March 28, 2025 • 36 mins
On this week's Harness Racing Alumni Show we continue with our panel discussions on issues and solutions for our sport. This week's panel is led by Gordon Banks. Joining Gordon is Clay Horner, Michael Antoniades along with our shows hosts, Freddie Hudson and Bob Marks. Plus, Andy Cohen with his weekly keeping pace updates. All on this special and informative broadcast.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to this week's Harness Racing Alumni Show. I'm Freddie
Hudson and I'm here today with Bob Marx and Andy
Cohen the Harness Racing Alumni Show with your host Freddy Hudson.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Returning this week we have Gordon Banks, Clay Horner and
Michael Antonadus. Gentlemen, welcome back to the Harness Racing Alumni Show.
Thank you, fred Fred Okay, Gordon.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Now this is a continuation because last week you were
in Australia and New Zealand, and now you were supposed
to lead the show, but you couldn't. You couldn't now
go into the show, so this is in your hands.
But I also know how'd your trip go to down Under?
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Well, I gotta start by saying, if it's in my hands,
we're all in big trouble because I'm not sure where
I am right now.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
I had a great trip.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
I spent a week in the South Island of New.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
Dealing, which is the best part of the Zealand to
be in.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
And it was at Queenstown and Wanaka, all over the
South Island. I was hosted by Robert Samuelio of Dancing
and Movelight Farm and an old friend for twenty five
years with my friends and is an incredible farm. It
was just it was beautiful. The family's wife and gave
me an incredible time. They drove us everywhere. And then
(01:24):
I had a week in Sydney and I climbed the
bridge for the second time. Wow, And that's I had
forgotten that I was fifteen years younger when I climbed.
Speaker 4 (01:35):
It the first time. It makes a difference. And I
had a great time. So a great trip.
Speaker 5 (01:42):
Well, Gordon, I did at thirty five years ago, and
I thought it was hard. Then yeah, maybe the bridge
is expanding though well I don't know. I don't know
about that, but my wife it was actually on our honeymoon,
and my wife likes to remind me that, you know,
we were some of the last people who were able
(02:05):
to go up Airs Rock. But more to the point,
she reminds me that halfway up, I didn't think she
was keeping up, and I said, I'm going ahead. I
hope you can catch up. And she said, for the
next forty five minutes, Clay, I was really wondering why
I was on a honeymoon with a guy like you.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Did you know that she just got lucky.
Speaker 5 (02:30):
I know. I didn't say to her. You know what,
that's a lot of you hear on the way down,
you'll be able to keep up.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
I consider that on the bridge the way down is
I think tougher the way up.
Speaker 5 (02:44):
Yeah, I do too.
Speaker 4 (02:46):
It was, but it was beautiful, a great trip.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
And if as I said, I'm supposed to Fred says,
I'm supposed to leave this, but I really have no
idea what direction. And I didn't even have a chance
to listen to the last week's show. So I'm going
to lead in the absence claim. But you better at
least get us started, because maybe I'll be able.
Speaker 4 (03:04):
To pick up after that. Well.
Speaker 5 (03:07):
I think actually it would be really interesting to hear
you talk about the scene down under and what we
can learn from it and we can or can contribute
in that regard. I think that's a really interesting issue.
I think that the whole notion of the future of
the business and whether we can capitalize on internationalization is
(03:32):
a really important topic. And I just I say this
and really picking up on my earlier comments.
Speaker 4 (03:43):
You know, I until.
Speaker 5 (03:46):
Three or four years ago when I got involved in
this little thoroughbred group that you know, turned out to
be a lot of fun and luckily very successful. You know,
I was just a guide in the world North American
standardbred guy, and I, you know, would watch the pre
Toomeric and that's maybe the elite lop and that was
my scope of international racing. But between looking and looking
(04:12):
and spending more time now in particularly watching Vincenne in
the in the winter with the good races and you know,
some of the other uh tracks, and now looking at
some of the international thoroughbred tracks, I just find it
makes the whole thing, uh when I mean that being
(04:35):
interested in horse racing so much richer and more interesting,
and so you know, I still you spend obviously most
of my time watching North American racing. I find that
the variety and most importantly, given the topic we're talking about,
(04:57):
the learning that you get from seeing other things and
thinking about how those things would work here. And you know,
I'll just end that with you know, Bob Marks made
a really interesting comment a couple of weeks ago when
I made a comment about, you know, the importance of
(05:18):
big fields, and Bob chimed in and said, hey, just
a second, I don't want too many horses to have
to keep track of from the better's point of view,
and of course that the focus on that issue of
what do the better want and how do we balance that.
I know they don't want eight horses on a half
(05:38):
mile track just because you know, there's not enough interest
in a the actual watching of the races, but the handicapping.
But what what can we learn internationally that we could
try In North America Middlelands had a five eight mile track,
five eight mile race like two we can Ago, and
(06:00):
you know I was really interesting because they were all
out the whole way. I mean, I wouldn't want to
watch a steady diet of that, just as I don't
want to watch five furlong thoroughbred races all the time
when I'm watching that. But the notion of what we
can learn from each other had been incorporated into a
more interesting package to attract more people is to me
(06:25):
one of the most important, one of the most important issues.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
I think so too. I was lucky that when I
was younger, I lived ten years in Europe, and so
I have been to the races in Belgium and in
France and everywhere. So I saw the variety of racing
I had there at an early age, and I've been
almost all the tracks down Under, so I was lucky
(06:51):
enough for is that on my phone?
Speaker 4 (06:53):
I think.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
Okay, I was lucky enough to to have a pretty
broad experience. I think down Under is ahead of us
and almost everything. I had a four hour meeting with
Brad Steele, who's ahead of racing in New Zealand, and
he's the right hand man of Enfan. He's put in
(07:18):
by Ntane, which is formerly a lad book, and they
control everything in New Zealand and tab and so they're
actually effectuating a policy without much opposition because they have
the ability to do that. And what I found really interesting,
which I had no idea about, was that already they
can bet in race. You can you can you can,
(07:43):
in an automated manner, bet on any horse in the
course of a race.
Speaker 4 (07:48):
They obviously have.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
Fixed odds racing, which they've had for a long time,
and I presume I didn't go into detail about it
with him because he agreed to come on the show,
so somewhere I think next week Brad Steele will be
on the show to explain everything himself. But they can
bet at any time in the race, and I presume
(08:10):
it's fixed odds and he was telling me he had
just been doing that the night before, and some flobd.
Speaker 4 (08:15):
Racing they.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
They just they have multi bets that are incredible. Somebody
yesterday just won two hundred thousand on a three race
multi bet that they were commenting about online. Was when
I came back from the trip, the first thing I
did was watch a favorite of Hours and a stake
race over and this year to lose by a nose,
which will be was the way to end the trip.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
That was frustrated. But the racing over there.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Is is completely different from Hours and much more interesting.
Speaker 4 (08:51):
I think Clay you may have seen.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
I think I noticed you saw one of the videos
I sent from the Glass Track and there's in it
and that was a revelation to me. I changed my
opinion about a lot of things because they had over
twenty five hundred people there, which is wooden the Meadowlands
is going to have any given night. They had an
incredible number of young kids and they had babies. I
(09:16):
guess the laws are somewhat different. They're more relaxed about,
you know, aging which one can go. But they had
every age. It wasn't just old people. The racing was
all on the glass. They had mostly ten to fourteen
horse feels. The racing was anything except predictable, at least
(09:39):
by my handicapping. And they, I mean they had the
last race I remember well. It was a scot race
for fourteen from a standing start, and the last half
of it was a distance race. I it was something
like a mile between a mile a quarter and a
mile and a half the last half, the last mile
(10:02):
of the race, the last half mile of the race
was in a minute, but the mile rate for the
whole time was two minutes and ten seconds and the
people couldn't care less. It could have been It wouldn't
matter if it was one fifty five. The time time
was completely irrelevant to the enjoyment people had. But the
(10:25):
services provided were next to nothing. You had a lot
of tents with companies sponsoring it. It was all outdoors.
Nobody was in the grand stand. They had the best
French fighter had in my life, but they didn't have
a lot of food.
Speaker 4 (10:40):
They had ice cream and it was just everybody was happy.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
Everybody was having a good time and they bet over
one point five million that afternoon in a.
Speaker 4 (10:51):
Little glass track.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
Cheap races, no big purses and everybody had a great
time and if you had taken anybody there, they would
have wanted to come back. And it just it just
changed my perspective. They have they have big success with
the small tracks, the rural tracks, and like we they
have big problems with IM mean, it's with the major
(11:15):
tracks Auckland and Addington because they're not fun experiences.
Speaker 4 (11:21):
And that's just a quick nary of it.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Gordon Fred here a real quick question. Now, where all
the races from stan still starts? Or did they use
the gate on any races?
Speaker 4 (11:33):
No?
Speaker 3 (11:33):
No, they used the gate on most of the races.
And uh they used they used standing start for many
of their trot races. Uh, I don't remember top of
my head ever seen not Ever, they have very few
standing start pacing races. They have some obviously the uh
the Gelan Cup itself was uh, you know, sanny start, but.
Speaker 4 (11:57):
They are mostly mostly mobile racers.
Speaker 5 (12:02):
It's so interesting because one of the things you learned.
I used to like a few years ago, I thought
the standing starts in France. I would look at them
and I would say, oh my god, that's horrible. It's
all messed up. Now that I've watched some of it.
I actually quite like it, and the fact is most
of the races get off to fantastic starts, even with
(12:24):
sixty horses there. I mean, my recollection of it was
always all they get tangled up before they get going,
and I know about some of the case. But maybe
the more important point that I'd make, Gordon, after hearing
what you've said, is that one of our great problems
right now is that with very mutual racing, except for
(12:47):
a very small number of tracks, we don't have big
enough pools to give people any confidence in where the
odds are going to be. And even more importantly, if
we're going to attract young people who are all used
to betting on the NFL and other sports, they are
(13:09):
used to a fixed odds and secondly, the notion that
they can, you know, take a punt at any point
during the game on you know, whatever being offered as
a betting proposition. And so they have two things. One
(13:31):
is a young person can bet when they say I
have confidence that if it's eight to one, I'm getting
eight to one, then I'm not going to, you know,
get so to speak, in their mind cheated at the
end of the day. I mean, because they just don't
understand the way the process works. And secondly, we know
that they love action, and so they love the notion
(13:53):
that if I'm out of the game on the full,
on the you know the results of the game, I
tend bet on three other things now and get my
action bill. And as we know, one of the issues
we deal within the Thoroughbridge deal with it too is
there's so much time between races and so much downtime,
(14:17):
and so often you look at a race and after
the quarter mile you say, I'm pretty confident I have
no chance here, and I'm not going to stay interested,
as opposed to the notion that I could actually do
something else and get a chance. And one of the
other things you're mentioning and Tan Gordon the son of
(14:39):
a very good friend of mine, and then they have
no history in racing at all, but he was was
one of the really strong, you know, strategic business consulting firms,
and Kaine just hired him to be the head of
their strategy operation in Canada. And so this is, you know,
this is an or organization that is hiring the smartest
(15:03):
kids to work for them, that can work anywhere for
any big company. And to put it bluntly the talent
that that of this particular guy, But I can extrapolate
from that, the talent that they're able to attract to
help them with their business is so much greater than
the talent that we can attract to help us in
(15:26):
similar situations. Other than and then I will shut up,
But other than, you know, I thought John Campbell's comment
a couple of weeks ago about the guy from Churchill
that was helping us now with the timing of races was,
Oh my gosh, what an unbelievably important guy to have that.
(15:47):
You know, light Game Preuitt thinks about how you what
time you run your races and how you program your
races to get the biggest handle. And you know, again
partly just because so many of the tracks are casin
alone now you know, they don't really care about that
and it's such an important issue.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Michael, did you want to jump in here? This is
your expertise.
Speaker 6 (16:13):
Yeah, I'd like to respond to all this. The International
is quite interesting. And speaking of the International, there was
a race Saturday at Shotten where there was six million
in the wind pool and five million in the show
pool in one race. To hear people talk about how
(16:36):
nobody loves horse racing is ludicrous. But to come back
to the point that Gordon and Clay have made, let's
take something more specific. Perf Way Park has basically taken
over the nights the last two years. Now, how did
they do that? First of all historical rate. He got
(17:00):
them much bigger purses, which got them much bigger fields.
Speaker 4 (17:04):
And it's not.
Speaker 6 (17:06):
An unusual circumstance to see them have twelve horse fields
all night, which generates large pools, big payoffs. I've seen
seven hundred thousand dollars multi race wagers. I've seen million
dollar pools. There was that was a track that wasn't
even on anyone's radar three years ago. So they're coming
(17:27):
into the night. They don't have to fight Saratoga, they
don't have to fight go Streams, and they're doing I
believe in March three hundred and sixty six thousand a race,
which for a nighttime, that's a big number and it's
affected everybody so that now everybody better know where turf
Ways running their race, because if you don't know that,
you're you're done before you even start. But the good
(17:50):
part is they brought a lot of money into the
into the night time. But the unfortunate part is Harness
Racey just refuses to pivot. They don't understand their product.
And we talked about the two weeks ago. How forty
years ago they used to run their races every thirty minutes,
nine races. Everybody had the same mo Then they just
(18:13):
start adding races, started adding wagers. I think Sportsman was
part did average between two and three hundred thousand dollars
on their trifecta and one trifecta a night in the
Metal Lands on the weekend that was between four and
five hundred thousands. Now we have added races. We have
trifectas that don't even equal to one trifecta from thirty
(18:36):
years ago. So what are the lessons we've learned? Turfway
runs a four hour cards from six o'clock.
Speaker 4 (18:45):
To ten o'clock.
Speaker 6 (18:46):
I think somebody mentioned they're all primetime races. This is
this is the model, though maybe six o'clock to ten
thirty is the model. But what we have done is
we have added so many races. But now the length
of the card is not because of the time in
between the races. The length of the card is because
(19:08):
you went from nine races to fourteen races. I mean,
I don't think anybody thinks of fourteen any baseball game
is a real good idea.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
That's where we're trying, you know, well, I think one
of the problems there is that the industry doesn't really
have an identity so sort of akin to what your
starting point was on this, because they obviously run all
those races because they want to try to help the horsemen,
you know, the trainers have the horses get in. But
if you're always trying to help a different segment of
the industry, sort of like the metalands trying to have
(19:39):
cheap races for the freehold people. I understand the idea,
I understand the good thought behind it, but you can't
make any business succeed unless you're looking at it from
a perspective of what do we need to do to succeed,
not what do we need to do to make some
people happy? And racing doesn't do that, and the consequence
is you're producing a product that nobody wants in a
(20:00):
way that nobody wants. And that's really sad.
Speaker 6 (20:03):
But Gordon, you see, like every every Saturday, Saratoga Thurber's
does twenty million Whitney day they do thirty five or
forty million. A Driver's day they do fifty million. And
here you have people saying, oh, people they've lost interest
in horse racing. I don't see it because.
Speaker 4 (20:22):
Well, there's a difference. You know, you're right.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
When it's run properly, there's there's still big interest. But
the other thing about the different than thoroughbred harness, Like
when I was watching Ferber the other day from Australia,
it's a much classier product and it's the kind of
product that makes people want to watch just to see
(20:46):
the event.
Speaker 4 (20:47):
And to see that the interviews, and to see.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
The celebrities and to see people that are well dressed
and good looking. And when you compare that to how
harness is projected and presented, it's a big problem. We
don't get the celebrities drawing attraction. We don't the presenters.
Clay would have seen the presenters over in Australia the
other day was a woman who was always interviewing everybody
(21:09):
with the hat. You know, she was well dressed, she
was attracted, she was well spoken, she was quick witted.
The trainers were well dressed that were interviewed. It's it's harness.
Racing doesn't project an image that's likely to make anyone
other than a game we'll watch, and that's a problem.
Speaker 5 (21:27):
Yeah, well, I Gordon, I picked up on that when
I was watching rose Hill, you know, between midnight and
two am on the weekend. I looked and I said,
everybody I see has a sports jacket out. I mean,
you know, it was the kind of thing where you
looked at and you said, wow, what a classic group
of people. I mean, I knew that. I know that.
(21:48):
You know, horse racing is you know, sort of until
imbued in the culture down under. But to watch those
races you look at and you say wow that I
understand why you could say to anybody, do you want
to come to rose Hill with me on Saturday? Whether
(22:09):
you're a horse person or not, you will like the
scene and you will like the atmosphere.
Speaker 4 (22:14):
It's a little like.
Speaker 5 (22:15):
You know, my thirty three year old son who went
to the Breeders Cup at Delmar this year and who
you know, was not interested in racing at all, and
he took a friend of his who had never been
to the race of that all before, and they both
My wife was laughing about this. She goes. You know, Clay,
(22:37):
there were two guys in their early thirties who, after
having that experience, were asking when they could go next.
And I'll say this about my son, who knows nothing
about gambling, but bet fifty dollars on one on our
(22:57):
horse who won the race, and he got six hundred
and fifty dollars back, you know, to him not and
six hundred and fifty dollars isn't a lot of money
to him. But that experience of winning and sort of
getting the windfall which you didn't expect to get, hasn't
(23:18):
an addictive in the good way of addictive for those
of us who are interested in racing attraction to young people,
and you know, we need to be able to give
them those experiences more more often. And I'm sad to say,
because if you said to me, we'd all say this.
(23:41):
Fifteen or twenty years ago, watching the Metal Lands was
a treat. Now I find it hard to watch an
ordinary Metal Lands card unless there's a horse that I
want to watch, because I look at it and say, okay, yeah,
the amateurs are fun because it's unpredictable, but it's not
class and they just starting up good horses. Racing on
(24:03):
the card except for the great cards in the summer
right and the other point in the Meddal engine is bad.
But any time you look at my cocono's my pet
object in this sense, Whenever you watch Pocono and you
don't see a single person outside, you go and say,
what's going on? We really should be running races in
(24:29):
some way, and fourteen races isn't the right answer. We
really should be running races in some way that we
can get some people to actually be physically present. Because
if if new people look at it, unless they are
hardcore gamblers, and they see that there's nobody there, they're
not going to think that's something that they want to
participate in themselves.
Speaker 4 (24:51):
And they don't want to take their friends.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
They want they want to take the other to an
event that's going to be fun, and we have to.
That's another thing that in the Zealo. One of the
things we talked about a lot when I was with
Brad Steel. It's the experience factor of a person at
the racetrack essential to their vision what's necessary to make
things better, and.
Speaker 4 (25:14):
That's important. We don't do that.
Speaker 5 (25:16):
It's very important. I'll give you a little example that,
you know, it's just current right now with all the
tariff discussion going on. The Finance Minister of the Province
of Ontario is a guy that I knew from when
I lived in New York and he was working for
the TV Bank in New York and we, you know,
sort of we're friends, and we took them to the
(25:36):
meadowlands one night and I could tell that he and
his wife enjoyed the experience. That's twenty seven years ago.
But he called me late last week and said, you know, Clay,
I wanted to talk to you about this terriff issue
and you know what we should be doing from an
Ontario point of view. Obviously, you know, our breeders are
(25:57):
all up in arms about not being able to sell
their horses in the in the US, and you know,
the Premier has raised with me, and Woodbine is in
the riding of the district of the Premier on Ontario,
who's you know, very prominent in the Canadian discussions.
Speaker 4 (26:12):
About the tariffs.
Speaker 5 (26:13):
He said, the Premier has raised with me whether we
should you know, put the very considerable money that we
provide to Woodbine into races for only Canadian owned and
Canadian full courses, because if we're going to be tariffed
by the US, why would we put on the mohawks
million so US owners can take the money home. So
(26:35):
but this is a smart guy who you know, wasn't
taking any ideological position on anything. He was just saying,
we've got a public policy issue. And here's really the point.
It's apart from the public policy issue. He said, I
called you because I had a really good experience going
(26:56):
to the races with you in New York when we
were both out there, and then you and your wife
invited us to the Queen's played a couple of times,
and my wife and I enjoyed that experience. And you're
I'm the finance miners. The Premier actually knows lots of
people of the horse business. It's really very big on
the horse for business. But the Finance Minister said, you know, Clay,
(27:18):
you're the only person I know in the horse business,
and so I wanted to call you to talk about that.
And you know, those are the kind of relationships that
we need. Is just as a result of luck in
this case, but the kind of relationship that we need
to have to get our voices heard on the issues
(27:38):
that matter and how the government is or is it
going to be prepared to spend money on helping us.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
Yeah, and the terrorf issue is very confusing because it's
like a friend of mine hask me to help him
buy a horse in Australia last week, and I think
the horse is coming.
Speaker 4 (27:57):
Over in ten days of.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
Flight, and even in that limited window, there's no real
certainty of what's going to happen with tarifs on that horse, which.
Speaker 4 (28:09):
Is a real problem.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
And yeah, but life has changed so much that that
in person experience doesn't exist so much anymore.
Speaker 4 (28:18):
People.
Speaker 5 (28:18):
Yeah, and it's critical in terms of getting long term
public support and interest in the business and from a
public policy point of view. And again coming to the
point where people say I want to go, I enjoy
it because I find myself with some light people when
(28:38):
I'm there.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
Yeah, which is at that little grass track in New Zealand,
there were a lot of important people from within and
outside of the racing industry. Just a fun event for
families and a nice ambiance. You know, you don't get here,
it's just impossible to go on. It's unfair to check
on the meadowlands. I understand, Okano, but you could go
(29:02):
anywhere now except on a major event day, and it's
not a pleasurable experience.
Speaker 4 (29:07):
For harness racing.
Speaker 3 (29:07):
Racetracks in the Midwest, I think it might be a
little bit different. I almost feel like in the summer
going to Ohio and going to some of the fair
tracks because I have a feeling that there it replicates
a little bit what I felt in New Zealand, but
everywhere else it doesn't.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Michael, I saw your hand up.
Speaker 5 (29:29):
Yeah, sorry, guys, I gave thready notice I have to drop,
but thanks, we'll catch up again, okay, right, always a pleasure.
Speaker 6 (29:38):
Yes, this is what Gordon talks about. Is so important
for the social component. Mister Garral built a marvelous facility
and I don't think anybody would be embarrassed to take
their wife there for dinner on a Saturday, go to
the bar for some drinks.
Speaker 4 (29:53):
It's beautiful, right, but yeah, especially in the roof bar.
Speaker 6 (29:59):
Let's be serious here that that experience isn't attainable in
a lot of places. So let's try and talk about
the gambling part. What we should be looking at as
far as trying to make this sport better. Not to
spend a lot of time on each topic, but you
have to lower the takeout at least mister Garral, you
(30:21):
know he's got a lot of low take up. That's
that most of are very very popular. Woodbinds tried it.
Gabe's great at Promotium. Chris Chick, I mean, does thirty
thousand on the Pick five and the Pick four on
a little track in Sacramento. So you can do it
with low takeout. You need bicker Fields too. Of course
that's a little tougher. The sport is way too predictable.
(30:44):
You need to stop having these front end tracks that
lead to three twenty horses, six dollars exacts, eleven dollars tries.
If that's your that's what you've got, You've got nothing,
So you need to work on that. You got too
many ways that nobody supports. The public is look at
your chart, look at your results page, and whatever the
(31:06):
public doesn't like, get rid of it. You got too
many races. There's not enough time in between races. I
think of free pps, this is something that a lot
of tracks have done. The meadowlands what I think every
track in Canada's got them. Gabe's offering them at at Hoosier.
Speaker 4 (31:25):
This is a big thing.
Speaker 6 (31:26):
It's great. We need tournaments every week. We need a
national bet like similar to the cross country or or
at least on Saturdays. And we need to work on
an exchange bet I know they tried it ten years ago,
but when the exchangement was popular twenty years ago with Betfair,
(31:50):
the committ the commissions I think was two between two
and five percent.
Speaker 3 (31:55):
Of when when you say exchange, that you mean you
bet a triple and then you turned that ticket in
an What do you mean by not.
Speaker 6 (32:04):
The exchange but the betty exchange that Betford had twenty
years ago. Okay, you like to bet the horse, I
like to lay the horse, and it gives you a
choice of prices on the exchange. And commission that you
paid the winner is between two and five percent. I
think when they tried it here through TVG it was
twelve percent. It was just too high. It couldn't work.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
And I think this is awesome.
Speaker 6 (32:31):
And the big one of the biggest one is international
call mingling. We have to find a way to get
these international people into the pools. I'm not saying we're
going to be Hong Kong in five years, but it
would be a big big step.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
For us, but they were very successful.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
They were very successful bringing the French in a few
years ago, if I remember correctly.
Speaker 6 (32:52):
Yes, the friends right, yes, yes, and the French play
the races on HAMBILETONI day as the metal Lands. They
have to have trots and they can only bet on trots,
and you have to face the races about thirty minutes apart,
and they only bet, win and show. But there were
(33:14):
days when at Yonkers, when those tools were one hundred
and fifty thousand race for Yonkers. Yeah, but at that time
that was pretty exceptional. So if that was tried on
our bigger races paramutually, I can't even imagine any track
could possibly just by acquiring the French jump up to
(33:40):
be the number three track in the country.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
And of course, hey, Michael fred here, what do you
think of these ten cents, these twenty cents, these fifty bets.
Would that be better if they moved them up to
like two dollars three dollar bets?
Speaker 6 (33:56):
Freddy the Tenet Delmore had the first ten cent wager
and horse raking. Then the reason we did it was
the tax laws were ridiculous in the United States. In
other words, I could spend eight hundred dollars and hit
a six hundred and fifty dollars trifecta, and then the
government wanted me to pay them twenty five percent for
(34:20):
hitting the six hundred and fifty dollars trifecta. This went
on till twenty seventeen. In twenty seventeen, the tax laws changed,
where then all that was holding basically disappeared unless you
made an enormous score. So we need to get back
at some point to larger denominations. At Santony that you're
seeing a three dollars pick three, you're seeing a three
(34:42):
dollars double, you're I think maybe you're seeing a five
dollar double. Chris is trying three dollars pick three out
in California. Yes, the answer to your questions, yes, we
need to get back to wagers that are.
Speaker 5 (34:58):
Larger.
Speaker 6 (34:58):
But here's the thing. If if if you've got sixteen
races and you're going to start with a two dollars
pick five, and you're going to follow two races with
a two dollars pick four, how are these people.
Speaker 4 (35:11):
Supposed to last?
Speaker 3 (35:13):
Yeah, you're churning money. You're churning everybody's money, and there
are too many options without a doubt. I don't remember
if you were listening to the show. A couple of
weeks ago, Mark Hannibal was on My cousin. He was
commenting along the same lines, which is, we're offering far
too many bets. You have to focus and you have
(35:33):
to create big pools and by limiting and using your
wagering opportunity and menu properly, and we're just not doing it.
Speaker 4 (35:39):
I agree with you completely.
Speaker 6 (35:41):
Now there's a man that understands.
Speaker 4 (35:45):
Because he agrees with you. Man.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
I just want to thank Michael and Gordon for coming on,
and Clay he's gone already, but I just want to
really thank you guys.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
I think it's a great show. I think we got
a pretty good message out there now to Andy. Thanks Freddie.
Speaker 7 (36:02):
I'm going to do a little bit of a return
to that conflict between the USTA and Diamond Creek. I'm
going to include a little bit more of that in
next Monday's Keeping Pace column at Pollock Report. I'm also
going to talk a little bit more about tariff. I
wrote about tariffs this past week and there was quite
a reaction to the story.
Speaker 4 (36:20):
I thought the big story involving.
Speaker 7 (36:24):
The USTA and that investigative committee would be over by now,
but there are still allegations and questions.
Speaker 4 (36:32):
Being raised about it. So again i'll try to get
into that.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Back to you, Fred, Thank you Andy. That's a wrap
for this week's show. Please join us again next week
the Hunness Racing Alumni Show
Welcome to this week's Harness Racing Alumni Show. I'm Freddie
Hudson and I'm here today with Bob Marx and Andy
Cohen the Harness Racing Alumni Show with your host Freddy Hudson.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Returning this week we have Gordon Banks, Clay Horner and
Michael Antonadus. Gentlemen, welcome back to the Harness Racing Alumni Show.
Thank you, fred Fred Okay, Gordon.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Now this is a continuation because last week you were
in Australia and New Zealand, and now you were supposed
to lead the show, but you couldn't. You couldn't now
go into the show, so this is in your hands.
But I also know how'd your trip go to down Under?
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Well, I gotta start by saying, if it's in my hands,
we're all in big trouble because I'm not sure where
I am right now.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
I had a great trip.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
I spent a week in the South Island of New.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
Dealing, which is the best part of the Zealand to
be in.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
And it was at Queenstown and Wanaka, all over the
South Island. I was hosted by Robert Samuelio of Dancing
and Movelight Farm and an old friend for twenty five
years with my friends and is an incredible farm. It
was just it was beautiful. The family's wife and gave
me an incredible time. They drove us everywhere. And then
(01:24):
I had a week in Sydney and I climbed the
bridge for the second time. Wow, And that's I had
forgotten that I was fifteen years younger when I climbed.
Speaker 4 (01:35):
It the first time. It makes a difference. And I
had a great time. So a great trip.
Speaker 5 (01:42):
Well, Gordon, I did at thirty five years ago, and
I thought it was hard. Then yeah, maybe the bridge
is expanding though well I don't know. I don't know
about that, but my wife it was actually on our honeymoon,
and my wife likes to remind me that, you know,
we were some of the last people who were able
(02:05):
to go up Airs Rock. But more to the point,
she reminds me that halfway up, I didn't think she
was keeping up, and I said, I'm going ahead. I
hope you can catch up. And she said, for the
next forty five minutes, Clay, I was really wondering why
I was on a honeymoon with a guy like you.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Did you know that she just got lucky.
Speaker 5 (02:30):
I know. I didn't say to her. You know what,
that's a lot of you hear on the way down,
you'll be able to keep up.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
I consider that on the bridge the way down is
I think tougher the way up.
Speaker 5 (02:44):
Yeah, I do too.
Speaker 4 (02:46):
It was, but it was beautiful, a great trip.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
And if as I said, I'm supposed to Fred says,
I'm supposed to leave this, but I really have no
idea what direction. And I didn't even have a chance
to listen to the last week's show. So I'm going
to lead in the absence claim. But you better at
least get us started, because maybe I'll be able.
Speaker 4 (03:04):
To pick up after that. Well.
Speaker 5 (03:07):
I think actually it would be really interesting to hear
you talk about the scene down under and what we
can learn from it and we can or can contribute
in that regard. I think that's a really interesting issue.
I think that the whole notion of the future of
the business and whether we can capitalize on internationalization is
(03:32):
a really important topic. And I just I say this
and really picking up on my earlier comments.
Speaker 4 (03:43):
You know, I until.
Speaker 5 (03:46):
Three or four years ago when I got involved in
this little thoroughbred group that you know, turned out to
be a lot of fun and luckily very successful. You know,
I was just a guide in the world North American
standardbred guy, and I, you know, would watch the pre
Toomeric and that's maybe the elite lop and that was
my scope of international racing. But between looking and looking
(04:12):
and spending more time now in particularly watching Vincenne in
the in the winter with the good races and you know,
some of the other uh tracks, and now looking at
some of the international thoroughbred tracks, I just find it
makes the whole thing, uh when I mean that being
(04:35):
interested in horse racing so much richer and more interesting,
and so you know, I still you spend obviously most
of my time watching North American racing. I find that
the variety and most importantly, given the topic we're talking about,
(04:57):
the learning that you get from seeing other things and
thinking about how those things would work here. And you know,
I'll just end that with you know, Bob Marks made
a really interesting comment a couple of weeks ago when
I made a comment about, you know, the importance of
(05:18):
big fields, and Bob chimed in and said, hey, just
a second, I don't want too many horses to have
to keep track of from the better's point of view,
and of course that the focus on that issue of
what do the better want and how do we balance that.
I know they don't want eight horses on a half
(05:38):
mile track just because you know, there's not enough interest
in a the actual watching of the races, but the handicapping.
But what what can we learn internationally that we could
try In North America Middlelands had a five eight mile track,
five eight mile race like two we can Ago, and
(06:00):
you know I was really interesting because they were all
out the whole way. I mean, I wouldn't want to
watch a steady diet of that, just as I don't
want to watch five furlong thoroughbred races all the time
when I'm watching that. But the notion of what we
can learn from each other had been incorporated into a
more interesting package to attract more people is to me
(06:25):
one of the most important, one of the most important issues.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
I think so too. I was lucky that when I
was younger, I lived ten years in Europe, and so
I have been to the races in Belgium and in
France and everywhere. So I saw the variety of racing
I had there at an early age, and I've been
almost all the tracks down Under, so I was lucky
(06:51):
enough for is that on my phone?
Speaker 4 (06:53):
I think.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
Okay, I was lucky enough to to have a pretty
broad experience. I think down Under is ahead of us
and almost everything. I had a four hour meeting with
Brad Steele, who's ahead of racing in New Zealand, and
he's the right hand man of Enfan. He's put in
(07:18):
by Ntane, which is formerly a lad book, and they
control everything in New Zealand and tab and so they're
actually effectuating a policy without much opposition because they have
the ability to do that. And what I found really interesting,
which I had no idea about, was that already they
can bet in race. You can you can you can,
(07:43):
in an automated manner, bet on any horse in the
course of a race.
Speaker 4 (07:48):
They obviously have.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
Fixed odds racing, which they've had for a long time,
and I presume I didn't go into detail about it
with him because he agreed to come on the show,
so somewhere I think next week Brad Steele will be
on the show to explain everything himself. But they can
bet at any time in the race, and I presume
(08:10):
it's fixed odds and he was telling me he had
just been doing that the night before, and some flobd.
Speaker 4 (08:15):
Racing they.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
They just they have multi bets that are incredible. Somebody
yesterday just won two hundred thousand on a three race
multi bet that they were commenting about online. Was when
I came back from the trip, the first thing I
did was watch a favorite of Hours and a stake
race over and this year to lose by a nose,
which will be was the way to end the trip.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
That was frustrated. But the racing over there.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Is is completely different from Hours and much more interesting.
Speaker 4 (08:51):
I think Clay you may have seen.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
I think I noticed you saw one of the videos
I sent from the Glass Track and there's in it
and that was a revelation to me. I changed my
opinion about a lot of things because they had over
twenty five hundred people there, which is wooden the Meadowlands
is going to have any given night. They had an
incredible number of young kids and they had babies. I
(09:16):
guess the laws are somewhat different. They're more relaxed about,
you know, aging which one can go. But they had
every age. It wasn't just old people. The racing was
all on the glass. They had mostly ten to fourteen
horse feels. The racing was anything except predictable, at least
(09:39):
by my handicapping. And they, I mean they had the
last race I remember well. It was a scot race
for fourteen from a standing start, and the last half
of it was a distance race. I it was something
like a mile between a mile a quarter and a
mile and a half the last half, the last mile
(10:02):
of the race, the last half mile of the race
was in a minute, but the mile rate for the
whole time was two minutes and ten seconds and the
people couldn't care less. It could have been It wouldn't
matter if it was one fifty five. The time time
was completely irrelevant to the enjoyment people had. But the
(10:25):
services provided were next to nothing. You had a lot
of tents with companies sponsoring it. It was all outdoors.
Nobody was in the grand stand. They had the best
French fighter had in my life, but they didn't have
a lot of food.
Speaker 4 (10:40):
They had ice cream and it was just everybody was happy.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
Everybody was having a good time and they bet over
one point five million that afternoon in a.
Speaker 4 (10:51):
Little glass track.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
Cheap races, no big purses and everybody had a great
time and if you had taken anybody there, they would
have wanted to come back. And it just it just
changed my perspective. They have they have big success with
the small tracks, the rural tracks, and like we they
have big problems with IM mean, it's with the major
(11:15):
tracks Auckland and Addington because they're not fun experiences.
Speaker 4 (11:21):
And that's just a quick nary of it.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Gordon Fred here a real quick question. Now, where all
the races from stan still starts? Or did they use
the gate on any races?
Speaker 4 (11:33):
No?
Speaker 3 (11:33):
No, they used the gate on most of the races.
And uh they used they used standing start for many
of their trot races. Uh, I don't remember top of
my head ever seen not Ever, they have very few
standing start pacing races. They have some obviously the uh
the Gelan Cup itself was uh, you know, sanny start, but.
Speaker 4 (11:57):
They are mostly mostly mobile racers.
Speaker 5 (12:02):
It's so interesting because one of the things you learned.
I used to like a few years ago, I thought
the standing starts in France. I would look at them
and I would say, oh my god, that's horrible. It's
all messed up. Now that I've watched some of it.
I actually quite like it, and the fact is most
of the races get off to fantastic starts, even with
(12:24):
sixty horses there. I mean, my recollection of it was
always all they get tangled up before they get going,
and I know about some of the case. But maybe
the more important point that I'd make, Gordon, after hearing
what you've said, is that one of our great problems
right now is that with very mutual racing, except for
(12:47):
a very small number of tracks, we don't have big
enough pools to give people any confidence in where the
odds are going to be. And even more importantly, if
we're going to attract young people who are all used
to betting on the NFL and other sports, they are
(13:09):
used to a fixed odds and secondly, the notion that
they can, you know, take a punt at any point
during the game on you know, whatever being offered as
a betting proposition. And so they have two things. One
(13:31):
is a young person can bet when they say I
have confidence that if it's eight to one, I'm getting
eight to one, then I'm not going to, you know,
get so to speak, in their mind cheated at the
end of the day. I mean, because they just don't
understand the way the process works. And secondly, we know
that they love action, and so they love the notion
(13:53):
that if I'm out of the game on the full,
on the you know the results of the game, I
tend bet on three other things now and get my
action bill. And as we know, one of the issues
we deal within the Thoroughbridge deal with it too is
there's so much time between races and so much downtime,
(14:17):
and so often you look at a race and after
the quarter mile you say, I'm pretty confident I have
no chance here, and I'm not going to stay interested,
as opposed to the notion that I could actually do
something else and get a chance. And one of the
other things you're mentioning and Tan Gordon the son of
(14:39):
a very good friend of mine, and then they have
no history in racing at all, but he was was
one of the really strong, you know, strategic business consulting firms,
and Kaine just hired him to be the head of
their strategy operation in Canada. And so this is, you know,
this is an or organization that is hiring the smartest
(15:03):
kids to work for them, that can work anywhere for
any big company. And to put it bluntly the talent
that that of this particular guy, But I can extrapolate
from that, the talent that they're able to attract to
help them with their business is so much greater than
the talent that we can attract to help us in
(15:26):
similar situations. Other than and then I will shut up,
But other than, you know, I thought John Campbell's comment
a couple of weeks ago about the guy from Churchill
that was helping us now with the timing of races was,
Oh my gosh, what an unbelievably important guy to have that.
(15:47):
You know, light Game Preuitt thinks about how you what
time you run your races and how you program your
races to get the biggest handle. And you know, again
partly just because so many of the tracks are casin
alone now you know, they don't really care about that
and it's such an important issue.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Michael, did you want to jump in here? This is
your expertise.
Speaker 6 (16:13):
Yeah, I'd like to respond to all this. The International
is quite interesting. And speaking of the International, there was
a race Saturday at Shotten where there was six million
in the wind pool and five million in the show
pool in one race. To hear people talk about how
(16:36):
nobody loves horse racing is ludicrous. But to come back
to the point that Gordon and Clay have made, let's
take something more specific. Perf Way Park has basically taken
over the nights the last two years. Now, how did
they do that? First of all historical rate. He got
(17:00):
them much bigger purses, which got them much bigger fields.
Speaker 4 (17:04):
And it's not.
Speaker 6 (17:06):
An unusual circumstance to see them have twelve horse fields
all night, which generates large pools, big payoffs. I've seen
seven hundred thousand dollars multi race wagers. I've seen million
dollar pools. There was that was a track that wasn't
even on anyone's radar three years ago. So they're coming
(17:27):
into the night. They don't have to fight Saratoga, they
don't have to fight go Streams, and they're doing I
believe in March three hundred and sixty six thousand a race,
which for a nighttime, that's a big number and it's
affected everybody so that now everybody better know where turf
Ways running their race, because if you don't know that,
you're you're done before you even start. But the good
(17:50):
part is they brought a lot of money into the
into the night time. But the unfortunate part is Harness
Racey just refuses to pivot. They don't understand their product.
And we talked about the two weeks ago. How forty
years ago they used to run their races every thirty minutes,
nine races. Everybody had the same mo Then they just
(18:13):
start adding races, started adding wagers. I think Sportsman was
part did average between two and three hundred thousand dollars
on their trifecta and one trifecta a night in the
Metal Lands on the weekend that was between four and
five hundred thousands. Now we have added races. We have
trifectas that don't even equal to one trifecta from thirty
(18:36):
years ago. So what are the lessons we've learned? Turfway
runs a four hour cards from six o'clock.
Speaker 4 (18:45):
To ten o'clock.
Speaker 6 (18:46):
I think somebody mentioned they're all primetime races. This is
this is the model, though maybe six o'clock to ten
thirty is the model. But what we have done is
we have added so many races. But now the length
of the card is not because of the time in
between the races. The length of the card is because
(19:08):
you went from nine races to fourteen races. I mean,
I don't think anybody thinks of fourteen any baseball game
is a real good idea.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
That's where we're trying, you know, well, I think one
of the problems there is that the industry doesn't really
have an identity so sort of akin to what your
starting point was on this, because they obviously run all
those races because they want to try to help the horsemen,
you know, the trainers have the horses get in. But
if you're always trying to help a different segment of
the industry, sort of like the metalands trying to have
(19:39):
cheap races for the freehold people. I understand the idea,
I understand the good thought behind it, but you can't
make any business succeed unless you're looking at it from
a perspective of what do we need to do to succeed,
not what do we need to do to make some
people happy? And racing doesn't do that, and the consequence
is you're producing a product that nobody wants in a
(20:00):
way that nobody wants. And that's really sad.
Speaker 6 (20:03):
But Gordon, you see, like every every Saturday, Saratoga Thurber's
does twenty million Whitney day they do thirty five or
forty million. A Driver's day they do fifty million. And
here you have people saying, oh, people they've lost interest
in horse racing. I don't see it because.
Speaker 4 (20:22):
Well, there's a difference. You know, you're right.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
When it's run properly, there's there's still big interest. But
the other thing about the different than thoroughbred harness, Like
when I was watching Ferber the other day from Australia,
it's a much classier product and it's the kind of
product that makes people want to watch just to see
(20:46):
the event.
Speaker 4 (20:47):
And to see that the interviews, and to see.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
The celebrities and to see people that are well dressed
and good looking. And when you compare that to how
harness is projected and presented, it's a big problem. We
don't get the celebrities drawing attraction. We don't the presenters.
Clay would have seen the presenters over in Australia the
other day was a woman who was always interviewing everybody
(21:09):
with the hat. You know, she was well dressed, she
was attracted, she was well spoken, she was quick witted.
The trainers were well dressed that were interviewed. It's it's harness.
Racing doesn't project an image that's likely to make anyone
other than a game we'll watch, and that's a problem.
Speaker 5 (21:27):
Yeah, well, I Gordon, I picked up on that when
I was watching rose Hill, you know, between midnight and
two am on the weekend. I looked and I said,
everybody I see has a sports jacket out. I mean,
you know, it was the kind of thing where you
looked at and you said, wow, what a classic group
of people. I mean, I knew that. I know that.
(21:48):
You know, horse racing is you know, sort of until
imbued in the culture down under. But to watch those
races you look at and you say wow that I
understand why you could say to anybody, do you want
to come to rose Hill with me on Saturday? Whether
(22:09):
you're a horse person or not, you will like the
scene and you will like the atmosphere.
Speaker 4 (22:14):
It's a little like.
Speaker 5 (22:15):
You know, my thirty three year old son who went
to the Breeders Cup at Delmar this year and who
you know, was not interested in racing at all, and
he took a friend of his who had never been
to the race of that all before, and they both
My wife was laughing about this. She goes. You know, Clay,
(22:37):
there were two guys in their early thirties who, after
having that experience, were asking when they could go next.
And I'll say this about my son, who knows nothing
about gambling, but bet fifty dollars on one on our
(22:57):
horse who won the race, and he got six hundred
and fifty dollars back, you know, to him not and
six hundred and fifty dollars isn't a lot of money
to him. But that experience of winning and sort of
getting the windfall which you didn't expect to get, hasn't
(23:18):
an addictive in the good way of addictive for those
of us who are interested in racing attraction to young people,
and you know, we need to be able to give
them those experiences more more often. And I'm sad to say,
because if you said to me, we'd all say this.
(23:41):
Fifteen or twenty years ago, watching the Metal Lands was
a treat. Now I find it hard to watch an
ordinary Metal Lands card unless there's a horse that I
want to watch, because I look at it and say, okay, yeah,
the amateurs are fun because it's unpredictable, but it's not
class and they just starting up good horses. Racing on
(24:03):
the card except for the great cards in the summer
right and the other point in the Meddal engine is bad.
But any time you look at my cocono's my pet
object in this sense, Whenever you watch Pocono and you
don't see a single person outside, you go and say,
what's going on? We really should be running races in
(24:29):
some way, and fourteen races isn't the right answer. We
really should be running races in some way that we
can get some people to actually be physically present. Because
if if new people look at it, unless they are
hardcore gamblers, and they see that there's nobody there, they're
not going to think that's something that they want to
participate in themselves.
Speaker 4 (24:51):
And they don't want to take their friends.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
They want they want to take the other to an
event that's going to be fun, and we have to.
That's another thing that in the Zealo. One of the
things we talked about a lot when I was with
Brad Steel. It's the experience factor of a person at
the racetrack essential to their vision what's necessary to make
things better, and.
Speaker 4 (25:14):
That's important. We don't do that.
Speaker 5 (25:16):
It's very important. I'll give you a little example that,
you know, it's just current right now with all the
tariff discussion going on. The Finance Minister of the Province
of Ontario is a guy that I knew from when
I lived in New York and he was working for
the TV Bank in New York and we, you know,
sort of we're friends, and we took them to the
(25:36):
meadowlands one night and I could tell that he and
his wife enjoyed the experience. That's twenty seven years ago.
But he called me late last week and said, you know, Clay,
I wanted to talk to you about this terriff issue
and you know what we should be doing from an
Ontario point of view. Obviously, you know, our breeders are
(25:57):
all up in arms about not being able to sell
their horses in the in the US, and you know,
the Premier has raised with me, and Woodbine is in
the riding of the district of the Premier on Ontario,
who's you know, very prominent in the Canadian discussions.
Speaker 4 (26:12):
About the tariffs.
Speaker 5 (26:13):
He said, the Premier has raised with me whether we
should you know, put the very considerable money that we
provide to Woodbine into races for only Canadian owned and
Canadian full courses, because if we're going to be tariffed
by the US, why would we put on the mohawks
million so US owners can take the money home. So
(26:35):
but this is a smart guy who you know, wasn't
taking any ideological position on anything. He was just saying,
we've got a public policy issue. And here's really the point.
It's apart from the public policy issue. He said, I
called you because I had a really good experience going
(26:56):
to the races with you in New York when we
were both out there, and then you and your wife
invited us to the Queen's played a couple of times,
and my wife and I enjoyed that experience. And you're
I'm the finance miners. The Premier actually knows lots of
people of the horse business. It's really very big on
the horse for business. But the Finance Minister said, you know, Clay,
(27:18):
you're the only person I know in the horse business,
and so I wanted to call you to talk about that.
And you know, those are the kind of relationships that
we need. Is just as a result of luck in
this case, but the kind of relationship that we need
to have to get our voices heard on the issues
(27:38):
that matter and how the government is or is it
going to be prepared to spend money on helping us.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
Yeah, and the terrorf issue is very confusing because it's
like a friend of mine hask me to help him
buy a horse in Australia last week, and I think
the horse is coming.
Speaker 4 (27:57):
Over in ten days of.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
Flight, and even in that limited window, there's no real
certainty of what's going to happen with tarifs on that horse, which.
Speaker 4 (28:09):
Is a real problem.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
And yeah, but life has changed so much that that
in person experience doesn't exist so much anymore.
Speaker 4 (28:18):
People.
Speaker 5 (28:18):
Yeah, and it's critical in terms of getting long term
public support and interest in the business and from a
public policy point of view. And again coming to the
point where people say I want to go, I enjoy
it because I find myself with some light people when
(28:38):
I'm there.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
Yeah, which is at that little grass track in New Zealand,
there were a lot of important people from within and
outside of the racing industry. Just a fun event for
families and a nice ambiance. You know, you don't get here,
it's just impossible to go on. It's unfair to check
on the meadowlands. I understand, Okano, but you could go
(29:02):
anywhere now except on a major event day, and it's
not a pleasurable experience.
Speaker 4 (29:07):
For harness racing.
Speaker 3 (29:07):
Racetracks in the Midwest, I think it might be a
little bit different. I almost feel like in the summer
going to Ohio and going to some of the fair
tracks because I have a feeling that there it replicates
a little bit what I felt in New Zealand, but
everywhere else it doesn't.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Michael, I saw your hand up.
Speaker 5 (29:29):
Yeah, sorry, guys, I gave thready notice I have to drop,
but thanks, we'll catch up again, okay, right, always a pleasure.
Speaker 6 (29:38):
Yes, this is what Gordon talks about. Is so important
for the social component. Mister Garral built a marvelous facility
and I don't think anybody would be embarrassed to take
their wife there for dinner on a Saturday, go to
the bar for some drinks.
Speaker 4 (29:53):
It's beautiful, right, but yeah, especially in the roof bar.
Speaker 6 (29:59):
Let's be serious here that that experience isn't attainable in
a lot of places. So let's try and talk about
the gambling part. What we should be looking at as
far as trying to make this sport better. Not to
spend a lot of time on each topic, but you
have to lower the takeout at least mister Garral, you
(30:21):
know he's got a lot of low take up. That's
that most of are very very popular. Woodbinds tried it.
Gabe's great at Promotium. Chris Chick, I mean, does thirty
thousand on the Pick five and the Pick four on
a little track in Sacramento. So you can do it
with low takeout. You need bicker Fields too. Of course
that's a little tougher. The sport is way too predictable.
(30:44):
You need to stop having these front end tracks that
lead to three twenty horses, six dollars exacts, eleven dollars tries.
If that's your that's what you've got, You've got nothing,
So you need to work on that. You got too
many ways that nobody supports. The public is look at
your chart, look at your results page, and whatever the
(31:06):
public doesn't like, get rid of it. You got too
many races. There's not enough time in between races. I
think of free pps, this is something that a lot
of tracks have done. The meadowlands what I think every
track in Canada's got them. Gabe's offering them at at Hoosier.
Speaker 4 (31:25):
This is a big thing.
Speaker 6 (31:26):
It's great. We need tournaments every week. We need a
national bet like similar to the cross country or or
at least on Saturdays. And we need to work on
an exchange bet I know they tried it ten years ago,
but when the exchangement was popular twenty years ago with Betfair,
(31:50):
the committ the commissions I think was two between two
and five percent.
Speaker 3 (31:55):
Of when when you say exchange, that you mean you
bet a triple and then you turned that ticket in
an What do you mean by not.
Speaker 6 (32:04):
The exchange but the betty exchange that Betford had twenty
years ago. Okay, you like to bet the horse, I
like to lay the horse, and it gives you a
choice of prices on the exchange. And commission that you
paid the winner is between two and five percent. I
think when they tried it here through TVG it was
twelve percent. It was just too high. It couldn't work.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
And I think this is awesome.
Speaker 6 (32:31):
And the big one of the biggest one is international
call mingling. We have to find a way to get
these international people into the pools. I'm not saying we're
going to be Hong Kong in five years, but it
would be a big big step.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
For us, but they were very successful.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
They were very successful bringing the French in a few
years ago, if I remember correctly.
Speaker 6 (32:52):
Yes, the friends right, yes, yes, and the French play
the races on HAMBILETONI day as the metal Lands. They
have to have trots and they can only bet on trots,
and you have to face the races about thirty minutes apart,
and they only bet, win and show. But there were
(33:14):
days when at Yonkers, when those tools were one hundred
and fifty thousand race for Yonkers. Yeah, but at that time
that was pretty exceptional. So if that was tried on
our bigger races paramutually, I can't even imagine any track
could possibly just by acquiring the French jump up to
(33:40):
be the number three track in the country.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
And of course, hey, Michael fred here, what do you
think of these ten cents, these twenty cents, these fifty bets.
Would that be better if they moved them up to
like two dollars three dollar bets?
Speaker 6 (33:56):
Freddy the Tenet Delmore had the first ten cent wager
and horse raking. Then the reason we did it was
the tax laws were ridiculous in the United States. In
other words, I could spend eight hundred dollars and hit
a six hundred and fifty dollars trifecta, and then the
government wanted me to pay them twenty five percent for
(34:20):
hitting the six hundred and fifty dollars trifecta. This went
on till twenty seventeen. In twenty seventeen, the tax laws changed,
where then all that was holding basically disappeared unless you
made an enormous score. So we need to get back
at some point to larger denominations. At Santony that you're
seeing a three dollars pick three, you're seeing a three
(34:42):
dollars double, you're I think maybe you're seeing a five
dollar double. Chris is trying three dollars pick three out
in California. Yes, the answer to your questions, yes, we
need to get back to wagers that are.
Speaker 5 (34:58):
Larger.
Speaker 6 (34:58):
But here's the thing. If if if you've got sixteen
races and you're going to start with a two dollars
pick five, and you're going to follow two races with
a two dollars pick four, how are these people.
Speaker 4 (35:11):
Supposed to last?
Speaker 3 (35:13):
Yeah, you're churning money. You're churning everybody's money, and there
are too many options without a doubt. I don't remember
if you were listening to the show. A couple of
weeks ago, Mark Hannibal was on My cousin. He was
commenting along the same lines, which is, we're offering far
too many bets. You have to focus and you have
(35:33):
to create big pools and by limiting and using your
wagering opportunity and menu properly, and we're just not doing it.
Speaker 4 (35:39):
I agree with you completely.
Speaker 6 (35:41):
Now there's a man that understands.
Speaker 4 (35:45):
Because he agrees with you. Man.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
I just want to thank Michael and Gordon for coming on,
and Clay he's gone already, but I just want to
really thank you guys.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
I think it's a great show. I think we got
a pretty good message out there now to Andy. Thanks Freddie.
Speaker 7 (36:02):
I'm going to do a little bit of a return
to that conflict between the USTA and Diamond Creek. I'm
going to include a little bit more of that in
next Monday's Keeping Pace column at Pollock Report. I'm also
going to talk a little bit more about tariff. I
wrote about tariffs this past week and there was quite
a reaction to the story.
Speaker 4 (36:20):
I thought the big story involving.
Speaker 7 (36:24):
The USTA and that investigative committee would be over by now,
but there are still allegations and questions.
Speaker 4 (36:32):
Being raised about it. So again i'll try to get
into that.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Back to you, Fred, Thank you Andy. That's a wrap
for this week's show. Please join us again next week
the Hunness Racing Alumni Show
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