September 21, 2023 • 29 mins
In 2006, Josh begins to find evidence that three of the letter-writers actually exist.
In 1988, the girls celebrate a milestone, Karen and Mark find themselves at an impasse, and Mark finds joy in an unlikely place.
The Karen & Ellen Letters are found correspondence.
Narrated and produced by: Josh Hallmark.
Starring: Sara Stapleton, Sara Kitcher, Jeff Powell, and Benjamin Watkins.
This is a Studio BOTH/AND production: www.truecrimebullshit.com / www.bothand.fyi
For an ad-free experience: www.patreon.com/studiobothand
Music by:
In 1988, the girls celebrate a milestone, Karen and Mark find themselves at an impasse, and Mark finds joy in an unlikely place.
The Karen & Ellen Letters are found correspondence.
Narrated and produced by: Josh Hallmark.
Starring: Sara Stapleton, Sara Kitcher, Jeff Powell, and Benjamin Watkins.
This is a Studio BOTH/AND production: www.truecrimebullshit.com / www.bothand.fyi
For an ad-free experience: www.patreon.com/studiobothand
Music by:
- Everything
- Topaz White
- Retro Chillwave
- Droid Bishop
- Channel 13
- Icarus
- Neon Lights
Patreon producers: Adrienne Aiello, Amelia Hancock, Amy Basil, Annette L, Benjamin Cioppa-Fong, Casey Jensen-Richardson, Dana Keith, Dr. Jill Cooper, Drew Vipond, Hallie Reed, Jessica Alihodzic, Jillian Natale, John O’Leary, Kendall C, Kimberly K, Lauren F, Lynnlie Tuschoff, Manolis Boulukos, Meggan Capps-Seawel, Mike Sherman, Nicole & Dennis Henry, Sarah King, SC, Shannon Foster, Shelly Brewer, Tuesdi Woodworth, Zack Ignatowicz Warren, Beth McNally, John Comrie, Jordan Taylor, Karli McNutt, Lana, Sara Cee, Lydia Fiedler
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:09):
This is a studio both And production. If you'd like to support this show
and get ad free episodes for aslittle as two dollars a month, go
to patreon dot com slash both and. Warning, listening to this podcast may
(00:30):
cause on mitigating obsession and cognitive dissonance. All names have been changed to protect
the innocent, the insane, andeveryone else in between. It was still
the summer of nineteen eighty eight.Puffed sleeves and nit Fedora's walked the runways.
(00:55):
Who framed Roger Rabbit was playing intheaters? Sunny Bono was elected mayor
of Palm Springs in Oakland, California. Two teenage girls were celebrating the anniversary
of their so called independence July first, nineteen eighty eight, dear Mark,
(01:17):
I can hardly believe it, buttoday makes one year since Karen and me
moved into this little house. I'mjust writing to say happy anniversary to us
and you and you too. Ithought you might be interested in knowing that
I've changed my major. I've decidedto become a school teacher, just like
Karen, your tenant, Ellen,dear Mark, Today makes one year since
(01:41):
I moved in here. I shouldbe getting a check from you soon,
I think, for interest on myseven hundred dollars security deposit yours Karen.
Contained within the Karen and Ellen lettersis a photocopy of a document. It's
something that Mark dug up after thegirls moved out of the cottage, which
seemed to indicate that Mark was doinghis own investigation into and keeping tabs on
(02:07):
Karen and Ellen long after they leftCalifornia. And I knew that if I
could track that document down in thereal world, in its original form,
it would prove that at least Karenand her boyfriend Rob actually existed. It
could also help to authenticate many ofthe events mentioned in the letters. And
(02:28):
if there was any place I couldfind this document, it was in Portland,
Oregon. So while I was livingthere, I spent about a month
going to various libraries and offices,until eventually, in a dark corner and
a quiet library on a microfiche,I found not the document in question,
but one that corroborated it, Andit seemed to indicate that Karen and Rob
(02:53):
were real people who really lived inOregon and who really got into some really
big trouble there. July third,nineteen eighty eight, Dear Karen, I
do pay interest on security deposits,even though I'm not legally required to do
(03:14):
so. I send out checks inlate December every year. You will get
your check for eighteen months occupancy byJanuary first, nineteen eighty nine, at
six percent a year. Mark,July fifth, nineteen eighty eight, Mark,
six percent interest isn't fair, andyou know it. On the back
(03:37):
of this letter, I've glued onan advertisingment. It shows that thirty four
point four percent a year is therate others are paying. I figure my
seven hundred dollars deposit at thirty fourpoint four percent means I should get a
check from you for three hundred andsixteen dollars and some odd sense. Yours,
Karen, July fifth, nineteen eightyeight, Mark, I've been studying
(04:00):
your handwriting. My guess is thatyou are an aries. Like most aries.
I think you think about money alot and are good at math,
although Karen tells me that you makea lot of mistakes in your math.
The way you cross t's without liftingyour pen from the paper indicates that you
had unhappiness in your childhood, possiblya lot of quarreling or the death of
(04:23):
a parent. When you were youngor something like that. How did I
do? Ellen, July eighth,nineteen eighty eight, Dear Karen, I
am looking at the ad you sentme. My Dear Karen, No matter
what you may believe to the contrary, I'm not a mutual fund, Nor
(04:46):
am I IBM GE or McDonald's.May I remind you that I'm not required
by law or the terms of yourlease to pay you any interest on your
security deposit since Ceerly Mark, Julyeleventh, nineteen eighty eight, Mark,
I think you were joking when yousaid you're not a mutual fund anyway.
(05:10):
Why should I get six percent interestif everyone else is paying thirty four point
four percent? Yours, Karen,July eleventh, nineteen eighty eight. Dear
Karen, I've shown copies of yourrecent letters to my uncle Albert, who
is a professor of law at SuffolkUniversity in Boston, for his legal opinion
(05:30):
on the issue of jurisdiction. I'veenclosed a copy of this letter to me
with this letter to you. Sincemy uncle Albert has been a professor of
law since before you were born,I think it would be reasonable for me
to assume that he probably knows moreabout this issue of jurisdiction than your boyfriend,
(05:51):
who is only quote thinking of applyingto Tufts University Law School, especially
as specially considering that my uncle saysthat Tufts has no last school's Mark July
(06:12):
seventh, nineteen eighty eight. DearMark, it is good to hear from
you, although I am sorry tohear that you are having a little difficulty
with one of your tenants. Youare absolutely right about the rent control law
of Berkeley that applies only to apartmentsin Berkeley. It does not make any
difference where the landlord lives, andit does not make any difference where the
tenant came from. The only thingthat matters is where the apartment is.
If the apartment is in Berkeley,the Berkeley rent control law applies. The
(06:35):
apartment is not in Berkeley, theBerkeley rent control law does not apply.
From what you have said, yourtenant seems to be a very nice young
woman, so I am surprised thatshe has not been able to understand this
yet. I think you should encourageher to speak to the people at the
Berkeley rent board, but to besure to tell them that the apartment is
in Oakland. She tells them thatthey will have to tell her that they
have no jurisdiction at all. Incidentally, Tufts University, which is near Boston,
(06:57):
has a very good reputation, butit does not have a law school.
I do hope that things are goingwell with you, and that you
and your tenant will get along betterafter she realizes that you are charging her
a perfectly legal amount of rent.Best regards from your uncle, Albert.
July thirteenth, nineteen eighty eight.Dear Karen, I know many other landlords,
and I belong to several landlord tradeassociations. I can assure you that
(07:24):
quote everyone is not paying thirty fourpoint four percent interest on tenants security deposits.
Sincerely, Mark, July fifteenth,nineteen eighty eight. Mark, my
boyfriend went back to the Berkeley RentControl Board because they didn't call him back.
They said that if a landlord claimsto be exempt from the Berkeley rent
(07:45):
Control law, he has to fillout a petition form. He picked up
a copy of the form for yourconvenience, and I've enclosed it. If
you fill out this form and sendit to the Berkeley Rent Board, they'll
tell you if you're exempt. YoursKaren. July sixteenth, nineteen eighty eight.
Dear Outbert, thanks for your letter. Time will tell if it works.
(08:09):
I've set a copye after Karen.If I had received the letter you
wrote, I would have taken umbrageat a blatantly patronizing and condescending tone of
the letter. I would have feltyou were being sycophantic and even obseque with.
However, since Karen cannot spell orcomprehend the meaning of multi syllabic words,
(08:33):
it's difficult she will feel the sameway. Thanks Mark, July nineteenth,
nineteen eighty eight. Dear Karen,I'm not going to apply for exemption
from Berkeley's rent control law or fillout any forms your house is in Oakland.
(08:56):
Although it's foolish on my part,I still have hopes, however small,
but you will eventually come to understandthe concept of jurisdiction. Remember,
if you bring any legal action againstme, either through the courts or the
(09:16):
Berkeley Rent Control Board, to complywith Berkeley's rent law, I will affect
you right Sincerely, work. Itwas still the summer of nineteen eighty eight.
(09:41):
The Land before Time was playing intheaters. The Olympics were being held
in Seoul, South Korea. TheUS was deep in the midst of the
Iran Contra scandal, and in Oakland, California, two teenage girls were about
to encounter some very big life change. Jews July twenty third, nineteen eighty
(10:03):
eight, Mark, I went tothe ASUC Renter Assistance Project for advice.
I showed them all my letters toyou and yours to me. They laughed
when they read them. I thinkthey thought your arguments were ridiculous. Anyway.
They told me I haven't got acase. They said that jurisdiction is
a real loophole or something like that. About the interest on my deposit,
(10:28):
what would you say to splitting thedifference in half? I want thirty four
percent, You want six percent.Thirty four plus six equals forty divided by
two equals twenty. So how doestwenty percent a year sound to you?
Yours, Karen, July twenty seventh, nineteen eighty eight, Dear Karen,
(10:52):
I pay the going rate of intereston security deposits. Most landlords who do
pay interest on deposits, and manydo not pay around six percent. Banks
are paying six percent on passbook accounts. Treasury bills pay around six percent,
CDs pay around six percent. Ipay around six percent. Sincerely Mark.
(11:20):
For several years, after finding evidencethat Rob and Karen could be real,
I unsuccessfully tried to track down Ellen. Her name was so common that even
when I narrowed searches down to theplaces I believed she was most likely to
be, there were dozens of Ellen'swho shared her full name. I spent
(11:41):
hours deep diving Facebook, MySpace,and even various new age message boards and
chat rooms with no luck. Alsoincluded in marks stack of letters was a
copy of an old op ed aboutpolice dogs that was apparently written by Ellen,
and I couldn't even find that.Granted, it was twenty five years
(12:03):
old at the time, and mostnewspapers are still to this day working on
digitizing their archives, but it justseemed odd that I could find no trace
of Ellen anywhere in the real world. And even after my successes in finding
evidence of Mark, Karen, andRob, I started to again question how
(12:24):
real the letters could actually be.Perhaps they were just factual events manipulated into
fiction, but even that didn't makesense to what end. I left Portland
in two thousand and nine and movedback to San Francisco, and the letters
(12:45):
once again sat dormant in a boxin a closet. A year later,
I got a job offer in Seattle, and so, once again, in
a new city full of new faces, the Karen and Ellen letters were resorted.
But this time we went big.Karen and Ellen, we're about to
(13:07):
have their first brush with fame.August first, nineteen eighty eight, Mark,
I accidentally broke the vacuum cleaner yougave me when I was cleaning out
the refrigerator. Can I have anotherone soon? Karen? August fourth,
(13:28):
nineteen eighty eight, Dear Karen,Why, why? And how did you
use an upright vacuum cleaner to cleanthe refrigerator? How did the vacuum get
broken? I know it would bewiser for me not to ask you this,
(13:54):
but frankly, my curiosity has gottenthe better over my judgment. Oh
August eighth, nineteen eighty eight.Dear Mark, I didn't want to tell
you how I broke the vacuum cleanerbecause it might sound silly to you,
and I wouldn't want you to thinkI was stupid or something. Well,
(14:16):
I was going to clean out therefrigerator and when I pulled out the vegetable
tray. There was the screen slimystuff on the bottom. I didn't want
to touch it because it looked toodisgusting, so I thought I could just
vacuum it up. I check outthe shelves because it's hard to get an
upright vacuum cleaner into the refrigerator.Well, as soon as the vacuum sucked
up the green slimy stuff the underand the vacuum burned out, I guess
(14:37):
I shouldn't vacuum green slimy stuff.Can I get another one soon? Yours,
Karen, August twelfth, nineteen eightyeight. Dear Karum, landlords are
not required by law to give tenantsvacuum cleaners. Most do not. Considering
(14:58):
that you only had the vacuum cleanerfor two months and it was brand new
when you got it, and consideringhow you broke it, I am not
going to give you another one.Sincerely, Mark, August fifteenth, nineteen
eighty eight. Mark, does thismean I'm going to have to pay for
the next vacuum cleaner myself? Karen, August twenty first, nineteen eighty eight.
(15:24):
Mark, your letter was the laststraw that broke the Camel's back.
Anyway, I'm leaving. This isyour thirty day notice. I'm not going
to take this anymore. What kindof fool do you think I am?
Anyway? Your letters make me feellike an idiot. All I want is
what I've got coming to me.Allen says she's going to stay. Karen,
(15:46):
August twenty second, nineteen eighty eight. Dear Mark, I'd like a
letter of recommendation from you that Ican show to other landlords so I can
find in an apartment, which willbe easier if I have a letter of
recommendation from you that I can showto other landlords when I try to find
an apartment. Yours, Karen,August twenty fourth, nineteen eighty eight.
(16:08):
To whom it may concern, Karenhas been a tenant of mine for the
past fifteen months. Through my meetings, phone calls, and correspondence with her,
I have come to know Karen quitewell. I can say without hesitation
that in my twenty years in thisbusiness, I have never had a tenant
(16:34):
of Karen's caliber or mental equal.Karen has always kept her house neat and
clean, and to the best ofmy knowledge, has never made excessive noise
or disturbed her neighbors. I amconfident that anyone who rents an apartment to
(16:57):
Karen will quickly be struck with her. Many unique qualities we tarre too numerous
to fully cover in this letter.Very sincerely, Mark, August twenty eight,
nineteen eighty eight. Dear Mark,your letter of recommendation almost made me
(17:21):
cry. It's so beautiful. Thankyou so much. I may have been
a little harsh with you over thelast few months. I've been having a
bad time. I'm dropping out ofUC Berkeley. My advisor says I should
reconsider being a school teacher, andmy boyfriend didn't get into Tufts. I'm
probably going back to Oregon. Mydaddy says, you can get me a
(17:45):
job at at a genetic engineering labor something in Portland where they make viruses
and bacteria and stuff like that.It sounds very exciting and the pay is
terrifical, and it sounds like funtoo. Bye Yours, Karen, September
fourth, nineteen eighty eight, DearMark, I'm going to leave here at
(18:07):
the end of this month. Ihaven't had much luck finding a roommate,
and I can't afford the rent bymyself on my allowance alone thought I found
a roommate, a woman named Alice. She's a language major and speaks affluent
German. I decided not to takeher for three reasons. First, Alice
is a scorpio, and you knowwhat that means. Second, Karen tells
(18:30):
me that she heard that German isa gutter language and that sounds like bad
karma to me. I wish Icould find someone just like Karen, but
she's really one of a kind.I'll miss her. You can start showing
this house anytime after September fifth.To new tenants, Ellen, September eighth,
nineteen eighty eight, dear Mark,Karen and her boyfriend are going back
(18:52):
to Portland next week to get marked. Then they will be going to Calcutta
for a month on their honeymoon.My new guru says, Calcutta hasn't been
discovered by tourists yet. Anyway,this means I'll be taking care of the
security deposit refund for both of us, since Karen won't be here. Has
somebody called you from the ASUC rentHe Assistance Project? Karen says, somebody
(19:15):
there is telling people that she's crazy. Can you imagine? We don't know
who's saying it. But Karen saysthat allegations are being made against her,
and she's going to find the alligator. If you know who it is,
please let us know yours, Ellen, September ninth, nineteen eighty eight,
Dear Albert, I am beginning tounderstand Karen's logic, and this worries me.
(19:41):
Furthermore, I am beginning to agreewith her logic, and this worries
me even more. In my legalopinion, we know that a donation is
made by a donor, an interrogationis conducted by an interrogator. There Go
it must follow an allegation is madeby an alligator. Karen's logic seems perfectly
(20:07):
reasonable to me. Do I geta passing grade? Mark? September tenth,
nineteen eighty eight. Dear Mark,I'm a volunteer worker with a Bush
for President campaign. They suggested thatI could be of help to Bush by
writing letters to people I already knewat home, rather than working at their
office. Anyway, I'm writing toyou to ask you to vote for George
(20:30):
Bush. I've done a lot ofthinking about the selection, which is my
first Anyway, I think you shouldvote for Bush for these five reasons.
Number one, George Bush has sixletters in his first name and four letters
in his last name, both evennumbers. Michael Ducaccus has seven letters and
(20:51):
both his first and last names anodd number. Of course, seven plus
seven equals fourteen, which is even, but it doesn't work that way.
Number two Bush is a Gemini,but Ducoccus is a Scorpio, and you
know what that means. Quayle andBenson are both Aquarians, so that doesn't
mean anything. Number three Bush isa Republican. Number four Ducaccus is a
(21:15):
Democrat. I'm sure that once youconsider these important issues, you will vote
for George Bush along with Karen roband me. Yours, Ellen, September
twelfth, nineteen eighty eight, DearEllen, thank you for your recent letter
with your lists of reasons why Ishould vote for George Bush for president.
(21:38):
The reasons you listed are as goodand perhaps better than any other reasons I
have heard thus far. Four votingfor mister Bush, you may rest assure
that I will give your recommendation allthe consideration it deserves. Sincerely, markup,
(22:00):
Mber thirteenth, nineteen eighty eight.Dear Mark, the good thing about
yom Kipper is that it's coming encourageshardcore procrastinators like me to write some of
the letters we have written on ourminds over and over. The Karen and
Allen letters are unbelievable. I haveshowed them to Benji, Michael, and
Adam, and I will show themto Leon when I see him. I
have also shown select ones to someof my colleagues, who must also think
your arguments are ridiculous, for theyalso laughed. I've really learned a great
(22:22):
deal from them that I might neverhave known without them. Some of it
a little disquieting, for example,that gutter languages can place bad karma.
My previous tenants spoke Hebrew, whichalso has some of the same sounds that
make German a gutter language. Perhapsthat explains the karma in my place.
My nineteen o six printing of aneighteen ninety seven edition of Webster's Dictionary lists
three interesting words escaper, a tender, and a ledger. In the next
(22:45):
edition, escaper is retained, butis said to be used mostly for prisoners
of war. For other prisoners whoescaped, the word does now escape b
although this really sounds offensive to mebecause the prison is really the escape e.
While the person who escapes ought tobe called the escaper. The word
attend has been dropped and replaced withattendee, which also sounds wrong and offensive
to my ear. A ledger hasbeen dropped without being replaced at all.
(23:07):
There has been a void in thelanguage until now. Ellen's replacement is not
only not offensive to my ear,but it even sounds better than the original
a ledger. Perhaps if we spellit alligator with an e instead of an
eye, it might be picked upfor the next edition of Webster's Best Regards.
Albert ps. The word Perfect spellingprogram accepts a tender and a ledger,
but not a scaper or attendee.What a state of affairs. September
(23:30):
fourteenth, nineteen eighty eight. DearMark, I may have good news for
you, or I may not.Karen had a really big fight with her
father and maybe moving back here.Karen's father controls her trust fund until she's
twenty five, and he says hewon't let her have any money to go
to Calcutta on her honeymoon. He'strying to make Karen go to Paris,
(23:52):
France instead. He's an old democrat, you know. Anyway, Karen says
Paris has already discovered Touris years agotoo. I know that you need to
know if I'm leaving or staying.I don't know how serious Karen is about
moving back here. There may benothing to all this, but on the
other hand, there may not.Yours, Ellen, September nineteenth, nineteen
(24:17):
eighty eight, Dear Mark, Karengave in to her father, so she's
going to have to go to Parison her honeymoon instead of Calcutta. He's
even having her stay at the RitzHotel too. After Paris, Karen's father
is making her go to Venice onthe Orient Express, which is an old
train. He's being a real tyrant, if you ask me, ruining Karen's
(24:37):
honeymoon. Yours, Ellen, Septembereighteenth, nineteen eighty eight, Dear Albert,
I look forward to Karen's trip toParis and Allen's report from the trip.
I have observed that while Karen misspellseven one syllabled words, Ellen misspells
(24:57):
words far less frequently, and usuallyonly words of French origin, such as
gorilla for gorilla, exercise for exorcise, affluent for fluent, gutter for gutter
roll. Of course, this couldjust be a coincidence. We will see.
(25:22):
We will see. Mark, UncleAlbert was right. The Karen and
Ellen letters were unbelievable, or maybethey were so unbelievable that they actually became
believable, like they were just toocrazy to be fake. And I did
(25:45):
notice nuanced changes and the letters astime went on. For example, once
Karen moved out, Mark seemed muchmore playful and humored by Ellen's letters,
as though a burden had been liftedofficial. He and Ellen would even strike
up a surprising bond, and foras much as Mark seemed to try to
(26:06):
hide it, you could tell thathe was actually starting to care for Ellen,
who again was the only one Icould find no evidence of in the
real world. But Mark's eyes wouldquickly be shaken, because, as with
all Karen's our Karen wouldn't be silentfor long. The Karen and Ellen Letters
(26:36):
are Found Correspondents narrated by me JoshHallmark and voiced by Sarah Stapleton, Sarah
Kitcher, Jeff Powell, and BenjaminWatkins. This episode was made possible by
the following Patreon producers Adrian I Yellow, Amelia Hancock, Amy Basil, and
net L Benjamin Choppa Thong, CaseyJensen, Richardson, Dana Keith, Doctor
(26:56):
Jill Cooper, Drew Vipond, HalleReid, Jessica Alahode, Jillian Natale,
John O'Leary, Kendall, C Kimberly, k Lauren f Linley, tuscoff Manolas
Bulachus, megancap Seewell, Mike Sherman, Nicole and Dennis Henry, Sarah King,
sc Shannon Foster, Shelley Brewer,Tuesday Woodworth, Zach Ignottowitz, Warren,
Beth McNally, John Comrie, JordanTaylor, Carley McNutt, Lana Sarah
(27:18):
Ce and Lydia Fiedler. If you'dlike to support the show, go to
Patreon, dot com, Slash Studioboth and. This episode featured music by
Jay Eighties, Topaz White, Retro, Chilway, Droid, Bishop, Channel
thirteen, Neon Lights, Icarus,and Everything High
This is a studio both And production. If you'd like to support this show
and get ad free episodes for aslittle as two dollars a month, go
to patreon dot com slash both and. Warning, listening to this podcast may
(00:30):
cause on mitigating obsession and cognitive dissonance. All names have been changed to protect
the innocent, the insane, andeveryone else in between. It was still
the summer of nineteen eighty eight.Puffed sleeves and nit Fedora's walked the runways.
(00:55):
Who framed Roger Rabbit was playing intheaters? Sunny Bono was elected mayor
of Palm Springs in Oakland, California. Two teenage girls were celebrating the anniversary
of their so called independence July first, nineteen eighty eight, dear Mark,
(01:17):
I can hardly believe it, buttoday makes one year since Karen and me
moved into this little house. I'mjust writing to say happy anniversary to us
and you and you too. Ithought you might be interested in knowing that
I've changed my major. I've decidedto become a school teacher, just like
Karen, your tenant, Ellen,dear Mark, Today makes one year since
(01:41):
I moved in here. I shouldbe getting a check from you soon,
I think, for interest on myseven hundred dollars security deposit yours Karen.
Contained within the Karen and Ellen lettersis a photocopy of a document. It's
something that Mark dug up after thegirls moved out of the cottage, which
seemed to indicate that Mark was doinghis own investigation into and keeping tabs on
(02:07):
Karen and Ellen long after they leftCalifornia. And I knew that if I
could track that document down in thereal world, in its original form,
it would prove that at least Karenand her boyfriend Rob actually existed. It
could also help to authenticate many ofthe events mentioned in the letters. And
(02:28):
if there was any place I couldfind this document, it was in Portland,
Oregon. So while I was livingthere, I spent about a month
going to various libraries and offices,until eventually, in a dark corner and
a quiet library on a microfiche,I found not the document in question,
but one that corroborated it, Andit seemed to indicate that Karen and Rob
(02:53):
were real people who really lived inOregon and who really got into some really
big trouble there. July third,nineteen eighty eight, Dear Karen, I
do pay interest on security deposits,even though I'm not legally required to do
(03:14):
so. I send out checks inlate December every year. You will get
your check for eighteen months occupancy byJanuary first, nineteen eighty nine, at
six percent a year. Mark,July fifth, nineteen eighty eight, Mark,
six percent interest isn't fair, andyou know it. On the back
(03:37):
of this letter, I've glued onan advertisingment. It shows that thirty four
point four percent a year is therate others are paying. I figure my
seven hundred dollars deposit at thirty fourpoint four percent means I should get a
check from you for three hundred andsixteen dollars and some odd sense. Yours,
Karen, July fifth, nineteen eightyeight, Mark, I've been studying
(04:00):
your handwriting. My guess is thatyou are an aries. Like most aries.
I think you think about money alot and are good at math,
although Karen tells me that you makea lot of mistakes in your math.
The way you cross t's without liftingyour pen from the paper indicates that you
had unhappiness in your childhood, possiblya lot of quarreling or the death of
(04:23):
a parent. When you were youngor something like that. How did I
do? Ellen, July eighth,nineteen eighty eight, Dear Karen, I
am looking at the ad you sentme. My Dear Karen, No matter
what you may believe to the contrary, I'm not a mutual fund, Nor
(04:46):
am I IBM GE or McDonald's.May I remind you that I'm not required
by law or the terms of yourlease to pay you any interest on your
security deposit since Ceerly Mark, Julyeleventh, nineteen eighty eight, Mark,
I think you were joking when yousaid you're not a mutual fund anyway.
(05:10):
Why should I get six percent interestif everyone else is paying thirty four point
four percent? Yours, Karen,July eleventh, nineteen eighty eight. Dear
Karen, I've shown copies of yourrecent letters to my uncle Albert, who
is a professor of law at SuffolkUniversity in Boston, for his legal opinion
(05:30):
on the issue of jurisdiction. I'veenclosed a copy of this letter to me
with this letter to you. Sincemy uncle Albert has been a professor of
law since before you were born,I think it would be reasonable for me
to assume that he probably knows moreabout this issue of jurisdiction than your boyfriend,
(05:51):
who is only quote thinking of applyingto Tufts University Law School, especially
as specially considering that my uncle saysthat Tufts has no last school's Mark July
(06:12):
seventh, nineteen eighty eight. DearMark, it is good to hear from
you, although I am sorry tohear that you are having a little difficulty
with one of your tenants. Youare absolutely right about the rent control law
of Berkeley that applies only to apartmentsin Berkeley. It does not make any
difference where the landlord lives, andit does not make any difference where the
tenant came from. The only thingthat matters is where the apartment is.
If the apartment is in Berkeley,the Berkeley rent control law applies. The
(06:35):
apartment is not in Berkeley, theBerkeley rent control law does not apply.
From what you have said, yourtenant seems to be a very nice young
woman, so I am surprised thatshe has not been able to understand this
yet. I think you should encourageher to speak to the people at the
Berkeley rent board, but to besure to tell them that the apartment is
in Oakland. She tells them thatthey will have to tell her that they
have no jurisdiction at all. Incidentally, Tufts University, which is near Boston,
(06:57):
has a very good reputation, butit does not have a law school.
I do hope that things are goingwell with you, and that you
and your tenant will get along betterafter she realizes that you are charging her
a perfectly legal amount of rent.Best regards from your uncle, Albert.
July thirteenth, nineteen eighty eight.Dear Karen, I know many other landlords,
and I belong to several landlord tradeassociations. I can assure you that
(07:24):
quote everyone is not paying thirty fourpoint four percent interest on tenants security deposits.
Sincerely, Mark, July fifteenth,nineteen eighty eight. Mark, my
boyfriend went back to the Berkeley RentControl Board because they didn't call him back.
They said that if a landlord claimsto be exempt from the Berkeley rent
(07:45):
Control law, he has to fillout a petition form. He picked up
a copy of the form for yourconvenience, and I've enclosed it. If
you fill out this form and sendit to the Berkeley Rent Board, they'll
tell you if you're exempt. YoursKaren. July sixteenth, nineteen eighty eight.
Dear Outbert, thanks for your letter. Time will tell if it works.
(08:09):
I've set a copye after Karen.If I had received the letter you
wrote, I would have taken umbrageat a blatantly patronizing and condescending tone of
the letter. I would have feltyou were being sycophantic and even obseque with.
However, since Karen cannot spell orcomprehend the meaning of multi syllabic words,
(08:33):
it's difficult she will feel the sameway. Thanks Mark, July nineteenth,
nineteen eighty eight. Dear Karen,I'm not going to apply for exemption
from Berkeley's rent control law or fillout any forms your house is in Oakland.
(08:56):
Although it's foolish on my part,I still have hopes, however small,
but you will eventually come to understandthe concept of jurisdiction. Remember,
if you bring any legal action againstme, either through the courts or the
(09:16):
Berkeley Rent Control Board, to complywith Berkeley's rent law, I will affect
you right Sincerely, work. Itwas still the summer of nineteen eighty eight.
(09:41):
The Land before Time was playing intheaters. The Olympics were being held
in Seoul, South Korea. TheUS was deep in the midst of the
Iran Contra scandal, and in Oakland, California, two teenage girls were about
to encounter some very big life change. Jews July twenty third, nineteen eighty
(10:03):
eight, Mark, I went tothe ASUC Renter Assistance Project for advice.
I showed them all my letters toyou and yours to me. They laughed
when they read them. I thinkthey thought your arguments were ridiculous. Anyway.
They told me I haven't got acase. They said that jurisdiction is
a real loophole or something like that. About the interest on my deposit,
(10:28):
what would you say to splitting thedifference in half? I want thirty four
percent, You want six percent.Thirty four plus six equals forty divided by
two equals twenty. So how doestwenty percent a year sound to you?
Yours, Karen, July twenty seventh, nineteen eighty eight, Dear Karen,
(10:52):
I pay the going rate of intereston security deposits. Most landlords who do
pay interest on deposits, and manydo not pay around six percent. Banks
are paying six percent on passbook accounts. Treasury bills pay around six percent,
CDs pay around six percent. Ipay around six percent. Sincerely Mark.
(11:20):
For several years, after finding evidencethat Rob and Karen could be real,
I unsuccessfully tried to track down Ellen. Her name was so common that even
when I narrowed searches down to theplaces I believed she was most likely to
be, there were dozens of Ellen'swho shared her full name. I spent
(11:41):
hours deep diving Facebook, MySpace,and even various new age message boards and
chat rooms with no luck. Alsoincluded in marks stack of letters was a
copy of an old op ed aboutpolice dogs that was apparently written by Ellen,
and I couldn't even find that.Granted, it was twenty five years
(12:03):
old at the time, and mostnewspapers are still to this day working on
digitizing their archives, but it justseemed odd that I could find no trace
of Ellen anywhere in the real world. And even after my successes in finding
evidence of Mark, Karen, andRob, I started to again question how
(12:24):
real the letters could actually be.Perhaps they were just factual events manipulated into
fiction, but even that didn't makesense to what end. I left Portland
in two thousand and nine and movedback to San Francisco, and the letters
(12:45):
once again sat dormant in a boxin a closet. A year later,
I got a job offer in Seattle, and so, once again, in
a new city full of new faces, the Karen and Ellen letters were resorted.
But this time we went big.Karen and Ellen, we're about to
(13:07):
have their first brush with fame.August first, nineteen eighty eight, Mark,
I accidentally broke the vacuum cleaner yougave me when I was cleaning out
the refrigerator. Can I have anotherone soon? Karen? August fourth,
(13:28):
nineteen eighty eight, Dear Karen,Why, why? And how did you
use an upright vacuum cleaner to cleanthe refrigerator? How did the vacuum get
broken? I know it would bewiser for me not to ask you this,
(13:54):
but frankly, my curiosity has gottenthe better over my judgment. Oh
August eighth, nineteen eighty eight.Dear Mark, I didn't want to tell
you how I broke the vacuum cleanerbecause it might sound silly to you,
and I wouldn't want you to thinkI was stupid or something. Well,
(14:16):
I was going to clean out therefrigerator and when I pulled out the vegetable
tray. There was the screen slimystuff on the bottom. I didn't want
to touch it because it looked toodisgusting, so I thought I could just
vacuum it up. I check outthe shelves because it's hard to get an
upright vacuum cleaner into the refrigerator.Well, as soon as the vacuum sucked
up the green slimy stuff the underand the vacuum burned out, I guess
(14:37):
I shouldn't vacuum green slimy stuff.Can I get another one soon? Yours,
Karen, August twelfth, nineteen eightyeight. Dear Karum, landlords are
not required by law to give tenantsvacuum cleaners. Most do not. Considering
(14:58):
that you only had the vacuum cleanerfor two months and it was brand new
when you got it, and consideringhow you broke it, I am not
going to give you another one.Sincerely, Mark, August fifteenth, nineteen
eighty eight. Mark, does thismean I'm going to have to pay for
the next vacuum cleaner myself? Karen, August twenty first, nineteen eighty eight.
(15:24):
Mark, your letter was the laststraw that broke the Camel's back.
Anyway, I'm leaving. This isyour thirty day notice. I'm not going
to take this anymore. What kindof fool do you think I am?
Anyway? Your letters make me feellike an idiot. All I want is
what I've got coming to me.Allen says she's going to stay. Karen,
(15:46):
August twenty second, nineteen eighty eight. Dear Mark, I'd like a
letter of recommendation from you that Ican show to other landlords so I can
find in an apartment, which willbe easier if I have a letter of
recommendation from you that I can showto other landlords when I try to find
an apartment. Yours, Karen,August twenty fourth, nineteen eighty eight.
(16:08):
To whom it may concern, Karenhas been a tenant of mine for the
past fifteen months. Through my meetings, phone calls, and correspondence with her,
I have come to know Karen quitewell. I can say without hesitation
that in my twenty years in thisbusiness, I have never had a tenant
(16:34):
of Karen's caliber or mental equal.Karen has always kept her house neat and
clean, and to the best ofmy knowledge, has never made excessive noise
or disturbed her neighbors. I amconfident that anyone who rents an apartment to
(16:57):
Karen will quickly be struck with her. Many unique qualities we tarre too numerous
to fully cover in this letter.Very sincerely, Mark, August twenty eight,
nineteen eighty eight. Dear Mark,your letter of recommendation almost made me
(17:21):
cry. It's so beautiful. Thankyou so much. I may have been
a little harsh with you over thelast few months. I've been having a
bad time. I'm dropping out ofUC Berkeley. My advisor says I should
reconsider being a school teacher, andmy boyfriend didn't get into Tufts. I'm
probably going back to Oregon. Mydaddy says, you can get me a
(17:45):
job at at a genetic engineering labor something in Portland where they make viruses
and bacteria and stuff like that.It sounds very exciting and the pay is
terrifical, and it sounds like funtoo. Bye Yours, Karen, September
fourth, nineteen eighty eight, DearMark, I'm going to leave here at
(18:07):
the end of this month. Ihaven't had much luck finding a roommate,
and I can't afford the rent bymyself on my allowance alone thought I found
a roommate, a woman named Alice. She's a language major and speaks affluent
German. I decided not to takeher for three reasons. First, Alice
is a scorpio, and you knowwhat that means. Second, Karen tells
(18:30):
me that she heard that German isa gutter language and that sounds like bad
karma to me. I wish Icould find someone just like Karen, but
she's really one of a kind.I'll miss her. You can start showing
this house anytime after September fifth.To new tenants, Ellen, September eighth,
nineteen eighty eight, dear Mark,Karen and her boyfriend are going back
(18:52):
to Portland next week to get marked. Then they will be going to Calcutta
for a month on their honeymoon.My new guru says, Calcutta hasn't been
discovered by tourists yet. Anyway,this means I'll be taking care of the
security deposit refund for both of us, since Karen won't be here. Has
somebody called you from the ASUC rentHe Assistance Project? Karen says, somebody
(19:15):
there is telling people that she's crazy. Can you imagine? We don't know
who's saying it. But Karen saysthat allegations are being made against her,
and she's going to find the alligator. If you know who it is,
please let us know yours, Ellen, September ninth, nineteen eighty eight,
Dear Albert, I am beginning tounderstand Karen's logic, and this worries me.
(19:41):
Furthermore, I am beginning to agreewith her logic, and this worries
me even more. In my legalopinion, we know that a donation is
made by a donor, an interrogationis conducted by an interrogator. There Go
it must follow an allegation is madeby an alligator. Karen's logic seems perfectly
(20:07):
reasonable to me. Do I geta passing grade? Mark? September tenth,
nineteen eighty eight. Dear Mark,I'm a volunteer worker with a Bush
for President campaign. They suggested thatI could be of help to Bush by
writing letters to people I already knewat home, rather than working at their
office. Anyway, I'm writing toyou to ask you to vote for George
(20:30):
Bush. I've done a lot ofthinking about the selection, which is my
first Anyway, I think you shouldvote for Bush for these five reasons.
Number one, George Bush has sixletters in his first name and four letters
in his last name, both evennumbers. Michael Ducaccus has seven letters and
(20:51):
both his first and last names anodd number. Of course, seven plus
seven equals fourteen, which is even, but it doesn't work that way.
Number two Bush is a Gemini,but Ducoccus is a Scorpio, and you
know what that means. Quayle andBenson are both Aquarians, so that doesn't
mean anything. Number three Bush isa Republican. Number four Ducaccus is a
(21:15):
Democrat. I'm sure that once youconsider these important issues, you will vote
for George Bush along with Karen roband me. Yours, Ellen, September
twelfth, nineteen eighty eight, DearEllen, thank you for your recent letter
with your lists of reasons why Ishould vote for George Bush for president.
(21:38):
The reasons you listed are as goodand perhaps better than any other reasons I
have heard thus far. Four votingfor mister Bush, you may rest assure
that I will give your recommendation allthe consideration it deserves. Sincerely, markup,
(22:00):
Mber thirteenth, nineteen eighty eight.Dear Mark, the good thing about
yom Kipper is that it's coming encourageshardcore procrastinators like me to write some of
the letters we have written on ourminds over and over. The Karen and
Allen letters are unbelievable. I haveshowed them to Benji, Michael, and
Adam, and I will show themto Leon when I see him. I
have also shown select ones to someof my colleagues, who must also think
your arguments are ridiculous, for theyalso laughed. I've really learned a great
(22:22):
deal from them that I might neverhave known without them. Some of it
a little disquieting, for example,that gutter languages can place bad karma.
My previous tenants spoke Hebrew, whichalso has some of the same sounds that
make German a gutter language. Perhapsthat explains the karma in my place.
My nineteen o six printing of aneighteen ninety seven edition of Webster's Dictionary lists
three interesting words escaper, a tender, and a ledger. In the next
(22:45):
edition, escaper is retained, butis said to be used mostly for prisoners
of war. For other prisoners whoescaped, the word does now escape b
although this really sounds offensive to mebecause the prison is really the escape e.
While the person who escapes ought tobe called the escaper. The word
attend has been dropped and replaced withattendee, which also sounds wrong and offensive
to my ear. A ledger hasbeen dropped without being replaced at all.
(23:07):
There has been a void in thelanguage until now. Ellen's replacement is not
only not offensive to my ear,but it even sounds better than the original
a ledger. Perhaps if we spellit alligator with an e instead of an
eye, it might be picked upfor the next edition of Webster's Best Regards.
Albert ps. The word Perfect spellingprogram accepts a tender and a ledger,
but not a scaper or attendee.What a state of affairs. September
(23:30):
fourteenth, nineteen eighty eight. DearMark, I may have good news for
you, or I may not.Karen had a really big fight with her
father and maybe moving back here.Karen's father controls her trust fund until she's
twenty five, and he says hewon't let her have any money to go
to Calcutta on her honeymoon. He'strying to make Karen go to Paris,
(23:52):
France instead. He's an old democrat, you know. Anyway, Karen says
Paris has already discovered Touris years agotoo. I know that you need to
know if I'm leaving or staying.I don't know how serious Karen is about
moving back here. There may benothing to all this, but on the
other hand, there may not.Yours, Ellen, September nineteenth, nineteen
(24:17):
eighty eight, Dear Mark, Karengave in to her father, so she's
going to have to go to Parison her honeymoon instead of Calcutta. He's
even having her stay at the RitzHotel too. After Paris, Karen's father
is making her go to Venice onthe Orient Express, which is an old
train. He's being a real tyrant, if you ask me, ruining Karen's
(24:37):
honeymoon. Yours, Ellen, Septembereighteenth, nineteen eighty eight, Dear Albert,
I look forward to Karen's trip toParis and Allen's report from the trip.
I have observed that while Karen misspellseven one syllabled words, Ellen misspells
(24:57):
words far less frequently, and usuallyonly words of French origin, such as
gorilla for gorilla, exercise for exorcise, affluent for fluent, gutter for gutter
roll. Of course, this couldjust be a coincidence. We will see.
(25:22):
We will see. Mark, UncleAlbert was right. The Karen and
Ellen letters were unbelievable, or maybethey were so unbelievable that they actually became
believable, like they were just toocrazy to be fake. And I did
(25:45):
notice nuanced changes and the letters astime went on. For example, once
Karen moved out, Mark seemed muchmore playful and humored by Ellen's letters,
as though a burden had been liftedofficial. He and Ellen would even strike
up a surprising bond, and foras much as Mark seemed to try to
(26:06):
hide it, you could tell thathe was actually starting to care for Ellen,
who again was the only one Icould find no evidence of in the
real world. But Mark's eyes wouldquickly be shaken, because, as with
all Karen's our Karen wouldn't be silentfor long. The Karen and Ellen Letters
(26:36):
are Found Correspondents narrated by me JoshHallmark and voiced by Sarah Stapleton, Sarah
Kitcher, Jeff Powell, and BenjaminWatkins. This episode was made possible by
the following Patreon producers Adrian I Yellow, Amelia Hancock, Amy Basil, and
net L Benjamin Choppa Thong, CaseyJensen, Richardson, Dana Keith, Doctor
(26:56):
Jill Cooper, Drew Vipond, HalleReid, Jessica Alahode, Jillian Natale,
John O'Leary, Kendall, C Kimberly, k Lauren f Linley, tuscoff Manolas
Bulachus, megancap Seewell, Mike Sherman, Nicole and Dennis Henry, Sarah King,
sc Shannon Foster, Shelley Brewer,Tuesday Woodworth, Zach Ignottowitz, Warren,
Beth McNally, John Comrie, JordanTaylor, Carley McNutt, Lana Sarah
(27:18):
Ce and Lydia Fiedler. If you'dlike to support the show, go to
Patreon, dot com, Slash Studioboth and. This episode featured music by
Jay Eighties, Topaz White, Retro, Chilway, Droid, Bishop, Channel
thirteen, Neon Lights, Icarus,and Everything High
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