September 7, 2023 • 26 mins
In 2005, Josh is gifted a stack of strange letters.
In 1987, Karen and Ellen move into their very first apartment and immediately begin terrorizing their landlord.
And so we begin to unravel a decade-long mystery with a single question: Can these letters actually be real?
The Karen & Ellen Letters are found correspondence.
Narrated and produced by: Josh Hallmark.
Starring: Sara Stapleton, Sara Beth Kitcher, and Jeff Powell.
Music by:
Patreon producers:
Adrienne Aiello, Amelia Hancock, Amy Basil, Annette L, Benjamin Cioppa-Fong, Casey Jensen-Richardson, Dana Keith, Dr. Jill Cooper, Drew Vipond, Hallie Reed, Jessica Alihodzic, Jillian Natale, John O’Leary, Kendall C, Kimberly K, Lauren F, Lynnlie Tuschoff, Manolis Boulukos, Meggan Capps-Seawel, Mike Sherman, Nicole & Dennis Henry, Sarah King, SC, Shannon Foster, Shelly Brewer, Tuesdi Woodworth, Zack Ignatowicz Warren, Beth McNally, John Comrie, Jordan Taylor, Karli McNutt, Lana, Sara Cee, Lydia Fiedler
In 1987, Karen and Ellen move into their very first apartment and immediately begin terrorizing their landlord.
And so we begin to unravel a decade-long mystery with a single question: Can these letters actually be real?
The Karen & Ellen Letters are found correspondence.
Narrated and produced by: Josh Hallmark.
Starring: Sara Stapleton, Sara Beth Kitcher, and Jeff Powell.
Music by:
- Everything
- Junk City Rejects
- Neon Coast
- Fifteen
- Neon Rider; and
- Lee Rosevere
Patreon producers:
Adrienne Aiello, Amelia Hancock, Amy Basil, Annette L, Benjamin Cioppa-Fong, Casey Jensen-Richardson, Dana Keith, Dr. Jill Cooper, Drew Vipond, Hallie Reed, Jessica Alihodzic, Jillian Natale, John O’Leary, Kendall C, Kimberly K, Lauren F, Lynnlie Tuschoff, Manolis Boulukos, Meggan Capps-Seawel, Mike Sherman, Nicole & Dennis Henry, Sarah King, SC, Shannon Foster, Shelly Brewer, Tuesdi Woodworth, Zack Ignatowicz Warren, Beth McNally, John Comrie, Jordan Taylor, Karli McNutt, Lana, Sara Cee, Lydia Fiedler
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:09):
This is a studio both and productionwarning. Listening to this podcast may cause
on mitigating obsession and cognitive dissonance.All names have been changed to protect the
innocent, the insane, and everyoneelse in between. It was the summer
(00:35):
of two thousand and five. Ata Kinkos in downtown San Francisco. A
woman named Susan watched worn out pagesas they slid through a photocopier, like
they had so many times before,and like they would so many times again.
Just several blocks away, a guywho somewhat resembles me now was turning
(00:57):
twenty four. Hurricane Katrina had devastatedthe Gulf Coast, and I was devastated.
I'd spent the previous week watching thecity I had just moved from the
city I loved, the city fullof some of my closest friends, flooded,
looted, destroyed, and ignored.The night before my birthday, my
(01:19):
boyfriend, best friend and I satin silence in a wine bar, occasionally
choking up in conversation that existed merelyto coal the conversation we were avoiding.
At midnight, we chugged Beaujolais infront of a picture window that overlooked the
San Francisco Bay and out across toOakland and Berkeley, and we wondered where
(01:40):
our friends were. They were okay. We tried to find some bright spot.
We looked for some reason to smile, to laugh. Karen and Ellen
always have a way of finding youwhen you need them the most. It's
funny looking back now at how muchnot only my life has changed since that
(02:00):
faithful night, but also how Iview those letters, How a simple birthday
gift would change my life completely,how for years it would be about comedy,
and then mystery, which became obsession, and now finally community and perspective
(02:24):
and humanity. The many lives ofthese letters have all had such distinct and
different impacts on mine, and they'vealways come at just the right moments.
Like I said, Karen and Ellenalways find you just when you need them
the most, and they always bringwith them an ironic sense of wisdom and
awareness and maybe just the right amountof cognitive dissonance. This is the Karen
(02:52):
and Ellen Letters. It was thesummer of nineteen eighty seven, the Simpsons
(03:15):
made their first TV appearance, thestock market crashed, and perhaps not coincidentally,
Prozac made its American debut. Andmeanwhile, in Oakland, California,
two teenage girls were moving into theirvery first apartment July first, nineteen eighty
(03:36):
seven. Dear Mark, When Isigned the lease last week, I pointed
out the burned out light bulb inthe refrigerator. You said, if I
replaced it myself, I could deductthe cost from my next month's rent,
along with any other small expenses thatwere your responsibility. So I'm sending you
this list of things I plan willdeduct from my August rent less number one
one refrigerator light bulb two dollars two, oven light bulb two dollars. Three,
(04:01):
shed padlock eight dollars four, telephoneinstallation thirty seven dollars five telephone thirty
six dollars six, telephone extension cordnine dollars. Seven, hangers for closets
in bedrooms twelve dollars. Eight extrafront door keys, u okade six dollars
(04:21):
nine, fish food ten dollars ten, aljacide five dollars eleven, garden tools
sixteen dollars twelve, ice tray forfreezer two dollars thirteen, cleaning stuff forty
six dollars. Karen in two thousandand five, I received a strange and
(04:51):
life changing birthday present, a filefolder full of photocopied handwritten letters between two
ten send their landlord. I lookeda bit bewildered at the woman who handed
me the present, a woman namedSusan who I worked with at, ironically
enough, a law firm. Shejust smiled and said, trust me,
(05:13):
you need these, and she wasright in more ways than one. Little
did I know then that this folderwould lead to hours upon hours of hysterical
laughter and then a successful blog,followed by a live performance and an odd
eleven year journey to authenticate those letters. I launched The Karen and Ellen Letters
(05:35):
as a podcast back in twenty seventeen, at which point not much progress had
been made in actually finding out thetruth about the letters. But as we
recorded episode after episode, Sarah Stapleton, who plays Karen, became as obsessed
with finding out the truth as Iwas, and in real time, as
(05:56):
the podcast was airing, we reopenedmy investing into them and we started finding
answers, and those answers were oftenquite surprising and almost always a bit challenging.
Throughout the podcast, you'll hear theletters read by actors, and those
letters are read as they're written,Typos, misspellings, poor grammar, and
(06:18):
all of which there is a lot. And as we go along, I
imagine you'll find yourself debating whether ornot these could be real. And it
turns out the answer to that questionis as complicated as it is surprising.
July third, nineteen eighty seven,Dear Mark, List number two. One
(06:41):
Bay Cable Vision, Cable TV hookup fifty dollars. Two Bay Cable Vision
deposit fifty dollars. I will returnthis fifty dollars to you when I leave.
Three oven cleaner four dollars, fourbath rug thirty dollars, five electric
broom vacuum cleaner forty seven dollars.Karen, July ninth, nineteen eighty seven.
(07:05):
Dear Karen, I have received yourlists number one and two of expenses
you plan to deduct from your rent. You may deduct the cost of the
refrigerator and stove lightbulbs, the ovencleaner if the oven was dirty when you
moved in, and the keys andthe padlock, provided that you return the
(07:27):
padlock and its keys to me whenyou leave. I will not pay for
the other expenses because I do notbelieve that they could normally be considered a
landlord responsibility. I think you havebadly misunderstood me when I said you could
make small purchases and deduct them fromyour rent if I was responsible for them
in the future. Before you buyanything that you plan to deduct from your
(07:49):
rent, I think you should callme first and get my o k Mark.
July thirteenth, nineteen eighty seven.Dear Mark, got your letter.
I'd like to work out a dealwith you on my list of expenses.
So I'll pay for the cable TVstuff if you will pay for the phone
stuff, and I will pay forthe cleaning stuff if you will pay for
(08:09):
the vacuum cleaner, or we canjust split the expenses in halfs I'd like
to get the settled before Ellen arrivesnext month. Karen PS. A few
days ago, I was sitting onthe deck. When I stood up,
I tore my jeans that got caughton a nail in your deck. The
jeans costed forty two dollars. I'vesaved them so you can see them,
(08:31):
okay. July twenty first, nineteeneighty seven, dear Mark, Hello,
I'm just writing to let you knowhow much I'm looking forward to moving into
my new home. Karen has describedthe house to me, and it sounds
well dreamy. I know we willget along famously. As you know,
I'm an artist and i'm majoring aninterior design that you see. I'm looking
(08:54):
forward to trying out some of myideas on my new home. I'm leaving
money matters to Karen. Being anartist, I'm not as practical as she
is. I've been studying art inWashington this summer. One of the things
I've learned here is a new oiltransfer process for marbleizing walls and ceiling.
Of course, I'll check with youbefore doing any work on my walls,
(09:16):
but I know you'll just love it. I have a gauzy picture in my
mind of the house. Now Iknow that work imagination, and some financial
assistance from you, I can turnmy new home into an enchanted place.
Yours, Helen, July sixteenth,nineteen eighty seven. Karen, your expectations
(09:37):
that I'm going to pay for suchthings as your vacuum cleaner, your telephone,
and now your clothes is totally ridiculousand unrealistic on your part. I'm
sorry to be so blunt but mylast letter didn't seem to make my point
clear to you. My last letterwas not intended to be an author in
part of the continuing negotiation, likehaggling with a rug merch into a Persian
(10:00):
bazaar, but rather a simple statementof what I will and will not pay
for. As far as your genesare concerned, I can only advise you
that you look more carefully in thefuture where you sit. A deck is
designed to be walked upon, notsat upon. Sincerely, Mark, July
twenty third, nineteen eighty seven.Dear Mark, I didn't understand your letter.
(10:24):
I don't want to buy a rugin a Persian bazaar. I just
want you to pay for the stuffI talked about in my letters to you,
especially the cable TV deposit which isoverdue. Karen, PS. Good
news. I fixed my jeens,so now you don't have to pay for
them, okay. July twenty fourth, nineteen eighty seven. Karen, your
(10:46):
lease says that you are to payall utility bills except for garbage collection and
water. When I told you tocall pg any to transfer the gas and
electricity to your house, I didnot give you omission to have them send
the bill to me. I expresslytold you when you signed the lease that
you were to pay the gas andelectric bill. I don't know why you've
(11:09):
had the bills sent to me,but you should call pgn E immediately to
have them service transferred to your name, because I'm going to call them and
have it taken out of my name. As you know, I can't have
the service turned off since there's onlyone meter for yours and the Caldwell's electricity.
Karen, you've got to stop playinggames with me. My patience is
(11:31):
getting pretty stretched. Mark July twentyeighth, nineteen eighty seven. Karen,
when I wrote that I wasn't goingto haggle with you like a rug dealer
and a Persian bazzar or bizzar ifyou prefer, I meant that only as
(11:52):
a simile a figure of speech.I cannot be more blunt than I have
already been. I will only payfor those items I have expressly agreed to
pay for in my letters to you. As to the cable TV deposit,
Karen, you should know that thelandlord does not pay a deposit to his
tenant, but rather a tenant paysa deposit to a landlord. Mark Mark,
(12:18):
I'm very concerned about all these rats. Karen, August second, nineteen
eighty seven. Dear Mark, I'veasked a lot of my friends and they
tell me you're right about the cableTV deposit. My friends tell me that
landlords don't give deposits to their tenants. So I guess I'll just have to
(12:39):
pay for all the stuff on mylists myself now, since you won't.
There is one new item. WhenI moved in, I agreed to split
the electric bill in half with theCaldwells in the front house. But there's
two of them, Diane and Marshall, and only one of me until Allen
gets here, So I should payonly one third of the bill until then.
That seems fairer to me. Theyused more electricity than me and have
(13:03):
two cats. Karen, August fifth, nineteen eighty seven. Karen, I
will not debate the electric bill withyou. In the rental agreement you signed,
you agreed to pay half of theproperty's electric bill. I cannot measure
the amount of electricity used by youversus the amount of electricity used by the
(13:26):
Caldwells and their two cats. Readyour rental agreement, sincerely, Mark.
It was the summer of nineteen eightyseven, the Wreath of Franklin became the
first woman inducted into the Rock andRoll Hall of Fame. The Legend of
(13:48):
Zelda was released for Nintendo. Theworld population reached five billion, and in
Oakland, California, two teenage girlswere still settling in their first apartment August
eighth, nineteen eighty seven. DearMark, Well, I guess I've arrived.
The house doesn't seem quite as dreamyas I imagined. I think the
(14:11):
last tenants must have had bad feelingsabout this house because I can sense bad
spirits here. I've discussed this withmy guru, mister Samila Patell. He
is willing to exercise the bad spiritsin this house for two hundred and fifty
dollars as he is a good friendof mine. His regular fee is five
hundred dollars, so I've saved youfifty percent. Can I get you're okay
(14:35):
as soon as possible? Mister Pateltravels a lot, and we wouldn't want
to miss him. Ellen ps.Karen tells me your decorators in Venice tell
him he must see the bridge ofsize. It's beautiful, yours, Ellen,
August tenth, nineteen eighty seven.Dear Ellen, I know that you
(14:56):
and Karen have only recently arrived inthe Bay Area. I don't know what
the rental market is like where youcome from. It is possible that where
you come from, landlords normally payfor exorcisms. However, I can assure
you that the landlords in this areado not pay for exorcisms or any other
(15:18):
means of driving away bad spirits fromtheir property. If you speak to your
friends who've lived in this area forseveral years, they will confirm what I'm
saying is true. Sincerely, Mark, PS. I do not want you
to marblize the walls, or wallpaperprint or paint the walls either. Remember
(15:41):
the rental agreement you sign prohibits anyredecorating, altering, or remodeling of the
building by you without my prior writtenconsent. Mark, August fourteenth, nineteen
eighty seven. Dear Mark, yourequested that I should ask my friends if
you were justified in refusing to payfor exercising the bad spirits from my home,
(16:04):
and I did. Here's how theyvoted. Three people felt that my
request was unreasonable. Four people feltthat my request was reasonable. But you
were within your rights to refuse,including Karen. Two people felt that my
request was reasonable and you should havepaid. Two person felt that my request
(16:26):
was reasonable, and you are beingcompletely unreasonable. So it looks like my
friends agree with you. I'm goingto ask them again after the harmonic convergence.
I'll let you know if they've changedtheir mind. Ellen August fifteenth,
nineteen eighty seven. Dear Mark,I'll pay half the electric bill until Ellen
arrived, but I don't really thinkit's fair. You know, this house
(16:48):
only have one telephone outlet in thekitchen. I'd like another one in my
bedroom, and Ellen will probably alsowant one in her. The electric store
around the corner positively, a ricsays they can sell me a big roll
of telephone wire for five dollars.Will you pay the telephone company for the
installation of two extra telephones in ourbedrooms? Karen, August sixteenth, nineteen
(17:11):
eighty seven, dear Mark, gotsome bad news for you. My guru,
mister Patel has left the US.He's gone to a monastery in Sri
Lanka to meditate. I don't knowwhen he'll be back in California. There's
a civil war going on in SriLanka. There have already been attacks on
monasteries in Sri Lanka by heavily armedguerrillas. Guru Patel recommended another crew for
(17:36):
the exercising of the house spirits,a Guru Lahara. Unfortunately, I don't
have a personal relationship with Guru Leharra, so he's going to charge you the
full five hundred dollars. But don'tworry, I'm shopping around for a cheaper
guru. Do you know any bargainGurus Karen thinks this is all nonsense,
so please write to me about this, not her yours, Ellen, August
(18:02):
twenty fifth, nineteen eighty seven,Dear Mark, Guru Leharra has just informed
of the sad news that the monasterynear Trincomale, Sri Lanka, has been
attacked by communist guerrillas and gru Batelhas probably been killed. Guru Leharrah has
gone back to Sri Lanka to attendto matters and meditate. So temporarily I'm
going to have to put off theexercising of my house spirits. Although I
(18:26):
know you probably want to get thisover with almost as much as I do.
Temporarily, I'm going to try tolure the bad spirits from the house
by putting a spirit house in thegarden. The spirit house costs two hundred
dollars, plus the cost of foodand the gifts to be placed inside.
I'll understand if you don't want topay for this expense in addition to the
exorcism sometime later, Yours Ellen,you shouldn't blame yourself too much for this.
(18:52):
August thirtieth, nineteen eighty seven,Dear Mark, enclosed as our September
rent less the deduction for the spirithouse usual rent five hundred and ninety dollars
minus spirit house two hundred September rentthree hundred and fifty dollars. Karen says,
since three hundred and fifty dollars doesn'tdivide evenly by two, I'm paying
(19:17):
one hundred and ninety dollars and Karen'spaying one hundred and seventy dollars. Yours
Ellen, August thirty first, nineteeneighty seven, Dear Mark, there's a
man who looks over my fence witha strange look whenever I'm washing my fish.
Do you know if he is normal? Yours Ellen, September nineteenth,
(19:37):
nineteen eighty seven, Dear Mark,you shouldn't worry about making Allen cry.
She cries all the time. Youknow. I'm still waiting to get approval
from your decorator to wallpaper my house. Is he back yet from Venice.
It's too hard to wallpaper over allthese luvered closet doors, so I think
I'll just glue some nice fake furto them. What color would you suggest?
(20:00):
Oh? Could I get a checkfrom you for five hundred dollars as
an advance on the fabric and furand glue. Sincerely, Karen, September
twentieth, nineteen eighty seven. DearMark, I've found out that you gave
a VCR to the Caldwells. I'dlike a VCR and so at Ellen.
There's a VCR I saw at theGood Guys store in Berkeley that I liked.
(20:22):
It's three hundred and seventy dollars.The blue ones are four hundred and
fifty. I want a blue one. Ellen would like to get her VCR
before the autumnal equinox. Sincerely,Karen, December tenth, nineteen eighty seven.
Dear Mark, it's been a longtime since I wrote to you.
The repairman from Taylor Appliance never cameeven after we made an appointment, and
(20:48):
our oven still smells bad. Ithink there's a gas leak, but Ellen
says it smells like avocados. Ithink Ellen's wrong. You know, there's
a very big avocado tree to ourfront door, and I think Ellen's just
smelling the true. But Ellen saysshe can smell avocados when she sticks her
head into the oven, so shesays it's not a gas leak. What
(21:10):
do you think, yours? Karen, December sixteenth, nineteen eighty seven.
Dear Mark, we called in arepairman from Reliance Appliance to fix our stove.
He's a real genius. He smelledthe avocados too. He said that
gas never smells like avocados. Sohe moved to the oven and he found
(21:30):
a rotten avocado that fell behind thestove. The repairman charged me eighty five
dollars for the service call, whichI will deduct from a January rent.
Okay, yours, Karen. Throughoutreading the letters, the first of many
(21:52):
debates we had was or Karen andEllen really this dumb and demanding? Or
are they just fucking with Mark?And while hopefully none of us were quite
this dumb and demanding. At thatage, it was hard not to think
about all the crazy things we didthe first times we were living on our
own. My roommates and I oncetried to give our landlord giants tickets in
(22:18):
lieu of a deposit. We alsoused to feed the feral raccoons in our
backyard directly from our kitchen. Wewillingly let raccoons into our house. So
looking back, this is mortifyingly stupid, naive, insane, But at the
(22:38):
same time, at that age,with very little life experience, it seemed
reasonable or fun. So for abrief moment in reading these letters, we
figured that was most likely the case. Karen and Ellen either felt they were
reasonable or were having fun, butthen things escalated like a lot. The
(23:12):
Karen and Ellen letters are Found Correspondents, narrated by me Josh Hallmer and voiced
by Sarah Stapleton, Sarah Beth Kitchen, and Jeff Powell. This episode was
made possible by the following Patreon producers. Adrian A. Yellow, Amelia Hancock,
Amy Basel and et L, BenjaminChoppafong, Casey Jensen, Richardson,
(23:33):
Dana Keith, doctor Jill Cooper,Drew Vipond, Halle Reid, Jessica Elihotzik,
Gillian Natale, John O'Leary, Kendall, C, Kimberly k, Lauren
f Linley, tuscoff Manolas Boulakus,Megan cap Seawell, Mike Sherman, Nicole
and Dennis Henry, Sarah King,sc Shannon Foster, Shelley Brewer, Tuesday
Woodworth, Zach Ignatowitz, Warren,Beth McNally, John Comrie, Jordan Taylor,
(23:56):
Carley McNutt, Lana Sarah c andLydia Fiedler. If you'd like to
support the show, go to Patreondot com, Slash Studio both and.
This episode featured music by Everything JunkCity Rejects, Neon Coast Fifteen, Neon
Ryder, and Lee Rosevier, withfeatured music by Maria Taylor Hi
This is a studio both and productionwarning. Listening to this podcast may cause
on mitigating obsession and cognitive dissonance.All names have been changed to protect the
innocent, the insane, and everyoneelse in between. It was the summer
(00:35):
of two thousand and five. Ata Kinkos in downtown San Francisco. A
woman named Susan watched worn out pagesas they slid through a photocopier, like
they had so many times before,and like they would so many times again.
Just several blocks away, a guywho somewhat resembles me now was turning
(00:57):
twenty four. Hurricane Katrina had devastatedthe Gulf Coast, and I was devastated.
I'd spent the previous week watching thecity I had just moved from the
city I loved, the city fullof some of my closest friends, flooded,
looted, destroyed, and ignored.The night before my birthday, my
(01:19):
boyfriend, best friend and I satin silence in a wine bar, occasionally
choking up in conversation that existed merelyto coal the conversation we were avoiding.
At midnight, we chugged Beaujolais infront of a picture window that overlooked the
San Francisco Bay and out across toOakland and Berkeley, and we wondered where
(01:40):
our friends were. They were okay. We tried to find some bright spot.
We looked for some reason to smile, to laugh. Karen and Ellen
always have a way of finding youwhen you need them the most. It's
funny looking back now at how muchnot only my life has changed since that
(02:00):
faithful night, but also how Iview those letters, How a simple birthday
gift would change my life completely,how for years it would be about comedy,
and then mystery, which became obsession, and now finally community and perspective
(02:24):
and humanity. The many lives ofthese letters have all had such distinct and
different impacts on mine, and they'vealways come at just the right moments.
Like I said, Karen and Ellenalways find you just when you need them
the most, and they always bringwith them an ironic sense of wisdom and
awareness and maybe just the right amountof cognitive dissonance. This is the Karen
(02:52):
and Ellen Letters. It was thesummer of nineteen eighty seven, the Simpsons
(03:15):
made their first TV appearance, thestock market crashed, and perhaps not coincidentally,
Prozac made its American debut. Andmeanwhile, in Oakland, California,
two teenage girls were moving into theirvery first apartment July first, nineteen eighty
(03:36):
seven. Dear Mark, When Isigned the lease last week, I pointed
out the burned out light bulb inthe refrigerator. You said, if I
replaced it myself, I could deductthe cost from my next month's rent,
along with any other small expenses thatwere your responsibility. So I'm sending you
this list of things I plan willdeduct from my August rent less number one
one refrigerator light bulb two dollars two, oven light bulb two dollars. Three,
(04:01):
shed padlock eight dollars four, telephoneinstallation thirty seven dollars five telephone thirty
six dollars six, telephone extension cordnine dollars. Seven, hangers for closets
in bedrooms twelve dollars. Eight extrafront door keys, u okade six dollars
(04:21):
nine, fish food ten dollars ten, aljacide five dollars eleven, garden tools
sixteen dollars twelve, ice tray forfreezer two dollars thirteen, cleaning stuff forty
six dollars. Karen in two thousandand five, I received a strange and
(04:51):
life changing birthday present, a filefolder full of photocopied handwritten letters between two
ten send their landlord. I lookeda bit bewildered at the woman who handed
me the present, a woman namedSusan who I worked with at, ironically
enough, a law firm. Shejust smiled and said, trust me,
(05:13):
you need these, and she wasright in more ways than one. Little
did I know then that this folderwould lead to hours upon hours of hysterical
laughter and then a successful blog,followed by a live performance and an odd
eleven year journey to authenticate those letters. I launched The Karen and Ellen Letters
(05:35):
as a podcast back in twenty seventeen, at which point not much progress had
been made in actually finding out thetruth about the letters. But as we
recorded episode after episode, Sarah Stapleton, who plays Karen, became as obsessed
with finding out the truth as Iwas, and in real time, as
(05:56):
the podcast was airing, we reopenedmy investing into them and we started finding
answers, and those answers were oftenquite surprising and almost always a bit challenging.
Throughout the podcast, you'll hear theletters read by actors, and those
letters are read as they're written,Typos, misspellings, poor grammar, and
(06:18):
all of which there is a lot. And as we go along, I
imagine you'll find yourself debating whether ornot these could be real. And it
turns out the answer to that questionis as complicated as it is surprising.
July third, nineteen eighty seven,Dear Mark, List number two. One
(06:41):
Bay Cable Vision, Cable TV hookup fifty dollars. Two Bay Cable Vision
deposit fifty dollars. I will returnthis fifty dollars to you when I leave.
Three oven cleaner four dollars, fourbath rug thirty dollars, five electric
broom vacuum cleaner forty seven dollars.Karen, July ninth, nineteen eighty seven.
(07:05):
Dear Karen, I have received yourlists number one and two of expenses
you plan to deduct from your rent. You may deduct the cost of the
refrigerator and stove lightbulbs, the ovencleaner if the oven was dirty when you
moved in, and the keys andthe padlock, provided that you return the
(07:27):
padlock and its keys to me whenyou leave. I will not pay for
the other expenses because I do notbelieve that they could normally be considered a
landlord responsibility. I think you havebadly misunderstood me when I said you could
make small purchases and deduct them fromyour rent if I was responsible for them
in the future. Before you buyanything that you plan to deduct from your
(07:49):
rent, I think you should callme first and get my o k Mark.
July thirteenth, nineteen eighty seven.Dear Mark, got your letter.
I'd like to work out a dealwith you on my list of expenses.
So I'll pay for the cable TVstuff if you will pay for the phone
stuff, and I will pay forthe cleaning stuff if you will pay for
(08:09):
the vacuum cleaner, or we canjust split the expenses in halfs I'd like
to get the settled before Ellen arrivesnext month. Karen PS. A few
days ago, I was sitting onthe deck. When I stood up,
I tore my jeans that got caughton a nail in your deck. The
jeans costed forty two dollars. I'vesaved them so you can see them,
(08:31):
okay. July twenty first, nineteeneighty seven, dear Mark, Hello,
I'm just writing to let you knowhow much I'm looking forward to moving into
my new home. Karen has describedthe house to me, and it sounds
well dreamy. I know we willget along famously. As you know,
I'm an artist and i'm majoring aninterior design that you see. I'm looking
(08:54):
forward to trying out some of myideas on my new home. I'm leaving
money matters to Karen. Being anartist, I'm not as practical as she
is. I've been studying art inWashington this summer. One of the things
I've learned here is a new oiltransfer process for marbleizing walls and ceiling.
Of course, I'll check with youbefore doing any work on my walls,
(09:16):
but I know you'll just love it. I have a gauzy picture in my
mind of the house. Now Iknow that work imagination, and some financial
assistance from you, I can turnmy new home into an enchanted place.
Yours, Helen, July sixteenth,nineteen eighty seven. Karen, your expectations
(09:37):
that I'm going to pay for suchthings as your vacuum cleaner, your telephone,
and now your clothes is totally ridiculousand unrealistic on your part. I'm
sorry to be so blunt but mylast letter didn't seem to make my point
clear to you. My last letterwas not intended to be an author in
part of the continuing negotiation, likehaggling with a rug merch into a Persian
(10:00):
bazaar, but rather a simple statementof what I will and will not pay
for. As far as your genesare concerned, I can only advise you
that you look more carefully in thefuture where you sit. A deck is
designed to be walked upon, notsat upon. Sincerely, Mark, July
twenty third, nineteen eighty seven.Dear Mark, I didn't understand your letter.
(10:24):
I don't want to buy a rugin a Persian bazaar. I just
want you to pay for the stuffI talked about in my letters to you,
especially the cable TV deposit which isoverdue. Karen, PS. Good
news. I fixed my jeens,so now you don't have to pay for
them, okay. July twenty fourth, nineteen eighty seven. Karen, your
(10:46):
lease says that you are to payall utility bills except for garbage collection and
water. When I told you tocall pg any to transfer the gas and
electricity to your house, I didnot give you omission to have them send
the bill to me. I expresslytold you when you signed the lease that
you were to pay the gas andelectric bill. I don't know why you've
(11:09):
had the bills sent to me,but you should call pgn E immediately to
have them service transferred to your name, because I'm going to call them and
have it taken out of my name. As you know, I can't have
the service turned off since there's onlyone meter for yours and the Caldwell's electricity.
Karen, you've got to stop playinggames with me. My patience is
(11:31):
getting pretty stretched. Mark July twentyeighth, nineteen eighty seven. Karen,
when I wrote that I wasn't goingto haggle with you like a rug dealer
and a Persian bazzar or bizzar ifyou prefer, I meant that only as
(11:52):
a simile a figure of speech.I cannot be more blunt than I have
already been. I will only payfor those items I have expressly agreed to
pay for in my letters to you. As to the cable TV deposit,
Karen, you should know that thelandlord does not pay a deposit to his
tenant, but rather a tenant paysa deposit to a landlord. Mark Mark,
(12:18):
I'm very concerned about all these rats. Karen, August second, nineteen
eighty seven. Dear Mark, I'veasked a lot of my friends and they
tell me you're right about the cableTV deposit. My friends tell me that
landlords don't give deposits to their tenants. So I guess I'll just have to
(12:39):
pay for all the stuff on mylists myself now, since you won't.
There is one new item. WhenI moved in, I agreed to split
the electric bill in half with theCaldwells in the front house. But there's
two of them, Diane and Marshall, and only one of me until Allen
gets here, So I should payonly one third of the bill until then.
That seems fairer to me. Theyused more electricity than me and have
(13:03):
two cats. Karen, August fifth, nineteen eighty seven. Karen, I
will not debate the electric bill withyou. In the rental agreement you signed,
you agreed to pay half of theproperty's electric bill. I cannot measure
the amount of electricity used by youversus the amount of electricity used by the
(13:26):
Caldwells and their two cats. Readyour rental agreement, sincerely, Mark.
It was the summer of nineteen eightyseven, the Wreath of Franklin became the
first woman inducted into the Rock andRoll Hall of Fame. The Legend of
(13:48):
Zelda was released for Nintendo. Theworld population reached five billion, and in
Oakland, California, two teenage girlswere still settling in their first apartment August
eighth, nineteen eighty seven. DearMark, Well, I guess I've arrived.
The house doesn't seem quite as dreamyas I imagined. I think the
(14:11):
last tenants must have had bad feelingsabout this house because I can sense bad
spirits here. I've discussed this withmy guru, mister Samila Patell. He
is willing to exercise the bad spiritsin this house for two hundred and fifty
dollars as he is a good friendof mine. His regular fee is five
hundred dollars, so I've saved youfifty percent. Can I get you're okay
(14:35):
as soon as possible? Mister Pateltravels a lot, and we wouldn't want
to miss him. Ellen ps.Karen tells me your decorators in Venice tell
him he must see the bridge ofsize. It's beautiful, yours, Ellen,
August tenth, nineteen eighty seven.Dear Ellen, I know that you
(14:56):
and Karen have only recently arrived inthe Bay Area. I don't know what
the rental market is like where youcome from. It is possible that where
you come from, landlords normally payfor exorcisms. However, I can assure
you that the landlords in this areado not pay for exorcisms or any other
(15:18):
means of driving away bad spirits fromtheir property. If you speak to your
friends who've lived in this area forseveral years, they will confirm what I'm
saying is true. Sincerely, Mark, PS. I do not want you
to marblize the walls, or wallpaperprint or paint the walls either. Remember
(15:41):
the rental agreement you sign prohibits anyredecorating, altering, or remodeling of the
building by you without my prior writtenconsent. Mark, August fourteenth, nineteen
eighty seven. Dear Mark, yourequested that I should ask my friends if
you were justified in refusing to payfor exercising the bad spirits from my home,
(16:04):
and I did. Here's how theyvoted. Three people felt that my
request was unreasonable. Four people feltthat my request was reasonable. But you
were within your rights to refuse,including Karen. Two people felt that my
request was reasonable and you should havepaid. Two person felt that my request
(16:26):
was reasonable, and you are beingcompletely unreasonable. So it looks like my
friends agree with you. I'm goingto ask them again after the harmonic convergence.
I'll let you know if they've changedtheir mind. Ellen August fifteenth,
nineteen eighty seven. Dear Mark,I'll pay half the electric bill until Ellen
arrived, but I don't really thinkit's fair. You know, this house
(16:48):
only have one telephone outlet in thekitchen. I'd like another one in my
bedroom, and Ellen will probably alsowant one in her. The electric store
around the corner positively, a ricsays they can sell me a big roll
of telephone wire for five dollars.Will you pay the telephone company for the
installation of two extra telephones in ourbedrooms? Karen, August sixteenth, nineteen
(17:11):
eighty seven, dear Mark, gotsome bad news for you. My guru,
mister Patel has left the US.He's gone to a monastery in Sri
Lanka to meditate. I don't knowwhen he'll be back in California. There's
a civil war going on in SriLanka. There have already been attacks on
monasteries in Sri Lanka by heavily armedguerrillas. Guru Patel recommended another crew for
(17:36):
the exercising of the house spirits,a Guru Lahara. Unfortunately, I don't
have a personal relationship with Guru Leharra, so he's going to charge you the
full five hundred dollars. But don'tworry, I'm shopping around for a cheaper
guru. Do you know any bargainGurus Karen thinks this is all nonsense,
so please write to me about this, not her yours, Ellen, August
(18:02):
twenty fifth, nineteen eighty seven,Dear Mark, Guru Leharra has just informed
of the sad news that the monasterynear Trincomale, Sri Lanka, has been
attacked by communist guerrillas and gru Batelhas probably been killed. Guru Leharrah has
gone back to Sri Lanka to attendto matters and meditate. So temporarily I'm
going to have to put off theexercising of my house spirits. Although I
(18:26):
know you probably want to get thisover with almost as much as I do.
Temporarily, I'm going to try tolure the bad spirits from the house
by putting a spirit house in thegarden. The spirit house costs two hundred
dollars, plus the cost of foodand the gifts to be placed inside.
I'll understand if you don't want topay for this expense in addition to the
exorcism sometime later, Yours Ellen,you shouldn't blame yourself too much for this.
(18:52):
August thirtieth, nineteen eighty seven,Dear Mark, enclosed as our September
rent less the deduction for the spirithouse usual rent five hundred and ninety dollars
minus spirit house two hundred September rentthree hundred and fifty dollars. Karen says,
since three hundred and fifty dollars doesn'tdivide evenly by two, I'm paying
(19:17):
one hundred and ninety dollars and Karen'spaying one hundred and seventy dollars. Yours
Ellen, August thirty first, nineteeneighty seven, Dear Mark, there's a
man who looks over my fence witha strange look whenever I'm washing my fish.
Do you know if he is normal? Yours Ellen, September nineteenth,
(19:37):
nineteen eighty seven, Dear Mark,you shouldn't worry about making Allen cry.
She cries all the time. Youknow. I'm still waiting to get approval
from your decorator to wallpaper my house. Is he back yet from Venice.
It's too hard to wallpaper over allthese luvered closet doors, so I think
I'll just glue some nice fake furto them. What color would you suggest?
(20:00):
Oh? Could I get a checkfrom you for five hundred dollars as
an advance on the fabric and furand glue. Sincerely, Karen, September
twentieth, nineteen eighty seven. DearMark, I've found out that you gave
a VCR to the Caldwells. I'dlike a VCR and so at Ellen.
There's a VCR I saw at theGood Guys store in Berkeley that I liked.
(20:22):
It's three hundred and seventy dollars.The blue ones are four hundred and
fifty. I want a blue one. Ellen would like to get her VCR
before the autumnal equinox. Sincerely,Karen, December tenth, nineteen eighty seven.
Dear Mark, it's been a longtime since I wrote to you.
The repairman from Taylor Appliance never cameeven after we made an appointment, and
(20:48):
our oven still smells bad. Ithink there's a gas leak, but Ellen
says it smells like avocados. Ithink Ellen's wrong. You know, there's
a very big avocado tree to ourfront door, and I think Ellen's just
smelling the true. But Ellen saysshe can smell avocados when she sticks her
head into the oven, so shesays it's not a gas leak. What
(21:10):
do you think, yours? Karen, December sixteenth, nineteen eighty seven.
Dear Mark, we called in arepairman from Reliance Appliance to fix our stove.
He's a real genius. He smelledthe avocados too. He said that
gas never smells like avocados. Sohe moved to the oven and he found
(21:30):
a rotten avocado that fell behind thestove. The repairman charged me eighty five
dollars for the service call, whichI will deduct from a January rent.
Okay, yours, Karen. Throughoutreading the letters, the first of many
(21:52):
debates we had was or Karen andEllen really this dumb and demanding? Or
are they just fucking with Mark?And while hopefully none of us were quite
this dumb and demanding. At thatage, it was hard not to think
about all the crazy things we didthe first times we were living on our
own. My roommates and I oncetried to give our landlord giants tickets in
(22:18):
lieu of a deposit. We alsoused to feed the feral raccoons in our
backyard directly from our kitchen. Wewillingly let raccoons into our house. So
looking back, this is mortifyingly stupid, naive, insane, But at the
(22:38):
same time, at that age,with very little life experience, it seemed
reasonable or fun. So for abrief moment in reading these letters, we
figured that was most likely the case. Karen and Ellen either felt they were
reasonable or were having fun, butthen things escalated like a lot. The
(23:12):
Karen and Ellen letters are Found Correspondents, narrated by me Josh Hallmer and voiced
by Sarah Stapleton, Sarah Beth Kitchen, and Jeff Powell. This episode was
made possible by the following Patreon producers. Adrian A. Yellow, Amelia Hancock,
Amy Basel and et L, BenjaminChoppafong, Casey Jensen, Richardson,
(23:33):
Dana Keith, doctor Jill Cooper,Drew Vipond, Halle Reid, Jessica Elihotzik,
Gillian Natale, John O'Leary, Kendall, C, Kimberly k, Lauren
f Linley, tuscoff Manolas Boulakus,Megan cap Seawell, Mike Sherman, Nicole
and Dennis Henry, Sarah King,sc Shannon Foster, Shelley Brewer, Tuesday
Woodworth, Zach Ignatowitz, Warren,Beth McNally, John Comrie, Jordan Taylor,
(23:56):
Carley McNutt, Lana Sarah c andLydia Fiedler. If you'd like to
support the show, go to Patreondot com, Slash Studio both and.
This episode featured music by Everything JunkCity Rejects, Neon Coast Fifteen, Neon
Ryder, and Lee Rosevier, withfeatured music by Maria Taylor Hi
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