'll see him
perform pretty well as well.

Speaker 1 (35:41):
Yeah, the preseason buzz coming out of the summer is
starting to pick up for Caleb Wilson. He's talked a
big game about the type of player he's gonna be
for Carolina. It seems like he's starting to back it
up with what he've seen, what we've seen in practice.
The closer and closer, I think we get to the
actual season, the hype around Caleb Wilson will start to
pick up. Let's get to our last topic of discussion

(36:03):
for tonight's edition of the podcast where those of you
live with us right now, we appreciate you joining us
on a Sunday night, and we ask you to stick
with us because once we get done with this podcast,
we'll take a quick break, towel off, we'll rehydrate. We'll
be back with a football edition of the pod tonight
as well. That just a busy night for the Heel
Tough Blog. On the podcast side of things, we work

(36:26):
in sports talk radio and we work in a market
that in the summertime, with the baseball team not a
lot to talk about, which means we talk about a
lot of lists about what these people write about, and
it could be the silliest of lists to the most
serious of lists. It's also the year of our lower
twenty twenty five, the quarter mark of the century, which

(36:48):
means you've seen a lot of quarter century mark lists
come out over the summer. The Athletic put one out
about the best twenty five coaches of the last twenty
five years. Andy Williams made this list, and we're going
to talk about it right here. We'll go through the
top five because that's where Roy Williams finds himself. So

(37:08):
five through one, according to the Athletic, Number five is
current Saint john Said coach Rick Patino, who, over the
last twenty five years as coach Louisville IONA and now
Saint John's, has won a national championship, been through three
final fours, has won seven regular season conference titles, nine
conference tournament titles, made the tournament seventeen times, and racked

(37:32):
up five hundred and thirty one wins twenty five point
three wins per season. Number four on that list is
Jay Wright. He's won two national championships, made four final fours,
nine conference regular season titles, six conference tournament titles, seventeen
NCAA tournament appearances, five and forty six wins twenty four

(37:55):
point eight wins per season. Number three on the list
is coach k national championships, five final fours, five regular
season tournament, regular season championships, five conference championship tournament titles,
made twenty NCAA tournaments, racked up six hundred and thirty
one wins twenty eight point seven wins per season. Second

(38:19):
on the list. That's where you find our guy, Roy Williams,
who won three national championships, made seven final fours, had
eleven conference regular season tournament championships, three conference tournament titles,
nineteen NCAA tournament appearances, won five and seventy four games,
with factors out to twenty seven point three wins per season.

(38:44):
Number one on the list, Bill Self, who won just
two national championships, made just four final fours, but won
eighteen conference regular season titles, eleven conference tournament titles, made
twenty four in tournaments, and has won seven and two
games twenty eight point one wins per season. Didn't want

(39:07):
to extend some thoughts and prayers to Bill Self, who
was hospitalized earlier this week. Hope that he gets back
on the sidelines in a big way because college basketball
is certainly better when he's on the sidelines. When you
see that ranking, you see that list, I don't think
it's surprising to see Roy Williams come in number two.

(39:29):
I think the bigger surprise might be the fact that
he's ranked a head of coach K but ranked behind
Bill self in totality. What do you make of Old
Roy being considered the second best coach in college basketball
over the last twenty five years according to our friends
over at the Athletic.

Speaker 2 (39:50):
Well, certainly, I think your notions about Bill self are
I share in those. We want him to be as
healthy as possible, hope that he's able to get back
out there as soon as this year. But we know
that the most important thing is that he takes care
of himself, and that was horrible news to hear in
the middle of last week. But when it comes to

(40:12):
the comparisons of him to both coach Williams and coach K,
I mean, look, man, Roy, you've got the national championship advantage,
You've got the regular season titles that he has at
least being in shouting distance of Bill self. Because here's

(40:32):
the thing about the Big Twelve, and the reason why
they are giving him the advantage is because of the
regular season titles and because of the conference tournament titles.
The Big Twelve for the longest time was one of
the easiest conferences in college basketball, who are the biggest
challengers to Kansas each and every year. They've never been consistent.

(40:53):
There's never been a consistent team that's always been challenging
Kansas until recent years where you've started to see some
teams become more consistent, like Iowa State. You didn't have
what the ACC had early in the two thousands, where
it was the best conference in all of college basketball,
head and shoulders above everybody else. There was never a

(41:14):
conversation about who had the best basketball conference. You can
still to this day have conversations about who has the
best football conference. During the early two thousands, there was
no contest for the ACC. It was as deep of
a league as a god in terms of the coaches
that were there. It was as difficult of a league
to win as any out there. And Roy Williams was

(41:35):
the guy that was consistently winning the regular season titles
and then going to the NCAA Tournament and winning national championships,
getting to final fours, the thing that the sport is
built on. That's why I believe he should be a
top this list. But they are giving the advantage to
Bill self because he won in a conference that was

(41:56):
much easier. And the other thing is is unfortunately had ahead.
You know, Roy Williams just could not beat Bill self.
That was the unfortunate part was he was not able
to get it done against Bill self. I think that's
probably something else that they hold against him. But if
I'm being honest in my opinion, and it shouldn't shock anybody,
I believe that Roy Williams is the best coach of

(42:17):
the two thousands. And you can see it by the
number of rings that's on his finger and the number
of final fours that he was able to bring Carolina to.

Speaker 1 (42:25):
So here's the rite up from the Athletic about Roy
Williams in his number two ranking. Quote, Williams put a
juggernaut at Kansas, and while he was a beast of
the regular season in the nineteen nineties at KU, he
was finally starting to equally be as dominant in march
in the early two thousands. Williams made back to back
final fours in his final two seasons, and Lawrence then

(42:47):
took a corp that missed the Installa Tournament in two
thousand and three and won the national title in a
second season at North Carolina. Williams is tired for the
most titles this century and as a Chris Jenkins buzzer
beater away from four. Williams had a great eye for
recruiting to a system, and there were a few things
in basketball more aesthetically pleasing than the Carolina break. He

(43:09):
just as he just edges coach k because he reached
two more final fours and more than doubled him on
conference titles this century. End quote. The thing, the issue
that I have when it comes to Bill self is
Roy out does him in terms of national championships won
and final fours.

Speaker 2 (43:29):
What matters?

Speaker 1 (43:30):
You know? He has one more national title and he
has three more final fours. One of the arguments I
always make about Roy Williams and where he stands in
terms of greatest Carolina basketball coaches all time, because it's
not a popular opinion that people want to hear. I
think he's the greatest coach in Carolina basketball history. But

(43:52):
when do you put him on the Mount Rushmore of
Carolina or of college basketball coaches like Dick Vitel does
more so than Bill Sell. Well, every time Roy Williams
was at least supposed to make the Final four. Every
year but one at Carolina. He did so. Two thousand
and five, preseason Number one made the final four. Two

(44:14):
thousand and eight made the final four. Two thousand and nine,
preseason number one makes the final four. Twenty sixteen, preseason
number one makes the final four. Twenty seventeen, a number
one seed in the USBLA Tournament goes back to the
final four, wins a national championship. The only year he

(44:37):
did not achieve what he was supposed to achieve was
twenty twelve. Preseason Number one. You lose to Kansas in
the Elite eight. What was missing in that game Carolina's
point guard. Carolina's point guard under Roy Williams was the
most important player individually on the roster and compared to

(44:58):
every other roster in the sport because the way that
Carolina played under Roy Williams, as great as Tyler Hansborough was,
they don't win a national championship without Tyle Loston becoming
the greatest point guard in the sport that year. As
great as Sean May was. They don't win that national
title without Raymond Felton becoming the best point guard and

(45:18):
college basketball in twenty seventeen. As great as Kennedy Meeks
was who was the MP in the final four? It
was Joel Berry, like the point guard was single handily
tied to the success that Carolinas had. You take away
Kendall Marshall. Carolina making the Elite eight was still impressive,
and people forget that game was tied at sixty seven,

(45:40):
sixty seven with two minutes to go. Yeah, Kansas ran
away down the end. Carolina quite literally ran out of gas.
But how many times did you know Bill self? And
it's mentioned in his ride up that you can you
can argue about the lack of success in March. You're
talking about a handful of number one one seeds that

(46:01):
never made the final four. How many times have we
identified going into selection Sunday, Kansas had the best team
in the country, had the best path to the final four,
should win a national championship, and doesn't happen. That doesn't
happen with Roy Williams at Carolina. It happened at Kansas
nineteen ninety eight, the biggest coaching failure of his career.

(46:22):
He goes thirty four and two, he doesn't make it
to the final four. But when he got to Carolina,
when Old Roy was supposed to be on the biggest
age in college basketball. He was there, and oh, by
the way, he still achieved a lot of greatness well
in NCAA investigation hung over the plot of his program.
How many other coaches are navigating a seven year long
investigation and winning games at the level Carolina won at

(46:46):
I don't know how many. And so you can sit
here and say that I'm looking at this through Carolina
Blue lenses, But I'm more apt to say, and it's
maybe damning to say, I think I'd have a much
easier time accepting him being ranked behind coach K then
I do Bill self. I know Bill Self owned him
head to head and if that counts were something great.

(47:08):
Although when you don't play in the same conference and
you're just meaning on in neutral site games in the tournament,
I think it's really hard to hold that over him.
But I don't I don't understand the logic of ranking
a coach who has won less national championships and win
to and been to less final fours over a coach

(47:31):
who has tied for the most national titles went to
the most final fours in the last twenty five years.
And as you mentioned, like in college basketball, the pinnacle, like, yes,
you want to win the national championship. The bar is
final fours, that's the holy grail. He went there seven
freaking times. Man seven is more than three by a

(47:53):
significant margin. I don't understand how he comes in second
behind himself.

Speaker 2 (47:58):
Yeah, well, I mean the thing is is that again,
I think you just look at it and what they're
probably gonna say if you read the write up, is
the amount of conference tournament titles that he has or
the conference regular season titles that he has. I think
that's probably gonna be the difference. But here's the thing.
You won eighteen regular season tournament titles. You ended up

(48:18):
in the final four four times. That's it. You dominated
when it came to the regular season, but you were
a perennial choker when it came to the offseason. And
I know that with that second national championship, they've sort
of shed that mantra. When it's come to Bill self,
they say, yah, you can no longer call him a choker.
I still think he's one of the biggest choking head

(48:40):
coaches when it comes to the NCAA tournament. When he
gets there. There are plenty of years where Kansas should
be in the final four, should be competing for a
national championship and they don't end up making it there.
You could say that it's because of the players, but
after a while, when it becomes consistent, it's because of
the coach. Now, he's gotten over the hump a couple
of times here now and the one you know, back

(49:03):
in twenty twenty two, I think is certainly the one
that everybody is going to point to and say, that's
the one that he can hang his hat on, and
that's what puts him in this conversation. That's fine if
he's in the conversation, but I'm with you, he should
be third on this list because you look at the
guys that consistently took their teams to the final four

(49:23):
when they needed to. And I can't believe I'm making
the argument for him, but it's Coach K and it's
Roy Williams and Roy Williams. You know, you look at
the talent that Roy had, It wasn't nearly as much
as the talent that was on the other side for
Coach K when it comes to comparing those two. And
that's the reason why he should get the advantage. He
went to more final fours. He won the same amount

(49:45):
of national championships with less talent because he was a
guy that didn't necessarily adjust. People were complaining about him
not adjusting to the one and done era, but it
worked out for Carolina and it's still got them the
national championships, the same amount of national champion ships that
Coach K had, And if you look at it, you
compare him how they how they did, not only early

(50:07):
in the two thousands, but as you continue throughout the
twenty tens. That's the longevity and the success of Roy
williams career, I think also stands up there as opposed
to Coach K, who you know, we look at it
after twenty ten, he only has that one national championship.
Things have dropped off a little bit for him, and
it never really dropped off for Roy Williams no matter

(50:28):
what era.

Speaker 1 (50:29):
I think it's fair if you want to go head
to head with Roy Williams and Coach K, if you
want to hold the head to head record against. But
that's what's odd about this list is Roy Williams had
a losing record against Mike Russky, losing record, but he
still he still rates above him because he outperformed him in.

Speaker 2 (50:48):
March when it matters, because that matters more. I'm sorry,
that matters more than head to head.

Speaker 1 (50:54):
Yes, because like we talk about this like all the time,
right when we get to Carolina Duke Week, Carolina Duke Day,
I do think there's a different emotional investment in that
game because there's just so much that goes into it
where when we lose it, it sucks. And when you're in
the building for the first time on a senior night

(51:14):
for one of your favorite players and you watch them lose,
it sucks. It's not the most important game of the
year because it's not as meaningful and impactful as the
games once you get into the NCAA tournament. But Roy
Williams outperformed coach k in March over his twenty five years.
He's outperformed Bill self over the twenty five years. The
point I thought you made during your argument against Bill

(51:38):
self was the most correct is the way that we
talk and think about the Big twelve to day was
not the Big twelve in the mid to early late
two thousands. It just wasn't okay. And I'll tell you
this as a straight up fan of college basketball, like
I beat my chest. I'm doctor Quad's at the station.

(51:58):
I say I watch more college backasketball than anybody on
the planet not named John Rostein. I can't prove it,
but I say it. I love what the Big twelve
is right now. It hasn't always been this good, It
hasn't always been this deep the ACC is today. What
the Big twelve was when Bill self was winning year

(52:18):
after year and was usually having the conference wrapped up
in mid to late February. Whereas for the longest time,
while Carolina was winning a lot of ACC regular season titles,
they were having to do so while beating Duke in
the final game of the regular season, whether that game
be played in Chapel Hill, whether it be in Durham.
But you also had some other programs that came along

(52:41):
the way that competed at a high level. Twenty nine
to twenty ten Maryland that got us close to maybe
winning a national title or feeling a national program since
they won a title in the early two thousands. What
about Virginia and what Tony Bennett did once he arrived
in Charlottesville that became a perennial national power. Year in
year route you have the arrival of Florida State, the

(53:02):
new blood of the sport that you know, for a
while there was a consistent top twenty five team was
going to make and the Insulay Tournament and advance him
to the tournament. And so I know it's hard for
us to say this because we are Carolina guys and
we're Roy guys. But to me, I don't quite see

(53:24):
their argument. I'll say this, and then we'll full wrap.
I could swallow him being branked behind coach K a
lot easier than him being ranked behind Bill self, because
at least K has just as many national championships. And
the last time I checked, I thought, that's what we
played for, That's what we thought. That's what I thought. Matter. Nonetheless,

(53:44):
still fun, still cool seeing Roy still be talked about
in the way that he gets talked about. It's my hope,
it's my prayer that when we're doing this list in
twenty and fifty that not only is Roy Williams still
high up on it, but Hubert Davis as high up
on that list as well. For all the games he's won,
all the nationals titles won, and all the final fours.

(54:07):
He's taking care of a lot of basketball too. But
We'll have to wait and see. There are more lists
like this that the Athletic and other college basketball platforms
have done. We will incorporate those throughout the rest of
the offseason, separate from the what if series, So be
going to look out for those. Just a fun, unique
way for us to generate from some college basketball content

(54:29):
here in the offseason. Two closing notes and then we'll
get out of here. Give a round of applause for
our guy RJ Davis. He signed an exhibiting contract with
the Lakers following the conclusion of the NBA Summer League.
I'll say this as an RJ guy kind of maybe
surprised he was able to get an exhibiting contract because

(54:50):
playing time in the Summer League from whenever I felt
like I would tune in to watch him wasn't as
consistent as you would have liked it to be. But
knowing the player that he is, his basketball character, the
competitor that he is, you knew he was going to
find an NBA home somewhere, and it's great to see
him in an organization like the Lakers. And who knows

(55:11):
when Lebron forces him and his son to a new destination,
maybe RJ could be the running mate to Luka Doncic
that you know, Lebron James quite simply will never.

Speaker 2 (55:20):
Be the last one, I think, honestly, yes.

Speaker 1 (55:25):
And then the last bit of news of some recruiting.
Twenty twenty six four star prospect Bryce and Howard, the
son of former NBA player Josh Howard, will be on
campus this September the fifth through the seventh, so Carolina
offered him in mid to late June. They've landed an
official visit, the second visit on all of his tour.

(55:46):
He starts at Texas A and M. He'll wrap up
in Tennessee by the end of October, but Carolina has
second on the list. Will not be in town for
Labor Day, one of the big recruiting weekends we think
is going to be for Carolina basketball around the football
opener against TCU on Labor Day night, but he will
be on campus the following weekend.

Speaker 2 (56:06):
Big deal.

Speaker 1 (56:06):
I think. For right now, Carolina schedule as many vice
visits as possible, positioning yourself to really bring this twenty
twenty six class into focus as we get closer and
closer to the start of not only the college basketball season,
but the high school season as well. With that, guys,
that is going to wrap up this edition of the show.
In the meantime, we'll direct you, guys to the website.

(56:28):
You see it down there at the bottom of your
screenheeltoughblog dot com. We're in full preseason mode for Carolina football.
Position previews are already out and being distributed. You have
quarterback and running back in the tight end rooms all
being written and posted for you, guys. You can go
and check those out. More of those to come. We
get the ACC preseason polling votes later this week and

(56:52):
Anthony will have you covered on that front as well,
as we're gonna start getting you ready for the most
anticipated season I believe in Carolina football history with Bill
Belichick there on the sidelines. Have the article up today
about Bryson Howard. Any news, any notes around the basketball program.
You know I have you covered as we always do.
We encourage you to go to the site every day

(57:13):
for the latest and the best covers of Carolina basketball,
Tarheel Football. As for the podcast, you guys know where
to find us. Every major podcasting platform. Simply search the
Four Corners podcast and will pop up there. We encourage
you guys' rate review and subscribe that a way you
don't miss any editions of the show. Cut the remainder
of the basketball off season, including the what If series,

(57:34):
which returns with the nineteen sixties sometime later this week.
With that, guys, it is wing to wrap up this
edition of the show. One last reminder. If you're live
with us now, stay tuned. We'll be back live shortly
with the football edition of the podcast, talking about a
potential move to the SEC. So you want to be
black for that. We'll be here shortly doing that one

(57:54):
as well. But in the meantime, want to thank you
guys for listening. Want to thank Anthony for hosting with
me as always got our heels. Guys, it just doesn't
get any sweet in the mat