February 27, 2025 • 51 mins
For this week’s Harness Racing Alumni Show, along with Freddie, Trade, Bob and Andy Cohen with his weekly keeping pace update…., we have assembled an international panel to discuss harness racing. The expert panel consists of international owner and breeder, Gordon Banks; Hall of Fame Driver and CEO of the Hambletonian Society, John Campbell; Thoroughbred and standardbred owner and the former CEO of Woodbine Entertainment, Clay Horner; from Australia, trainer, driver, owner, the cohost of Trot Vision and the vice president of the Victorian Trainer and Drivers association, Steve Cleave; and from New Zealand, standardbred owner and breeder, Robert Famularo. A must listen to show for everyone involved in harness racing.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to this week's Harness Racing Alumni Show. I'm Freddie
Hudson and I'm here today with Trade Martin, Bob Marx
and Andy Cohen.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
The Harness Racing Alumni Show with your host Freddie Hudson
and Trade Martin.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
On this week's show, we have assembled an international panel
to discuss harness racing.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
The panel consists of.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
International owner and breeder Gordon Banks, Hall of Fame, driver
and the CEO of the Hamiltonian Society, John Campbell from Canada.
We have thoroughbred and standardbred owner and breeder, the former
CEO of Woodbine Entertainment, Clay Horner from Australia, trainer driver, owner,
the co host of Trot Vision and the Vice president
(00:46):
of the Victorian Trainer and Drivers Association, Steve Steve. And
from New Zealand, standardbred owner and breeder Robert le Laura.
Welcome to the Harness Racing Alumni Show, gentlemen. Now Gordon
(01:06):
is going to be conducting this and so I'm switching
over to Gordon too for him to take over.
Speaker 4 (01:13):
Well, I appreciate that, and I wanted to thank everybody
for participating. And I have a feeling it might be
a little difficult to speak with six people on this
call at the same time, but we could try just
to set the stage a little bit. I think the
best we can do is try to see if we
(01:33):
can between us come up with some ideas. It can
lead to something that moves the industry forward, because it's
certainly in a lot of difficulty and at a turning
point down under. And here in the stage, I don't
want to set too much of a stage. I want
everybody to say whatever it is that they think could
be relevant and helpful. And with that I think I
(01:57):
should really open up. I could say that for me,
what I see in the States is a real problem
in that you have an industry that doesn't own its product,
which really can't make use of its product, which is simulcasting.
It has ownership with casinos that wants its demise, It
(02:20):
has a product that deteriorated, and it doesn't really own
assets that enable the business to succeed, and has no
capability of immediate profitability or even medium term profitability because
of the limited amount of money that it can make
on direct racing. So with that, and you have an
organization in the USKA it hasn't yet been effective.
Speaker 5 (02:44):
So it leads to the question.
Speaker 4 (02:46):
Of what can North America do to salvage harness racing
and to move it forward given those set of facts.
Speaker 5 (02:54):
And then in.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
Australia, especially where Stephen is you have a major problem
in Victoria where they've lost us a fortune and that's.
Speaker 5 (03:03):
A major point of discussion.
Speaker 4 (03:04):
And in New Zealand, Roberts are going to be able
to discuss better the situation there, which is probably more
hopeful than all the other jurisdictions, but has its issues
as well. So with that, I think I sort of
have to open it up to everybody and see where
it goes. I think the industry needs this discussion and
there shouldn't be any restrictions on it.
Speaker 5 (03:26):
Coordinate Clay. I'll just have one observation to start off
from my perspective, and maybe people can think about this
in terms of whether it resonates with them or not.
I'm looking at not specifically Canada, although would mind qualifies
sort of on the fringes of this. But if I
(03:48):
look at the US racing team and look at the
organizations that are successful and have a prospect of being successful,
and this is completely consistent with your comment to begin with,
so who are they? Their Churchill which owns its product,
There's Stronik, which owns its product but doesn't want to
(04:10):
be in the business. There's Nira and in particular with
a crown jewel like Saratoga, and the New Belmont, which
is a not for profit organization, so committed only to
the business and with enough scale to own their distribution
or control their distribution. And then you have Keemland on
(04:36):
a smaller scale running an elite boutique business, but again
one that everybody has to have and take. So my
biggest observation from a business point of view would be
to succeed in the long run, it requires that the
(04:59):
principal layers in the business are people that have an
elite quality product and own their own distribution, hopefully with
multi multi assets to sell. Woodbines fortunate in that regard
that has both the standard bread and the thoroughbred business.
(05:21):
But personally, I think the future of tracks that are
solo organizations or operations or loose amalgamation of tracks that
are owned by casinos. I would just venture to everybody
(05:41):
that within ten years all of those will be gone.
So the alternative is what can we do and build
out of three or four organizations that have enough prestige
qual would be a product and control enough of their
(06:03):
distribution to possibly make it in the long term.
Speaker 4 (06:07):
Well, all I can say is I agree hundred percent.
I think everybody else has to see as you know
that you gave them a big mouthful. You and I
have sometimes discussed these things, John, but that I think
that's what does everybody think about that?
Speaker 5 (06:21):
What do you think? Cut?
Speaker 3 (06:23):
So I was Quay who said that.
Speaker 5 (06:26):
I'm sorry, what do you think? John? Well, Uh, I
don't disagree.
Speaker 6 (06:32):
And the problem we have is any kind of consensus
or unity within the game. You know, in my opinion,
we don't have a very good business model and we
can't get a unified voice or agreement to change it.
You know, we're over exposed. We have tracks that are
(06:54):
racing too much. The public has made it clear they
want competitive racing with big field, and we go out
of our way not to give them that. And I
don't know what the timeframe is for that, but it's
there's certainly a finite number at the end of the
line here if we don't, you know, change our our
(07:17):
business model in regards.
Speaker 5 (07:19):
To dates the quality of the fields.
Speaker 6 (07:21):
The size of the fields, because that's what the public wants.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
Yeah, Freddy, here, I agree with you, John One.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
We need to start mixing it up a little bit
and make the product more attractive. And then once once
we have the product more attractive, we can start marketing it.
Speaker 6 (07:38):
Yes, but then you know, we still have that problem
that of the percentage of the bets that's fed off
track now, and the tracks get such a small percent
of that. And let's be honest, people are not coming
back to the track except on our big events, and
that's why we have to put all our effort and
resources into making our big events the best they possibly
(08:01):
can and expose people in that way. So we still
have the problem with the majority of the bets coming
in from out a off track and the small percent
of what the tracks and the horsemen gained from that.
Speaker 5 (08:17):
And you're exactly right on that, John, And the problem
or the issue to solve is a lot of that
is due to the casino companies not having any real
interest in it being different from that. And so if
you were, you know, to look in a grand way,
(08:37):
if you said, okay, let's put together an amalgam of woodbine,
the Meadowlands, the Red Mile when they race, you know,
maybe Ohio, although they're tied up with a casino company,
and think about whether there's another product that could be
(08:58):
a quality product, and say, these tracks need to come
together as one organization for betting purposes and coordinate their schedules,
coordinate their race programs, coordinate the sharing of big races,
(09:21):
and most importantly, do everything they can to have be
there our our peri mutual network that is going to
get the majority of the betting, or enough of the
betting so instead of it being three percent at the
(09:43):
end of the day, it's never going to go back
to being twenty. But could we put together that amaldum
of players and have enough product of a quality product
to allow the tracks to get twelve percent?
Speaker 4 (09:56):
Yak, I think that's the key. I think otherwise you
start in a situation where the tracks cannot possibly make money.
And how a business that can't make money on its
direct product can succeed over time and live over time,
I don't see it, you know. And the other thing
I think is I wonder if one can try to
(10:21):
develop sort of a win win win situation between the governments,
the casinos and racing whereby over a period of five
or ten years, one's transitioning to a situation where racing
is owned by people that want racing to succeed, and
(10:42):
the casinos clearly want us out. They're going to do
everything they can to push for decoupling. It's an inevitable
that it's going to come. What if we work with
the casinos in the States to let them, at some
point seven ten years out be released from the connection
racing and in the in the meantime, what they have
(11:04):
to do is move the racing to some sort of
much less expensive geographical location in whatever state or provinces
in Well, give that asset.
Speaker 5 (11:15):
It's going to I think I think there's another gem
of an idea in there, because I think the other
long term threat to racing is the governments will say,
you know, particularly in an era where governments are being
you know cut down or or you know, being required
to have less operating tenants, racing is a very easy
(11:37):
place for state governments to look at it and say, well,
if we're going to do the the federal government in
the US is doing, uh rate, you know, let's let's start.
We'll cut the racing money by half. But but if
we could go to the States and on Ontario in
Canada and say we collectively can do over time with
(12:00):
less government money, but we need this transition period and
we need you to be resolute partners of ours and
doing that. And part of that is the legislative peace
of how we're going to let the casino companies partially
off the hook, maybe part totally off the hook over time.
(12:25):
And we do not have enough negotiating leverage as tracks
and horse people to do that, but you do because
they're completely subject to your jurisdiction in that regard. And collectively,
coming back to the point, we want to fashion a
win win win that allows them to get out of
(12:45):
what they don't want to do, allow you government to
ultimately have to put in less collective money, but also
gives us the time to chart our own destiny doing
this together.
Speaker 6 (12:58):
Again.
Speaker 7 (13:00):
I'm sorry if I can jump in there.
Speaker 8 (13:03):
Exactly what you're saying right now is what we are
experiencing victoria here in Australia is we didn't have well,
we did have time, it wasn't used up properly. Our
government basically is broke, and they come to us and
they said a few years ago that we need to
start living within our means. And unfortunately, when the government's
showing lots of grants and everything else, I think it's
(13:25):
going to continue on.
Speaker 7 (13:26):
You know, Daddy's credit cards never going to run out,
and the government have.
Speaker 8 (13:30):
Basically cut that credit card off from Victoria this year
and we've had massive cuts and we have no future fund,
so we've got nothing to fall back on unless we
can organize a deal to sell some land or whatever else.
But what you're just saying about having enough time to transition,
(13:50):
get yourself into the right position, so you do have
a future fund to set yourself up going forward and
not run into the brick wall that we've run into.
Speaker 7 (14:00):
Victoria.
Speaker 8 (14:00):
We're running for state money now that's lower than what
we were racing for back in twenty thirteen. You know,
we're talking twelve or thirteen years ago. We were racing
for more money. And it's getting extremely hard to survive
down here. These other states in Australia that are actually
doing quite well. So it's not just Australian racing. It's
(14:20):
really directed to Victoria. And that's because we were one
of the strongest states and we had so much government support,
and as soon as that got taken away, we realized
we just had nothing built up underneath that government support.
Speaker 4 (14:34):
Yeah, I mean, but New sohuth Wales which is very
successful successful largely because they sold Harold Parrak for about
two hundred million or one hundred and fifty million. They've
been able Yeah, they've been able to subsidize based on
that and the income from that. And that's what I
was thinking too to what Clan I were both discussing
that if it's a wig win at the end of
(14:57):
the day, you want racing to not only have only
that wants racing to succeed, but you wanted to have
an underlying real estate asset. And if one can broke
or a deal where the casinos cooperate in getting racing
that underlying land asset in a very inexpensive area of
it's well chosen that perhaps in ten years is worth
(15:20):
an awful lot more. It's another backstop for racing, not
just the funding but the land that it gives racing.
There's so many things that can be done, but it
requires cooperation between the legislative state government, the ownership of
the casino ownership and racing. And to me, the biggest
problem is how and who represents racing? How does one
(15:42):
move it from how does how do you effectuate clay
the vision you have?
Speaker 5 (15:47):
Who would do it? Well? I think what you do
is put together a group of I'll call it the
CEOs that are investigating in racing, together with with John
and the and the Hambletonian Society, and maybe I'd suggest
a couple of other uh people who are just fantastically
(16:09):
successful business thinkers. UH. So we become, we become we
get more than just our shared history, but we get
people who have transformed other industries to work with us
in thinking about the way you transform, uh, you transform
an industry and we go at that collectively. I mean, again,
(16:32):
another incredible example of what you're talking about in terms
of saying, capitalize on the value of our real estate
and move to a place where we can get the distribution.
But you know, not in a situation where you have
to own the land. Is you know Kentucky Downs. I mean,
obviously it's a very short, short meat, but the persons
(16:54):
are astronomical and and by definition that means that every
wagering facil has to carry that product as the top
product of the top product of the time and I
that you know, that would be part of all of that,
(17:14):
together with uh, you know, getting the governments to invest
in it at the outset and coming up with again
a reasonable schedule of when our races are going to
be on so we maximize the opportunities for the tracks
that are in rotation at any particular time. I'll say,
(17:40):
probably the biggest thing I've learned during my short time
as a thoroughbred owner, when you know, I've been lucky
enough going you know, a couple of great parts of
Great Court is one of the great asset the thoroughbred
business has. And I'm thinking about Australia and New Zealand
(18:00):
in this regard is the inter truly international nature of
the racing. So I look at it and someone would
say to me, how is your viewership of racing changed
from the way it was ten years ago, let alone
twenty years ago. I look at it and say, okay,
I watch most of my racing on the weekend, but
(18:24):
in the summer a large part of that is watching
the English, Irish and French thoroughbred racing. For my thoroughbred content,
maybe a little bit of Saratoga, but I would say
just myself. The one of the great observations I have
(18:44):
of European harness racing and Australasia harness racing is the
big fields that you have, because again, if we're going
to be a competitive long term product, we have to
have twelve horses on the race track, and because you know,
for the for the reasons we all for the reasons
(19:06):
we all know, but but again we know that means
we have to have the purses that make that work
for the guys who and women that own those horses.
But a but a part of it that I think
we could do better at is incorporating the Australasian racing
(19:27):
into the North American calendar and educating our clients about that,
and vice and vice versa, and maybe a little of
it from France. I mean, I historically that you know, watched,
maybe watch the pre Marique every year. That'd be the
only race I've watched. And I still don't watch a
great deal. But I can tell you I just marvel
(19:47):
when I watch a race and I've been sending you know,
an overnight race where there are fifteen trotters and they
trot three wide the whole way. I mean, it's just
I mean, let's face it, it's ten times more interesting,
That's true.
Speaker 7 (20:02):
Is it interesting?
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Always?
Speaker 5 (20:04):
It puntable and puntable and puntable, right, I mean business
perms puntable more importantly, but it's also interesting.
Speaker 4 (20:14):
But one of the difficulties there, Steve, I also have
thought for a long time there should be much more
Australian racing here, and one of the former heads of
Victorian Racing and we were trying to work together on
introducing it here in the States in an intelligent fashion
where the program where programs would be available to North
Americans in a in a fashion that we could understand.
(20:38):
Because most Americans, if they look at your form, wouldn't
know what they're looking at. So if you're going to
have a product designed for the US market, it has
to be it has to be intelligently designed, with proper commentary,
with great programs. But if it were done well, it
would also be a tremendous financial asset to Victoria.
Speaker 5 (20:56):
And yet they never do.
Speaker 8 (20:58):
Yeah, unders and great I know it. In COVID times,
we had some morning meets where we were sending out
the broadcast to America, and we've also had some late
trot meats where we were broadcasting into Europe as well.
But I agree if I look at your cards, I
sit there and go, I don't know what I'm looking
at sort of things.
Speaker 7 (21:18):
So it is.
Speaker 8 (21:18):
It's it's something where if you are going to be
in your product into another country, you have to give
them an a one product that they can beck confidently
into and understand exactly what they're looking at.
Speaker 5 (21:30):
Because that's the spar abserbation. You know, the the race
the final race of the Driver's Tournament in Australia this
past weekend and a couple of weeks ago, your your
big race down there. I mean, those those two races
would be in the top ten quality races I've seen
all year, and I'm including the thoroughbred races I've watched
(21:51):
this year. They were, and you're not.
Speaker 4 (21:55):
And Clay, there's another thing. You know, Trotch TV doesn't.
I don't think that's still Steve.
Speaker 5 (22:02):
I know they cut it back.
Speaker 8 (22:03):
No, yeah, that's it does the reap like it does
the live vision, but it doesn't have the hosting of
what it used to have.
Speaker 7 (22:11):
You just had some parade ring interviews and that's it.
Speaker 4 (22:14):
But Clai, when they had trots TV going full scheme
about two years ago. It was it was, without a doubt,
the best live production of racing you've ever seen. It
was you could sit there and you could watch every
race over over five hours, which what you need to
do down under we say race every thirty minutes. You're
about ready to shoot yourself. But it was an incredible production.
(22:38):
There's a big market even for us. It's reciprocal. We
should be doing more to internationally as well.
Speaker 7 (22:47):
It was heartbreaking when they cut that.
Speaker 8 (22:49):
I worked as a host, co host and whatnot on
Trot's Vision for probably nearly three years, and I absolutely
loved it.
Speaker 5 (22:57):
You know.
Speaker 8 (22:57):
I mean I used to do the pre race interviews,
do the fall you're tipping and all that as well,
but also.
Speaker 7 (23:03):
Helping the knowledge of a trainer driver, own.
Speaker 8 (23:06):
A breeder sort of thing to the viewers that they
wouldn't get just from watching a few guys that are
just there for the tipping side of thing. It's sort
of brought that other dimension to it. And I believe
Trot's Vision was one of our biggest selling points. And
you know, I know cost cutting has to happen, but
you know when you're cutting back something that's actually promoting
(23:26):
your business to drive income.
Speaker 7 (23:29):
You're almost like it's shooting yourself in the foot.
Speaker 8 (23:31):
So I know, for one, I was shouted, not just
because I'm no longer doing it, but I thought that
it was one of our greatest assets that we unfortunately
did just cut back to bear basics.
Speaker 5 (23:43):
Yeah, we will essentially need we essentially need a TVG
for harness reason.
Speaker 4 (23:50):
Yes, But the problem is, I know john When I
speak to Johnny, he always comes back to the same point,
which is that it's almost impossible in this country to
get the many differing segments of the industry to cooperate
in anything.
Speaker 5 (24:05):
And we can't get when you.
Speaker 4 (24:06):
Talk about graces with twelve or fourteen forces, the drivers
don't want it. When you talk about something else, there's
always some segment that doesn't want something, and there's no
unifying force to effectuate anything.
Speaker 5 (24:20):
I will I agree with that, but I will say,
going back to a comment I made before which we
all agreed to, I don't mean that they have the
ideas or would be the thinkers, but once we involve
the government in putting something together, that is ultimately a
(24:43):
win from their point of view in exchange for them
continuing to provide us with significant money. We then have
someone that actually does have the whip hand in terms
of saying, guys, I know you drivers don't want to
do it, but for us to continu in you doing this,
it has to be more successful financially and we've been
(25:05):
convinced by people that that is one element of making
it more successful financially. So tracks and of course people
don't have a veto on it. They've got a voice,
but ultimately, as in any other business, the people who
are putting up the money ultimately make the call on
(25:25):
the hard things at the end of the day. With
a lot of education from the rest of it.
Speaker 4 (25:32):
Yeah, Well, ultimately, the job of creating a business plan
that makes sense and they can convince government and casinos
that they can get what they want and leave a
business that won't come back to them three years later.
Speaker 7 (25:48):
That's one of the most important things that one can do.
Speaker 5 (25:51):
Yeah, and I'm going to make another comment here just
which I think is really quite important to make this
work for harness racing over the next five years. We
have to have John Campbell be our leader in doing
(26:12):
this because of his refutation, his integrity, his his the
fact that everybody knows him. I'm just reflecting on the
hockey series that just went on, uh, you know internationally,
and I know that having you know, not just take
(26:37):
an example, and that was just a ceremonial role, but
John's would be a substanti role. But having Mario Lemieux
at the hockey game in Montreal meant way more than
Mario Lamieux being at the hockey game in Montreal. It
was investing the whole thing with the people that people
(26:57):
respect the most. And so when it comes to compromisees. Uh,
in addition to the you know, very financial or oriented
people that are part of compromises, you need somebody that
everybody respects to be kind of the the broker in
making the thing go down. I'll just take this just
(27:20):
a little example. It's for North Americans to watch, but
I was watching it this morning. One of our sons
had me watch it. There's a little clip that the
NHL has done, uh, from a promotional point of view.
The most the most interesting part of that, because we've
all seen the games before, are the two coaches talking
to their teams in the dressing room. Uh, you know,
(27:43):
between periods, but in particularly prior to the overtime and
and and you know, I guess that was just saying
nobody has John's credibility with everybody like like John has,
and we need the business guy is to have John
there as part of being beyond as broker and the
(28:05):
guy that you know brings up the elements of our
tradition that we need to be mindful of, but most
importantly have John being the guy who says, on behalf
of the guys that are actually involved in the industry, guys,
we have to do this.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
It's all up to you.
Speaker 5 (28:26):
Now.
Speaker 6 (28:27):
I appreciate the kind words play and all that, but
and I'm not trying to be a pessimist.
Speaker 5 (28:32):
Here at all, but I I just.
Speaker 6 (28:35):
Think back what happened in Victoria, and I'm thinking if
you brought a contingent over here from Victoria and explained
exactly what happened there to the majority of our organizations
that are entities that are you know, control these money
in the various states and provinces, it would just go
(28:55):
in one ear and out and out one out the other.
And that that's credit card ever running out is a
great analogy that they don't think it will.
Speaker 5 (29:03):
And I don't know how you ever convinced them that
you're right, John, that's so important. But I guess I
would say, not that I'm the voice that's going to
say it or would have the credibility to say it.
I would say, based on all of my you know whatever,
forty five years in the business community doing deals and
watching our industry, I know the credit card is going
(29:28):
to disappear because it's so alluring to the governments to
have the credit card disappear. And put to put it bluntly,
for all the incredible advantages of Kentucky, Kentucky's made it
easy for the credit card to disappear everywhere else. And
so we need our guys to understand that that that
(29:53):
you know, it'll be at a different rate. And that's
a really hard thing to manage, because you know, if
you think you've got eight years rather than for your
view is a different one. But to help them understand
that it is going to run out, and we can't
put ourselves in the Victoria position of looking for a
solution after the game's over. But I know it's an
(30:17):
unbelievably hard job. I mean, it just is an unbelievably
hard job. I mean, in a crazy way, It's kind
of the kind of thing you need the governments to
threaten before people get the message. But I think about
Ontario where we were so lucky to get a twenty
year deal, which is pretty incredible. I think the governments
(30:39):
are going to live up to that. But I also
I'll say no, not because anybody said to me, I
know that the renewal of the deal isn't going to
be the deal that we got ten years ago.
Speaker 7 (30:51):
Yeah, but I have to be honest.
Speaker 6 (30:54):
I cannot convince people of that in any way, shape
or form. There's a line in it Clint East with
Dirty Harry movie. A man's got to know his limitations
and I know mine in that regard.
Speaker 5 (31:07):
And so John, would you say the most resistance is
I don't need individuals, but what element of the business
has the gurious resistance?
Speaker 6 (31:16):
It would be the state, the State Horsemen's Association would
be and you know, so there's no there's no organization
for race tracks.
Speaker 7 (31:26):
So it's that's that's.
Speaker 6 (31:29):
Where where you'd run into resistance, because horsemen, you know,
buy and large will trade trade racing dates for purses anytime.
Speaker 5 (31:37):
They historically have done it.
Speaker 6 (31:41):
And Maryland has actually changed their approach with their new reorganization.
Speaker 7 (31:46):
What everything is going on there?
Speaker 6 (31:47):
And there was a really positive article about that they
are cutting dates.
Speaker 5 (31:52):
Uh, and the.
Speaker 6 (31:52):
Horsemen's Association realizes that. But that's a unique stance for
horsemen's organizations.
Speaker 5 (31:59):
They want racing eighth.
Speaker 7 (32:00):
And I.
Speaker 5 (32:02):
Know, John, what you're saying.
Speaker 4 (32:06):
You can't. You're saying you can't convince horsemen that the
gravy train is going to end.
Speaker 7 (32:13):
No, but no, no, I don't think anybody can.
Speaker 5 (32:17):
I don't think anybody.
Speaker 4 (32:19):
Given if you think that, how can one possibly avoid
a disastrous end?
Speaker 5 (32:26):
Because the gravy train will end.
Speaker 4 (32:29):
No business survives when it's losing money this way, and
when it's owned by people who want its extinction, and
the casinos know that with their money that it's just
a matter of time, whether it's four years or five
years or eight years, they're going to get decoupling, and
then the racing is going to be diminished, if not destroyed.
Speaker 5 (32:50):
How what of that.
Speaker 4 (32:51):
Picture the horseman not understand.
Speaker 5 (32:54):
That it hasn't happened yet that.
Speaker 7 (33:00):
With us.
Speaker 8 (33:01):
Let's talk about Victoria here we are run covered by
harness raising Victoria and they put out an annual report
every year so we have it in black and white,
and I've got just the last few years sitting right
in front of me now that I can rear off.
Speaker 7 (33:15):
And we ran.
Speaker 8 (33:17):
Last year at a loss of twenty five point eight
million dollars. That was the harness raising Victoria's net profit loss,
and then with government grants and everything else to cover
that to try and bring us back out in the black.
Speaker 7 (33:32):
So we have it in black and white.
Speaker 8 (33:34):
We're running it a twenty five million dollar loss, the
previous year twenty two million dollar loss, the prior year
nine million dollar loss, and.
Speaker 7 (33:42):
So on and so on.
Speaker 8 (33:43):
So we have to believe it because we can see
it in black and white. Do you I'm not how
you'd sure your states or tracks and that are set up.
You obviously don't have stuff like this where it is
in black and white to show exactly where the government's
kicking in a certain amount of money that once it
drives up, then all of a sudden, we could run
(34:04):
HIV with zero staff and still run a loss. You know,
it's showing that our business model at the moment is
just not functionable.
Speaker 7 (34:12):
Without the government support.
Speaker 8 (34:14):
Surely, your horsemen, if they saw reports like that, would
have to open up their eyes and believe it.
Speaker 5 (34:20):
Yeah, I guess, so I'd say that I agree with
that that action or people who would do But you know,
we're all hopers. But I mean, to me the most
telling part of all. But I also know, I mean,
I write it all the time and I get very
little reaction. You just need to look at the front
page of the USTA Racing Page, which I look at
(34:43):
every day for you know, the trees or results, and
it tells you where the wagering is this year relative
to where it was last year. And there's been some
weather this year, but in aggregate the wagering is down
thirteen and a half percent year to date. The number
of dates is down eight percent, so it's really eight percent,
(35:04):
but it was seven percent last year. So in the
last two years we're on track to have lost fifty
percent of our wagering. You and you know, if you
project that out, you need only go another five years
to INFX say our win is going to be half
(35:26):
of what it was two years ago. And you just
look at that and say, if you're wagering, even if
you're not making any money on it declines to that level.
How do the governments not say, guys, we just at best,
we will only cut you back spending that your own
(35:48):
business is going down. And you then look at that
and NFL say, coming back to John's point, your only
solution on your own at that point is to win
effects say, we will agree to drastically slash dates to
keep our base purst at a at a level that
makes it worth while driving to the track. But but
(36:11):
I think you're I think we're all we're all talking
about a very very difficult problem, which is how do
you get done her on it when he stopped me
from being a polyada in terms of saying, how do
you actually convince people that is going to run out
if we don't change and don't wait till you're looking
(36:34):
over the cliff, because it's going to be hard for
you to decide to become a medical doctor at that point.
Speaker 8 (36:40):
You know what, because now our turnover is down fourteen
point nine percent for the last year, so we're on
the same levels as you.
Speaker 4 (36:48):
Yeah, but I think Stephen and you know this could
maybe get Robert into it also for New Zealand. But
it seems to me that the problem is the same
everywhere in that this the true and the effect, And
I guess the cause of this problem of the diminishing
wagering and the decline of racing is not a story
(37:11):
that the people in the industry are hearing every day
from those that are leading the industry.
Speaker 5 (37:15):
You just had a.
Speaker 4 (37:15):
Sale in New Zealand that got promoted as a tremendous
sale and it had some the highest sale topper in
New Zealand history. But if you had a lower level
or mid level.
Speaker 5 (37:26):
Horse, you've got crucified.
Speaker 4 (37:29):
And you also had you also had in a country
that it's unlikely you could have more than three or
four hundred thousand dollars winners in New Zealand for a
two year old, for example, they had Robert you would
know exactly, but they probably had thirty horses sell for
one hundred thousand. There's a there's no awareness, no conscious
(37:52):
awareness of the cliff, and you're just not having anybody
point out the reality that you have to make a
drastic change to induce to come up with a program
that has any potential, and people don't seem that they
don't hear that enough.
Speaker 5 (38:13):
Yeah. The part of the explanation for that is part
of the explanation for that is because that's true everywhere.
I mean, they're all there, still will be for quite
a period of time. Enough guys with enough money to
buy the best courses or what they think are the
best horses. But that doesn't solve the overall problem for
(38:34):
the industry. I mean, yes, yes, it solves the problem
or mitigates the problem for the very top end breeders.
It's tough on the lower end breeders, but it doesn't
solve the problem of which I think is the ultimate problem,
which is between the casinos, but more importantly the government saying,
(38:57):
unless you guys can give us a credible plan, we
have to cut back. And when you cry our answers, well,
well recent Kentucky, that seems to be a good place
for you.
Speaker 7 (39:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (39:09):
What do you have to say, Rabert about New Zealand
after you've heard all the points about North America and Australian.
Speaker 9 (39:18):
Well, I think, gentlemen, we're a little bit different than
all these other jurisdictions. I mean, to be fair, our
total lize a turnover this year currently is tracking the
head of last year, which I think tracked ahead of
the previous year only probably in that three to four percent,
but it is positive Obviously for us, the major change
(39:40):
with positive change was the taking over of our tab
totalized agency board well fifty percent by end tame Stroke Ladbrooks,
and they have reinvigorated the whole betting environment in New
Zealand and that's led to increased revenue you into the industry.
(40:01):
So from our point of view, and the deal we
have is just a year and a half into a
five year deal. So I mean our states went up
I think another ten million last year and we'll probably
go up a little bit more than that this year.
So all of that is incredibly positive. I mean we're
(40:24):
a country of five and a half million and the
South Island has a population of one and a half million,
and probably more than fifty percent of all our racing
product is in the South Island. And a little bit
like Australia, we've been brought up on a culture of rugby,
racing and beer. So in New Zealand, I mean, racing
(40:47):
is quite It may be not so much in the
younger generation, but certainly in the middle aged and older generation,
racing is in you know this part of your DNA.
Our our real problem is the fact that our industry
has been run by our clubs and they really in
(41:09):
terms of that we've been going backwards. We've got some
really good assets and racetracks, but they are run by
clubs which are really amateur, amateur at the best. And
we've just had a big change in our governance at
HRNZ and.
Speaker 5 (41:30):
Our real worry.
Speaker 9 (41:31):
Is that from an administration point of view, we don't
get to act together in terms of how we run
our assets that are our tracks and the entertainment product.
So on one half we're in a very positive space,
another half we're just and it's our own fault, it's
(41:52):
nobody else's fault. And to that point, our latest breathing
season we'll see our numbers drop by about twenty percent,
So it's quite it's an enigma in a way, and
in terms of so much positivity, but down in the
grassroots we just seem to be losing, losing our core.
Speaker 5 (42:13):
Pete.
Speaker 9 (42:14):
We're like we've got an aeroplane where business class and
first class are full, but economy class is empty.
Speaker 5 (42:22):
What did n teen do to make it so much better?
Speaker 9 (42:26):
Well, well, I mean it's easy when you take over
from someone who was not very good and our previous
tav with semi government run operation. This is a private
run will operated here. They know how to market, they
know the product, and they just are a business.
Speaker 7 (42:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (42:51):
Well, and that's why we need some business people involved,
because you're right that always mixing, that always mixing better.
And but again, if we could put we we should
do the same with the idea of putting our best
assets and steaks together and then agreeing on a wagering
(43:13):
operator or a professional organization that as far as as
far as they're involvement in our business, is totally committed
to maximizing the financial returns of the business. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (43:25):
Yeah, I think everything with that. Getting it done is
the problem.
Speaker 5 (43:30):
Yeah, well, no, we have to get everyone together first, right,
that's yeah.
Speaker 9 (43:36):
Can I just add one thing when I listen to
your gentlemen talk about you know, the States particularly and
that so much of it seems to be an external
problem regarding casinos or government departments in New Zealand, we
don't have that problem. And how problems, lucky for us,
are all internal. As we're sitting on something that that
(44:00):
team go forward and then's going forward, we just don't
have the right people in the bridge of the shop
to make sure we take it to where it needs
to go. So it's an internal issues.
Speaker 4 (44:12):
Yeah, in that regards, you're quite lucky, oh very much.
Speaker 9 (44:15):
So we just we've just got to stage a mutiny
and get rid of the captain and the crew.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
All right, gentlemen, gentlemen, we are moving to the one
hour point, so we'll just wrap it up in five minutes.
Speaker 3 (44:30):
Does that sound good?
Speaker 5 (44:32):
Absolutely? On my behalf.
Speaker 4 (44:34):
I just wanted to thank everybody, especially Uh, I know Clay.
It was very busy in Canada John also, and I
think hopefully that what everybody's been saying will get heard
by the industry and perhaps one could find a way
to achieve what Clay is pushing for. It requires the
(44:56):
right people and the rape spirit and it is the
right solution if it can be if it can be achieved.
But again, thank you to John, to Clay, to Steve,
and to Robert and to you Freddie for putting it together.
And perhaps there could be some follow up later, but
it's a nice start.
Speaker 1 (45:14):
One thing that I'm going to add is I have
never seen a business plan done for our sport. Maybe
we should get together and start working on a business
plan for the whole sport.
Speaker 3 (45:24):
John, what are your thoughts on.
Speaker 6 (45:25):
That, Yeah, that would be a really good start, and
that I really agree with everything that Clay has said
about the future and certainly how precarious our situation is.
But boy, it's tough to get to everybody on the
same page, even tough to anybody who acknowledge that this
(45:46):
isn't going to last forever and you know that therein
lies the problem.
Speaker 4 (45:51):
Although what Clay is saying, and what I'm trying to
suggest too, that I think Cley and I are sort
of on the same path is if you do come
up with a good plan and you do structure for
the long term, that the long term.
Speaker 5 (46:06):
Can be there.
Speaker 4 (46:07):
But you need independence, you need control of the product,
you need a good product, and you need unity of
mass so you can control your own destiny.
Speaker 9 (46:18):
Can I just add one thing? In twenty twenty six
next year, the World Protting Organization is going to be
at their conferences in New Zealand. It seems some previous
ones that's been just a junket for everyone. Why can't
something like that see the basis for going forward?
Speaker 7 (46:39):
You bring up a great point.
Speaker 6 (46:41):
I was actually at the World Trotting Conference in Germany,
the last one they had to kind of smoke there.
I think that is the most underutilized organization in the
world for harness raising. They've got the leaders from the
United States, Canada, down Under up and all of them
(47:02):
put on great events. And to have them not sharing
that information of what works what doesn't work, I couldn't
agree more that that that organization. If they have to
follow through more in between meetings than what they do,
that's part of the problem. They need every three years
and then it just fallster the practice and nothing.
Speaker 7 (47:24):
Really gets followed through.
Speaker 6 (47:25):
But I just think that that's an organization that could
really move harness racing forward, you know, in the future.
But again I'm not involved with it, but I would
like to see them take a more active role.
Speaker 5 (47:41):
Okay, just before.
Speaker 8 (47:43):
I sign off, to throw towards John's point about getting
people to understand you know, I think you guys maybe
need to use Victoria. It's a little bit of a
proving point to your people, is that we were one
of the best states, well in the biggest states when
it comes the racing and sort of you know, probably
equal number one, always number one for a long long time,
(48:06):
and we are now the bottom dwellers of Australian racing.
Speaker 7 (48:10):
There's no ifs or buts about that.
Speaker 8 (48:12):
We are really well below the other major states. And
if they don't think it can happen, just point them
towards us. They'll say it can happen, and it has
happened here and where we are a long way out.
Speaker 7 (48:24):
Of trying to dig out of this hole.
Speaker 8 (48:25):
You know, we're not going to say much change in
the next three to five years before we start seeing
a little bit of daylight.
Speaker 3 (48:32):
With that, I'm going to close the show out.
Speaker 2 (48:34):
Not yet, I was since ready nobody has asked the
ancient handicaper, what do you want? Basically, what I would
want is pickable winners. I want a race where I
can handicap the race, and I know everybody in there
(48:57):
is going all out.
Speaker 5 (48:59):
Or they're not.
Speaker 2 (49:01):
I know why they're not, because, well, he's prepping for
this or prepping for that. You're asking me to bet
my money.
Speaker 5 (49:10):
Well, if you want me.
Speaker 2 (49:12):
To do that, you've got to give me a good
reason to do it. Years back, we had good reasons. Unfortunately,
there's so much else going on for the competition of
the wagering dollar, especially with sports wagering.
Speaker 7 (49:31):
All you have to do is listen to.
Speaker 2 (49:33):
Any radio station, and all they're talking about is, well,
you can bet this, you can bet that, raft Kingspanduel, etc. No,
we need vetable racing. Don't give me fifteen horses and
a goddamn race, because I wouldn't even think about looking
at her. I can't even begin to figure out, well,
(49:56):
who might be first, who might be second at the
first recorder. I want pickable winners, sensible races. Ten horses
on a big track, eight horses on a small track.
Speaker 7 (50:09):
That's fine, Okay, Okay.
Speaker 3 (50:12):
With that, I'm going to close the show out. Gordon.
Speaker 1 (50:15):
I want to thank you for bringing everyone together. I
personally thank John for joining us, Clay, Robert and Steve
and Bob. I think we all did a great job
here and we can take it from there.
Speaker 5 (50:28):
It was fun, guys. Thanks, it was fun again, all right,
thank you?
Speaker 3 (50:34):
Okay, Now over to Andy.
Speaker 5 (50:37):
Thanks Fred.
Speaker 10 (50:37):
I don't know what I'm going to be writing about
for next Monday's Keeping Pace column, but I'm working with
Paul Report on a story about the new Standard bed
training facility in Versailles, Kentucky. That's going to be a
story coming out in the next couple of days that
I think folks are going to be interested in.
Speaker 7 (50:55):
I hope everybody reads it.
Speaker 5 (50:56):
I hope everybody.
Speaker 10 (50:56):
Reads the column we posted this week that keep paste
on that big Pennsylvania scandal involving the corticosteroid doc You.
Speaker 5 (51:07):
Brett, Thanks, thank you.
Speaker 3 (51:09):
Andy.
Speaker 1 (51:10):
That's a wrap for this week's show. Thanks for listening,
and please join us again next week
Speaker 5 (51:17):
The Hunness Racing Alumni Show
Welcome to this week's Harness Racing Alumni Show. I'm Freddie
Hudson and I'm here today with Trade Martin, Bob Marx
and Andy Cohen.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
The Harness Racing Alumni Show with your host Freddie Hudson
and Trade Martin.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
On this week's show, we have assembled an international panel
to discuss harness racing.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
The panel consists of.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
International owner and breeder Gordon Banks, Hall of Fame, driver
and the CEO of the Hamiltonian Society, John Campbell from Canada.
We have thoroughbred and standardbred owner and breeder, the former
CEO of Woodbine Entertainment, Clay Horner from Australia, trainer driver, owner,
the co host of Trot Vision and the Vice president
(00:46):
of the Victorian Trainer and Drivers Association, Steve Steve. And
from New Zealand, standardbred owner and breeder Robert le Laura.
Welcome to the Harness Racing Alumni Show, gentlemen. Now Gordon
(01:06):
is going to be conducting this and so I'm switching
over to Gordon too for him to take over.
Speaker 4 (01:13):
Well, I appreciate that, and I wanted to thank everybody
for participating. And I have a feeling it might be
a little difficult to speak with six people on this
call at the same time, but we could try just
to set the stage a little bit. I think the
best we can do is try to see if we
(01:33):
can between us come up with some ideas. It can
lead to something that moves the industry forward, because it's
certainly in a lot of difficulty and at a turning
point down under. And here in the stage, I don't
want to set too much of a stage. I want
everybody to say whatever it is that they think could
be relevant and helpful. And with that I think I
(01:57):
should really open up. I could say that for me,
what I see in the States is a real problem
in that you have an industry that doesn't own its product,
which really can't make use of its product, which is simulcasting.
It has ownership with casinos that wants its demise, It
(02:20):
has a product that deteriorated, and it doesn't really own
assets that enable the business to succeed, and has no
capability of immediate profitability or even medium term profitability because
of the limited amount of money that it can make
on direct racing. So with that, and you have an
organization in the USKA it hasn't yet been effective.
Speaker 5 (02:44):
So it leads to the question.
Speaker 4 (02:46):
Of what can North America do to salvage harness racing
and to move it forward given those set of facts.
Speaker 5 (02:54):
And then in.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
Australia, especially where Stephen is you have a major problem
in Victoria where they've lost us a fortune and that's.
Speaker 5 (03:03):
A major point of discussion.
Speaker 4 (03:04):
And in New Zealand, Roberts are going to be able
to discuss better the situation there, which is probably more
hopeful than all the other jurisdictions, but has its issues
as well. So with that, I think I sort of
have to open it up to everybody and see where
it goes. I think the industry needs this discussion and
there shouldn't be any restrictions on it.
Speaker 5 (03:26):
Coordinate Clay. I'll just have one observation to start off
from my perspective, and maybe people can think about this
in terms of whether it resonates with them or not.
I'm looking at not specifically Canada, although would mind qualifies
sort of on the fringes of this. But if I
(03:48):
look at the US racing team and look at the
organizations that are successful and have a prospect of being successful,
and this is completely consistent with your comment to begin with,
so who are they? Their Churchill which owns its product,
There's Stronik, which owns its product but doesn't want to
(04:10):
be in the business. There's Nira and in particular with
a crown jewel like Saratoga, and the New Belmont, which
is a not for profit organization, so committed only to
the business and with enough scale to own their distribution
or control their distribution. And then you have Keemland on
(04:36):
a smaller scale running an elite boutique business, but again
one that everybody has to have and take. So my
biggest observation from a business point of view would be
to succeed in the long run, it requires that the
(04:59):
principal layers in the business are people that have an
elite quality product and own their own distribution, hopefully with
multi multi assets to sell. Woodbines fortunate in that regard
that has both the standard bread and the thoroughbred business.
(05:21):
But personally, I think the future of tracks that are
solo organizations or operations or loose amalgamation of tracks that
are owned by casinos. I would just venture to everybody
(05:41):
that within ten years all of those will be gone.
So the alternative is what can we do and build
out of three or four organizations that have enough prestige
qual would be a product and control enough of their
(06:03):
distribution to possibly make it in the long term.
Speaker 4 (06:07):
Well, all I can say is I agree hundred percent.
I think everybody else has to see as you know
that you gave them a big mouthful. You and I
have sometimes discussed these things, John, but that I think
that's what does everybody think about that?
Speaker 5 (06:21):
What do you think? Cut?
Speaker 3 (06:23):
So I was Quay who said that.
Speaker 5 (06:26):
I'm sorry, what do you think? John? Well, Uh, I
don't disagree.
Speaker 6 (06:32):
And the problem we have is any kind of consensus
or unity within the game. You know, in my opinion,
we don't have a very good business model and we
can't get a unified voice or agreement to change it.
You know, we're over exposed. We have tracks that are
(06:54):
racing too much. The public has made it clear they
want competitive racing with big field, and we go out
of our way not to give them that. And I
don't know what the timeframe is for that, but it's
there's certainly a finite number at the end of the
line here if we don't, you know, change our our
(07:17):
business model in regards.
Speaker 5 (07:19):
To dates the quality of the fields.
Speaker 6 (07:21):
The size of the fields, because that's what the public wants.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
Yeah, Freddy, here, I agree with you, John One.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
We need to start mixing it up a little bit
and make the product more attractive. And then once once
we have the product more attractive, we can start marketing it.
Speaker 6 (07:38):
Yes, but then you know, we still have that problem
that of the percentage of the bets that's fed off
track now, and the tracks get such a small percent
of that. And let's be honest, people are not coming
back to the track except on our big events, and
that's why we have to put all our effort and
resources into making our big events the best they possibly
(08:01):
can and expose people in that way. So we still
have the problem with the majority of the bets coming
in from out a off track and the small percent
of what the tracks and the horsemen gained from that.
Speaker 5 (08:17):
And you're exactly right on that, John, And the problem
or the issue to solve is a lot of that
is due to the casino companies not having any real
interest in it being different from that. And so if
you were, you know, to look in a grand way,
(08:37):
if you said, okay, let's put together an amalgam of woodbine,
the Meadowlands, the Red Mile when they race, you know,
maybe Ohio, although they're tied up with a casino company,
and think about whether there's another product that could be
(08:58):
a quality product, and say, these tracks need to come
together as one organization for betting purposes and coordinate their schedules,
coordinate their race programs, coordinate the sharing of big races,
(09:21):
and most importantly, do everything they can to have be
there our our peri mutual network that is going to
get the majority of the betting, or enough of the
betting so instead of it being three percent at the
(09:43):
end of the day, it's never going to go back
to being twenty. But could we put together that amaldum
of players and have enough product of a quality product
to allow the tracks to get twelve percent?
Speaker 4 (09:56):
Yak, I think that's the key. I think otherwise you
start in a situation where the tracks cannot possibly make money.
And how a business that can't make money on its
direct product can succeed over time and live over time,
I don't see it, you know. And the other thing
I think is I wonder if one can try to
(10:21):
develop sort of a win win win situation between the governments,
the casinos and racing whereby over a period of five
or ten years, one's transitioning to a situation where racing
is owned by people that want racing to succeed, and
(10:42):
the casinos clearly want us out. They're going to do
everything they can to push for decoupling. It's an inevitable
that it's going to come. What if we work with
the casinos in the States to let them, at some
point seven ten years out be released from the connection
racing and in the in the meantime, what they have
(11:04):
to do is move the racing to some sort of
much less expensive geographical location in whatever state or provinces
in Well, give that asset.
Speaker 5 (11:15):
It's going to I think I think there's another gem
of an idea in there, because I think the other
long term threat to racing is the governments will say,
you know, particularly in an era where governments are being
you know cut down or or you know, being required
to have less operating tenants, racing is a very easy
(11:37):
place for state governments to look at it and say, well,
if we're going to do the the federal government in
the US is doing, uh rate, you know, let's let's start.
We'll cut the racing money by half. But but if
we could go to the States and on Ontario in
Canada and say we collectively can do over time with
(12:00):
less government money, but we need this transition period and
we need you to be resolute partners of ours and
doing that. And part of that is the legislative peace
of how we're going to let the casino companies partially
off the hook, maybe part totally off the hook over time.
(12:25):
And we do not have enough negotiating leverage as tracks
and horse people to do that, but you do because
they're completely subject to your jurisdiction in that regard. And collectively,
coming back to the point, we want to fashion a
win win win that allows them to get out of
(12:45):
what they don't want to do, allow you government to
ultimately have to put in less collective money, but also
gives us the time to chart our own destiny doing
this together.
Speaker 6 (12:58):
Again.
Speaker 7 (13:00):
I'm sorry if I can jump in there.
Speaker 8 (13:03):
Exactly what you're saying right now is what we are
experiencing victoria here in Australia is we didn't have well,
we did have time, it wasn't used up properly. Our
government basically is broke, and they come to us and
they said a few years ago that we need to
start living within our means. And unfortunately, when the government's
showing lots of grants and everything else, I think it's
(13:25):
going to continue on.
Speaker 7 (13:26):
You know, Daddy's credit cards never going to run out,
and the government have.
Speaker 8 (13:30):
Basically cut that credit card off from Victoria this year
and we've had massive cuts and we have no future fund,
so we've got nothing to fall back on unless we
can organize a deal to sell some land or whatever else.
But what you're just saying about having enough time to transition,
(13:50):
get yourself into the right position, so you do have
a future fund to set yourself up going forward and
not run into the brick wall that we've run into.
Speaker 7 (14:00):
Victoria.
Speaker 8 (14:00):
We're running for state money now that's lower than what
we were racing for back in twenty thirteen. You know,
we're talking twelve or thirteen years ago. We were racing
for more money. And it's getting extremely hard to survive
down here. These other states in Australia that are actually
doing quite well. So it's not just Australian racing. It's
(14:20):
really directed to Victoria. And that's because we were one
of the strongest states and we had so much government support,
and as soon as that got taken away, we realized
we just had nothing built up underneath that government support.
Speaker 4 (14:34):
Yeah, I mean, but New sohuth Wales which is very
successful successful largely because they sold Harold Parrak for about
two hundred million or one hundred and fifty million. They've
been able Yeah, they've been able to subsidize based on
that and the income from that. And that's what I
was thinking too to what Clan I were both discussing
that if it's a wig win at the end of
(14:57):
the day, you want racing to not only have only
that wants racing to succeed, but you wanted to have
an underlying real estate asset. And if one can broke
or a deal where the casinos cooperate in getting racing
that underlying land asset in a very inexpensive area of
it's well chosen that perhaps in ten years is worth
(15:20):
an awful lot more. It's another backstop for racing, not
just the funding but the land that it gives racing.
There's so many things that can be done, but it
requires cooperation between the legislative state government, the ownership of
the casino ownership and racing. And to me, the biggest
problem is how and who represents racing? How does one
(15:42):
move it from how does how do you effectuate clay
the vision you have?
Speaker 5 (15:47):
Who would do it? Well? I think what you do
is put together a group of I'll call it the
CEOs that are investigating in racing, together with with John
and the and the Hambletonian Society, and maybe I'd suggest
a couple of other uh people who are just fantastically
(16:09):
successful business thinkers. UH. So we become, we become we
get more than just our shared history, but we get
people who have transformed other industries to work with us
in thinking about the way you transform, uh, you transform
an industry and we go at that collectively. I mean, again,
(16:32):
another incredible example of what you're talking about in terms
of saying, capitalize on the value of our real estate
and move to a place where we can get the distribution.
But you know, not in a situation where you have
to own the land. Is you know Kentucky Downs. I mean,
obviously it's a very short, short meat, but the persons
(16:54):
are astronomical and and by definition that means that every
wagering facil has to carry that product as the top
product of the top product of the time and I
that you know, that would be part of all of that,
(17:14):
together with uh, you know, getting the governments to invest
in it at the outset and coming up with again
a reasonable schedule of when our races are going to
be on so we maximize the opportunities for the tracks
that are in rotation at any particular time. I'll say,
(17:40):
probably the biggest thing I've learned during my short time
as a thoroughbred owner, when you know, I've been lucky
enough going you know, a couple of great parts of
Great Court is one of the great asset the thoroughbred
business has. And I'm thinking about Australia and New Zealand
(18:00):
in this regard is the inter truly international nature of
the racing. So I look at it and someone would
say to me, how is your viewership of racing changed
from the way it was ten years ago, let alone
twenty years ago. I look at it and say, okay,
I watch most of my racing on the weekend, but
(18:24):
in the summer a large part of that is watching
the English, Irish and French thoroughbred racing. For my thoroughbred content,
maybe a little bit of Saratoga, but I would say
just myself. The one of the great observations I have
(18:44):
of European harness racing and Australasia harness racing is the
big fields that you have, because again, if we're going
to be a competitive long term product, we have to
have twelve horses on the race track, and because you know,
for the for the reasons we all for the reasons
(19:06):
we all know, but but again we know that means
we have to have the purses that make that work
for the guys who and women that own those horses.
But a but a part of it that I think
we could do better at is incorporating the Australasian racing
(19:27):
into the North American calendar and educating our clients about that,
and vice and vice versa, and maybe a little of
it from France. I mean, I historically that you know, watched,
maybe watch the pre Marique every year. That'd be the
only race I've watched. And I still don't watch a
great deal. But I can tell you I just marvel
(19:47):
when I watch a race and I've been sending you know,
an overnight race where there are fifteen trotters and they
trot three wide the whole way. I mean, it's just
I mean, let's face it, it's ten times more interesting,
That's true.
Speaker 7 (20:02):
Is it interesting?
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Always?
Speaker 5 (20:04):
It puntable and puntable and puntable, right, I mean business
perms puntable more importantly, but it's also interesting.
Speaker 4 (20:14):
But one of the difficulties there, Steve, I also have
thought for a long time there should be much more
Australian racing here, and one of the former heads of
Victorian Racing and we were trying to work together on
introducing it here in the States in an intelligent fashion
where the program where programs would be available to North
Americans in a in a fashion that we could understand.
(20:38):
Because most Americans, if they look at your form, wouldn't
know what they're looking at. So if you're going to
have a product designed for the US market, it has
to be it has to be intelligently designed, with proper commentary,
with great programs. But if it were done well, it
would also be a tremendous financial asset to Victoria.
Speaker 5 (20:56):
And yet they never do.
Speaker 8 (20:58):
Yeah, unders and great I know it. In COVID times,
we had some morning meets where we were sending out
the broadcast to America, and we've also had some late
trot meats where we were broadcasting into Europe as well.
But I agree if I look at your cards, I
sit there and go, I don't know what I'm looking
at sort of things.
Speaker 7 (21:18):
So it is.
Speaker 8 (21:18):
It's it's something where if you are going to be
in your product into another country, you have to give
them an a one product that they can beck confidently
into and understand exactly what they're looking at.
Speaker 5 (21:30):
Because that's the spar abserbation. You know, the the race
the final race of the Driver's Tournament in Australia this
past weekend and a couple of weeks ago, your your
big race down there. I mean, those those two races
would be in the top ten quality races I've seen
all year, and I'm including the thoroughbred races I've watched
(21:51):
this year. They were, and you're not.
Speaker 4 (21:55):
And Clay, there's another thing. You know, Trotch TV doesn't.
I don't think that's still Steve.
Speaker 5 (22:02):
I know they cut it back.
Speaker 8 (22:03):
No, yeah, that's it does the reap like it does
the live vision, but it doesn't have the hosting of
what it used to have.
Speaker 7 (22:11):
You just had some parade ring interviews and that's it.
Speaker 4 (22:14):
But Clai, when they had trots TV going full scheme
about two years ago. It was it was, without a doubt,
the best live production of racing you've ever seen. It
was you could sit there and you could watch every
race over over five hours, which what you need to
do down under we say race every thirty minutes. You're
about ready to shoot yourself. But it was an incredible production.
(22:38):
There's a big market even for us. It's reciprocal. We
should be doing more to internationally as well.
Speaker 7 (22:47):
It was heartbreaking when they cut that.
Speaker 8 (22:49):
I worked as a host, co host and whatnot on
Trot's Vision for probably nearly three years, and I absolutely
loved it.
Speaker 5 (22:57):
You know.
Speaker 8 (22:57):
I mean I used to do the pre race interviews,
do the fall you're tipping and all that as well,
but also.
Speaker 7 (23:03):
Helping the knowledge of a trainer driver, own.
Speaker 8 (23:06):
A breeder sort of thing to the viewers that they
wouldn't get just from watching a few guys that are
just there for the tipping side of thing. It's sort
of brought that other dimension to it. And I believe
Trot's Vision was one of our biggest selling points. And
you know, I know cost cutting has to happen, but
you know when you're cutting back something that's actually promoting
(23:26):
your business to drive income.
Speaker 7 (23:29):
You're almost like it's shooting yourself in the foot.
Speaker 8 (23:31):
So I know, for one, I was shouted, not just
because I'm no longer doing it, but I thought that
it was one of our greatest assets that we unfortunately
did just cut back to bear basics.
Speaker 5 (23:43):
Yeah, we will essentially need we essentially need a TVG
for harness reason.
Speaker 4 (23:50):
Yes, But the problem is, I know john When I
speak to Johnny, he always comes back to the same point,
which is that it's almost impossible in this country to
get the many differing segments of the industry to cooperate
in anything.
Speaker 5 (24:05):
And we can't get when you.
Speaker 4 (24:06):
Talk about graces with twelve or fourteen forces, the drivers
don't want it. When you talk about something else, there's
always some segment that doesn't want something, and there's no
unifying force to effectuate anything.
Speaker 5 (24:20):
I will I agree with that, but I will say,
going back to a comment I made before which we
all agreed to, I don't mean that they have the
ideas or would be the thinkers, but once we involve
the government in putting something together, that is ultimately a
(24:43):
win from their point of view in exchange for them
continuing to provide us with significant money. We then have
someone that actually does have the whip hand in terms
of saying, guys, I know you drivers don't want to
do it, but for us to continu in you doing this,
it has to be more successful financially and we've been
(25:05):
convinced by people that that is one element of making
it more successful financially. So tracks and of course people
don't have a veto on it. They've got a voice,
but ultimately, as in any other business, the people who
are putting up the money ultimately make the call on
(25:25):
the hard things at the end of the day. With
a lot of education from the rest of it.
Speaker 4 (25:32):
Yeah, Well, ultimately, the job of creating a business plan
that makes sense and they can convince government and casinos
that they can get what they want and leave a
business that won't come back to them three years later.
Speaker 7 (25:48):
That's one of the most important things that one can do.
Speaker 5 (25:51):
Yeah, and I'm going to make another comment here just
which I think is really quite important to make this
work for harness racing over the next five years. We
have to have John Campbell be our leader in doing
(26:12):
this because of his refutation, his integrity, his his the
fact that everybody knows him. I'm just reflecting on the
hockey series that just went on, uh, you know internationally,
and I know that having you know, not just take
(26:37):
an example, and that was just a ceremonial role, but
John's would be a substanti role. But having Mario Lemieux
at the hockey game in Montreal meant way more than
Mario Lamieux being at the hockey game in Montreal. It
was investing the whole thing with the people that people
(26:57):
respect the most. And so when it comes to compromisees. Uh,
in addition to the you know, very financial or oriented
people that are part of compromises, you need somebody that
everybody respects to be kind of the the broker in
making the thing go down. I'll just take this just
(27:20):
a little example. It's for North Americans to watch, but
I was watching it this morning. One of our sons
had me watch it. There's a little clip that the
NHL has done, uh, from a promotional point of view.
The most the most interesting part of that, because we've
all seen the games before, are the two coaches talking
to their teams in the dressing room. Uh, you know,
(27:43):
between periods, but in particularly prior to the overtime and
and and you know, I guess that was just saying
nobody has John's credibility with everybody like like John has,
and we need the business guy is to have John
there as part of being beyond as broker and the
(28:05):
guy that you know brings up the elements of our
tradition that we need to be mindful of, but most
importantly have John being the guy who says, on behalf
of the guys that are actually involved in the industry, guys,
we have to do this.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
It's all up to you.
Speaker 5 (28:26):
Now.
Speaker 6 (28:27):
I appreciate the kind words play and all that, but
and I'm not trying to be a pessimist.
Speaker 5 (28:32):
Here at all, but I I just.
Speaker 6 (28:35):
Think back what happened in Victoria, and I'm thinking if
you brought a contingent over here from Victoria and explained
exactly what happened there to the majority of our organizations
that are entities that are you know, control these money
in the various states and provinces, it would just go
(28:55):
in one ear and out and out one out the other.
And that that's credit card ever running out is a
great analogy that they don't think it will.
Speaker 5 (29:03):
And I don't know how you ever convinced them that
you're right, John, that's so important. But I guess I
would say, not that I'm the voice that's going to
say it or would have the credibility to say it.
I would say, based on all of my you know whatever,
forty five years in the business community doing deals and
watching our industry, I know the credit card is going
(29:28):
to disappear because it's so alluring to the governments to
have the credit card disappear. And put to put it bluntly,
for all the incredible advantages of Kentucky, Kentucky's made it
easy for the credit card to disappear everywhere else. And
so we need our guys to understand that that that
(29:53):
you know, it'll be at a different rate. And that's
a really hard thing to manage, because you know, if
you think you've got eight years rather than for your
view is a different one. But to help them understand
that it is going to run out, and we can't
put ourselves in the Victoria position of looking for a
solution after the game's over. But I know it's an
(30:17):
unbelievably hard job. I mean, it just is an unbelievably
hard job. I mean, in a crazy way, It's kind
of the kind of thing you need the governments to
threaten before people get the message. But I think about
Ontario where we were so lucky to get a twenty
year deal, which is pretty incredible. I think the governments
(30:39):
are going to live up to that. But I also
I'll say no, not because anybody said to me, I
know that the renewal of the deal isn't going to
be the deal that we got ten years ago.
Speaker 7 (30:51):
Yeah, but I have to be honest.
Speaker 6 (30:54):
I cannot convince people of that in any way, shape
or form. There's a line in it Clint East with
Dirty Harry movie. A man's got to know his limitations
and I know mine in that regard.
Speaker 5 (31:07):
And so John, would you say the most resistance is
I don't need individuals, but what element of the business
has the gurious resistance?
Speaker 6 (31:16):
It would be the state, the State Horsemen's Association would
be and you know, so there's no there's no organization
for race tracks.
Speaker 7 (31:26):
So it's that's that's.
Speaker 6 (31:29):
Where where you'd run into resistance, because horsemen, you know,
buy and large will trade trade racing dates for purses anytime.
Speaker 5 (31:37):
They historically have done it.
Speaker 6 (31:41):
And Maryland has actually changed their approach with their new reorganization.
Speaker 7 (31:46):
What everything is going on there?
Speaker 6 (31:47):
And there was a really positive article about that they
are cutting dates.
Speaker 5 (31:52):
Uh, and the.
Speaker 6 (31:52):
Horsemen's Association realizes that. But that's a unique stance for
horsemen's organizations.
Speaker 5 (31:59):
They want racing eighth.
Speaker 7 (32:00):
And I.
Speaker 5 (32:02):
Know, John, what you're saying.
Speaker 4 (32:06):
You can't. You're saying you can't convince horsemen that the
gravy train is going to end.
Speaker 7 (32:13):
No, but no, no, I don't think anybody can.
Speaker 5 (32:17):
I don't think anybody.
Speaker 4 (32:19):
Given if you think that, how can one possibly avoid
a disastrous end?
Speaker 5 (32:26):
Because the gravy train will end.
Speaker 4 (32:29):
No business survives when it's losing money this way, and
when it's owned by people who want its extinction, and
the casinos know that with their money that it's just
a matter of time, whether it's four years or five
years or eight years, they're going to get decoupling, and
then the racing is going to be diminished, if not destroyed.
Speaker 5 (32:50):
How what of that.
Speaker 4 (32:51):
Picture the horseman not understand.
Speaker 5 (32:54):
That it hasn't happened yet that.
Speaker 7 (33:00):
With us.
Speaker 8 (33:01):
Let's talk about Victoria here we are run covered by
harness raising Victoria and they put out an annual report
every year so we have it in black and white,
and I've got just the last few years sitting right
in front of me now that I can rear off.
Speaker 7 (33:15):
And we ran.
Speaker 8 (33:17):
Last year at a loss of twenty five point eight
million dollars. That was the harness raising Victoria's net profit loss,
and then with government grants and everything else to cover
that to try and bring us back out in the black.
Speaker 7 (33:32):
So we have it in black and white.
Speaker 8 (33:34):
We're running it a twenty five million dollar loss, the
previous year twenty two million dollar loss, the prior year
nine million dollar loss, and.
Speaker 7 (33:42):
So on and so on.
Speaker 8 (33:43):
So we have to believe it because we can see
it in black and white. Do you I'm not how
you'd sure your states or tracks and that are set up.
You obviously don't have stuff like this where it is
in black and white to show exactly where the government's
kicking in a certain amount of money that once it
drives up, then all of a sudden, we could run
(34:04):
HIV with zero staff and still run a loss. You know,
it's showing that our business model at the moment is
just not functionable.
Speaker 7 (34:12):
Without the government support.
Speaker 8 (34:14):
Surely, your horsemen, if they saw reports like that, would
have to open up their eyes and believe it.
Speaker 5 (34:20):
Yeah, I guess, so I'd say that I agree with
that that action or people who would do But you know,
we're all hopers. But I mean, to me the most
telling part of all. But I also know, I mean,
I write it all the time and I get very
little reaction. You just need to look at the front
page of the USTA Racing Page, which I look at
(34:43):
every day for you know, the trees or results, and
it tells you where the wagering is this year relative
to where it was last year. And there's been some
weather this year, but in aggregate the wagering is down
thirteen and a half percent year to date. The number
of dates is down eight percent, so it's really eight percent,
(35:04):
but it was seven percent last year. So in the
last two years we're on track to have lost fifty
percent of our wagering. You and you know, if you
project that out, you need only go another five years
to INFX say our win is going to be half
(35:26):
of what it was two years ago. And you just
look at that and say, if you're wagering, even if
you're not making any money on it declines to that level.
How do the governments not say, guys, we just at best,
we will only cut you back spending that your own
(35:48):
business is going down. And you then look at that
and NFL say, coming back to John's point, your only
solution on your own at that point is to win
effects say, we will agree to drastically slash dates to
keep our base purst at a at a level that
makes it worth while driving to the track. But but
(36:11):
I think you're I think we're all we're all talking
about a very very difficult problem, which is how do
you get done her on it when he stopped me
from being a polyada in terms of saying, how do
you actually convince people that is going to run out
if we don't change and don't wait till you're looking
(36:34):
over the cliff, because it's going to be hard for
you to decide to become a medical doctor at that point.
Speaker 8 (36:40):
You know what, because now our turnover is down fourteen
point nine percent for the last year, so we're on
the same levels as you.
Speaker 4 (36:48):
Yeah, but I think Stephen and you know this could
maybe get Robert into it also for New Zealand. But
it seems to me that the problem is the same
everywhere in that this the true and the effect, And
I guess the cause of this problem of the diminishing
wagering and the decline of racing is not a story
(37:11):
that the people in the industry are hearing every day
from those that are leading the industry.
Speaker 5 (37:15):
You just had a.
Speaker 4 (37:15):
Sale in New Zealand that got promoted as a tremendous
sale and it had some the highest sale topper in
New Zealand history. But if you had a lower level
or mid level.
Speaker 5 (37:26):
Horse, you've got crucified.
Speaker 4 (37:29):
And you also had you also had in a country
that it's unlikely you could have more than three or
four hundred thousand dollars winners in New Zealand for a
two year old, for example, they had Robert you would
know exactly, but they probably had thirty horses sell for
one hundred thousand. There's a there's no awareness, no conscious
(37:52):
awareness of the cliff, and you're just not having anybody
point out the reality that you have to make a
drastic change to induce to come up with a program
that has any potential, and people don't seem that they
don't hear that enough.
Speaker 5 (38:13):
Yeah. The part of the explanation for that is part
of the explanation for that is because that's true everywhere.
I mean, they're all there, still will be for quite
a period of time. Enough guys with enough money to
buy the best courses or what they think are the
best horses. But that doesn't solve the overall problem for
(38:34):
the industry. I mean, yes, yes, it solves the problem
or mitigates the problem for the very top end breeders.
It's tough on the lower end breeders, but it doesn't
solve the problem of which I think is the ultimate problem,
which is between the casinos, but more importantly the government saying,
(38:57):
unless you guys can give us a credible plan, we
have to cut back. And when you cry our answers, well,
well recent Kentucky, that seems to be a good place
for you.
Speaker 7 (39:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (39:09):
What do you have to say, Rabert about New Zealand
after you've heard all the points about North America and Australian.
Speaker 9 (39:18):
Well, I think, gentlemen, we're a little bit different than
all these other jurisdictions. I mean, to be fair, our
total lize a turnover this year currently is tracking the
head of last year, which I think tracked ahead of
the previous year only probably in that three to four percent,
but it is positive Obviously for us, the major change
(39:40):
with positive change was the taking over of our tab
totalized agency board well fifty percent by end tame Stroke Ladbrooks,
and they have reinvigorated the whole betting environment in New
Zealand and that's led to increased revenue you into the industry.
(40:01):
So from our point of view, and the deal we
have is just a year and a half into a
five year deal. So I mean our states went up
I think another ten million last year and we'll probably
go up a little bit more than that this year.
So all of that is incredibly positive. I mean we're
(40:24):
a country of five and a half million and the
South Island has a population of one and a half million,
and probably more than fifty percent of all our racing
product is in the South Island. And a little bit
like Australia, we've been brought up on a culture of rugby,
racing and beer. So in New Zealand, I mean, racing
(40:47):
is quite It may be not so much in the
younger generation, but certainly in the middle aged and older generation,
racing is in you know this part of your DNA.
Our our real problem is the fact that our industry
has been run by our clubs and they really in
(41:09):
terms of that we've been going backwards. We've got some
really good assets and racetracks, but they are run by
clubs which are really amateur, amateur at the best. And
we've just had a big change in our governance at
HRNZ and.
Speaker 5 (41:30):
Our real worry.
Speaker 9 (41:31):
Is that from an administration point of view, we don't
get to act together in terms of how we run
our assets that are our tracks and the entertainment product.
So on one half we're in a very positive space,
another half we're just and it's our own fault, it's
(41:52):
nobody else's fault. And to that point, our latest breathing
season we'll see our numbers drop by about twenty percent,
So it's quite it's an enigma in a way, and
in terms of so much positivity, but down in the
grassroots we just seem to be losing, losing our core.
Speaker 5 (42:13):
Pete.
Speaker 9 (42:14):
We're like we've got an aeroplane where business class and
first class are full, but economy class is empty.
Speaker 5 (42:22):
What did n teen do to make it so much better?
Speaker 9 (42:26):
Well, well, I mean it's easy when you take over
from someone who was not very good and our previous
tav with semi government run operation. This is a private
run will operated here. They know how to market, they
know the product, and they just are a business.
Speaker 7 (42:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (42:51):
Well, and that's why we need some business people involved,
because you're right that always mixing, that always mixing better.
And but again, if we could put we we should
do the same with the idea of putting our best
assets and steaks together and then agreeing on a wagering
(43:13):
operator or a professional organization that as far as as
far as they're involvement in our business, is totally committed
to maximizing the financial returns of the business. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (43:25):
Yeah, I think everything with that. Getting it done is
the problem.
Speaker 5 (43:30):
Yeah, well, no, we have to get everyone together first, right,
that's yeah.
Speaker 9 (43:36):
Can I just add one thing when I listen to
your gentlemen talk about you know, the States particularly and
that so much of it seems to be an external
problem regarding casinos or government departments in New Zealand, we
don't have that problem. And how problems, lucky for us,
are all internal. As we're sitting on something that that
(44:00):
team go forward and then's going forward, we just don't
have the right people in the bridge of the shop
to make sure we take it to where it needs
to go. So it's an internal issues.
Speaker 4 (44:12):
Yeah, in that regards, you're quite lucky, oh very much.
Speaker 9 (44:15):
So we just we've just got to stage a mutiny
and get rid of the captain and the crew.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
All right, gentlemen, gentlemen, we are moving to the one
hour point, so we'll just wrap it up in five minutes.
Speaker 3 (44:30):
Does that sound good?
Speaker 5 (44:32):
Absolutely? On my behalf.
Speaker 4 (44:34):
I just wanted to thank everybody, especially Uh, I know Clay.
It was very busy in Canada John also, and I
think hopefully that what everybody's been saying will get heard
by the industry and perhaps one could find a way
to achieve what Clay is pushing for. It requires the
(44:56):
right people and the rape spirit and it is the
right solution if it can be if it can be achieved.
But again, thank you to John, to Clay, to Steve,
and to Robert and to you Freddie for putting it together.
And perhaps there could be some follow up later, but
it's a nice start.
Speaker 1 (45:14):
One thing that I'm going to add is I have
never seen a business plan done for our sport. Maybe
we should get together and start working on a business
plan for the whole sport.
Speaker 3 (45:24):
John, what are your thoughts on.
Speaker 6 (45:25):
That, Yeah, that would be a really good start, and
that I really agree with everything that Clay has said
about the future and certainly how precarious our situation is.
But boy, it's tough to get to everybody on the
same page, even tough to anybody who acknowledge that this
(45:46):
isn't going to last forever and you know that therein
lies the problem.
Speaker 4 (45:51):
Although what Clay is saying, and what I'm trying to
suggest too, that I think Cley and I are sort
of on the same path is if you do come
up with a good plan and you do structure for
the long term, that the long term.
Speaker 5 (46:06):
Can be there.
Speaker 4 (46:07):
But you need independence, you need control of the product,
you need a good product, and you need unity of
mass so you can control your own destiny.
Speaker 9 (46:18):
Can I just add one thing? In twenty twenty six
next year, the World Protting Organization is going to be
at their conferences in New Zealand. It seems some previous
ones that's been just a junket for everyone. Why can't
something like that see the basis for going forward?
Speaker 7 (46:39):
You bring up a great point.
Speaker 6 (46:41):
I was actually at the World Trotting Conference in Germany,
the last one they had to kind of smoke there.
I think that is the most underutilized organization in the
world for harness raising. They've got the leaders from the
United States, Canada, down Under up and all of them
(47:02):
put on great events. And to have them not sharing
that information of what works what doesn't work, I couldn't
agree more that that that organization. If they have to
follow through more in between meetings than what they do,
that's part of the problem. They need every three years
and then it just fallster the practice and nothing.
Speaker 7 (47:24):
Really gets followed through.
Speaker 6 (47:25):
But I just think that that's an organization that could
really move harness racing forward, you know, in the future.
But again I'm not involved with it, but I would
like to see them take a more active role.
Speaker 5 (47:41):
Okay, just before.
Speaker 8 (47:43):
I sign off, to throw towards John's point about getting
people to understand you know, I think you guys maybe
need to use Victoria. It's a little bit of a
proving point to your people, is that we were one
of the best states, well in the biggest states when
it comes the racing and sort of you know, probably
equal number one, always number one for a long long time,
(48:06):
and we are now the bottom dwellers of Australian racing.
Speaker 7 (48:10):
There's no ifs or buts about that.
Speaker 8 (48:12):
We are really well below the other major states. And
if they don't think it can happen, just point them
towards us. They'll say it can happen, and it has
happened here and where we are a long way out.
Speaker 7 (48:24):
Of trying to dig out of this hole.
Speaker 8 (48:25):
You know, we're not going to say much change in
the next three to five years before we start seeing
a little bit of daylight.
Speaker 3 (48:32):
With that, I'm going to close the show out.
Speaker 2 (48:34):
Not yet, I was since ready nobody has asked the
ancient handicaper, what do you want? Basically, what I would
want is pickable winners. I want a race where I
can handicap the race, and I know everybody in there
(48:57):
is going all out.
Speaker 5 (48:59):
Or they're not.
Speaker 2 (49:01):
I know why they're not, because, well, he's prepping for
this or prepping for that. You're asking me to bet
my money.
Speaker 5 (49:10):
Well, if you want me.
Speaker 2 (49:12):
To do that, you've got to give me a good
reason to do it. Years back, we had good reasons. Unfortunately,
there's so much else going on for the competition of
the wagering dollar, especially with sports wagering.
Speaker 7 (49:31):
All you have to do is listen to.
Speaker 2 (49:33):
Any radio station, and all they're talking about is, well,
you can bet this, you can bet that, raft Kingspanduel, etc. No,
we need vetable racing. Don't give me fifteen horses and
a goddamn race, because I wouldn't even think about looking
at her. I can't even begin to figure out, well,
(49:56):
who might be first, who might be second at the
first recorder. I want pickable winners, sensible races. Ten horses
on a big track, eight horses on a small track.
Speaker 7 (50:09):
That's fine, Okay, Okay.
Speaker 3 (50:12):
With that, I'm going to close the show out. Gordon.
Speaker 1 (50:15):
I want to thank you for bringing everyone together. I
personally thank John for joining us, Clay, Robert and Steve
and Bob. I think we all did a great job
here and we can take it from there.
Speaker 5 (50:28):
It was fun, guys. Thanks, it was fun again, all right,
thank you?
Speaker 3 (50:34):
Okay, Now over to Andy.
Speaker 5 (50:37):
Thanks Fred.
Speaker 10 (50:37):
I don't know what I'm going to be writing about
for next Monday's Keeping Pace column, but I'm working with
Paul Report on a story about the new Standard bed
training facility in Versailles, Kentucky. That's going to be a
story coming out in the next couple of days that
I think folks are going to be interested in.
Speaker 7 (50:55):
I hope everybody reads it.
Speaker 5 (50:56):
I hope everybody.
Speaker 10 (50:56):
Reads the column we posted this week that keep paste
on that big Pennsylvania scandal involving the corticosteroid doc You.
Speaker 5 (51:07):
Brett, Thanks, thank you.
Speaker 3 (51:09):
Andy.
Speaker 1 (51:10):
That's a wrap for this week's show. Thanks for listening,
and please join us again next week
Speaker 5 (51:17):
The Hunness Racing Alumni Show
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