In this episode of The Jimmy Rex Show, Jimmy sits down with entrepreneur, venture capitalist, and author Jeff Burningham. Jeff has spent his career building businesses, teaching entrepreneurship, and even running for governor, but his latest project takes on one of the biggest questions of our time: how do we remain fully human in the age of artificial intelligence? Drawing from his new book, "The Last Book Written by a Human: Becoming Wise in the Age of AI", Jeff explores how AI can act as a mirror, revealing both our strengths and blind spots. He and Jimmy dive into the tension between “doing” and “being,” the role of creativity and vulnerability, and how moments of pain or burnout can push us toward deeper healing and self-awareness. This conversation also touches on spirituality, therapy, and plant medicine, showing how Jeff’s personal journey has reshaped his view of success, wisdom, and authenticity. Together, they unpack what it means to pursue presence and human connection in a world increasingly shaped by technology.
00:00 Introduction
01:28 The challenges of writing a book
06:28 Speaking about the new age of AI
08:49 AI can remind us how human we are
13:04 Why Jimmy feels negatively about AI
19:59 More optimism around AI
23:44 What the book talks about
26:12 Why Jeff wrote this book
34:39 Jeff's background and his story of life
39:16 Being obsessed with doing more
42:39 Being a bishop in the LDS church and doing plant medicine
50:10 Where to get Jeff's book
51:34 Outro
00:00 Introduction
01:28 The challenges of writing a book
06:28 Speaking about the new age of AI
08:49 AI can remind us how human we are
13:04 Why Jimmy feels negatively about AI
19:59 More optimism around AI
23:44 What the book talks about
26:12 Why Jeff wrote this book
34:39 Jeff's background and his story of life
39:16 Being obsessed with doing more
42:39 Being a bishop in the LDS church and doing plant medicine
50:10 Where to get Jeff's book
51:34 Outro
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Jimmy Rex Showing.
Today on the podcast, we sit down with Jeff Burningham.
This is a podcast I've been wanting to do for
some time.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
He is one of.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
The top entrepreneur business minds from the state of Utah,
has been for a very long time now. He's the
founder of Peak Vengers Peak Partners, a multi billion dollar
real estate conglomerate, and he also ran for governor a
couple of years back and was given it a pretty
good go. Was getting my vote if it had gone
to that. But at the end of the day, Jeff
(00:30):
is somebody that we all can learn a lot from.
In fact, he is a teacher, he has his own podcast,
teaches at the university, but just had his new book
come out and this is what he's most excited about,
and talk a lot about this on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
But it's called the Last Book.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Written by a human and we talk all things AI
and get into a little bit more about what is
to come and why the book is called that.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
So without further ado, we will get to the show.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
And before we do that, though, I want to talk
to you about bucked up supplement protein drinks. The one
I have right here is rainbow candy, and I can't
actually drink this one on the show today because it
would be my third one today. I am been drinking
these left and right. It literally is my favorite protein
to get. It's like you're drinking a refreshing drink, but
you get twenty five grands of protein for one hundred calory.
(01:13):
So pick them up anywhere bucked up products are sold. Now,
let's get to the show. Jeff, you've been.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Busy, Jimmy, I am moving and shaking. Maybe. Yeah, Releasing
a book is a lot of work.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Well, it's interesting, you know, I've had a couple of
books come out, and when you put a lot of
effort towards it, people buy it, and when you don't,
it gets really hard to sell. And you know, I
think it's such an accomplishment to really write a book,
and especially like you have with this, you know, to
put something into something with your full heart, full intent.
A calling is I know how you've described that you've
(01:53):
had some spiritual moments that led you to this. It
means a lot and I can see why. You know,
you really are adamantly wanting to share this.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Yeah, yeah, you feel if you I mean, I saw
this book as my little offering to the divine, you know.
It was just my very best efforts to try to
spread a message to humanity that I feel like very
passionate about. When the book kind of started coming through me,
(02:22):
I was scared to death about what I was writing.
And so yeah, I put my whole heart and soul
into it. That's very vulnerable. I really understand artists work,
you know. I'm a finance guy and entrepreneur and ran
for governor here in the state of Utah. That's kind
of my background. I more fully appreciate an artist life now,
where you just lay it all on the line. You
(02:43):
have no guarantee of the outcomes. And yeah, it's a
It's a vulnerable place to be, but also a good place.
And I feel I feel really happy with the with
the blood, sweat and tears I put into the work,
and I think people will feel that in the pages.
So Jimmy, I'm grateful that you acknowledge that, that you've
seen it. I don't know you're an author yourself. Yeah, yeah,
(03:05):
I've how many books of you?
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Technically, I've had four.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Two of them are kind of conglomerate books where you know,
other people helped write it, and then too that I authored.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
Wow, so what is the focus?
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Ben?
Speaker 1 (03:14):
So the first one that really that I count as
like my own book was well and my buddy he
co wrote it with me. But it's called you End
Up where You're heading, The Hidden Dangers of living a
safe life and really follows the hero's journey to use
a lot of examples for my own life and people
that I had met and just how that works, you know,
And I think so many people they just kind of
coast through a lot of life is and or like
(03:34):
when hardship does hit, they feel like this isn't supposed
to be happening, when it absolutely is. And really like
telling the story of you know, finding yourself and going
into the cave and coming back and ensuring and all
these things that you have to do. And then the
next book it's called B One. It comes from a
Marcus Earliest quote which is waste no more time arguing
what a good man should be be one And yeah,
(03:56):
and it's all about my coaching program, my men's group,
and how to be a healthy man in toxic times.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
That is that is so cool. Yeah, I think that
anyone who writes a book. I think, you know, this
is one of the blessings of AI. Hopefully it frees
us up to lean into our artistry more of us,
you know, I think everyone has a book in them
or has a piece of art to offer to the world,
but we oftentimes don't take time to do it. It
(04:22):
takes a lot. And as you know, having written books,
you know, whether I sell ten thousand copies or ten
million copies, I already feel like a you know, quote
unquote winter because I've been transformed in the process. I've
been changed. It sounds like that was your experience as well.
So yeah, it's it's been a fun, transformative process. And
(04:45):
I mean launch day is tomorrow. Literally like this will
be I think the last podcast I do before it
hits tomorrow. So yeah, it's happening amazing.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Well, it's you know, I always tell people whether it's
starting a podcast, I'm amost eight hundred episodes in now
to give you an idea, and so are doing a book.
You know you have to take on I think the
true artists this is how they think you have to
do it. Assuming if nobody reads this and nobody buys this,
and I don't get a single person that compliments me
on this or anything, I'll still be glad I wrote it.
I think that's how artists, true artists work. That's why
(05:15):
a lot of them end up broke, and they just
don't care. It's like they just want to pour into
this thing and they're not attached to the outcome as
much as the process of creating it.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
Absolutely. Like you know, I often tell I've since losing
the governor race in twenty twenty, I've been an adjunct
professor of entrepreneurship at BYU, and I've had thousands of
entrepreneurship students, and I often tell them that, you know,
the most simple ideas are often the most powerful and
(05:45):
therefore the most neglected. So the point is, the joy
is in the journey, is what you just said. Now,
these are cliches, these are simple ideas, but there's truth
in them, and you're right. The joy is in the process.
It is in the journey. I think you can apply
this to life. The joy is in the process and
the journey. It's not in some outcome. Necessarily, we're not,
(06:08):
especially as embodied beings here on the earth, We're not
in control of outcomes. And the more that we can
actually live that. I think the more piece that we
can have. And I think that's you know, analogous to
the situation that humanity finds itself in here in the
age of AI.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Well, it's funny that you said. I was going to
say the same thing. It's like part of the problem
I have with AI. I'm a big anti AI. We'll
start there and we'll get into it. But well it's
I mean, they're obsessed with the outcome as opposed to
the process to get you to the outcome, right, And
I think a lot of people want to outsource.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
It's one thing to outsource, you know, searching.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Sure, like when I was little, we were pulling out
Encyclopedia and then Google came along and obviously with AI,
now that's an amazing thing to get answers, is that,
But you're also are outsourcing a little bit of the
you know, coming up with the answer, but like the
creativity part, And that's where I go with that. Like,
there's I have multiple people I've texted in the last
six months and I know, damn well when I got
(07:05):
the text back that they ran it through an AI
to get a better response to it. Oh yeah, Like
I mean, I'm having some conversations as a girl I've been dating.
We had we had conversated for almost a year on text.
All of a sudden, I get this response. I'm like,
the hell is this?
Speaker 2 (07:19):
You know.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
You have to ask, I said, text me when you
want to give me I said, you either just talk
to a life coach or that was Chad GPT.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
If you want to give me a real response, I'll respond,
you know.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
But and that seems like a lot of work, Like
I've never even considered like they just know.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
They literally just run the text conversation and say, please
give me a give me the best response, yeah yeah,
or give me an empathetic response, give me a witty
response or whatever.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
And this is happening more and more, and.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
So it's people outsourcing their own thoughts, their own feelings,
and it's like, that's not real. And that's where I
start running into, you know, where you miss out on
the process of coming up with something, like there's no
greater joy than coming up with.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
A great joke on your own. That's you can tell
the world's greatest joke, But if.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
You googled it, it's not that cool. Like if you
come up with a hilarious line. You're like, oh my gosh,
remember when you said this, amen? And that's you know
that to me is the It's like AI steals a
lot of the joy of the process of it all.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
Well, what I hope you know. I talk about in
the book about AI being a crucible that humanity is
going through together like here in the next decade and
two and whatever. And this crucible can either turn us
back to ourselves, make us more human I talk about
rehumanizing ourselves in the book, or it's going to take
(08:37):
some ugly turns, I'm afraid, and it definitely will take
I think we've already seen with social media. It will
take some ugly turns until we work it out. But
I hope in the end, what AI does is remind
us of the beauty of being human, the beauty in
the messiness of real human relationship. You're right when we
(08:59):
outsource our humor or even maybe our empathy to a
machine that can't really feel empathy. I mean, there's joy
in being embodied and feeling. In fact, you could you
could argue that we are here to feel like what
we will remember on our deathbed and what we will
(09:20):
take with us potentially is what we have felt. Yes,
it's that oh quote, you know, you never you always
forget what someone says, but you never forget about how
they make you feel. And if we've quote unquote outsource,
it's impossible.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
To do that.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
But our feeling, what are we left with? What have
we become? And so, yeah, this is an interesting era
that we're entering. And I think I have an interesting
perspective based on a lot of life experience as a
venture capitalist, as a gubernatorial candidate, as a as a
Mormon bishop, as a father, you know, like all these
(09:57):
things that I'm bringing to the table and saying, and hey,
as our machines become more and more intelligent, we as
humans must become more wise. I mean that's the thesis
of the book in one sentence.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Yeah, it's a great thesis.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
I guess I would I want to hear more about.
I just I'm so pessimistic about it, I really am.
I think, well, long for the days before we had AI.
And the reason why you said it yourself, it's like, well,
help us become more human, But every technology you could
argue has helped us be less human. And you know,
and we spend less time with each other, less time
and true connection.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
And it's funny.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
I'm talking about digital technology.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Well, I'm talking.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
About the digital creates the environment where we don't do
the in person as much. So it's like I don't
need to go visit that person because you know, I
can just text him or call them, or I'll see
what he's doing on Instagram or whatever else, and so
I don't know, I you know, I'm building businesses. What
I'm focusing on is things where it absolutely requires people
to get together. Because that, I think is going to
be a huge market. People are going to long for
(11:00):
that more than ever before. And maybe that's what you're
referring to, is like, because we've been detached a little
bit more, we will long for those connections more than ever.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
I think so like I think it turns us back
to ourselves. I think that those in real life experiences,
whether you like, you know, it's interesting I talk about
religious reform in the book, and my question for religions is,
in an age of highly intelligent machines, where humans are
spending more and more time with machines, what special belief
(11:30):
or practice should really get in the way of human
connection and community. And my answer is basically none, as
long as obviously there's not a human in the congregation
or in the you know, in the community that is
maliciously doing harm. Of course you need to protect yourself
from that. But besides that, come in, brother, come in sister,
(11:50):
like we need humans to congregate and be together. So
whether you love you know, whether it's so, I encourage
people actually go back to your faith tradition, meaning lean
into the community and connection that can be felt there.
That's just one example. But you might love running, you know,
you might love mountain biking. I mean, whatever it is
you love to do in real life, lean into that.
(12:13):
We're going to have to fight for that. That's something
we need to hold onto. And again, I think that
AI can turn us back to our humanity. I mean,
this is my hope. I totally understand like your negative outlook.
And by the way, I'm not even saying that I'm
and I want to ask you a question real quick
if I can't, I'm not even saying that I maybe
don't hold some of those same beliefs or thoughts. However, Jimmy,
(12:38):
AI is going to happen. So like it's going to happen.
We can't stop it. You like, that's that's it's going
to happen. So it's funny. I've been on a couple
of podcasts of like, we would it be best to
just pull the plug? And I said, maybe, yeah, if
we could, but we.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Can well because because it can be used for weaponry.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Every country is racing as quickly as possible and because
of that, nobody wants to slow it, and nobody's going
to slow down it's coming.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
Like, so, so, what then, is the benefit of your
kind of negative outlook on it. I get how it's
you know, against your kind of core beliefs and against
maybe your business model, et cetera, et cetera. Or it
could be I think it's going to cause your business
to flourish, obviously, Like I said, but what is the
benefit to being like negative about I'm curious?
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think there's I think there's a
This happened with COVID a little bit. It's you know,
it's one of those things where we're like, maybe I
can make this situation better if I can wake people
up to the thing they're not seeing. You know, with COVID,
it was like, wait, guys, wait, do not wear the
mask that is the first step in the escalation ladder.
They're trying to take away with rights and freedoms that
you're not going to get back. And so I got
(13:44):
loud and you know, and I caused a stir and
like the vaccine thing and everything else, and I was
just really outspoken, and it was like, why did I
care so much?
Speaker 2 (13:51):
And it's for me.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
It's like, well, if I can tell enough people, and
I think that my voice carries some way, it just
tends to people, you know, like listening to my podcast,
and I've had some successes. Well, then I say, you know,
if I can turn enough people's attention to it, then
maybe we can change the outcome a little bit. Maybe
it's just completely naive, but also maybe I don't know.
Maybe just as humans, we are designed to look for
(14:13):
the thing that's going to hurt us, right or the
thing where danger is, And so maybe I just have
attention fixated it. But I'm also going to say, you
might not be wrong. Maybe I need to just quit
worrying about the damn thing, because well, I don't.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
Think it's quit worrying, but I think it's lean in
and Jimmy, you have a voice you just said it.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
All of us do.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
By the way, Yours may be bigger than others, but
we all have a voice. And my call to humanity
via this book, the last book written by a human
becoming wise in the Age of AI. That is the
name of the book. My call is to lean in
with your best self here because we can't stop it.
It's going to happen. And what I argue in the
(14:49):
book is that AI is a cosmic mirror to humanity.
Talk about that, well, think of it, Jimmy, Like, AI
just takes all of human data and recorded history and
then how you interact with it, you know, Jimmy does,
Jeff does, your girlfriend does? You know? Like whatever, and
(15:10):
then just reflex it back to us. So it's a reflection.
And as we you know, a reflection can be a
scary thing. You know, I'm forty eight years old. It
hasn't been to like the last year or two where
I wake up and look in the mirror and I'm like,
who and the hell is this guy?
Speaker 1 (15:27):
You know?
Speaker 3 (15:28):
Like, you know, I'm getting older. It's what happens. So
it can be a scary thing to look at a reflection. Honestly,
I think we're going to see ourselves more clearly and
therefore have the opportunity to change or not. Now it
will be our choice individually and collectively. Humanity is going
(15:49):
to have a chance to take a different path or
to continue down the same path. One of the core
concepts in the book that I talk about is the
old game versus the new game. If we continue to
double and triple and quadruple down on this old game
of division, fear, and greed, you add the godlike technology
(16:12):
of AI on top of that, and that is not
a good outcome for our children and grandchildren and maybe us. However,
there's another there's another game that can be played here.
There's a deeper reality than the illusory division that we
see between ourselves most often conservative, liberal, white, black, rich, poor,
(16:35):
you know, atheist, latter day saying, you know, Christian whatever.
Whatever these divisions are. Those divisions exist for diversity and beauty,
and they add diversity and beauty in the world. However,
they're not the fundamental basis of reality in my opinion,
and if we can come to a better understanding of this,
(16:59):
I'd say divine unity that unites us, we can play
a new game where we lean into that where instead
of cash being the currency, karma is the currency. Instead
of power being the motivation, authenticity is the motivation, and
(17:22):
instead of control being the reason, love is the reason.
So there's a whole game that we can play differently here.
The greatest teachers and masters quote unquote throughout history have
tried to remind us of that game. They've tried to
lead us down a path that continues up to the
modern day. I think the question is are we going
(17:43):
to hear it, to hear the call before it's too late,
or is humanity I'm speaking in general, going to heed
this call, going to follow this new path, a new game,
or do we continue down the old game? And like
I said, especially with AI, I don't think it ends
in the in the best way. This is my opinion.
We're getting kind of weird and MoU wo on here,
(18:03):
but no, and I think it is the crux of
the book.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
No, that's why this is exactly what I wanted to
talk about with this. And you know, it's interesting. But
for me, I guess the reason why I maybe have
a little bit more of a pessimistic because by the way,
I actually I'm not afraid of dying I'm not afraid
of like chaos.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
I thrive in chaos.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
I was my nervous system is grew up in a
chaotic household and it just is ready for that kind
of stuff like that's when I do my best.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
You eat chaos for breakfast?
Speaker 2 (18:27):
No, but it just I'm just very comfortable with it.
I really am.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
And so it's similar, yeah, and so it just doesn't
I'm not afraid of all that. I'm over here, like
you know, but people are like you know, they destroy,
will you know a rebuilder?
Speaker 2 (18:38):
I'm like, no, thanks, like I take me out with you.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
But at the end of the day, I just all
the people that have the ability to control all this.
I have seen so few signs from any of the
people that really have the power control that they're going
to do this in an altruistic way, like it's all
about greed and power for these people in control.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
And it has been for some time. And that's the
part where I'm.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
Like, amen, good luck, I hear you, I believe you.
I know, well, good luck. But it's the work we
were built to do. It's the work we must do.
And I'm talking about let's say I'm taking an eternal perspective,
the long arc of history. This is the work that
we were built to do. Our leaders, by the way,
let me just say one point to this are a
(19:19):
reflection of us. So as soon as enough of humanity
won't stand for whatever political whatever or CEO is doing whatever,
they will change. Yeah, it will change now. Hopefully it
can happen peacefully and beautifully here. I'm not saying that
will totally be the case, but we need a revolution
(19:41):
in my opinion, I mean, this is the way that
we transform. And so I hear you with the leadership,
I understand the pessimism. Believe me, my heart aches with
like the pain of it all. But pain is what
humanity often needs to change.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
When you said something in this this is where I'm
very optimistic, And this is where I'm excited about all
this because I know I'm like pessimistic about where it's talking,
but I'm also like super optimistic. And it's kind of
exciting for me because this is like the real age
of awakening. So because there's so much information, because AI can,
you know, get it all together so quickly, more and more,
you know, the messages are being delivered, I mean, like
(20:21):
people are being exposed things are being exposed. In the past,
it was like the history books were written. I don't
believe anything that those things hold, like the look at
how they skew the news today, and that's with it
right in front of us. Like I guarantee you history
is not what we thought it was. But what's kind
of fun with AI and with technology and all this
is it's exposing it. And you know, and those breaks
(20:43):
are interesting to me. They're fascinating to me. And more
and more people seem to be waking up every day
to what's going on. And I don't know what that
leads to, but it is going to be interesting if
nothing else. We do not live in a boring time.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
Amen.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
There is a.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Million things going on right now and our poor brains
were probably never suppose to think about all.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
This at once. But it's fun. It's fun to be
a part of it.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
It's a you know, it's when I refuse the bitch
about the world because it's like I was sitting at
my pool two days ago, just like just chilling and
having a drink and hanging out, and I'm just sitting
there looking at the mountain and the sun and everything,
and I'm just like what am I talking about? Like
in the history of humanity that you know, the number
of people that have been able to just feel and
(21:24):
be this like in this situation is so few. And
I'm just like this, you know, it's just beautiful. And
so it's like wherever it goes next, let's roll the dice,
let's go.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
But I just hope it.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
I hope the right people control a lot of where
this ends up.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
Yeah, well, again, our leaders are a reflection of us.
So we need to elect people that we believe in
and reflect our values and morals. We need to promote
people within businesses that we think will focus on human
flourishing and not human division and destructs.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
Let me tell you here. So I got a couple
thities on this. So this is where h and he
took a turn for the worse. Okay, and yeah, I
want your take because you were in this world. This
is your world. I think that humanity has a real
problem when none of the impaths or the people that
really care about people are the ones in charge because
it's all about analyticals and drivers. These guys that have
the business wherewith and they're just have the analytical minds.
(22:17):
A lot of these technology guys and all of them,
they don't have that gene that's like empathy first, Like
they don't care about humans the way the nurses do
when the school teachers do. And unfortunately, all the money
and power has flown to those people, and so you
have this real problem with just the type of people.
Like back in the day, you still had empaths getting
into positions of power. I mean, you tried to get
(22:38):
into a position of power, and look how the game
was rigged against you. You ran for that governor race
no offense, but like and you were very wealthy, you
had name recognition, you did a good job, and you
still couldn't get close to the guy that was there
because and.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
They kind of rigged it. Like, if we're going to
be honest, he rigged it so that you couldn't get there.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, No, it's true. I think there's a
lot of truth to what you say. Talk about you know,
tribal times back in the day, where leaders were partially
chosen based on their experience with the divine and their
understanding of who we really are and what reality actually is.
(23:18):
And we have gone far away from that, like you
just said, and we have suffered for it, So will
humanity shift back. I think that there is a new
brand of leaders being raised up. I think that, you know,
I think that there are new leaders being prepared, and
it will be up to us to recognize them and
then to choose them. I think there's a lot of
(23:41):
truth in what you said, and I lightly touch on
this in the book. You know, the book follows four sections,
and it's kind of the technology. As an early investor
in hundreds of tech companies, I've seen this hundreds of
times world and it also kind of mirrors our spiritual
or existential journey. So the first sections disruption. Change is
(24:02):
the only constant we are being disrupted right now. There's
a period of reflection which I think we're beginning to
enter where we say, wait a second, what is AI
and what does this mean?
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Now?
Speaker 3 (24:14):
The stress in this part is it's happening very quickly,
but let's skip to that. After we reflect, we can
lean into, like what you said, the heroic journey that
we're being called on individually and collectively as a body
of humanity. And that's when the third section is called transformation.
That's when we begin to transform to become something more,
(24:37):
something greater than we maybe have ever become before. Lastly
is evolution, and this was the point to the last
section is about evolution, and it's mainly focused on evolving
the institutions that have largely controlled and been in power
for so many times. So I talk about reforming religion,
I talk about education, I talk about conscious capitalism. I
(24:59):
talk about out a new political movement that I called
the human political movement. This is the kind of massive
transformation that I think we are in for in the
upcoming decades. And I think it's the kind of transformation
that we need to embrace if we want to ensure
that this technology helps more people flourish, if we don't,
(25:23):
if we want to consolidate the power, if we want
to be greedy with AI. One thing I say in
the book is whereas in most markets there's like competition
and there's some winners and some losers, if AI is
concentrated in the hands of a cup a few, it's
not some winners and losers. We all lose. All of
(25:45):
humanity loses. So it's time to wake up. You said awakening.
It is time to wake up. That feels to be
like it's in the culture now it's I would say
it's in the stars, like we're feeling this awakening more
and more broadly occur. And I think that's for a reason,
and I think it's time for that to accelerate. I
(26:07):
think that has to accelerate in the age of AI.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
Why do you think you were chosen to write this book?
What do you think it was important that you wrote it?
Speaker 3 (26:17):
That's a good question, and you know, I'll be honest,
I do feel like chosen. I'm not trying to say
that I'm special. I'm just like everyone else. But I
absolutely feel chosen. I would have never chosen myself to
write this book. Are you kidding me? Like? I should
just be living the life and join life. You know,
(26:39):
I have a beautiful family, soulmate Sally, and four kids.
I'm a grandpa, I have a one year old grandson.
Like you said, don't I don't have to work, per se.
I should just be living the good life. I feel
like I absolutely had to write this book. And if
I were to give two answers, this isn't something I've
(26:59):
thought about a lot, But I'll give you two ideas
or thoughts. Maybe the listeners will think are interesting or
chew on number one, I think I have a really
interesting background of experience. I don't know another forty eight
year old that has the very type of experience that
I have. This goes from business to politics, to religion,
(27:24):
to you know, psychedelics, to whatever comes next, you know,
like to technology, to all of these things. It's just
a very rich and varied background. I'm so fortunate for that.
I acknowledge my privilege in that I'm grateful for it.
But so I would say that the second thing I
would say now, which I wouldn't have said, you know,
(27:45):
five years ago or so. You know, I think there's
karmic reasons for why we are where we are, how
we're placed, where we're placed, you know, the bodies we
may be in, the families that we may find ourselves
in the circumstances. And so I know that's a little
more ethereal and spiritual and woo woo. But I would
(28:06):
just have to believe it's felt karmic to me the
work that I'm doing now, in terms of releasing this book,
writing it, et cetera. It's felt like there's a karmic
element to what is happening here. There's my best two No.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
A follow up question that would be why.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
I mean, there's so much information on AI right now,
what's something we can learn from the book give us
a little preview, something we can learn in the book
about Ai that maybe we're not getting somewhere else.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
Well, again, this book, I'll say two overarching things. Number One,
this book is the Bowld case for Ai. And now
I'm not an idiot. I haven't stuck my head in
the sand, and I've certainly been through enough pain to
realize we're in for a lot more pain. Pain, like
I said, is what we often need as humans to
(28:51):
really change and transform. I'm not saying this is going
to be follow the Yellow Bok road and we all
end up in a great place. There's going to be
a lot of pain that kind of gets us there.
And so this was a spiritual look, a high level
look at AI. I don't talk about like how to
(29:13):
write the best prompt, how to make more money, how
to become more efficient. This is a stop and pause.
This book was written as a conversation starter that could
lead to a human movement, and it was to say,
who WHOA WHOA? Wait up, why is Ai here? Why
do we feel strangely attracted to it but absolutely fearful
(29:37):
of it. How can AI help us lean into this
divine desk to need this heroic journey that we're all
going through together. So really the book is like seventy
five percent human nature and twenty five percent AI because
and this might be something. I don't think AI is
(29:59):
a technology. It's not a technology problem. It's a human problem.
So if AI is a reflection of us, what do
we need to become, what do we need to bring
to its development?
Speaker 1 (30:12):
Well, and I like you talked about that a little
bit earlier, you said about the whole mirror thing, and
I wanted to touch more on that because it is interesting,
whether it's psychedelics or maybe it's a spiritual experience through
fasting and prayer or something like that, when information comes
to us. I know in my own examples of this
with psychedelics and other things, it's like it shows you
(30:32):
where you need to improve, what your problems are, what
your bullshit is.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
But all it is is an awareness.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
And I think what you're saying is one of the
things AI might be able to gift us is because
it's a mirror, it can show us without the need
of going on these crucibles and crazy experiences. It will
show us more in real time where our blind spots are,
and then we get to you still, just like if
you go do ayahuasca, you come back, you still got
to deal with it.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
You still got to figure out what you want to
do with the information you got. Thing with this in.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
AI and maybe the awareness of it. I know, you know,
Stephen Arcovey talks about, you know, the four quadrants of
like being unaware, unaware that you're unaware, aware that you're unaware,
and then aware that you're aware or whatever. But and
I think maybe is this kind of what you're saying,
is it gives you more of that loop of feedback
and so you're able to course correct more quickly.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:23):
Absolutely. I kind of talk in the beginning of the
book about my little climbing, my little mountain of success.
I march up this mountain, you know what I mean.
And I get up there and I say that there's
nothing there but a cold, howling wind. There's just void,
nothing different than in the Valley of the Shadow of Death,
(31:45):
nothing different than your march along the top. So what
are you left to do then? When you've kind of
achieved everything you thought you were achieved. You have everything
you thought you wanted, and you still have work to do.
You're still not at peace. So there's nothing to do
but to climb back down the mountain, pick up the
(32:06):
tattered pieces of a little bit of a broken life.
Even if you did it all in, I did it
with a full heart and with good intent everything I've done,
but the pace that I was keeping there was shrapnel
and damage. You know, just because the pace was unearthed,
we leave awake. So you pick up those pieces and
(32:28):
you realize, Jimmy, that what you're looking for is not
outside of you. There's nothing that we're looking for as
humans external to us. Now we all go for external validation,
we go for external rewards, we go for you know,
acquisition of things or whatever. But that's not going to
(32:50):
soften the pain, soften the reality of what we're experiencing here.
The only way that that can happen is for going inside.
So I think that AI will force more and more
of us to go inside, to deal with our own pain,
to deal with our own trauma, to deal with our
own to use bullshit, to use your term, and to
(33:14):
go through that work. And it's in that work that
we can transform. And as one person transforms, I believe
that we're all connected that ripples through. So you have
you know, hundreds thousands, millions of people transforming, and I
think that this can happen so well.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
To add something to that, I think one of the
problems we have with we've had with modern world, you know,
up until the last maybe fifteen years or so, like
people didn't even want to look at their problems.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
They didn't want to deal with anything.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
And now that we're looking at it, but the tools
aren't great, we can see this to help people deal
with this stuff. So maybe AI is the handswer and
maybe that's how people feel safe enough to be able
to truly go into some of these dark places and
be able to you know, excavate some of the things
that are, you know, causing them all their pain and hurt.
Speaker 3 (33:59):
Well, what I say is that people don't look inside
until they're in enough pain. And when the pain because
you can numb or distract pretty easily. You can numb,
you can distract, you can yeah, whatever, you can pretend
he guy is going to cut that stuff out. I
think it's going to cause enough pain that a lot
(34:20):
of people are going to look inside and to do
their own work. I was addicted to doing so here's same. Yeah,
I was addicted to do it.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
I never, once in my life had to be motivated
to do more.
Speaker 3 (34:31):
It was like, it was ridiculous. Like I tell this,
I don't know if you want to go long form here,
I can tell a story from the book is pretty funny.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
Yeah, dude.
Speaker 3 (34:39):
I was running a multi billion dollar private equity firm,
investing one hundred million dollars in venture capital, A young
a father of four, serving very actively in my church
as a bishop and other things, and for some reason
I decided that I needed to add MBA to my resume. Ridiculous.
(35:01):
So the only time I could do that, obviously, it
was late nights and weekends. And as I look back now,
I was like, what in the world was I thinking? Well,
I know exactly what I was thinking. I thought that
you could always do more to be more. But here's
what taught me you couldn't. This is when it began.
I was seeing a leadership class in my MBA school
(35:22):
and the professor said, think, I want everyone to think
of the most motivating thing to you right now. What
is motivating you. I've always been a big dreamer. I've
always been a builder, a doer. So I was like, oh, yeah,
this is my thing. I'm excited. I sit there and
I'm blank and empty. The other my colleagues around me
start working and typing and having ideas. Jimmy, I see nothing.
(35:47):
Finally two things come to me need two visions of
what's motivating me, neither of which I'm proud of, the
second one of which sent me to my first therapy
session of my life. The first one were similar. Ages
was like a wild party scene. It's like I say
in the book, it was like a mashup between Yo
(36:09):
MTV raps and a Badass Cribs episode, you know from
the eighties and nineties.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
And it was this.
Speaker 3 (36:15):
Wild party scene substances, you know, like very very little clothing.
It was just like pure freedom, and I knew that
I was seeking, like freedom and release. I knew in
the end that wild party scene would end in a downer,
it wouldn't last, and I knew it would be empty
(36:37):
in the end. And it was very I mean, I
was a very devout Latter day Saint Mormon, and like
I'd never even tasted coffee and tea, let alone alcohol
and drugs. So like that was one thing. The second one, though,
was even more scary. I saw myself close up my laptop,
pick up my bag, put my laptop in my back drive,
(37:00):
fifteen minutes to the Salt Lake City Airport and buy
a one way ticket to the furthest imaginable place on Earth,
and disappearing, disappearing from it all, from my soulmate, Sally,
my four beautiful children, all my business partners, my investors,
like this financial empire that I'd built, just leaving everything behind.
(37:26):
So I go to my first therapist and I parse
out with him that my doing had eroded my being.
We are not human doings, Jimmy. We have become more
and more of that, and AI will push us or
could push us in that direction. However, let me just
finish this thought. What we need to return to is
our being. And I think that's what this era will
(37:49):
call for, for each one of us to go back
to our being, to lean into our human beingness, and
that will be a massive blessing if we embrace that.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
No, and that's powerful and I believe this. And it's
funny because I have been talking about I run this
men's group, and people always I've been talking about what
I'm going to do next a little bit and people
they always say like, what are you going to do next?
And I say, I'm I don't know when I'm going
to be done doing this, but I'm going to take
a year and do nothing. Because it's not about what
I do next. I'm going to It will be the
(38:23):
challenge of my life to do nothing, but I'm going
to do it. I'm going to force myself to take
at least one year at a minimum and do nothing.
And because I started about two years ago going into
the woods once a week and just sitting for an
hour or two, no phone, nothing and just allowing myself
to be right and it's cool. It took me hard
years before I could meditate for twenty minutes. Now I
can do it every day. And so it's like I've
(38:45):
really had to work to destroy this culture that we
have in America of like doing more is better, that's
what everybody thinks.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
It's like, what's the first question people ask you when
you meet them? What do you do?
Speaker 3 (38:55):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (38:56):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
I saw this free great video the other day. I
was like, the dude said he said, what do I do? Oh,
I go biking. I go hiking and I like to fish.
And the guy's like, no, no, I mean like, what do
you do for work? He goes, oh, you want to
know what I do to make money? No, I'm not
going to talk about that.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
I thought that was such a good line, you know.
I was like, well said, but we are. We're obsessed
with this idea that you have to do more. And
I was too.
Speaker 1 (39:21):
I always thought like, well, you know, it's we have
our wins from our childhood. If we want to be
accepted by our parents, if we do well, we do more,
we do good, We you know, stay out of their way.
All these things that we're going to you know, they're
going to be happier with us. And so I think
unfortunately we're taught that we're rewarded by doing. But like
you're said, the advantage that you have Jeff, and I
(39:42):
think I've been able to experience this as well, is
you do kind of get to the top of a
place and you're like, oh shit, you use the word void.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
You know.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
I for years, my only goal is to be the
number one real turn in Utah.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
In twenty eighteen, I hit it. I sold almost five
hundred homes.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
I sold the most expensive home ever in Utah, thirty
two and a half a million dollars.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
I was number one in Utah that year in.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
Commissioner, and I was like, seriously, how did you feel
It's normal?
Speaker 2 (40:06):
It was like nothing. It was like nothing change question
zero and all it did? You know what the what
it did do?
Speaker 1 (40:12):
And this happened in a plant medicine journey is it
came clear todays me is like you need to do
something else, like you're done with this and this is
as good.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
As this is ever going to get. And I was like, oh,
I don't like that. And because it was it was
like what else are you going to do? You know?
And so it's like I could.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
Just keep making money for the rest of my life,
but for what Like once you have things, I was
already doing what I wanted, had what I wanted. I'm
not I don't like expensive things. So it's just everything
was already there. And so it was like, okay, well,
what can I you know, give more to this universe too,
And you've had that advantage and I think it's one
of the reasons why you were called to write this book,
because until you've had those things, until you've been to
(40:48):
the top of that mountain, it's really hard to talk
about the experience at the top of the mountain. But
if you did get there and which you have, like
with your success, with you know, all these different things
that everybody spends their whole life trying to get to,
then you can get new perspectives and go, oh, I
was running up the wrong I had my ladder against
the wrong wall. I was running up the wrong hill
(41:08):
the whole time, and all of a sudden you realize
that maybe I need to do a little bit lessious
exactly what you said, or maybe it's not about doing
anything at all, it's about just how I'm showing up
and being present in the moments.
Speaker 3 (41:18):
Well, again, the most simple ideas are often the most
powerful and therefore the most neglected. And here is one.
If I do more, I can be more or I
am more. That's not true, like doing is not where
our worth comes.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
It's one of the advantages of technology and AI is
it gets rid of a lot of the bullshit doing.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
Yeah, the farm work and the assembly lines.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
And I get what you're saying on that, because that
is that's just doing for the sake of doing. That's
just because we need a bullshit thing that needs to
get made or needs to get farmed or cropped or whatever.
And if you can get rid of that in a
higher capacity, which is I think what you're saying with Ai,
I'm starting to see your vision a little bit.
Speaker 2 (42:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
Yeah, at least gives me some hope that I didn't
have before a conversation.
Speaker 3 (42:07):
Well, we have time to be and we have time
to sit with ourselves and to realize that what we're
really looking for is already inside of us, and there
is nothing that we could really do that would quote
unquote add to our worth. We already are everything.
Speaker 1 (42:25):
I always say, God can't love us more or lesson
he does, So what do you want to do? Like
he can't love you more, I can't love you less,
So quit trying to earn something that you don't have.
Speaker 3 (42:35):
To know the merit badges.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
Yeah, I was going to ask.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
You about that from a spiritual side. You said you're
a bishop, and then you threw in psychedelics. You're the
second bishop I've had on Then that's done, psychedelics. I
had a bishop a couple years ago that win did
ayahuasca while he was an active bishop.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
I was going to ask.
Speaker 1 (42:51):
You, what was your experience both is personally with that,
and how did you reconcile those different feelings and did
it strengthen your testimony I guess of the LDS Church.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
And was there any pushback to you being public about that?
Speaker 3 (43:05):
Absolutely, I'm scared to death to talk about this. Absolutely.
I mean, scared to death is too strong. I shouldn't
overstate it. I was scared to death. I'm not now today,
but I was. Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (43:18):
Let me tell you the story, just real quick, kind
of how it happened for me. And this is just
for me, and all the caveats that these are very
the plants are powerful. You need to do it wisely,
you need to do it maturely. This is in my experience.
Speaker 1 (43:31):
Actually stopped advocating for it because it can go wrong
for people.
Speaker 3 (43:35):
Absolutely. Yeah, but let me tell you my experience, and
this is just my one person experience. I lose the
gubernatorial race into the summer of twenty twenty. Another thing
that I've told my students a BYU is with time
and space, anything can be created. And just to be
honest with you, I had never had time and space.
(43:55):
In my entire adult life until the summer of twenty twenty,
served a mission, got married, had kids, started businesses, became
a bishop. You know, like, I had no time in space.
But the summer of twenty twenty, I have time and space.
So I dive back into the work that i'd missed,
venture capital, work, technology. I ran a statewide campaign for
(44:16):
eighteen months, so that's an eternity in technology. So I
had a lot to catch up on, and a lot
of technologies bubbled to the surface, one of which, obviously
the most important, was AI, and I was immediately attracted
to Oh, not like how can I invest in AI
and make money, but more like, oh, wow, what is
this going to mean existentially for humans and for us
(44:37):
understanding ourselves. Another thing that kept popping up, and I
think it was because of the mental health crisis that
the world was in during COVID, was psychedelics. So of
course I had heard of these things. I knew tangentially
about them. I never even considered, you know, anything about him,
But I started doing research, and I did research for
(44:59):
inn entire year. And the only way I can explain
to you, Jimmy, I don't know what your experience is
and again I gave all the necessary caveats and blah
blah blah. Yeah I again, I had never tasted coffee
or tea the first I guess substance. It's a plant.
By the way, It's literally just a big mushroom, a
big penis m v mushroom. I'm glad I did not
(45:20):
know the name of that strain until after I had
ingested it. I felt commanded, like that's the best Mormon
way to put it. I felt like commanded to eat this,
and I felt another. I felt damned, meaning stuck if
I did not. And I grappled with this for you know,
(45:40):
it built over a year. But I did research for
a full year until I could just not not do it,
Like I felt convicted that I needed to do it.
Speaker 2 (45:51):
So I did an act of bishop.
Speaker 3 (45:53):
At the time, no, no, no no, I was a
bishop many years ago. No no no, But I was
an active member of the church. I still am. I
going to church on Sunday. You know, I have kids
at BYU and serving missions and all the things. So anyways,
that was my experience. I used it very responsibly. I
had an unbelievable first experience I write about it in
(46:14):
the book. Check it out. But and for me, you
can't see quote unquote behind the veil. You can't unsee
what you've seen. You can't unfeel what you've felt. So
once you've had that experience, you either acknowledge that experience
it has to count for something, and you adjust your
(46:37):
behavior in positive ways based on your experience, or like
other experiences, you push it down, you deny it, you
shove it down, you say you know that wasn't real.
What I end up saying in this chapter that I
write about my first mushroom journey is I say that
in my experience, psychedelics don't create an illusion, they reveal
(46:59):
the illusion. And so that was kind of the first step.
And I talk about my first actually ayahuasca experience in
the book as well a little bit. And so yeah,
I mean it's a powerful tool that when used wisely,
just like other tools like prayer, a quorditation.
Speaker 1 (47:18):
Well that's the thing with anything, right is like I
am a huge proponent of like in my own life,
like it was transformational and with so many of my friends.
But also like anything, when it gets abused or the
container's not set correctly or all these different things, then
you can run into some real problems.
Speaker 2 (47:33):
And that's where I said, I'm still a fan of it.
Speaker 1 (47:36):
I still use it myself very sparingly now because I
think you worked through most of your big stuff in those.
Speaker 2 (47:41):
First couple of years.
Speaker 3 (47:42):
It's a tool up and then you work and then you're.
Speaker 2 (47:44):
Kind of yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:45):
But I also I don't advocate for other people necessarily
to do it, because if you're called to it like
you were, then you're probably ready. But if your buddy's
just like telling you how cool it was, that might
not be the first time to go try it.
Speaker 3 (47:56):
Dude. I love that. And let's double down on this,
and let me just say, like from my whole heart
and soul, and I hope everyone reads the book and
feels this. I'll just say for me, I was absolutely
called to it, Jimmy, like I was called to it
by the way. That first experience was so powerful. This
is my story that I thought like it was one
and done. I was one and done. I literally integrated
(48:20):
that experience for thirteen months. I did not touch another psychedelic,
another plant medicine for thirteen months. But about nine or
ten months after it started calling me back and I'm
not saying in an addictive drug way, not at all.
In fact, I'd say that the plant medicine experiences I've
(48:41):
had are like the opposite of addictive. They're real hard work,
and so it's not like you're anxious to go back there.
You go back there because your soul is calling you
back there. And so after nine or ten months, I said,
I said to my wife Sally, I'm like, oh, I'm
feeling called back, you know, like I feel like I
have to do it. So thirteen months after, I went
(49:04):
in for kind of a second experience, and so yeah,
I did it in a very measured, I think, thoughtful way.
These are not things to be trifled with. I don't
think that they're necessarily physically dangerous. That's never been my experience,
but they are. You need to be on stable ground
to handle these things.
Speaker 2 (49:21):
You have to be with the right people again that
can take care of you and everything else. I and
emotionally yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (49:27):
State what I say to people is like, if it's
not a hell, yes, it's still now, that's a payment.
Speaker 3 (49:31):
I like that. That's so we could have just cut
the last time and it's out. And just said that Jimmy,
drop the mic and.
Speaker 1 (49:36):
No, well it's I love your explanation of it too.
And I think you have a different perspective of having
the you know, spiritual and religious background you do, being
a Mormon bishop and then being able to be to
fully know that you were called to Bland medicine.
Speaker 3 (49:48):
You were called to the other bishop fell by the way,
I haven't listened to the conversation.
Speaker 2 (49:51):
Experience was a little bit different. He did. He tried
i Ahwaska first.
Speaker 3 (49:55):
Yeah, but did you feel called to it?
Speaker 2 (49:56):
Like? Yeah? Anyway, he ended up.
Speaker 1 (50:01):
Some other people who had had some life changing experience
that he was very close with and went and tried
it and he was just open minded just enough, you know,
and so anyway, but well, Jeff, if people want to
buy the book, they want to get it, where do
we send them?
Speaker 3 (50:13):
Thanks man. Yeah, the book is called the Last Book
Written by a Human. I hope you like the title.
Speaker 2 (50:18):
I love the title.
Speaker 3 (50:19):
I kind of wanted to be like if I was
plopped here in twenty twenty five, kind of like, what
in the world is going on? And what does AI
have to do with all of this? This is kind
of the book I'd want to read so yeah, the
best you can buy it anywhere Amazon, Target, Walmart, Barnes
and Noble, anywhere you want it. The best way to
follow me is just probably on my website Jeff Burningham
(50:40):
dot com. I have very mixed feelings about social media,
but I'm.
Speaker 1 (50:45):
Tru it's ironic because you've seen the dangers of social media,
but then we got AI coming next.
Speaker 2 (50:49):
It's like another plug in the wall, you know, the matrix.
Speaker 3 (50:52):
Yeah, but I'm trying to reach people where they're at.
There's a lot of people on social media, so I'm
pretty much at everything at Jeff Burningham. I opened a
substat a week or two ago, even at TikTok, And
so yeah, you can follow me on any your social
favorite social platform at Jeff Burningham, at my website. You
can grab the book anywhere, and I hope you do.
And again, this book was meant to be a conversation
starter that maybe turns into some sort of human movement.
(51:15):
So I want to hear what you thought about it,
read it, feel it, and then reach out to me
again via social media or whatever and let me know
your thoughts.
Speaker 2 (51:24):
Well, I love your perspective on AI and all this stuff.
I am going to read it. I have it already
ordered and I will read it. I'll let you know.
Speaker 3 (51:31):
Yeah, I'm excited to hear from you. Thanks Jeff, Thanks Jimmy.
Speaker 1 (51:34):
Thank you again for listening to The Jimmy Rex Show.
And if you liked what you heard, please like and subscribe.
It really helps me to get better guests, to be
able to get the type of people on this podcast.
Speaker 2 (51:44):
It's going to make it the most interesting.
Speaker 1 (51:46):
Also, wanted to everybody about my podcast studio, The Rookery Studios,
now available in Salt Lake City and or in Utah.
If you live in Utah and want to produce your
own podcast, we take all of the guests, work out
of it for you and make it so simple.
Speaker 2 (52:01):
All you do is you come in, you sit down,
you talk, and leave. We record it, edit it, even
post it for you.
Speaker 1 (52:08):
If interested in doing your own podcast, visit our Instagram
and send us a DM Rookery Studios or go to
our website, The Rookery Studios dot com
Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Jimmy Rex Showing.
Today on the podcast, we sit down with Jeff Burningham.
This is a podcast I've been wanting to do for
some time.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
He is one of.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
The top entrepreneur business minds from the state of Utah,
has been for a very long time now. He's the
founder of Peak Vengers Peak Partners, a multi billion dollar
real estate conglomerate, and he also ran for governor a
couple of years back and was given it a pretty
good go. Was getting my vote if it had gone
to that. But at the end of the day, Jeff
(00:30):
is somebody that we all can learn a lot from.
In fact, he is a teacher, he has his own podcast,
teaches at the university, but just had his new book
come out and this is what he's most excited about,
and talk a lot about this on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
But it's called the Last Book.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Written by a human and we talk all things AI
and get into a little bit more about what is
to come and why the book is called that.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
So without further ado, we will get to the show.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
And before we do that, though, I want to talk
to you about bucked up supplement protein drinks. The one
I have right here is rainbow candy, and I can't
actually drink this one on the show today because it
would be my third one today. I am been drinking
these left and right. It literally is my favorite protein
to get. It's like you're drinking a refreshing drink, but
you get twenty five grands of protein for one hundred calory.
(01:13):
So pick them up anywhere bucked up products are sold. Now,
let's get to the show. Jeff, you've been.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Busy, Jimmy, I am moving and shaking. Maybe. Yeah, Releasing
a book is a lot of work.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Well, it's interesting, you know, I've had a couple of
books come out, and when you put a lot of
effort towards it, people buy it, and when you don't,
it gets really hard to sell. And you know, I
think it's such an accomplishment to really write a book,
and especially like you have with this, you know, to
put something into something with your full heart, full intent.
A calling is I know how you've described that you've
(01:53):
had some spiritual moments that led you to this. It
means a lot and I can see why. You know,
you really are adamantly wanting to share this.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Yeah, yeah, you feel if you I mean, I saw
this book as my little offering to the divine, you know.
It was just my very best efforts to try to
spread a message to humanity that I feel like very
passionate about. When the book kind of started coming through me,
(02:22):
I was scared to death about what I was writing.
And so yeah, I put my whole heart and soul
into it. That's very vulnerable. I really understand artists work,
you know. I'm a finance guy and entrepreneur and ran
for governor here in the state of Utah. That's kind
of my background. I more fully appreciate an artist life now,
where you just lay it all on the line. You
(02:43):
have no guarantee of the outcomes. And yeah, it's a
It's a vulnerable place to be, but also a good place.
And I feel I feel really happy with the with
the blood, sweat and tears I put into the work,
and I think people will feel that in the pages.
So Jimmy, I'm grateful that you acknowledge that, that you've
seen it. I don't know you're an author yourself. Yeah, yeah,
(03:05):
I've how many books of you?
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Technically, I've had four.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Two of them are kind of conglomerate books where you know,
other people helped write it, and then too that I authored.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
Wow, so what is the focus?
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Ben?
Speaker 1 (03:14):
So the first one that really that I count as
like my own book was well and my buddy he
co wrote it with me. But it's called you End
Up where You're heading, The Hidden Dangers of living a
safe life and really follows the hero's journey to use
a lot of examples for my own life and people
that I had met and just how that works, you know,
And I think so many people they just kind of
coast through a lot of life is and or like
(03:34):
when hardship does hit, they feel like this isn't supposed
to be happening, when it absolutely is. And really like
telling the story of you know, finding yourself and going
into the cave and coming back and ensuring and all
these things that you have to do. And then the
next book it's called B One. It comes from a
Marcus Earliest quote which is waste no more time arguing
what a good man should be be one And yeah,
(03:56):
and it's all about my coaching program, my men's group,
and how to be a healthy man in toxic times.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
That is that is so cool. Yeah, I think that
anyone who writes a book. I think, you know, this
is one of the blessings of AI. Hopefully it frees
us up to lean into our artistry more of us,
you know, I think everyone has a book in them
or has a piece of art to offer to the world,
but we oftentimes don't take time to do it. It
(04:22):
takes a lot. And as you know, having written books,
you know, whether I sell ten thousand copies or ten
million copies, I already feel like a you know, quote
unquote winter because I've been transformed in the process. I've
been changed. It sounds like that was your experience as well.
So yeah, it's it's been a fun, transformative process. And
(04:45):
I mean launch day is tomorrow. Literally like this will
be I think the last podcast I do before it
hits tomorrow. So yeah, it's happening amazing.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Well, it's you know, I always tell people whether it's
starting a podcast, I'm amost eight hundred episodes in now
to give you an idea, and so are doing a book.
You know you have to take on I think the
true artists this is how they think you have to
do it. Assuming if nobody reads this and nobody buys this,
and I don't get a single person that compliments me
on this or anything, I'll still be glad I wrote it.
I think that's how artists, true artists work. That's why
(05:15):
a lot of them end up broke, and they just
don't care. It's like they just want to pour into
this thing and they're not attached to the outcome as
much as the process of creating it.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
Absolutely. Like you know, I often tell I've since losing
the governor race in twenty twenty, I've been an adjunct
professor of entrepreneurship at BYU, and I've had thousands of
entrepreneurship students, and I often tell them that, you know,
the most simple ideas are often the most powerful and
(05:45):
therefore the most neglected. So the point is, the joy
is in the journey, is what you just said. Now,
these are cliches, these are simple ideas, but there's truth
in them, and you're right. The joy is in the process.
It is in the journey. I think you can apply
this to life. The joy is in the process and
the journey. It's not in some outcome. Necessarily, we're not,
(06:08):
especially as embodied beings here on the earth, We're not
in control of outcomes. And the more that we can
actually live that. I think the more piece that we
can have. And I think that's you know, analogous to
the situation that humanity finds itself in here in the
age of AI.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Well, it's funny that you said. I was going to
say the same thing. It's like part of the problem
I have with AI. I'm a big anti AI. We'll
start there and we'll get into it. But well it's
I mean, they're obsessed with the outcome as opposed to
the process to get you to the outcome, right, And
I think a lot of people want to outsource.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
It's one thing to outsource, you know, searching.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Sure, like when I was little, we were pulling out
Encyclopedia and then Google came along and obviously with AI,
now that's an amazing thing to get answers, is that,
But you're also are outsourcing a little bit of the
you know, coming up with the answer, but like the
creativity part, And that's where I go with that. Like,
there's I have multiple people I've texted in the last
six months and I know, damn well when I got
(07:05):
the text back that they ran it through an AI
to get a better response to it. Oh yeah, Like
I mean, I'm having some conversations as a girl I've been dating.
We had we had conversated for almost a year on text.
All of a sudden, I get this response. I'm like,
the hell is this?
Speaker 2 (07:19):
You know.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
You have to ask, I said, text me when you
want to give me I said, you either just talk
to a life coach or that was Chad GPT.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
If you want to give me a real response, I'll respond,
you know.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
But and that seems like a lot of work, Like
I've never even considered like they just know.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
They literally just run the text conversation and say, please
give me a give me the best response, yeah yeah,
or give me an empathetic response, give me a witty
response or whatever.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
And this is happening more and more, and.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
So it's people outsourcing their own thoughts, their own feelings,
and it's like, that's not real. And that's where I
start running into, you know, where you miss out on
the process of coming up with something, like there's no
greater joy than coming up with.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
A great joke on your own. That's you can tell
the world's greatest joke, But if.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
You googled it, it's not that cool. Like if you
come up with a hilarious line. You're like, oh my gosh,
remember when you said this, amen? And that's you know
that to me is the It's like AI steals a
lot of the joy of the process of it all.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
Well, what I hope you know. I talk about in
the book about AI being a crucible that humanity is
going through together like here in the next decade and
two and whatever. And this crucible can either turn us
back to ourselves, make us more human I talk about
rehumanizing ourselves in the book, or it's going to take
(08:37):
some ugly turns, I'm afraid, and it definitely will take
I think we've already seen with social media. It will
take some ugly turns until we work it out. But
I hope in the end, what AI does is remind
us of the beauty of being human, the beauty in
the messiness of real human relationship. You're right when we
(08:59):
outsource our humor or even maybe our empathy to a
machine that can't really feel empathy. I mean, there's joy
in being embodied and feeling. In fact, you could you
could argue that we are here to feel like what
we will remember on our deathbed and what we will
(09:20):
take with us potentially is what we have felt. Yes,
it's that oh quote, you know, you never you always
forget what someone says, but you never forget about how
they make you feel. And if we've quote unquote outsource,
it's impossible.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
To do that.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
But our feeling, what are we left with? What have
we become? And so, yeah, this is an interesting era
that we're entering. And I think I have an interesting
perspective based on a lot of life experience as a
venture capitalist, as a gubernatorial candidate, as a as a
Mormon bishop, as a father, you know, like all these
(09:57):
things that I'm bringing to the table and saying, and hey,
as our machines become more and more intelligent, we as
humans must become more wise. I mean that's the thesis
of the book in one sentence.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Yeah, it's a great thesis.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
I guess I would I want to hear more about.
I just I'm so pessimistic about it, I really am.
I think, well, long for the days before we had AI.
And the reason why you said it yourself, it's like, well,
help us become more human, But every technology you could
argue has helped us be less human. And you know,
and we spend less time with each other, less time
and true connection.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
And it's funny.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
I'm talking about digital technology.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Well, I'm talking.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
About the digital creates the environment where we don't do
the in person as much. So it's like I don't
need to go visit that person because you know, I
can just text him or call them, or I'll see
what he's doing on Instagram or whatever else, and so
I don't know, I you know, I'm building businesses. What
I'm focusing on is things where it absolutely requires people
to get together. Because that, I think is going to
be a huge market. People are going to long for
(11:00):
that more than ever before. And maybe that's what you're
referring to, is like, because we've been detached a little
bit more, we will long for those connections more than ever.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
I think so like I think it turns us back
to ourselves. I think that those in real life experiences,
whether you like, you know, it's interesting I talk about
religious reform in the book, and my question for religions is,
in an age of highly intelligent machines, where humans are
spending more and more time with machines, what special belief
(11:30):
or practice should really get in the way of human
connection and community. And my answer is basically none, as
long as obviously there's not a human in the congregation
or in the you know, in the community that is
maliciously doing harm. Of course you need to protect yourself
from that. But besides that, come in, brother, come in sister,
(11:50):
like we need humans to congregate and be together. So
whether you love you know, whether it's so, I encourage
people actually go back to your faith tradition, meaning lean
into the community and connection that can be felt there.
That's just one example. But you might love running, you know,
you might love mountain biking. I mean, whatever it is
you love to do in real life, lean into that.
(12:13):
We're going to have to fight for that. That's something
we need to hold onto. And again, I think that
AI can turn us back to our humanity. I mean,
this is my hope. I totally understand like your negative outlook.
And by the way, I'm not even saying that I'm
and I want to ask you a question real quick
if I can't, I'm not even saying that I maybe
don't hold some of those same beliefs or thoughts. However, Jimmy,
(12:38):
AI is going to happen. So like it's going to happen.
We can't stop it. You like, that's that's it's going
to happen. So it's funny. I've been on a couple
of podcasts of like, we would it be best to
just pull the plug? And I said, maybe, yeah, if
we could, but we.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Can well because because it can be used for weaponry.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Every country is racing as quickly as possible and because
of that, nobody wants to slow it, and nobody's going
to slow down it's coming.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
Like, so, so, what then, is the benefit of your
kind of negative outlook on it. I get how it's
you know, against your kind of core beliefs and against
maybe your business model, et cetera, et cetera. Or it
could be I think it's going to cause your business
to flourish, obviously, Like I said, but what is the
benefit to being like negative about I'm curious?
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think there's I think there's a
This happened with COVID a little bit. It's you know,
it's one of those things where we're like, maybe I
can make this situation better if I can wake people
up to the thing they're not seeing. You know, with COVID,
it was like, wait, guys, wait, do not wear the
mask that is the first step in the escalation ladder.
They're trying to take away with rights and freedoms that
you're not going to get back. And so I got
(13:44):
loud and you know, and I caused a stir and
like the vaccine thing and everything else, and I was
just really outspoken, and it was like, why did I
care so much?
Speaker 2 (13:51):
And it's for me.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
It's like, well, if I can tell enough people, and
I think that my voice carries some way, it just
tends to people, you know, like listening to my podcast,
and I've had some successes. Well, then I say, you know,
if I can turn enough people's attention to it, then
maybe we can change the outcome a little bit. Maybe
it's just completely naive, but also maybe I don't know.
Maybe just as humans, we are designed to look for
(14:13):
the thing that's going to hurt us, right or the
thing where danger is, And so maybe I just have
attention fixated it. But I'm also going to say, you
might not be wrong. Maybe I need to just quit
worrying about the damn thing, because well, I don't.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
Think it's quit worrying, but I think it's lean in
and Jimmy, you have a voice you just said it.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
All of us do.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
By the way, Yours may be bigger than others, but
we all have a voice. And my call to humanity
via this book, the last book written by a human
becoming wise in the Age of AI. That is the
name of the book. My call is to lean in
with your best self here because we can't stop it.
It's going to happen. And what I argue in the
(14:49):
book is that AI is a cosmic mirror to humanity.
Talk about that, well, think of it, Jimmy, Like, AI
just takes all of human data and recorded history and
then how you interact with it, you know, Jimmy does,
Jeff does, your girlfriend does? You know? Like whatever, and
(15:10):
then just reflex it back to us. So it's a reflection.
And as we you know, a reflection can be a
scary thing. You know, I'm forty eight years old. It
hasn't been to like the last year or two where
I wake up and look in the mirror and I'm like,
who and the hell is this guy?
Speaker 1 (15:27):
You know?
Speaker 3 (15:28):
Like, you know, I'm getting older. It's what happens. So
it can be a scary thing to look at a reflection. Honestly,
I think we're going to see ourselves more clearly and
therefore have the opportunity to change or not. Now it
will be our choice individually and collectively. Humanity is going
(15:49):
to have a chance to take a different path or
to continue down the same path. One of the core
concepts in the book that I talk about is the
old game versus the new game. If we continue to
double and triple and quadruple down on this old game
of division, fear, and greed, you add the godlike technology
(16:12):
of AI on top of that, and that is not
a good outcome for our children and grandchildren and maybe us. However,
there's another there's another game that can be played here.
There's a deeper reality than the illusory division that we
see between ourselves most often conservative, liberal, white, black, rich, poor,
(16:35):
you know, atheist, latter day saying, you know, Christian whatever.
Whatever these divisions are. Those divisions exist for diversity and beauty,
and they add diversity and beauty in the world. However,
they're not the fundamental basis of reality in my opinion,
and if we can come to a better understanding of this,
(16:59):
I'd say divine unity that unites us, we can play
a new game where we lean into that where instead
of cash being the currency, karma is the currency. Instead
of power being the motivation, authenticity is the motivation, and
(17:22):
instead of control being the reason, love is the reason.
So there's a whole game that we can play differently here.
The greatest teachers and masters quote unquote throughout history have
tried to remind us of that game. They've tried to
lead us down a path that continues up to the
modern day. I think the question is are we going
(17:43):
to hear it, to hear the call before it's too late,
or is humanity I'm speaking in general, going to heed
this call, going to follow this new path, a new game,
or do we continue down the old game? And like
I said, especially with AI, I don't think it ends
in the in the best way. This is my opinion.
We're getting kind of weird and MoU wo on here,
(18:03):
but no, and I think it is the crux of
the book.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
No, that's why this is exactly what I wanted to
talk about with this. And you know, it's interesting. But
for me, I guess the reason why I maybe have
a little bit more of a pessimistic because by the way,
I actually I'm not afraid of dying I'm not afraid
of like chaos.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
I thrive in chaos.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
I was my nervous system is grew up in a
chaotic household and it just is ready for that kind
of stuff like that's when I do my best.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
You eat chaos for breakfast?
Speaker 2 (18:27):
No, but it just I'm just very comfortable with it.
I really am.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
And so it's similar, yeah, and so it just doesn't
I'm not afraid of all that. I'm over here, like
you know, but people are like you know, they destroy,
will you know a rebuilder?
Speaker 2 (18:38):
I'm like, no, thanks, like I take me out with you.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
But at the end of the day, I just all
the people that have the ability to control all this.
I have seen so few signs from any of the
people that really have the power control that they're going
to do this in an altruistic way, like it's all
about greed and power for these people in control.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
And it has been for some time. And that's the
part where I'm.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
Like, amen, good luck, I hear you, I believe you.
I know, well, good luck. But it's the work we
were built to do. It's the work we must do.
And I'm talking about let's say I'm taking an eternal perspective,
the long arc of history. This is the work that
we were built to do. Our leaders, by the way,
let me just say one point to this are a
(19:19):
reflection of us. So as soon as enough of humanity
won't stand for whatever political whatever or CEO is doing whatever,
they will change. Yeah, it will change now. Hopefully it
can happen peacefully and beautifully here. I'm not saying that
will totally be the case, but we need a revolution
(19:41):
in my opinion, I mean, this is the way that
we transform. And so I hear you with the leadership,
I understand the pessimism. Believe me, my heart aches with
like the pain of it all. But pain is what
humanity often needs to change.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
When you said something in this this is where I'm
very optimistic, And this is where I'm excited about all
this because I know I'm like pessimistic about where it's talking,
but I'm also like super optimistic. And it's kind of
exciting for me because this is like the real age
of awakening. So because there's so much information, because AI can,
you know, get it all together so quickly, more and more,
you know, the messages are being delivered, I mean, like
(20:21):
people are being exposed things are being exposed. In the past,
it was like the history books were written. I don't
believe anything that those things hold, like the look at
how they skew the news today, and that's with it
right in front of us. Like I guarantee you history
is not what we thought it was. But what's kind
of fun with AI and with technology and all this
is it's exposing it. And you know, and those breaks
(20:43):
are interesting to me. They're fascinating to me. And more
and more people seem to be waking up every day
to what's going on. And I don't know what that
leads to, but it is going to be interesting if
nothing else. We do not live in a boring time.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
Amen.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
There is a.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Million things going on right now and our poor brains
were probably never suppose to think about all.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
This at once. But it's fun. It's fun to be
a part of it.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
It's a you know, it's when I refuse the bitch
about the world because it's like I was sitting at
my pool two days ago, just like just chilling and
having a drink and hanging out, and I'm just sitting
there looking at the mountain and the sun and everything,
and I'm just like what am I talking about? Like
in the history of humanity that you know, the number
of people that have been able to just feel and
(21:24):
be this like in this situation is so few. And
I'm just like this, you know, it's just beautiful. And
so it's like wherever it goes next, let's roll the dice,
let's go.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
But I just hope it.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
I hope the right people control a lot of where
this ends up.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
Yeah, well, again, our leaders are a reflection of us.
So we need to elect people that we believe in
and reflect our values and morals. We need to promote
people within businesses that we think will focus on human
flourishing and not human division and destructs.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
Let me tell you here. So I got a couple
thities on this. So this is where h and he
took a turn for the worse. Okay, and yeah, I
want your take because you were in this world. This
is your world. I think that humanity has a real
problem when none of the impaths or the people that
really care about people are the ones in charge because
it's all about analyticals and drivers. These guys that have
the business wherewith and they're just have the analytical minds.
(22:17):
A lot of these technology guys and all of them,
they don't have that gene that's like empathy first, Like
they don't care about humans the way the nurses do
when the school teachers do. And unfortunately, all the money
and power has flown to those people, and so you
have this real problem with just the type of people.
Like back in the day, you still had empaths getting
into positions of power. I mean, you tried to get
(22:38):
into a position of power, and look how the game
was rigged against you. You ran for that governor race
no offense, but like and you were very wealthy, you
had name recognition, you did a good job, and you
still couldn't get close to the guy that was there
because and.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
They kind of rigged it. Like, if we're going to
be honest, he rigged it so that you couldn't get there.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, No, it's true. I think there's a
lot of truth to what you say. Talk about you know,
tribal times back in the day, where leaders were partially
chosen based on their experience with the divine and their
understanding of who we really are and what reality actually is.
(23:18):
And we have gone far away from that, like you
just said, and we have suffered for it, So will
humanity shift back. I think that there is a new
brand of leaders being raised up. I think that, you know,
I think that there are new leaders being prepared, and
it will be up to us to recognize them and
then to choose them. I think there's a lot of
(23:41):
truth in what you said, and I lightly touch on
this in the book. You know, the book follows four sections,
and it's kind of the technology. As an early investor
in hundreds of tech companies, I've seen this hundreds of
times world and it also kind of mirrors our spiritual
or existential journey. So the first sections disruption. Change is
(24:02):
the only constant we are being disrupted right now. There's
a period of reflection which I think we're beginning to
enter where we say, wait a second, what is AI
and what does this mean?
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Now?
Speaker 3 (24:14):
The stress in this part is it's happening very quickly,
but let's skip to that. After we reflect, we can
lean into, like what you said, the heroic journey that
we're being called on individually and collectively as a body
of humanity. And that's when the third section is called transformation.
That's when we begin to transform to become something more,
(24:37):
something greater than we maybe have ever become before. Lastly
is evolution, and this was the point to the last
section is about evolution, and it's mainly focused on evolving
the institutions that have largely controlled and been in power
for so many times. So I talk about reforming religion,
I talk about education, I talk about conscious capitalism. I
(24:59):
talk about out a new political movement that I called
the human political movement. This is the kind of massive
transformation that I think we are in for in the
upcoming decades. And I think it's the kind of transformation
that we need to embrace if we want to ensure
that this technology helps more people flourish, if we don't,
(25:23):
if we want to consolidate the power, if we want
to be greedy with AI. One thing I say in
the book is whereas in most markets there's like competition
and there's some winners and some losers, if AI is
concentrated in the hands of a cup a few, it's
not some winners and losers. We all lose. All of
(25:45):
humanity loses. So it's time to wake up. You said awakening.
It is time to wake up. That feels to be
like it's in the culture now it's I would say
it's in the stars, like we're feeling this awakening more
and more broadly occur. And I think that's for a reason,
and I think it's time for that to accelerate. I
(26:07):
think that has to accelerate in the age of AI.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
Why do you think you were chosen to write this book?
What do you think it was important that you wrote it?
Speaker 3 (26:17):
That's a good question, and you know, I'll be honest,
I do feel like chosen. I'm not trying to say
that I'm special. I'm just like everyone else. But I
absolutely feel chosen. I would have never chosen myself to
write this book. Are you kidding me? Like? I should
just be living the life and join life. You know,
(26:39):
I have a beautiful family, soulmate Sally, and four kids.
I'm a grandpa, I have a one year old grandson.
Like you said, don't I don't have to work, per se.
I should just be living the good life. I feel
like I absolutely had to write this book. And if
I were to give two answers, this isn't something I've
(26:59):
thought about a lot, But I'll give you two ideas
or thoughts. Maybe the listeners will think are interesting or
chew on number one, I think I have a really
interesting background of experience. I don't know another forty eight
year old that has the very type of experience that
I have. This goes from business to politics, to religion,
(27:24):
to you know, psychedelics, to whatever comes next, you know,
like to technology, to all of these things. It's just
a very rich and varied background. I'm so fortunate for that.
I acknowledge my privilege in that I'm grateful for it.
But so I would say that the second thing I
would say now, which I wouldn't have said, you know,
(27:45):
five years ago or so. You know, I think there's
karmic reasons for why we are where we are, how
we're placed, where we're placed, you know, the bodies we
may be in, the families that we may find ourselves
in the circumstances. And so I know that's a little
more ethereal and spiritual and woo woo. But I would
(28:06):
just have to believe it's felt karmic to me the
work that I'm doing now, in terms of releasing this book,
writing it, et cetera. It's felt like there's a karmic
element to what is happening here. There's my best two No.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
A follow up question that would be why.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
I mean, there's so much information on AI right now,
what's something we can learn from the book give us
a little preview, something we can learn in the book
about Ai that maybe we're not getting somewhere else.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
Well, again, this book, I'll say two overarching things. Number One,
this book is the Bowld case for Ai. And now
I'm not an idiot. I haven't stuck my head in
the sand, and I've certainly been through enough pain to
realize we're in for a lot more pain. Pain, like
I said, is what we often need as humans to
(28:51):
really change and transform. I'm not saying this is going
to be follow the Yellow Bok road and we all
end up in a great place. There's going to be
a lot of pain that kind of gets us there.
And so this was a spiritual look, a high level
look at AI. I don't talk about like how to
(29:13):
write the best prompt, how to make more money, how
to become more efficient. This is a stop and pause.
This book was written as a conversation starter that could
lead to a human movement, and it was to say,
who WHOA WHOA? Wait up, why is Ai here? Why
do we feel strangely attracted to it but absolutely fearful
(29:37):
of it. How can AI help us lean into this
divine desk to need this heroic journey that we're all
going through together. So really the book is like seventy
five percent human nature and twenty five percent AI because
and this might be something. I don't think AI is
(29:59):
a technology. It's not a technology problem. It's a human problem.
So if AI is a reflection of us, what do
we need to become, what do we need to bring
to its development?
Speaker 1 (30:12):
Well, and I like you talked about that a little
bit earlier, you said about the whole mirror thing, and
I wanted to touch more on that because it is interesting,
whether it's psychedelics or maybe it's a spiritual experience through
fasting and prayer or something like that, when information comes
to us. I know in my own examples of this
with psychedelics and other things, it's like it shows you
(30:32):
where you need to improve, what your problems are, what
your bullshit is.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
But all it is is an awareness.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
And I think what you're saying is one of the
things AI might be able to gift us is because
it's a mirror, it can show us without the need
of going on these crucibles and crazy experiences. It will
show us more in real time where our blind spots are,
and then we get to you still, just like if
you go do ayahuasca, you come back, you still got
to deal with it.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
You still got to figure out what you want to
do with the information you got. Thing with this in.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
AI and maybe the awareness of it. I know, you know,
Stephen Arcovey talks about, you know, the four quadrants of
like being unaware, unaware that you're unaware, aware that you're unaware,
and then aware that you're aware or whatever. But and
I think maybe is this kind of what you're saying,
is it gives you more of that loop of feedback
and so you're able to course correct more quickly.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:23):
Absolutely. I kind of talk in the beginning of the
book about my little climbing, my little mountain of success.
I march up this mountain, you know what I mean.
And I get up there and I say that there's
nothing there but a cold, howling wind. There's just void,
nothing different than in the Valley of the Shadow of Death,
(31:45):
nothing different than your march along the top. So what
are you left to do then? When you've kind of
achieved everything you thought you were achieved. You have everything
you thought you wanted, and you still have work to do.
You're still not at peace. So there's nothing to do
but to climb back down the mountain, pick up the
(32:06):
tattered pieces of a little bit of a broken life.
Even if you did it all in, I did it
with a full heart and with good intent everything I've done,
but the pace that I was keeping there was shrapnel
and damage. You know, just because the pace was unearthed,
we leave awake. So you pick up those pieces and
(32:28):
you realize, Jimmy, that what you're looking for is not
outside of you. There's nothing that we're looking for as
humans external to us. Now we all go for external validation,
we go for external rewards, we go for you know,
acquisition of things or whatever. But that's not going to
(32:50):
soften the pain, soften the reality of what we're experiencing here.
The only way that that can happen is for going inside.
So I think that AI will force more and more
of us to go inside, to deal with our own pain,
to deal with our own trauma, to deal with our
own to use bullshit, to use your term, and to
(33:14):
go through that work. And it's in that work that
we can transform. And as one person transforms, I believe
that we're all connected that ripples through. So you have
you know, hundreds thousands, millions of people transforming, and I
think that this can happen so well.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
To add something to that, I think one of the
problems we have with we've had with modern world, you know,
up until the last maybe fifteen years or so, like
people didn't even want to look at their problems.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
They didn't want to deal with anything.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
And now that we're looking at it, but the tools
aren't great, we can see this to help people deal
with this stuff. So maybe AI is the handswer and
maybe that's how people feel safe enough to be able
to truly go into some of these dark places and
be able to you know, excavate some of the things
that are, you know, causing them all their pain and hurt.
Speaker 3 (33:59):
Well, what I say is that people don't look inside
until they're in enough pain. And when the pain because
you can numb or distract pretty easily. You can numb,
you can distract, you can yeah, whatever, you can pretend
he guy is going to cut that stuff out. I
think it's going to cause enough pain that a lot
(34:20):
of people are going to look inside and to do
their own work. I was addicted to doing so here's same. Yeah,
I was addicted to do it.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
I never, once in my life had to be motivated
to do more.
Speaker 3 (34:31):
It was like, it was ridiculous. Like I tell this,
I don't know if you want to go long form here,
I can tell a story from the book is pretty funny.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
Yeah, dude.
Speaker 3 (34:39):
I was running a multi billion dollar private equity firm,
investing one hundred million dollars in venture capital, A young
a father of four, serving very actively in my church
as a bishop and other things, and for some reason
I decided that I needed to add MBA to my resume. Ridiculous.
(35:01):
So the only time I could do that, obviously, it
was late nights and weekends. And as I look back now,
I was like, what in the world was I thinking? Well,
I know exactly what I was thinking. I thought that
you could always do more to be more. But here's
what taught me you couldn't. This is when it began.
I was seeing a leadership class in my MBA school
(35:22):
and the professor said, think, I want everyone to think
of the most motivating thing to you right now. What
is motivating you. I've always been a big dreamer. I've
always been a builder, a doer. So I was like, oh, yeah,
this is my thing. I'm excited. I sit there and
I'm blank and empty. The other my colleagues around me
start working and typing and having ideas. Jimmy, I see nothing.
(35:47):
Finally two things come to me need two visions of
what's motivating me, neither of which I'm proud of, the
second one of which sent me to my first therapy
session of my life. The first one were similar. Ages
was like a wild party scene. It's like I say
in the book, it was like a mashup between Yo
(36:09):
MTV raps and a Badass Cribs episode, you know from
the eighties and nineties.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
And it was this.
Speaker 3 (36:15):
Wild party scene substances, you know, like very very little clothing.
It was just like pure freedom, and I knew that
I was seeking, like freedom and release. I knew in
the end that wild party scene would end in a downer,
it wouldn't last, and I knew it would be empty
(36:37):
in the end. And it was very I mean, I
was a very devout Latter day Saint Mormon, and like
I'd never even tasted coffee and tea, let alone alcohol
and drugs. So like that was one thing. The second one, though,
was even more scary. I saw myself close up my laptop,
pick up my bag, put my laptop in my back drive,
(37:00):
fifteen minutes to the Salt Lake City Airport and buy
a one way ticket to the furthest imaginable place on Earth,
and disappearing, disappearing from it all, from my soulmate, Sally,
my four beautiful children, all my business partners, my investors,
like this financial empire that I'd built, just leaving everything behind.
(37:26):
So I go to my first therapist and I parse
out with him that my doing had eroded my being.
We are not human doings, Jimmy. We have become more
and more of that, and AI will push us or
could push us in that direction. However, let me just
finish this thought. What we need to return to is
our being. And I think that's what this era will
(37:49):
call for, for each one of us to go back
to our being, to lean into our human beingness, and
that will be a massive blessing if we embrace that.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
No, and that's powerful and I believe this. And it's
funny because I have been talking about I run this
men's group, and people always I've been talking about what
I'm going to do next a little bit and people
they always say like, what are you going to do next?
And I say, I'm I don't know when I'm going
to be done doing this, but I'm going to take
a year and do nothing. Because it's not about what
I do next. I'm going to It will be the
(38:23):
challenge of my life to do nothing, but I'm going
to do it. I'm going to force myself to take
at least one year at a minimum and do nothing.
And because I started about two years ago going into
the woods once a week and just sitting for an
hour or two, no phone, nothing and just allowing myself
to be right and it's cool. It took me hard
years before I could meditate for twenty minutes. Now I
can do it every day. And so it's like I've
(38:45):
really had to work to destroy this culture that we
have in America of like doing more is better, that's
what everybody thinks.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
It's like, what's the first question people ask you when
you meet them? What do you do?
Speaker 3 (38:55):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (38:56):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
I saw this free great video the other day. I
was like, the dude said he said, what do I do? Oh,
I go biking. I go hiking and I like to fish.
And the guy's like, no, no, I mean like, what do
you do for work? He goes, oh, you want to
know what I do to make money? No, I'm not
going to talk about that.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
I thought that was such a good line, you know.
I was like, well said, but we are. We're obsessed
with this idea that you have to do more. And
I was too.
Speaker 1 (39:21):
I always thought like, well, you know, it's we have
our wins from our childhood. If we want to be
accepted by our parents, if we do well, we do more,
we do good, We you know, stay out of their way.
All these things that we're going to you know, they're
going to be happier with us. And so I think
unfortunately we're taught that we're rewarded by doing. But like
you're said, the advantage that you have Jeff, and I
(39:42):
think I've been able to experience this as well, is
you do kind of get to the top of a
place and you're like, oh shit, you use the word void.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
You know.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
I for years, my only goal is to be the
number one real turn in Utah.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
In twenty eighteen, I hit it. I sold almost five
hundred homes.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
I sold the most expensive home ever in Utah, thirty
two and a half a million dollars.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
I was number one in Utah that year in.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
Commissioner, and I was like, seriously, how did you feel
It's normal?
Speaker 2 (40:06):
It was like nothing. It was like nothing change question
zero and all it did? You know what the what
it did do?
Speaker 1 (40:12):
And this happened in a plant medicine journey is it
came clear todays me is like you need to do
something else, like you're done with this and this is
as good.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
As this is ever going to get. And I was like, oh,
I don't like that. And because it was it was
like what else are you going to do? You know?
And so it's like I could.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
Just keep making money for the rest of my life,
but for what Like once you have things, I was
already doing what I wanted, had what I wanted. I'm
not I don't like expensive things. So it's just everything
was already there. And so it was like, okay, well,
what can I you know, give more to this universe too,
And you've had that advantage and I think it's one
of the reasons why you were called to write this book,
because until you've had those things, until you've been to
(40:48):
the top of that mountain, it's really hard to talk
about the experience at the top of the mountain. But
if you did get there and which you have, like
with your success, with you know, all these different things
that everybody spends their whole life trying to get to,
then you can get new perspectives and go, oh, I
was running up the wrong I had my ladder against
the wrong wall. I was running up the wrong hill
(41:08):
the whole time, and all of a sudden you realize
that maybe I need to do a little bit lessious
exactly what you said, or maybe it's not about doing
anything at all, it's about just how I'm showing up
and being present in the moments.
Speaker 3 (41:18):
Well, again, the most simple ideas are often the most
powerful and therefore the most neglected. And here is one.
If I do more, I can be more or I
am more. That's not true, like doing is not where
our worth comes.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
It's one of the advantages of technology and AI is
it gets rid of a lot of the bullshit doing.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
Yeah, the farm work and the assembly lines.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
And I get what you're saying on that, because that
is that's just doing for the sake of doing. That's
just because we need a bullshit thing that needs to
get made or needs to get farmed or cropped or whatever.
And if you can get rid of that in a
higher capacity, which is I think what you're saying with Ai,
I'm starting to see your vision a little bit.
Speaker 2 (42:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
Yeah, at least gives me some hope that I didn't
have before a conversation.
Speaker 3 (42:07):
Well, we have time to be and we have time
to sit with ourselves and to realize that what we're
really looking for is already inside of us, and there
is nothing that we could really do that would quote
unquote add to our worth. We already are everything.
Speaker 1 (42:25):
I always say, God can't love us more or lesson
he does, So what do you want to do? Like
he can't love you more, I can't love you less,
So quit trying to earn something that you don't have.
Speaker 3 (42:35):
To know the merit badges.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
Yeah, I was going to ask.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
You about that from a spiritual side. You said you're
a bishop, and then you threw in psychedelics. You're the
second bishop I've had on Then that's done, psychedelics. I
had a bishop a couple years ago that win did
ayahuasca while he was an active bishop.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
I was going to ask.
Speaker 1 (42:51):
You, what was your experience both is personally with that,
and how did you reconcile those different feelings and did
it strengthen your testimony I guess of the LDS Church.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
And was there any pushback to you being public about that?
Speaker 3 (43:05):
Absolutely, I'm scared to death to talk about this. Absolutely.
I mean, scared to death is too strong. I shouldn't
overstate it. I was scared to death. I'm not now today,
but I was. Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (43:18):
Let me tell you the story, just real quick, kind
of how it happened for me. And this is just
for me, and all the caveats that these are very
the plants are powerful. You need to do it wisely,
you need to do it maturely. This is in my experience.
Speaker 1 (43:31):
Actually stopped advocating for it because it can go wrong
for people.
Speaker 3 (43:35):
Absolutely. Yeah, but let me tell you my experience, and
this is just my one person experience. I lose the
gubernatorial race into the summer of twenty twenty. Another thing
that I've told my students a BYU is with time
and space, anything can be created. And just to be
honest with you, I had never had time and space.
(43:55):
In my entire adult life until the summer of twenty twenty,
served a mission, got married, had kids, started businesses, became
a bishop. You know, like, I had no time in space.
But the summer of twenty twenty, I have time and space.
So I dive back into the work that i'd missed,
venture capital, work, technology. I ran a statewide campaign for
(44:16):
eighteen months, so that's an eternity in technology. So I
had a lot to catch up on, and a lot
of technologies bubbled to the surface, one of which, obviously
the most important, was AI, and I was immediately attracted
to Oh, not like how can I invest in AI
and make money, but more like, oh, wow, what is
this going to mean existentially for humans and for us
(44:37):
understanding ourselves. Another thing that kept popping up, and I
think it was because of the mental health crisis that
the world was in during COVID, was psychedelics. So of
course I had heard of these things. I knew tangentially
about them. I never even considered, you know, anything about him,
But I started doing research, and I did research for
(44:59):
inn entire year. And the only way I can explain
to you, Jimmy, I don't know what your experience is
and again I gave all the necessary caveats and blah
blah blah. Yeah I again, I had never tasted coffee
or tea the first I guess substance. It's a plant.
By the way, It's literally just a big mushroom, a
big penis m v mushroom. I'm glad I did not
(45:20):
know the name of that strain until after I had
ingested it. I felt commanded, like that's the best Mormon
way to put it. I felt like commanded to eat this,
and I felt another. I felt damned, meaning stuck if
I did not. And I grappled with this for you know,
(45:40):
it built over a year. But I did research for
a full year until I could just not not do it,
Like I felt convicted that I needed to do it.
Speaker 2 (45:51):
So I did an act of bishop.
Speaker 3 (45:53):
At the time, no, no, no no, I was a
bishop many years ago. No no no, But I was
an active member of the church. I still am. I
going to church on Sunday. You know, I have kids
at BYU and serving missions and all the things. So anyways,
that was my experience. I used it very responsibly. I
had an unbelievable first experience I write about it in
(46:14):
the book. Check it out. But and for me, you
can't see quote unquote behind the veil. You can't unsee
what you've seen. You can't unfeel what you've felt. So
once you've had that experience, you either acknowledge that experience
it has to count for something, and you adjust your
(46:37):
behavior in positive ways based on your experience, or like
other experiences, you push it down, you deny it, you
shove it down, you say you know that wasn't real.
What I end up saying in this chapter that I
write about my first mushroom journey is I say that
in my experience, psychedelics don't create an illusion, they reveal
(46:59):
the illusion. And so that was kind of the first step.
And I talk about my first actually ayahuasca experience in
the book as well a little bit. And so yeah,
I mean it's a powerful tool that when used wisely,
just like other tools like prayer, a quorditation.
Speaker 1 (47:18):
Well that's the thing with anything, right is like I
am a huge proponent of like in my own life,
like it was transformational and with so many of my friends.
But also like anything, when it gets abused or the
container's not set correctly or all these different things, then
you can run into some real problems.
Speaker 2 (47:33):
And that's where I said, I'm still a fan of it.
Speaker 1 (47:36):
I still use it myself very sparingly now because I
think you worked through most of your big stuff in those.
Speaker 2 (47:41):
First couple of years.
Speaker 3 (47:42):
It's a tool up and then you work and then you're.
Speaker 2 (47:44):
Kind of yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:45):
But I also I don't advocate for other people necessarily
to do it, because if you're called to it like
you were, then you're probably ready. But if your buddy's
just like telling you how cool it was, that might
not be the first time to go try it.
Speaker 3 (47:56):
Dude. I love that. And let's double down on this,
and let me just say, like from my whole heart
and soul, and I hope everyone reads the book and
feels this. I'll just say for me, I was absolutely
called to it, Jimmy, like I was called to it
by the way. That first experience was so powerful. This
is my story that I thought like it was one
and done. I was one and done. I literally integrated
(48:20):
that experience for thirteen months. I did not touch another psychedelic,
another plant medicine for thirteen months. But about nine or
ten months after it started calling me back and I'm
not saying in an addictive drug way, not at all.
In fact, I'd say that the plant medicine experiences I've
(48:41):
had are like the opposite of addictive. They're real hard work,
and so it's not like you're anxious to go back there.
You go back there because your soul is calling you
back there. And so after nine or ten months, I said,
I said to my wife Sally, I'm like, oh, I'm
feeling called back, you know, like I feel like I
have to do it. So thirteen months after, I went
(49:04):
in for kind of a second experience, and so yeah,
I did it in a very measured, I think, thoughtful way.
These are not things to be trifled with. I don't
think that they're necessarily physically dangerous. That's never been my experience,
but they are. You need to be on stable ground
to handle these things.
Speaker 2 (49:21):
You have to be with the right people again that
can take care of you and everything else. I and
emotionally yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (49:27):
State what I say to people is like, if it's
not a hell, yes, it's still now, that's a payment.
Speaker 3 (49:31):
I like that. That's so we could have just cut
the last time and it's out. And just said that Jimmy,
drop the mic and.
Speaker 1 (49:36):
No, well it's I love your explanation of it too.
And I think you have a different perspective of having
the you know, spiritual and religious background you do, being
a Mormon bishop and then being able to be to
fully know that you were called to Bland medicine.
Speaker 3 (49:48):
You were called to the other bishop fell by the way,
I haven't listened to the conversation.
Speaker 2 (49:51):
Experience was a little bit different. He did. He tried
i Ahwaska first.
Speaker 3 (49:55):
Yeah, but did you feel called to it?
Speaker 2 (49:56):
Like? Yeah? Anyway, he ended up.
Speaker 1 (50:01):
Some other people who had had some life changing experience
that he was very close with and went and tried
it and he was just open minded just enough, you know,
and so anyway, but well, Jeff, if people want to
buy the book, they want to get it, where do
we send them?
Speaker 3 (50:13):
Thanks man. Yeah, the book is called the Last Book
Written by a Human. I hope you like the title.
Speaker 2 (50:18):
I love the title.
Speaker 3 (50:19):
I kind of wanted to be like if I was
plopped here in twenty twenty five, kind of like, what
in the world is going on? And what does AI
have to do with all of this? This is kind
of the book I'd want to read so yeah, the
best you can buy it anywhere Amazon, Target, Walmart, Barnes
and Noble, anywhere you want it. The best way to
follow me is just probably on my website Jeff Burningham
(50:40):
dot com. I have very mixed feelings about social media,
but I'm.
Speaker 1 (50:45):
Tru it's ironic because you've seen the dangers of social media,
but then we got AI coming next.
Speaker 2 (50:49):
It's like another plug in the wall, you know, the matrix.
Speaker 3 (50:52):
Yeah, but I'm trying to reach people where they're at.
There's a lot of people on social media, so I'm
pretty much at everything at Jeff Burningham. I opened a
substat a week or two ago, even at TikTok, And
so yeah, you can follow me on any your social
favorite social platform at Jeff Burningham, at my website. You
can grab the book anywhere, and I hope you do.
And again, this book was meant to be a conversation
starter that maybe turns into some sort of human movement.
(51:15):
So I want to hear what you thought about it,
read it, feel it, and then reach out to me
again via social media or whatever and let me know
your thoughts.
Speaker 2 (51:24):
Well, I love your perspective on AI and all this stuff.
I am going to read it. I have it already
ordered and I will read it. I'll let you know.
Speaker 3 (51:31):
Yeah, I'm excited to hear from you. Thanks Jeff, Thanks Jimmy.
Speaker 1 (51:34):
Thank you again for listening to The Jimmy Rex Show.
And if you liked what you heard, please like and subscribe.
It really helps me to get better guests, to be
able to get the type of people on this podcast.
Speaker 2 (51:44):
It's going to make it the most interesting.
Speaker 1 (51:46):
Also, wanted to everybody about my podcast studio, The Rookery Studios,
now available in Salt Lake City and or in Utah.
If you live in Utah and want to produce your
own podcast, we take all of the guests, work out
of it for you and make it so simple.
Speaker 2 (52:01):
All you do is you come in, you sit down,
you talk, and leave. We record it, edit it, even
post it for you.
Speaker 1 (52:08):
If interested in doing your own podcast, visit our Instagram
and send us a DM Rookery Studios or go to
our website, The Rookery Studios dot com
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