October 27, 2023 • 25 mins
In 1989: Ellen has concerns, Karen & Rob are at their wit's end, and Mark mourns a loss.
In 2012: Things get meta.
The Karen & Ellen Letters are found correspondence
Narrated and produced by: Josh Hallmark
Starring: Sara Stapleton, Sara Kitcher, Jeff Powell, and Matt Peelen
This is a Studio BOTH/AND production: bothand.fyi
For an ad-free experience: patreon.com/studiobothand
Music by:
In 2012: Things get meta.
The Karen & Ellen Letters are found correspondence
Narrated and produced by: Josh Hallmark
Starring: Sara Stapleton, Sara Kitcher, Jeff Powell, and Matt Peelen
This is a Studio BOTH/AND production: bothand.fyi
For an ad-free experience: patreon.com/studiobothand
Music by:
- Lee Rosevere
- Nightcrawlers
- Fifteen
- Retro Chillwave
- Topaz White
- Everything
Patreon producers: Adrienne Aiello, Amelia Hancock, Amy Basil, Annette L, Benjamin Cioppa-Fong, Casey Jensen-Richardson, Dana Keith, Dr. Jill Cooper, Drew Vipond, Hallie Reed, Jessica Alihodzic, Jillian Natale, John O’Leary, Kendall C, Kimberly K, Lauren F, Lynnlie Tuschoff, Manolis Boulukos, Meggan Capps-Seawel, Mike Sherman, Nicole & Dennis Henry, Sarah King, SC, Shannon Foster, Shelly Brewer, Tuesdi Woodworth, Zack Ignatowicz Warren, Beth McNally, John Comrie, Jordan Taylor, Karli McNutt, Lana, Sara Cee, Lydia Fiedler
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:09):
This is a studio both and productionwarning. Listening to this podcast may cause
unmitigating obsession and cognitive dissonance. Allnames have been changed to protect the innocent,
the insane, and everyone else inbetween. As more and more time
(00:43):
passed following my calls with Mark,I slowly returned to the fog of doubt.
Things just weren't adding up. Noneof it made sense, and even
though I couldn't come up with asingle reason for him to lie to me,
I had nothing but his word insome very flimsy evidence. I couldn't
(01:07):
find Ellen or Rob, and I'dreached out to dozens of Karens with no
luck. I became certain that theseletters that were so near and dear to
me were fake, that Mark hadjust written a story around actual events.
(01:29):
I was disappointed, and tried tomitigate that disappointment by telling myself that the
authenticity of the letters couldn't negate theexperiences they created, that even though the
letters weren't real, all the laughter, all the wine nights, and all
my investigations were, and that thosewere what mattered the most. And then,
(01:56):
deep in the disappointment of doubt,I received an email January fourth,
twenty twelve, Dear Josh, afriend of mine helped me look up this
blog thing of yours, and Idon't like it one bit. When I
emailed you before, I didn't knowthat some of the things on this blog
were some of the things you saidwere on this blog. It's not fair,
(02:16):
and you know it. I wantyou to erase the things I said
in there, especially the things Ididn't say. You better email me back
and erase all this. A fewweeks prior, I'd gone on a Facebook
rampage messaging anyone with Karen's name whoI could find in the Portland metro area.
(02:40):
I had a static message that basicallyasked if she'd lived with someone by
Ellen's name in the Bay area inthe late eighties, and then explained that
I may have some of her oldcorrespondents. Stupidly, I also included a
link to the blog, but afterabout thirty unanswered messages, I gave up.
(03:07):
But sure enough, one of thosethirty Karens was now emailing me,
and she was not happy. Thiswas the first contact I'd received from Karen,
and I hastily poured through my junkmail on both Gmail and Facebook desperately
trying to find the previous message she'dmentioned in her email. I never did
(03:30):
find it, though, and thiscertainly wouldn't be my last contact with Karen.
And back in nineteen eighty nine,Mark still had not heard the last
of Karen or Ellen or Rob.January third, nineteen eighty nine, Dear
(03:54):
Mark, I've been studying the lettersyou sent Karen a few days ago,
and I've been thinking and thinking aboutit. If you won't send karen security
deposit back to her, why don'tyou just send it to me instead?
Then I can split the money withKaren when your check arrives. That way,
everybody is happy, you know,Mark, If you don't mind my
(04:14):
saying so, your letters to Karenlately have been sounding a little unfriendly.
This can give you bad karma.You should try meditating before you write letters.
It's very soothing, and meditating isvery chic right now. And speaking
of bad karma, Karen says thatshe heard that they are building a doomed
baseball stadium in your hometown in Baltimore. Talk about bad karma, your tenant.
(04:38):
Ellen January third, nineteen eighty nine, Dear Mark, Well, you
sure we're right about one thing?In your last letter. I have no
idea what you were talking about.I don't want some stupa plant that makes
people vomit. I'm not dumb,you know. I just want back my
security deposit. Rob says that hethought your letter was insulting. Ellen isn't
(05:00):
sure. I think you may havebeen joking, but if you were,
I didn't get it. But let'sget down to business. So now,
in addition to everything else you oweme, you also owe me the one
hundred and ninety seven dollars, whichis almost two hundred dollars that Ellen paid
for the cat painting. And whatabout the mermaid clock we left. Ellen
thinks it's a real old valuable antique. Karen, January tenth, nineteen eighty
(05:27):
nine. Dear Karen, when yougave me the Mermaid clock, you said
it was a gift. Therefore,you have no right to expect me to
pay you for it. Now Icannot return the clock to you anyway,
as I, in turn, havegiven the clock to my decorator, mister
James of San Francisco, as agod gift. Your Mermaid clock is not
(05:56):
a real old valuable antique, auseyou believe there are some subtle signs that
this clock is not in antiquity,signs that undoubtedly escaped your keen eye.
A the clock is made entirely ofplastic, and B the clock is battery
(06:18):
operated. In any case, Iam not going to pay you for this
clock, whose only value is inmy humble opinion, as an object of
ridicule. Sincerely, Mark, Januarytenth, nineteen eighty nine. Dear Mark,
(06:39):
my typewriter is broken, so I'msending you this letter I wrote myself
because my typewriter is broken. Anyway, I don't seem to be getting anywhere
on my security deposit refund. Ijust seem to be spinning a wheel.
I can't seem to get anyone tohelp me either. Rob's letters to you
don't seem to be getting anywhere.Allan says she isn't practical enough to figure
(07:00):
out how to make you pay uswhat you owe us. She's an artist,
you know. I told my fatherthat I've been sending you letters demanding
my deposit back, and he sayshe feels sorry for you, not me.
It's unbelievable. I'm afraid I'm goingto run out of ideas. So
although I don't want to spoil ourfriendship if I don't get my security deposit
(07:21):
back from you, plus interest atthirty four point four percent a year we
agreed upon in the next week,I'm going to have to file a complaint
against you with a Portland Better BusinessBureau. I'm sorry to have to do
this, but you are not leavingme with much choice. Yours, Karen,
January sixteenth, nineteen eighty nine.Well, my typewriter is fixed now
(07:46):
so I can typewrite letters again.Rob broke the typewriter. It was an
accident that could have happened to anyone. You know. It's a funny thing.
It cost me almost exactly one hundredand ninety seven dollars, which is
almost two hundred dollars to have thetype whipe writer repair shop clean out all
the honey, which is almost exactlythe same amount that you owe us for
the cat painting. Isn't that something? Well? The reason I'm writing to
(08:11):
you is that I would like youto do me a little favor. Would
you send the enclosed letter from Robto your uncle to your uncle, the
one who teaches law at a lawschool in Boston, along with a letter
of recommendation from you. Thanks,yours, Karen. January sixteenth, nineteen
eighty nine. Dear Professor Albert,I would like to go to law school.
(08:35):
Your nephew Mark told my wife Karenthat you teach it a law school.
I would like to go to lawschool so I can become a lawyer
or maybe a judge. My wifeKaren and I went to Berkeley for a
little bit last year. Recently,for a little while, my wife Karen
and I worked at a Christmas treefarm near my hometown Portland, Oregon.
We didn't see much of a futurein that business. Recently. For a
(08:56):
while before that, I worked ata video Money is no problem for me
or my wife Karen. Both mywife Karen and I have big trust funds
that can pay for college. Also, my wife Karen's parents and my parents
have gobs of money. They saythat they're willing to pay anything to send
me and my wife Karen to college. Can you help me get into your
(09:20):
law school? Sincerely, Raw,January twenty first, nineteen eighty nine.
Dear Karen, I give up.I thought I could get you to stop
writing letters to me demanding money byridiculing your letters to me with sarcastic replies
(09:41):
I feel I owe you an apology. From a moral standpoint, it was
wrong of me to try to makeyou feel embarrassed, and from a practical
standpoint, it was also wrong,since I should have known that there was
no realistic possibility that you were goingto catch the Sarca as a man.
(10:03):
However, I do have one finalhope, so here it goes, Karen,
I suggest that you show the copiesof all your letters to me and
my replies to you to your father. Although I have never met him,
your father strikes me as a veryintelligent, rational and well educated man.
(10:24):
Perhaps after he reads all of ourcorrespondents, he will be able to explain
things to you better than I havebeen able to do. Mark. Ps.
This does not mean that I'm goingto send you any money. January
twenty eighth, nineteen eighty nine,Mark, I showed all of our letters
(10:46):
to my father, just like yousaid I should. He says, Rob
was right, your letters have beeninsulting me. I should have known Rob
was right. He's smart. He'sgoing to be a lawyer or a judge,
somedays you and I should have knownyou were insulting me when you offered
to give me that stupid plant thatmakes people vomit. Instead of paying me
(11:07):
all the money you owe me,I would have to have had to have
been pretty stupid to have taken thatdeal. Well, just because you're being
so mean to me, I'm notgoing to bother to sue you in Portland
Small Claims Court or Oakland Small ClaimsCourt or write to you ever again.
I hope that will teach you alesson. Karen, January twenty ninth,
(11:35):
nineteen eighty nine. Dear Mark,I know I said I wouldn't write to
you ever again, and I'm notgoing to write to you ever again.
But I'm writing to tell you thateven though I'm not going to write to
you ever again, you still oweme ninety two hundred dollars, which I
could really use. You also oweme one hundred ninety seven dollars for the
cat painting, which I could alsoreally use. Ninety two hundred dollars plus
(11:56):
one hundred and ninety seven dollars twentyseven dollars Karen. The second most unbelievable
item included in that file folder ofcorrespondence was a second news clipping. However,
this article wasn't about Karen or Ellen. It was written by one of
(12:20):
them, and the only way Icould rationalize its publication was that someone assumed
it was a satirical piece. Editor. The Berkeley Police Department is planning to
buy a dog trained to sniff drugs. Now, I feel that Berkeley already
has its fair share and more thanits fair share, of people who sniff
(12:45):
drugs. We don't need dog sniffingdrugs too, Don't we already have enough
trouble just from the people who sniffdrugs. This inhumane plan to buy drug
sniffing dogs raises five questions in mymind. One would anyone want to buy
a dog, or, for thatmatter, any other pet which sniffs drugs?
Two? When and if the BPDgets this drug sniffing dog, Who's
(13:11):
going to buy the drugs for thesedogs to sniff? Who's going to pay
for this poor dog's drug addiction?Will Berkeley taxpayers have to pay for these
drugs? Three? In a citywhere the animal rights movement is supposed to
be strong, how come the SPCAhasn't complained about the obvious cruelty involved in
buying a doggy drug addict? Four? How much police work will this dog
(13:35):
be able to do? When it'szonked out on drugs, probably not very
much. Now it seems that theonly debate in the city council is whether
the police should buy a German Shepherd, which is what they want, or
a beagle, which is what thecouncil wants. This debate overlooks the real
question, which is why should theBerkeley police buy a dog that uses drugs
(13:56):
at all? I think that theBerkeley Police Department should be trying to discourage
drug use. It sets a badexample to the public for the BPD to
buy a drug sniffing police dog.Right to the city council, tell them
to tell the BPD not to buydogs that are hooked on drugs. The
police should have a sober dog ornone at all. Ellen. I was
(14:24):
never able to find this article anywhere. I always assumed because it was pre
Internet and hadn't been digitally archived.But in the first run of the podcast,
several people brought something to my attentionthat I've never really noticed, and
it led to an interesting theory,a theory I briefly mentioned earlier this season,
(14:46):
A theory that simultaneously validated my perceptionof things and pulled the Persian rug
right out from under Me March seventeenth, nineteen eighty nine, Weir Albert and
Benja. Quote Karen says that allegationsare being made against her, and she's
going to find the alligator. Endquote Ellen, September eighth, nineteen eighty
(15:13):
eight letter. Although I never thoughti'd say this, I miss Karen and
her friends. Of course, thatdoesn't mean I would take them back as
tenants of mine. Nevertheless, Ido miss them up to a point.
Karen called me the other day onthe phone. She said she was in
(15:35):
Berkeley for a few days visiting friends. She said that the reason she was
calling me was that she wanted tolet me know that she still isn't speaking
to me. Karen said that shecalled me so I would know that she
was in town and therefore could havecalled me, but that she wasn't going
to call me. Is that clear? Then said to her, Well,
(16:00):
then I guess there's nothing more tobe said. In an effort to end
the conversation, Karen replied, ina somewhat angry tone, knock when there's
nothing more to be said, youcan be sure that I'll be the one
to say it. Good bye.Then she hung up. It looks like
she's still mad at me. I'msorry about that. I don't like to
(16:23):
have former tenants think I've treated themunfairly. Right now, I'm reviewing some
of the notes I took of mytelephone conversations with Ellen while she was still
a tenant of mine. Some ofthem are rather interesting. Karen says that
allegations are being made against her andshe's going to find the alligator. I
(16:47):
used to be a Gemini, butnow I think I'll be in aries for
a while and see how I likeit. I wish I had a dollar
for every dollar I wish I had. You really should see the movie The
Untouchables. It's all about al Capone, who was a bootliquor back in the
nineteen twenties. Giant oafs from littleacorns grow. What does he mean?
(17:11):
It was undeniable that Mark was real, and at the time I was in
a somewhat heated email battle with Karen. And if this wasn't the real Karen,
it was surely the most brilliant trollto ever descend upon the Internet.
But I was pretty sure it washer and Ellen well, she's mentioned in
(17:37):
the letters by both Mark and Karenso it's not like she never existed at
all? Right? Right? CouldEllen's letters be fake? Was the heart
and soul of the Karen and EllenLetters entirely made up? I found myself
once again asking that same old question. To what end. I wasn't sure
(18:03):
if the pieces were all coming togetheror if the big picture was falling apart.
It was January of twenty twelve theCosta Concordia cruise ship ran aground in
(18:30):
Italy. Barack Obama became the Democraticfrontrunner after winning the Iowa caucus. The
US government took a hard stance onInternet piracy, and in Seattle, Washington,
the Karen and Ellen Letters blog becamemeta, which sparked some polarizing ethical
(18:52):
debates. When you find newborn doubtdiminic, it's easy to become overcome with
the excitement of evidence. And inthat excitement I did something uncharacteristically stupid and
unkind. I copied Karen's email andposted it to the blog, much like
(19:19):
I'm doing now on this very podcast, Although in the ensuing thirteen years a
lot has changed. Of course,knowing what I know now doesn't excuse what
I so thoughtlessly did back then.I spent the better part of that day
(19:45):
writing and rewriting a response to Karen, only really thinking about how this new
development might impact the blog, andby the time I was ready to hit
send, I noticed that a newemail from her had already arrived. I
read it a few times with absoluteelation, before once again copying it and
(20:15):
posting it to the blog. Januaryfourth, twenty twelve, Josh I spent
more time looking at me and Ellen'sletters to Mark, and then I saw
that you put my email to youabout me and Ellen's letters up with me
and Ellen's letters on the block.I don't know why you think that.
When I want you to erase theseletters, I would want you to put
(20:36):
up my email. I'm not stupid, you know. I know what I'm
being made fun of. Take allthose down, or I'm going to do
something. It's frightening how easy itcan be to get caught up in something,
To get so caught up in anexperience that you can't see beyond it
(20:59):
any more, that you stop behavinglike yourself, you stop thinking rationally,
everything becomes about the experience. Hysteriais so dangerous because most of the time
you don't even realize you're in it. Until it's over and you can finally
(21:23):
see all the damage you've done.Regardless of what I know now or what
happened after. What I did nextwas low, it was gross, It
was so out of character. Theblog had officially become bigger than me.
(21:45):
And the most dangerous thing about hysteriais how addictive it can be and how
quickly it can spread. January fourth, twenty twelve. Hi, Karen,
what your emails? All three ofthem. I'm sorry you're upset, rest
assured that there's no way any ofthis can be traced back to you.
(22:07):
And for what it's worth, you'vebecome quite popular through your old correspondence.
I think this is a great opportunityfor you to look back at some of
the good times you and Ellen had. Speaking of Ellen, do you still
have a relationship with her? Asfar as removing these emails and letters?
To be quite honest, at thispoint, I don't anticipate doing that.
I may remove a portion of themif you'd like, but I'd prefer to
(22:30):
keep some of the more remarkable letterson the blog. I hope you understand
my point of view and that youcan take the time to appreciate having this
chapter of your life available to youto share with others. Thanks again,
Josh, and with one shitty email, the addiction would continue to spread.
(22:52):
January fourth, twenty twelve, Josh, what do you mean I've gotten popular?
He never had a relationship. Wewere just friends. We're not friends
anymore. We haven't been friends fora long time. The Karen and Ellen
(23:22):
Letters are found correspondents narrated by meJosh Hallmark and voiced by Sarah Stapleton,
Sarah Kitcher, Jeff Powell, andMatt Palin. This episode was made possible
by the following Patreon producers Adrian IYello, Amelia Hancock, Amy Basel and
natt Elle, Benjamin Choppa, Fong, Casey Jensen, Richardson, Dana Keith,
(23:44):
Doctor Jill Cooper, Drew Vipond,Hallie Reed, Jessica, Ali Hoadzick,
Jillian Natale, John O'Leary, Kendall, c kimberly Ka, Lauren f
Linley, tuscoff Manolas Bulicus, Megancap Sewell, Mike Sherman, Nicole and
Dennis Henry, Sarah King, sC. Shannon Fostership Brewer, Tuesday Woodworth,
Zach mcnatowitz, Warren Beth McNally,John Comrie, Jordan Taylor, Carly
(24:06):
McNutt, Lana Sarah Sie, andLydia Fiedler. If you'd like to support
the show, go topatreon dot com, slash Studio both and this episode featured
music by Lee Rosevir Everything Nightcrawlers,fifteen, Retro Chillwave, and Topaz White
(25:14):
S S S S
This is a studio both and productionwarning. Listening to this podcast may cause
unmitigating obsession and cognitive dissonance. Allnames have been changed to protect the innocent,
the insane, and everyone else inbetween. As more and more time
(00:43):
passed following my calls with Mark,I slowly returned to the fog of doubt.
Things just weren't adding up. Noneof it made sense, and even
though I couldn't come up with asingle reason for him to lie to me,
I had nothing but his word insome very flimsy evidence. I couldn't
(01:07):
find Ellen or Rob, and I'dreached out to dozens of Karens with no
luck. I became certain that theseletters that were so near and dear to
me were fake, that Mark hadjust written a story around actual events.
(01:29):
I was disappointed, and tried tomitigate that disappointment by telling myself that the
authenticity of the letters couldn't negate theexperiences they created, that even though the
letters weren't real, all the laughter, all the wine nights, and all
my investigations were, and that thosewere what mattered the most. And then,
(01:56):
deep in the disappointment of doubt,I received an email January fourth,
twenty twelve, Dear Josh, afriend of mine helped me look up this
blog thing of yours, and Idon't like it one bit. When I
emailed you before, I didn't knowthat some of the things on this blog
were some of the things you saidwere on this blog. It's not fair,
(02:16):
and you know it. I wantyou to erase the things I said
in there, especially the things Ididn't say. You better email me back
and erase all this. A fewweeks prior, I'd gone on a Facebook
rampage messaging anyone with Karen's name whoI could find in the Portland metro area.
(02:40):
I had a static message that basicallyasked if she'd lived with someone by
Ellen's name in the Bay area inthe late eighties, and then explained that
I may have some of her oldcorrespondents. Stupidly, I also included a
link to the blog, but afterabout thirty unanswered messages, I gave up.
(03:07):
But sure enough, one of thosethirty Karens was now emailing me,
and she was not happy. Thiswas the first contact I'd received from Karen,
and I hastily poured through my junkmail on both Gmail and Facebook desperately
trying to find the previous message she'dmentioned in her email. I never did
(03:30):
find it, though, and thiscertainly wouldn't be my last contact with Karen.
And back in nineteen eighty nine,Mark still had not heard the last
of Karen or Ellen or Rob.January third, nineteen eighty nine, Dear
(03:54):
Mark, I've been studying the lettersyou sent Karen a few days ago,
and I've been thinking and thinking aboutit. If you won't send karen security
deposit back to her, why don'tyou just send it to me instead?
Then I can split the money withKaren when your check arrives. That way,
everybody is happy, you know,Mark, If you don't mind my
(04:14):
saying so, your letters to Karenlately have been sounding a little unfriendly.
This can give you bad karma.You should try meditating before you write letters.
It's very soothing, and meditating isvery chic right now. And speaking
of bad karma, Karen says thatshe heard that they are building a doomed
baseball stadium in your hometown in Baltimore. Talk about bad karma, your tenant.
(04:38):
Ellen January third, nineteen eighty nine, Dear Mark, Well, you
sure we're right about one thing?In your last letter. I have no
idea what you were talking about.I don't want some stupa plant that makes
people vomit. I'm not dumb,you know. I just want back my
security deposit. Rob says that hethought your letter was insulting. Ellen isn't
(05:00):
sure. I think you may havebeen joking, but if you were,
I didn't get it. But let'sget down to business. So now,
in addition to everything else you oweme, you also owe me the one
hundred and ninety seven dollars, whichis almost two hundred dollars that Ellen paid
for the cat painting. And whatabout the mermaid clock we left. Ellen
thinks it's a real old valuable antique. Karen, January tenth, nineteen eighty
(05:27):
nine. Dear Karen, when yougave me the Mermaid clock, you said
it was a gift. Therefore,you have no right to expect me to
pay you for it. Now Icannot return the clock to you anyway,
as I, in turn, havegiven the clock to my decorator, mister
James of San Francisco, as agod gift. Your Mermaid clock is not
(05:56):
a real old valuable antique, auseyou believe there are some subtle signs that
this clock is not in antiquity,signs that undoubtedly escaped your keen eye.
A the clock is made entirely ofplastic, and B the clock is battery
(06:18):
operated. In any case, Iam not going to pay you for this
clock, whose only value is inmy humble opinion, as an object of
ridicule. Sincerely, Mark, Januarytenth, nineteen eighty nine. Dear Mark,
(06:39):
my typewriter is broken, so I'msending you this letter I wrote myself
because my typewriter is broken. Anyway, I don't seem to be getting anywhere
on my security deposit refund. Ijust seem to be spinning a wheel.
I can't seem to get anyone tohelp me either. Rob's letters to you
don't seem to be getting anywhere.Allan says she isn't practical enough to figure
(07:00):
out how to make you pay uswhat you owe us. She's an artist,
you know. I told my fatherthat I've been sending you letters demanding
my deposit back, and he sayshe feels sorry for you, not me.
It's unbelievable. I'm afraid I'm goingto run out of ideas. So
although I don't want to spoil ourfriendship if I don't get my security deposit
(07:21):
back from you, plus interest atthirty four point four percent a year we
agreed upon in the next week,I'm going to have to file a complaint
against you with a Portland Better BusinessBureau. I'm sorry to have to do
this, but you are not leavingme with much choice. Yours, Karen,
January sixteenth, nineteen eighty nine.Well, my typewriter is fixed now
(07:46):
so I can typewrite letters again.Rob broke the typewriter. It was an
accident that could have happened to anyone. You know. It's a funny thing.
It cost me almost exactly one hundredand ninety seven dollars, which is
almost two hundred dollars to have thetype whipe writer repair shop clean out all
the honey, which is almost exactlythe same amount that you owe us for
the cat painting. Isn't that something? Well? The reason I'm writing to
(08:11):
you is that I would like youto do me a little favor. Would
you send the enclosed letter from Robto your uncle to your uncle, the
one who teaches law at a lawschool in Boston, along with a letter
of recommendation from you. Thanks,yours, Karen. January sixteenth, nineteen
eighty nine. Dear Professor Albert,I would like to go to law school.
(08:35):
Your nephew Mark told my wife Karenthat you teach it a law school.
I would like to go to lawschool so I can become a lawyer
or maybe a judge. My wifeKaren and I went to Berkeley for a
little bit last year. Recently,for a little while, my wife Karen
and I worked at a Christmas treefarm near my hometown Portland, Oregon.
We didn't see much of a futurein that business. Recently. For a
(08:56):
while before that, I worked ata video Money is no problem for me
or my wife Karen. Both mywife Karen and I have big trust funds
that can pay for college. Also, my wife Karen's parents and my parents
have gobs of money. They saythat they're willing to pay anything to send
me and my wife Karen to college. Can you help me get into your
(09:20):
law school? Sincerely, Raw,January twenty first, nineteen eighty nine.
Dear Karen, I give up.I thought I could get you to stop
writing letters to me demanding money byridiculing your letters to me with sarcastic replies
(09:41):
I feel I owe you an apology. From a moral standpoint, it was
wrong of me to try to makeyou feel embarrassed, and from a practical
standpoint, it was also wrong,since I should have known that there was
no realistic possibility that you were goingto catch the Sarca as a man.
(10:03):
However, I do have one finalhope, so here it goes, Karen,
I suggest that you show the copiesof all your letters to me and
my replies to you to your father. Although I have never met him,
your father strikes me as a veryintelligent, rational and well educated man.
(10:24):
Perhaps after he reads all of ourcorrespondents, he will be able to explain
things to you better than I havebeen able to do. Mark. Ps.
This does not mean that I'm goingto send you any money. January
twenty eighth, nineteen eighty nine,Mark, I showed all of our letters
(10:46):
to my father, just like yousaid I should. He says, Rob
was right, your letters have beeninsulting me. I should have known Rob
was right. He's smart. He'sgoing to be a lawyer or a judge,
somedays you and I should have knownyou were insulting me when you offered
to give me that stupid plant thatmakes people vomit. Instead of paying me
(11:07):
all the money you owe me,I would have to have had to have
been pretty stupid to have taken thatdeal. Well, just because you're being
so mean to me, I'm notgoing to bother to sue you in Portland
Small Claims Court or Oakland Small ClaimsCourt or write to you ever again.
I hope that will teach you alesson. Karen, January twenty ninth,
(11:35):
nineteen eighty nine. Dear Mark,I know I said I wouldn't write to
you ever again, and I'm notgoing to write to you ever again.
But I'm writing to tell you thateven though I'm not going to write to
you ever again, you still oweme ninety two hundred dollars, which I
could really use. You also oweme one hundred ninety seven dollars for the
cat painting, which I could alsoreally use. Ninety two hundred dollars plus
(11:56):
one hundred and ninety seven dollars twentyseven dollars Karen. The second most unbelievable
item included in that file folder ofcorrespondence was a second news clipping. However,
this article wasn't about Karen or Ellen. It was written by one of
(12:20):
them, and the only way Icould rationalize its publication was that someone assumed
it was a satirical piece. Editor. The Berkeley Police Department is planning to
buy a dog trained to sniff drugs. Now, I feel that Berkeley already
has its fair share and more thanits fair share, of people who sniff
(12:45):
drugs. We don't need dog sniffingdrugs too, Don't we already have enough
trouble just from the people who sniffdrugs. This inhumane plan to buy drug
sniffing dogs raises five questions in mymind. One would anyone want to buy
a dog, or, for thatmatter, any other pet which sniffs drugs?
Two? When and if the BPDgets this drug sniffing dog, Who's
(13:11):
going to buy the drugs for thesedogs to sniff? Who's going to pay
for this poor dog's drug addiction?Will Berkeley taxpayers have to pay for these
drugs? Three? In a citywhere the animal rights movement is supposed to
be strong, how come the SPCAhasn't complained about the obvious cruelty involved in
buying a doggy drug addict? Four? How much police work will this dog
(13:35):
be able to do? When it'szonked out on drugs, probably not very
much. Now it seems that theonly debate in the city council is whether
the police should buy a German Shepherd, which is what they want, or
a beagle, which is what thecouncil wants. This debate overlooks the real
question, which is why should theBerkeley police buy a dog that uses drugs
(13:56):
at all? I think that theBerkeley Police Department should be trying to discourage
drug use. It sets a badexample to the public for the BPD to
buy a drug sniffing police dog.Right to the city council, tell them
to tell the BPD not to buydogs that are hooked on drugs. The
police should have a sober dog ornone at all. Ellen. I was
(14:24):
never able to find this article anywhere. I always assumed because it was pre
Internet and hadn't been digitally archived.But in the first run of the podcast,
several people brought something to my attentionthat I've never really noticed, and
it led to an interesting theory,a theory I briefly mentioned earlier this season,
(14:46):
A theory that simultaneously validated my perceptionof things and pulled the Persian rug
right out from under Me March seventeenth, nineteen eighty nine, Weir Albert and
Benja. Quote Karen says that allegationsare being made against her, and she's
going to find the alligator. Endquote Ellen, September eighth, nineteen eighty
(15:13):
eight letter. Although I never thoughti'd say this, I miss Karen and
her friends. Of course, thatdoesn't mean I would take them back as
tenants of mine. Nevertheless, Ido miss them up to a point.
Karen called me the other day onthe phone. She said she was in
(15:35):
Berkeley for a few days visiting friends. She said that the reason she was
calling me was that she wanted tolet me know that she still isn't speaking
to me. Karen said that shecalled me so I would know that she
was in town and therefore could havecalled me, but that she wasn't going
to call me. Is that clear? Then said to her, Well,
(16:00):
then I guess there's nothing more tobe said. In an effort to end
the conversation, Karen replied, ina somewhat angry tone, knock when there's
nothing more to be said, youcan be sure that I'll be the one
to say it. Good bye.Then she hung up. It looks like
she's still mad at me. I'msorry about that. I don't like to
(16:23):
have former tenants think I've treated themunfairly. Right now, I'm reviewing some
of the notes I took of mytelephone conversations with Ellen while she was still
a tenant of mine. Some ofthem are rather interesting. Karen says that
allegations are being made against her andshe's going to find the alligator. I
(16:47):
used to be a Gemini, butnow I think I'll be in aries for
a while and see how I likeit. I wish I had a dollar
for every dollar I wish I had. You really should see the movie The
Untouchables. It's all about al Capone, who was a bootliquor back in the
nineteen twenties. Giant oafs from littleacorns grow. What does he mean?
(17:11):
It was undeniable that Mark was real, and at the time I was in
a somewhat heated email battle with Karen. And if this wasn't the real Karen,
it was surely the most brilliant trollto ever descend upon the Internet.
But I was pretty sure it washer and Ellen well, she's mentioned in
(17:37):
the letters by both Mark and Karenso it's not like she never existed at
all? Right? Right? CouldEllen's letters be fake? Was the heart
and soul of the Karen and EllenLetters entirely made up? I found myself
once again asking that same old question. To what end. I wasn't sure
(18:03):
if the pieces were all coming togetheror if the big picture was falling apart.
It was January of twenty twelve theCosta Concordia cruise ship ran aground in
(18:30):
Italy. Barack Obama became the Democraticfrontrunner after winning the Iowa caucus. The
US government took a hard stance onInternet piracy, and in Seattle, Washington,
the Karen and Ellen Letters blog becamemeta, which sparked some polarizing ethical
(18:52):
debates. When you find newborn doubtdiminic, it's easy to become overcome with
the excitement of evidence. And inthat excitement I did something uncharacteristically stupid and
unkind. I copied Karen's email andposted it to the blog, much like
(19:19):
I'm doing now on this very podcast, Although in the ensuing thirteen years a
lot has changed. Of course,knowing what I know now doesn't excuse what
I so thoughtlessly did back then.I spent the better part of that day
(19:45):
writing and rewriting a response to Karen, only really thinking about how this new
development might impact the blog, andby the time I was ready to hit
send, I noticed that a newemail from her had already arrived. I
read it a few times with absoluteelation, before once again copying it and
(20:15):
posting it to the blog. Januaryfourth, twenty twelve, Josh I spent
more time looking at me and Ellen'sletters to Mark, and then I saw
that you put my email to youabout me and Ellen's letters up with me
and Ellen's letters on the block.I don't know why you think that.
When I want you to erase theseletters, I would want you to put
(20:36):
up my email. I'm not stupid, you know. I know what I'm
being made fun of. Take allthose down, or I'm going to do
something. It's frightening how easy itcan be to get caught up in something,
To get so caught up in anexperience that you can't see beyond it
(20:59):
any more, that you stop behavinglike yourself, you stop thinking rationally,
everything becomes about the experience. Hysteriais so dangerous because most of the time
you don't even realize you're in it. Until it's over and you can finally
(21:23):
see all the damage you've done.Regardless of what I know now or what
happened after. What I did nextwas low, it was gross, It
was so out of character. Theblog had officially become bigger than me.
(21:45):
And the most dangerous thing about hysteriais how addictive it can be and how
quickly it can spread. January fourth, twenty twelve. Hi, Karen,
what your emails? All three ofthem. I'm sorry you're upset, rest
assured that there's no way any ofthis can be traced back to you.
(22:07):
And for what it's worth, you'vebecome quite popular through your old correspondence.
I think this is a great opportunityfor you to look back at some of
the good times you and Ellen had. Speaking of Ellen, do you still
have a relationship with her? Asfar as removing these emails and letters?
To be quite honest, at thispoint, I don't anticipate doing that.
I may remove a portion of themif you'd like, but I'd prefer to
(22:30):
keep some of the more remarkable letterson the blog. I hope you understand
my point of view and that youcan take the time to appreciate having this
chapter of your life available to youto share with others. Thanks again,
Josh, and with one shitty email, the addiction would continue to spread.
(22:52):
January fourth, twenty twelve, Josh, what do you mean I've gotten popular?
He never had a relationship. Wewere just friends. We're not friends
anymore. We haven't been friends fora long time. The Karen and Ellen
(23:22):
Letters are found correspondents narrated by meJosh Hallmark and voiced by Sarah Stapleton,
Sarah Kitcher, Jeff Powell, andMatt Palin. This episode was made possible
by the following Patreon producers Adrian IYello, Amelia Hancock, Amy Basel and
natt Elle, Benjamin Choppa, Fong, Casey Jensen, Richardson, Dana Keith,
(23:44):
Doctor Jill Cooper, Drew Vipond,Hallie Reed, Jessica, Ali Hoadzick,
Jillian Natale, John O'Leary, Kendall, c kimberly Ka, Lauren f
Linley, tuscoff Manolas Bulicus, Megancap Sewell, Mike Sherman, Nicole and
Dennis Henry, Sarah King, sC. Shannon Fostership Brewer, Tuesday Woodworth,
Zach mcnatowitz, Warren Beth McNally,John Comrie, Jordan Taylor, Carly
(24:06):
McNutt, Lana Sarah Sie, andLydia Fiedler. If you'd like to support
the show, go topatreon dot com, slash Studio both and this episode featured
music by Lee Rosevir Everything Nightcrawlers,fifteen, Retro Chillwave, and Topaz White
(25:14):
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