May 8, 2025 • 25 mins
This week's Harness Racing Alumni Show presents some of Kentucky's top Standardbred Breeders. Steve Stewart of Hunterton Farm, Michelle Crawford of Crawford Farms, and Shaun Laungani of Dimond Creek Farms. Our guests discuss the successful breeding and racing programs in the state of Kentucky. All on this week's broadcast.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Harness Racing Alumni Show, brought to you
by Competitive Markets Action. I'm Freddie Hudson and I'm here
today with Blob.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Marx THEES Racing Alumni Show.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Joining us this week on our special show discussing the
successful standard bread breeding and racing program in the state
of Kentucky, we have from Hunterton Farms, Steve Stewart, from
Crawford Farms, Michelle Crawford, and from Diamond Creek Farms, Sean LECGANI, Steve,
Michelle and Sean Welcome to the Harness Racing Alumni Show.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Hello.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Hey, Okay, now, guys, I want this to be like
an open conversation, so jump in anytime that you want,
but also, you know, just say who you are when
you talk.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Steve, I'm going to start with you. Why has Kentucky.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Emerged as the best place to be breeding and racing
standard breds?
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Well, we used to not be able to say that,
but I think we're heading in that direction for sure,
if we're not already there. Uh, it pretty much started.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
I don't know how many.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
It's always more years than you than you remember, but
it was when they passed the law in Kentucky for
instant racing machines, and they had got it from I
think Oaklawn or whatever, and they were able to uh
uh copycat damn. And then there was a really big
(01:32):
court battle for a while. The something Foundation or whatever,
the basically a church group had said that it was illegal,
that it was not you know, that the racing could
not use slot machine slash instant racing machines or whatever.
(01:52):
And then they do look like slot machines or whatever.
But anyways, and then they finally settled it about two
years ago or whatever. And then and since then it's
really exploded. The Red Mile did not do hardly any
advertising waiting for waiting for it to waiting for it
(02:12):
to uh get settled. But since then or whatever, it's
generating an incredible amount of money and for the for
the program and and and we've done a very very
good job of we've done a very very good job
of uh I think, uh distributing the money. There is
no breeders awards, so all the money goes to UH
(02:35):
purses and so uh consequently, you know, I think our
programs between twenty and twenty five million dollars. But the
main thing we tried to do is to make sure
that and I think that's what really helps is it's
a red Mile. There's several there's there's several uh getter
back up, there's several tiers or whatever. We have three
(02:58):
tiers plus thet which is non winners of like two
races or whatever that so there's lots of different levels
that you can race for at the Red Mile. And
then we've got the other two tracks. So they've built
two tracks that are south of in the south of
the state, and they are generating a lot of money
(03:24):
pretty much because of Tennessee has no casinos, are no
gambling there, so they strategically put them along the state.
One is north of Knoxville and the other one is
north of Nashville, and they generate an incredible amount of money.
I mean, just to give you an idea. I haven't
looked this year, but last year I looked on June tenth,
(03:47):
the Oak Grove had bet one point six billion. That's
what the b one point six billion in handle for
the machines at that at the track north of Nashville,
which equates at that time it was five months and
ten days, which equals I think ten million dollars a day,
(04:11):
which is really incredible.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
So that's pretty much the reason.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Okay, Michelle, what encouraged you to move part of your
reading operation to Kentucky? And how do you find Kentucky
different from New York?
Speaker 4 (04:25):
Good question. We kind of, I think we're a little
bit ahead of it. We were starting to see the trend,
you know, and the money that was coming into Kentucky,
and you know, we thought at that time it would
be good just to have you know, some resident mayors.
And we're not in the stallion business, you know, like
Diamond Creek, but obviously with the stallion you know, you
get the bonus program and then if you have your
(04:48):
you know, your mayor's sitting there for one hundred and
eighty days, you can go back and forth. But you know,
we are a very large breeder, as you know in
New York. So we started to look at the program
and starting to see the dribbles of you know what,
the duly eligible yearlings we're selling for, and we thought, hey,
(05:08):
you know, maybe we'll just get a plot of land
and we'll just put some horses there and do residency
and we can make up you know, some of this
income you know for the farm in how we sell
the yearlings. But the money just kept getting better and better,
and I mean, to be honest, it kind of balloon.
We ended up buying a farm and it's become more
of a full geared operation start to finish, and to
(05:32):
have resident mayors and mares that are shipping back and forth.
I mean, you have a five day window. You know,
you're you've got to be very precise, so sometimes the
math doesn't work out, but it's very I mean I've
seen in the P and L alone when you can
show up in Lexington and say, hey, I have duly eligible.
I mean there's a premium for that, and buyers will
(05:54):
buy something that they can race in New York and Kentucky.
For whatever reason, it doesn't get around New York or
we've you know, been angled to schedule a little bit
so that they can actually race in all of the
different programs. I mean, there are some conflicts and there's
some work to be had with that, but you know,
you now start in you have four year old programs
(06:14):
in Kentucky. You know, the bonus programs by themselves are
worth it all day long. And you have Oak Grove
and then you go right to the Red Mile and
you have all of the different series, and then you
have Cumberland late closers, and you know the late races
for the stakes and at the end of the year.
So I don't see how you don't consider it. I
think you're at a loss if you're a farm and
(06:35):
you don't have either duly eligible or a farm in Kentucky.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Okay, Sean, can you tell us a little bit more
about the stallion incentives and the dual at dual eligibility?
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Sure?
Speaker 5 (06:50):
Ready, So it's it's it takes a minute to explain.
Sometimes we're trying to work on how to shorten it
so you can really understand it really easily. But essentially,
if you breed to a stallion that's based in Kentucky
and the mayor is also a resident of Kentucky for
six months in the year that she's bred, well, then
(07:10):
that foal, that resulting foal will receive fifty percent person
bonus on any money earned in Kentucky Sire States any
of the breed development races, all divisions, all levels, including
the fairs at all three tracks in Kentucky. So last
year Luna love Good was kind of the big winner
(07:30):
of Kentucky. I think she made the most for this
eligible bonus program because she's by the stallion chimpanzee that
we stand in Kentucky. And so those owners received over
sixty thousand dollars in money. I don't even know if
they were expecting at the end of the year, which
was fifty persmonus on the money she had earned in
those races.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
Okay, now this question is pretty much for everyone. What
is Kentucky doing to prepare for the onslaughter of people
meeting train and other breeders and owners all moving to Kentucky.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Steve, we'll start with you.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
Well, well, the one major thing was that the Red
Model is not open for winter training, and so there
was a great lack of stalls and places for trainers
to to train.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
And they were able to.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
Some entrepreneurial guys from Versales. Educated people call it Versailles,
but US Kentucky people call it Versales Is, which is
about fifteen miles from or so whatever from Lexington and
probably about two miles from Crawford Farms, right down past
the airport or whatever. They're building a training center.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
And I think.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
They didn't put that in for me, Steve, that he
didn't get that into.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
For me, well, just getting the truth out anyway.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
But anyway, I need to fold this mare. But I'm
going to come right back to you guys. Do you
all talk.
Speaker 5 (09:07):
It's mostly closest to Michelle, the Hybrandle Park property, and
it's on pains Mill Road. It's probably only three minutes
down the road from Crawford Farms, and it's probably only
twenty minutes twenty five minutes of traffic from the Red Mile.
You know, I know they'd hoped to have it done
in the spring. We had a terrible winter. But I
know they're moving a ton of dirt, putting up barns
(09:28):
as fast as they can, trying to have it ready
as soon as they can. I believe they have a
fair date approved to have fair Race in there in
August and then as far as I know, as many
stalls as they can build. There are trainers that are
ready to move horses in, so the demand is there.
So I would imagine you're going to see a big
(09:48):
Midwest migration of trainers moving their operations, at least part
of them this way.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Hey, hey, Sean, Now the handles are everything is up
and content right now. The Kentucky Derby had three hundred
and forty million viewers watch it this year. That's a
record from like nineteen eighty nine. And I was just
told that Oak Grove the handle is up of twenty
four percent. Do you see the handles increasing in Kentucky
(10:16):
now that everything's starting to move and focus.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
There thoroughbred wise?
Speaker 5 (10:22):
I think on the biggest days, yes, the average days
in Kentucky yes as well, because the field sizes have
been so good with all the HHR funds and you know,
we have maiden races go for up to one hundred
and twenty thousand dollars, and everybody in the country wants
to raise here what we in the standardbred world, like
Oak grows success here recently, Kidos to them is out
(10:46):
of creativity and good. I think it's good, good card planning.
I don't know ifho many noticed, but they ran like
four or they raised like four or five eight races
the other day on a day where they had four
year old Kentucky our Stakes racist and they were fascinating.
I mean, you had it's it's the track isn't set
up perfect for five eighths, like like it is the
(11:08):
metalands necessarily, but you had two and three wide all
the way around. I mean, some really exciting racing, and
I'm sure that's part of why they're handles doing better.
You know, all the tracks need to continue to be
creative with their with their conditions and the race planning
just to put out a competitive product. We have all
this money, all the stakes development money or breed development
(11:30):
money available, but it's no substitute for the race secretaries
like you still have to do that job well to
get the people watching.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
In Kentucky we.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
Have I think Keland.
Speaker 4 (11:43):
I think Keenland though was down a little bit. You know,
I think the weather had something to do with it
this year. You know, but when you're racing, even with
the Thoroughbreds, you know, the money in Kentucky, the bonuses
for the Thoroughbreds, I mean are incredible.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Example of a bonus for their Thoroughbreds, Michelle, sorry, an
example of what, you know, what is a typical bonus
for the thorough Breds compared the standard breds.
Speaker 4 (12:10):
For instance, we have a we rased just one. You know,
we were lucky enough with Wesley Ward to raise one
of our Chancelot Thoroughbread's starter two year old's starter. We
didn't expect to start so soon. And I think they
went into it was a ninety thousand dollars race for
ninety Unfortunately she was New York Bread. But the purse
(12:35):
she won and the purse what I think it was
like thirty five thousand supposed to ninety because she wasn't
Kentucky Bread. And so that just shows you like the
money that's there. So yeah, I mean usually we have
you know, we're strategic. Chancelot stands right behind Bramble Park
in for sale. But it's it's kind of crazy, you know,
(12:57):
the money and the bonus programs that are set in
you know, New York, the same thing, but we're talking
about Kentucky. So when you start to look at it,
I mean, there's a lot of money there and I
don't think they can spend it all.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
I don't know if Steve is back, but this is
for both Sean and Michelle. Do you think that they've
hit the ceiling in Kentucky or do you see more
growth coming.
Speaker 5 (13:20):
You? Yeah, so the ceiling, the ceiling is there because
there is a cap, like there's what they're calling a
soft cap.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
It's a little.
Speaker 5 (13:29):
Confusing, but they call it a soft cap on the
redevelopment fund. So essentially, once the pre development fund receives
a certain amount of money, then the percentage of the
cut lessons for at the additional moneys. So there is
a bit of a plateau, and it can't just keep
growing exponentially, So like if people aren't really in tune
(13:52):
to it, the growth that they've seen these last two
three years out of Kentucky, you can't expect that every year,
but there's definitely room for some growth. I think the
biggest piece is that, like competitively, these slot machines are
very attractive here to the public because we don't have
anything else. There are no table games, there are no
(14:12):
online games. You know, there is sports betting and horse betting,
but there's no competitive product yet for those games. Eventually
that will come and that could potentially decrease things. But
I think there's a good run, like a foreseeable future,
like ten fifteen year run to this. Because Kentucky is
behind like a lot of the rest of the country,
especially in the Northeast that has kind of had all
(14:35):
of this for a long time and has been through
You can kind of look to like other states and see, Okay,
how long do the slots have before other stuff comes in.
And so because the horse industry has so many lobbyists,
it is so connected politically, I think you'll see protection
for the slot machines and the money they produce for
(14:57):
the races. So yeah, like I think short answer or
it's a long, raimbling answer, but it's your answer is
like I think there's a good foreseeable future run to this.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
The other thing that the other thing that is probably
the most important is there is no casino companies that
own own any of this.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
They're all owned all the all the racetracks.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
Like every state has casinos or something usually except New
Jersey attached to it. The difference in Kentucky is there
is no MGM Grand there is no Heras. It's all
all the tracks and everything is owned. All the machines
and everything are owned by the tracks. So there's one
less entity that we have to worry about trying to
(15:43):
stop us. Basically, the casino company in Kentucky is Richell Downs,
who owns oat Growth. So that is a huge help
for us, is the fact that we don't have anybody.
We don't have to worry about a casino company saying okay,
we're tired of the horses, let's lobby and try.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
To get the legislature to change the rules.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
That's probably that's probably one of the biggest advantages we have.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Steve Freddy here, do you think other states could copy
what Kentucky's doing?
Speaker 3 (16:15):
Well, I think the Metalands has tried, or in the
process of maybe or whatever's trying to get these machines
at the Metalalands. You know, before we talked about wanting
to when all this was happening, there was a lot
of people saying, well, we need to have casinos in
Kentucky and we'll put them at the racetracks. But once
that started talking or whatever, Joe Costa did an excellent
(16:39):
job and making us all realize that we don't want casinos.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
What we want is these machines so.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
That you didn't have the competition from the table games
and everything like that, because a lot of times you
don't get the share of that I mean more or
let's just get the share. I think in Pennsylvania we
just get the machines, not at table games.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
See let me see we're up here for one second.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
When we say machines, were talking about the historical horse
racing slots.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
Correct, Yes, that's correct, that's correct.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Bring around, okay, And so the meadowlands might be looking
to do that is would that passed the state legislation
and stuff?
Speaker 3 (17:23):
Well, who knows, you know that goes or whatever. Usually
the darkest the darkest day is when you finally uh,
you know, Ohio looked like it was dead and then
Basics came in and said, you know, we're going to
put the machines with the racebacks or whatever. And then
the rejuvenated the New York or Ohio. So you know,
(17:43):
you never say never, but you know it's something that
needs to be looked at.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
You know.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
Obviously their problem is they've got they've got tremendous competition
or problem with Atlantic City once you get casinos there.
Really that's what happened in Illinois. But the riverboats got
there before the racetracks and then they were able to
keep it away from the racetrack. So we got lucky
in New York and Pennsylvania. Now in Kentucky and Ohio.
(18:10):
Ohio had them. But KA six was good enough to
help us. Anyway, I got a run.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Let me get this fall out.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
But Steve, Steve was delivering a pole at this particular time,
in case anyone didn't know.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
That's Steve. Good luck.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
Now, Sean and Michelle, do you think that in the
future we could possibly see the Hamiltonian racing in the
Red Mile?
Speaker 4 (18:40):
Hmm, good question.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
The reason the reason I asked.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
That question, I'll be real queer on it is, you know,
the rumor out there is that you know, the meadow
Lands will be closing if they don't get a casino in,
you know, by twenty seven, so.
Speaker 4 (19:00):
And so I aproach personally, I would love to see
the Hamiltonian one year at the Red Mile. I think
it's a great track. I think there's no better venue.
I love it in the fall. I'm not sure that
we're going to see that happen. I don't I don't know. Sean,
what do you think.
Speaker 5 (19:19):
Ye hurt the rumor too, Freddie, I don't know. I
think it completely depends on Jeff Grau there and and
what he wants to do, And none of us know
kind of exactly where where things are headed with some
of the stuff the news that comes out of the Metalalands.
But the Metalans is so important to our sport by
(19:39):
all means, I mean, we need that place to be successful.
So let's hope honestly that it doesn't have to move
anytime soon. We need that place strong and we need, uh,
we need that ownership group to be doing well at
the Red Mile.
Speaker 4 (19:59):
Yeah, I was just gonna say that I did hear
that rumor, and I was hoping, you know, maybe the
Breeder's Crown could shuffle around a little bit more so
than you know, the Hambletonian is.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
A sure thing.
Speaker 4 (20:10):
You know, they do a great job with it, and
it's a big weekend, and you know that's coupled with
just such a big stakes weekend in the Kindergarten and
all of the good races at the Metal Lands the
Metal Lands pace before that, so you know, you got
to spread the wealth a little bit. Also, I don't
see Jeff wanting it to leave the Metal Lands anytime
soon for sure.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Yeah. Well, let's talk about the Breeder's Crown a little bit.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Do you think if let's show we had the Breeder's
Crown at the Red Mile, could we draw a crowd
of at least fifty thousands?
Speaker 5 (20:44):
No, short answers, No, Unfortunately, I would love to think
that we could. But in these modern times, and like
Michelle deserves a lot of credit. You partnered with the
Red Mile. Probert Farns did the Last Fall to do
like a Sunday Night series and they roll off the
Red carpet for folks, you know, concerts and gains entertainment,
(21:05):
all kinds of stuff for the families, and they drew
like not really nice crowds for us down here, but
just in modern times of harness racing, like we're just
we're nowhere close to those those level crowds. Unfortunately, it's
just the reality.
Speaker 4 (21:21):
I don't think the Red Mile can handle that amount
of people anyway. The infrastructure is just not set up
for that. And we tried everything, you know, we had
live entertainment in there, and you know, I think that
that's just something that you know, that type of a
crowd would be. I just I don't see it happening.
And it's hard enough to get people to even realize
(21:42):
the Red Miles there and that there's racing and trying
to collab with Keenland and UK and the Students Section
and stuff like that to try to get groups in.
So there's so much going on and there's so much growth,
but I don't see it in time, you know, I
don't see it rolling out into the Breeders' Crown event.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Okay, yeah, because I'm just looking at like what they
do for the Kentucky Derby over there at Churchill Downs,
over one hundred and fifty thousand people in the poor
and rain.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
I mean that is amazing to me. Andry you got
that one thing going forward.
Speaker 5 (22:22):
Oh god, sorry, oh sorry, Michelle. I mean to talking
over the Derby being a bucket list item for people
has just made it to where like it's it's such
a big tourism event. It's just something where that history
and people want to go to at least one in
their life. Just amazing the amount of people they draw.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Okay, Michelle, you were just going to.
Speaker 5 (22:44):
Say just just that.
Speaker 4 (22:47):
I just think the Derby has become you know, they're
they're infinis, they're drawing stars, they're drawing you know, it's
just a whole different different ballgame. And I think that
you know, typically harness racing it's been like the ugly
step sibling or something like that.
Speaker 5 (23:04):
But it's hard.
Speaker 4 (23:06):
Is we work on it, and as much as we
try to bring awareness to people around us and introduce
harness racing, I'm just I'm still not sure that we're
ever going to get the same pull or the same
crowd draw that they do in the Thoroughbreds.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
I know that, I know that.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
When I lobby in Washington, d C. Well I was
with it was one of the Ohio officers. I don't
remember who. But my first question is that I always
ask are you familiar with harness racing? And pretty much
everyone says no, no, no, Then I have to explain
what harness racing is. But on this one occasion the
person said, oh, yes, I used to work at the
(23:44):
Red Mile, and I thought that was funny as hell.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
But Bob, now you've been pretty quiet. Did you have
anything to add? I've just been listening. I think it's wonderful.
Speaker 5 (23:59):
Well the program has developed into so no, I have
nothing better.
Speaker 4 (24:05):
I think this year, I think everything is a little
bit of growing pains, you know. I think you have
Emily Gaskin now that you know, transferred over from Indiana,
and she's been doing a great job and working with
the ownership and Joe and bringing new things and like
I said, the entertainment where we've tried to make Sunday
nights for the stakes night just hey, you know, you're
(24:27):
not racing in Keenland, and then when you are, there's
nothing on Sunday evenings, so come on over. So Gabe
did a great job last year. Sad to see him go,
But I think Kentucky is going to catch on a
little bit. I think with Bramble you're going to get
more more of the trainers in there. I mean, if
you could have horses in overnights, that's just going to
(24:48):
help overall draw more people in. So I do think
it's on the up and coming. I just I'm not
sure that we're going to ever be Keenland or Churchill Downs,
so we'll see.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Okay with that, I'm going to close the show out Michelle,
Sean and Steve who's gone. Now, thank you guys so
much for joining us today, for having me. That's our pleasure.
That's a wrap for this week's broadcast. Thanks for listening,
and please don't forget to join us again next week
Speaker 2 (25:19):
The Hunt Is Racing Alumni Show
Welcome to the Harness Racing Alumni Show, brought to you
by Competitive Markets Action. I'm Freddie Hudson and I'm here
today with Blob.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Marx THEES Racing Alumni Show.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Joining us this week on our special show discussing the
successful standard bread breeding and racing program in the state
of Kentucky, we have from Hunterton Farms, Steve Stewart, from
Crawford Farms, Michelle Crawford, and from Diamond Creek Farms, Sean LECGANI, Steve,
Michelle and Sean Welcome to the Harness Racing Alumni Show.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Hello.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Hey, Okay, now, guys, I want this to be like
an open conversation, so jump in anytime that you want,
but also, you know, just say who you are when
you talk.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Steve, I'm going to start with you. Why has Kentucky.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Emerged as the best place to be breeding and racing
standard breds?
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Well, we used to not be able to say that,
but I think we're heading in that direction for sure,
if we're not already there. Uh, it pretty much started.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
I don't know how many.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
It's always more years than you than you remember, but
it was when they passed the law in Kentucky for
instant racing machines, and they had got it from I
think Oaklawn or whatever, and they were able to uh
uh copycat damn. And then there was a really big
(01:32):
court battle for a while. The something Foundation or whatever,
the basically a church group had said that it was illegal,
that it was not you know, that the racing could
not use slot machine slash instant racing machines or whatever.
(01:52):
And then they do look like slot machines or whatever.
But anyways, and then they finally settled it about two
years ago or whatever. And then and since then it's
really exploded. The Red Mile did not do hardly any
advertising waiting for waiting for it to waiting for it
(02:12):
to uh get settled. But since then or whatever, it's
generating an incredible amount of money and for the for
the program and and and we've done a very very
good job of we've done a very very good job
of uh I think, uh distributing the money. There is
no breeders awards, so all the money goes to UH
(02:35):
purses and so uh consequently, you know, I think our
programs between twenty and twenty five million dollars. But the
main thing we tried to do is to make sure
that and I think that's what really helps is it's
a red Mile. There's several there's there's several uh getter
back up, there's several tiers or whatever. We have three
(02:58):
tiers plus thet which is non winners of like two
races or whatever that so there's lots of different levels
that you can race for at the Red Mile. And
then we've got the other two tracks. So they've built
two tracks that are south of in the south of
the state, and they are generating a lot of money
(03:24):
pretty much because of Tennessee has no casinos, are no
gambling there, so they strategically put them along the state.
One is north of Knoxville and the other one is
north of Nashville, and they generate an incredible amount of money.
I mean, just to give you an idea. I haven't
looked this year, but last year I looked on June tenth,
(03:47):
the Oak Grove had bet one point six billion. That's
what the b one point six billion in handle for
the machines at that at the track north of Nashville,
which equates at that time it was five months and
ten days, which equals I think ten million dollars a day,
(04:11):
which is really incredible.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
So that's pretty much the reason.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Okay, Michelle, what encouraged you to move part of your
reading operation to Kentucky? And how do you find Kentucky
different from New York?
Speaker 4 (04:25):
Good question. We kind of, I think we're a little
bit ahead of it. We were starting to see the trend,
you know, and the money that was coming into Kentucky,
and you know, we thought at that time it would
be good just to have you know, some resident mayors.
And we're not in the stallion business, you know, like
Diamond Creek, but obviously with the stallion you know, you
get the bonus program and then if you have your
(04:48):
you know, your mayor's sitting there for one hundred and
eighty days, you can go back and forth. But you know,
we are a very large breeder, as you know in
New York. So we started to look at the program
and starting to see the dribbles of you know what,
the duly eligible yearlings we're selling for, and we thought, hey,
(05:08):
you know, maybe we'll just get a plot of land
and we'll just put some horses there and do residency
and we can make up you know, some of this
income you know for the farm in how we sell
the yearlings. But the money just kept getting better and better,
and I mean, to be honest, it kind of balloon.
We ended up buying a farm and it's become more
of a full geared operation start to finish, and to
(05:32):
have resident mayors and mares that are shipping back and forth.
I mean, you have a five day window. You know,
you're you've got to be very precise, so sometimes the
math doesn't work out, but it's very I mean I've
seen in the P and L alone when you can
show up in Lexington and say, hey, I have duly eligible.
I mean there's a premium for that, and buyers will
(05:54):
buy something that they can race in New York and Kentucky.
For whatever reason, it doesn't get around New York or
we've you know, been angled to schedule a little bit
so that they can actually race in all of the
different programs. I mean, there are some conflicts and there's
some work to be had with that, but you know,
you now start in you have four year old programs
(06:14):
in Kentucky. You know, the bonus programs by themselves are
worth it all day long. And you have Oak Grove
and then you go right to the Red Mile and
you have all of the different series, and then you
have Cumberland late closers, and you know the late races
for the stakes and at the end of the year.
So I don't see how you don't consider it. I
think you're at a loss if you're a farm and
(06:35):
you don't have either duly eligible or a farm in Kentucky.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Okay, Sean, can you tell us a little bit more
about the stallion incentives and the dual at dual eligibility?
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Sure?
Speaker 5 (06:50):
Ready, So it's it's it takes a minute to explain.
Sometimes we're trying to work on how to shorten it
so you can really understand it really easily. But essentially,
if you breed to a stallion that's based in Kentucky
and the mayor is also a resident of Kentucky for
six months in the year that she's bred, well, then
(07:10):
that foal, that resulting foal will receive fifty percent person
bonus on any money earned in Kentucky Sire States any
of the breed development races, all divisions, all levels, including
the fairs at all three tracks in Kentucky. So last
year Luna love Good was kind of the big winner
(07:30):
of Kentucky. I think she made the most for this
eligible bonus program because she's by the stallion chimpanzee that
we stand in Kentucky. And so those owners received over
sixty thousand dollars in money. I don't even know if
they were expecting at the end of the year, which
was fifty persmonus on the money she had earned in
those races.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
Okay, now this question is pretty much for everyone. What
is Kentucky doing to prepare for the onslaughter of people
meeting train and other breeders and owners all moving to Kentucky.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Steve, we'll start with you.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
Well, well, the one major thing was that the Red
Model is not open for winter training, and so there
was a great lack of stalls and places for trainers
to to train.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
And they were able to.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
Some entrepreneurial guys from Versales. Educated people call it Versailles,
but US Kentucky people call it Versales Is, which is
about fifteen miles from or so whatever from Lexington and
probably about two miles from Crawford Farms, right down past
the airport or whatever. They're building a training center.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
And I think.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
They didn't put that in for me, Steve, that he
didn't get that into.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
For me, well, just getting the truth out anyway.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
But anyway, I need to fold this mare. But I'm
going to come right back to you guys. Do you
all talk.
Speaker 5 (09:07):
It's mostly closest to Michelle, the Hybrandle Park property, and
it's on pains Mill Road. It's probably only three minutes
down the road from Crawford Farms, and it's probably only
twenty minutes twenty five minutes of traffic from the Red Mile.
You know, I know they'd hoped to have it done
in the spring. We had a terrible winter. But I
know they're moving a ton of dirt, putting up barns
(09:28):
as fast as they can, trying to have it ready
as soon as they can. I believe they have a
fair date approved to have fair Race in there in
August and then as far as I know, as many
stalls as they can build. There are trainers that are
ready to move horses in, so the demand is there.
So I would imagine you're going to see a big
(09:48):
Midwest migration of trainers moving their operations, at least part
of them this way.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Hey, hey, Sean, Now the handles are everything is up
and content right now. The Kentucky Derby had three hundred
and forty million viewers watch it this year. That's a
record from like nineteen eighty nine. And I was just
told that Oak Grove the handle is up of twenty
four percent. Do you see the handles increasing in Kentucky
(10:16):
now that everything's starting to move and focus.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
There thoroughbred wise?
Speaker 5 (10:22):
I think on the biggest days, yes, the average days
in Kentucky yes as well, because the field sizes have
been so good with all the HHR funds and you know,
we have maiden races go for up to one hundred
and twenty thousand dollars, and everybody in the country wants
to raise here what we in the standardbred world, like
Oak grows success here recently, Kidos to them is out
(10:46):
of creativity and good. I think it's good, good card planning.
I don't know ifho many noticed, but they ran like
four or they raised like four or five eight races
the other day on a day where they had four
year old Kentucky our Stakes racist and they were fascinating.
I mean, you had it's it's the track isn't set
up perfect for five eighths, like like it is the
(11:08):
metalands necessarily, but you had two and three wide all
the way around. I mean, some really exciting racing, and
I'm sure that's part of why they're handles doing better.
You know, all the tracks need to continue to be
creative with their with their conditions and the race planning
just to put out a competitive product. We have all
this money, all the stakes development money or breed development
(11:30):
money available, but it's no substitute for the race secretaries
like you still have to do that job well to
get the people watching.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
In Kentucky we.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
Have I think Keland.
Speaker 4 (11:43):
I think Keenland though was down a little bit. You know,
I think the weather had something to do with it
this year. You know, but when you're racing, even with
the Thoroughbreds, you know, the money in Kentucky, the bonuses
for the Thoroughbreds, I mean are incredible.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Example of a bonus for their Thoroughbreds, Michelle, sorry, an
example of what, you know, what is a typical bonus
for the thorough Breds compared the standard breds.
Speaker 4 (12:10):
For instance, we have a we rased just one. You know,
we were lucky enough with Wesley Ward to raise one
of our Chancelot Thoroughbread's starter two year old's starter. We
didn't expect to start so soon. And I think they
went into it was a ninety thousand dollars race for
ninety Unfortunately she was New York Bread. But the purse
(12:35):
she won and the purse what I think it was
like thirty five thousand supposed to ninety because she wasn't
Kentucky Bread. And so that just shows you like the
money that's there. So yeah, I mean usually we have
you know, we're strategic. Chancelot stands right behind Bramble Park
in for sale. But it's it's kind of crazy, you know,
(12:57):
the money and the bonus programs that are set in
you know, New York, the same thing, but we're talking
about Kentucky. So when you start to look at it,
I mean, there's a lot of money there and I
don't think they can spend it all.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
I don't know if Steve is back, but this is
for both Sean and Michelle. Do you think that they've
hit the ceiling in Kentucky or do you see more
growth coming.
Speaker 5 (13:20):
You? Yeah, so the ceiling, the ceiling is there because
there is a cap, like there's what they're calling a
soft cap.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
It's a little.
Speaker 5 (13:29):
Confusing, but they call it a soft cap on the
redevelopment fund. So essentially, once the pre development fund receives
a certain amount of money, then the percentage of the
cut lessons for at the additional moneys. So there is
a bit of a plateau, and it can't just keep
growing exponentially, So like if people aren't really in tune
(13:52):
to it, the growth that they've seen these last two
three years out of Kentucky, you can't expect that every year,
but there's definitely room for some growth. I think the
biggest piece is that, like competitively, these slot machines are
very attractive here to the public because we don't have
anything else. There are no table games, there are no
(14:12):
online games. You know, there is sports betting and horse betting,
but there's no competitive product yet for those games. Eventually
that will come and that could potentially decrease things. But
I think there's a good run, like a foreseeable future,
like ten fifteen year run to this. Because Kentucky is
behind like a lot of the rest of the country,
especially in the Northeast that has kind of had all
(14:35):
of this for a long time and has been through
You can kind of look to like other states and see, Okay,
how long do the slots have before other stuff comes in.
And so because the horse industry has so many lobbyists,
it is so connected politically, I think you'll see protection
for the slot machines and the money they produce for
(14:57):
the races. So yeah, like I think short answer or
it's a long, raimbling answer, but it's your answer is
like I think there's a good foreseeable future run to this.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
The other thing that the other thing that is probably
the most important is there is no casino companies that
own own any of this.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
They're all owned all the all the racetracks.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
Like every state has casinos or something usually except New
Jersey attached to it. The difference in Kentucky is there
is no MGM Grand there is no Heras. It's all
all the tracks and everything is owned. All the machines
and everything are owned by the tracks. So there's one
less entity that we have to worry about trying to
(15:43):
stop us. Basically, the casino company in Kentucky is Richell Downs,
who owns oat Growth. So that is a huge help
for us, is the fact that we don't have anybody.
We don't have to worry about a casino company saying okay,
we're tired of the horses, let's lobby and try.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
To get the legislature to change the rules.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
That's probably that's probably one of the biggest advantages we have.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Steve Freddy here, do you think other states could copy
what Kentucky's doing?
Speaker 3 (16:15):
Well, I think the Metalands has tried, or in the
process of maybe or whatever's trying to get these machines
at the Metalalands. You know, before we talked about wanting
to when all this was happening, there was a lot
of people saying, well, we need to have casinos in
Kentucky and we'll put them at the racetracks. But once
that started talking or whatever, Joe Costa did an excellent
(16:39):
job and making us all realize that we don't want casinos.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
What we want is these machines so.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
That you didn't have the competition from the table games
and everything like that, because a lot of times you
don't get the share of that I mean more or
let's just get the share. I think in Pennsylvania we
just get the machines, not at table games.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
See let me see we're up here for one second.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
When we say machines, were talking about the historical horse
racing slots.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
Correct, Yes, that's correct, that's correct.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Bring around, okay, And so the meadowlands might be looking
to do that is would that passed the state legislation
and stuff?
Speaker 3 (17:23):
Well, who knows, you know that goes or whatever. Usually
the darkest the darkest day is when you finally uh,
you know, Ohio looked like it was dead and then
Basics came in and said, you know, we're going to
put the machines with the racebacks or whatever. And then
the rejuvenated the New York or Ohio. So you know,
(17:43):
you never say never, but you know it's something that
needs to be looked at.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
You know.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
Obviously their problem is they've got they've got tremendous competition
or problem with Atlantic City once you get casinos there.
Really that's what happened in Illinois. But the riverboats got
there before the racetracks and then they were able to
keep it away from the racetrack. So we got lucky
in New York and Pennsylvania. Now in Kentucky and Ohio.
(18:10):
Ohio had them. But KA six was good enough to
help us. Anyway, I got a run.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Let me get this fall out.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
But Steve, Steve was delivering a pole at this particular time,
in case anyone didn't know.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
That's Steve. Good luck.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
Now, Sean and Michelle, do you think that in the
future we could possibly see the Hamiltonian racing in the
Red Mile?
Speaker 4 (18:40):
Hmm, good question.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
The reason the reason I asked.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
That question, I'll be real queer on it is, you know,
the rumor out there is that you know, the meadow
Lands will be closing if they don't get a casino in,
you know, by twenty seven, so.
Speaker 4 (19:00):
And so I aproach personally, I would love to see
the Hamiltonian one year at the Red Mile. I think
it's a great track. I think there's no better venue.
I love it in the fall. I'm not sure that
we're going to see that happen. I don't I don't know. Sean,
what do you think.
Speaker 5 (19:19):
Ye hurt the rumor too, Freddie, I don't know. I
think it completely depends on Jeff Grau there and and
what he wants to do, And none of us know
kind of exactly where where things are headed with some
of the stuff the news that comes out of the Metalalands.
But the Metalans is so important to our sport by
(19:39):
all means, I mean, we need that place to be successful.
So let's hope honestly that it doesn't have to move
anytime soon. We need that place strong and we need, uh,
we need that ownership group to be doing well at
the Red Mile.
Speaker 4 (19:59):
Yeah, I was just gonna say that I did hear
that rumor, and I was hoping, you know, maybe the
Breeder's Crown could shuffle around a little bit more so
than you know, the Hambletonian is.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
A sure thing.
Speaker 4 (20:10):
You know, they do a great job with it, and
it's a big weekend, and you know that's coupled with
just such a big stakes weekend in the Kindergarten and
all of the good races at the Metal Lands the
Metal Lands pace before that, so you know, you got
to spread the wealth a little bit. Also, I don't
see Jeff wanting it to leave the Metal Lands anytime
soon for sure.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Yeah. Well, let's talk about the Breeder's Crown a little bit.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Do you think if let's show we had the Breeder's
Crown at the Red Mile, could we draw a crowd
of at least fifty thousands?
Speaker 5 (20:44):
No, short answers, No, Unfortunately, I would love to think
that we could. But in these modern times, and like
Michelle deserves a lot of credit. You partnered with the
Red Mile. Probert Farns did the Last Fall to do
like a Sunday Night series and they roll off the
Red carpet for folks, you know, concerts and gains entertainment,
(21:05):
all kinds of stuff for the families, and they drew
like not really nice crowds for us down here, but
just in modern times of harness racing, like we're just
we're nowhere close to those those level crowds. Unfortunately, it's
just the reality.
Speaker 4 (21:21):
I don't think the Red Mile can handle that amount
of people anyway. The infrastructure is just not set up
for that. And we tried everything, you know, we had
live entertainment in there, and you know, I think that
that's just something that you know, that type of a
crowd would be. I just I don't see it happening.
And it's hard enough to get people to even realize
(21:42):
the Red Miles there and that there's racing and trying
to collab with Keenland and UK and the Students Section
and stuff like that to try to get groups in.
So there's so much going on and there's so much growth,
but I don't see it in time, you know, I
don't see it rolling out into the Breeders' Crown event.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Okay, yeah, because I'm just looking at like what they
do for the Kentucky Derby over there at Churchill Downs,
over one hundred and fifty thousand people in the poor
and rain.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
I mean that is amazing to me. Andry you got
that one thing going forward.
Speaker 5 (22:22):
Oh god, sorry, oh sorry, Michelle. I mean to talking
over the Derby being a bucket list item for people
has just made it to where like it's it's such
a big tourism event. It's just something where that history
and people want to go to at least one in
their life. Just amazing the amount of people they draw.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Okay, Michelle, you were just going to.
Speaker 5 (22:44):
Say just just that.
Speaker 4 (22:47):
I just think the Derby has become you know, they're
they're infinis, they're drawing stars, they're drawing you know, it's
just a whole different different ballgame. And I think that
you know, typically harness racing it's been like the ugly
step sibling or something like that.
Speaker 5 (23:04):
But it's hard.
Speaker 4 (23:06):
Is we work on it, and as much as we
try to bring awareness to people around us and introduce
harness racing, I'm just I'm still not sure that we're
ever going to get the same pull or the same
crowd draw that they do in the Thoroughbreds.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
I know that, I know that.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
When I lobby in Washington, d C. Well I was
with it was one of the Ohio officers. I don't
remember who. But my first question is that I always
ask are you familiar with harness racing? And pretty much
everyone says no, no, no, Then I have to explain
what harness racing is. But on this one occasion the
person said, oh, yes, I used to work at the
(23:44):
Red Mile, and I thought that was funny as hell.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
But Bob, now you've been pretty quiet. Did you have
anything to add? I've just been listening. I think it's wonderful.
Speaker 5 (23:59):
Well the program has developed into so no, I have
nothing better.
Speaker 4 (24:05):
I think this year, I think everything is a little
bit of growing pains, you know. I think you have
Emily Gaskin now that you know, transferred over from Indiana,
and she's been doing a great job and working with
the ownership and Joe and bringing new things and like
I said, the entertainment where we've tried to make Sunday
nights for the stakes night just hey, you know, you're
(24:27):
not racing in Keenland, and then when you are, there's
nothing on Sunday evenings, so come on over. So Gabe
did a great job last year. Sad to see him go,
But I think Kentucky is going to catch on a
little bit. I think with Bramble you're going to get
more more of the trainers in there. I mean, if
you could have horses in overnights, that's just going to
(24:48):
help overall draw more people in. So I do think
it's on the up and coming. I just I'm not
sure that we're going to ever be Keenland or Churchill Downs,
so we'll see.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Okay with that, I'm going to close the show out Michelle,
Sean and Steve who's gone. Now, thank you guys so
much for joining us today, for having me. That's our pleasure.
That's a wrap for this week's broadcast. Thanks for listening,
and please don't forget to join us again next week
Speaker 2 (25:19):
The Hunt Is Racing Alumni Show
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