7. You Know Who

The season finale.

Season 2 begins on January 29.

The Karen & Ellen Letters are found correspondence
Narrated and produced by: Josh Hallmark
Starring: Sara Stapleton, Sara Kitcher, Jeff Powell, Matt Peelen, Chris Green, Vicki Russell, Megan Chaney-Walker, Eric Schmidt, Paul Csomo, and Zoe Marshall-Rashid

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For an ad-free experience: patreon.com/studiobothand

Music by:

• Lee Rosevere
• Chris Zabriskie
• Roie Shpigler
• Galactic Realms
• Icarus
• Digital Battlefield
• Tide
• Droid Bishop
• Night Crawlers
• Retro Chillwave
• Everything
  Featured music: Maria Taylor
  
  
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Episode Transcript

(00:09):
This is a studio both and production. This is the season one finale of
The Karen and Ellen Letters. TheKaren and Ellen Letters will return with its
second and final season on January twentythird. Warning listening to this podcast may

(00:29):
cause unmitigating obsession and cognitive dissonance.All names have been changed to protect the
innocent, the insane, and everyoneelse in between. It was January of

(00:51):
twenty twelve. The blog had reachedits peak with approximately seventeen thousand hits per
day, and the Karen and Ellenfollowers were quickly becoming divided over whether it
was okay for me to be postingKaren's emails or not, and the naysayers

(01:11):
began levying personal attacks against me.Meanwhile, in Oakland, California, Mark
was about to visit the blog forthe first time and what appeared to be
a while and the blog days wereabout to be over. January fourth,

(01:32):
twenty twelve. Josh, when Isend my emails to you, do they
just show up on the block.Why haven't you emailed me back yet?
I have to go to bed soonbecause I have to get up tomorrow morning.
Ellen was washing the goldfish. Januaryfifth, twenty twelve, Hi Karen,
thanks for being patient on my response. In terms of your popularity,

(01:56):
this blog is read by over seventeenthousand people over sixty five countries, and
many people have commented on how muchthey love reading your letters to Mark and
even now to me, people seemto really be drawn to your unique point
of view and persistence, and Iknow people would love to hear more about
those letters and what you've been upto since. I'm not sure what you

(02:17):
mean when you say Ellen was washingthe goldfish? Can you explain? Additionally,
I live near Portland and there often. I think it would be great
if we could grab a drink orcoffee next time i'm there. What do
you think? January fifth, twentytwelve. Dear Josh, your email was
very nice, but I don't understandhow can all those people read it if

(02:39):
it's in English. That doesn't makea lot of sense to me. I
read a letter from Ellen from Ellenthat said she was washing something in the
backyard when the man looked at her, But she was washing the goldfish.
We used to wash those goldfish,but they kept dying. Anyway, Mark
blamed us for it. He wasa real jerk. We were just trying

(03:00):
to make it by on our ownand have fun. Why would you come
out have a drink with me ifyou haven't even accepted my friend request.
Besides, I don't even know youare all these people paying you to read
my letters on this blog. Karen, January sixth, twenty twelve, Josh,

(03:21):
why do you take so long toemail me back when I email you?
Also, you didn't answer my questionabout when I send my emails to
you, do they just end upon the block? Bye? I never
heard from Karen after that last email, And while that may seem surprising,
by the end of this episode,it may become clear why, and if

(03:44):
not by then, by next seasonyou'll understand. And while I never did
accept her Facebook friend request, Ioften wonder what would have happened had I
if we'd even be here right nowtoday. September tenth, nineteen eighty eight.

(04:13):
Dear Mark, I'm a volunteer workerwith the Bush for President campaign.
They suggested that I could be ofhelp to Bush by writing letters to people
I already knew at home, ratherthan working at their office. Anyway,
I'm writing to you to ask youto vote for George Bush. I've done
a lot of thinking about this election, which is my first. Anyway,

(04:33):
I think you should vote for Bushfor these five reasons. Number one,
George Bush has six letters in hisfirst name and four letters in his last
name, both even numbers. MichaelDucaccus has seven letters in both his first
and last names, an odd number. Of course, seven plus seven equals

(04:54):
fourteen, which is even, butit doesn't work that way. Number two
Bush is a Gemini, but Ducaccusis a Scorpio, and you know what
that means. Quail and Benson areboth Aquarians, so that doesn't mean anything.
Number three Bush is a Republican.Number four do Caucus is a Democrat.

(05:14):
I'm sure that once you consider theseimportant issues, you will vote for
George Bush, along with Karen roband me yours Ellen. I'm sure you
remember Ellen's campaign letter. What atfirst was just a hilarious political exchange between
her and Mark would, upon furtherinvestigation, become possibly quite revealing and important.

(05:41):
You see, I've always known thatthere were other copies of these letters
floating around. Even Mark mentioned overthe phone that I wasn't the first person
to call him looking for answers,and as I've found, everyone who's gotten
their hands on these letters has wanteda copy for themselves, so between the
Kinko's guy, my friend who giftedthem to me, and my own,

(06:04):
there were at the very least threecopies circulating. And I always assumed I
was the most dogged researcher, Butit turns out, at least at first,
I was wrong. A lot hadchanged since I started the podcast.
At the beginning, I was certainthat I knew everything there was to know

(06:27):
and that my theories were facts.But in the revitalization of the letters,
more people were investigating and we uncoveredmore information that had drastically changed everything I
thought I knew about Karen, Ellen, Rob and Mark. The first indication
came from an old archived Yahoo politicalforum an argument on a political forum about

(06:55):
the Karen and Ellen letters, datingyears prior to me ever receiving them July
thirty first, nineteen ninety nine.I'm looking for people with any information on
the letters floating around regarding Karen andRob, Ellen and Mark. They're from
the late eighties and deal with landlordRenter relationships, so related to George Bush

(07:17):
somehow, Catherine July thirty first,nineteen ninety nine. Since the Governor's grandfather,
the late senator from Connecticut was namedBush. It is possible that his
mother's maiden name was wouldn't it beexciting if you could find some scandal associated

(07:39):
with Governor Bush's fifth cousin twice removed? We are all waiting breathlessly. July
thirty first, nineteen ninety nine.On reflection, I should apologize for my
snotty comment. It was both rudeand unkind. I really am sorry,
Catherine. Come on, folks,don't we need to regain some sense of

(08:03):
perspective? It appears that disappointed it. They're apparent inability to dredge up any
scandal associated with Governor Bush. Hispolitical opponents are now trying to find some
associated with the descendants of people whomay or may not have been related to
his great grandmother. Isn't that justa little far fetched? July thirty first,

(08:28):
nineteen ninety nine. I liked yourfirst post better August first, nineteen
ninety nine. Uh oh, didI just see the word scandal? August
first, nineteen ninety nine. Whynot let the public decide what's important and
what Isn't you seem to want tocontrol what the public knows or doesn't know.

(08:50):
If there is a scandal, asyou seem to fear, and Bush
is unconnected with it. Why shouldhaving the public aware of this bother you?
If he is connected with it,shouldn't the public know? Six one,
twenty fourteen. I have a copyof the letters. Please email me
at gmail dot com. People onlinewere speculating that Karen, or Ellen or

(09:20):
Rob was somehow related to the Bushfamily. I mean, it wasn't entirely
impossible. I guess. The lettersdid always allude to the girls being related
to someone with money and power.And some of the names that I've redacted
from the letters are household names,names that have appeared on Fortune five hundred

(09:45):
lists or in American history books.But not Rob, Karen, eleanor Mark.
Just people mentioned in the letters,people with varying alleged connections or sociations
to the girls and Rob. Andquite frankly, that's the only explanation within
those letters for how either of thesegirls could get into UC Berkeley wealth,

(10:13):
power and connection. After all,you know who is referenced many times in
the later letters, And of coursethat begs the obvious response, I don't
know who, Please just tell me, But it also begged a less obvious

(10:35):
question. If there were multiple copiesof these letters circulating and multiple people were
looking into these letters, what hadthey found that I hadn't and what were
they doing with that information. Apriltwenty third, nineteen eighty nine, Dear

(11:07):
Mark, Karen is expecting a babyin June. She's pregnant. She says
that even though she still isn't speakingto you, it will be okay for
you to send her a nice babypresent. Karen means expensive, you know
when she says nice. Karen saysthat I should tell you that you can
just send a check to her baby'strust fund, which they are setting up.

(11:28):
If you want to send her somethingother than money, Karen says,
you could give her a prepaid diaperservice for two years. I tried getting
that for her myself. I calledthe Mother Goose Diaper service, but they
said they wouldn't do business with us. Can you imagine? Well, why
don't you try calling them? Maybeyou will have better luck with them than

(11:48):
I did. Karen is expecting eithera boy or a girl. Karen's father
has made up with Rob for thesake of the baby, which Karen's father
expects to be either a boy ora girl. Karen's father says the baby
will be a chip off the oldblockhead. I'm glad that Karen's father has
made up with Rob and is nowgiving him some respect. He used to

(12:09):
think Rob was dumb or something.Can you imagine. Well, you're probably
wondering what we've been doing since Ilast wrote to you. Well, Karen
is expecting a baby. Rob hasn'tgot a job yet, and that is
causing a lot of problems for himwith his parents. Rob's parents say that
everyone should work, and that richpeople should work to set an example to

(12:31):
all the welfare chilsellers. I haven'tgot a job either. I try and
try and stretch my brain as faras it will stretch, but still no
job. My mother says I shouldn'tworry about it. She says I should
get married and be a housewife andbe happy. You see my mother's family
that have a lot of money.I hope that people living in our old

(12:52):
house are nice. If you aregoing to send Karen a baby shower gift,
you'd better hurry. The party isMay fifteenth at Karen's grandmother's house.
Personally, I wish the party wassomeplace else. I think she doesn't like
Jews. Karen's father told me thathe doesn't mind Karen's best friend being Jewish,

(13:13):
but he says that if Karen's grandmotherknew I was Jewish, she wouldn't
let me in her house and wouldturn loose her attack dogs on me.
So I think she may be antiSemitic. I don't want to start a
family quarrel, so I suggested that, since my last name is that I
just tell Karen's grandmother that my nameis Ellen O'Brien instead. That doesn't sound
Jewish. Well, Karen's father saidthat wouldn't work. He says that a

(13:37):
name like O'Brien would be just asbad as a Jewish name as far as
Karen's grandmother is concerned. So Iuse the name Ellen Smith when I see
Karen's grandmother. I told Karen's fatherthat I don't mind pretending I'm not Jewish
when I see Karen's grandmother, butI do mind it, and Karen knows
it. Yours, Ellen, twentyeighth, nineteen eighty nine. Dear Ellen,

(14:03):
since Karen is not speaking to me, would you do me a favor
and convey my very sincere congratulations toKaren and rob on their expected baby.
From what you have told me,I think you are on the right in
your suspicions about Karen's grandmother. Ifshe would really turn loose attack dogs on

(14:24):
you if she found out that youwere Jewish, I think you should assume
she's antisemitic. I have some firsthand experience in this area myself. When
I was thirteen years old, myfather took me out of the Baltimore public
schools and sent me to Boys LatinSchool, a private school, for two

(14:45):
years, where he thought I wouldmeet quote a better class of people.
Most of the students at Boys Latinwere from old money wasp families. There
were only three Jews in the wholeschool besides myself. The school did not
admit blacks or Asians. I quicklyfound out why there were so few Jews

(15:11):
at the school. I don't wantto go into the unhappy detail, so
let me just say I learned alot about anti Semitism at Boys Latin,
and not from textbooks, but fromfirsthand experience. I'm telling you all this
because I learned the things from thisexperience from which she made profit. One

(15:33):
when somebody tells you that he doesn'tlike Jews, you should assume he means
it too. When somebody says thathe doesn't like some group of people,
what he really means is hates.Three. Anti Semitism didn't die with a

(15:54):
third Reich, although many people believeit did. For there are a lot
of anti Semites around. Five.Not all anti Semites are obvious, that
is easily spotted. Some anti Semitesare well educated, cultured, articulate,

(16:15):
rich, and come from well respectedfamilies. Six. Most important, some
anti Semites are dangerous, violent,brutal, and even sadistic. You cannot
usually tell just by looking at ananti Semite whether he is just talk or

(16:37):
whether, if given an opportunity,he will physically hurt you. It is
possible that Karen's father was just beingsarcastic when he said that Karen's grandmother would
turn loose her attack dogs on youif she found out you were Jewish.
But don't bank on it. Ihope you will profit from this. These

(17:00):
lessons were learned from experience, andthat is an expensive way to learn anything.
Sincerely, Mark May Fifth, nineteeneighty nine. Dear Mark, bad
karma, bad karma, bad karma. What can anyone say but bad karma?

(17:21):
Very bad karma, bad karma.I showed your letter to my mother.
She says that you gave good advice. And your letter to me,
you know, I remember that onceyou told me that you had an unhappy
childhood. I've been thinking and thinkingthe sober I've been trying to think of
something really deep to say to makeyou feel better and improve your karma,

(17:45):
and I finally came up with this, Mark, No, you aren't the
only person in the world with unhappychildhood memories that you have to live with.
I also have a lot of unhappyand even painful child memories that I
have to live with too. Theonly difference between us is that I don't
remember any of mine yours. EllenMay eighth, nineteen eighty nine. Dear

(18:11):
Mark, I need your advice.My mother doesn't want me to go to
Karen's baby shower because she doesn't wantme to go to the estate. You
see, I've met Karen's grandmother afew times, but I've never been to
her home. I really don't knowwhat to do. I try to do
what's right and what my mother says, because she's usually right. But Karen

(18:33):
is my best friend. Karen andRob are really my only close friends.
My mother says, I should lieto Karen and tell her that I'm sick
on the day of the shower.What do you think I'm asking you,
because my mother says you would understandhow she feels. She says she was
impressed by your letter about anti Semitism. Do you remember it? Anyway?

(18:53):
My mother says that she doesn't likeKaren's grandmother, even though she's never actually
met her or any of them.My mother says that she remembers reading about
Karen's grandmother in the Portland newspapers whenshe was in high school. Mother says
that Karen's grandmother used to be thehead of the Portland chapter of the America
First Committee and ran another committee thattried to get Henry Ford to run for

(19:17):
president against Roosevelt. Also, mothersays that when she was in high school,
she took part in a protest outsidethe estate while Karen's grandparents were having
a fundraising dinner inside for somebody namedBilbo, But she didn't get to see
Karen's grandparents because the police busted upthe protest. Can you imagine my mother?

(19:38):
Well? Anyway, Mother says thatthe kids are no good and she
says that she'd be worried about mysafety if I went there. You know,
the attack dog stuff, mother says. Karen's father and his family are
okay. She says they are moreconservative than she is, but that they
are good people. What do youthink I should do? Says she believes

(20:00):
this stuff about the attack dogs.I don't want to take a chance having
my friendship with Karen and Rob spoilt. But I don't want to be eaten
apart by a bunch of mean pitbullies either, Yours, Ellen, May
tenth, nineteen eighty nine. Mark, I know that I'm writing you this
letter even though I know I toldyou I wouldn't write to you ever again,

(20:22):
and I won't write you ever again. But I'm writing you this letter
to tell you I got your card, but there was no baby gift attached.
Since I'm not writing to you ortalking to you even though i'm writing
you this letter, I'll have Allanwrite to you to remind you just send
the baby gift Karen. The dayI posted that last email from Karen,

(20:45):
I got a voicemail from Mark.It said something to the effect of,
Josh, this is Mark. Thishas gone too far. Shut down the
blog and take down the letters,please. I don't want anything to do
with this. So, with pressurenow from both Mark and Karen, I
finally did shut down the blog.But the thing about these letters is it's

(21:10):
so easy to get caught up inhow ridiculous and hilarious they are, so
much so that it's just as easyto overlook some of the odd connections and
coincidences, just as I had whenI finally archived that old blog May eleventh,

(21:32):
nineteen eighty nine. Dear Ellen,You're in a tough spot and have
a difficult choice to make. Doyou risk closing the friendship of Karen or
do you risk your personal safety.I can't tell you what to do,
but I can tell you this,I wouldn't go to Missus's house for any

(21:53):
reason. Let me suggest a thirdoption. Why not just tell Karen the
truth? Why not just tell herthat you find it degrading to have to
pretend that you're not Jewish and thatyou're concerned about your personal safety. Reassure

(22:15):
Karen of your sincere friendship. Perhapsyou might discuss this with Karen's parents too,
Perhaps you might bring your mother alongwith you. I'm not saying this
is what you should do, butI think you should give serious consideration to
doing the most straightforward thing. Tellthem the truth. Yours, Mark,

(22:48):
May twenty first, nineteen eighty nine. Dear Mark, good news, the
baby shower problem is solved. Theshower was last night and we all had
a great time. Just after Iwrote you that last letter, my mother
called Karen's father and they had along talk. She told him the truth
about how she felt. It wasjust like what you said. Well,

(23:10):
Karen's father decided to move the babyshower to the Portland Hilton Hotel instead of
the estate. They don't allow pitbullys in the Hilton Hotel, you know.
Well, Karen's father had a bigfight with Karen's grandmother about it,
and then they argued politics. Ithink they are still arguing about Roosevelt,
and he's been dead for years now. Can you imagine Missus Ridd said Karen's

(23:34):
father's bad blood had poisoned his mind. You see, Karen's father is an
Episcopalian, just like Karen's grandmother,but his mother's mother was French and therefore
Catholic. Missus didn't want her daughterto marry him because of that, but
she went along only because they saidthey would alope if she didn't go along
with their marriage. Karen told meall this years ago, Missus Karen,

(24:00):
that if her mother was still alive, she would never have allowed Karen's father
to move the party. I'm sorryKaren's mother is dead, but I'm sure
glad the party was moved. Bythe way, did I already tell you
that Karen's mother died? I don'tthink I did. She died back in
February. It was very sad,but she had been sick for a long

(24:21):
time, so it wasn't a surprisewhen she died. Karen's father says the
Big Sea got her. Karen's grandmothersays the Big Sea stands for Communism.
She says communists killed Karen's mother byputting florid in her water. But I
don't believe it, do you,yours? Ellen? I started working on

(24:47):
a live reading of the Karen andEllen Letters a few months after I shut
down the blog. The letters hadbecome such a huge hit in Seattle,
and people were constantly asking for somesort of revival, and I figure it
a local stage reading was innocuous enough. I tried to figure out how to
produce an event without charging money forit or without making money off of it.

(25:08):
And while I probably could have gottenaway with both, it just didn't
feel right, especially with Mark andKaren seemingly upset with me. So I
decided to sell drink tickets. Unfortunately, there was no way to offset the
cost of the event with drink ticketsalone, so I created a VIP package.

(25:32):
It would include drink tickets, frontrow seats, and a copy of
the Karen and Ellen letters. Lookingback now, it's embarrassing how shortsighted that
plan. Was I sold enough tocover the cost of the venue. It
seemed harmless at the time. Ipaid the actors in cheap beer and wine.

(25:55):
I found Sarah Stapleton on Craigslist.Sarah Beth Pool, who played Ellen,
was a friend's sister. Jeff Powellwas one of my closest friends,
and it always struck me as veryMark, the original actor who played Rob,
was also found on craigslist. Icouldn't and still can't remember his name,
nor could I ever find his emailaddress again. So when we started

(26:18):
the podcast, my friend Matt steppedin. The live show sold out within
twenty four hours, and the nightwas a huge success. But it was
also a nail and a Coffin Mayfifth, nineteen eighty nine, Dear Mark

(26:44):
Well, Karen's father and grandmother hadanother terrible fight over at Karen's house last
night. They were shouting at eachother for almost an hour. I could
hear everything because I was in thebilliard room, which is right next to
the library where they were arguing.I was playing Monopoly with Karen and Rob.
Monopoly is Karen's favorite game, butonly if she wins, and she

(27:07):
always wins. My favorite game isfar cheesy. Well, back to my
story. I wrote down a lotof the stuff they were saying to each
other so I could take it homeand have my mother explain it to me.
The fight all started because doctor movedKaren's baby shower to the Hilton.
But I told you about that already. Well, things got really nasty.

(27:30):
Missus had kept saying, now youlisten to me, frenchie when she was
talking to Karen's father. Karen's fatherdidn't seem to like that. He called
Karen's grandmother goose stepping granny. Missussaid that Karen's father was a fellow traveler,
but she didn't say who he wastraveling. With Then he said that

(27:52):
she was a fifth columnist. Thenshe said that she had always known that
he was secretly taking orders from wrong. Then he said that he has always
known that she was secretly taking ordersfrom the Gestapo. She didn't seem to
like that. Then she said thatall his friends are papists, and then
he said that she was just apea brained religious bigot. Then she said

(28:18):
that if he wasn't a papist,then he wouldn't always be defending the red
horror of Babylon. Then he saidthat was ridiculous, and that the pope
wasn't a communist and that she knewit. Then she said that she knew
nothing of the kind, and thathe was defending the Catholic Church. Again,
then he said that he wasn't defendinganything and that she was just an

(28:40):
old redneck. Then she said thather neck wasn't red, but that his
was, and so was all therest of him. Then she kept calling
him an old bolshevik over and over. It was bad karma time all around.
Missus told him that he wouldn't besaying these things to her. Alice
that's Karen's mother was still alive.He said that was true, but that

(29:04):
he had been wanting to tell heroff for over thirty years. Can you
imagine? He said that she wasgoing to turn Karen into a bitter old
penny pinching skin flint like herself,and that he was going to put a
stop to it before it was toolate. Well, I think Karen's father
is sorry now for saying all thosenasty things to missus Wood. He's planning

(29:26):
a big dinner in her honor nextweek at his house to make up.
He says he has some big surprisesfor her. Won't that be nice?
Doctor says that I should tell Missusdid that I'm Jewish, but not until
the dinner. He says he wantsto see the expression on her face when
I tell her I'm Jewish. Won'tshe be surprised? Doctor says that I'm

(29:48):
going to sit right next to Karen'sgrandmother. I guess we were wrong about
her being anti Semitic. Sitting nextto her. On the other side,
he has a surprise guest, MonsieurRyan, one of his golfing buddies.
I've met Monsieur Ryan at Karen's housebefore, but he never seems to come
over when Karen's grandmother is visiting them. Finally they'll get to meet. Won't

(30:11):
that be nice? I know they'llget along together famously. They're about the
same age, and they're both leos. Monsieur Ryan has a wonderful sense of
humor, And besides, Karen's grandmotheris a widower and he's unmarried. Well,
I'm getting romantic and they haven't evenmet yet. I'm going to try
and play matchmaker at the dinner.Well, Karen's father has one more surprise

(30:36):
for Missus redacted. He's going togive Monsieur Ryan a check at the dinner
for fifty thousand dollars in the nameof the Good Family Trust for Caramelized Nuns
to buy food for war elephants inLebanon, which I think is a very
good cause. A reporter and photographerfrom The Oregonian will wait in the next
room to take pictures of doctor andMissus said giving the check to Monsieur.

(31:00):
Won't Karen's grandmother be thrilled. Sheloves attention and it's good karma time for
everybody. Well, Karen's father saysthat he'll be looking forward to this dinner
and that he's really looking forward toseeing Miss's reaction to his surprises. It's
going to be so nice seeing themmake up, and it will improve both.
They're Karma's. I told my motherall about this. When I got

(31:22):
back home and read her my notes, she had the strangest reaction. She
just started laughing and laughing, eventhough I didn't say anything funny. She
said that she would just love tobe a fly on the wall at that
dinner. Can you imagine what astrange thing to want to be. I'd
rather be a cat than a fly. I quite like cats, you know.

(31:45):
Well, Mother said it would beokay for me to tell Missus that
I'm Jewish at the dinner, aslong as it sat Karen's father's house and
he's there. She was laughing sohard that she spilled her tea in her
lap and dropped the teacup and brokeit. It was one of her her
favorite tea cups too, part ofa set which was a wedding present from
my uncle Joseph. That cup wasalmost two hundred years old, and Maide

(32:07):
and Mason, and yet she stillkept laughing. I don't get it,
do you? Yours? Ellen?May twenty seventh, nineteen eighty nine.
Dear mister Mark, I am Karen'slegal advisor. Karen has instructed me to
write to you to ask you toreturn Karen's Mermaid clock to Karen as soon

(32:28):
as possible. Karen has reason tobelieve that her clock may be extremely valuable
and Karen wants it back and closed. A page from the April sixteenth issue
of the Portland Oregonian, Karen hascircled an article entitled Christine's Auction Ne's forty
two million dollars. Karen would likeyou to note that the statue two Mermaids

(32:50):
at Neptune's Throne by Selini sold atthis auction for eight hundred and fifty thousand
dollars. Karen wants you to returnto Seleni mermaid clock to her within the
next days. If you are notable to return Karen's clock to Karen,
Karen is one to accept your checkfor eight hundred and fifty thousand dollars instead.
If Karen does not receive either herclock or your check within the next

(33:12):
ten days, Karen has instructed meto sue you in Portland Small Claims Court
for eight hundred and fifty thousand dollars. Karen hopes you will pay up.
Karen would prefer not to go tocourt. Karen's offer is only good for
ten days, so hurry. Sincerely, Rob, Legal Adviser to Karen,
May thirtieth, nineteen eighty nine.Dear Karen, as I already stated before,

(33:37):
I will not respond to letters fromyour legal advisor, Rob, who,
in my opinion, is practicing lawwithout a license. I do not
have the Mermaid clock, as youalready know, I gave away the Mermaid
clock as abandoned worthless property after youleft it, and after giving you written

(34:00):
notice of my intention to do so, notice to which you did not respond.
I was unable to read the newspaperarticle Rob sent me. The paper
fell apart as I tried to unfoldit. This was due, no doubt
to the honey that had been smearedinside. However, even without having been

(34:21):
able to read the article, letme just say that I do not doubt
that a Cellini Mermaid sold for eighthundred and fifty thousand dollars. But your
Mermaid clock was made entirely of plasticand was battery operated. Chillini has been

(34:42):
dead for four hundred years. Soalthough I freely admit that I am not
an art expert. I do knowthat your mermaid clock was not a genuine
chillini since Mark during the live reading, I got an email from Mark actually

(35:15):
during the show said something like,you're selling copies of these letters? Now,
what kind of person are you?I didn't have the heart nor gall
to correct him, because I realizedit didn't matter. My instinct had always

(35:37):
been not to make money off ofthese letters that I had but were not
mine. And while I never madea cent, I had assigned to them
a monetary value. And while onlyabout one hundred dollars ever exchanged hands,
I think it was less about theamount and more about the sense of propriety.
At the time, propriety seemed somewhatrich. Over time, it became

(36:02):
the philosophical question within this podcast,and eventually within most of my podcasts.
Who owns a story? When doesa story become someone's story? What are
our relationships to the stories we telland experience? How do stories change from

(36:25):
person to person and hand to hand, and who do those changes affect and
who's accountable. I've thought a lotabout this email from Mark, about Mark
as a person, about Mark asthe landlord in the Karen and Ellen letters,

(36:49):
in a sense I had become hispresent day Karen and perhaps simultaneously represented
something he didn't like in his previousbehavior with those girls. Of course,
none of that negates nor minimizes mybehavior, which was appalling. That final

(37:14):
email from Mark was the exact momentthat my Karen and Ellen hysteria ended.
I felt shitty. It was thefirst time I actually saw Karen, Ellen,
Mark, and even Rob as realpeople, maybe because they started off
as characters for me they had alwaysbeen characters to me. Or were they

(37:37):
clues or questions in some greater mystery? Were they the means to the end
that was the truth? And wouldthe end justify those means? My relationship
with these letters has always been fluid, and once again, time would change

(37:59):
things. Time would change everything.June second, nineteen eighty nine, Dear
Mark, Well, that big dinnerat Doctor's house last week didn't go as
well as we thought it would.Karen's grandmother wasn't as thrilled as we thought

(38:21):
she would be. To be perfectlyhonest, the dinner was really a disaster,
but you don't want to hear aboutall the awful details. Well,
Karen had another big fight with herfather. Karen says that she wants to
educate her baby at home the wayKaren, Rob and I were by Miss
Fletcher, Missus's traveling companion. Doctorsays that he now thinks that was a

(38:44):
big mistake and that we should havegone to school with other kids instead.
Anyway, Doctor says that he won'tallow Miss Fletcher to teach Karen's baby like
she taught Karen and me, andhe can do that because Miss Fletcher now
works for him now that Missus isdead. Karen is also mad at her
father for another reason. Last week, he told Interstate Bank not to cash

(39:07):
any check from Karen over one thousanddollars without his co signature. Karen is
curious about it, as you canimagine, he's treating her like a child.
Doctor says that he's doing this becauseKaren lost thirty thousand dollars a few
months ago investing in a winery inAlaska that turned out to be a scam.

(39:27):
But that was just a bad investmentthat could have happened to anyone.
Well. Anyway, Karen has runaway from with Rob again, although some
people say it's not really running awayfrom home. What Karen does when she
runs away from home is she packsher clothes up in suitcases and then moves
into the Tudor guest cottage behind Doctor'shouse. It really isn't easy living in

(39:50):
the guest house in doctor backyard.I know you have to cook all your
own meals and put your own dishesin the dishwasher yourself. It's like when
she lived in your little car.It's really just like living in the woods
or something. Yours, Ellen,June fourth, nineteen eighty nine. Dear
mister Mark, I'm Karen's legal advisor. Karen is sorry to hear that you've

(40:13):
given away her Selini Mermaid clock.Karen wants you to send your letters to
me, Rob legal advisor to Karen. Since you've given away karen Seleini clock,
Karen expects you to pay for it. Karen wants to be fair about
this. Karen knows that two mermaidsplus a Neptune's throne is worth more than
just one mermaid. So Karen hasbroken down the cost is below Neptune's throne

(40:37):
two hundred thousand dollars, one mermaidthree hundred thousand dollars, another mermaid three
hundred thousand dollars. Total eight hundredand fifty thousand dollars. So Karen feels
that a fair settlement would be foryou to send Karen a check for three
hundred thousand dollars. Karen's offer ofletting you off the hook for three hundred
thousand dollars is a savings to youof six hundred fifty from the eight to

(41:00):
fifty that she is entitled to get. If I were you, I would
take this deal. Because you don'ttake this deal, Karen will sue you
in Portland Small Claims Court for thewhole eight hundred and fifty thousand dollars.
Think it over. Karen is beingvery generous with you, but this offer
is good for a limited time andis void. We're prohibited by law.

(41:21):
Sincerely, Raw, Legal Adviser toKaren, June fourth, nineteen eighty nine.
Dear mister Mark, I am Karen'slegal advisor. Karen would like you
to send any letters to her tome, Rob, Legal Advisor to Karen.
As legal advisor to Karen, I'mrequired to inform you of your rights
at this time. Under the CarmenMiranda Decision one, you have the right

(41:45):
to remain silent. If you exercisethis right, you owe my wife Karen
eight hundred and fifty thousand dollars.Two. You have the right to an
attorney. If you cannot afford anattorney, you will owe my wife Karen
eight hundred and fifty thousand dollars.Three. Anything you say will be taken
down and may use its evidence againstyou, and then you will owe my
wife Karen eight hundred and fifty thousanddollars for sure unless I, Robert Legal

(42:09):
Adviser to Karen, receive a checkfrom you right away, and my wife
Karen will file a lawsuit against youin small claims court. The filing fee
in small claims court is much lowerthan in other courts, and my wife
Karen doesn't just throw money away,so you better pay up now. Sincerely,
Rob, Legal Adviser to Karen,June fifth, nineteen eighty nine.

(42:30):
Dear Mark, Rob tells me thathe sent you a letter yesterday demanding money
from you for the Mermaid clock.My Mermaid clock. I just want you
to know that I told Karen andRob that they are wrong about that clock.
I told them that the clock isnot a real Selini. Being an
artist myself, I can tell thedifference Selini made beautiful things. But the

(42:53):
things he made were out of solidgold and silver and marble, and sometimes
with jewels stuck in them. TheMermaid clock was just plastic. Well,
of course, what can you expectthese days? They just don't make things
as good as they used to,And to be perfectly honest with you,
I don't think that they ever didyours Ellen. The Karen and Ellen letters

(43:17):
started to feel gross to me.They became a reminder of how terrible we
can be when we're caught up ina frenzy. And once again they found
themselves in a box in a closet, quickly forgotten again for what seemed like
the last time. I moved onwith my life, and so did everyone

(43:39):
else. The blog readers found anew Internet sensation. Sarah Stapleton and I
parted ways, only occasionally liking oneanother's posts on Facebook. I'd run into
Sarah Beth at events in Seattle everycouple of months. I never heard from
nor saw the old Rob again,and Jeff and I returned to our weekly

(44:02):
happy hours. Life returned to normalcy, at least for a little while.
And then I got an email,an email I knew was trouble before I
even opened it. It was froman email address that was almost identical to

(44:24):
the one that I was using forthe Karen and Ellen letters Josh Hallmark in
nineteen ninety four, I received abound copy of the Karen l Letters.
You have mentioned repeatedly that your lettersare handwritten. The copy I have is
typed. That's just one of themany discrepancies between the letters that appeared on

(44:45):
your blog last year and the lettersI've had for close to twenty years.
I have some ideas there's a chancethat your whole blog is a fraud.
A noble attempt, but a fraudnone the less. But the more I
think about it, I think there'smore to it than that. I'd also
like to know why you took theblog. I read on Reddit that Karen
is suing you. I know that'snot true. I know the truth about

(45:05):
Karen and Rob and Mark, andI think you'd like to know too.
Email me July sixteenth, twenty thirteen. Hi, Sorry for the late response,
but as I'm sure you can imagine, I was a bit sketched out
by your email and the email addressit was sent from. I'd like to

(45:29):
make a few things clear, Firstof which is I am not being sued
by Karen or anyone else for thatmatter, and as far as I'm aware,
the blog is not a fraud.It is the actual letters that I
received, which are in fact handwritten. I'm curious to know what other discrepancies
there are between our versions of theletters besides their format. However, I
am a bit dubious of having anysort of candid conversation with you at this

(45:52):
point, considering the tone of youremail. I'd be more than happy to
sort through the various informations we have, but frankly not via email to some
anonymous person. Again, I wouldlove to get to the bottom of things,
but it won't be in response tomild threats and secrecy. Thanks Josh,

(46:14):
June tenth, nineteen eighty nine.Dear Ellen, I'd like to know
what happened at that big dinner atDoctor's house, the dinner at which Karen's
grandmother got to meet Monsignor Ryan.Don't worry, the details won't bother me.
Also, I'm not sure I understoodyour last letter. Do you mean
that you never went to school andKaren and Rob never went to school either.

(46:38):
If that's so, how did thethree of you get admitted to col
I don't mean this critically, butUCB rejects ninety percent of all applicants.
I've always assumed that UCB requires atleast a high school diploma for admission.
Yours, Mark, June tenth,nineteen eighty one. Dear Karen, I

(47:02):
want you to stop sending me theseridiculous letters about the Mermaid clock. If
I get any more letters about thisclock from you or Rob, I will
let your father know, or worse, I will snitch on you to Charlie
Worthington. I mean it too,very sincerely, Mark, June fifteenth,

(47:31):
nineteen eighty nine. Dear mister Marvin, I am Karen's legal advisor. Kieren
would like you to send any lettersto her to me. Karen is very
upset about your last letter. Karensays that she doesn't know anyone named Charles
Worthington, and besides, how didyou find out about it? Karen says

(47:52):
that you better not snitch to Charlieif there even is anybody by that name.
If you do, Karen is authorizedfor me to drop the full legal
night on you. I'll haeus corporateyou. I'll move your venue so far
away that you have to do somethingto get it back. Don't tell Charlie
Worthington that we've been writing to you, if there even is a Charlie Worthington.

(48:12):
Sincerely, raw legal advisor to care. I don't know why it never
occurred to me to look into CharlesWorthington until well into the production of the
original podcast. That's not his actualname, I've changed it, but I
was able to find him, and, strangely, and perhaps more than coincidentally,

(48:36):
in the seventies and eighties, hewas an attorney for UC Berkeley.
The further I looked, the moreI found that to most would seem coincidental
until you line it all up andtally all the connections. It strange the

(48:58):
role that Charlie Worthings has played inall of these letters and in the lives
of Karen and Rob. June fifteenth, nineteen eighty nine, Dear Mark,
Well, I told Karen that yousent your congratulations but not a gift.
Karen told me to tell you thatthat isn't good enough. Karen says that

(49:20):
she is willing to forgive you andto speak to you again, but only
if you do these four things.First, apologize, send her a really
nice baby gift and send her thethirty seven thousand, one hundred and fifty
two dollars and fourteen cents. Karensays, you owe her. I don't
know how Karen came up with thatfigure, but I'm sure she's right.

(49:42):
Karen is very good at math andis very practical. I'm not because I'm
an artist. Well, Rob isstill looking for a job. His great
uncle says Rob should join the coastGuard. That way, Rob wouldn't be
away from Karen for a long time, like if he was in the navy.
Well, Karen is very much againstthat idea. She's still mad at
the coast Guard. Did I evertell you about it? You see,

(50:06):
when I was just a little girl, about thirteen and Karen was twelve,
we used to call the coast Guardevery week at the Coastguard station in Astoria,
that's west of Portland. I've neverbeen to Astoria myself, but Karen's
grandmother says that she used to gothere all the time when she was a
little girl to visit friends of herparents. She says Astoria used to be
really nice. Now she doesn't knowanybody in Astoria and doesn't go there anymore.

(50:31):
Well, anyway, let me getback to my story. So we
used to call the Coastguard station atAstoria every week to give them tips on
how they could find Gilligan and hisfriends. Remember we were just kids then
and didn't realize it was just aTV show. I just wanted to do
something good, and Karen wanted thereward she figured she'd get. You see,

(50:52):
one of the castaways was a richmillionaire and his wife a movie star,
and the rest all on Gilligan's island. When when he was fifteen,
Rob used to pray for the rescueof Gilligan and his friends. Of course,
he doesn't do that anymore now.Rob is a mature adult and Karen
and I are mature adulteresses. Well, after a while, the Coastguard called

(51:15):
our parents and they yielded us.Karen has never forgiven the Coastguard for snitching
on us, and they never gaveher any reward either. Can you imagine
yours? Ellen? June seventeenth,nineteen eighty nine. Dear Karen, in

(51:37):
my last letter to you, Itold you that if you didn't stop this
Mermaid clock nonsense, I would tellyour father on you or snitch you out
to Charlie Worthington. I also toldyou in that same letter, as I

(52:00):
have told you before, that Iwill not respond to letters from your legal
advisor RAB. Today I received anotice from the Portland District Court that you
have filed a lawsuit against me inMoltnoma County Small Courts for over one million

(52:24):
dollars. If your ASATs lawyer Robknew anything about the law, he would
know that one million is well inexcess of the statutory limit for small claims
court judgments anywhere in the US.Also, there are irresolvable jurisdictional problems with

(52:53):
this lawsuit, but I know betterthan to try to expend play jurisdiction to
you or RAW. I have neverbeen to Oregon. I do not intend
to travel eight hundred miles to Portlandin order to defend myself against these preposterous

(53:21):
charges. So I have decided insteadto put an end to this absurd lawsuit
by taking the most expedient action.I am going to snitch on you to
Charlie Worthington. I called mister Worthington'soffice to day, but he had already

(53:49):
left through the weekend. As soonas he returns Monday, I will snitch
on you. Then. I amwriting to you because I don't want you
to think that I am doing thisbehind your back. Please remember I did

(54:12):
give you fair wark very since Junetwenty fourth, nineteen eighty nine. Dear
Mark, You know it always surprisesme how many stupid people there are in
this world. Now you take today'snewspaper for example, I haven't closed a

(54:34):
copy of this article. Well,they had this big trial in Georgia.
It took months and months and months, but in the end they found the
defendant, Congressman Swindle, guilty ofperjury. Now I figured that anyone with
half a brain would just know thata man named Swindle is a liar and
a crook, even if he isa Republican. I mean, how obvious

(54:57):
can you get? But it's likeKaren always says, I shouldn't expect that
everyone in the world is as smartas I am. Well, anyway,
that brings me to the reason I'mwriting you this letter. Karen and Rob
don't know that I'm writing this letterto young Please don't tell them, as
you already know. I think thattheir lawsuit against you is silly, that

(55:19):
clock isn't a real Selini and I'vetold them so. Seleni didn't make stuff
at a plastic And besides, itwasn't their clock, it was mine.
But anyway, back to my story, Charlie Worthington called Rob's folks and showed
them the letters you sent. Charlie. Then Rob's father yelled at both of
them, good, well, ifyou will just keep quiet, Charlie will

(55:42):
see to it that this lawsuit isdropped immediately, and he'll see to it
that they never sue you again.Just please don't tell the newspapers. We
just have to keep the good nameout of the newspapers because of you know
who. It's real important to themthat their family isn't mentioned in the newspapers.
You probably don't know it, butit costs Rob's family a lot of

(56:05):
money to hush up the Christmas TreeFarm accident last year and to make sure
that there wasn't any public investigation,and to pay off the owner of the
Christmas Tree Farm so he didn't sueRob. Did I ever tell you about
that accident? That was also toprotect you know who? Three years ago,
my uncle Henry's pickle factory burned down. Did I ever tell you about
it confidentially. It wasn't me whodid it, it was Rob. I

(56:30):
took the blame just to keep thename out of the papers then, because
of you know who. Even myuncle Henry doesn't know the truth about that
accident. He doesn't even know thatRob was there when it happened. I
took the blame then to protect youknow who. Well, anyway, please
just be a little patient. Charliewill get the suit dropped quietly if you'll

(56:50):
just go along. Please don't tellKaren or Rob that I sent you this
clutter yours Ellen. A few daysafter the first episode of the original podcast
aired, Jeff, who plays Mark, contacted me to ask why I hadn't
sent him all of the letters.I was confused by this because I had.

(57:15):
And that's when he showed me aletter I'd never seen before, a
letter that was not in my boundto copy, a letter from Ellen,
a letter regarding free firewood. Hetold me there were more, and when

(57:35):
he told me where to find them, I was shocked to see that there
were more, dozens more. Therewere letters about the firewood, about appliances,
about the fish. There were lettersthat date well after the letters that
I have in my bound collection.It was an exciting and confusing moment.

(58:00):
Why had these letters been held back? Why hadn't they made it into my
bound collection? Who else had theseletters and what exactly did their existence mean.

(58:23):
June twenty sixth, nineteen eighty nine. Dear mister Tanzen, I am
Karen's legal advisor. My wife Karenwould like you to send any letters to
her to me, Rob legal adviserto Karen. Yesterday, my wife Karen
and I had a meeting with CharlieWorthington in his office. As soon as
my wife Karen and I walked intoCharlie's office, my wife Karen and I

(58:45):
knew that you had snitched on us. We didn't think that you would really
do it. Copies of all myletters to you about our Seleni Mermaid clock
were all over his desk. Theonly way he could have gotten them is
if you sent them to me,so we know you snitched on them.
Well for a long time, Charliejust sat there staring at us, that
is me and my wife Karen.Then he dropped the legal net on us.

(59:08):
He said we couldn't win the suit, and besides, it might get
in the newspapers. Embarrassed, youknow who. We can't do that.
So it looks like you wiggled throughthe jurisdiction loophole once again. So my
wife Karen says, you win.My wife Karen says it isn't fair.
But what can we do now?So that's the end of that. Now.

(59:28):
I want to say something just formyself and not for my client and
wife Karen. Where do you getthe right to tell me what I can
and can't pray for? If Iwant to pray for a million dollars and
I do, that's my right.This is a free in God fearing country.
Sincerely, Rob, Legal adviser toKaren. Hello, Hello, hello

(01:00:10):
Josh. Yes, what's going on? You're recording? Right? Yeah?
Why Rob? Huh? I foundRob? What shut the fuck up?
Ninety five percent? But here's thething. He's in his sixties? What?

(01:00:30):
Yeah? And there's more. Julythird, nineteen eighty nine. Dear
Bonny, I guess you would liketo know something about Karen and Ellen's background.
Karen, Karen's husband, and Ellenall come from Portland, Oregon.

(01:00:54):
Karen and Ellen went to a communitycollege in Oregon for two years before supposedly
transferring to Berkeley. They claim tohave completed one year at UCB, although
I don't know whether they completed itwith passing grades or not, or if
they went at all. Of course, and this may just be a coincidence.

(01:01:15):
C W recently represented UCB after abipolar professor was involved in a fatal
traffic accident on campus. As Ellensays, there may be nothing to all
this, but on the other hand, there may not. I don't know

(01:01:36):
much about Karen's husband. I believehe is a Communist dogmatist from the way
he talks, not that he wouldknow what that means. All three of
them are rich or come from wealthyfamilies. It is obvious to me that
they were accustomed to getting whatever theywanted, regardless of cost or reason.

(01:02:00):
Karen wants to be a school teacher. Ellen was studying interior design, but
has recently informed me that she ischanging her major and now wants to be
a school teacher, just like Karen. Karen's husband wants to be a lawyer
and is planning to go to theTough University Law school in Boston. The

(01:02:24):
Karen letters may seem a bit choppyor incomplete, but you must remember that,
in addition to these letters, wehave had face to face talks and
phone calls. Karen has attempted toget paid for things that she writes about
by occasionally just deducting them from thecost of her rent. A phone call
from me with a threat gets herto cough up these amounts quickly. At

(01:02:51):
this time, these letters have onlycust me the price of postage. I
would not have allowed this to continuefor so long if this nonsense was actually
costing me any real money. It'sjust been a bit of fun for me
waiting for her next demand and wonderingwhat it will be up until now.

(01:03:13):
That is the Caldwells referred to inthe early letters our brother and sister.
They co rent a house on thesame lot as Karen's house. The two
houses have separate gas meters, butonly one electric meter, which accounts for
Karen's letters regarding splitting the electric bill. The Caldwell's are very pleasant and normal

(01:03:36):
people. Kathleen is a physician,Darren is a graduate student. Hal really
did live in a chicken coop whereKaren's house now stands. He was a
strange, but friendly odd ball.He was also a packrat. He went

(01:03:57):
out and collected stuff and brought ithome. What he couldn't get into the
coup he put into the yard whenhe left. A hauling company took an
estimated six thousand pounds of hals junkedthe dump at a cost of over five
hundred dollars in dump and hauling fees. Only one other person lived in Karen's

(01:04:18):
house, a woman named Annette,who was as nutting as a fruitcake.
I called Anette the suicidal piano lady. All her rooms were full of pianos.
She had asleep on the living roomcouch because the two bedrooms had no

(01:04:39):
room for a bed. Even stranger, Annette used to call me to discuss
her suicide plans and botched attempts.What sort of person calls the landlord to
discuss their suicide plans. I neverdiscussed these matters with her. I just

(01:05:01):
told her to get professional help.You see, Ellen hender Guru are right.
There may be bad spirits at thishouse, certainly based upon its previous
rental history. Karen and Ellen knownothing about Annette. I consider myself a

(01:05:23):
fairly generous landlord. I give mytenants garden tools, vacuum cleaners, and
interest on security deposits. Things mostlandlords do not pay for I rarely,
if ever, raise rent while atenant lives in a place, and nobody
ever has to ask twice to getsomething fixed. My rents are a little

(01:05:45):
below market too, so I reallyhave nothing to feel guilty about, although
Karen and Ellen at first did makeme feel guilty with comments like you shouldn't
feel too guilty over the death ofEllen's guru. Now I am over any
feelings of guilt. Karen's descriptions ofthe neighborhood are accurate. The Caldwells do

(01:06:12):
have two cats, although I doubtthat these cats used up a lot of
electricity. There is an icy carwash on the corner, and there are
plumbing and electrical supplies towards one blockaway. When Karen first saw the house,
she came alone. I did notmeet Ellen until after Karen had moved
in and had been living there fortwo months. In fact, I had

(01:06:35):
no idea there would be a secondoccupant prior to meeting Allan. Karen was
one her best behavior when I sawher, no crazy talk, no demands.
Furthermore, I knew her father wasa doctor, and he had already
co signed the lease prior to hermoving in. Karen is very pretty,

(01:06:58):
long flowing blonde hair, blue eyes, perfect complexion, and the good figure
Ellen is not so brit. Icare to make up my mind if they
are stupid, crazy or boof.As you requested, I've ceased all communication

(01:07:18):
with the girls and their illegal representativeRoub. I've included some additional items that
will likely attest to their character.It is clear to me that mister Worthington
would prefer to keep the antics ofKaren and Rob out of the press and

(01:07:38):
presumably any court dockets, so Iam hopeful this will all be behind us
soon. Additionally, I've enclosed severalOakland Tribune articles covering a nearby explosion in
April. Am I paranoid for thinkingthis might be the work of them?

(01:08:03):
Mark? Yeah? And there's moreI think I found Ellen too. What
cryptic words meander? Now? Thereis a song beneath the song day learn

(01:08:30):
soon discern its truely be interesting detachment, restless song, less, sincere,
desired, despair, overlapping baldy.And it's not a loss loss. No,

(01:09:00):
it's not a love song. It'snot a love. It's not a
love. It's not a next song. It's not a love, it's not
loves, not a love song,a mother love song. And in Missing
Recurring dreams, a minor chords reader, time, muted chimes by the big

(01:09:31):
and the ulsterized conviction, steadying pushfor routine, some swell, high nose,
spell into me in a smu words, small love songs story, lot

(01:09:57):
of her song. It's fine,it's so, it's excite and sunny songs,
says one song. It's not sunsong, it's to songs, song

(01:11:14):
song songs, love song to songto song, never mean