September 28, 2023 • 29 mins
In 2012, the Josh struggles with the joy vs. the reality of the letters.
In 1988, Karen honeymoons, Ellen prepares to move out, and Mark sends the girls what's left of their deposit.
In 2017, people have questions about Ellen.
The Karen & Ellen Letters are found correspondence.
Narrated and produced by: Josh Hallmark.
Starring: Sara Stapleton, Sara Kitcher, Jeff Powell, and Chris Braaten
This is a Studio BOTH/AND production: www.truecrimebullshit.com / www.bothand.fyi
For an ad-free experience: www.patreon.com/studiobothand
Music by:
In 1988, Karen honeymoons, Ellen prepares to move out, and Mark sends the girls what's left of their deposit.
In 2017, people have questions about Ellen.
The Karen & Ellen Letters are found correspondence.
Narrated and produced by: Josh Hallmark.
Starring: Sara Stapleton, Sara Kitcher, Jeff Powell, and Chris Braaten
This is a Studio BOTH/AND production: www.truecrimebullshit.com / www.bothand.fyi
For an ad-free experience: www.patreon.com/studiobothand
Music by:
- Lee Rosevere
- Topaz White
- Fifteen
- Tide
- Junk City Rejects
- Icarus
- The APX
- Roi Shpigler
Featured music: The Bird & The Bee
Patreon producers: Adrienne Aiello, Amelia Hancock, Amy Basil, Annette L, Benjamin Cioppa-Fong, Casey Jensen-Richardson, Dana Keith, Dr. Jill Cooper, Drew Vipond, Hallie Reed, Jessica Alihodzic, Jillian Natale, John O’Leary, Kendall C, Kimberly K, Lauren F, Lynnlie Tuschoff, Manolis Boulukos, Meggan Capps-Seawel, Mike Sherman, Nicole & Dennis Henry, Sarah King, SC, Shannon Foster, Shelly Brewer, Tuesdi Woodworth, Zack Ignatowicz Warren, Beth McNally, John Comrie, Jordan Taylor, Karli McNutt, Lana, Sara Cee, Lydia Fiedler
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:09):
This is a Studio both And production. Hey everyone, Studio both And is
hosting a launch party here in theBerkshires on October fourteenth. Both the True
Crime Bullshit and Karen and Ellen Lettersteams will be on stage with some of
(00:30):
your other favorite podcasters like Amanda fromWeinan Crime, Justin from Generation Why,
Charlie from Crime Lines, Nina fromAlready Gone, Laney from True Crime Cases
with Blaney, Kristen from Murder SheTold, Whitney and Melissa from Navigating Advocacy.
Bob and Darren from The Defense Diaries, and Moore will also be airing
(00:54):
an exclusive premier and Q and Afor my newest investigative podcast, Unsafe Spaces.
Get your tickets now at both anddot Fyi Slash Launch. All profits
from the event will be donated toprivate investigations for the missing and the Northern
Berkshire Community Coalition. Come for thepodcasts, stay for the Fall, Foliage.
(01:19):
I look forward to welcoming you allto the beautiful Berkshires. Warning listening
to this podcast may cause on mitigatingobsession and cognitive dissonance. All names have
been changed to protect the innocent,the insane, and everyone else in between.
(01:45):
Sometimes we want something so badly,or think we want something so badly,
that we never stop to really interrogatethat desire. Do I actually want
this? Do I really want toknow the answer to this question? Well,
having this be as rewarding as wantingit. What will happen or change
(02:12):
if I get what I'm looking for? What are the ramifications of my desire?
(02:32):
September twenty fourth, nineteen eighty eight, Dear Mark, I haven't found
a new apartment yet, so I'dlike to stay here for another month.
Do you know of any vacant departments? What is the matter with landlords around
here? Anyway? I've looked atabout three apartments so far, and the
landlords act so weird when I'm interviewingthem. Two of them wouldn't even tell
(02:53):
me their signs. No wonder theyhave vacant departments anyway. Karen leaves for
Paris on October tenth. I can'tbelieve her father is going to make her
go there. I feel so sorryfor Karen. France is a real tourist
trap. I know I was there, yours Ellen. It was autumn of
(03:20):
nineteen eighty eight. The Bush andDucaucus election campaigns were reaching a fever pitch,
the Cellular Technology Industry Association was created, laying the foundation for the new
cell phone economy. Big, amovie about a boy trapped in a man's
body, hit theaters and in Portland, Oregon, two newlyweds were setting off
(03:46):
to explore Europe, wishing knew abeautiful future made up of one happy day
after another. Congratulations Exceptember twenty seventh, nineteen eighty eight. Dear Karum and
Raw, my sincerest best wishes onyour marriage. I can think of no
(04:11):
two people I know more ideally matchedthan you. I hope you are very
happy together. Although I may havenever said so, I have grown to
look forward to your letters to me, and I will miss not receiving them
in future. Good luck, Mark, October nineteenth, nineteen eighty eight.
(04:34):
Dear Mark, Karen called me fromParis today. She says it's not as
bad as we thought. Karen saysthe Ritz Hotel seems all right, with
towels and everything. Karen says thefood at the Ritz Hotel restaurant is okay
once you scrape all the gravy off. She says they put sauce on everything
anyway. Karen says she has alreadyseen the Eyeful Tower and Versailles, where
(04:57):
King Louis lived. Tomorrow, she'sgoing to go to the Louver Museum,
which is full of expensive French paintingsby Michael Angelo and Venus de Milo.
None of the paintings are for sale, but Karen says she's going there anyway.
I'll let you know what she thinksof the Louver after she goes there.
Being an artist myself, I'm kindof interested too, Yours, Ellen,
(05:20):
October twenty fifth, nineteen eighty eight. Dear Mark, Karen and Rob
are on their way to Venice,or are already in Venice. The other
day they went to the cathedral ofNotre Dame that means an English church of
Our Dame. Well, they learnedall about Catholics from a priest who gave
this lecture to the group they werein. Anyway, Catholics believe that Jesus
(05:43):
Christ's mother, Mary Christ, neverreally died. Catholics believe that Mary Christ
was consumed in heaven. Anyway,that's what they assume happened to her.
So Catholics have a big holiday tocelebrate their assumption, called the Feast of
the Consumption. Isn't that interesting.You see, Karen's family is Episcopalian.
They assume Mary christ just died.Yours Ellen, November first, nineteen eighty
(06:10):
eight. Dear Mark, Well,I know I told you that I would
be leaving here by today, butI'd like to stay just a little longer.
I'm trying to find jobs for Karenand me back in Portland, but
my father won't help. He blamesme for the explosion at my uncle Gary's
pickle factory two years ago. DidI ever tell you about it? It
really wasn't my fault, but theyblame me anyway. But that's a long
(06:32):
story anyway. Karen's father says he'lltry to get us jobs if he can,
but not at the genetic engineering labwhere we wanted to work. So
my head is sort of up inthe air right now. Karen and Robert
and Venice, they said the OrientExpress is not bad for an old train.
Karen didn't need to bring any sandwiches. After all. They did have
(06:54):
food on the train. It wasall French food, but they ate it
anyway. They are staying at thehour gruenwalg Hotel, which doesn't sound Italian
to me, but the people whowork at the hotel are Italian, that
is, Karen's's people in Venice arevery poor. They can't afford cars,
she says. The gondolas are justfor the tourists. The people who live
(07:15):
in Venice right around on vaporizers.She saw the bridge of size and the
Dog's palace. You see for centuries, even for hundreds of years, Venice
was ruled by the Dog of Venice. He wasn't really a dog, he
was a man, but they calledhim the dog. Anyway. Karen's father
arranged the hotel reservations and the restaurantstoo. They are at Danielli's restaurant and
(07:40):
the Antique Martini and Harry's bar.They didn't see him because he died a
long time ago. The people inVenice eat a lot of Italian food.
I already knew that. Though.Yesterday they went to Saint Marco's church.
They learned a lot more stuff aboutCatholics. Well, this Catholic priest,
who spoke England very well, consideringhow short he was named, Brother Angelo,
(08:03):
told Karen's group the strangest stories.Karen couldn't hear all of it because
the Agnostics in the church were backanyway, Catholics believed that a long time
ago there was a bad Jewish kingnamed Harod. Well, one day he
really wanted some salami, so thissalami danced around him. But the only
way he could get it was tocut this guy's head off and put it
(08:26):
on a plate. It was gross. Catholics have the weirdest ideas, but
I wouldn't say so to one ofthem. They might get offensive. Catholics
also have nuns. Nuns are womenwho have taken vowels of chastity, which
doesn't make sense to me. LikeI said, Catholics have some weird ideas.
Karen asked Brother Angelo about all this, but she says he looked confused
(08:48):
by her questions. Well, child, for now, that's Italian for goodbye
yours Ellen. November fifteenth, nineteeneighty eight. Dear Mark, by the
time you get this letter, I'llbe back in Portland. Enclosed are my
keys and Karen's keys. Rob threwhis keys in the trash. He didn't
(09:09):
know he was supposed to return themto you. Karen and Rob are on
their way back to Portland too.Karen says she packed all her suitcases full
of souvenirs of venice. What isfor you. She tried to buy Venetian
blinds. Isn't that a great souvenirof Venice. Of course, the only
ones she could find were made inTaiwan. I told her buying them in
(09:30):
Venice is what counts, but shedidn't buy them, even though I told
her buying them in Venice is whatmakes them Venetian. Anyway, I know
I told you they would be inVenice longer, but Karen's father made them
come home early. There was somesort of accident with a gondola, and
Karen's father says he couldn't afford anotherday with them left to their own advices
(09:50):
or something. Anyway, the Italianpolice called Karen's father and he made them
come home. The Italian police orsuch snitches. I cleaned up the house
really good before I left. Theonly damage is the freezer door, which
broke off its hinges. Rob brokeit accidentally when he hit it with a
frozen leg of lamb. It's reallynot Rob's fault. It could have happened
(10:13):
to anyone, you know, butit happened to Rob. The vacuum cleaner
is busted, too, but youalready know about that. It really wasn't
Karen's fault. If you ask me, or if you ask her, I'm
leaving the painting in the living roomfor you. If you put batteries in
the back of it, the cat'seyes will go back and forth. It
takes four batteries. The cat's tongueis broken. It's not an original painting.
(10:37):
Being an artist myself, I cantell these things. Finally, there's
the security deposit. I don't knowwhat to ask you for. Karen's the
practical one. Karen told me thatyou're supposed to pay me interest on it,
or I'm supposed to pay you intereston it. I can't keep it
straight, so just send me whateveryou feel you should. I'll let Karen
(10:58):
figure it out. Late, Karen'sfather has got jobs for Karen, robbing
me on a Christmas tree farm nearPortland owned by one of his patients.
Karen's father says, probably can't destroythe world on a Christmas tree farm.
He says the silliest things, consideringhe's an ornithologist, that's an eye doctor.
(11:18):
If you want to write me,you know my address in Portland.
Well, I guess this is goodbyeyours. Ellen. November eighteenth, nineteen
eighty eight. Dear Karen and Ellen, you will be receiving your security deposit
refund in about a week. Asper California law, I am letting you
(11:39):
know that I intend to make thefollowing deductions from your deposit on the refrigerator
will have to be replaced. Enclosedis the estimate from GE to fix the
freeser door. It will cost meninety seven dollars and eighty seven cents plus
twenty nine dollars and ninety five centsI have paid for this service call already.
(12:01):
The GE repairman says it doesn't payto fix the refrigerator because, in
addition to the broken freezer door,there is a low side leak in the
refrigerator coils, due no doubt toyour repeated defrosting with your mallet and chisel.
I've warned you not to do this, but you ignored my warnings and
now the refrigerator is beyond repair.In addition, I must tell you that
(12:26):
I do not regard Rob's breaking thefreezer door off its hinges by hitting it
with a frozen leg of lamb thathe was swinging around as normal wear and
tear. It may come as asurprise to you, But in my many
years in this business, this isthe first time a tenant of a mine
has destroyed a refrigerator belonging to mewith a lamb leg. The refrigerator will
(12:54):
cost me two hundred and seventy fivedollars to replace, plus twenty five dollars
to have the broken fridge haul away. Two The Hoover Quick Vac vacuum cleaner
cost me forty two dollars and isbeyond repair. I do not regard your
destruction of my vacuum by sucking upgreen, slimy stuff in your refrigerator as
(13:16):
normal usage, and therefore I donot regard this breakage as normal wear and
tear either. Three the closet doorsin Ellen's bedroom will cost eighty dollars to
replace. The fake fur glued onthese doors will not come off. You
(13:37):
may recall I told you not toglue fur or anything else to your walls
or doors. Four it will costme fifty two dollars to replace the blinds
in the kitchen and Karen's bedroom withall the phone numbers and notes written on
them. Five it will cost meforty dollars to replace the oak framed medicine
(14:01):
cabinet in the bathroom that you tookwith you and itemized statement and refund if
any, will be sent to youshortly, Sincerely Mark. In the original
(14:28):
run of the Karen and Ellen Letterspodcast, there were two interesting questions that
I saw come up over and overagain. The first was does Ellen even
exist? People noticed that Mark rarelyresponded to Ellen's letters, and that almost
all of her letters were completely outsideof the scope of a landlord tenant relationship.
(14:54):
Karen would write to Mark about hercomplaints surrounding the cottage, rent utility
bills, but Ellen would write toMark about life in general, astrology school,
her concerns surrounding Roger Rabbit, andalmost all seemed to be written in
a childlike voice. By this point, I'd found evidence of everyone in the
(15:18):
real world everyone except for Ellen,and so I was fascinated by the two
theories that derived from the Ellen question. One, Ellen never existed and all
of her letters were faked. Two, Ellen was not a college student but
(15:39):
actually a little girl, more specificallyKaren and Rob's daughter. The second interesting
question I saw people asking a lotwas who was the worst? Karen was
so awful and demanded Mark was meanto be toying with these girls. Rob
(16:04):
had no sense of accountability. AndI guess the part of that question that
struck me as interesting was the wordworst. Not so much because none of
these people could be considered awful orbad or the worst, but more so
that in any story we seem tolook for the person who is the worst.
(16:26):
There's a binary there that now,at this point in my life,
makes me strangely uncomfortable. But backwhen these letters were a blog, it
was a binary I found myself within. When I started the blog back in
twenty twelve. Initially I would haveagreed with any one of the arguments about
(16:48):
who was the worst, Karen MarkRob. I don't think anyone ever considered
Ellen to be bad. But bytwenty thirteen my opinion changed drastically. When
I started blogging these letters, Ithought it would remain the inside joke it
had always been amongst my out ofstate friends and then maybe some of their
friends. I had no idea howbig the blog was going to get.
(17:15):
If I had, I hope Iwould have done a better job of concealing
identities. And you know, Isay that now with plenty of hindsight.
In fact, when the blog didstart to get big, so did my
ego and my obsession, which greweven greater. I didn't want the excitement
(17:37):
to end. I wanted to sensationalizethe moment, stretch it out for as
long as possible, so I begandesperately searching for Mark and Karen once again
years later, and it turned outMark was now even easier to find and
(18:00):
get a hold of, and lessthan a day I had his phone number
and email address. Karen, onthe other hand, seemed a rabbit hole
in the Portland area alone, therewere over thirty Karens who shared her full
name just on Facebook alone. Ireached out to about half of them before
(18:22):
giving up. Karen seemed like alost cause, and more than that,
she terrified me. For about aweek, I continued blogging and occasionally stared
both curiously and fearfully at Mark's phonenumber, now saved in my phone.
When I started my journey and evenwhen I started the blog, these people
(18:45):
were more or less anecdotes to me, and while their existence had been a
long debate, while their authenticity hadalways been up in the air, I
never stopped to consider the real liferepercussions of posting these funny found letters.
It was just a joke between friends. But now with Mark's phone number tempting
(19:07):
me on a daily basis, thesepeople had become very real, and the
blog had become very big, andthere was just no way to know how
that phone call would go. Andthen one day my hubrists got the best
of me. I sat in myliving room staring out his number and pressed
(19:33):
call. Meanwhile, Karen had numerousconcerns with Mark's deposit deductions. Obviously November
twentieth, nineteen eighty eight, DearMark, I got your letter. I
can't believe that you're going to keepmy security deposit. Rob says he was
(19:57):
expecting you to do something like this, but I'm unbelievable. Unbelieving. Rob
said, I should have expected thiswhen you refuse to pay for the cleaning
stuff when I moved in, eventhough you should have. Do you remember
anyway, Let's get down to business. As my father says, I took
(20:17):
the medicine cabinet as a trade forthe cat painting Ellen, and I left
for you to keep. If youwant me to return the old medicine cabinet,
I'll give back to you when I'mback in the Bay Area in the
spring or fall. So that's thatyou can't charge Ellen for replacing her closet
doors. They worked fine and they'restill there, and you never paid for
the fake for anyway. The vacuumcleaner wouldn't have broke if you told me
(20:41):
not to suck up liquid, sothat's really your fault. If you had
told me not to vacuum in thegreen, slimy stuff in the refrigerator,
I wouldn't have done it, soyou can't charge me for that either.
As far as the refrigerator goes,you can't charge us for that either,
since Rob didn't hit it with aleg of lamb on purpose, it was
an accident. Also, Rob didn'teven live there anyway. I don't want
(21:07):
to get rough with you, butif I don't get back my whole security
deposit plus thirty four point four percenta year interest that we agreed on,
I'm going to turn this whole matterover to Rob. And he's still seriously
thinking about going to law school.Yours, Karen, November twenty fourth,
nineteen eighty eight. Dear Karen,you will not be receiving any money from
(21:33):
maybe the deductions from your security depositthat I outlined in my last letter to
you total more than the amount ofthe deposit itself. I will not feel
you for the excess. Your lastletter to me reflects a good deal of
confusion on your part about law andsecurity deposits. One. I never agreed
(21:59):
to pay you thirty four point fourpercent a year on your security deposit.
Two. It doesn't matter whether youand Rob broke your vacamm or vacum cleaner
and refrigerator on purpose or not,nor does it matter where whether Robert lived
in your house or not. Allthat matters legally is whether they broke from
(22:21):
normal wear and tear, which theydid not, or whether they broke from
abuse or negligence, which they did. Three. I did not agree to
trade the bathroom medicine cabinet for yourcat painting, which I do not want.
In any case, I certainly cannotwait until spring or possibly fall before
(22:42):
replacing it. Four I told youand Ellen repeatedly and in writing not to
glue fake fur on your walls ordoors. Furthermore, your lease specifically prohibits
you from any alteration or redecoration ofthe house without my prior written consent,
(23:04):
which I did not give. Youfive. As far as your threat to
turn this matter over to Rob quotewho was still seriously thinking about applying to
law school end quote, that isa risk I am prepared to accept.
(23:26):
Finally, it has long been obviousto me from reading your letters that you
expect other people to give you anythingyou demand, regardless of the cost or
reasonableness of your demands. This isnot going to work with me. I've
had to work hard and sacrifice foreverything I have. Furthermore, I've been
(23:52):
your landlord, not your employee.I am not going to send you money
simply because you demand. Sincerely,Mark, November twenty ninth, nineteen eighty
eight. Mark. The cat paintingin the living room costed Ellen one hundred
(24:14):
and ninety seven dollars, which isalmost two hundred dollars. That's more than
the medicine cabinet and the vacuum cleanercosts put together. All the cat painting
needs is four batteries and it willwork okay anyway. The eyes will go
back and forth like they should.But the cat's tongue is broken and I
don't think it can be fixed.Rob broke off the tongue in August.
(24:36):
It was an accident, and reallyit could have happened to any of us
anyway. My point is that you'regetting a good deal. If the vacuum
cleaner really costed you forty two dollars, like you say in the medicine cabinet,
forty dollars, that's eighty four dollarstotal. If you subtract that from
one hundred and ninety seven dollars thatEllen paid for the cat painting, which
(24:56):
is almost two hundred dollars, thenyou've made over one hundred dollars profit on
the trade. Two hundred minus eightyfour equals over one hundred dollars. So
you see, you still owe mea full refund of my deposit. Karen,
December two, nineteen eighty eight.Dear Karen, I have received your
(25:22):
letter of November twenty nine. Yourline of reasoning, if I may color
that, is absurd. Since youbelieve the cat painting is valuable, I
will hold it for thirty days fromthe date of this letter. If it
is not picked up by you withinthese thirty days, I will have the
painting taken to the city dump,in which case you will receive no compensation
(25:48):
from me for this painting. ThatI do not want, and that I
do believe is worthless. Sincerely,Mark. When I started blogging the letters
(26:11):
back in twenty twelve, I wouldhave agreed with most arguments about who the
worst person was, because they allhad their moments. But by twenty thirteen,
my opinion had drastically changed. Obsessioncan do a lot of damage.
(26:32):
Desire can make you do strange things. The pair can turn you into a
person you are not. Six monthsafter the blog came down and all the
revelations came out and the letters finallyreturned to a box in a closet,
I knew that the worst person inall of this was me. The Karen
(27:04):
and Ellen Letters will return on Octobertwelfth. Karen and Ellen Letters are Found
Correspondence narrated by Me and voiced bySarah Stapleton, Sarah Kitcher, Jeff Powell,
and Chris Brayton. This episode wasmade possible by the following Patreon producers
Adrian A. Yellow, Amelia Hancock, Amy Basil and l Benjamin Choppafon,
Kasey Jensen Richardson, Dana Keith,Happy Birthday, Doctor Jill Cooper, Drew
(27:27):
Vipon, Daley Reid, Jessica Alihodzik, Gillian Natale, John O'Leary, Kendall
C, Kimberly k, Lauren fLinley, tuscoff Manolas Bulakus, Meghan caps
Seawell, Mike Sherman, Nichol AndDennis Henry, Sarah King, sc Shannon
Foster, Shelley Brewer, Tuesday Woodwardzach Ignato. It's Warren, Beth McNally,
John Comrie, Jordan Taylor, CarleyMcNutt, Lana Sarah c and Lydia
(27:48):
Fiedler. If you'd like to supportthe show, go to Patreon dot com,
Slash Studio both and. This episodefeatured music by Lee Rosevier, Icarus
Fifteen, Topaz, White Tide,Junk City, reg X, The ap
X, and Roy Spigler, withfeatured music by The Bird and the Bee.
(28:12):
The Sunday, December fourth, nineteeneighty eight by Robert Christmas Tree Farm
explodes. The Busy Beaver Christmas TreeFarm in Lynn County was destroyed by a
massive natural gas explosion on November twentynine. According to Lynn County Sheriff's Investigator,
Captain John O'Hara, the explosion wascaused by two careless employees on their
(28:36):
first day of my head over looks. The sentence will show to my heart
bright, watching watching you, watchingyou, watching you fly with cards,
(29:11):
you fly with love. You cantwist it around, baby, that
This is a Studio both And production. Hey everyone, Studio both And is
hosting a launch party here in theBerkshires on October fourteenth. Both the True
Crime Bullshit and Karen and Ellen Lettersteams will be on stage with some of
(00:30):
your other favorite podcasters like Amanda fromWeinan Crime, Justin from Generation Why,
Charlie from Crime Lines, Nina fromAlready Gone, Laney from True Crime Cases
with Blaney, Kristen from Murder SheTold, Whitney and Melissa from Navigating Advocacy.
Bob and Darren from The Defense Diaries, and Moore will also be airing
(00:54):
an exclusive premier and Q and Afor my newest investigative podcast, Unsafe Spaces.
Get your tickets now at both anddot Fyi Slash Launch. All profits
from the event will be donated toprivate investigations for the missing and the Northern
Berkshire Community Coalition. Come for thepodcasts, stay for the Fall, Foliage.
(01:19):
I look forward to welcoming you allto the beautiful Berkshires. Warning listening
to this podcast may cause on mitigatingobsession and cognitive dissonance. All names have
been changed to protect the innocent,the insane, and everyone else in between.
(01:45):
Sometimes we want something so badly,or think we want something so badly,
that we never stop to really interrogatethat desire. Do I actually want
this? Do I really want toknow the answer to this question? Well,
having this be as rewarding as wantingit. What will happen or change
(02:12):
if I get what I'm looking for? What are the ramifications of my desire?
(02:32):
September twenty fourth, nineteen eighty eight, Dear Mark, I haven't found
a new apartment yet, so I'dlike to stay here for another month.
Do you know of any vacant departments? What is the matter with landlords around
here? Anyway? I've looked atabout three apartments so far, and the
landlords act so weird when I'm interviewingthem. Two of them wouldn't even tell
(02:53):
me their signs. No wonder theyhave vacant departments anyway. Karen leaves for
Paris on October tenth. I can'tbelieve her father is going to make her
go there. I feel so sorryfor Karen. France is a real tourist
trap. I know I was there, yours Ellen. It was autumn of
(03:20):
nineteen eighty eight. The Bush andDucaucus election campaigns were reaching a fever pitch,
the Cellular Technology Industry Association was created, laying the foundation for the new
cell phone economy. Big, amovie about a boy trapped in a man's
body, hit theaters and in Portland, Oregon, two newlyweds were setting off
(03:46):
to explore Europe, wishing knew abeautiful future made up of one happy day
after another. Congratulations Exceptember twenty seventh, nineteen eighty eight. Dear Karum and
Raw, my sincerest best wishes onyour marriage. I can think of no
(04:11):
two people I know more ideally matchedthan you. I hope you are very
happy together. Although I may havenever said so, I have grown to
look forward to your letters to me, and I will miss not receiving them
in future. Good luck, Mark, October nineteenth, nineteen eighty eight.
(04:34):
Dear Mark, Karen called me fromParis today. She says it's not as
bad as we thought. Karen saysthe Ritz Hotel seems all right, with
towels and everything. Karen says thefood at the Ritz Hotel restaurant is okay
once you scrape all the gravy off. She says they put sauce on everything
anyway. Karen says she has alreadyseen the Eyeful Tower and Versailles, where
(04:57):
King Louis lived. Tomorrow, she'sgoing to go to the Louver Museum,
which is full of expensive French paintingsby Michael Angelo and Venus de Milo.
None of the paintings are for sale, but Karen says she's going there anyway.
I'll let you know what she thinksof the Louver after she goes there.
Being an artist myself, I'm kindof interested too, Yours, Ellen,
(05:20):
October twenty fifth, nineteen eighty eight. Dear Mark, Karen and Rob
are on their way to Venice,or are already in Venice. The other
day they went to the cathedral ofNotre Dame that means an English church of
Our Dame. Well, they learnedall about Catholics from a priest who gave
this lecture to the group they werein. Anyway, Catholics believe that Jesus
(05:43):
Christ's mother, Mary Christ, neverreally died. Catholics believe that Mary Christ
was consumed in heaven. Anyway,that's what they assume happened to her.
So Catholics have a big holiday tocelebrate their assumption, called the Feast of
the Consumption. Isn't that interesting.You see, Karen's family is Episcopalian.
They assume Mary christ just died.Yours Ellen, November first, nineteen eighty
(06:10):
eight. Dear Mark, Well,I know I told you that I would
be leaving here by today, butI'd like to stay just a little longer.
I'm trying to find jobs for Karenand me back in Portland, but
my father won't help. He blamesme for the explosion at my uncle Gary's
pickle factory two years ago. DidI ever tell you about it? It
really wasn't my fault, but theyblame me anyway. But that's a long
(06:32):
story anyway. Karen's father says he'lltry to get us jobs if he can,
but not at the genetic engineering labwhere we wanted to work. So
my head is sort of up inthe air right now. Karen and Robert
and Venice, they said the OrientExpress is not bad for an old train.
Karen didn't need to bring any sandwiches. After all. They did have
(06:54):
food on the train. It wasall French food, but they ate it
anyway. They are staying at thehour gruenwalg Hotel, which doesn't sound Italian
to me, but the people whowork at the hotel are Italian, that
is, Karen's's people in Venice arevery poor. They can't afford cars,
she says. The gondolas are justfor the tourists. The people who live
(07:15):
in Venice right around on vaporizers.She saw the bridge of size and the
Dog's palace. You see for centuries, even for hundreds of years, Venice
was ruled by the Dog of Venice. He wasn't really a dog, he
was a man, but they calledhim the dog. Anyway. Karen's father
arranged the hotel reservations and the restaurantstoo. They are at Danielli's restaurant and
(07:40):
the Antique Martini and Harry's bar.They didn't see him because he died a
long time ago. The people inVenice eat a lot of Italian food.
I already knew that. Though.Yesterday they went to Saint Marco's church.
They learned a lot more stuff aboutCatholics. Well, this Catholic priest,
who spoke England very well, consideringhow short he was named, Brother Angelo,
(08:03):
told Karen's group the strangest stories.Karen couldn't hear all of it because
the Agnostics in the church were backanyway, Catholics believed that a long time
ago there was a bad Jewish kingnamed Harod. Well, one day he
really wanted some salami, so thissalami danced around him. But the only
way he could get it was tocut this guy's head off and put it
(08:26):
on a plate. It was gross. Catholics have the weirdest ideas, but
I wouldn't say so to one ofthem. They might get offensive. Catholics
also have nuns. Nuns are womenwho have taken vowels of chastity, which
doesn't make sense to me. LikeI said, Catholics have some weird ideas.
Karen asked Brother Angelo about all this, but she says he looked confused
(08:48):
by her questions. Well, child, for now, that's Italian for goodbye
yours Ellen. November fifteenth, nineteeneighty eight. Dear Mark, by the
time you get this letter, I'llbe back in Portland. Enclosed are my
keys and Karen's keys. Rob threwhis keys in the trash. He didn't
(09:09):
know he was supposed to return themto you. Karen and Rob are on
their way back to Portland too.Karen says she packed all her suitcases full
of souvenirs of venice. What isfor you. She tried to buy Venetian
blinds. Isn't that a great souvenirof Venice. Of course, the only
ones she could find were made inTaiwan. I told her buying them in
(09:30):
Venice is what counts, but shedidn't buy them, even though I told
her buying them in Venice is whatmakes them Venetian. Anyway, I know
I told you they would be inVenice longer, but Karen's father made them
come home early. There was somesort of accident with a gondola, and
Karen's father says he couldn't afford anotherday with them left to their own advices
(09:50):
or something. Anyway, the Italianpolice called Karen's father and he made them
come home. The Italian police orsuch snitches. I cleaned up the house
really good before I left. Theonly damage is the freezer door, which
broke off its hinges. Rob brokeit accidentally when he hit it with a
frozen leg of lamb. It's reallynot Rob's fault. It could have happened
(10:13):
to anyone, you know, butit happened to Rob. The vacuum cleaner
is busted, too, but youalready know about that. It really wasn't
Karen's fault. If you ask me, or if you ask her, I'm
leaving the painting in the living roomfor you. If you put batteries in
the back of it, the cat'seyes will go back and forth. It
takes four batteries. The cat's tongueis broken. It's not an original painting.
(10:37):
Being an artist myself, I cantell these things. Finally, there's
the security deposit. I don't knowwhat to ask you for. Karen's the
practical one. Karen told me thatyou're supposed to pay me interest on it,
or I'm supposed to pay you intereston it. I can't keep it
straight, so just send me whateveryou feel you should. I'll let Karen
(10:58):
figure it out. Late, Karen'sfather has got jobs for Karen, robbing
me on a Christmas tree farm nearPortland owned by one of his patients.
Karen's father says, probably can't destroythe world on a Christmas tree farm.
He says the silliest things, consideringhe's an ornithologist, that's an eye doctor.
(11:18):
If you want to write me,you know my address in Portland.
Well, I guess this is goodbyeyours. Ellen. November eighteenth, nineteen
eighty eight. Dear Karen and Ellen, you will be receiving your security deposit
refund in about a week. Asper California law, I am letting you
(11:39):
know that I intend to make thefollowing deductions from your deposit on the refrigerator
will have to be replaced. Enclosedis the estimate from GE to fix the
freeser door. It will cost meninety seven dollars and eighty seven cents plus
twenty nine dollars and ninety five centsI have paid for this service call already.
(12:01):
The GE repairman says it doesn't payto fix the refrigerator because, in
addition to the broken freezer door,there is a low side leak in the
refrigerator coils, due no doubt toyour repeated defrosting with your mallet and chisel.
I've warned you not to do this, but you ignored my warnings and
now the refrigerator is beyond repair.In addition, I must tell you that
(12:26):
I do not regard Rob's breaking thefreezer door off its hinges by hitting it
with a frozen leg of lamb thathe was swinging around as normal wear and
tear. It may come as asurprise to you, But in my many
years in this business, this isthe first time a tenant of a mine
has destroyed a refrigerator belonging to mewith a lamb leg. The refrigerator will
(12:54):
cost me two hundred and seventy fivedollars to replace, plus twenty five dollars
to have the broken fridge haul away. Two The Hoover Quick Vac vacuum cleaner
cost me forty two dollars and isbeyond repair. I do not regard your
destruction of my vacuum by sucking upgreen, slimy stuff in your refrigerator as
(13:16):
normal usage, and therefore I donot regard this breakage as normal wear and
tear either. Three the closet doorsin Ellen's bedroom will cost eighty dollars to
replace. The fake fur glued onthese doors will not come off. You
(13:37):
may recall I told you not toglue fur or anything else to your walls
or doors. Four it will costme fifty two dollars to replace the blinds
in the kitchen and Karen's bedroom withall the phone numbers and notes written on
them. Five it will cost meforty dollars to replace the oak framed medicine
(14:01):
cabinet in the bathroom that you tookwith you and itemized statement and refund if
any, will be sent to youshortly, Sincerely Mark. In the original
(14:28):
run of the Karen and Ellen Letterspodcast, there were two interesting questions that
I saw come up over and overagain. The first was does Ellen even
exist? People noticed that Mark rarelyresponded to Ellen's letters, and that almost
all of her letters were completely outsideof the scope of a landlord tenant relationship.
(14:54):
Karen would write to Mark about hercomplaints surrounding the cottage, rent utility
bills, but Ellen would write toMark about life in general, astrology school,
her concerns surrounding Roger Rabbit, andalmost all seemed to be written in
a childlike voice. By this point, I'd found evidence of everyone in the
(15:18):
real world everyone except for Ellen,and so I was fascinated by the two
theories that derived from the Ellen question. One, Ellen never existed and all
of her letters were faked. Two, Ellen was not a college student but
(15:39):
actually a little girl, more specificallyKaren and Rob's daughter. The second interesting
question I saw people asking a lotwas who was the worst? Karen was
so awful and demanded Mark was meanto be toying with these girls. Rob
(16:04):
had no sense of accountability. AndI guess the part of that question that
struck me as interesting was the wordworst. Not so much because none of
these people could be considered awful orbad or the worst, but more so
that in any story we seem tolook for the person who is the worst.
(16:26):
There's a binary there that now,at this point in my life,
makes me strangely uncomfortable. But backwhen these letters were a blog, it
was a binary I found myself within. When I started the blog back in
twenty twelve. Initially I would haveagreed with any one of the arguments about
(16:48):
who was the worst, Karen MarkRob. I don't think anyone ever considered
Ellen to be bad. But bytwenty thirteen my opinion changed drastically. When
I started blogging these letters, Ithought it would remain the inside joke it
had always been amongst my out ofstate friends and then maybe some of their
friends. I had no idea howbig the blog was going to get.
(17:15):
If I had, I hope Iwould have done a better job of concealing
identities. And you know, Isay that now with plenty of hindsight.
In fact, when the blog didstart to get big, so did my
ego and my obsession, which greweven greater. I didn't want the excitement
(17:37):
to end. I wanted to sensationalizethe moment, stretch it out for as
long as possible, so I begandesperately searching for Mark and Karen once again
years later, and it turned outMark was now even easier to find and
(18:00):
get a hold of, and lessthan a day I had his phone number
and email address. Karen, onthe other hand, seemed a rabbit hole
in the Portland area alone, therewere over thirty Karens who shared her full
name just on Facebook alone. Ireached out to about half of them before
(18:22):
giving up. Karen seemed like alost cause, and more than that,
she terrified me. For about aweek, I continued blogging and occasionally stared
both curiously and fearfully at Mark's phonenumber, now saved in my phone.
When I started my journey and evenwhen I started the blog, these people
(18:45):
were more or less anecdotes to me, and while their existence had been a
long debate, while their authenticity hadalways been up in the air, I
never stopped to consider the real liferepercussions of posting these funny found letters.
It was just a joke between friends. But now with Mark's phone number tempting
(19:07):
me on a daily basis, thesepeople had become very real, and the
blog had become very big, andthere was just no way to know how
that phone call would go. Andthen one day my hubrists got the best
of me. I sat in myliving room staring out his number and pressed
(19:33):
call. Meanwhile, Karen had numerousconcerns with Mark's deposit deductions. Obviously November
twentieth, nineteen eighty eight, DearMark, I got your letter. I
can't believe that you're going to keepmy security deposit. Rob says he was
(19:57):
expecting you to do something like this, but I'm unbelievable. Unbelieving. Rob
said, I should have expected thiswhen you refuse to pay for the cleaning
stuff when I moved in, eventhough you should have. Do you remember
anyway, Let's get down to business. As my father says, I took
(20:17):
the medicine cabinet as a trade forthe cat painting Ellen, and I left
for you to keep. If youwant me to return the old medicine cabinet,
I'll give back to you when I'mback in the Bay Area in the
spring or fall. So that's thatyou can't charge Ellen for replacing her closet
doors. They worked fine and they'restill there, and you never paid for
the fake for anyway. The vacuumcleaner wouldn't have broke if you told me
(20:41):
not to suck up liquid, sothat's really your fault. If you had
told me not to vacuum in thegreen, slimy stuff in the refrigerator,
I wouldn't have done it, soyou can't charge me for that either.
As far as the refrigerator goes,you can't charge us for that either,
since Rob didn't hit it with aleg of lamb on purpose, it was
an accident. Also, Rob didn'teven live there anyway. I don't want
(21:07):
to get rough with you, butif I don't get back my whole security
deposit plus thirty four point four percenta year interest that we agreed on,
I'm going to turn this whole matterover to Rob. And he's still seriously
thinking about going to law school.Yours, Karen, November twenty fourth,
nineteen eighty eight. Dear Karen,you will not be receiving any money from
(21:33):
maybe the deductions from your security depositthat I outlined in my last letter to
you total more than the amount ofthe deposit itself. I will not feel
you for the excess. Your lastletter to me reflects a good deal of
confusion on your part about law andsecurity deposits. One. I never agreed
(21:59):
to pay you thirty four point fourpercent a year on your security deposit.
Two. It doesn't matter whether youand Rob broke your vacamm or vacum cleaner
and refrigerator on purpose or not,nor does it matter where whether Robert lived
in your house or not. Allthat matters legally is whether they broke from
(22:21):
normal wear and tear, which theydid not, or whether they broke from
abuse or negligence, which they did. Three. I did not agree to
trade the bathroom medicine cabinet for yourcat painting, which I do not want.
In any case, I certainly cannotwait until spring or possibly fall before
(22:42):
replacing it. Four I told youand Ellen repeatedly and in writing not to
glue fake fur on your walls ordoors. Furthermore, your lease specifically prohibits
you from any alteration or redecoration ofthe house without my prior written consent,
(23:04):
which I did not give. Youfive. As far as your threat to
turn this matter over to Rob quotewho was still seriously thinking about applying to
law school end quote, that isa risk I am prepared to accept.
(23:26):
Finally, it has long been obviousto me from reading your letters that you
expect other people to give you anythingyou demand, regardless of the cost or
reasonableness of your demands. This isnot going to work with me. I've
had to work hard and sacrifice foreverything I have. Furthermore, I've been
(23:52):
your landlord, not your employee.I am not going to send you money
simply because you demand. Sincerely,Mark, November twenty ninth, nineteen eighty
eight. Mark. The cat paintingin the living room costed Ellen one hundred
(24:14):
and ninety seven dollars, which isalmost two hundred dollars. That's more than
the medicine cabinet and the vacuum cleanercosts put together. All the cat painting
needs is four batteries and it willwork okay anyway. The eyes will go
back and forth like they should.But the cat's tongue is broken and I
don't think it can be fixed.Rob broke off the tongue in August.
(24:36):
It was an accident, and reallyit could have happened to any of us
anyway. My point is that you'regetting a good deal. If the vacuum
cleaner really costed you forty two dollars, like you say in the medicine cabinet,
forty dollars, that's eighty four dollarstotal. If you subtract that from
one hundred and ninety seven dollars thatEllen paid for the cat painting, which
(24:56):
is almost two hundred dollars, thenyou've made over one hundred dollars profit on
the trade. Two hundred minus eightyfour equals over one hundred dollars. So
you see, you still owe mea full refund of my deposit. Karen,
December two, nineteen eighty eight.Dear Karen, I have received your
(25:22):
letter of November twenty nine. Yourline of reasoning, if I may color
that, is absurd. Since youbelieve the cat painting is valuable, I
will hold it for thirty days fromthe date of this letter. If it
is not picked up by you withinthese thirty days, I will have the
painting taken to the city dump,in which case you will receive no compensation
(25:48):
from me for this painting. ThatI do not want, and that I
do believe is worthless. Sincerely,Mark. When I started blogging the letters
(26:11):
back in twenty twelve, I wouldhave agreed with most arguments about who the
worst person was, because they allhad their moments. But by twenty thirteen,
my opinion had drastically changed. Obsessioncan do a lot of damage.
(26:32):
Desire can make you do strange things. The pair can turn you into a
person you are not. Six monthsafter the blog came down and all the
revelations came out and the letters finallyreturned to a box in a closet,
I knew that the worst person inall of this was me. The Karen
(27:04):
and Ellen Letters will return on Octobertwelfth. Karen and Ellen Letters are Found
Correspondence narrated by Me and voiced bySarah Stapleton, Sarah Kitcher, Jeff Powell,
and Chris Brayton. This episode wasmade possible by the following Patreon producers
Adrian A. Yellow, Amelia Hancock, Amy Basil and l Benjamin Choppafon,
Kasey Jensen Richardson, Dana Keith,Happy Birthday, Doctor Jill Cooper, Drew
(27:27):
Vipon, Daley Reid, Jessica Alihodzik, Gillian Natale, John O'Leary, Kendall
C, Kimberly k, Lauren fLinley, tuscoff Manolas Bulakus, Meghan caps
Seawell, Mike Sherman, Nichol AndDennis Henry, Sarah King, sc Shannon
Foster, Shelley Brewer, Tuesday Woodwardzach Ignato. It's Warren, Beth McNally,
John Comrie, Jordan Taylor, CarleyMcNutt, Lana Sarah c and Lydia
(27:48):
Fiedler. If you'd like to supportthe show, go to Patreon dot com,
Slash Studio both and. This episodefeatured music by Lee Rosevier, Icarus
Fifteen, Topaz, White Tide,Junk City, reg X, The ap
X, and Roy Spigler, withfeatured music by The Bird and the Bee.
(28:12):
The Sunday, December fourth, nineteeneighty eight by Robert Christmas Tree Farm
explodes. The Busy Beaver Christmas TreeFarm in Lynn County was destroyed by a
massive natural gas explosion on November twentynine. According to Lynn County Sheriff's Investigator,
Captain John O'Hara, the explosion wascaused by two careless employees on their
(28:36):
first day of my head over looks. The sentence will show to my heart
bright, watching watching you, watchingyou, watching you fly with cards,
(29:11):
you fly with love. You cantwist it around, baby, that
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