July 17, 2025 • 23 mins
On this week's Harness Racing Alumni Show, we are joined by international owner and breeder Gordon Banks. With Freddie and Bob, Banks reveals his thoughts on graded races and Triple Crown races. He feels that maybe it is time to change the Triple Crown races to the Meadowlands Pace, North America Cup and the Little Brown Jug as opposed to the current Messenger, Cane and Little Brown Jug. Gordon also believes that we should do much more in the promotion of our Triple Crown races. Don’t miss this interesting broadcast.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm pretty Hudson and I'm here with Bob Marx and
Trade Martin. This week's Harness Racing Alumni Show is brought
to you by the Meadowlands Racetrack, home of the Hamiltonian,
which will be celebrating its one hundredth edition on August second.
For more information call two one eight four three two
(00:21):
four four six our visit Laythmeeatlands dot com. The Harness
Racing Alumni Show with your host Freddie Hudson and Trade Martin.
Joining us today is international standardbred owner and breeder Gordon Banks. Gordon,
welcome back to the Harness Racing Alumni.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Show, riding. Nice to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Yeah, Gordon, you've made the headlines again. You basically were
talking to you had some info that you shared about
the Grade ones and our triple Crown races.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Tell us a little bit about that and your thoughts.
Speaker 4 (01:04):
Well, actually I felt a little funny about it because
I wrote it about four or five days after we
won the Messenger, which.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Had been a great one in about Grade too.
Speaker 4 (01:13):
It had nothing to do with that, but I wrote
it because it just struck me as completely nonsensical for
our sport to have triple Crown races that are considered
to be great too. I mean, if the Triple Crown
is to mean anything, if it's supposed to be the
most important races, just by definition, it has to be
great one. And that was really the thought behind what
(01:37):
I wrote, And as I wrote, I sort of spontaneously
came up with some alternatives, because realistically, nobody thinks that
the Triple Crown racers today are the most important races.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
They're really not.
Speaker 4 (01:51):
The Messenger isn't any longer and the Cain isn't any longer.
Those are not must go to races if you have
a top course. And it just seems to me that
my thought process was, okay, they perhaps they should be
great two races, which means they shouldn't be Triple Crown races.
And why not make the triple Crown races new? Why
(02:15):
not make them the obvious races they should be, which
is the Meadowlands, Pasty, North America Cup and the Little
Brown jug Make those are triple Crown races. Add in
the Breeder's Crown to make it not a Triple Crown
series but an appropriate name for a foursome, and also
tie in other concepts to help make them more promotable
(02:38):
and bigger, such as bonuses in Australia. Now they have
a series in New South Wales that has four legs
and if you win two of the legs you get
a five hundred thousand dollars bonus, the two hundred and
fifty thousand dollars bonus, if you win three you get
a five hundred thousand dollars bonus, and if you sweep
(02:59):
all you get a million dollar bonus. And this year
actually one horse did win three I think missed by
the head and the fourth leg, but something like that.
So there's a huge tie in between the races. There's
a big monetary.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Bonus. Ad it's going to make sure you have more entries.
Speaker 4 (03:18):
In those races, You're going to have better competition, you're
going to really have a showcase event, which Harn's racing needs.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
And I think that restructuring it that way makes sense.
And then.
Speaker 4 (03:30):
The notion that all we do is create graded races
based on purses, which I think is the underlying approach
that the USJA took, it's ridiculous. You don't need a
graded system if it's only going to be based on purses.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
It's senseless.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
Yeah, The other thing is, you know, we have two
triple grounds.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
We have the Basin triple ground and the trodden triple ground,
which is the Hamiltonian the Youngers trot, and the Kentucky maturity.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
You're making up to try.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
And end on it.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
Yeah, I didn't have timent on the signing end because
obviously the Hamiltonian is the most important. The Kentucky futurity.
Once you make an argument for uh, the Ancres trot,
I think it's pretty questionable now. But maybe if you created,
if you recreated it in in a big way again
(04:20):
with a bonus system, you might be able to rejuvenate
the Yancres trot.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
This year they had what it was five or six
centuries right, you know that it's it's farcical, and I
think it was a grade too.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
That that's ridiculous, it's undermining your own business, and it's
it's it's it's basically us saying to everybody that this
is a history cloud that has no correlation to reality,
which is a similar thing for the sport to do.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
I do think that we should promote the Triple crowns
a lot more, and I do think that we should
change the races to basically resflect on what the popular
races are now or our most prestigious races are like.
And I agree with you, the North America Cup and
the meadow lands Pace, along with the Little Brown jug
should be our triple Crown and we should we should
(05:15):
promote it.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
I don't know how we dropped the Cane.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
And the Messenger, but you have them as the Daily
Double Series or something like that.
Speaker 4 (05:26):
You know, you can give them something, but the fact
is that they have been dropped. You know, the Messenger,
uh is just basically an attraction for horses that don't
want to go to the metal lands Pace.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
UH.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
The outside media that is not connected with harness race
and when they see here a triple crown racing are,
they basically promote it. And like you can look at
a lot of the obituaries of people who have passed
along winner of a triple Crown race. It's all over
the place because they feel so much, there's so associated
(06:00):
with it. Through the thow Brets and Thets make a
fortune off the Kentucky Derby, the Belmont and the their freakness.
I mean, I think the Kentucky Derby, they've had like
three hundred million on it.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
This year, which, yeah, you could make the Triple Crown,
you could make the Harness Triple Crown a.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Really big event. And I think also, I'm sorry, you're.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
You're you're the handicapper here.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
What do you think do you think we could basically
have the Triple Crown races.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
Better presented?
Speaker 5 (06:35):
I think the Triple Crown race, the Triple Crown has
been obsolete for years. Basically, I mean, the cane pays
half the time, people don't even know where it's.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Actually scheduled for.
Speaker 5 (06:50):
Although in this particular case, I know because I'd like
to see Pappy's pistol get in there and possibly even
win it on hand the Tonian Day, But basically that's
not a triple Crown race. As Gordon is saying at
this stage of the game, the meadow Lands Pace, the
North American Cup and the Little Brown Jug those three races,
(07:13):
they certain certainly constitute a triple Crown. As far as
adding the Breeder's Crown, I don't think we need to
do that. What I would, personally, and I've been advocating
this for years, is that the Breeder's Crown should emulate
the Breeder's Cup, because just to have one more three
(07:36):
year old race in the Breeder's Crown. Now it's just
one more three year old race. But if they're for
three year olds and up as they do the thoroughbreds
in the Breeder's Cup, well then you have a completely
different dimension in terms of significance.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Hey, hey, Gordon, I also want to ask you about
about your push the Destiny.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
Tell us a little bit about that.
Speaker 4 (08:07):
Oh, he's he's a nice horse with a great name, well, Eric, Eric,
Eric Cherry, and I think odds on bread him out
of that Champion mayor the bad Lands Mayor of it.
He's the damn he's a better wish. We actually bought
into him pretty early in his three year old, in
(08:30):
his two year old season, and we didn't know that
he was going to be quite as good as he's been. Fact,
a week after we bought him, he had been originally
the second ball dropped. When the second ball dropped, it
seemed to improve him a lot. He finished the season
(08:52):
his two year old winning his last four state races
other one. They were secondary state races, but he looked
super and he won in one fifty one had the
Chester as a two year old easily, which was a
pretty impressive performance, and we had high hopes for him,
and we didn't stake him though to the really big
races this year, the Triple Crown races, because we thought,
(09:13):
you know, there were so many other things for him.
But it wasn't in the North American Company. He wasn't
in the middle ends pace. He did win the Messenger.
The only race he's been beaten in this year was
by half a length Looprint sitting in the pocket in
a Sida State leg and spoken of where he came
home in twenty six flat gaming on the Looprint, he
(09:34):
beat Captain Optimistic, he beat Prince hal Hanover. He's just
been incredible. He wants to win, and he knows how
to win, and he's just a very very good horse.
He's pretty heavily steaked now the rest of the year.
He has the Adios coming up next week, and then
he has the mill.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
Stein in Ohio. He has the Hand, he has the
Pennsylvania Fire Stakes.
Speaker 4 (09:58):
He's also as it was a drug preview, and he
has all the races in Indiana.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
So he's got a pretty big year ahead of it.
He continues to look the way's been showing.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
No you mentioned the Idios. Let's talk a little bit
about the Idios.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Now, that's another race that could possibly be thrown into
the Triple crowned mix.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Yeah, it is.
Speaker 4 (10:24):
It's I think I think there are many ways you
could you could look at it, but I think the
major reason for not having it be part of a
Triple Crown race is the timing, because it falls right
after the meadowlands Pace, And if you're really going to
have a Triple Crown series and promoted properly, I think
(10:45):
the time sequence is important.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Look at how the Thoroughbreds do it. You have when
we do it.
Speaker 4 (10:51):
You have the you have the North America Cup, and
then two weeks later you have a meadowlands Pace, and
then it's pretty hard to come back the next week
and have the Idios. It would be better to spread
it out a little bit if you're going to try
to do something like that.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Well, you know, with our Triple count races, I don't
even know when they're scheduled, but I can tell you
when the throw brids are scheduled their first Saturday in May,
and then two weeks later and then three weeks later.
I mean, that's how simple that is. We should have
a simple FORMU were just like that.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Yeah, I think that's right. I think everything should be
done to help the public and the press.
Speaker 4 (11:34):
Focus on the races. We want them to focus on
the same thing with the owners and the entries. And
I think that there should be ways that in these
big races. I think I mentioned in the post for me,
if I were doing it, whoever wins a leg can
supplement to the next leg so that you have an
(11:56):
insurance going forward that you continually have the best horses.
I think that in our sport we have a tendency
to have big races where we don't have all the
best horses together, and I think that is a bad
thing for the industry. I think that's the problem with
the slot races. They don't generate the best horses. They
get one or two good horses and the rest are
(12:17):
usually fillers. But maybe in a slot racist. Not much
you can do about it, but there should be some
discussion on it, because I don't mean to belittle the
idea of great stakes, but that's a useless concept if
it's only based on size of purse, because people can
judge from the size of the purse how important the races.
(12:39):
You don't have to say, okay, above, this is one,
below this is two. That's sort of silly. It should
be a combination of factors. History is one of them,
and importance in the season and availability and image. We
have to create the importance. There are triple crown. As
Bob said, I think a lot of the industry wouldn't
even know what the triple ground races are, let.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Alone where the cane is. I agree with them. I
didn't know where the cane was. I wasn't sure, right.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
And Joe, I know that the Hamiltonians coming up, and
I think that's going to be a great race from
what I can sidy with some of the horses that
are going to be in the Hamiltonian this year. It
is the one hundredth edition of the Hamiltonian. That does
make it a very special occasion.
Speaker 4 (13:24):
Yeah, it should be very heavily promoted, and it should
be something that the industry is really trying to get
into the press and Sports Illustrated and on some of
the ESPN shows. And I'm not saying they're not. I
have no idea whether they are they're not, but I
haven't seen it, and you're right, it should be a
very good race.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
This year.
Speaker 4 (13:44):
There is a lot of history. This seems that our
sport doesn't know how to promote itself. And there's a
you know, a movement to try to create three to
five million dollars race either in Lexington or perhaps one
of Jeff Garral's tracks, that would be self funded. It
wouldn't require any funding from the race track. I don't
(14:08):
know if that's going to go anywhere or not. It's
being worked on now, but it's a very good idea.
If you get a brace that big that would be
self funded, that would be able to promote racing and
even perhaps attract people to casinos through racing, which is
a concept of course that sort of turns the mirror
the other way. There are a lot of things that
(14:30):
could be done. There are a lot of people in
the industry that are trying to get things done, but
none of them start from the tracks. They're all starting
from private individuals that are trying to push ideas to
help the industry, which is sad commentary on the leadership
in the industry.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Yeah, you know the other thing that doesn't Australia have
like a two million dollar race or something to that effect.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
Yeah, it's a slot race. One of our horses was
a one in the race.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
Last year. But and that's a big event there. It's
a two point one million dollar race called the Eureka
and it's a different concept. It's only for Australian bread
horses and uh, it's.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
It's a it's a it's a well promoted event. They
they give out nine.
Speaker 4 (15:23):
Slots of the tent is a swot owned by the
track and the people who pay for the slots are
assessed on how much they can promote and push the event.
So they're all very active and they're all big companies
and businesses, are very wealthy individuals that are committed to
spending their time and resources to push the event. So
(15:44):
it's a highly promoted event and they had a huge
crowd there last year for it. It's it's a it's
a great race, it really is. It's just again it
doesn't always get the best horses because people have their
own horses and then they they grant some slot choices early.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
The horses that look.
Speaker 4 (16:05):
Good in March and April, and you know half the
time they're not so good in October when the race occurs.
Speaker 3 (16:13):
Yeah, Pat, how is your down understable doing?
Speaker 4 (16:18):
Maybe Bob's is doing better. We've cut back quite a
bit down Under. We have a nice three year old
is one of the three or four best three year
old pacing Phillies there. Philly named Themaca that maybe we'll
bring over to the States late this year so that
we can race the mistakes thereafter.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
But we've cut back. It's harder just to control.
Speaker 4 (16:43):
I used to go down there with Mark once or
twice every year, and I was there this year, but
I don't go enough. And it's no good to run
a business when you're not there enough. And they're having
a lot of difficulties down Under. We cut it back.
So it's been okay because it back.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Yeah, did didn't you say the last time you went
to your plane ticket was like ten thousand dollars?
Speaker 2 (17:07):
Well you have to go to business class.
Speaker 4 (17:09):
Now it's going to be the best case, something like
six thousand if you book it a long ended taps
and but I used to do it. You know quickly
it's going to be ten to ten to fourteen thousand.
And the hotels that used to be three or five
hundred dollars and now a thousand. Everything has of course
gone up, just like everywhere else.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
In the world. But it's not really the cost of
it that is so so terrible. Thank goodness, I can
handle that.
Speaker 4 (17:38):
But the trip is long, and it's not so much
fun any longer to fly the way it used to be,
you know, you have to.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
It's just disconcerting.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
I mean, one thing I didn't get amazed that was
the anti American feeling everywhere I was in Europe earlier
in the season, and it's just that there's a strong
sentiment that's anti American where we are now that I
haven't seen in a long time.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
I can imagine that, Hey, hey, Bob, did you want
to jump in here and ask anything? Say that against sir,
did you want to jump in here and ask Gordon anything?
Speaker 5 (18:18):
I think basically what Gordon is saying is accurate. As
I said before, you know, we started out. We started
out to discuss things about the Triple Crown. The Triple
Crown has been archaic for years. I mean, you're way
back in the eighties when I was doing the news
letter inside Boardwalk. I mean, we've had a column which
(18:41):
I wrote and it basically it was like it's time
to consider grading stakes. Well, we finally have gotten around
to it. Have we graded the right ones the right way.
I'm not so sure about that, but at least it
was a beginning as far as the Triple Crown is concerned. Yeah,
(19:02):
the Triple Crown should be very meaningful, and I just
don't really think it is in pacing if you include
the Cane and the Messenger, because neither one of them
are top flight races anymore. They haven't been for years. Actually,
they've been vagabond races if they went into different locations.
(19:23):
I mean, the one thing you don't see with the
Thoroughbreds is them changing the locations to Kentucky Derby the
first Saturday in May, you know, and you go over
to Maryland for the breakness and then all right, Belmont
you couldn't go through this year because it's under construction,
so they had to have development stakes up in Saratoga,
but it was still in New York.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:46):
I think that's an important point. It's all part of
the same approach to maximize the awareness of the big races.
By the way, a point I hadn't mentioned until you
asked about the Idios.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
The one thing I like about the Adios being one
of the Triple Crown races is that.
Speaker 4 (20:03):
It would mean that the Triple Crown would be on
three different sized tracks. You have the miles the Meadowlands,
a half mile with the jug and a five eighths
in the Idios. I happen to like that, but without
a doubt that North America Cup uh, you know, deserves something.
It certainly is as important as any of the others.
(20:23):
But there is something to be said for the Idios.
If you rejuvenated, it.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Has to be it has to be pushed, Gordon.
Speaker 5 (20:30):
If we were going to do that, then simply make
it a Grand Slam instead of a Triple Crown.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Yeah, I agree with that. I agree with that. I
don't have a problem.
Speaker 4 (20:42):
I was thinking about that with the with the Breeder's Crown,
but I understand your point on the Breeder's Crown.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
You could do it with the Adios.
Speaker 4 (20:50):
And and you know, you have to guarantee that the
winners of all four would get into the Breeder's Crown,
because I think that would be silly if not the case.
Regardless of payments, they have to be able to get in.
And then you make the Breeder's Crown something special like
the like the Thoroughbreds.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
I'm all for that.
Speaker 4 (21:10):
Anything that helps promote the present to build the future
instead of recognizing history is a step forward. We have
too many we do too many things that don't make sense,
and nothing is being promoted intelligently.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
So yeah, recently we just did the Carmain and Abertello
tribute to find out that went over pretty well. We've
had over two thousand views on and so far, which
is pretty good for harness raising.
Speaker 4 (21:45):
Yeah, that was a special time. That was a great time.
And he was he was the King of Yorkers.
Speaker 3 (21:53):
Yep, king of King of half milers. I think that's
what was.
Speaker 4 (21:58):
Anyways, you know, I remember he came over to the
metal ant after people thought, oh, he wouldn't be able
to have the metal ants. He really could. He didn't
get the best drive, but he could. He he was
a top driver, as they would out a doubt.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
Oh yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
People forget when the meadow Lands opened up back in
seventy six, a lot of trainers who didn't drive horses
on a half mile track started driving horses.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
On the mile track because everyone at that time.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Was like racing on a mile track was a lot
easier than racing on a half mile track. Yeah, I
think one trainer got really hurt over there about you
remember Steve Demis, Remember he was driving a horse over
there and he hit the ground hard, and I don't
think he ever drove in a race after that. That
was seventy six. But then, and then all of a sudden,
(22:47):
the catch drivers started coming in probably about seventy eight
and basically switched over the train to squit driving horses,
and they started racing on the mile track like it
was a last half on a half mile track.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Yeah, you see that sometimes.
Speaker 3 (23:03):
Gordon, thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
It's a pleasure allway.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
That's a wrap for this week's show. Thanks for listening,
and please join us again next week
Speaker 3 (23:15):
The hun Is Racing Alumni Show
I'm pretty Hudson and I'm here with Bob Marx and
Trade Martin. This week's Harness Racing Alumni Show is brought
to you by the Meadowlands Racetrack, home of the Hamiltonian,
which will be celebrating its one hundredth edition on August second.
For more information call two one eight four three two
(00:21):
four four six our visit Laythmeeatlands dot com. The Harness
Racing Alumni Show with your host Freddie Hudson and Trade Martin.
Joining us today is international standardbred owner and breeder Gordon Banks. Gordon,
welcome back to the Harness Racing Alumni.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Show, riding. Nice to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Yeah, Gordon, you've made the headlines again. You basically were
talking to you had some info that you shared about
the Grade ones and our triple Crown races.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Tell us a little bit about that and your thoughts.
Speaker 4 (01:04):
Well, actually I felt a little funny about it because
I wrote it about four or five days after we
won the Messenger, which.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Had been a great one in about Grade too.
Speaker 4 (01:13):
It had nothing to do with that, but I wrote
it because it just struck me as completely nonsensical for
our sport to have triple Crown races that are considered
to be great too. I mean, if the Triple Crown
is to mean anything, if it's supposed to be the
most important races, just by definition, it has to be
great one. And that was really the thought behind what
(01:37):
I wrote, And as I wrote, I sort of spontaneously
came up with some alternatives, because realistically, nobody thinks that
the Triple Crown racers today are the most important races.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
They're really not.
Speaker 4 (01:51):
The Messenger isn't any longer and the Cain isn't any longer.
Those are not must go to races if you have
a top course. And it just seems to me that
my thought process was, okay, they perhaps they should be
great two races, which means they shouldn't be Triple Crown races.
And why not make the triple Crown races new? Why
(02:15):
not make them the obvious races they should be, which
is the Meadowlands, Pasty, North America Cup and the Little
Brown jug Make those are triple Crown races. Add in
the Breeder's Crown to make it not a Triple Crown
series but an appropriate name for a foursome, and also
tie in other concepts to help make them more promotable
(02:38):
and bigger, such as bonuses in Australia. Now they have
a series in New South Wales that has four legs
and if you win two of the legs you get
a five hundred thousand dollars bonus, the two hundred and
fifty thousand dollars bonus, if you win three you get
a five hundred thousand dollars bonus, and if you sweep
(02:59):
all you get a million dollar bonus. And this year
actually one horse did win three I think missed by
the head and the fourth leg, but something like that.
So there's a huge tie in between the races. There's
a big monetary.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Bonus. Ad it's going to make sure you have more entries.
Speaker 4 (03:18):
In those races, You're going to have better competition, you're
going to really have a showcase event, which Harn's racing needs.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
And I think that restructuring it that way makes sense.
And then.
Speaker 4 (03:30):
The notion that all we do is create graded races
based on purses, which I think is the underlying approach
that the USJA took, it's ridiculous. You don't need a
graded system if it's only going to be based on purses.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
It's senseless.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
Yeah, The other thing is, you know, we have two
triple grounds.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
We have the Basin triple ground and the trodden triple ground,
which is the Hamiltonian the Youngers trot, and the Kentucky maturity.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
You're making up to try.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
And end on it.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
Yeah, I didn't have timent on the signing end because
obviously the Hamiltonian is the most important. The Kentucky futurity.
Once you make an argument for uh, the Ancres trot,
I think it's pretty questionable now. But maybe if you created,
if you recreated it in in a big way again
(04:20):
with a bonus system, you might be able to rejuvenate
the Yancres trot.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
This year they had what it was five or six
centuries right, you know that it's it's farcical, and I
think it was a grade too.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
That that's ridiculous, it's undermining your own business, and it's
it's it's it's basically us saying to everybody that this
is a history cloud that has no correlation to reality,
which is a similar thing for the sport to do.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
I do think that we should promote the Triple crowns
a lot more, and I do think that we should
change the races to basically resflect on what the popular
races are now or our most prestigious races are like.
And I agree with you, the North America Cup and
the meadow lands Pace, along with the Little Brown jug
should be our triple Crown and we should we should
(05:15):
promote it.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
I don't know how we dropped the Cane.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
And the Messenger, but you have them as the Daily
Double Series or something like that.
Speaker 4 (05:26):
You know, you can give them something, but the fact
is that they have been dropped. You know, the Messenger,
uh is just basically an attraction for horses that don't
want to go to the metal lands Pace.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
UH.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
The outside media that is not connected with harness race
and when they see here a triple crown racing are,
they basically promote it. And like you can look at
a lot of the obituaries of people who have passed
along winner of a triple Crown race. It's all over
the place because they feel so much, there's so associated
(06:00):
with it. Through the thow Brets and Thets make a
fortune off the Kentucky Derby, the Belmont and the their freakness.
I mean, I think the Kentucky Derby, they've had like
three hundred million on it.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
This year, which, yeah, you could make the Triple Crown,
you could make the Harness Triple Crown a.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Really big event. And I think also, I'm sorry, you're.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
You're you're the handicapper here.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
What do you think do you think we could basically
have the Triple Crown races.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
Better presented?
Speaker 5 (06:35):
I think the Triple Crown race, the Triple Crown has
been obsolete for years. Basically, I mean, the cane pays
half the time, people don't even know where it's.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Actually scheduled for.
Speaker 5 (06:50):
Although in this particular case, I know because I'd like
to see Pappy's pistol get in there and possibly even
win it on hand the Tonian Day, But basically that's
not a triple Crown race. As Gordon is saying at
this stage of the game, the meadow Lands Pace, the
North American Cup and the Little Brown Jug those three races,
(07:13):
they certain certainly constitute a triple Crown. As far as
adding the Breeder's Crown, I don't think we need to
do that. What I would, personally, and I've been advocating
this for years, is that the Breeder's Crown should emulate
the Breeder's Cup, because just to have one more three
(07:36):
year old race in the Breeder's Crown. Now it's just
one more three year old race. But if they're for
three year olds and up as they do the thoroughbreds
in the Breeder's Cup, well then you have a completely
different dimension in terms of significance.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Hey, hey, Gordon, I also want to ask you about
about your push the Destiny.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
Tell us a little bit about that.
Speaker 4 (08:07):
Oh, he's he's a nice horse with a great name, well, Eric, Eric,
Eric Cherry, and I think odds on bread him out
of that Champion mayor the bad Lands Mayor of it.
He's the damn he's a better wish. We actually bought
into him pretty early in his three year old, in
(08:30):
his two year old season, and we didn't know that
he was going to be quite as good as he's been. Fact,
a week after we bought him, he had been originally
the second ball dropped. When the second ball dropped, it
seemed to improve him a lot. He finished the season
(08:52):
his two year old winning his last four state races
other one. They were secondary state races, but he looked
super and he won in one fifty one had the
Chester as a two year old easily, which was a
pretty impressive performance, and we had high hopes for him,
and we didn't stake him though to the really big
races this year, the Triple Crown races, because we thought,
(09:13):
you know, there were so many other things for him.
But it wasn't in the North American Company. He wasn't
in the middle ends pace. He did win the Messenger.
The only race he's been beaten in this year was
by half a length Looprint sitting in the pocket in
a Sida State leg and spoken of where he came
home in twenty six flat gaming on the Looprint, he
(09:34):
beat Captain Optimistic, he beat Prince hal Hanover. He's just
been incredible. He wants to win, and he knows how
to win, and he's just a very very good horse.
He's pretty heavily steaked now the rest of the year.
He has the Adios coming up next week, and then
he has the mill.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
Stein in Ohio. He has the Hand, he has the
Pennsylvania Fire Stakes.
Speaker 4 (09:58):
He's also as it was a drug preview, and he
has all the races in Indiana.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
So he's got a pretty big year ahead of it.
He continues to look the way's been showing.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
No you mentioned the Idios. Let's talk a little bit
about the Idios.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Now, that's another race that could possibly be thrown into
the Triple crowned mix.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Yeah, it is.
Speaker 4 (10:24):
It's I think I think there are many ways you
could you could look at it, but I think the
major reason for not having it be part of a
Triple Crown race is the timing, because it falls right
after the meadowlands Pace, And if you're really going to
have a Triple Crown series and promoted properly, I think
(10:45):
the time sequence is important.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Look at how the Thoroughbreds do it. You have when
we do it.
Speaker 4 (10:51):
You have the you have the North America Cup, and
then two weeks later you have a meadowlands Pace, and
then it's pretty hard to come back the next week
and have the Idios. It would be better to spread
it out a little bit if you're going to try
to do something like that.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Well, you know, with our Triple count races, I don't
even know when they're scheduled, but I can tell you
when the throw brids are scheduled their first Saturday in May,
and then two weeks later and then three weeks later.
I mean, that's how simple that is. We should have
a simple FORMU were just like that.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Yeah, I think that's right. I think everything should be
done to help the public and the press.
Speaker 4 (11:34):
Focus on the races. We want them to focus on
the same thing with the owners and the entries. And
I think that there should be ways that in these
big races. I think I mentioned in the post for me,
if I were doing it, whoever wins a leg can
supplement to the next leg so that you have an
(11:56):
insurance going forward that you continually have the best horses.
I think that in our sport we have a tendency
to have big races where we don't have all the
best horses together, and I think that is a bad
thing for the industry. I think that's the problem with
the slot races. They don't generate the best horses. They
get one or two good horses and the rest are
(12:17):
usually fillers. But maybe in a slot racist. Not much
you can do about it, but there should be some
discussion on it, because I don't mean to belittle the
idea of great stakes, but that's a useless concept if
it's only based on size of purse, because people can
judge from the size of the purse how important the races.
(12:39):
You don't have to say, okay, above, this is one,
below this is two. That's sort of silly. It should
be a combination of factors. History is one of them,
and importance in the season and availability and image. We
have to create the importance. There are triple crown. As
Bob said, I think a lot of the industry wouldn't
even know what the triple ground races are, let.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Alone where the cane is. I agree with them. I
didn't know where the cane was. I wasn't sure, right.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
And Joe, I know that the Hamiltonians coming up, and
I think that's going to be a great race from
what I can sidy with some of the horses that
are going to be in the Hamiltonian this year. It
is the one hundredth edition of the Hamiltonian. That does
make it a very special occasion.
Speaker 4 (13:24):
Yeah, it should be very heavily promoted, and it should
be something that the industry is really trying to get
into the press and Sports Illustrated and on some of
the ESPN shows. And I'm not saying they're not. I
have no idea whether they are they're not, but I
haven't seen it, and you're right, it should be a
very good race.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
This year.
Speaker 4 (13:44):
There is a lot of history. This seems that our
sport doesn't know how to promote itself. And there's a
you know, a movement to try to create three to
five million dollars race either in Lexington or perhaps one
of Jeff Garral's tracks, that would be self funded. It
wouldn't require any funding from the race track. I don't
(14:08):
know if that's going to go anywhere or not. It's
being worked on now, but it's a very good idea.
If you get a brace that big that would be
self funded, that would be able to promote racing and
even perhaps attract people to casinos through racing, which is
a concept of course that sort of turns the mirror
the other way. There are a lot of things that
(14:30):
could be done. There are a lot of people in
the industry that are trying to get things done, but
none of them start from the tracks. They're all starting
from private individuals that are trying to push ideas to
help the industry, which is sad commentary on the leadership
in the industry.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Yeah, you know the other thing that doesn't Australia have
like a two million dollar race or something to that effect.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
Yeah, it's a slot race. One of our horses was
a one in the race.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
Last year. But and that's a big event there. It's
a two point one million dollar race called the Eureka
and it's a different concept. It's only for Australian bread
horses and uh, it's.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
It's a it's a it's a well promoted event. They
they give out nine.
Speaker 4 (15:23):
Slots of the tent is a swot owned by the
track and the people who pay for the slots are
assessed on how much they can promote and push the event.
So they're all very active and they're all big companies
and businesses, are very wealthy individuals that are committed to
spending their time and resources to push the event. So
(15:44):
it's a highly promoted event and they had a huge
crowd there last year for it. It's it's a it's
a great race, it really is. It's just again it
doesn't always get the best horses because people have their
own horses and then they they grant some slot choices early.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
The horses that look.
Speaker 4 (16:05):
Good in March and April, and you know half the
time they're not so good in October when the race occurs.
Speaker 3 (16:13):
Yeah, Pat, how is your down understable doing?
Speaker 4 (16:18):
Maybe Bob's is doing better. We've cut back quite a
bit down Under. We have a nice three year old
is one of the three or four best three year
old pacing Phillies there. Philly named Themaca that maybe we'll
bring over to the States late this year so that
we can race the mistakes thereafter.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
But we've cut back. It's harder just to control.
Speaker 4 (16:43):
I used to go down there with Mark once or
twice every year, and I was there this year, but
I don't go enough. And it's no good to run
a business when you're not there enough. And they're having
a lot of difficulties down Under. We cut it back.
So it's been okay because it back.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Yeah, did didn't you say the last time you went
to your plane ticket was like ten thousand dollars?
Speaker 2 (17:07):
Well you have to go to business class.
Speaker 4 (17:09):
Now it's going to be the best case, something like
six thousand if you book it a long ended taps
and but I used to do it. You know quickly
it's going to be ten to ten to fourteen thousand.
And the hotels that used to be three or five
hundred dollars and now a thousand. Everything has of course
gone up, just like everywhere else.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
In the world. But it's not really the cost of
it that is so so terrible. Thank goodness, I can
handle that.
Speaker 4 (17:38):
But the trip is long, and it's not so much
fun any longer to fly the way it used to be,
you know, you have to.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
It's just disconcerting.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
I mean, one thing I didn't get amazed that was
the anti American feeling everywhere I was in Europe earlier
in the season, and it's just that there's a strong
sentiment that's anti American where we are now that I
haven't seen in a long time.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
I can imagine that, Hey, hey, Bob, did you want
to jump in here and ask anything? Say that against sir,
did you want to jump in here and ask Gordon anything?
Speaker 5 (18:18):
I think basically what Gordon is saying is accurate. As
I said before, you know, we started out. We started
out to discuss things about the Triple Crown. The Triple
Crown has been archaic for years. I mean, you're way
back in the eighties when I was doing the news
letter inside Boardwalk. I mean, we've had a column which
(18:41):
I wrote and it basically it was like it's time
to consider grading stakes. Well, we finally have gotten around
to it. Have we graded the right ones the right way.
I'm not so sure about that, but at least it
was a beginning as far as the Triple Crown is concerned. Yeah,
(19:02):
the Triple Crown should be very meaningful, and I just
don't really think it is in pacing if you include
the Cane and the Messenger, because neither one of them
are top flight races anymore. They haven't been for years. Actually,
they've been vagabond races if they went into different locations.
(19:23):
I mean, the one thing you don't see with the
Thoroughbreds is them changing the locations to Kentucky Derby the
first Saturday in May, you know, and you go over
to Maryland for the breakness and then all right, Belmont
you couldn't go through this year because it's under construction,
so they had to have development stakes up in Saratoga,
but it was still in New York.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:46):
I think that's an important point. It's all part of
the same approach to maximize the awareness of the big races.
By the way, a point I hadn't mentioned until you
asked about the Idios.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
The one thing I like about the Adios being one
of the Triple Crown races is that.
Speaker 4 (20:03):
It would mean that the Triple Crown would be on
three different sized tracks. You have the miles the Meadowlands,
a half mile with the jug and a five eighths
in the Idios. I happen to like that, but without
a doubt that North America Cup uh, you know, deserves something.
It certainly is as important as any of the others.
(20:23):
But there is something to be said for the Idios.
If you rejuvenated, it.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Has to be it has to be pushed, Gordon.
Speaker 5 (20:30):
If we were going to do that, then simply make
it a Grand Slam instead of a Triple Crown.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Yeah, I agree with that. I agree with that. I
don't have a problem.
Speaker 4 (20:42):
I was thinking about that with the with the Breeder's Crown,
but I understand your point on the Breeder's Crown.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
You could do it with the Adios.
Speaker 4 (20:50):
And and you know, you have to guarantee that the
winners of all four would get into the Breeder's Crown,
because I think that would be silly if not the case.
Regardless of payments, they have to be able to get in.
And then you make the Breeder's Crown something special like
the like the Thoroughbreds.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
I'm all for that.
Speaker 4 (21:10):
Anything that helps promote the present to build the future
instead of recognizing history is a step forward. We have
too many we do too many things that don't make sense,
and nothing is being promoted intelligently.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
So yeah, recently we just did the Carmain and Abertello
tribute to find out that went over pretty well. We've
had over two thousand views on and so far, which
is pretty good for harness raising.
Speaker 4 (21:45):
Yeah, that was a special time. That was a great time.
And he was he was the King of Yorkers.
Speaker 3 (21:53):
Yep, king of King of half milers. I think that's
what was.
Speaker 4 (21:58):
Anyways, you know, I remember he came over to the
metal ant after people thought, oh, he wouldn't be able
to have the metal ants. He really could. He didn't
get the best drive, but he could. He he was
a top driver, as they would out a doubt.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
Oh yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
People forget when the meadow Lands opened up back in
seventy six, a lot of trainers who didn't drive horses
on a half mile track started driving horses.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
On the mile track because everyone at that time.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Was like racing on a mile track was a lot
easier than racing on a half mile track. Yeah, I
think one trainer got really hurt over there about you
remember Steve Demis, Remember he was driving a horse over
there and he hit the ground hard, and I don't
think he ever drove in a race after that. That
was seventy six. But then, and then all of a sudden,
(22:47):
the catch drivers started coming in probably about seventy eight
and basically switched over the train to squit driving horses,
and they started racing on the mile track like it
was a last half on a half mile track.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Yeah, you see that sometimes.
Speaker 3 (23:03):
Gordon, thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
It's a pleasure allway.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
That's a wrap for this week's show. Thanks for listening,
and please join us again next week
Speaker 3 (23:15):
The hun Is Racing Alumni Show
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