Robert Jay Lifton
SURVIVING OUR CATASTROPHESResilience and Renewal from Hiroshima to the COVID-19 Pandemic
Chris Carosa
www.HamburgerDreams.com
Derrick Darby
A Realistic Blacktopia
https://global.oup.com/academic/product/a-realistic-blacktopia-9780197622124?cc=us&lang=en&
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Don't you always want to be thebest you can be. The Frankie Boyer
Show it's more than a lifestyle show. It's a show about living in today's
world. I think something is happening. Frankie enthusiastically brings an amazing, eclectic
mix to the airwaves. One ofthe reasons she's earned legions of loyal fans
is very simple. When you listento The Frankie Boyer Show, you just
(00:22):
never know what's going to happen.So listen for yourself. Here is Frankie
Boyer, and welcome. It isso nice to have you with this right
here on the Frankie Boyer Show,joining me today. And such an important,
such an important new book by anextraordinary man, and a career that
(00:49):
has just been amazing because Robert JayLifton, who is now ninety seven,
yes you heard me correctly, ninetyseven years young, is a psychiatrist and
a pioneer in the field of psychohistory, and he has written over twenty books,
(01:11):
including many seminal works in the field, such as the National Book Award
winning Death in Life Survivors of Hiroshima. He's also a Los Angeles Times book
winning author with the Nazi Doctors NationalBook Award nominated Home from the War,
(01:38):
as well as the Climate Swerve LosingReality. And his newest book is called
Surviving Our Catastrophes, and it isa book that draws on historical examples of
survivor power, but not just fromthe horrific five years that we've experienced Jin
(02:00):
Maui or Hiroshima or the unimaginable holocaust. He's talking about COVID nineteen and what
that pandemic has done in the aftermathof that catastrophe. And I welcome you
to the program, Robert Jay Lifton. So nice to have you with us
(02:24):
today. I'm glad to be withyou as someone who has been writing about
this for a very long time.What do you what is it about us
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as a country, as a nationwhen it comes to catastrophes. What are
some of the traits that we have. Well, first, the most threatening
trait and the most disturbing trait isto deny the catastrophe itself. We have
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before us a number of catastrophes,including nuclear and climates, but also the
threat to democracy and the COVID nineteenpandemic. If you deny the significance of
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the COVID nineteen pandemic, as wasthe case with Trump and Trumps and even
the therapeutic value of the vaccines forits then it's difficult, indeed to hope
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with that catastrophe because divivors there canbe survivors of a catastrophe that isn't itself
recognized as such, and such dividedpeople. But there are such division in
this country right now. And well, I think I don't want to get
(04:21):
into politics, because this show isnot about politics, and I don't I
don't go down that road. Butwhat I want to just share with you
is that I have noticed that sinceCOVID people are having more mental health issues
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than ever before. There has beenall kinds of talk about the loneliness epidemic
which is going on right now aswell, and I'd love for you to
talk about some of those things aswell. Yes, well, let me
put it this way. With COVID, there are two kinds of survivors.
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One is one consists of the immediatesurvivors, people who have had it and
recovered from it, or have hadfamily members or people very close to them
who have had it and recovered fromit. These are immediate COVID survivors with
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the cheering experience of the threat ofCOVID, and the other group is the
rest of us who are threatened bythe COVID pandemic and as variations that keep
occurring. We are the distant survivors, but we are survivors none who has
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because we fear OVID, and withgood reason. It's a sanitary pandemic,
and it can be and has beendeadly in very large numbers. But we
take steps to avoid it and strugglewith it because it threatens us with what
(06:28):
one can call death anxiety. Thepandemic is associated with death, and the
rest of us in seeking to avoidit, whether by moving to different places,
changing our lives as you're suggesting,altering how we live, and struggling
(06:53):
with an effort to understand the COVIDpandemic. With all that, we also
are survivors, but distant survivors.We don't think of ourselves off in that
way because we are distant rather thanimmediate survivors. And in a way,
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the immediate survivors are forming groups inwhich they're insisting that the rest of us
take up to what COVID is andrecognize that we're all survivors of it and
to bring closer immediate and distant survivors. And for that purpose, there are
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groups that form from immediate survivors withnames like Survivor Corps, or Marked by
COVID, or COVID Survivor for Change, or Young Widows and Widowers of COVID,
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or Body Politic. All these groupsmake clear to us that COVID is
a threatening experience that we are strugglingto survive. Absolutely, let me go
back in history. We just celebratedtwenty two years from nine to eleven,
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twenty two years ago, and itis when you when we think back of
those of that time, it's it'sjust still unimaginable, unimaginable. Yes,
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talk talk to us about how weget through these difficult times, and I
can't even imagine how some of themost articulate authors and brilliant people that survived
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the camps, that survived the Holocaust, how do they do it? How
tell me about survivors, how dothey? How do they do this?
Robert? How do they survive likethis and not only survive but thrive such
terrific What can happen is that immediatesurvivors form in tense groups with names like
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the ones I just mentioned, andin those groups they seek to bring about
a transformation from the helpless to thelife enhancing survivor. Hold on one second,
(10:07):
we need to take a quick break. We will be back in just
a moment. Surviving Our Catastrophes andit is a new book by Robert J.
Lyfton Resilience and Renewal from Hiroshima tothe COVID nineteen pandemic. This amazing
psychiatrist and one of the world's mostmost gifted, gifted authors of How We
(10:39):
Do Survive is with us today.Ninety seven years young is his age ninety
seven? Amazing, isn't it.We'll be right back, Frankie Boers,
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And welcome back. It is FrankieBoyer. And you know I have to
say, Robert, that I'm inr of you and your history and your
life and your awards and all thatyou have experienced. And your new book
is called Surviving Our Catastrophes. Whydid you want to write this book at
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the stage in your life, RobertJ. Lifton, Because at this stage
in my life I began to feelthat my writings over the years and decades
have related to this question and Iwanted to put them together in a sustained
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argument or this process of survivor renewal. And I came to realize that the
simple matter of recognizing catastrophes and thenthat transformation of the survivor from helper's victim
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to life giving agent of change isthe crucial transformation that is involved. And
I had referred in bits and piecesto this kind of transformation, but never
in a sustained argument, with backingfrom considerable research which which articulates this kind
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of transformation. And I also cameto recognize that this very transformation is the
key, because when one experiences extremetrauma, one can close down or open
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out. And if you close down, that's being overcome by psychic numbing,
as I call psychic numbing, whichis simply the diminished capacity or inclination to
feel. You either close down oropen out. And as survivors open out,
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and they have to do so electivelyfrom the impetus of these immediate survivors,
then the experience gets transmitted to thewhole society, and the society is
changed by it because people are lookingat the immediate role of survivors in the
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present and the kind of legacy thatthey leave for us. And that's the
situation that exists now. And itwas a situation I wanted to articulate and
make clear because I thought it wasso relevant for our situation now. I
asked you about the survivors. Howwhat is it about being tortured and surviving
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the most horrific of times and comingout of it? Are there some that
aren't? Is it just the fittestsurvival of the fittest? Is there something
more? Is there something it need? Is there something we can learn well?
Survivors, of course vary, andin a way they're always in a
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struggle between closing down and opening out. They they have a mark of death,
so to speak, and that's whythey are survivors. And it's a
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combination of their own capacity and acollective process that begins to take shape as
leaders emerge from among them and untoarticulate. These emergent leaders as they called,
come to articulate what the survivor hasbeen through, and in that way
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they can form a elective force inthe service of more life and overcoming death
anxiety. So it's a combination offacts, but it depends upon a collective
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process among survivors, and so wesee, yeah, yeah, I understand
what you're sharing with us. Ijust have before we leave you, and
I just we need to know fromsuch a brilliant mind and the works that
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you've been doing, what about thekids today and this epidemic of mental health?
How how are we going to getthrough this? Robert Well, it's
doctor, it's extreme goals. Andthere's an although one one doesn't look at
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this is not a political matter thatyou're talking about when you bring up mental
health. There's an interaction between themental mental state and the struggle for healing
and the politics of the situation.Because survivors and the rest of us in
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this struggle with OVID nineteen pandemic needvarious collective efforts on the part of others
to share and that helps the mentalstate. Similarly, some of them will
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need actual therapy, which can helpin a way the political process. So
there's an interaction between the psychological andthe political and all. This is part
of what I call the psychohistorical approach, in which you looked at immediate experience
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and at the same time at thehistory behind and contributing and effecting, and
as part of that experience. Sofrom a psychohistorical standpoint, in that way,
we have to look at these survivorsmental state and its interaction with the
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political process. As someone who hasbeen looking at the history of survival.
What's the good news? Is theresome good news about all of this?
Well, there is good news inthe groups that I mentioned before that immediate
survivors are forming, because those groupshave already and will continue to influence society.
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And I think more and more people, even among distance surviving. It
is like the rest of us arerecognizing that we are experienced something on the
order of death anxiety. We don'tcall of that, but that's what it
amounts to. So this is goodnews in that the process is being recognized.
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I'm so sorry, doctor, weare almost out of time and this
has just been so important to haveyou with us. I appreciate everything that
you're sharing with us today and thework that you've done and the chronicling of
surviving. And congratulations on your newbook and we all will be picking it
(19:41):
up, Doctor Robert J. LiftonNational Book Award Winner Surviving Our Catastrophes,
Resilience and Renewal. Thank you somuch, doctor, Thank you. We'll
take a quick break and being rightback. It's Frank youso and welcome back
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at his Frankie Boyer and I justthis next guest. Let me just tell
you he is absolutely one of themost knowledgeable people when it comes to hamburgers
because he is a Hamburger historian.No, I'm not kidding. I am
not kidding. So I'm doing thissegment even though I am a vegetarian myself,
(20:42):
but I think I think it's interestingand fascinating the backstory about hamburgers.
And he's a Yale University graduate,an award winning writer contributor to Forbes.
But he does love his burgers somuch that he took years to research the
(21:04):
complete history of the iconic hamburger.And he is with us today and the
author of Hamburger Dreams. How classiccrime solving techniques help crack the case of
America's greatest culinary mystery. Chris Kurosa, welcome, Hey, thanks for having
(21:27):
me. Frank you. So Ihave to ask you. I was just
referencing something the other day. Doyou remember, and I'm showing my age
when McDonald's actually put the number ofburgers that they had served. Oh yeah,
(21:48):
oh yeah, and then it gottwo big, so they just said
billions and billions and left it atthat. Yeah. Yeah, but you
are saying, we as American arewe eat ninety this fifty billion billion?
That's right with the b fifty billionburgers each year? Is that? Is
(22:14):
that possible? Is that true?That's what they Yeah, it's a lot
of cows, that certainly is.So what is Is there one state that
loves burgers more than another state oris it a pretty equal opportunity across across
from coast to coast. Oh?I think it's pretty much a universal food.
(22:37):
Everybody likes it, thinks. Lookat look at the number of hamburger
stands that are available competing hamburger stands, not just national chains but regional and
local hamburger places. Everybody eats hamburgers. Yeah, yeah, most everybody,
I would think, Yeah, exceptfor US vegetarians, all right. Yeah,
(23:00):
and even the hamburger joints are nowoffering vegan and plant based options as
well, just so you know theyreally are. Oh yeah, there's there's
literally, if you could think ofit, they could make a burger out
of it, not just veganburger,but they can put special things on the
(23:22):
burger, and in fact, thething that's coming up is one of the
most popular additions to burgers is thecheeseburger. September eighteenth is National Cheeseburger Day,
and I don't know why they've pickedthat day, but it's kind of
interesting and ironic that they do.But the idea of a cheeseburger is really
what fascinates people. But there's alot of myths surrounding it, including who
(23:48):
invented it. I don't know ifif you're familiar with some of the stories,
but there's a story out of Pasadena, California that's probably the most popular
one. Some point in the midnineteen twenties, Lionel Sternburger puts cheese on
a cheeseburger or on a hamburger,and he didn't call it a cheeseburger.
(24:08):
He called it a cheese hamburger.Kind of kind of clunky. But a
guy supposedly in nineteen thirty two inKentucky, sorry, nineteen thirty four in
Kentucky, Charles kayleeen he was theone who came up with the name cheeseburger.
But in nineteen thirty five, aguy by the name of Louis blast
at the Humpty Dumpty Drive in inDenver, Colorado, supposedly trade marks the
(24:33):
term cheeseburger, but you know what, the word cheeseburger was already in the
lexicon as early as the nineteen thirties. Nineteen thirty one, thirty two,
there were advertisements in Sullivanan, SouthernCalifornia, and Kentucky using the word cheeseburger,
and it's spread throughout the country.In New Jersey locked down through the
South. There's even a menu fromnineteen twenty eight which uses the word cheese
(25:00):
burger. So that the idea ofcheeseburger being invented by whoever claims it is
really not substantiated solidly by the historicalfacts. It even goes one step further.
In eighteen ninety four, the ChicagoTribune ran a story about roadside stands
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and do you know that you couldget a Swiss cheese and hamburger for ten
cents. It didn't call it acheeseburger, but it was cheese and a
hamburger. So this goes back reallyalmost to the time when hamburgers were initially
invented. Yeah, yeah, AndI can tell you right now that you
weren't paying nineteen dollars for a sideof French fries like you are today.
(25:45):
And there are local restaurants in myneck of the woods. Snow kidding,
because this morning we were walking Iwas walking the dog in One of my
neighbors that works over on this side, he lives in seat was telling me
he was at the New Saint Regisand the side of French fries was so
outright. He couldn't believe the priceon the menu. He couldn't believe it
(26:08):
for French fries. He said,where are they getting their French fries?
But Burger Gordon Hemsley's Burger Burger jointopened up right here at the Canopy Hotel
in Boston, doing extremely well,and he's charging an absolute fortune for a
(26:32):
hamburger. But every single person whoI have spoken to has said it's well
worth it. Well, i'll gowith that. I've never been there,
so I'll trust your judgment on there. Yeah, they say it's it's they're
really outstanding. He uses the mostamazing meat. What chain uses a better
(26:52):
quality meat? Can you give usthat? Can you give us any inside
tips about where we should go ifwe're going to get it? A burger.
Well, I'm not so much aculinary expert as I am a historian,
and I know that different change usesme differently, and they each advertise
how they do it differently. Andreally, in the end, it's going
(27:15):
to be your personal preference on whichone you end up going with. Yeah,
I'm sure it is. I'm sureit is. As you were researching
for your book and all of thework, how did this whole thing,
by the way, start out?How did you become the hamburger dreams guy?
Really? Quite by accident. Iwas in college senior year, I
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had to write the history of mytown where I grew up in Buffalo,
and one of the articles that Ihad did not make it into the paper,
by the way, but one ofthe articles mentioned that the hamburger was
invented at the Erie County Fair,and I was very excited. I used
to work at the Erie County Fairwhen I lived there, and I ever
heard of the story. So Iran down told the earliest person or first
(28:03):
person I saw, Hey, guesswhat the hamburger was invented in Buffalo,
And he said, no, itwasn't. It was invented right here in
New Haven. And he probably tookme to Louise Lunch where I had a
hamburger there, and that was reallymy first introduction to the multiple stories.
It wasn't until years later when Iwrote another book, and this was a
chapter in that book about the historyof the Western New York region. And
(28:26):
as I did my book tour,this was one of the most popular parts
of the presentation that I made.So I did an entire book on it.
And you've become the hamburger history expert. And I have to ask you,
how many hamburgers do you eat ina week? Probably one or two
(28:51):
when I have a hamburger. It'snot every week though, I usually have
two hamburgers though. Okay, soyou're not really into every every day hamburger,
like there are some people that eateat them every day. Now,
I try to mix things up.That's a good thing. That's a really
good thing. Well, and I'msure you realize that where are the most
(29:18):
Can you tell us is there onepart of the country that's more gourmet with
their hamburgers? Well, I thinkyou probably go to the coasts and you'll
find that you'll get these craftburgers asa very popular menu item. Now it's
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now extended into the interior of thecountry. But really that sort of gourmet
hamburger or gourmet burger or burger variationon a theme. It really starts at
these on the coasts and then worksit way. It's way inward. But
now you can go almost anywhere andget you know, go to place that
(30:00):
it's you Kraftburger. It's just likepizza. You know, pizza used to
be pretty much the same all overthe place, but then they invented this
thing called Kraft Pizza. Or wouldfight. Yeah, now it's everywhere.
Well, this was really fun.Thank you so much. Hamburger historian himself
Chris Carosa, author of Hamburger Dreamsand the best website is Hamburger Dreams dot
(30:26):
com, or you could just lookup the book on Amazon. Whatever's easy.
Okay, thanks for being with ustoday. We'll take a quick break
and be right back. I'm FrankieBoiler and welcome back. It is Frankie
(31:12):
Moyer and I thought it would beimportant to talk about why we must unite
to fight. I know it soundsabsolutely crazy, but Professor Derek Darby is
with us. A realistic black Topiais the name of his book. Why
we must unite to fight. AndProfessor, welcome to the program. You're
(31:37):
a distinguished professor philosophy at Rutgers University, and you discovered your passion for philosophy
growing up in the Queensbridge public housingprojects in New York City. And you
write about rights and inequality and democracy. You've been profiled in the Atlantic and
(31:59):
published in the New York Times,and you co host a pod called Quest
and the author of the Color ofMind why the origins of the achievement gap
matter for justice? And it's apleasure to have you with us. Well,
(32:20):
thank you so much for having meon your show, Frankie, on
this Valentine's Day. I still appreciateit. And tell me a little bit
about how your background molded you toto write this book, A realistic Black
Topia. Well, let me tellyou, Frankie. I grew up,
(32:43):
as as you pointed out, inNew York City and the largest public housing
project actually in the United States,Queensbridge, which is also a very famous
housing project, having produced some veryprominent hip hop artists including Non Oh,
Yes, Yes, and I andFrankie. I grew up I was very
young, and I realized at anearly age that I wasn't going to be
(33:06):
a rapper. I wasn't going tobe a bad basketball player, a boxer,
a football player. I wasn't goingto be any kind of athlete in
fact, or a musician. Andat the time, these were all things
that a lot of kids hope wouldbasically pull them out of the projects and
into, you know, into thebig wide world to be successful and to
(33:28):
move up the ladder. But Ididn't have any of those talents, Frankie,
And for me, it turned outthat the one thing I was really
good at and I loved was school. But you know, that was sometimes
talenting because people look at you likeyou were a nerd because you like to
read books. And so for me, at an early age, I said,
(33:50):
no, I'm really good at school. I love these books, and
I embraced it. And as akid, I was always interested in asking
big questions like why is why thatI know it then, but that was
basically the sign and I was aphilosopher because philosophers like to ask big,
challenging questions and to pursue answers tothem, and so that was the foundation
that really explained why I got inthe philosophy, because I sort of discovered
(34:14):
my passion for it as a kid, and I realized that that was education
through philosophy was going to be myticket out of the projects. Boy,
did you ever huh? Did Iever? You know? And you certainly
have grateful for a mother that Ihad who was fairly serious when it came
(34:35):
to school. Frankie, I wasthe oldest of three. I had a
lot of responsibility at a young agein the house. My mother put a
priority on education and doing good inschool and didn't settled for me bringing home
anything less than an A If Igot that's awesome. That's why you got
into I mean, that's that's whereyou got into Colgate. I mean you
(34:59):
had to have that kind of aleteller record to get into that school.
Absolutely, Frankie. I went tohigh school in Manhattan, Martin Luther King
Junior High School, which is behindLincoln Center, and I had a wonderful
guidance counselor named Barry Lieberman. Andwhen I got to my senior year,
(35:19):
he said, you know, Derek, you you need to consider a small
liberal arts school because you would getreally hands on training with great professors,
and I think you would really benefitfrom having close contact with professors, and
he recommended that I apply to callGame. I didn't know about COPE,
and when I got in, hesaid, you absolutely have to go.
That's one of the best liberal artsschools in the country. You'll get a
(35:40):
wonderful education and you'll get to knowyour professors, they'll get to know you,
and you'll you'll find a great opportunitygoing there. And he was absolutely
right, Frankie. I went andI took my first philosphy class in my
freshman year, of course in Frenchexistentialism, and I loved it. And
then I decided to take another onemy sophomore year in Greek philosophy, and
(36:02):
I got a professor that said ouryouth philosophy major name with Anne Ashball.
I said, no, I'm not, professor. She said, well,
I tell you what you're going tobe one because you really got a knack.
I love it, and I listen. I don't want to I don't
want to be out of I don'twant to be out of time because without
even talking about the book, becausewe need to talk about your new book
a realistic Black Tropia. Professor Derby, why we messed unite to fight so
(36:30):
Franky, let me tell you Iwrote this book because we live in a
time where we have lots of challengesand problems that we face together as a
society and really as a humanity facesin general. Just a case in point,
think about the tragic Think about thetragic earthquake that just struck Turkey in
(36:52):
Syria and all the laws that havebeen lost. This is devastating effect that
affected lots of people. And sothe whole point of my book, Frankie,
is to say, when we're dealingwith big, challenging problems, whether
they have to do with our vulnerabilityto natural disaster, to climate change,
(37:13):
whatever they have to do with poverty, whether they have to do with inequality,
whether they have to do with healthand people not having enough to satisfy
their healthcare or to provide for theirkids, we should view these as big
problems that we have to deal withcollectively, and we have to unite to
deal with these problems. We can'treally effectively deal with them if we divide
(37:34):
ourselves into factions and we fight amongstourselves to figure out who's going to get
what. Rather, we should approachthese problems that we share in common and
figure out ways to work together tobring about the best situation for as many
people as we can. And that'swhy I wrote this book, thinking specifically
about racial issues and the US inways that we should work better to unite
(37:58):
to deal with some of these issues. We are almost out of time,
professor, Oh my gosh, I'dlove to invite you back and have a
longer conversation. Give us the bestway people can get your book and more
information about you. Yeah, mybook is available right now on Amazon dot
com and they can learn more aboutme and follow me in my classroom at
(38:22):
Instagram on Instagram at hip hop andphilosophy. Wonderful. Thank you so much
for being with us today and thankall of you. This has been another
edition of the Frankie Boyer Show forbiz Talk Radio. Thanks for listening.
Make it a great day, everybody, and as always, smile, love
(38:42):
us and Sottle. Smile and maybetomorrow you'll see the sun come. I'm
rocking through for you face with gladness. It makes me subsets. Maybe ever
sow here and if it's smile herfears and start smile, and maybe tomorrow
(39:12):
you'll see the light is still worthwhile. If you tomorrow, I am,
Don't you always want to be thebest you can be. The Frankie Boyer
Show it's more than a lifestyle show. It's a show about living in today's
world. I think something is happening. Frankie enthusiastically brings an amazing, eclectic
mix to the airwaves. One ofthe reasons she's earned legions of loyal fans
is very simple. When you listento The Frankie Boyer Show, you just
(00:22):
never know what's going to happen.So listen for yourself. Here is Frankie
Boyer, and welcome. It isso nice to have you with this right
here on the Frankie Boyer Show,joining me today. And such an important,
such an important new book by anextraordinary man, and a career that
(00:49):
has just been amazing because Robert JayLifton, who is now ninety seven,
yes you heard me correctly, ninetyseven years young, is a psychiatrist and
a pioneer in the field of psychohistory, and he has written over twenty books,
(01:11):
including many seminal works in the field, such as the National Book Award
winning Death in Life Survivors of Hiroshima. He's also a Los Angeles Times book
winning author with the Nazi Doctors NationalBook Award nominated Home from the War,
(01:38):
as well as the Climate Swerve LosingReality. And his newest book is called
Surviving Our Catastrophes, and it isa book that draws on historical examples of
survivor power, but not just fromthe horrific five years that we've experienced Jin
(02:00):
Maui or Hiroshima or the unimaginable holocaust. He's talking about COVID nineteen and what
that pandemic has done in the aftermathof that catastrophe. And I welcome you
to the program, Robert Jay Lifton. So nice to have you with us
(02:24):
today. I'm glad to be withyou as someone who has been writing about
this for a very long time.What do you what is it about us
(02:46):
as a country, as a nationwhen it comes to catastrophes. What are
some of the traits that we have. Well, first, the most threatening
trait and the most disturbing trait isto deny the catastrophe itself. We have
(03:12):
before us a number of catastrophes,including nuclear and climates, but also the
threat to democracy and the COVID nineteenpandemic. If you deny the significance of
(03:34):
the COVID nineteen pandemic, as wasthe case with Trump and Trumps and even
the therapeutic value of the vaccines forits then it's difficult, indeed to hope
(03:57):
with that catastrophe because divivors there canbe survivors of a catastrophe that isn't itself
recognized as such, and such dividedpeople. But there are such division in
this country right now. And well, I think I don't want to get
(04:21):
into politics, because this show isnot about politics, and I don't I
don't go down that road. Butwhat I want to just share with you
is that I have noticed that sinceCOVID people are having more mental health issues
(04:43):
than ever before. There has beenall kinds of talk about the loneliness epidemic
which is going on right now aswell, and I'd love for you to
talk about some of those things aswell. Yes, well, let me
put it this way. With COVID, there are two kinds of survivors.
(05:09):
One is one consists of the immediatesurvivors, people who have had it and
recovered from it, or have hadfamily members or people very close to them
who have had it and recovered fromit. These are immediate COVID survivors with
(05:30):
the cheering experience of the threat ofCOVID, and the other group is the
rest of us who are threatened bythe COVID pandemic and as variations that keep
occurring. We are the distant survivors, but we are survivors none who has
(06:00):
because we fear OVID, and withgood reason. It's a sanitary pandemic,
and it can be and has beendeadly in very large numbers. But we
take steps to avoid it and strugglewith it because it threatens us with what
(06:28):
one can call death anxiety. Thepandemic is associated with death, and the
rest of us in seeking to avoidit, whether by moving to different places,
changing our lives as you're suggesting,altering how we live, and struggling
(06:53):
with an effort to understand the COVIDpandemic. With all that, we also
are survivors, but distant survivors.We don't think of ourselves off in that
way because we are distant rather thanimmediate survivors. And in a way,
(07:15):
the immediate survivors are forming groups inwhich they're insisting that the rest of us
take up to what COVID is andrecognize that we're all survivors of it and
to bring closer immediate and distant survivors. And for that purpose, there are
(07:42):
groups that form from immediate survivors withnames like Survivor Corps, or Marked by
COVID, or COVID Survivor for Change, or Young Widows and Widowers of COVID,
(08:05):
or Body Politic. All these groupsmake clear to us that COVID is
a threatening experience that we are strugglingto survive. Absolutely, let me go
back in history. We just celebratedtwenty two years from nine to eleven,
(08:28):
twenty two years ago, and itis when you when we think back of
those of that time, it's it'sjust still unimaginable, unimaginable. Yes,
(08:50):
talk talk to us about how weget through these difficult times, and I
can't even imagine how some of themost articulate authors and brilliant people that survived
(09:13):
the camps, that survived the Holocaust, how do they do it? How
tell me about survivors, how dothey? How do they do this?
Robert? How do they survive likethis and not only survive but thrive such
terrific What can happen is that immediatesurvivors form in tense groups with names like
(09:45):
the ones I just mentioned, andin those groups they seek to bring about
a transformation from the helpless to thelife enhancing survivor. Hold on one second,
(10:07):
we need to take a quick break. We will be back in just
a moment. Surviving Our Catastrophes andit is a new book by Robert J.
Lyfton Resilience and Renewal from Hiroshima tothe COVID nineteen pandemic. This amazing
psychiatrist and one of the world's mostmost gifted, gifted authors of How We
(10:39):
Do Survive is with us today.Ninety seven years young is his age ninety
seven? Amazing, isn't it.We'll be right back, Frankie Boers,
(11:07):
And welcome back. It is FrankieBoyer. And you know I have to
say, Robert, that I'm inr of you and your history and your
life and your awards and all thatyou have experienced. And your new book
is called Surviving Our Catastrophes. Whydid you want to write this book at
(11:28):
the stage in your life, RobertJ. Lifton, Because at this stage
in my life I began to feelthat my writings over the years and decades
have related to this question and Iwanted to put them together in a sustained
(11:52):
argument or this process of survivor renewal. And I came to realize that the
simple matter of recognizing catastrophes and thenthat transformation of the survivor from helper's victim
(12:15):
to life giving agent of change isthe crucial transformation that is involved. And
I had referred in bits and piecesto this kind of transformation, but never
in a sustained argument, with backingfrom considerable research which which articulates this kind
(12:48):
of transformation. And I also cameto recognize that this very transformation is the
key, because when one experiences extremetrauma, one can close down or open
(13:09):
out. And if you close down, that's being overcome by psychic numbing,
as I call psychic numbing, whichis simply the diminished capacity or inclination to
feel. You either close down oropen out. And as survivors open out,
(13:31):
and they have to do so electivelyfrom the impetus of these immediate survivors,
then the experience gets transmitted to thewhole society, and the society is
changed by it because people are lookingat the immediate role of survivors in the
(13:58):
present and the kind of legacy thatthey leave for us. And that's the
situation that exists now. And itwas a situation I wanted to articulate and
make clear because I thought it wasso relevant for our situation now. I
asked you about the survivors. Howwhat is it about being tortured and surviving
(14:26):
the most horrific of times and comingout of it? Are there some that
aren't? Is it just the fittestsurvival of the fittest? Is there something
more? Is there something it need? Is there something we can learn well?
Survivors, of course vary, andin a way they're always in a
(14:52):
struggle between closing down and opening out. They they have a mark of death,
so to speak, and that's whythey are survivors. And it's a
(15:13):
combination of their own capacity and acollective process that begins to take shape as
leaders emerge from among them and untoarticulate. These emergent leaders as they called,
come to articulate what the survivor hasbeen through, and in that way
(15:39):
they can form a elective force inthe service of more life and overcoming death
anxiety. So it's a combination offacts, but it depends upon a collective
(16:03):
process among survivors, and so wesee, yeah, yeah, I understand
what you're sharing with us. Ijust have before we leave you, and
I just we need to know fromsuch a brilliant mind and the works that
(16:25):
you've been doing, what about thekids today and this epidemic of mental health?
How how are we going to getthrough this? Robert Well, it's
doctor, it's extreme goals. Andthere's an although one one doesn't look at
(16:45):
this is not a political matter thatyou're talking about when you bring up mental
health. There's an interaction between themental mental state and the struggle for healing
and the politics of the situation.Because survivors and the rest of us in
(17:15):
this struggle with OVID nineteen pandemic needvarious collective efforts on the part of others
to share and that helps the mentalstate. Similarly, some of them will
(17:37):
need actual therapy, which can helpin a way the political process. So
there's an interaction between the psychological andthe political and all. This is part
of what I call the psychohistorical approach, in which you looked at immediate experience
(18:03):
and at the same time at thehistory behind and contributing and effecting, and
as part of that experience. Sofrom a psychohistorical standpoint, in that way,
we have to look at these survivorsmental state and its interaction with the
(18:25):
political process. As someone who hasbeen looking at the history of survival.
What's the good news? Is theresome good news about all of this?
Well, there is good news inthe groups that I mentioned before that immediate
survivors are forming, because those groupshave already and will continue to influence society.
(18:53):
And I think more and more people, even among distance surviving. It
is like the rest of us arerecognizing that we are experienced something on the
order of death anxiety. We don'tcall of that, but that's what it
amounts to. So this is goodnews in that the process is being recognized.
(19:21):
I'm so sorry, doctor, weare almost out of time and this
has just been so important to haveyou with us. I appreciate everything that
you're sharing with us today and thework that you've done and the chronicling of
surviving. And congratulations on your newbook and we all will be picking it
(19:41):
up, Doctor Robert J. LiftonNational Book Award Winner Surviving Our Catastrophes,
Resilience and Renewal. Thank you somuch, doctor, Thank you. We'll
take a quick break and being rightback. It's Frank youso and welcome back
(20:15):
at his Frankie Boyer and I justthis next guest. Let me just tell
you he is absolutely one of themost knowledgeable people when it comes to hamburgers
because he is a Hamburger historian.No, I'm not kidding. I am
not kidding. So I'm doing thissegment even though I am a vegetarian myself,
(20:42):
but I think I think it's interestingand fascinating the backstory about hamburgers.
And he's a Yale University graduate,an award winning writer contributor to Forbes.
But he does love his burgers somuch that he took years to research the
(21:04):
complete history of the iconic hamburger.And he is with us today and the
author of Hamburger Dreams. How classiccrime solving techniques help crack the case of
America's greatest culinary mystery. Chris Kurosa, welcome, Hey, thanks for having
(21:27):
me. Frank you. So Ihave to ask you. I was just
referencing something the other day. Doyou remember, and I'm showing my age
when McDonald's actually put the number ofburgers that they had served. Oh yeah,
(21:48):
oh yeah, and then it gottwo big, so they just said
billions and billions and left it atthat. Yeah. Yeah, but you
are saying, we as American arewe eat ninety this fifty billion billion?
That's right with the b fifty billionburgers each year? Is that? Is
(22:14):
that possible? Is that true?That's what they Yeah, it's a lot
of cows, that certainly is.So what is Is there one state that
loves burgers more than another state oris it a pretty equal opportunity across across
from coast to coast. Oh?I think it's pretty much a universal food.
(22:37):
Everybody likes it, thinks. Lookat look at the number of hamburger
stands that are available competing hamburger stands, not just national chains but regional and
local hamburger places. Everybody eats hamburgers. Yeah, yeah, most everybody,
I would think, Yeah, exceptfor US vegetarians, all right. Yeah,
(23:00):
and even the hamburger joints are nowoffering vegan and plant based options as
well, just so you know theyreally are. Oh yeah, there's there's
literally, if you could think ofit, they could make a burger out
of it, not just veganburger,but they can put special things on the
(23:22):
burger, and in fact, thething that's coming up is one of the
most popular additions to burgers is thecheeseburger. September eighteenth is National Cheeseburger Day,
and I don't know why they've pickedthat day, but it's kind of
interesting and ironic that they do.But the idea of a cheeseburger is really
what fascinates people. But there's alot of myths surrounding it, including who
(23:48):
invented it. I don't know ifif you're familiar with some of the stories,
but there's a story out of Pasadena, California that's probably the most popular
one. Some point in the midnineteen twenties, Lionel Sternburger puts cheese on
a cheeseburger or on a hamburger,and he didn't call it a cheeseburger.
(24:08):
He called it a cheese hamburger.Kind of kind of clunky. But a
guy supposedly in nineteen thirty two inKentucky, sorry, nineteen thirty four in
Kentucky, Charles kayleeen he was theone who came up with the name cheeseburger.
But in nineteen thirty five, aguy by the name of Louis blast
at the Humpty Dumpty Drive in inDenver, Colorado, supposedly trade marks the
(24:33):
term cheeseburger, but you know what, the word cheeseburger was already in the
lexicon as early as the nineteen thirties. Nineteen thirty one, thirty two,
there were advertisements in Sullivanan, SouthernCalifornia, and Kentucky using the word cheeseburger,
and it's spread throughout the country.In New Jersey locked down through the
South. There's even a menu fromnineteen twenty eight which uses the word cheese
(25:00):
burger. So that the idea ofcheeseburger being invented by whoever claims it is
really not substantiated solidly by the historicalfacts. It even goes one step further.
In eighteen ninety four, the ChicagoTribune ran a story about roadside stands
(25:22):
and do you know that you couldget a Swiss cheese and hamburger for ten
cents. It didn't call it acheeseburger, but it was cheese and a
hamburger. So this goes back reallyalmost to the time when hamburgers were initially
invented. Yeah, yeah, AndI can tell you right now that you
weren't paying nineteen dollars for a sideof French fries like you are today.
(25:45):
And there are local restaurants in myneck of the woods. Snow kidding,
because this morning we were walking Iwas walking the dog in One of my
neighbors that works over on this side, he lives in seat was telling me
he was at the New Saint Regisand the side of French fries was so
outright. He couldn't believe the priceon the menu. He couldn't believe it
(26:08):
for French fries. He said,where are they getting their French fries?
But Burger Gordon Hemsley's Burger Burger jointopened up right here at the Canopy Hotel
in Boston, doing extremely well,and he's charging an absolute fortune for a
(26:32):
hamburger. But every single person whoI have spoken to has said it's well
worth it. Well, i'll gowith that. I've never been there,
so I'll trust your judgment on there. Yeah, they say it's it's they're
really outstanding. He uses the mostamazing meat. What chain uses a better
(26:52):
quality meat? Can you give usthat? Can you give us any inside
tips about where we should go ifwe're going to get it? A burger.
Well, I'm not so much aculinary expert as I am a historian,
and I know that different change usesme differently, and they each advertise
how they do it differently. Andreally, in the end, it's going
(27:15):
to be your personal preference on whichone you end up going with. Yeah,
I'm sure it is. I'm sureit is. As you were researching
for your book and all of thework, how did this whole thing,
by the way, start out?How did you become the hamburger dreams guy?
Really? Quite by accident. Iwas in college senior year, I
(27:40):
had to write the history of mytown where I grew up in Buffalo,
and one of the articles that Ihad did not make it into the paper,
by the way, but one ofthe articles mentioned that the hamburger was
invented at the Erie County Fair,and I was very excited. I used
to work at the Erie County Fairwhen I lived there, and I ever
heard of the story. So Iran down told the earliest person or first
(28:03):
person I saw, Hey, guesswhat the hamburger was invented in Buffalo,
And he said, no, itwasn't. It was invented right here in
New Haven. And he probably tookme to Louise Lunch where I had a
hamburger there, and that was reallymy first introduction to the multiple stories.
It wasn't until years later when Iwrote another book, and this was a
chapter in that book about the historyof the Western New York region. And
(28:26):
as I did my book tour,this was one of the most popular parts
of the presentation that I made.So I did an entire book on it.
And you've become the hamburger history expert. And I have to ask you,
how many hamburgers do you eat ina week? Probably one or two
(28:51):
when I have a hamburger. It'snot every week though, I usually have
two hamburgers though. Okay, soyou're not really into every every day hamburger,
like there are some people that eateat them every day. Now,
I try to mix things up.That's a good thing. That's a really
good thing. Well, and I'msure you realize that where are the most
(29:18):
Can you tell us is there onepart of the country that's more gourmet with
their hamburgers? Well, I thinkyou probably go to the coasts and you'll
find that you'll get these craftburgers asa very popular menu item. Now it's
(29:40):
now extended into the interior of thecountry. But really that sort of gourmet
hamburger or gourmet burger or burger variationon a theme. It really starts at
these on the coasts and then worksit way. It's way inward. But
now you can go almost anywhere andget you know, go to place that
(30:00):
it's you Kraftburger. It's just likepizza. You know, pizza used to
be pretty much the same all overthe place, but then they invented this
thing called Kraft Pizza. Or wouldfight. Yeah, now it's everywhere.
Well, this was really fun.Thank you so much. Hamburger historian himself
Chris Carosa, author of Hamburger Dreamsand the best website is Hamburger Dreams dot
(30:26):
com, or you could just lookup the book on Amazon. Whatever's easy.
Okay, thanks for being with ustoday. We'll take a quick break
and be right back. I'm FrankieBoiler and welcome back. It is Frankie
(31:12):
Moyer and I thought it would beimportant to talk about why we must unite
to fight. I know it soundsabsolutely crazy, but Professor Derek Darby is
with us. A realistic black Topiais the name of his book. Why
we must unite to fight. AndProfessor, welcome to the program. You're
(31:37):
a distinguished professor philosophy at Rutgers University, and you discovered your passion for philosophy
growing up in the Queensbridge public housingprojects in New York City. And you
write about rights and inequality and democracy. You've been profiled in the Atlantic and
(31:59):
published in the New York Times,and you co host a pod called Quest
and the author of the Color ofMind why the origins of the achievement gap
matter for justice? And it's apleasure to have you with us. Well,
(32:20):
thank you so much for having meon your show, Frankie, on
this Valentine's Day. I still appreciateit. And tell me a little bit
about how your background molded you toto write this book, A realistic Black
Topia. Well, let me tellyou, Frankie. I grew up,
(32:43):
as as you pointed out, inNew York City and the largest public housing
project actually in the United States,Queensbridge, which is also a very famous
housing project, having produced some veryprominent hip hop artists including Non Oh,
Yes, Yes, and I andFrankie. I grew up I was very
young, and I realized at anearly age that I wasn't going to be
(33:06):
a rapper. I wasn't going tobe a bad basketball player, a boxer,
a football player. I wasn't goingto be any kind of athlete in
fact, or a musician. Andat the time, these were all things
that a lot of kids hope wouldbasically pull them out of the projects and
into, you know, into thebig wide world to be successful and to
(33:28):
move up the ladder. But Ididn't have any of those talents, Frankie,
And for me, it turned outthat the one thing I was really
good at and I loved was school. But you know, that was sometimes
talenting because people look at you likeyou were a nerd because you like to
read books. And so for me, at an early age, I said,
(33:50):
no, I'm really good at school. I love these books, and
I embraced it. And as akid, I was always interested in asking
big questions like why is why thatI know it then, but that was
basically the sign and I was aphilosopher because philosophers like to ask big,
challenging questions and to pursue answers tothem, and so that was the foundation
that really explained why I got inthe philosophy, because I sort of discovered
(34:14):
my passion for it as a kid, and I realized that that was education
through philosophy was going to be myticket out of the projects. Boy,
did you ever huh? Did Iever? You know? And you certainly
have grateful for a mother that Ihad who was fairly serious when it came
(34:35):
to school. Frankie, I wasthe oldest of three. I had a
lot of responsibility at a young agein the house. My mother put a
priority on education and doing good inschool and didn't settled for me bringing home
anything less than an A If Igot that's awesome. That's why you got
into I mean, that's that's whereyou got into Colgate. I mean you
(34:59):
had to have that kind of aleteller record to get into that school.
Absolutely, Frankie. I went tohigh school in Manhattan, Martin Luther King
Junior High School, which is behindLincoln Center, and I had a wonderful
guidance counselor named Barry Lieberman. Andwhen I got to my senior year,
(35:19):
he said, you know, Derek, you you need to consider a small
liberal arts school because you would getreally hands on training with great professors,
and I think you would really benefitfrom having close contact with professors, and
he recommended that I apply to callGame. I didn't know about COPE,
and when I got in, hesaid, you absolutely have to go.
That's one of the best liberal artsschools in the country. You'll get a
(35:40):
wonderful education and you'll get to knowyour professors, they'll get to know you,
and you'll you'll find a great opportunitygoing there. And he was absolutely
right, Frankie. I went andI took my first philosphy class in my
freshman year, of course in Frenchexistentialism, and I loved it. And
then I decided to take another onemy sophomore year in Greek philosophy, and
(36:02):
I got a professor that said ouryouth philosophy major name with Anne Ashball.
I said, no, I'm not, professor. She said, well,
I tell you what you're going tobe one because you really got a knack.
I love it, and I listen. I don't want to I don't
want to be out of I don'twant to be out of time because without
even talking about the book, becausewe need to talk about your new book
a realistic Black Tropia. Professor Derby, why we messed unite to fight so
(36:30):
Franky, let me tell you Iwrote this book because we live in a
time where we have lots of challengesand problems that we face together as a
society and really as a humanity facesin general. Just a case in point,
think about the tragic Think about thetragic earthquake that just struck Turkey in
(36:52):
Syria and all the laws that havebeen lost. This is devastating effect that
affected lots of people. And sothe whole point of my book, Frankie,
is to say, when we're dealingwith big, challenging problems, whether
they have to do with our vulnerabilityto natural disaster, to climate change,
(37:13):
whatever they have to do with poverty, whether they have to do with inequality,
whether they have to do with healthand people not having enough to satisfy
their healthcare or to provide for theirkids, we should view these as big
problems that we have to deal withcollectively, and we have to unite to
deal with these problems. We can'treally effectively deal with them if we divide
(37:34):
ourselves into factions and we fight amongstourselves to figure out who's going to get
what. Rather, we should approachthese problems that we share in common and
figure out ways to work together tobring about the best situation for as many
people as we can. And that'swhy I wrote this book, thinking specifically
about racial issues and the US inways that we should work better to unite
(37:58):
to deal with some of these issues. We are almost out of time,
professor, Oh my gosh, I'dlove to invite you back and have a
longer conversation. Give us the bestway people can get your book and more
information about you. Yeah, mybook is available right now on Amazon dot
com and they can learn more aboutme and follow me in my classroom at
(38:22):
Instagram on Instagram at hip hop andphilosophy. Wonderful. Thank you so much
for being with us today and thankall of you. This has been another
edition of the Frankie Boyer Show forbiz Talk Radio. Thanks for listening.
Make it a great day, everybody, and as always, smile, love
(38:42):
us and Sottle. Smile and maybetomorrow you'll see the sun come. I'm
rocking through for you face with gladness. It makes me subsets. Maybe ever
sow here and if it's smile herfears and start smile, and maybe tomorrow
(39:12):
you'll see the light is still worthwhile. If you tomorrow, I am,
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