April 19, 2023 • 39 mins
The new movie "Air" does the unthinkable by Hollywood standards. We skewer "Saturday Night Live" for morphing into a weekly TED Talk and chat with "Feminine Chaos" co-host Kat Rosenfield about how she defies the raging Culture War battles.
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(00:04):
Welcome to the Hollywood and Total Podcast. Entertainment news and reviews without the book.
Hollywood Narrative, Free speech, freeexpression. Now that's entertainment, and
here's your host, award winning filmcritic Persian Total. This week on the
(00:28):
Hollywood and Total Podcast, we explorehow a new movie reveals just how far
Nike has sunk since the Reagan era. We mocked Saturday Night Live for turning
a comedy institution into a Ted talk, and we talk with journalist, author,
and podcaster Kate Rosenfield. She's partof the Feminine Chaos podcast team and
someone who doesn't see pop culture througha tribal lens. That is refreshing.
(00:52):
The recent Ben Affleck drama Air isa not so minor miracle. The film
follows the Nike executive who helped recruita young Mike Jordan to the Sneaker family.
Now that sounds like a no brainer, right, But back then,
Michael Jordan was a phenomen who hadn'tstepped onto our NBA court yet. He
was untested. Certainly seemed like ashort thing, but you never know.
(01:15):
But Nike wasn't Nike at the time. This is the eighties and Adidas in
converse with those companies that really ruledthe ruse when it came to NBA Superstars.
So an executive at Nike played byMatt Damon said, we're going to
change that. We're going to throweverything we have in Michael Jordan and hoping
that he'll sign with them. Now, you can't blame the executive, but
(01:37):
again, we didn't know who MichaelJordan would become greatest player of his era
for sure. Back then he wasjust had all that potential. We didn't
know what was going to happen next. Here's a sneak peek at the trailer.
You would have to have a prettycompelling pitch. I can tell him
the one thing the other companies can'tcompete with our basketball division isn't terrible.
(01:59):
I do not love it. Thisis when you come up with a brilliant
idea that no one else can see. Let's hear it. I got it.
I found him, who's at Jesuscan't afford it. I'm willing to
bet my career on one guy.My name is Sonny mccarro. I'm with
Nikey. Do you typically make ita Habit has shown up at people's front
(02:21):
doors. An announced I don't liketo take no for an answer. Oh
man, we're going. As itturns out, Air is a very good
movie, maybe my favorite of theyear so far. It's funny, it's
motivational, but that's not the miraclepart that I referred to earlier. Air
is a love letter to capitalism andthe meritocracy of sports, and it's as
(02:44):
woke free as a Dave Chappelle comedyspecial that matters. So far, so
good, right. The film's timingis a little bit I guess you could
say problematic for the Nike brand.Let's start with Colin Kaepernick. He was,
I mean really good for about fiveminutes in the NFL. Now he's
more famous for a kneeling opposing policebrutality, wearing socks that call cops pigs,
(03:08):
and of course flirting with an NFLreturn, which never seems to happen.
You know the phrase just do it, the classic Nike slogan for Kaepernick,
it's I'll keep collecting checks for beinga professional victim, thank you.
And then, of course this DylanMulvany, the trans TikTok star, has
a Nike deal too, tied tosports bras. I'll say no more about
(03:30):
that Mulvani isn't a superstar nor atop tier athlete, yet both Kaepernick and
Mulvany are on Team Nike today.Nike, in Kaepernick several years ago,
ignored all that divisive rhetoric, allthose stages, those protests, and of
course even raged against his own adoptiveparents, and Nike said, ah,
(03:52):
I don't see anything Nikes. Andagain, Mulvani is a TikTok star.
I think they're a dime a dozen. Back in the eighties, merit really
mattered to Nike. They wanted thebest of the best. They wanted their
sneakers to be the best of thebest, and they risked a lot to
sign the best of the best atthe time, or the person they thought
could hold that title. It's allcaptured in Air again, a wonderful movie.
(04:15):
But now for Nike, it's allabout identity politics. Corporations are enamored
with the phrase, so this isn'tjust about Nike. But of course,
with the movie, Nike's in theconversation they're watching Air to me reminds us
how times have changed since the eightiesand how that Nike brand no longer stands
(04:36):
for excellence. You're listening to mydad's podcast. He cried like a baby
watching Snoopy Come Home. Saturday NightLive is dead. That's probably the laziest,
hackiest headline you've seen over the years, and I probably wrote it a
timer two myself. It's hard toresist it, and of course the show's
(04:57):
death is greatly exaggerated creatively speaking.Yeah, it's time to read it.
It's last rites. It shows likeThe Walking Dead zombies. It should stop,
but it won't. You need proof, or maybe more proof if you've
seen recent episodes. Here's SNL's newnon binary cast member, Molly Kearney taking
the Goopeta task for blocking irreversible surgeryfor kids who think they're trans. I'm
(05:23):
trying to hung up on my genimalsfor far too long, and I'm starting
to feel like a freaking Republican lawmaker. Hello, that's a transition. So
as of this week, there arenow over fourteen states that have passed bills
restricting healthcare for trans kids. Listento that, Michael, restricting healthcare for
(05:44):
kids. For some reason, there'ssomething about the word trans that makes people
forget the word kids. If youdon't care about trans kids, lives.
It means you don't care about freakingkids lives. I can probably really upset
about that. I am, Andalso my legs are going no that I
(06:05):
might pass off. How long wereyou hanging up there? Longer than I
would have liked? I tried tocall down, but no one could hear
me. You know, at onepoint I heard a crew guy say,
is she gonna die up there?And then another guy was like, you
mean are they going to die upthere? And then they walked away and
(06:27):
dan hell. Which feels a lotlike how trans people are being treated right
now. But don't worry. Wehave a code word for emergencies and it
was trans rights. Good golly,that was the code folking beefy my bad,
but that was so loud. Well, yeah, people need to wake
(06:50):
up. We're making trans kids growup too fast. We should be keeping
them safe and we need to liftthem off. Oh not me now for
this conversation, I'm not going totake sides in the argument and play.
Besides, the show is just gettingsteam. I don't want to get canceled
(07:11):
right away. But that's not eventhe point. This is in comedy.
It's a lecture. It's a onesided screed that happens to take place in
a comedy show. Pretty classic oneat that. Does anybody care? What
about Lord Michaels. His entire careeris based on SNL and its legacy.
He created this show. He picksthe stars. Boy, what a track
(07:34):
record there? All the superstars incomedy, most of them came from Saturday
Night Live. Doesn't he care abouthis product or the legacy? I guess
not. And if you think we'rebeing unfair here or being too partisan,
well check this out. Here's comedianRyan Long. He's a Canadian, he's
moved to America. He is apolitical certainly anti awoke, but here he's
(07:56):
mocking conservatives for boycotting bud Light overthe Dylan Old Danny sponsorship deal. What's
up, everybody? Welcome back tothe Boyscast. Okay, Patriots, I'm
apologized for something that I'll have todo right now. But Danny will be
no longer with the Boys Cast asI found a bud Light in the fridge.
Apparently he's been drinking this even thoughhe knows the Boys cast his boycotting
the product. Wait, why areyou wearing potatoes because we're boycotting most of
(08:18):
the clothing companies, and I've torchedthe clothes. As you know. Nike
was on the list which I've givenyou, which I guess you don't care.
And not to mention, I've beenlooking at your phone and apparently you've
been buying Amazon stock. This issomething that you've been doing. Why are
you going through my phone? Alsowas part of an ETF very sorry Patriots,
an official Boys Cast apology. Iguess Danny doesn't care about this country,
doesn't care about the degenerates which havebeen subverting this country. I mean,
(08:39):
I'm looking at this list right now, Ryan, it's just every company
exactly, NFL, Starbucks, Nordstrom, Curig, Yeah, stopped advertising on
Hannity, Disney, gay stuff,America stuff, Home Deep Bay stuff.
Also no guns, same with Dixand also Chuck Taylor's was on the list,
Drake and the add so chuck himout. I apologize for the trader
that has intermidst people. Now.This clip is obviously poking fun at conservatives.
(09:03):
It's also funny. It's got alot of energy, which is important,
and it's a comedy bit. There'sno lectures here, there's no finger
wagging. You could say it's notfunny. It misses the mark, but
it's a skit, it's a sketch. It does what it's intended to do.
It's making a secondary statement beneath thewhole. Oh, conservatives are going
(09:24):
crazy about the culture wars. Well, you know what progressives are invading nearly
every element of our lives, whichis the laundry list of companies that this
particular sort boycotting, at least fauxbark boycotting. That's smart comedy, working
in multiple layers, appealing to boththe left and the right, seemingly one
side, but maybe just a littlebit on the other as well. No
(09:46):
SNL used to deliver these kind ofbits. Now you got to go to
YouTube. You got to search themout. Go to Rumble, check out
different websites, see different performers whoare trying to bring something new and fresh
and exciting to the public. Endup watching most of them on your smartphone.
But I guess that's just the waythings work in our culture today.
Good for Ryan Long for putting comedyfirst, for searching for the laughs where
(10:09):
they deserve to be found. MaybeLauren Michael's and company take some notes.
I've failed so far, and oneof the biggest goals I had for this
podcast. I really wanted to invitemore left leaning guests onto the show,
(10:33):
not to scream and shout, notto have an old crossfire style debate,
but to talk about movies, freespeech, pop culture and agree to disagree,
sometimes off My wife sa Bernie broSo. I have a little experience
in this area, not a lot, but a little, but that was
part of my goal here this week. I'm taking a small step in that
(10:54):
direction, but I do promise togo further moving forward. This week's guests
is Kat Rosenfield. She's smart,she's thought provoking, and she's certainly not
right of center at all. She'sa co host of Feminine Chaos podcast.
She's also a contributed to Unheard dotcom. If you haven't heard of Unheard
as unheard dot com, it's anexcellent site. I don't know if it's
(11:18):
left or right in the middle.It's just smart commentary that challenges your preconceived
notions. Good stuff. Kat's alsoa novelist. In case I wasn't enough,
her newest book is called You MustRemember This and it's a mystery.
Not a bad resume. Right nowagain, Cat, and I don't see
eye to eye on every issues.But I appreciate her takes on pop culture.
(11:39):
They're smart, they're engaging, andalso it's not tribalized. You can
tell her she's really thought about this. This is her take, take it
or leave it. But she's notgoing to basically subscribe to one party,
one rule, one idea. Listen, we're all guilty of that sometimes I
am too. We cover a lotof ground in this interview, but I
hope you appreciate a conversation that's onand unpredictable. Kat, Thank you for
(12:03):
joining the show. No, Ioften like to start things out with the
origin story, not being bitten bya radioactive spider, but how you became
who you are today? Because I'mgoing to guess as a young adult,
you didn't think I want to bean author and a pundit and a podcaster,
right, I don't know what thatwas in the mix for you in
your early years. So how didyou get where you are? And we
(12:24):
don't have to go through the wholestory, but how did you become an
influencer, a writer? What?I don't know what the best way to
frame you because you wear a lotof hats. Well, so there was
this radioactive spider. I'm actually alittle throne by being referred to as a
as a pundit and an influencer rightmyself as either one of these things.
(12:46):
Those are buzzwords. I just hadto put them out there. If you
have to, if or forgive me, yeah right right, you know you
got to. You gotta get thosewords in so that the algorithm can find
us. I want to I wantto talk about or what your and you
get me, n You'll be verydisappointed. So how did I get to
where I am? I really kindof fell backwards into being a writer.
(13:11):
I did go to college, butnot for anything writing related or writing adjacent.
I was an art major and Frenchmajor, because apparently I thought when
I was going to graduate that Iwas going to become a character and a
Jane Austen all right, well brandedand verageable young lady. And so what
I ended up doing was I movedto New York City and I got a
(13:33):
job as a book publicist, andI thought for about five minutes that that
was going to be my career,and then it turned out that I was
terrible at being a publicist. Thething about being a publicist is that you
have to be a really good liar, which I'm not, and you have
to be really good also at hypingup things that are objectively uninteresting and sometimes
(13:58):
terrible, like everything that comes byyour death. You have to be like,
don't sleep on this. This isgoing to change the world. It's
the most life changing books since thelast time I told you a book was
life changing. So basically what endedup happening was, as I was working
as a publicist, I was incontact with a lot of journalists, and
I eventually started to realize that Idid not want to do what I was
(14:20):
doing. I wanted to do whatthey were doing, and so I attempted
to pivot out of working in PRand into being a freelance writer and a
copywriter. That was going to bemy path, and it might have happened
for me if the economy hadn't impluded. This was two thousand and eight.
So what ended up actually happening wasthat I started freelancing kind of frantically,
(14:45):
just hustling, saying yes to anythingI could do that would pay. And
from there I ended up writing anovel. While I was jobless, I
finished my first novel. I endedup selling that I ended up getting through
I think like media bistro or Craigslist, a freelance gig as a blogger at
(15:07):
MTV that ultimately turned into a positionas a reporter at MTV News, and
slowly, you know, I managedto cobble together a livelihood. So it's
it's not a super interesting. It'sjust an arduous path that involves me just
writing and saying yes to things alot until I ended up here. That's
(15:28):
interesting. I worked at a paperin Pittsburgh, and I feel like a
lot of my fellow journalists ended upleaving journalism for PR, but you made
the opposite switch, so so kindgood for you. We're kind of we
always framed it in a very negativeway, like you're selling your soul or
your you know whatever whatever whoever journalistswould kind of do to kind of get
out of that business. But Ialso can't blame them because it is really
(15:48):
hard, you know, obviously,you weigh in a lot of different issues,
a lot of media issues on unheardin feminine chaos. What issues matter
to you the most these days whenyou're either off mic or or away from
your laptop, what are you thinkingabout? And just for a starter for
me, it's all about free speech. I'm obsessed with it. It really
almost literally keeps me up at night. But what's what's top of mine for
(16:10):
you these days? Also free speech? Yeah, you know, as a
as a person who writes fiction,especially seeing the influence of this sort of
um, I don't know what youwould call it. There's this sort of
conformist impulse that has always existed,of course, but to see it kind
(16:30):
of infiltrate the arts in the waythat it has over the past ten years
or so is alarming to me.I feel like worlds are colliding in a
way that's that's upsetting. In general, I would say that the kind of
through line in the way that Ithink about things in the topics that interest
me is that I'm pretty strongly antiauthoritarian. So, you know, the
(16:52):
things that I care about most inaddition to things like free speech, are
you know, prison reform, justicereform, m you know, getting rid
of like needless red teeth that keepspeople from living the lives that they should
be allowed to live without interference.Gotcha, you waste Recently, you're weight
in on the Scott Adams kurfuffle,and I'd just like to use the word
(17:15):
kurfuffle, So forgive me. Youknow, what he said I don't think
was racist. It was bizarre,It was poorly thought out, and I
think, as you mentioned in arecent Unheard column, he knew what he's
doing. This wasn't a surprise somewhatas smart as he is couldn't be unaware
of the ramifications. But what dowe take away from that? Because it
just seems so odd. It seemedsuch a an unforced error. I didn't
(17:40):
get the goal. I think thatScott Adams is now selling Dilbert through a
locals dot com account, so maybethat was the endgame. But what a
weird way to get there. WhatI mean? I just like like we
to look back in ten or twentyyears at the Scott Adams meltdown and have
something profound to say about it.But what are your thoughts right now?
Oh? I don't think we're goingto be looking back at it in ten
(18:00):
years at all. I think it'sgoing to be lost to history. The
least interesting things that happened in thisvery, very stupid time that we're living
in. Um. Yeah, Ithink I see the Scott Adams thing as
part of a larger phenomenon that's takingmany different forms, but the through line
(18:22):
is that there is this impulse andit's it's coming kind of top down from
all of the places that where cultureis made and where the sort of national
conversation is being set. There's thisimpulse to try to, you know,
make us even more polarized than weare, particularly along racial lines. I
(18:44):
see this in all kinds of places, but you know, especially online,
that there's this desire and I don'tI mean, I have theories as to
why it is, but to keepus at each other's throats, to fracture
us, to you know, tomake us mistrustful of each other. And
on the one hand, you know, in my offline life where I am
(19:04):
friends with normal people who are notin the media and you know, don't
think or talk about any of thesubjects that I write about the daily basis,
you know, it's it's not likethat, it's not succeeding. But
in the places, like you know, in the media and on Twitter,
you know, unfortunately, these areplaces that do have an outsized influence over
(19:26):
you know, the rest of societyat large and how we relate to each
other in that society, I dosee it really gaining a foothold in ways
that I find disturbing. Yeah,I know Twitter isn't real life, but
it's real life adjacent. Is itjust the clicks and the attention where if
you stir things up there's more ofa chance you'll get attention paid to yourself,
(19:48):
and there's an economic incentive there aswell. I mean, is it
that cold and calculated? There's somethingelse you think a foot Yeah, I
mean I think it's that cold andcalculated and also that boring. You know
that you've got a lot of peoplewho you don't Sorry, my dog just
literally farted in there kidding on thecouch next to me. I don't know
if that picked up or not.You know, my mind does usually silent
(20:12):
but deadly. So I you know, a pox on your dog but just
goes I have a better dog doesn'tmean anything but go on. Um.
Yeah, I'm saying before that happened. Sorry, so you know why this
is happening. You know you don'thear this on MPR, by the way,
which is why I appreciate it.Yes, exactly, Yeah, I
(20:33):
was saying it is it is thatboring. I think that you've got people
who basically you know, just wantus to kind of fall into a civil
war of sorts because like, thinkof the clicks, you know, and
that's awful. Yeah, I mean, just imagine if Trump is leading the
civil war, then the clicks gooff off the map. I you know,
(20:56):
one of things you talked about ina recent episode of Feminine Chaos was
banning books and the culture war what'sgoing on in schools today? And it's
funny, I was listening to whatI was agreeing, I was disagreeing.
I was being confronted with ideas thatI don't normally have or which is one
of the reason why I enjoyed thatepisode on your show. From a conservative
point of view, critique critique themovement, I consider myself right leaning conservatives,
(21:21):
so you know, it's it's mea little bit too. But what's
what's the truth? What's the reality? What's the fiction about these banning book
situations? Because when I hear aboutit, it's pornographic books that probably shouldn't
be in a kid's school. Andthen from the other side, it's framed
in a more uh, you know, authoritarian perspective. What's what's in the
middle are What's what am I missing? Oh that's well. I mean,
(21:45):
you know, I'm not a conservative, right, yeah, I mean you're
you're kind of libertarian ish, isit? What's is? You strike me
as someone who doesn't fall easily intolabels either. Yeah, I mean I
was, you know, in thethe nineties, I was like the quintessential
free speech, leading heart liberal.And my values and views have not changed
(22:08):
really much at all, but theground kind of shifted under me, so
that a lot of the stuff thatwas important to a liberal person at the
nineties was like thirty years ago.Now that's expressing, but you know that
this stuff is now, for whateverreason, coded right wing. Yeah.
It's Bill mor syndrome strange, yeah, basically, And you know I've I've
(22:32):
not I'm not fretting about it atthis point, but I just, you
know, I don't want anybody toget the wrong idea, you know,
to be like, what's this ladysaying she's supposed to be conservative? Um,
what is happening with banning books?My take on this, I think
is satisfying to no one. Greatthat's the anti click pape by the way.
Yeah, it's basically that everybody sucks. So my feeling is you have
(22:56):
on the one hand, the rightis engaged in what we think of is
the kind of og book bands whereyou have concerned parents or just kind of
people who are generally prude trying toremove stuff that they find morally objectionable because
it's too sexy, or it's toogay, or it's too violent, you
(23:21):
know, from school curriculums. AndI don't know. I'm of two minds
about it. On the one hand, I would love for people to be
able to access every book ever,for all time. On the other hand,
a classroom is a small place andyou can only fit so many literal,
physical copies of books into it,and so I understand that, you
(23:44):
know, some things need to bethere, needs to be curation, and
that's fine. The thing that Ifind frustrating is that there is a left
wing version of this in the formof weeding that happens in libraries. You
know, you have everyday librarians goingthrough their collections and getting rid of stuff
(24:08):
that they consider offensive or outdated orwhatever, usually on much of the same
grounds that you have you know,school boards or parents petitioning for the removal
of things that they find objectable froma conservative perspective, and this doesn't really
get talked about, you know,this discussion of books being ejected from classrooms
or curricula for moral reasons. Wealways talk about that as though it's exclusively
(24:30):
right coded, and it's not.So That's one thing I think a reasonable
conversation about this needs to address,you know, the kind of basic fact
that there's going to always have tobe curation. You know, there's only
so much based on the shelves,and we need to find a way to
do that as fairly and ideally,as non ideologically as possible. The thing
(24:52):
that really concerns me, though,is that there is a push now and
this I do see coming almost exclusive, excuse me, exclusively from the left,
just because they're the ones who reallyhold the cultural power to do this.
You see this push to edit thecontent itself, you know, to
censor things out the source and toinfluence what is being written by intimidating for
(25:18):
the people who are creating the books, by intimidating artists where they live.
And when you try to talk aboutthis, you get a lot of pushback
from progressives who, you know,it's like, there's nothing to see here,
it's not happening. Also, it'sgood that it's happening. It's a
very frustrating conversation to try to have. And if I can jump in the
American Dirt saga, we don't havetime to dig into it because it's a
(25:41):
it's a massive story. But everyonelistening should go google it, research it,
find out what happened with that author, with that book, with that
story. It's an amazing you know, you just missed this. Gut this
the Delbert situation a while ago,and I get that to a certain degree.
It's in a way it's a bignothing. It's also indicative. But
I think the American Dirt story reallydoes speak to the times. So but
(26:02):
continue that. I want you,I want to get more your thoughts about
American dirt, well just I meanjust about the about the sort of the
push and pull. I think forme, one of my frustrations is I
don't know what to believe. SoI read book banning, book banning,
book banning, and then people inthe right will say, well, the
book in question is a hard point, graphic book about you know, preteens
(26:25):
having sex before they hit eighteen.I'm thinking, yeah, I'm okay with
that not being in my kids school. That's a that's a win for me.
But then you hear maybe whispers ofother things, maybe more a novel
that has inappropriate themes or suggestions orand then I don't you know, that's
where I that's why I get myhair stands on end in a negative way.
So I think, I think partof this, and maybe I'm wrong,
(26:48):
is that I don't know what totrust, you know, And I
think that both sides often will maybeeither exclude certain arguments or not even accept
certain arguments. Yeah, that's verytrue. I mean we live in a
moment now where it's possible to sothoroughly silo yourself into you know, one
kind of very closed information economy thatwe're at this point all kind of working
(27:14):
with different versions of what we thinkthe truth is, Like there's no consensus
truth. And I see this happeningnow, and I see it potentially only
getting more fraught and more like potentas a phenomenon as we get into a
world where like you can basically AIgenerate something that looks real that isn't and
(27:37):
you know, anybody can do this. So I see reality fracturing in a
way that is like very kind ofdystopian and sort of like sci fi matrix
in a way that I'm I'm tryingnot to freak out about. I'm sort
of waiting to see what happens.But I perceive this as being something that's
going to be relevant and be importantmoving forward to how we understand the world
(28:03):
we live in and how we processinformation. I'm just trying to think,
you know, in terms of notknowing what to what to believe or not
knowing how to draw lines. Youmentioned like pornographic books in schools, and
I think for the most part that'sactually kind of a straw man. And
(28:26):
there is this one book and itactually, as a person who still identifies
as being mainly on the left,it frustrates me that this is the hill
that my fellow progressives have decided theywant to die on. It's this book
called Gender Queer. It is agraphic novel, so it is illustrated.
It does contain objectively pornographic depictions ofsomebody wearing a dildo and getting a blowjob.
(28:52):
And it's am I allowed to sayblowjob on your podcast? I don't
know. I think people will getget they thrust of it, no pun
intended. If I beat out aword or two. You just keep keep
on keeping on. I'll worry aboutthat later, all right, Yeah,
we'll just roll with it anyway.So this is this is a graphic novel.
(29:15):
It was originally for adults. Itwas then awarded this Alex Award,
which is a librarian driven or givenaward, that is, it's given to
works of adult fiction that they've determinedhave special interest to young readers ages twelve
(29:36):
to eighteen. And under the auspicesof the Alex Award, you end up
with books that have received it makingtheir way into school libraries, middle and
high school libraries because you know,it's been deemed like relevant in some way
to that audience. This book isI think objectively, like it's really not
something that should be in a school. It's just there's really there's no reason,
(30:00):
you know, like if a kidwants access to this, they can
get it, you know, anyof the millions of other ways that you
can gain access to books. Youknow, there's this question of like what
do we want to sanction kind ofas having in public schools, what we
want to sanction socially as being likeappropriate for children to access in a government
(30:22):
run institution for lack of a betterword. I think that in a normal
situation, people, reasonable people couldlook at this depiction of a person again
wearing a strap on and receiving oralsex and say, yeah, you know,
we do not need this, likethis illustrated pornographic work in the school
(30:48):
library. But because everything has gottenso incredibly politicized and everyone is so dug
in, this is you have,you know, folks basically defending this kind
of senseless inclusion. If we couldget past gender queer and just like dial
it back to talking about you know, how do we draw like some reasonable
(31:11):
lines, and I mean that thatwould be great. I think I think
that would be a productive conversation.I think it would actually be pretty easy
for reasonable people on both sides tosay, yeah, okay, like we
draw the line, for instance,at graphic novels, you know, graphic
depictions of sex, like illustrated depictionsof sex. It's literally, you know,
(31:34):
it's visual pornography. Yeah, maybewe draw the line at oh,
I don't know, at you know, books that contain very very graphic sex
scenes. But I do think thatthere's a difference between something that is like
written erotica or something like flowers inthe attic which I mean, like everybody
(31:55):
read that growing up. I don'tknow if you did. I think in
the one person we did not,but I'm aware of it. Yeah,
yeah, yeah. It was sortof like a nineties right of past.
Like you know, if you were, if you were like an eighties or
nineties teenager, like you read thatbook kind of secretly, you know,
under the cover is because it isvery sexy and allsothmes incest, but it's
a but it's a book. It'sa written, you know, description of
(32:15):
what's happening. And I see thatas different. And I don't know,
maybe that's hypocritical of me, butto me, that's an easy line to
draw. You know, there's adefinitely different. But I think the bigger
issue is that a progressive a willmeaning progressive will dig in their heels because
they fear a slippery slope. Okay, that gets banned, that something else
kept banned. And I think thathappens in the right too. I think
(32:36):
anything anything with any kind of mentionof gun control, it's it's slippery slope
time. And I think there areslopes that are slippery these days, and
I think that's that makes it evenmore complicated. One of the things that
I when I listen to you,when I read you, I feel a
bit challenged at times, which isgood, but it also you strike me
as someone you can label yourself howyou want, but I think you kind
of hover above the ideological frame morethan your average person, which, again
(33:00):
as a compliment, how do youdo that? And I'll give you a
quickie. One thing I do isif a story seems just like the most
reddest of redin meat for meat,for me, as a conservative, I
get skeptical right away. Or whenI listen to people who I like who
are on the right, I tryto poke holes and what they're saying throughout
the show, even though I mostlyagree, and even though I'm enjoying the
(33:22):
show, Well, what do youdo to kind of you know, you
don't want to kind of be partof a team, because I think then
you have the flaws of your team. How do you how do you kind
of ward against that? Um?Well, I think part of this is
just like my natural disposition. I'mnot a politics as team sports person.
I'm much more journalistically inclined and thatI'm more curious about what is true or
(33:51):
about you know, what people think. Then I am hell bent on prescribing
things. I don't actually have alaw of a lot of strong opinions about
what should be or like how weshould do or fix things. Um,
I'm just really curious about why thingsare the way they are and what is
(34:15):
actually happening. I see my myjob as a writer as basically kind of
kicking over rocks and looking at what'sunder there. And you know, sometimes
what's under there is really disgusting,but I want to point at it and
be like, look at that wriggling, weird thing, like what is that?
What does it mean? And howdoes it connect? The kind of
politics is team sports ethos that hasemerged. I think it's really taken hold,
(34:40):
including in journalism, which is notgood for journal that. Yeah,
But I mean, you know,once you start, once you start thinking
of things in those terms like isthis helpful or harmful to my team,
you start turning away from the disgustingthing that's under a rock that is interesting
(35:02):
because it's because it's bad for yourteam to have it like acknowledged that it's
there, if that makes sense.Yeah, And I never want to do
that. And I'm actually I thinkI'm congenitally incapable of doing that, which
has not necessarily been a good thingin my life, but it does keep
me from getting entrenched in some ofthe kind of like sniping, you know,
(35:30):
raw raw stuff that happens when peoplefeel like they need to be activists
rather than truthseekers. Yeah, andyou know, I think you as a
storyteller is a better story often topeel back the curtain and see what led
to this thing that looks so ungainly. So that's that's important as well.
If we're Litchigo Kata want to takea little bit into your new novel,
(35:52):
you must remember this a gothic mysterywith a Knives outspin. I was kind
of curious you've done, you know, young adult novels, a lot of
different kinds of writing. What drewyou to this story? And do you
think you'll did this kind of giveyou like an appetite for these kinds of
stories. So I think I thinkthere's a real hunger out there right now
for mysteries. You know, theKnives Out franchise itself is such a big
hit. Yeah, you know,I've always been drawn to um like thriller
(36:16):
and mystery. I love puzzles andso um you know, a mystery or
a thriller, anything that has like, you know, the kind of twists
in it. It's it's like apuzzle and a story. So what could
be better? UM? I didused to write why I wrote UM like
sort of mystery psychological thriller. WhenI was writing in YAUM, I was
(36:37):
canceled from ya So I don't getto do that anymore, not that I
would necessarily have wanted to stay there. I like writing for adults better of
our It's gonna be for a varietyof reasons. Um, but yeah,
you know, I've always been drawnto um stories like this. I think
for the same reason that I likewhat animates my my fiction writing and what
(36:58):
animates my work as a journalist ora cultural critic. I think it is
very much the same thing. I'mjust curious in what people do to each
other at the extremes, you know, and why they do it, and
murder is rather extreme. Thank youfor doing the Hollywood in Total podcast.
Kat. Of course, please checkout her provocative podcast. She's got a
good one Feminine Chaos, and evenbetter, pick up one of her five
(37:19):
novels. Five. I wrote onebook. I was one and done so
I'm very envious of that. Andof course, the most recent mystery is
you must start. What's that?One is a good start? Yeah?
Yeah, I like to retire ona happy note. But the most recent
mystery, of course, is youmust remember this. The podcast is Feminine
Chaos. Kat. Thank you forjoining the show. Keep up provoking ideas
(37:44):
and interests and readers. And Ithink we need more people like you.
Thanks, thanks, thanks for havingme. All right, there's just enough
time left for one tip, justone. I grew up loving radio,
loved it. Love, can't saylove enough. Just was my life as
a young man. Howard Sterns,Soupy Sales, Rush Limbaugh. Just adore
(38:07):
them all, listen to hours andhours of their conversations. Of course,
today I'm addicted to podcasts. Ihope you are too. But my latest
fix is the Ruthless Variety program.Yes program. Yeah, it's another political
talk show. This one is different, trust me. Show's hosts are very
(38:28):
funny. They love to laugh,and they merge wicked, smart observations about
politics and politicians with those jokes.Now, all you need to know about
the Ruthless podcast is its annual HackMadness Tourney. It just wrapped up you
know, marches just right behind us, and it let voters weigh in on
the Beltway's worst political hacks. I'mnot sure what that means. Well,
(38:49):
I think Don Lemon, Jen Ruben, Taylor, Brens, Joy Read and
others all the hacks all in onecompetition. It is brilliant. So once
you wrapped up this show, givethe gang over at Ruthless a try.
You will not be disappointed. AllRight, before you flee, please consider
giving Hollywood in Toto some love overat iTunes. A five star review would
(39:10):
be spectacular. And if you don'thave time, maybe just go over to
Hollywood intoto dot com. That's mywebsite, my home base, and it's
updated daily with great stories. Seeyou next time.
Welcome to the Hollywood and Total Podcast. Entertainment news and reviews without the book.
Hollywood Narrative, Free speech, freeexpression. Now that's entertainment, and
here's your host, award winning filmcritic Persian Total. This week on the
(00:28):
Hollywood and Total Podcast, we explorehow a new movie reveals just how far
Nike has sunk since the Reagan era. We mocked Saturday Night Live for turning
a comedy institution into a Ted talk, and we talk with journalist, author,
and podcaster Kate Rosenfield. She's partof the Feminine Chaos podcast team and
someone who doesn't see pop culture througha tribal lens. That is refreshing.
(00:52):
The recent Ben Affleck drama Air isa not so minor miracle. The film
follows the Nike executive who helped recruita young Mike Jordan to the Sneaker family.
Now that sounds like a no brainer, right, But back then,
Michael Jordan was a phenomen who hadn'tstepped onto our NBA court yet. He
was untested. Certainly seemed like ashort thing, but you never know.
(01:15):
But Nike wasn't Nike at the time. This is the eighties and Adidas in
converse with those companies that really ruledthe ruse when it came to NBA Superstars.
So an executive at Nike played byMatt Damon said, we're going to
change that. We're going to throweverything we have in Michael Jordan and hoping
that he'll sign with them. Now, you can't blame the executive, but
(01:37):
again, we didn't know who MichaelJordan would become greatest player of his era
for sure. Back then he wasjust had all that potential. We didn't
know what was going to happen next. Here's a sneak peek at the trailer.
You would have to have a prettycompelling pitch. I can tell him
the one thing the other companies can'tcompete with our basketball division isn't terrible.
(01:59):
I do not love it. Thisis when you come up with a brilliant
idea that no one else can see. Let's hear it. I got it.
I found him, who's at Jesuscan't afford it. I'm willing to
bet my career on one guy.My name is Sonny mccarro. I'm with
Nikey. Do you typically make ita Habit has shown up at people's front
(02:21):
doors. An announced I don't liketo take no for an answer. Oh
man, we're going. As itturns out, Air is a very good
movie, maybe my favorite of theyear so far. It's funny, it's
motivational, but that's not the miraclepart that I referred to earlier. Air
is a love letter to capitalism andthe meritocracy of sports, and it's as
(02:44):
woke free as a Dave Chappelle comedyspecial that matters. So far, so
good, right. The film's timingis a little bit I guess you could
say problematic for the Nike brand.Let's start with Colin Kaepernick. He was,
I mean really good for about fiveminutes in the NFL. Now he's
more famous for a kneeling opposing policebrutality, wearing socks that call cops pigs,
(03:08):
and of course flirting with an NFLreturn, which never seems to happen.
You know the phrase just do it, the classic Nike slogan for Kaepernick,
it's I'll keep collecting checks for beinga professional victim, thank you.
And then, of course this DylanMulvany, the trans TikTok star, has
a Nike deal too, tied tosports bras. I'll say no more about
(03:30):
that Mulvani isn't a superstar nor atop tier athlete, yet both Kaepernick and
Mulvany are on Team Nike today.Nike, in Kaepernick several years ago,
ignored all that divisive rhetoric, allthose stages, those protests, and of
course even raged against his own adoptiveparents, and Nike said, ah,
(03:52):
I don't see anything Nikes. Andagain, Mulvani is a TikTok star.
I think they're a dime a dozen. Back in the eighties, merit really
mattered to Nike. They wanted thebest of the best. They wanted their
sneakers to be the best of thebest, and they risked a lot to
sign the best of the best atthe time, or the person they thought
could hold that title. It's allcaptured in Air again, a wonderful movie.
(04:15):
But now for Nike, it's allabout identity politics. Corporations are enamored
with the phrase, so this isn'tjust about Nike. But of course,
with the movie, Nike's in theconversation they're watching Air to me reminds us
how times have changed since the eightiesand how that Nike brand no longer stands
(04:36):
for excellence. You're listening to mydad's podcast. He cried like a baby
watching Snoopy Come Home. Saturday NightLive is dead. That's probably the laziest,
hackiest headline you've seen over the years, and I probably wrote it a
timer two myself. It's hard toresist it, and of course the show's
(04:57):
death is greatly exaggerated creatively speaking.Yeah, it's time to read it.
It's last rites. It shows likeThe Walking Dead zombies. It should stop,
but it won't. You need proof, or maybe more proof if you've
seen recent episodes. Here's SNL's newnon binary cast member, Molly Kearney taking
the Goopeta task for blocking irreversible surgeryfor kids who think they're trans. I'm
(05:23):
trying to hung up on my genimalsfor far too long, and I'm starting
to feel like a freaking Republican lawmaker. Hello, that's a transition. So
as of this week, there arenow over fourteen states that have passed bills
restricting healthcare for trans kids. Listento that, Michael, restricting healthcare for
(05:44):
kids. For some reason, there'ssomething about the word trans that makes people
forget the word kids. If youdon't care about trans kids, lives.
It means you don't care about freakingkids lives. I can probably really upset
about that. I am, Andalso my legs are going no that I
(06:05):
might pass off. How long wereyou hanging up there? Longer than I
would have liked? I tried tocall down, but no one could hear
me. You know, at onepoint I heard a crew guy say,
is she gonna die up there?And then another guy was like, you
mean are they going to die upthere? And then they walked away and
(06:27):
dan hell. Which feels a lotlike how trans people are being treated right
now. But don't worry. Wehave a code word for emergencies and it
was trans rights. Good golly,that was the code folking beefy my bad,
but that was so loud. Well, yeah, people need to wake
(06:50):
up. We're making trans kids growup too fast. We should be keeping
them safe and we need to liftthem off. Oh not me now for
this conversation, I'm not going totake sides in the argument and play.
Besides, the show is just gettingsteam. I don't want to get canceled
(07:11):
right away. But that's not eventhe point. This is in comedy.
It's a lecture. It's a onesided screed that happens to take place in
a comedy show. Pretty classic oneat that. Does anybody care? What
about Lord Michaels. His entire careeris based on SNL and its legacy.
He created this show. He picksthe stars. Boy, what a track
(07:34):
record there? All the superstars incomedy, most of them came from Saturday
Night Live. Doesn't he care abouthis product or the legacy? I guess
not. And if you think we'rebeing unfair here or being too partisan,
well check this out. Here's comedianRyan Long. He's a Canadian, he's
moved to America. He is apolitical certainly anti awoke, but here he's
(07:56):
mocking conservatives for boycotting bud Light overthe Dylan Old Danny sponsorship deal. What's
up, everybody? Welcome back tothe Boyscast. Okay, Patriots, I'm
apologized for something that I'll have todo right now. But Danny will be
no longer with the Boys Cast asI found a bud Light in the fridge.
Apparently he's been drinking this even thoughhe knows the Boys cast his boycotting
the product. Wait, why areyou wearing potatoes because we're boycotting most of
(08:18):
the clothing companies, and I've torchedthe clothes. As you know. Nike
was on the list which I've givenyou, which I guess you don't care.
And not to mention, I've beenlooking at your phone and apparently you've
been buying Amazon stock. This issomething that you've been doing. Why are
you going through my phone? Alsowas part of an ETF very sorry Patriots,
an official Boys Cast apology. Iguess Danny doesn't care about this country,
doesn't care about the degenerates which havebeen subverting this country. I mean,
(08:39):
I'm looking at this list right now, Ryan, it's just every company
exactly, NFL, Starbucks, Nordstrom, Curig, Yeah, stopped advertising on
Hannity, Disney, gay stuff,America stuff, Home Deep Bay stuff.
Also no guns, same with Dixand also Chuck Taylor's was on the list,
Drake and the add so chuck himout. I apologize for the trader
that has intermidst people. Now.This clip is obviously poking fun at conservatives.
(09:03):
It's also funny. It's got alot of energy, which is important,
and it's a comedy bit. There'sno lectures here, there's no finger
wagging. You could say it's notfunny. It misses the mark, but
it's a skit, it's a sketch. It does what it's intended to do.
It's making a secondary statement beneath thewhole. Oh, conservatives are going
(09:24):
crazy about the culture wars. Well, you know what progressives are invading nearly
every element of our lives, whichis the laundry list of companies that this
particular sort boycotting, at least fauxbark boycotting. That's smart comedy, working
in multiple layers, appealing to boththe left and the right, seemingly one
side, but maybe just a littlebit on the other as well. No
(09:46):
SNL used to deliver these kind ofbits. Now you got to go to
YouTube. You got to search themout. Go to Rumble, check out
different websites, see different performers whoare trying to bring something new and fresh
and exciting to the public. Endup watching most of them on your smartphone.
But I guess that's just the waythings work in our culture today.
Good for Ryan Long for putting comedyfirst, for searching for the laughs where
(10:09):
they deserve to be found. MaybeLauren Michael's and company take some notes.
I've failed so far, and oneof the biggest goals I had for this
podcast. I really wanted to invitemore left leaning guests onto the show,
(10:33):
not to scream and shout, notto have an old crossfire style debate,
but to talk about movies, freespeech, pop culture and agree to disagree,
sometimes off My wife sa Bernie broSo. I have a little experience
in this area, not a lot, but a little, but that was
part of my goal here this week. I'm taking a small step in that
(10:54):
direction, but I do promise togo further moving forward. This week's guests
is Kat Rosenfield. She's smart,she's thought provoking, and she's certainly not
right of center at all. She'sa co host of Feminine Chaos podcast.
She's also a contributed to Unheard dotcom. If you haven't heard of Unheard
as unheard dot com, it's anexcellent site. I don't know if it's
(11:18):
left or right in the middle.It's just smart commentary that challenges your preconceived
notions. Good stuff. Kat's alsoa novelist. In case I wasn't enough,
her newest book is called You MustRemember This and it's a mystery.
Not a bad resume. Right nowagain, Cat, and I don't see
eye to eye on every issues.But I appreciate her takes on pop culture.
(11:39):
They're smart, they're engaging, andalso it's not tribalized. You can
tell her she's really thought about this. This is her take, take it
or leave it. But she's notgoing to basically subscribe to one party,
one rule, one idea. Listen, we're all guilty of that sometimes I
am too. We cover a lotof ground in this interview, but I
hope you appreciate a conversation that's onand unpredictable. Kat, Thank you for
(12:03):
joining the show. No, Ioften like to start things out with the
origin story, not being bitten bya radioactive spider, but how you became
who you are today? Because I'mgoing to guess as a young adult,
you didn't think I want to bean author and a pundit and a podcaster,
right, I don't know what thatwas in the mix for you in
your early years. So how didyou get where you are? And we
(12:24):
don't have to go through the wholestory, but how did you become an
influencer, a writer? What?I don't know what the best way to
frame you because you wear a lotof hats. Well, so there was
this radioactive spider. I'm actually alittle throne by being referred to as a
as a pundit and an influencer rightmyself as either one of these things.
(12:46):
Those are buzzwords. I just hadto put them out there. If you
have to, if or forgive me, yeah right right, you know you
got to. You gotta get thosewords in so that the algorithm can find
us. I want to I wantto talk about or what your and you
get me, n You'll be verydisappointed. So how did I get to
where I am? I really kindof fell backwards into being a writer.
(13:11):
I did go to college, butnot for anything writing related or writing adjacent.
I was an art major and Frenchmajor, because apparently I thought when
I was going to graduate that Iwas going to become a character and a
Jane Austen all right, well brandedand verageable young lady. And so what
I ended up doing was I movedto New York City and I got a
(13:33):
job as a book publicist, andI thought for about five minutes that that
was going to be my career,and then it turned out that I was
terrible at being a publicist. Thething about being a publicist is that you
have to be a really good liar, which I'm not, and you have
to be really good also at hypingup things that are objectively uninteresting and sometimes
(13:58):
terrible, like everything that comes byyour death. You have to be like,
don't sleep on this. This isgoing to change the world. It's
the most life changing books since thelast time I told you a book was
life changing. So basically what endedup happening was, as I was working
as a publicist, I was incontact with a lot of journalists, and
I eventually started to realize that Idid not want to do what I was
(14:20):
doing. I wanted to do whatthey were doing, and so I attempted
to pivot out of working in PRand into being a freelance writer and a
copywriter. That was going to bemy path, and it might have happened
for me if the economy hadn't impluded. This was two thousand and eight.
So what ended up actually happening wasthat I started freelancing kind of frantically,
(14:45):
just hustling, saying yes to anythingI could do that would pay. And
from there I ended up writing anovel. While I was jobless, I
finished my first novel. I endedup selling that I ended up getting through
I think like media bistro or Craigslist, a freelance gig as a blogger at
(15:07):
MTV that ultimately turned into a positionas a reporter at MTV News, and
slowly, you know, I managedto cobble together a livelihood. So it's
it's not a super interesting. It'sjust an arduous path that involves me just
writing and saying yes to things alot until I ended up here. That's
(15:28):
interesting. I worked at a paperin Pittsburgh, and I feel like a
lot of my fellow journalists ended upleaving journalism for PR, but you made
the opposite switch, so so kindgood for you. We're kind of we
always framed it in a very negativeway, like you're selling your soul or
your you know whatever whatever whoever journalistswould kind of do to kind of get
out of that business. But Ialso can't blame them because it is really
(15:48):
hard, you know, obviously,you weigh in a lot of different issues,
a lot of media issues on unheardin feminine chaos. What issues matter
to you the most these days whenyou're either off mic or or away from
your laptop, what are you thinkingabout? And just for a starter for
me, it's all about free speech. I'm obsessed with it. It really
almost literally keeps me up at night. But what's what's top of mine for
(16:10):
you these days? Also free speech? Yeah, you know, as a
as a person who writes fiction,especially seeing the influence of this sort of
um, I don't know what youwould call it. There's this sort of
conformist impulse that has always existed,of course, but to see it kind
(16:30):
of infiltrate the arts in the waythat it has over the past ten years
or so is alarming to me.I feel like worlds are colliding in a
way that's that's upsetting. In general, I would say that the kind of
through line in the way that Ithink about things in the topics that interest
me is that I'm pretty strongly antiauthoritarian. So, you know, the
(16:52):
things that I care about most inaddition to things like free speech, are
you know, prison reform, justicereform, m you know, getting rid
of like needless red teeth that keepspeople from living the lives that they should
be allowed to live without interference.Gotcha, you waste Recently, you're weight
in on the Scott Adams kurfuffle,and I'd just like to use the word
(17:15):
kurfuffle, So forgive me. Youknow, what he said I don't think
was racist. It was bizarre,It was poorly thought out, and I
think, as you mentioned in arecent Unheard column, he knew what he's
doing. This wasn't a surprise somewhatas smart as he is couldn't be unaware
of the ramifications. But what dowe take away from that? Because it
just seems so odd. It seemedsuch a an unforced error. I didn't
(17:40):
get the goal. I think thatScott Adams is now selling Dilbert through a
locals dot com account, so maybethat was the endgame. But what a
weird way to get there. WhatI mean? I just like like we
to look back in ten or twentyyears at the Scott Adams meltdown and have
something profound to say about it.But what are your thoughts right now?
Oh? I don't think we're goingto be looking back at it in ten
(18:00):
years at all. I think it'sgoing to be lost to history. The
least interesting things that happened in thisvery, very stupid time that we're living
in. Um. Yeah, Ithink I see the Scott Adams thing as
part of a larger phenomenon that's takingmany different forms, but the through line
(18:22):
is that there is this impulse andit's it's coming kind of top down from
all of the places that where cultureis made and where the sort of national
conversation is being set. There's thisimpulse to try to, you know,
make us even more polarized than weare, particularly along racial lines. I
(18:44):
see this in all kinds of places, but you know, especially online,
that there's this desire and I don'tI mean, I have theories as to
why it is, but to keepus at each other's throats, to fracture
us, to you know, tomake us mistrustful of each other. And
on the one hand, you know, in my offline life where I am
(19:04):
friends with normal people who are notin the media and you know, don't
think or talk about any of thesubjects that I write about the daily basis,
you know, it's it's not likethat, it's not succeeding. But
in the places, like you know, in the media and on Twitter,
you know, unfortunately, these areplaces that do have an outsized influence over
(19:26):
you know, the rest of societyat large and how we relate to each
other in that society, I dosee it really gaining a foothold in ways
that I find disturbing. Yeah,I know Twitter isn't real life, but
it's real life adjacent. Is itjust the clicks and the attention where if
you stir things up there's more ofa chance you'll get attention paid to yourself,
(19:48):
and there's an economic incentive there aswell. I mean, is it
that cold and calculated? There's somethingelse you think a foot Yeah, I
mean I think it's that cold andcalculated and also that boring. You know
that you've got a lot of peoplewho you don't Sorry, my dog just
literally farted in there kidding on thecouch next to me. I don't know
if that picked up or not.You know, my mind does usually silent
(20:12):
but deadly. So I you know, a pox on your dog but just
goes I have a better dog doesn'tmean anything but go on. Um.
Yeah, I'm saying before that happened. Sorry, so you know why this
is happening. You know you don'thear this on MPR, by the way,
which is why I appreciate it.Yes, exactly, Yeah, I
(20:33):
was saying it is it is thatboring. I think that you've got people
who basically you know, just wantus to kind of fall into a civil
war of sorts because like, thinkof the clicks, you know, and
that's awful. Yeah, I mean, just imagine if Trump is leading the
civil war, then the clicks gooff off the map. I you know,
(20:56):
one of things you talked about ina recent episode of Feminine Chaos was
banning books and the culture war what'sgoing on in schools today? And it's
funny, I was listening to whatI was agreeing, I was disagreeing.
I was being confronted with ideas thatI don't normally have or which is one
of the reason why I enjoyed thatepisode on your show. From a conservative
point of view, critique critique themovement, I consider myself right leaning conservatives,
(21:21):
so you know, it's it's mea little bit too. But what's
what's the truth? What's the reality? What's the fiction about these banning book
situations? Because when I hear aboutit, it's pornographic books that probably shouldn't
be in a kid's school. Andthen from the other side, it's framed
in a more uh, you know, authoritarian perspective. What's what's in the
middle are What's what am I missing? Oh that's well. I mean,
(21:45):
you know, I'm not a conservative, right, yeah, I mean you're
you're kind of libertarian ish, isit? What's is? You strike me
as someone who doesn't fall easily intolabels either. Yeah, I mean I
was, you know, in thethe nineties, I was like the quintessential
free speech, leading heart liberal.And my values and views have not changed
(22:08):
really much at all, but theground kind of shifted under me, so
that a lot of the stuff thatwas important to a liberal person at the
nineties was like thirty years ago.Now that's expressing, but you know that
this stuff is now, for whateverreason, coded right wing. Yeah.
It's Bill mor syndrome strange, yeah, basically, And you know I've I've
(22:32):
not I'm not fretting about it atthis point, but I just, you
know, I don't want anybody toget the wrong idea, you know,
to be like, what's this ladysaying she's supposed to be conservative? Um,
what is happening with banning books?My take on this, I think
is satisfying to no one. Greatthat's the anti click pape by the way.
Yeah, it's basically that everybody sucks. So my feeling is you have
(22:56):
on the one hand, the rightis engaged in what we think of is
the kind of og book bands whereyou have concerned parents or just kind of
people who are generally prude trying toremove stuff that they find morally objectionable because
it's too sexy, or it's toogay, or it's too violent, you
(23:21):
know, from school curriculums. AndI don't know. I'm of two minds
about it. On the one hand, I would love for people to be
able to access every book ever,for all time. On the other hand,
a classroom is a small place andyou can only fit so many literal,
physical copies of books into it,and so I understand that, you
(23:44):
know, some things need to bethere, needs to be curation, and
that's fine. The thing that Ifind frustrating is that there is a left
wing version of this in the formof weeding that happens in libraries. You
know, you have everyday librarians goingthrough their collections and getting rid of stuff
(24:08):
that they consider offensive or outdated orwhatever, usually on much of the same
grounds that you have you know,school boards or parents petitioning for the removal
of things that they find objectable froma conservative perspective, and this doesn't really
get talked about, you know,this discussion of books being ejected from classrooms
or curricula for moral reasons. Wealways talk about that as though it's exclusively
(24:30):
right coded, and it's not.So That's one thing I think a reasonable
conversation about this needs to address,you know, the kind of basic fact
that there's going to always have tobe curation. You know, there's only
so much based on the shelves,and we need to find a way to
do that as fairly and ideally,as non ideologically as possible. The thing
(24:52):
that really concerns me, though,is that there is a push now and
this I do see coming almost exclusive, excuse me, exclusively from the left,
just because they're the ones who reallyhold the cultural power to do this.
You see this push to edit thecontent itself, you know, to
censor things out the source and toinfluence what is being written by intimidating for
(25:18):
the people who are creating the books, by intimidating artists where they live.
And when you try to talk aboutthis, you get a lot of pushback
from progressives who, you know,it's like, there's nothing to see here,
it's not happening. Also, it'sgood that it's happening. It's a
very frustrating conversation to try to have. And if I can jump in the
American Dirt saga, we don't havetime to dig into it because it's a
(25:41):
it's a massive story. But everyonelistening should go google it, research it,
find out what happened with that author, with that book, with that
story. It's an amazing you know, you just missed this. Gut this
the Delbert situation a while ago,and I get that to a certain degree.
It's in a way it's a bignothing. It's also indicative. But
I think the American Dirt story reallydoes speak to the times. So but
(26:02):
continue that. I want you,I want to get more your thoughts about
American dirt, well just I meanjust about the about the sort of the
push and pull. I think forme, one of my frustrations is I
don't know what to believe. SoI read book banning, book banning,
book banning, and then people inthe right will say, well, the
book in question is a hard point, graphic book about you know, preteens
(26:25):
having sex before they hit eighteen.I'm thinking, yeah, I'm okay with
that not being in my kids school. That's a that's a win for me.
But then you hear maybe whispers ofother things, maybe more a novel
that has inappropriate themes or suggestions orand then I don't you know, that's
where I that's why I get myhair stands on end in a negative way.
So I think, I think partof this, and maybe I'm wrong,
(26:48):
is that I don't know what totrust, you know, And I
think that both sides often will maybeeither exclude certain arguments or not even accept
certain arguments. Yeah, that's verytrue. I mean we live in a
moment now where it's possible to sothoroughly silo yourself into you know, one
kind of very closed information economy thatwe're at this point all kind of working
(27:14):
with different versions of what we thinkthe truth is, Like there's no consensus
truth. And I see this happeningnow, and I see it potentially only
getting more fraught and more like potentas a phenomenon as we get into a
world where like you can basically AIgenerate something that looks real that isn't and
(27:37):
you know, anybody can do this. So I see reality fracturing in a
way that is like very kind ofdystopian and sort of like sci fi matrix
in a way that I'm I'm tryingnot to freak out about. I'm sort
of waiting to see what happens.But I perceive this as being something that's
going to be relevant and be importantmoving forward to how we understand the world
(28:03):
we live in and how we processinformation. I'm just trying to think,
you know, in terms of notknowing what to what to believe or not
knowing how to draw lines. Youmentioned like pornographic books in schools, and
I think for the most part that'sactually kind of a straw man. And
(28:26):
there is this one book and itactually, as a person who still identifies
as being mainly on the left,it frustrates me that this is the hill
that my fellow progressives have decided theywant to die on. It's this book
called Gender Queer. It is agraphic novel, so it is illustrated.
It does contain objectively pornographic depictions ofsomebody wearing a dildo and getting a blowjob.
(28:52):
And it's am I allowed to sayblowjob on your podcast? I don't
know. I think people will getget they thrust of it, no pun
intended. If I beat out aword or two. You just keep keep
on keeping on. I'll worry aboutthat later, all right, Yeah,
we'll just roll with it anyway.So this is this is a graphic novel.
(29:15):
It was originally for adults. Itwas then awarded this Alex Award,
which is a librarian driven or givenaward, that is, it's given to
works of adult fiction that they've determinedhave special interest to young readers ages twelve
(29:36):
to eighteen. And under the auspicesof the Alex Award, you end up
with books that have received it makingtheir way into school libraries, middle and
high school libraries because you know,it's been deemed like relevant in some way
to that audience. This book isI think objectively, like it's really not
something that should be in a school. It's just there's really there's no reason,
(30:00):
you know, like if a kidwants access to this, they can
get it, you know, anyof the millions of other ways that you
can gain access to books. Youknow, there's this question of like what
do we want to sanction kind ofas having in public schools, what we
want to sanction socially as being likeappropriate for children to access in a government
(30:22):
run institution for lack of a betterword. I think that in a normal
situation, people, reasonable people couldlook at this depiction of a person again
wearing a strap on and receiving oralsex and say, yeah, you know,
we do not need this, likethis illustrated pornographic work in the school
(30:48):
library. But because everything has gottenso incredibly politicized and everyone is so dug
in, this is you have,you know, folks basically defending this kind
of senseless inclusion. If we couldget past gender queer and just like dial
it back to talking about you know, how do we draw like some reasonable
(31:11):
lines, and I mean that thatwould be great. I think I think
that would be a productive conversation.I think it would actually be pretty easy
for reasonable people on both sides tosay, yeah, okay, like we
draw the line, for instance,at graphic novels, you know, graphic
depictions of sex, like illustrated depictionsof sex. It's literally, you know,
(31:34):
it's visual pornography. Yeah, maybewe draw the line at oh,
I don't know, at you know, books that contain very very graphic sex
scenes. But I do think thatthere's a difference between something that is like
written erotica or something like flowers inthe attic which I mean, like everybody
(31:55):
read that growing up. I don'tknow if you did. I think in
the one person we did not,but I'm aware of it. Yeah,
yeah, yeah. It was sortof like a nineties right of past.
Like you know, if you were, if you were like an eighties or
nineties teenager, like you read thatbook kind of secretly, you know,
under the cover is because it isvery sexy and allsothmes incest, but it's
a but it's a book. It'sa written, you know, description of
(32:15):
what's happening. And I see thatas different. And I don't know,
maybe that's hypocritical of me, butto me, that's an easy line to
draw. You know, there's adefinitely different. But I think the bigger
issue is that a progressive a willmeaning progressive will dig in their heels because
they fear a slippery slope. Okay, that gets banned, that something else
kept banned. And I think thathappens in the right too. I think
(32:36):
anything anything with any kind of mentionof gun control, it's it's slippery slope
time. And I think there areslopes that are slippery these days, and
I think that's that makes it evenmore complicated. One of the things that
I when I listen to you,when I read you, I feel a
bit challenged at times, which isgood, but it also you strike me
as someone you can label yourself howyou want, but I think you kind
of hover above the ideological frame morethan your average person, which, again
(33:00):
as a compliment, how do youdo that? And I'll give you a
quickie. One thing I do isif a story seems just like the most
reddest of redin meat for meat,for me, as a conservative, I
get skeptical right away. Or whenI listen to people who I like who
are on the right, I tryto poke holes and what they're saying throughout
the show, even though I mostlyagree, and even though I'm enjoying the
(33:22):
show, Well, what do youdo to kind of you know, you
don't want to kind of be partof a team, because I think then
you have the flaws of your team. How do you how do you kind
of ward against that? Um?Well, I think part of this is
just like my natural disposition. I'mnot a politics as team sports person.
I'm much more journalistically inclined and thatI'm more curious about what is true or
(33:51):
about you know, what people think. Then I am hell bent on prescribing
things. I don't actually have alaw of a lot of strong opinions about
what should be or like how weshould do or fix things. Um,
I'm just really curious about why thingsare the way they are and what is
(34:15):
actually happening. I see my myjob as a writer as basically kind of
kicking over rocks and looking at what'sunder there. And you know, sometimes
what's under there is really disgusting,but I want to point at it and
be like, look at that wriggling, weird thing, like what is that?
What does it mean? And howdoes it connect? The kind of
politics is team sports ethos that hasemerged. I think it's really taken hold,
(34:40):
including in journalism, which is notgood for journal that. Yeah,
But I mean, you know,once you start, once you start thinking
of things in those terms like isthis helpful or harmful to my team,
you start turning away from the disgustingthing that's under a rock that is interesting
(35:02):
because it's because it's bad for yourteam to have it like acknowledged that it's
there, if that makes sense.Yeah, And I never want to do
that. And I'm actually I thinkI'm congenitally incapable of doing that, which
has not necessarily been a good thingin my life, but it does keep
me from getting entrenched in some ofthe kind of like sniping, you know,
(35:30):
raw raw stuff that happens when peoplefeel like they need to be activists
rather than truthseekers. Yeah, andyou know, I think you as a
storyteller is a better story often topeel back the curtain and see what led
to this thing that looks so ungainly. So that's that's important as well.
If we're Litchigo Kata want to takea little bit into your new novel,
(35:52):
you must remember this a gothic mysterywith a Knives outspin. I was kind
of curious you've done, you know, young adult novels, a lot of
different kinds of writing. What drewyou to this story? And do you
think you'll did this kind of giveyou like an appetite for these kinds of
stories. So I think I thinkthere's a real hunger out there right now
for mysteries. You know, theKnives Out franchise itself is such a big
hit. Yeah, you know,I've always been drawn to um like thriller
(36:16):
and mystery. I love puzzles andso um you know, a mystery or
a thriller, anything that has like, you know, the kind of twists
in it. It's it's like apuzzle and a story. So what could
be better? UM? I didused to write why I wrote UM like
sort of mystery psychological thriller. WhenI was writing in YAUM, I was
(36:37):
canceled from ya So I don't getto do that anymore, not that I
would necessarily have wanted to stay there. I like writing for adults better of
our It's gonna be for a varietyof reasons. Um, but yeah,
you know, I've always been drawnto um stories like this. I think
for the same reason that I likewhat animates my my fiction writing and what
(36:58):
animates my work as a journalist ora cultural critic. I think it is
very much the same thing. I'mjust curious in what people do to each
other at the extremes, you know, and why they do it, and
murder is rather extreme. Thank youfor doing the Hollywood in Total podcast.
Kat. Of course, please checkout her provocative podcast. She's got a
good one Feminine Chaos, and evenbetter, pick up one of her five
(37:19):
novels. Five. I wrote onebook. I was one and done so
I'm very envious of that. Andof course, the most recent mystery is
you must start. What's that?One is a good start? Yeah?
Yeah, I like to retire ona happy note. But the most recent
mystery, of course, is youmust remember this. The podcast is Feminine
Chaos. Kat. Thank you forjoining the show. Keep up provoking ideas
(37:44):
and interests and readers. And Ithink we need more people like you.
Thanks, thanks, thanks for havingme. All right, there's just enough
time left for one tip, justone. I grew up loving radio,
loved it. Love, can't saylove enough. Just was my life as
a young man. Howard Sterns,Soupy Sales, Rush Limbaugh. Just adore
(38:07):
them all, listen to hours andhours of their conversations. Of course,
today I'm addicted to podcasts. Ihope you are too. But my latest
fix is the Ruthless Variety program.Yes program. Yeah, it's another political
talk show. This one is different, trust me. Show's hosts are very
(38:28):
funny. They love to laugh,and they merge wicked, smart observations about
politics and politicians with those jokes.Now, all you need to know about
the Ruthless podcast is its annual HackMadness Tourney. It just wrapped up you
know, marches just right behind us, and it let voters weigh in on
the Beltway's worst political hacks. I'mnot sure what that means. Well,
(38:49):
I think Don Lemon, Jen Ruben, Taylor, Brens, Joy Read and
others all the hacks all in onecompetition. It is brilliant. So once
you wrapped up this show, givethe gang over at Ruthless a try.
You will not be disappointed. AllRight, before you flee, please consider
giving Hollywood in Toto some love overat iTunes. A five star review would
(39:10):
be spectacular. And if you don'thave time, maybe just go over to
Hollywood intoto dot com. That's mywebsite, my home base, and it's
updated daily with great stories. Seeyou next time.
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