Lawfare’s War on Truth Tellers | Dr Mary Talley Bowden & Rachel Alexander

In an age when the powerful wield lawfare as a weapon to silence dissent, today’s conversation with Dr. Mary Talley Bowden and Rachel Alexander exposes how licensing boards and political operatives work in tandem to intimidate, overwhelm, and ultimately break those who dare to speak truth in a culture governed by fear. As we stand at this crossroads where corruption masquerades as justice and bureaucratic machinery seeks to crush the voices that refuse to bow, we shine a light on the strategies deployed against truth-tellers and consider how courage, clarity, and unwavering conviction can still pierce the darkness that so many want to keep hidden from the American people.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
But we are opposed around the world by a monolithic
and ruthless conspiracy that relies primarily on.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
Covet means for expanding its sphere of influence, on infiltration
instead of invasion, on subversion instead of elections, on intimidation,
instead of free choice, on guerrillas by night instead of.

Speaker 1 (00:30):
Armies by day.

Speaker 3 (00:32):
It is a system which has conscripted vast human and
material resources into the building of a type and my
highly efficient machine that combines military, diplomatic, intelligence, economic, scientific,
and political operations.

Speaker 1 (00:51):
Its preparations are concealed.

Speaker 3 (00:53):
Not published.

Speaker 1 (00:54):
Its mistakes are buried, not headlined. Its dissenters are silence, praise.

Speaker 4 (01:02):
No one appoint yourself an arbiter.

Speaker 5 (01:04):
If what's true and what's.

Speaker 4 (01:05):
Not true, then there's really no and to the power
they you have now assumed for yourself. Yeah, they're implementing
this massive brainwashing attempt to hijack everybody. Hey, guys, welcome

(01:27):
to this episode of The Jeff Dornick Show. Thank you
guys so much for tuning in. You know, we're going
live every Tuesday and Thursday one o'clock Eastern at ten
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tuning in. On Thursday, I've got doctor Sansona is coming
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talking about, you know, everything that's going on with with
his lawsuit out there in Florida. So make sure you

(01:48):
guys are tuning in for that. A couple of things
really quick before we do get started. Number one, make
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(02:10):
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(02:31):
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guys are doing that at Jeffdornick dot com slash health. So,
without further ado, we're gonna go ahead and bring on

(02:52):
our guests. We've got two guests today. We actually have
doctor Mary Tally Boden and Rachel Alexander joining us. But
welcome to the show, both of you guys, and I'm
glad we could sit down and chat here for a bit.

Speaker 6 (03:04):
Thanks for having us.

Speaker 4 (03:06):
Yeah, definitely. Well, you know, and so you know, I
think for me, you know, looking at you know, especially
you doctor Boden, with your fight against the medical board
out there in Texas, that to me, really I wanted
to have this conversation sit down with both of you
guys because you guys can kind of both speak to
the tactics that are happening and the lawfair that's happening.

(03:26):
And I think that for a lot of us, and
Rachel mentioned this before when before we went live, is
that I think the headlines oftentimes are the law fair.
You know, legally, we saw this with Trump, we saw
this with some of his attorneys and all that kind
of stuff. But they're also doing this within the medical system.
They're doing this in a variety of ways. So before
we really dive into it, I kind of want to

(03:46):
give each of you guys a chance to briefly share
your guys' experience with this, and then we kind of
dive into the details and stuff. But doctor Boden, just
for people that maybe they've seen some of the headlines
but not a lot of the details, if you can
kind of explain your experience with dealing with the medical
board out there in Texas.

Speaker 7 (04:03):
Yeah, I received four complaints from the medical Board during
the pandemic. Three of those were regarding ivermectin. One of
them was from Houston Methodist Hospital because I resigned when
they publically attacked me and I had to spend over
two hundred and fifty thousand dollars defending myself against those complaints,
and everything was eventually dropped except for one complaint where

(04:26):
they said that I had unprofessional conduct regarding a patient
in the hospital that was suing to get ivermectin. I
became the expert witness as part of their lawsuit. They
needed a physician willing to prescribe the ivermectin, so I
submitted that prescription with the lawsuit, and they immediately sent

(04:47):
in a complaint to the medical board against me that
didn't end up being what they actually got me on.
They basically went fishing for more things they could nail
me on regarding this case and ended up. You know,
it's been four years now and I'm still fighting it.

(05:09):
They issued a public reprimand a couple weeks ago, and
this was through the State Office of Administrative Hearings, which
is administrative court through the judicial I mean through the
executive branch. And it's very hard to win in that
kind of court. So beyond that, I have to now
appeal to the judicial court, the state district court. But

(05:31):
even at this last hearing, they really aren't playing fair.
They didn't let my attorneys in on the meeting and
I didn't realize that my attorneys weren't present, so we're
having to do a rehearing, which maybe this Friday. It's
a little bit up in the air, but it has
been a slog I could have made it go away
a long time ago, but I'm fighting on principle. They

(05:55):
you know, they basically back you into a corner unless
and if you don't have the you know, the money
to fight them or the endurance, you basically have to cave.
But luckily I've been able to stay in the fight.

Speaker 6 (06:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (06:08):
No, and it's been it's been crazy following following your
story just because it's and I was telling you YouTube
before we went live, as I'm just sitting here like
I get even though I totally disagree, I get the
I get doing this in the midst of COVID because
everybod it was crazy and you know all of that.
But we're years later, and you know, now we now
we know how safe and effective ivermectin is. We see

(06:30):
how you see all the all the craziest with the
lockdowns and all that, and they're still pursuing it, which
to me is really crazy.

Speaker 7 (06:38):
Well, and ivermectin is going to be over the calendar
in Texas in two weeks. So all of this over
an incredibly safe drug. It's really comes down the fact
that you are just not allowed to get a second
opinion if you were in a hospital. Uh, they did
not want me, uh providing any kind of opinion in

(07:00):
regards to this patient's care. And going forward, I'm going
to push for legislation to change that so that if
you are in a hospital, you can bring in your
personal doctor if even if that doctor doesn't have privileges,
you know, as long as they have good standing with
their license, they should be allowed to have some input
in your care. But this hospital, Texas Hugile Hospital in

(07:22):
Fort Worth, Texas, was not going to have any of that.
They fought tooth and nail to prevent me from providing
this patient with a second opinion. And they fought tooth
and nail to prevent this patient from getting a drug
that is literally safer than tile and all.

Speaker 4 (07:36):
Yeah, it's it's it's absolutely bonkers. Now, No, Rachel, I
kind of want to throw it over to you, and
you know, you can kind of share some of your
experience with obviously you've you've personally dealt with lawfair. You've
been reporting on it extensively probably you know. For me,
you know, like just even seeing a lot of your reporting,
it's like, you know, to me, if I'm looking at
like what's going on with law fair, I always looked
to you know, your your articles and all and all
that kind of stuff. So share with everybody your experience

(07:58):
with with law fair.

Speaker 5 (08:00):
So basically I was one of the early attorney victims
of law fair. Way back in twenty ten, I was
working for Maericopa County Attorney Andrew Thomas. He was very innovative.
He was, you know, on the forefront of combating illegal
immigration in Arizona before anybody else was. And you know,
he even turned Sheriff Joe Arpile around on the issue

(08:21):
because our pile wasn't always cracking down on immigration, so
he turned him around on that. He did all this
other groundbreaking work he helped get you know, four initiatives
banning illegal immigration and cracking down on it passed with
over seventy percent voter support, and one of them was
no bail for legal immigrants who commit serious crimes, right,
no nonsense, regular policy. Well, he discovered that the Maricopa

(08:43):
County Superior Court judges weren't enforcing the law. They had
instructed each other not to enforce that law. So he
went after the judges. He had a press conference, he
denounced them, and they the judges ended up colluding with
the Maricopa County supervisors. Against all of this, Thomas tried

(09:03):
to prosecute some of these really corrupt county supervisors. I
now say that Maricopa County is the most corrupt county
in the nation, not Cook County, because Jesse Jackson Junior,
when he was in Congress, he got caught doing the
same thing that we tried to prosecute Americopa County supervisor
for which was raising tens of thousands of dollars on
a campaign, and the Maricopa County supervisor didn't even have

(09:26):
an opponent, but he raised seventy thousand dollars and spent
it almost all on luxury items for himself and his family,
whereas Jesse Jackson Junior did the same thing and he
served two years in prison in.

Speaker 6 (09:38):
The Chicago area.

Speaker 5 (09:39):
So anyways, we tried to go after them, and I
was put my name was put on a Rico lawsuit
that was filed against the judges and the supervisors for collusion,
and so they filed bar complaints against us, and they
disbarred him. They disbarred one of his senior prosecutors, and
they suspended my law license for six months. But even
though it's now twenty twenty five, they the corrupt cabal,

(10:02):
will never let me back into practice law because they
say I have to pay one hundred and one thousand
dollars the cost of the disciplinary Pastri needs not only
against me, but against Andy and the other prosecutor who
was disbarred.

Speaker 4 (10:16):
That that again, it's it's insane the kind of tactics
that that they employ, you know, and again in both
in both of your guys's experience. I mean, you know,
and you know, I'll throw it to you, Rachel, and
then you know, back to you, doctor Boden. But it's like,
what what you know For people that are on the
outside observing, you know, obviously they'll they'll see headlines all
to see certain things. But what Rachel, what was what

(10:37):
were some of the most shocking tactics that were used
against you? And I know you just kind of briefly explained,
you know, like you know, they're making you charge, you know,
pay one hundreds more than one hundred thousand dollars, uh,
you know, in in order to be able to you know,
practice again. But like, what what are some of them
you know, surprising shocking tactics that they use in order
to either you know, silence, you control, you, the whole deal.

Speaker 5 (11:00):
So when they started the investigation against us, they demanded
to know everything I had ever posted on the Internet
in the last five years, whether anonymous, whether comments, and
you know, once we started to make a big stink
about it, they backed off on that request. And then
they ended up not even doing anything about all the

(11:21):
stuff that I'd written because they knew I was a
conservative writer. That's why I was a target. But you know,
they did that, and then there was an email where
the chief bar prosecutor told us, we will not charge
you guys the costs of flying in this pricey team
from Colorado to prosecute you, because they flew in all
these out of state prosecutors and then they put them

(11:42):
up at the Biltmore hotel. But he lied, so even
though we have an email from him stating that they
ended up charging us all these costs of their airfare,
their food, their hotels, and this is unheard of like
if you look at attorneys who are dis barred unlike me,
they merely suspended my license for six months. If you

(12:03):
look at the cost of the average attorney who's just barred,
there order to pay like two thousand dollars in costs,
not one hundred and one thousand dollars.

Speaker 4 (12:12):
Yeah, yeah, which which is crazy. And I know, doctor Boden,
they've been throwing hurdles at you left and right throughout
this entire and throughout this entire time, right.

Speaker 7 (12:21):
Yeah, I mean the biggest tactics they use are basically
dragging it out as long as they possibly can and
making it as expensive as they can. But you know,
there have been other things, like they through open records requests,
I discovered that they were gossiping about me the board
members before they even brought the complaints. And the person

(12:43):
that was leading that effort and the gossip was the
person that resided over my initial hearing. It's called the
informal Settlement conference and it's a closed door hearing. They
you know, tried and failed three times to find an
expert to testify against me. They had no witnesses. We

(13:05):
also discovered during depositions that they made no effort to
get to make an investigation prior to bringing complaints against me.
They took the hospital's information at face value without talking
to any of the other involved parties we have the lawyer.
At one point, I threw up my hands and I

(13:26):
said I'm going pro se because it just seemed like
my fate was determined and I was just bleeding money.
And when I did that, the attorney for TMB tried
to trick me into taking an offer that would have
left a permanent mark on my record, even though I
questioned that I did reporter to the Texas Bar but

(13:47):
I don't know if anything came of it. So it's
just it's you know, and you know, I'm not a lawyer.
I was. This is the first time I've been involved
in something like this, so maybe this is par for
the course, but just shocked to me. I did not
realize how much time and money would go into defending
myself against this.

Speaker 4 (14:07):
Yeah, which which which I think I think is is
you know, the tactic that that that they realize that
they have the power. Because when you think about it,
if you if you're going up against the board or
you're going up you know, whether it's a big corporation
or the government, they kind of have unlimited resources. And
you know, and I and I and I've seen them
use this against people, you know, like me being in
the tech industry now, like I've seen big tech companies

(14:28):
do this against smaller tech companies and to wrap them
up in lawsuits and then that way they can kind
of eliminate competition. You see this with you know, government
entities and all that, and they'll they'll weaponize this knowing
that you may have finite resources and they have unlimited resources.
And it's this day David versus Goliath battle that is oftentimes,
you know, it's oftentimes settled because one party doesn't have

(14:50):
the resources to to you know, really pursue this and
defend themselves. And that's that's kind of the problem that
that I see in this is is that that to me,
that's one of the big tactics that they that they
will use in order to control somebody or eliminate somebody
from you know, you know, standing up against them or
going against their wishes and all that. And to me,
there's got there's got to be a way to overcome

(15:11):
that and figure out a solution to where that can't
be weaponized again against people. What do you what do
you think, Rachel, And is there a solution to this
from that standpoint?

Speaker 5 (15:24):
Well, I think we have to get people more interested in,
you know, helping out those of us who have been victimized.
You know, I wrote an article for town Hall recently
about how there needs to be a law passed by
Congress that gives us a remedy where not only can
the Department of Justice go after these corrupt organizations and
sue them for what they did to us, but we

(15:45):
should have a private right of action ourselves. So that's,
you know, one option. Another option is a lot of
this stuff is state controlled, so the state legislature needs
to come in and make a law and stop this abuse.
We've been trying since two thousand two. Well, you know,
I testified to the state legislature in twenty twelve trying
to get lost paths, but we never had any luck

(16:05):
because there was always one Republican lawyer in the legislature
who did not want to vote against the Arizona bar
because they did not want to be targeted by the bar.
So trying to get legislation passed has been extremely difficult.
That hasn't worked, and I think it's just, you know,
everybody wants to chase the shiny penny. Everybody wants to

(16:26):
talk about transgenders. But you know, I don't ever hear
people talking about doctors, you know, being targeted. That's just
not a hot sexy issue. And so you know, these
other issues are sucking up all the money, they're sucking
up all the and one other thing too, I have
to point out, I don't know if the doctors are
the same, but with the Arizona bar and state bars,

(16:47):
they charge exorbitant amounts of dues from attorneys, a lot
of them which go to politically persecute attorneys. Arizona bars
charges the second highest in the country dues of a
man Tory bar, second only after Alaska. That's how they're
able to just spend all these resources coming after us.

Speaker 6 (17:06):
The dudes are way too high.

Speaker 4 (17:09):
Yeah. Well, and and and with when it comes to
the to the to the medical boards, doctor Boden, like,
is that the same there? And and and you know,
and I'll kind of throw it back to both of
you guys after you were you were you respond, doctor Boden,
But like when you when you think about it, it feels
it feels like both of these kinds of you know, boards,
whether you're talking about the airs on a state bar
or or the medical boards, they're they're kind of rogue,

(17:30):
even though they have so much power. They have they have,
they have, they have, they have, you know, basically they
can decide whether or not really you can practice in
that state. But they're kind of rogue. They're like, who
are they actually bolden to.

Speaker 6 (17:43):
Exactly?

Speaker 7 (17:44):
I actually testified to try to rain in their budget
because it seems like they're they have unlimited funds and
it was feudal and you know, nothing happened with that.
You know, they are appointed by Governor Abbot, So in
my opinion, we need new leadership. Abbot has not done

(18:04):
anything about my case. And I'm not the only one
in Texas that has gone through this with the Medical Board.
Eric Kinson is another E and T like myself, who
lost his license temporarily because he refused to wear a
mask in his office. Multiple doctors have been investigated by
the Medical Board for prescribing ivermectin during the pandemic. So,

(18:29):
you know, we need new leadership. I'm very excited about
Doc Pete Chambers. Doc peat Chambers like minded physician who
was working on the border during the pandemic. He's a
green Bereat purple heart flight surgeon and he gave his
troops informed consent about the vaccines and was fired. So

(18:50):
now he is running for governor Texas and he is
vowed to reform the Medical Board. He wants to bring
me on board to to help do that. So, yeah,
I think we really just need to major reforms, especially
in Texas. Everybody thinks Texas is this independent, freedom loving state,

(19:12):
but we are home to the largest medical complex in
the world, the Texas Medical Center, and we are home
to the first MANDATES tech in the country for COVID
shots that happened April first, twenty twenty one Houston Methodist Hospital.
They paved the way for the rest of the country.
I spoke out against the mandates and then they viciously

(19:32):
attacked me, and that's that was part of my issue
with the Medical Board. I resigned when they attacked me,
and then they turned me in the Medical Board for
resigning while supposedly under investigation.

Speaker 4 (19:45):
Yeah. Well, I think that this is one of those
things too that you know, I think when we've eliminated
in the medical industry, the ability for doctors to really
practice based upon you know, their expertise and their experience
and really you really customize the treatment for patients. And
it seems like it's you know, you know, on one hand,
you've got a lot of these big corporations that run

(20:07):
the hospitals and doctors groups and all that kind of stuff,
and then they kind of will dictate to their employees
basically the doctors this is how you practice. But then
you have the medical boards that also then come in
and then tell the doctors what they can and can't do,
whether or not the doctors actually agree with And I'm
you know, we're out here in California and I think
that there's thirty seven pediatricians right now that are under

(20:27):
probation right now for writing vaccine exemption, some of them
to vaccine injured children. And they're under probation for writing
too many vaccine exemptions. And you know, so now they
have to be under the supervision of another, you know,
physician to make sure that they don't actually write more
vaccine exemptions. And I remember talking to one doctor where
like literally they said that they wrote a vaccine exemption

(20:48):
for a kid that had a vaccine injury to another vaccine.
But because they couldn't show this that there was one
particular ingredient in the previous vaccine in this other one,
that they weren't legally allowed to write another vaccine exemption
unless they could prove that which ingredient caused the vaccine injury.
And you're just sitting here and you're like, how does
a medical board have that kind of authority to basically

(21:11):
override the judgment of a physician dealing with a specific case.

Speaker 7 (21:17):
Yeah, it's really bad, and I am suing over that
exact issue with three other physicians. We're suing the Federation
of State Medical Boards because they are this umbrella, nonprofit
private organization that seems to have some sort of control
over all the state medical boards. And one of the plainists,
Mary Kelly Sutton, lost her license in California for writing

(21:40):
I think she wrote sixteen exemptions, that's it, and she
lost her license. But it's really a free speech issue
and it really came to a head during COVID, but
it started before COVID, especially in California, was sort of
the foreerunner of that, and then when COD came around,

(22:01):
Federation State Medical Boards issued a directive to all the
medical boards to go after doctors for spreading misinformation or
anything that wasn't consensus opinion. And that's just not that's
not how we were trained. You know, we are trained
to debate and argue, and it's a process. It's especially

(22:25):
during the pandemic, the science was not settled. So I'm
excited about this lawsuit. It's a First Amendment issue, fourteenth
Amendment issue as well, and hopefully we can bring to
light what is really going on, because yet medical mandates

(22:46):
are just fundamentally wrong, full stop. But besides that, it's
a physician has to have the right to disagree and
not risk the threat of their license for disagreeing with
other doctors.

Speaker 6 (23:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (23:01):
Well, because because like when you when you when you
think about it, like it, if you're going consensus based,
that just basically means it's a popularity vote. Whichever side
has more people. That's basically the way that it goes.
I mean, I mean, we we used to you know,
it used to be a popular vote that Lobotomi's worked.
Clearly we know they didn't. So should should we override
doctors that you know opposed lobotomy? Like when you actually
sit down and you think about it, logically, can like

(23:23):
this whole consensus thing doesn't make sense. But I think
there's there's one thing, and I want to throw it
over to you, Rachel, that that you brought up, doctor Boden,
which is you know that there seems to be a
coordinated effort across boards, uh, you know, to kind of
you know, you know, implement a lot of these tactics.

Speaker 5 (23:37):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (23:38):
You know, Rachel, have you seen that same kind of
thing when it comes to the law there in the
legal side of things as well, Because again, you're dealing
with all the state bar associations, but it seems like
it's happening across the country. Is is this more coordinated
than just some individual bar associations going rogue?

Speaker 5 (23:56):
Absolutely, we all know the American Bar Association is over
all this. And while they're not mandatory, and while you
don't have to be a member of them, they draft
all the model rules for these state bars to adopt.
They put on all these coles and these conferences, and

(24:16):
they're telling the state bars what to do, and the
state bars generally just accept it. Because you know, this
is a theme that I bring out and why I
believe people like me and doctor Boden are targeted. I
believe that there's a bunch of do gooder liberals that
run these types of the bar associations and the doctor's boards.

(24:39):
It's it's these people who aren't they're not Christian Conservatives
like you know, you and me who you know, we
have families, we have church, we have all these activities
that take up our time, whereas all these you know,
childless cat lady types. And by the way, I am
a childless cat lady, but so it's not that much
of a day. But you know, these childless cat ladies, Uh,

(25:02):
they have all this free time to like run these
boards in these bars.

Speaker 6 (25:06):
And that's the type of people you've got. So they
get off.

Speaker 5 (25:10):
On these you know, little power trips, you know, these
small amounts of power. You know, it's like the HOA
association type of people who get on these local power
trips and then they put their politics into it, and
they have all the time in the world to just
go after conservatives. You know, they can't beat us substantively
in a lot of the courts because there are some
fair judges out there. So in order to defeat us,

(25:32):
they take away our licenses.

Speaker 4 (25:33):
So we can't practice, yeah, which which is which is interesting.
And again this is just me as a layperson from
the outside looking in. I think when it comes when
it comes to like the legal side of things, in
the law fare with it, within the you know, that
side of things, it seems like it is kind of
like a left right dichotomy from from that standpoint. But
when it comes to the medical side, I feel like

(25:54):
it's it's there's it's a little bit more fluid because
because you know, you're seeing you know, Republicans that are
that are a kind of supporting this or looking the
other way or not not you know, not doing anything
about this.

Speaker 6 (26:05):
Was that you know, it's uniparty.

Speaker 5 (26:08):
I mean, the supervisors that came out after me, the
Maricopa County supervisors, four of the five supervisors that filed
the bar complaining against me were Republicans, but they were
establishment rhinos. And we still have establishment rhinos as the
Americopa County supervisors right now.

Speaker 4 (26:26):
Yeah. Well, and and that was the thing about all
the election front stuff that happened, is is is everybody
kept saying like this this was it was just Democrats
and Democrats trying to stop Trump and all that and
I'm just sitting here and I'm looking I'm like a
lot of a lot of these guys that defended it,
and I would, i would say it was involved with it. Well,
you're looking Arizona, you're looking at Georgia, you look at
some of these different places. They were Republicans that that
that we're deal that we're dealing with a lot of

(26:47):
that kind of stuff as well. And I think that that,
to me, that goes to show that that I think
we have to kind of get out of this two
party mindset when it comes to a lot of these issues,
because that's not always down the line Democrat versus Republicans,
and it's more, you know, truth versus lies, it's power
versus not it's the establishment versus the people. And I
think that that's really where we've got to figure out

(27:09):
solutions to all to all of this. And I know,
doctor doctor Boden you as well. I mean you're out
there in Texas, which again we have this caricature that
Texas is this you know, conservative Republican state, but it's
much more purple than I think people realize. But like
I asked you before the show, it's like has Abbot
had done anything. Has Paxton done anything? Like, has anybody
done anything to intervene in this? Clearly you know, like

(27:32):
targeted case that you're dealing with that Again, we're dealing
with this years after the lockdowns. We're dealing with this
years after. Now we see vaccine injuries, We see that
ivermectin is safe, We see that that was all just propaganda.
Like is anybody intervening, it's stepping in and doing anything.

Speaker 7 (27:49):
Abbot is not, Paxton is not. They are both aware
of the situation I have. Senator Bob Hall has been
my theercist advocate. Representative Steve Toath also a huge advocate.
They are you know, they're they're talking to Abbot about
trying to help me. But you know, at this point,

(28:13):
it's it's too little, too late. It's been four years
of my life. It's been a quarter million dollars, and
I plan on suing the medical Board once we get
to the appeal stage for violating my due process rights.

Speaker 4 (28:29):
Yeah, which which is crazy. And again like again, you
spend a quarter of a million dollars on this law
fair just defending yourself from all these crazy accusations, and
and and I think that again this goes to like
not everybody can figure out either how to raise that
kind of money or if I have access to that,
And so you do see a lot of people that're like,
it's not it's not worth the fight. And I think

(28:49):
that that's the danger in a lot of these kinds
of tactics where you know, again, like I said before,
it's like, you know, you have one side has onlimited resources,
you have another side that has you know, finite or
and or minded resources. And this is how you know
this is another form of censorship. When you think about it,
it's like comply or else we will destroy.

Speaker 7 (29:07):
You exactly exactly, and that's luckily I have private donors
helping me going forward with my legal fees, so I
am not giving up. I feel like it's very important
that we that I fight this just for other physicians, because,

(29:27):
like you said, in most most people would cave because
it's just the easiest thing to do, and I don't
blame them. And maybe if I had realized what this
was going to take in advance, I I probably there's
a good chance I might have just caved. But I'm
glad I didn't. And now that I've come this far,
we are we are just going to take it to
the very end.

Speaker 4 (29:47):
Yeah, oh yeah, definitely. And and Rachel and you you've
been reporting obviously on law fare, you know, very very extensively. Everything,
you know, like your coverage of the John Eastan trial,
I think was was absolutely phenomenal, and I did not
see enough people talking about that case. But you know,
you know, how how extensive is this because again we're
talking about you know, the medical field here, we're talking

(30:09):
about the legal side of things, but like, how how
far does this actually go in the overall landscape.

Speaker 5 (30:17):
So when it first happened to me, you know, I
felt poor me. You know, I got singled out. I'm
you know, this lonely lawyer. You know, everybody else, all
my friends and nothing. They weren't targeted.

Speaker 6 (30:27):
It's all changed now.

Speaker 5 (30:29):
I always joke that every conservative election lawyer I know
in Arizona has either been disciplined by the bar, is
in the process of being in discipline, is being investigated.
It's it's just epidemic at this point. I mean, so
it's they're they're going and going and they're not stopping.
And there's not a whole lot that you know, Trump

(30:51):
can do to stop this. But I will tell you this.
I'm talking to both prosecutors at the DJ and I'm
also talking to people in Congress. We intend to have
congressional hearings into this, and then once the hearings are conducted,
then the DOJ can start their investigation of these corrupt
state bars.

Speaker 6 (31:10):
And I wanted to.

Speaker 5 (31:11):
Add, you know, some of the officials in Arizona are
actually really good. I'm really excited because we've got, first
of all, Representative Andy Biggs, who has championed reforming the
bar for years. You know, when he's a lawyer, and
when he was in the Arizona Senate, he was the
Senate President, he would bring up bills regularly. I mean,
his committee, I believe, was the one that I testified to.

(31:33):
So he's running for governor and if he gets elected,
you know he's going to sign bills reforming the bar.
And you know, a good friend of mine, David Schweiker,
Representative Swikert, he's now jumped into the governor's race too.
But that would actually be a good thing too, because
although Schweikert is a wonky numbers guy, he's not a lawyer.
He's helping me with a lot of this legal stuff

(31:56):
that I'm still doing behind the scenes. So and then
we have one more, the current Senate President Warren Peterson.
He's done a lot to take on the krrupt state
Arizona bar and he's told me that if he wins
attorney general, which he's running for right now, that's going
to be one of his priorities as well.

Speaker 7 (32:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (32:15):
So, and also because and again because I know you
reported extensively on the John Eastman case, can you can
you explain to people that because I you know, the
more that I dove into that and reading a lot
of your articles on that, the more just it just
shows how obvious of a tactic that this is, about
how weaponized they were to go after him in the

(32:35):
way that they did.

Speaker 6 (32:39):
So, I mean all John Eastman did.

Speaker 5 (32:41):
And you know, for those people I don't know who
he is, he's probably the premier constitutional legal scholar on
the right. His resume is over one hundred pages long.
He basically became Trump's attorney after the twenty twenty election
to help Trump look into the election wrongdoing. And he
did a couple things like he represented Trump with a

(33:04):
brief in the famous Texas versus Pennsylvania case and because
of that and stupid little things like he spoke at
the J six rally, like I think it was even
before the actual rally, he just spoke at it. Because
of that, they tried to disbar him, and they're still,
you know, trying to make it final saying that it

(33:26):
was like a crime of moral turpetitude. And you know,
that's just one of those broad, vague ethical rules that
they used to target conservative attorneys. I mean, I even
put up a website reverse Law Fair Fair extinction dot
com where I list the typical broad vague ethics rules
that they use. Like these rules sound like you're committing crimes,

(33:46):
but you're never actually given a trial in a real
court and you don't get a jury trial. So how
is the state bar able to make these into a
crime and then convict you.

Speaker 6 (33:58):
It's unreal.

Speaker 4 (33:59):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and and and again. I think I
think that's that's part of the problem when you have
a lot of this vague terminology, is you can apply
that any any which way, and they can and they
can use things against you. Again, like you said, like
you weren't actually found guilty of committing a crime, but
they can use it against you as if you were
which again to me, is a violation of due process,
which is constitutional right that each each and every one

(34:21):
of us have doctor Bunnen. From your perspective dealing with
the medical board, what what reforms do you feel like
should be implemented, because because I think for me, again
looking from the outside in it feel it feels like
there's no checks and balances. And that's the way our
founding fathers establish this countries that everything always has a
check and a balance to where you hold everybody accountable.

(34:42):
But then when you have you know, let's say, a
medical board, they kind of they don't have a lot
of those same checks and balances that I think that
we think the government can and should have. So what
are some of the reforms that you think should be implemented,
specifically with the medical boards.

Speaker 7 (34:56):
Well, we need better people on the board to begin with,
the head of the Medical Board donated eighty thousand dollars
to goethernor Greg Abbott, so it probably explains why he's
still the leader there despite what everything that's been going on.
There needs to be a time limit on this, I
mean there theoretically there are there is some sort of

(35:16):
time limit, but I don't know for me that time
limit did not apply. I'm not getting a speedy resolution
to this process. I think they should eliminate the I think,
you know, if you don't go, if the settlement hearing
isn't what you want and you want to appeal, I
think it should go straight to the judicial system and

(35:36):
just bypass the SOA the administrative court because the odds
of winning in that court are exceedingly low. That's just
the nature of the beasts. Rachel probably knows the data
on that, but I believe I heard somebody say that
only eight percent of defendants win in an administrative court.
So it's a complete waste of time and money. So

(35:58):
it'd be nice if I could have just gone straight
to the state district court. So, yeah, those are a
few things.

Speaker 6 (36:05):
I know.

Speaker 7 (36:05):
The Texas legislator had some bills trying to reign in
the medical board that did not pass, so that's part
of the problem as well.

Speaker 4 (36:13):
Yeah, definitely, And and and Rael Rachel from from your
perspective dealing with dealing with the bars, what do you
think of some of the things that should be implemented.

Speaker 5 (36:21):
So the number one thing that a bunch of us
have been pushing for years, but because it's so drastic,
I mean, we can't hardly even get these bills through.
Is to make all the state bars not mandatory and
move a lot of like the disciplinary functions out from
under the state bar under like the state Supreme Court,
because right now they're just they've just got too much power.

Speaker 6 (36:43):
And you know, we're a right to work state.

Speaker 5 (36:45):
Like in my opinion, that violates the right to work
to be forced to join what is ostensibly a union,
and so and I'm I'm more radical than that, Like,
like I don't even think you need a license to
practice law or have to go law school. I would
allow people to practice law as long as they provide
a very clear disclaimer that you know, shows because why can't.

Speaker 6 (37:08):
You be coming apprenticed.

Speaker 5 (37:10):
Why can't you, you know, go learn the law from
an attorney and then you don't have to go to
law school or or pass the bar, you know. I
think we need to open it up and instead of
this little stupid exclusive profession that locks people out, you know,
based on things like they can't afford it, or you know,
they you know, there's there's all kinds of reasons, though,

(37:32):
we just need to open up the profession.

Speaker 4 (37:34):
Yeah, yeah, well get and that that makes sense, I
think as well, because it's one of it's one of
those things where we're supposed to be a free country
last last night checked, we're theoretically supposed to be and
but but but when you look at it from from
that perspective, I get having let's say, let's say you
have a board where you can you know, you could
pass you could pass an exam, show that you understand
you know, certain aspects or legalities and and all that

(37:56):
kind of stuff. But I think putting putting the requirement
in there, to me, it should to me it should
be Okay, you have this extra certification which gives you
more credibility, but should that ban you from practicing in
that field? And you know, and I think, you know,
maybe it's a little bit different when it comes to
medical side of things, as you're dealing with people's lives,
but also again when you're dealing with like when you're

(38:18):
dealing with with freedom, there's a there's there's so many
different exemptions when it when it comes to okay, who
can practice what and make certain kinds of claims, even
within the medical industry as well, Like like I I know,
I know several people that will you know, sell them
you know, pass themselves off as doctor, doctor so and so,
even though they don't necessarily have the credentials or the
credibility to do so, because there's so many different definitions

(38:40):
of what doctor actually is. So, you know, what, what
do you think about that? Like, do you think we're
giving too much credibility to these medical boards doctor doctor
buden when it comes to who can practice what, and
then they have the authority to really you know, pull
licenses if they if they don't like what you're doing
and all that kind of stuff. What do you think
about that side of things, within the medical side of stuff.

Speaker 7 (39:01):
Yeah, I mean it'd be hard to completely eliminate the
medical boards. You know, in Texas because of tort reform,
it's very hard to sue if something goes wrong, if
your doctor does commit malpractice because the caps on the
damages are so low now that it's hard to find
an attorney willing to take the case. So your next
recourse is the medical boards. Just unfortunately, they become politicized.

(39:27):
I mean I've reported doctors to the medical board during
the pandemic and they just completely ignored my complaints. So
one was for euthanizing a patient. I reviewed a patient's chart.
I saw that the doctor ordered morphine and insulin to
a dying patient to hasten the patient's death, completely ignored.

(39:51):
I turned in a doctor for fraud who charged me
twenty one for a rapid antibody test and a charging
me a level for er visit when I didn't step
foot in the er. Completely ignored. So obviously it's just
become it's politicized. So uh, but I do think that

(40:13):
because patients don't have much recourse in the court system,
that we need the medical board to some extent for
rogue doctors.

Speaker 4 (40:21):
Yeah. Yeah, And I think and I think that that's
that's it's kind of that balancing act of figuring out,
how do you have these in place but not but
not allow them to become weaponized. And I think that
that's that's the hard part in all of this is
is that you know, like you said earlier, it's like
we can, we can get the right people in there,
but also we all we all know that the establishments
are people that have ulterior motive motivations. They'll take advantage

(40:44):
of systems to their own benefit. I mean we see
that within Congress, we see that within the justice system,
within the bureaucracies, within the boards, within all of that,
they will be used in order to push particular narratives
or put or enforce certain you know, perspectives. And I think,
you know, we really saw that a lot with I
think COVID really open up a lot of people's eyes
to what's happening in the medical industry. And then for

(41:05):
me being I have it kind of a hand on
a lot of different industries. I'm like, the same tactics
that are happening in medical are also happening in legal,
are also happening in food, are also happening in all
these different arenas. And it feels like it's the same thing.
It's the same tactic happening over and over and over again.
That's basically trying to force people to comply to the
powers that be, you know, Rachel from from the everyday

(41:28):
person standpoint, you know, like, what what do you think
that people need to be aware more about and the
what can we do as we the people to kind
of overcome a lot of this kind of stuff.

Speaker 5 (41:41):
You know, I think people don't understand how the legal
system works, Like I always hear people say, you know, why.

Speaker 6 (41:48):
Aren't they filing more election lawsuits?

Speaker 5 (41:50):
And you know, why isn't this person being prosecuted and
taken down and put behind bars? And people just don't
understand that it's a buddy buddy system. Everybody knows each other,
everybody's looking out for each other, the people in power.

Speaker 6 (42:05):
You know, you're not going.

Speaker 5 (42:07):
To get a lot of things done easily in the
legal system because the system is so corrupted, it's so broken.

Speaker 6 (42:13):
So I just get.

Speaker 5 (42:14):
Frustrated as a lawyer when I hear people demanding things like,
you know, the Epstein files is a great idea an example.
You know, I listened to Speaker Mike Johnson's press conference
this morning, and you know, he was saying the same
thing that I've been saying for months, which is that
you can't just go and release them. All the judges,

(42:35):
you know, said exactly what I was saying all along.
The judges are saying, no, we can't release this because
there's all this victim information. There's these confidential informants who
we promised privacy to. Rome wasn't built in a day,
And so everybody's blaming Trump and for not releasing the
Epstein files, but they don't understand all the legal stuff

(42:55):
going on behind the scenes.

Speaker 6 (42:57):
And you know it, if.

Speaker 5 (42:58):
It's a good judge, you know, the judge could say, hey,
let's be really careful about redacting things, and da da
da da da. But it's you don't run into you know,
honest judges. There are so many corrupt judges as well.
If they want to keep those Epstein files behind seal
to make Trump look bad, they are going to do that.
So that is part of the corruption that I wish

(43:20):
people would understand instead of just you know, oh, let's
go blame Trump. Let's go, you know, blame some Republicans. No,
the system is way more corrupt than people envision.

Speaker 4 (43:30):
Yeah, and I think I think that's a I think
that's a fair point. I think I think for me,
and this is the again, this is like kind of
like a side note. I get very frustrat because I
feel like I feel like we're being gas lit, Whereas
if they would just come out and then make that case,
I think I think a lot of this could have
been over with six months ago, specifically dealing with like
the Epstein files and all that. But I feel like
we've been gas lit by Pambondi and Cash Betel and

(43:51):
even Trump up until more recently on a lot of
these issues where all of a sudden, it just it
just feels like, Okay, so what's actually happening, Whereas the
way you planet it makes perfectly logical sense. And I
don't think that they articulated that as well as as
as I think you did as well. I think that
that's that's that's one of the problems, you know, because.

Speaker 5 (44:13):
It's because they're listening to their advisors who aren't attorneys.

Speaker 6 (44:16):
They are listening to people who are saying, oh, you
can't say that, you can't get into the legal weeds.
You're going to bore people to death.

Speaker 5 (44:22):
Or I know exactly what's going on because I talked
to people who tell me what to say, who aren't attorneys,
and I'm like, absolutely not, you know, I mean, you
have to get into the technical aspects and people just
don't want to do that.

Speaker 4 (44:35):
Yeah, no, that that makes sense now, you know, doctor,
But I kind of want to throw it back over
to you because I know you've been working very extensively
and we've been seeing some success as well and getting
ivermectin to be over over the counter, which I think
has been phenomenal again to kind of you know, it's
it's a very weird thing where it's like you have
the medical board going after you for basically a product

(44:55):
that is now going to be over the counter soon
in Texas and is over the counter in other states.
Talk a little bit about, you know, what it took
to make that actually happen, because I know that probably
had to take a lot of logistics and a lot
of conversations and a lot of you know, really changing
the system in order to make that happen to a
certain degree.

Speaker 7 (45:15):
Well, I can't take credit for it other than just
screaming about it on Twitter on a regular basis. I
actually didn't really have much to do with it. And
you know, I will say that this is a great movement,
but patients are saying that it's still difficult to get
the ivermectin, and what we really need to happen. The

(45:37):
FDA just needs to make it over the counter because
as it stands now, even these states that have these laws,
the pharmacist still has to dispense it. The patient can't
just go grab it next to the tile and all,
and you know, to simplify things. The FDA should just
make it over the counter. It's people are buying it

(45:58):
from India, they're buying it from Mexico. They're going to
the feed store. This is America. We should be able
to get medications without ordering them from overseas or using
animal forms of the medication. And the I sued the
FDA during the pandemic because they went after ivermectin and

(46:19):
they they interfered with the doctor patient relationship. When they
did that, they told everybody not to take it. They
told clinicians not to prescribe it, and that's.

Speaker 4 (46:28):
Not their role.

Speaker 7 (46:30):
So they had to remove the misinformation from their website
and from social media. But now they need to take
it a step further and educate the public about the
safety of ivermectin and make it over the counter for
all Americans.

Speaker 4 (46:46):
Yeah, which which and I think I think specifically when
with ivermectin, I think it's a perfect example though, of
how corrupt the system can be and how they've they've
set things up in order to really, you know, the
powers that we can kind of control the system. Like
when you think about it's like a doctor could prescribe
ivermectin and then a pharmacist who doesn't know you personally,
doesn't know your medical history, doesn't know what you've tried,

(47:09):
what you haven't tried, doesn't know anything, can override your
primary physician's prescription. Like, to me, that should be completely illegal.
And you know, it's like, if let's say a pharmacist
feels like, Okay, this should be prescribed to me, they shouldn't.
They shouldn't be able to withhold the medication, but maybe
write a report for further investigation in some way or
something like that. Not keep people from a prescription that

(47:31):
their doctor prescribed them.

Speaker 7 (47:34):
Well, in Texas, they're protected by the law because this
there was a law written in the spirit of the
abortion pill, so that if a pharmacist does not want
to dispense some medication, they ultimately have the final say.
But this ivermectin was an abuse of that law. This
was not an ethical decision, it was a political decision.

(47:57):
But yeah, I'd never seen anything like this. I never
had a prescription denied by a pharmacist before. It was
It was pretty crazy. We had this underground network of
pharmacies where we could send these prescriptions, and I was
scared to publicize the list because I was worried, you know,
people would go after these pharmacists. It's crazy. I mean,

(48:19):
it's such a safe drug. I mean, that was the
first thing I did, is really dive into the safety.
I wasn't even I wasn't sure it was going to work,
but I just wanted to make sure. I want to
get hurt anybody, and anybody could have done what I did.
I just went to the FDA's website and I found
the study where they were Merk submitted the data on

(48:39):
ivermectin to the FDA to get it approved, and there's
there's all sorts of toxicity data in that study. And
there's something called the lethal dose fifty and it's the
amount of medication. It's a that would kill fifty percent
of lab animals. It's a benchmark number we used to
determine how toxic a medication is. And the LD fifty
for ibermectin is about one hundred times higher than what

(49:00):
we are prescribing for covid so and then I couldn't
find any case reports and the literature over about overdoses,
either intentional overdose like suicide or accidental overdose from ivermectin
couldn't find a single report, So it's incredibly safe. It's
safer than a lot of medications that are already over

(49:20):
the counter. FDA just needs to step up and do
the right thing and correct mistakes from the past administration
and make it over the counter.

Speaker 4 (49:31):
Yeah, oh yeah, for sure. And I've had doctor up
here Corea on my show a variety of times, especially
even in the early days when he was first talking
about ivermectin, you know, extensively. But it's crazy even hearing
his story about the weaponization of the medical boards against
Tim where they I think they pulled his license and
then the only way he could practice was was by
setting up a practice on an Indian reservation and then

(49:51):
people would people to actually go see him, would actually
have to become a dual citizen of that Indian reservation
so that way they he to actually go see him
for him to be able to practice. It's just bonkers
the kind of stuff that happens. But it just goes
to show just really how corrupt the system is, and
again over something as simple and safe as ivermectin, like

(50:13):
like that, that to me is what is what's so
crazy about this? So I want to kind of you know,
close out, you know, in any final thoughts, Rachel, from
your perspective on you know, uh, you know, anything else
that maybe we didn't touch on, or you know, what
what people can and should do in order to try
to help do this is it is it calling your
state legislator to try to force them to actually do something?

(50:34):
Is like, like, what what is it that people should
be doing in order to kind of overcome a lot
of the stuff.

Speaker 5 (50:40):
Well, besides everything that I've mentioned before that we're trying
to do to combat this, I always recommend getting people
involved in state bars. You know, you don't have to
be an attorney to serve on most governing boards they
always have like a couple members of the public. We
need to take over the state bars and put in
good people into management there because that would solve the

(51:02):
whole problem.

Speaker 4 (51:03):
Yeah, that's true, doctor Boden. Any final thoughts from your
perspective or you know, you know, courses of action or
anything like that.

Speaker 7 (51:11):
Yeah, I mean, I'll echo what Rachel said about putting
good people in position Governor Abbott, holding him accountable, reaching
out to him and letting him know how you feel
about the situation. I believe in terms of elected officials
and people that you're voting for. That COVID was a
huge litmus test, and I have a list. I have

(51:31):
an organization called Americans for Health Freedom, and our foundational
project is to find politicians willing to simply state that
the COVID shots should be pulled off the market. To me,
it's a litmus test. It shows that you have courage
and you understand what's going on. So look at that
list when it comes time to vote and ask your

(51:53):
representatives to join our effort.

Speaker 6 (51:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (51:56):
Oh yeah, no, definitely. I've been interviewed a lot of
congressional candidates a lot of stuff, and it's very difficult
to find any that would that would that would actually
be willing to do that. And that's why it's so
important to have like even just like as simple as
like a list like what you have there where it's like, Okay,
look these people great litmus test. Okay, they actually believe
in freedom. So you know, I definitely commend you on that. Rachel.

(52:17):
Where can people follow you find you your writing all
that kind of stuff.

Speaker 5 (52:22):
Either go to my website Intellectual Conservative dot com. I
post everything there, or follow me on x at Rachel underscore.

Speaker 4 (52:28):
I see perfect and doctor Boden, how can how can
they get more information on you your practice, you know,
follow you, your writings, all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 7 (52:38):
So the website I just mentioned as Americans for Health
Freedom dot Org. I'm on X and substack at MD
Breathe and then I have a weekly podcast now with
Shannon Joy Wednesday's twelve thirty live on X and Rumble
and YouTube.

Speaker 4 (52:52):
Perfect sounds good, I'll have I'll have all the links
in the show notes. Guys. You guys can just click
on that. But I appreciate you guys both both coming
on and lending your expertise. This is something I think
we need to have more conversations about, and I really
appreciate both of you guys.

Speaker 6 (53:06):
Thanks for having us you on joff.

Speaker 4 (53:07):
Of course, thank you and everybody as well. Again, make
sure that you guys are following them, get more information,
get involved, you know, follow up with whatever you guys
can do in order to help affect change. Make sure
that you guys are as well going and following. You
guys can follow all of us over on Pickact, do
to pickax dot com. You guess and look up doctor Bone.
You guess and look up Rachel Alexander. You guys can
look up myself as well, follow all of us Rachel's

(53:28):
posting all of our articles over there on pickacts as well.
So make sure that you guys are doing that. And
then if you guys do want to take control of
your own healthcare, I highly encourage you guys check out
Impact health Sharing. If you guys go to Jeff Runt
dot com slash health, you guys, can you get a
free quote over there. And I'm just telling you guys,
you guys can save a lot of money by going
with health share over a for profit health insurance because

(53:51):
a lot of people don't realize when you go with
the health share it's a nonprofit organization and so there
is actually severe limits on you know, the kind of
you know, money that they can bring in, how they
can use it, what they can use it for and
all of that. And whereas a health insurance company, it's
a for profit entity, a for profit company. So if
you go with a health share, you can save a

(54:11):
lot of money. You can have a lot more control
over your own healthcare. You don't have networks, you don't
have all of that. You can decide what doctor you
want to see. You know, you know, we've had phenomenal
experience everything from you know, dealing with having a midwife
and having a home birth all the way to having
to go to the emergency room or urgent care or
lab work or going to the chiropractor or you know,
anything like that. I highly encourage you guys to go

(54:34):
check check out Impact Health Sharing. So go over to
Jeff Jornic dot com slash health. It'll take you right
there to the page. You guys can get a free quote,
see how much you guys can actually save compared to
your health insurance. And on top of that, you guys
can take control of your own health care and not
be beholden to insurance companies and all of their craziness
and systems. That again, you really control what you can

(54:55):
and can't do when it comes to your healthcare. So
make sure you guys are doing that. I appreciate everybody
tuning in. We're gonna be back on Thursday one o'clock
eastern ten o'clock Pacific time for another episode of The
Jeff Dornicks Show. But doctor Joseph sansone. Make sure that
you guys are tuning in. Then subscribe to the Jeff
Dornicks show on Rumble, follow me on Pickax. You guys
can also check out the show on Spotify and on

(55:15):
Apple Podcasts as well, so make sure you guys are
doing that. Thank you, guys so much for tuning in.
I truly truly appreciate it. We shall catch you guys
next time.