September 19, 2023 • 50 mins
WARNING: This contains mild general spoilers about the scope of the Karen & Ellen Letters story. We talk around how the investigation ends, without giving away exact or detailed information.
Charlie Worroll (Crimelines; Crimelines and Consequences) has history with The Karen & Ellen Letters going back to its days as a blog (c. 2012). Years later, we met through podcasting. In the inaugural Karen & Ellen Conversations, we discuss how the letters have changed and how we have changed over time, propriety in storytelling, ethics in found and historical documents, social blunders, being stupid teenagers, and how Karen & Ellen is so much more than just letters.
Tidbits: Charlie embarrasses herself in a train car in Seattle. Why Josh stopped using video for the original After Shows.
This is a Studio BOTH/AND production: www.truecrimebullshit.com / www.bothand.fyi
For an ad-free experience: www.patreon.com/studiobothand
Charlie Worroll (Crimelines; Crimelines and Consequences) has history with The Karen & Ellen Letters going back to its days as a blog (c. 2012). Years later, we met through podcasting. In the inaugural Karen & Ellen Conversations, we discuss how the letters have changed and how we have changed over time, propriety in storytelling, ethics in found and historical documents, social blunders, being stupid teenagers, and how Karen & Ellen is so much more than just letters.
Tidbits: Charlie embarrasses herself in a train car in Seattle. Why Josh stopped using video for the original After Shows.
This is a Studio BOTH/AND production: www.truecrimebullshit.com / www.bothand.fyi
For an ad-free experience: www.patreon.com/studiobothand
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:09):
This is a studio both and production. Hey everyone, this is Josh Hallmark,
the host of The Karen and EllenLetters, and we are reviving and
(00:32):
reformatting I guess the old after shows. For those of you new to the
show and its original run, eachepisode was followed by what was often a
drunken rehashing of the episode's events.So we're going to do that, but
I think have maybe some more philosophical, psychological, ethical conversations. And we're
(00:53):
doing it every two episodes. AndI told Charlie I was not going to
drink, but I did decide toport myself a glass of breakfast Rose for
this perfect I have a cup ofcoffee. So I am here with Charlie
Warrell, host of Crime Lines andCrime Lines and Consequences. And you are
(01:15):
the first guest of the After Showfor a very specific reason, which is
you've been on this journey for longerthan this was a podcast. So tell
me about your introduction to The Karenand Ellen Letters. Alway, So I
was many years ago on a i'llcall it a parenting forum, but it
(01:37):
was really more like a forum ofparents who didn't necessarily identify with the normal
parents who go on parenting forums andwant to talk and brag about their kids.
So it's a little bit more ofa like snarky parenting board. So
we would find posts online from reallyinsufferable parents and also blogs, and so
(02:00):
someone had found the Karen and Ellenletters and are they were like, you
guys have to read these, andI would. So I was an avid
reader of this blog of this guy. I didn't know at the time.
And I have to say, itwas a long time ago. When did
you have the blog? I wantto say two ten. I would say
(02:23):
that sounds about right because my olderkids were a little at the time,
and I mean they're adults now,and I think my daughter was like five.
She would have been about five atthe time. So now let's say
twenty twelve, because I think itwas right around the time I met my
partner Andrew, And that's okay,twelve years ago. Yeah. I was
(02:44):
on that board for many, manyyears until Facebook kind of slowly took over
the forum world and people started shiftingto social media versus forums more than they
do now. So you were readingthe blog and then cut to I guess
five or six years later, thepodcast shows up. So that's a funny
(03:07):
story. Yeah. I read theblog, and then I got into listening
to podcasts and I saw maybe evenin a podcast group, someone posted,
Hey, there's this funny new podcast. It's called the Karen and Ellen Letters.
And what I immediately thought was thatsomeone ripped off an old blog and
took it and turned it into apodcast. I was like, wait,
(03:30):
these can't be the same letters.Wait, I gotta listen to this.
And as soon as I hit play, the first thing you say is how
you got the letters and how theywere a blog, and I was like,
oh, it's the same guy,all right. I don't have to
like yell at anybody on the internettoday. And now we've been friends for
going on six years. Yeah,and now we're friends, which I think.
(03:51):
It's just so funny to think aboutwhere you were when you got the
letters versus where I was, becauseit was, you know, shortly after
Katrina, I was pregnant with mydaughter, and my cousin and her kids
came to live with us. Right, So I have three kids and another
on the way, and my oldestat this point is six years old,
(04:14):
so I have like, you know, six four almost two, I'm pregnant,
my cousin comes with her four children, and we live in a house
that's about eleven hundred and fifty squarefeet. It was, it was,
it was, it was an interestingtime. So I kind of am picturing
you at your now. I mean, I've celebrated your birthday with you now
and thinking of you at your birthday. It's just it's interesting to see where
(04:38):
our lives were at that time andall the things that had to be put
into place for you know, usto be friends now. Yeah, it's
funny. I've been thinking a lotabout, you know, the Karen and
Ellen Letters as a timeline for thepeople who have like participated in it,
and I think that's the beauty ofdoing this in cycles. You know,
(04:59):
a lot of people asked why Itook it down and republishing it, and
I think because that has been consistentwith how I have consumed the Karen and
Ellen Letters. Is like you readthem for three weeks and you laugh and
laugh and laugh, and then youkind of like put them away for a
couple of years, and then theyfind their way back into your hands again.
And so as I've been going backand re narrating the show, it's
(05:20):
really fascinating to look at, likeall a different views of my life every
time the letters are resuscitated. Soyeah, it's interesting to hear your story
about where you were then, orlike talking to Sarah Stapleton who plays Karen,
and when I got the letters,she was in Hawaii, kind of
like feeling a little lost at sea, wanting a child, not knowing,
(05:43):
you know, how that journey wasgoing to happen for her, And now
she has a child, and soI just think it's really lovely because they
do have this cult following and resurfaceevery few years to go back and say
where were we all at this iterationof the letters. So I guess it's
different in these after shows as we'regoing to have to talk around how it
(06:04):
ends. You know, I knowso much. I know so much.
It's interesting to re listen and alsoto get the narration is you're framing is
a little different. The letters arethe same, obviously, and you're presenting
him in chronological order. But Ifeel on this listening and maybe it was
(06:24):
in the earlier ones and it justwasn't what was resonating with me, but
it feels more like we're on yourjourney as much as we are on the
letters progression. As you got theletters, started wondering, Okay, are
these real? What happened? Arethese really two teenage girls? Does Mark
(06:45):
even exist? And kind of followingthat thread a little bit more so,
I actually really enjoyed that on theeven though I know how it ends.
You know, everyone loves a goodmystery that unfolds, so it's still good
on re listening. Yeah, it'sfunny because I think, you know,
we're taught as reporters or journalists orwhatever we want to call ourselves these days,
like never insert yourself into the story, right, And so I guess
(07:09):
I struggle with that because definitely thenarrative this time is not as much about
me, but I play a biggerrole in it. But also like the
story is as much about these lettersas it is about how they've affected me,
and I guess, and then incontrast, how I've affected the story
of the letters, which is aweird thing to find yourself in a position
(07:30):
of power and someone else's narrative.So yeah, I thought that was important.
I think it's also important to talkabout what these letters did for everyone
who has consumed them over the years, because it's a story of initially two
bimbos, and then at the end, you know, maybe it's about two
(07:53):
women who were did wrong and didn'thave control over their own narrative and were
painted quite singularly by some one.Not to give too much away, but
I may have to edit that out. I think it's interesting how many people
are going to find the letters thistime through hate to even mention him in
(08:13):
this context, but Israel Keys.How many people are listeners of that podcast
are going to be like, oh, Josh has this other podcast, let
me go listen, and they're goingto know it through your investigative lens,
because that's how they know you.And I think that's really interesting. I'm
interested to see the discourse around theletters versus back in the roomies days,
(08:37):
where you know, we had agroup on Facebook and it was just a
little bit I think, I honestlythink it's going to be a little bit
more analytical a lot of what peopleare thinking about the letters and what they're
wondering about Oakland in the nineteen eighties, whereas in the roomy days we were
(09:00):
just like whatever, you know,drunken after shows. And although I will
say one of those after shows hadone of the best insights on Mark that
I have ever heard, And itwas one of your friends who I don't
even know, and he said,I just picture Mark living in the Bay
Area in the nineteen eighties. He'sa gay man who has lost a lot
(09:24):
of friends to the AIDS epidemic.And how much of that kind of colors
how he's dealing with these entitled girlswho apparently come from money if they can
afford five hundred dollars gurus, howhe's interacting with that with his life experience.
And I thought, I don't knowif Jeff ever had even that idea
in his head when he was voicingit, but it was an interesting insight
(09:48):
into the possibilities of the backstory ofa character. Yeah, that was Jason
Leroy, who was actually just hearingthe Berkshires a couple of weeks ago.
And it's funny because it's not somethingI had ever thought about, which is
ironic considering, you know, Imoved to San Francisco at the tail end
of that, and you know,you talk a lot about as a gay
(10:09):
man in the Bay Area, wherelike you didn't meet a lot of men
between the ages of forty and fiftybecause many of them had passed, and
so I thought, I agree,that's one of the best insights into at
least mark Psyche that I've heard whiledoing the show or reading these letters.
And then back to your point aboutbroadening the audience, it's strange to go
(10:31):
back and think, you know,there were five hundred people listening to the
podcast and its initial run, whichwas actually fewer than the number of people
who were reading the blog. Soit will be interesting to see new people
find the show, and presumably alot more new people find the show.
And yeah, this was my firstforay into like an investigation, which is
(10:54):
funny to go back and listen toit because I'm quite green and don't know
what the fuck I'm doing. Ithink also, you know, there were
a lot of things I wasn't challengingabout myself that first go around, where
now, you know, having hada crash course in investigative ethics and research
and viewing the whole story through alens of humanity, it's weird, which
(11:20):
is I guess my first question foryou, knowing what you know now are
the letters? Do they still havethe same comedy to them? Oh?
I don't, I'll say, knowingwhat I know Ellen's do Karen's are a
little different, knowing what's coming intoher life in the future. It just,
(11:45):
you know, I feel more it'sa young woman trying to figure out
her path, and Ellen, Ifeel, remained a bit of a more
elusive character even toward even in thebig picture, and a little more like
one dimensional, whereas there's a lotmore about Karen, you know, get
people excited about what's to come.There's a lot more coming, the many
(12:09):
faces of Karen, the many phasesof Karen. I mean, you don't
know Karen till you know. Aloha, Rob, like you have to,
you have to, you have tobe on this journey. Yeah, it's
weird. I have a hard time. I think also, like I've read
and recorded and listened to these lettersso many times that they basically they're no
(12:33):
longer even words. It's just likebackground noise for me. So it's weird
going back now and reading them,I guess for the first time through the
lens of the truth, because Ithink even in its last iteration, we
were looking at them with like investigativevalue, like what could this mean and
where could it lead us? Andnow like we're at the end of the
(12:54):
road. We've seen the whole storyin all its different lenses, or most
of its lenses, and now it'sit's looking at like what was actually happening
here? And so I think thereare moments of comedy, there are moments
of just like frustration, and thenthere are moments of severe empathy, which
(13:16):
is funny because you go back tothe first time we read these and we
were just like laughing at them withoutany thought to what the story actually was.
Right well, and I think forthose who are also re listening this
time, there's a certain amount ofnostalgia. Like as soon as they said
there was a smell behind the stove, I was like, oh wait,
wait, here we go, Herewe go. And you know, they
(13:37):
mentioned the avocado tree, and I'mlaughing at jokes we made a few years
ago about that there's a clock that'sgoing to come up. There are certain
things that will you know, Istill say it could have happened to anyone,
Like on a regular basis. Isay it to my children. I'm
like, coulda happen to anyone?Whenever they do something absolutely ridiculous. It's
(14:00):
just it's funny how these things aregoing to come up. And for me
at this point, being that youknow, I read them on the blog,
which is honestly nothing like the podcastreally, you know, because the
people you have voicing is just likeso perfectly cast, especially you know,
Mark, I love I love howMark is presented just through inflection and a
(14:22):
lot of sighing and things like that. But I think for people who have
listened before, they're going to getthat nostalgia. And I think for people
who are listening for the first time, they're going to come in on an
inside joke that you've had with howmany groups of friends at this point?
How many cities? Yeah, likefive or six. These are avocados and
(14:43):
clocks and gurus. These are allinside jokes you've had with like every group
of friends you've had, and nowyou're bringing kind of your true crime bullshit
friends into it too, And Ithink that's it's kind of it's an interesting
journey. Yeah, it's funny evenyou know, I'm in the Berkshire's now
and the Karen and Ellen letters havenot made their way here, and so
(15:05):
it's fun watching my friends here experiencethese and you're like it's funny. Yeah,
I'm like, oh, I'm openinga door to my history for you,
which it's fun and it even youknow, the true crime bullshit listeners
or the pack listeners who are followingalong and I get to watch them experience
(15:26):
these and not know what's coming.And it's delightful because I think for us,
you know, the big twist oflike the truth to these letters was
so organic and authentic, and wegot to experience that together and we all
(15:46):
kind of like have this whiplash oflike challenging what we had just endured or
been through. We're both so it'llbe fun. And obviously anyone listening to
this now has like a little leadinto like not everything is as it seems,
but I think it'll be very rewarding, especially where the culture is now
(16:07):
versus five years ago, versus tenyears ago versus fifteen years ago. It's
odd to be presented with a characterto voice act. But all you know
is, I'm casting you as theexasperated Bay Area landlord. I'm casting you
as a flighty rich girl who movesthere, who likes art. Like I
(16:30):
mean, it's not like they havea whole lot to work with, but
big picture, I feel like thevoice has nailed it. Like that's exactly
what those people have sounded like.In my opinion, it's funny because Jeff
Powell, who plays Mark, andI were good friends for years before he
took on this role because we didthis live show and I needed actors,
and so I only ever listen toMark as Jeff my friend and not Jeff
(16:56):
an actor, right, and nowgoing back with some space, I'm like,
my god, he's brilliant at this, so good he's acting as ass
Off and again like no one knewhow this was going to end. But
there there's nuance to all of theirperformances. Well there is because he writes
to his uncle Albert, and youget Jeff is laughing as he's doing that,
(17:21):
because that one is we're gonna get. But then the other way,
it's just it's hard to do thatwith the voice only, and he did
it brilliantly, and then just thevoices, so it's the over the top
voice that is like, what iswhat is needed for that? And it's
just I think it's just fascinating thatthey nailed these characters when they didn't actually
(17:45):
know who they were as real people. And I'm sure they don't really sound
like that, but that's definitely whatI would cast them to sound like,
Yeah, I mean, I youknow, I know what two of them
sound like. I guess away thatwe have found at least two of these
people out in the wild the wild, and I would say it is close
(18:10):
and it's not even like it's justtwo different people. So I guess with
that. Talking about, you know, these two episodes, they have two
of my favorite letters, which arethe car Wash and Roger Rabbit, which
are still hilarious to me. Thecar Wash I could listen to that letter
(18:33):
just on a loop all day everyday. What were the standouts for you
in these two episodes. I'm I'mall about the Guru and just the well,
I can't get my budget guru becausehe is he might be dead,
but the other guy's going in checkon him. So now he's out of
town. But now we can geta spirit box instead, just you know,
(18:55):
And I would never ask you topay for all of it. So
let's go have these like I mean, it's just like so, but I
have to say, there's a guystaring at me as I wash my fish.
That is just so classic and that'siconic. Yeah, it was in
the backyard washing my fish and thisguy's just staring at me. But I
mean, again going back to thenostalgia jurisdiction, that was like the word
(19:19):
we. That was one of thejokes with the on the Facebook roomies group,
where you know, it's like takea shot every time they say jurisdiction,
and it's just it's very funny.So it's like the nostalgia part made
me laugh about the jurisdiction still thisday, because jurisdiction comes up a lot,
yeah, our in our current podcast, Yeah, particularly in true crime
(19:41):
bullshit, And anytime I say it, like I chuckle, or if Kaz
is around, she'll like start laughingor look at me, or someone will
whisper drink. I think the podcastamplified its presence in my life because there
were more people to have these insidejokes, right yeah, and people who
(20:02):
overlap in weird ways into your life. I mean, if you're sitting there
discussing with your research or something aboutjurisdiction, which like you said, comes
up a lot when someone is purposelyavoiding jurisdiction, and then just for them
to pop into your head and youknow, the Berkeley Rent control and it's
(20:22):
just so funny. So I wantto talk about now like the journey of
the show, because it's weird.I kind of have this opportunity to go
back and like right wrongs or fixthings or change things. And I think
about season two, which is attimes a wild departure from season one.
It's yeah, definitely, it becomesnarratively much more complex, and also my
(20:45):
style changed a lot. I wasvery depressed. I was watching a lot
of twin Peaks, and I thinkthat resonates in the production. Wow,
I that actually makes a lot ofsense. She just put some pieces together
for me because it was a sharpdeparture from the format, and it was
(21:06):
bringing in like side characters that itwas. It was definitely different. Well,
I think it was like, youknow, we did the Letters and
that was season one for the mostpart, and then season two was like
the same story, but I knewjourney, and so to me it felt
like it had to be it couldn'tbe the same, just right, logistically,
(21:29):
it couldn't be the same. Andtotally it felt like, Okay,
we're involving other people, we're findingout new things, We're going on these
investigative pads, and much like intrue crime bullshit, like sometimes there are
dead ends, and I think that'sthe fun of season two. I think
it alienated a lot of people.It was funny watching the downloads. I
(21:51):
think we lost like thirty percent ofthe audience going into season two. But
as I've been going back and editing, I'm like, I'm really proud of
season two, Like it's range,but I love it. I'm like,
really gonna offend people here, butI think not everyone who listened to season
one was like smart enough to followseason two, if you know what I
mean, Like, nah, Idon't want to say smart can tell.
(22:12):
I mean like a sophisticated listener,like are you reading beach reads or you're
reading literature? And I'm not goingto say it was literature, but it
was like, if you think ofseason one kind of as a beach read,
you can passively listen season two.You had to be a more engaged
listener because there are more characters,there's more paths. But honestly, some
(22:33):
of the I mean it had veryold person on Facebook vibes with all of
that, and I love that.So I mean, I loved season two,
but I also loved your Kelly Cochraneseason so much, and everyone else
You're like everyone skipped out. I'mlike, why it was so good?
Well, people are finding it now. I think it just a context is
everything, because in the context oflike Keys, everyone was like I don't
(22:55):
want this, but you know nowthat it has its own Yeah, it's
a fascinating season. There's this bookI don't know. It's called House of
Leaves by Mark Daniel Luski. Haveyou heard of this? Yeah? I
literally have it on my shelf andhave not touched it. I like in
Season two to that book because itis a very complex read and that it's
like a story within a story,sometimes within a story. I think a
(23:18):
third of the book is in footnoteand it's just kind of you have to
really pay attention. You have toremember where you've been, have a sense
of where you're going, and beable to like manage these different narrative styles.
And I think Season two is alot like that, which is also
what makes it fun is you're disoriented. Yeah. Yeah, I liked season
(23:42):
two. It was very different thanseason one, and I think maybe that's
just and like you've said, withyou know, putting Kelly Cochrane in the
middle of Israel, Keys, sometimespeople you know they're coming to your podcast
for a certain tone, a certainfeel, and I are not getting that.
Then they're like, oh, thisdoesn't this doesn't feel right. But
(24:03):
I mean, I like you said, though, like season two couldn't be
the same as season one because youread the letters and now we're kind of
bringing in a different aspect. SoI guess, looking at the whole journey,
do you have any regrets or hesitationsor pauses for how you have consumed
(24:25):
these up until the ending of NoNo, Because I think it was it
was the journey because when I listenedwhen I read them the first time,
when I listened to the podcast,I didn't know where it was going.
I didn't know if they were real. I didn't know if like like in
my head, Mark had like photocopiedall these letters because it was going to
(24:51):
be part of illegal action as he'strying to evict these two teenagers. Like
that's where I thought it was going, And so I don't think I really
necessarily can assumed it. I mean, I'm glad I didn't know where it
was going. I think I enjoyedit more that way. I think if
I knew, you know, whetherthey were real or not, what they
were copied for why this Kinko's personthought, this is ridiculous. I'm going
(25:12):
to grab some of these. Likeif I knew all of that at the
beginning, I don't think I'd enjoythem as much. So I'm glad I
didn't know. Yeah, the same, And I think now the question I
find myself asking is can someone beboth a hero and a bimbo? Then
(25:33):
two things be true at the sametime, which obviously, I mean the
name of my company is both andexactly exactly I think. And it's funny
because they are dumb letters and dumbdemands and ridiculous and these girls say and
do very stupid things, and it'slike an honesty check to be like,
oh, I can still value youand value your journey and have empathy for
(25:57):
you and like laugh at the stupidsaying yeah, especially the stupid things you
say and do at like eighteen ornineteen, So to some degree, we
can kind of look back at whenwe were starting out. Did we know
what our landlord was supposed to doand what we're supposed to do? Did
we know you know how to geta phone installed into another bedroom? And
(26:17):
I mean there this is like anextreme version of that, but to some
degree we can kind of laugh atthe missteps we made or the assumptions we
made when we were starting out.I mean, we didn't. One of
the things that always struck me aswhen we're listening to them the first time
was why are they not like talkingto their families and being hey, Dad,
(26:38):
I'm confused about blah blah blah,rather than just immediately writing to Mark.
But then you get to the letterwhere Ellen does talk to her grandmother
who lives in Death Valley, andshe's like, I don't know why she's
not giving you an air conditioner youshould ask, or wanting the wood because
he gives firewood to his other tenantwho has a fireplace. Those those things,
(27:00):
it's like they are talking to peopleand they're just either getting bad advice
or they're like confusing it in theirown heads. But also, I mean,
I assume they go to UC Berkeley. This is not a great endorsement
for the college. I don't knowwhat their admission rates are like, but
yeah, it's a little rough forfor UC Berkeley. There. I think
(27:23):
that's you know, that's the onething we all struggled with as we were
investigating this is like, there areno way, regardless of how wealthy these
girls are, they got into UCBerkeley, And I think that's you know,
there are three things that come upor came up throughout the letters that
made me question their validity. Thatwas one of them. The other one
(27:48):
we're going to get to around Christmastime of eighty nine, I think,
and then something involving pickles, Andyou know, I think those are the
moments where you're like, Okay,this can't be real, and then that
gets us into like fiction versus nonfiction, and sometimes there's a very muddy
(28:11):
line between the two. I dothink it's interesting that the letters do have
these weird moments that haven't come upyet, but they are things you can
check. You can fact check.A lot of it is do you know
if this landlord wouldn't give these girlsan air conditioner? There's no way to
fact check that. But there areother things that get mentioned that come up
(28:34):
that are that are moments in historythat are very local moments, very localized.
But then you can then take thatmoment and fact check it and say,
wait, this really this part happened, so what so somewhere along the
line, either someone was really goodabout getting really local local news into these
letters or there is some validity tothem, and that line is a little
(28:59):
fuzzy some times. So what areyour thoughts on like propriety over a story?
And I, you know, likewe are in true crime, and
that's I think an ethical question thatyou know, I live with every single
time I press publish. Exactly Ithink here it's just as complicated, you
(29:19):
know, again without going into howthis all ends, But what are your
thoughts on, like who does thisstory belong to? Who gets to have
ownership over this? Who gets totell this story? I think this one
is so different than a lot ofwhat we cover in true crime because in
true crime, we we're not usuallyusing somebody's private correspondence that they never meant
(29:42):
to be public. If that iswhat this is, right, Like if
I write a letter to my landlord, I don't expect it to one day
show up on some guy's blog.You know, you have an expectation of
privacy there. So if we gowith the Okay, these letters are real,
these are real people. Yeah,to some degree, it's like how
how much of an ownership do Ihave over these letters to tell the story?
(30:07):
But I also think there's a littlebit of like a time, their
time has passed that we're not talkingabout people and where they're living today.
We're not giving out identifying information aboutthem. You've changed the name. Like,
there's certain things in there where Ithink you can tell a story using
basically, they're found historical documents fromthe nineteen eighties. As as much as
(30:30):
it pains us, the nineteen eightiesis history, I mean, it's I
have it's thirty five christ I havea child who's twenty four years old,
and he was born in nineteen ninetynine, so we're talking more than we're
talking like ten years before that.So what we're talking about really is kind
(30:55):
of found historical documents. As ridiculousas that sounds to apply that to this
letter, to these letters, Imean, it's like if I found my
grandmother's journal and I decided to publishit. I don't feel like that's necessarily
like wrong or it's a story thatdoesn't exist out it's not. I feel
like it's it's found historical documents,even if the nineteen eighties we want to
(31:18):
think was sooner or more recent thanit was. Yeah, it's funny,
I because you know, Obviously Imade a choice to do the show and
continue the show and now revive theshow, and it's still kind of murky
to me. I think there's acase for the ends justifying the means.
But again, that's very easy forme to make that call because my stakes
(31:40):
and this are quite low. Soyeah, I don't know. I guess
that's the one thing that hasn't changedthis time around. Is I still kind
of question who gets propriety over thisand at what point do personal letters,
if that's what they are, becomepublic discourse, right? I think that
(32:02):
I I don't think it's a storythat's not worth telling. And it is
interesting because now that you know thewhole picture, there is a bigger story
to tell, whereas maybe if itwas earlier on and you're not just sharing
them with friends, but you're puttingthem out there for everybody, and it's
just like laughing at it. Imean maybe that that's where I'd feel a
(32:27):
little more murky. This I don'tfeel is quite as murky. Yeah,
And I guess in some senses,like if I'm going to give myself a
pass, like sometimes I'm the onewho looks bad in this narrative, you
know, I was a little babyinvestigator and didn't know what I was doing
and was sometimes careless, and like, I will not shy away from that
in this narrative, and it gotyou ready to, you know, do
(32:53):
more investigative things that are you know, bigger, with much higher stakes,
forever everybody involved. So I thinkit's an interesting progression from I wonder if
Mark is real to what you're doingtoday with your work. So yes,
that's an interesting kind of that.The fact that they're even connected, these
(33:16):
letters are connected to what you're doingnow is kind of wild, but it's
mostly the investigation. I also thinkwhat's fascinating is because you don't know,
as a new listener whether these arereal or not, you have to have
the conversation with yourself of how amI consuming this? Am I consuming this
as fiction or nonfiction? Which begsthe question why should there be a difference,
(33:42):
And it's a question I don't havean answer to necessarily, but it's
like, should we adjust how weconsume media based on how real or accurate
it is? And thus, likeit's realness or accuracy, should that change
our perspective on it? And thatI think is a really great conversation that
I'm looking forward to having throughout thisreiteration of the letters. How how long
(34:07):
do you expect this to go thisgo round? I've I don't know I
should have any answer to that,but I don't. I think I think
I like planned for we're going todo two seasons. We'll do a break
in between seasons. But I imagineat the rate ongoing season one will probably
(34:29):
be like six episodes, and thenseason two. I think in the first
run had a longer episode of acount and each episode was longer, So
maybe season two will be eight episodes. Okay, I mean, we have
a lot of places to go,and we still I mean, we've gotten
to hear about Rob and his toughuniversity, but we haven't quite gotten to
(34:52):
Rob yet. And that I thinkwas honestly in the whole thing. As
much as I think like Mark's voicingis what I really like most about that
character of the characters. Rob isjust such such a wild ride and such
a wild card to throw in there, and anything that can go wrong,
(35:12):
Rob's probably connected to it. It'syou have to kind of wonder how the
Karen and Rob found each other truly, truly, especially in the pre Internet
days, like yes, like howthese nobody's been too No, two people
have been better suited for each otherthan Karen and Rob. But what's interesting
(35:32):
is like Karen becomes much more complexand dynamic as the letters go on and
as the truth reveals itself, butRob essentially remains flat throughout, which I
think is nice because then he becomeskind of an anchor where you're like,
no matter how strange or challenging thisgets, we can always laugh at Rob,
(35:53):
which is like a very uniting force. Yeah, absolutely, I guess
my final thought slash question. Soyou know, in season two, we
don't spend a lot of time inthe Bay Area. We're in Washington State,
We're in Hawaii, We're in Kansas, We're in Arizona. We're briefly
in New York, which I'm justnow remembering what's going on in New York.
(36:15):
And I think as the story getsbigger and bigger and bigger, all
it does is like create more focuson the small origin of it all,
which is that cottage in Oakland.My question for you, as I try
to articulate it in my head,is with all that season two is does
(36:36):
it change the way you feel aboutthe letters, and I know we've kind
of talked about that more broadly,like do you have regrets to you know,
does it change the way you consumethem? But like, are you
still able to separate the letters asart per se versus the letters from reality.
(36:58):
That's a really good question that Idon't know that I've really thought about
how I'm I think right now relistening to them, I'm just so struck
by the nostalgia of what we were, those conversations we're having back then,
which we're definitely I may not havehad those same conversations if I knew where
(37:19):
this was going quite so much pokingfun or at specific people, knowing what's
going to happen we're citing with aspecific person, when in the long run
my view completely changed. So Idefinitely interact with them differently in the sense
that I'm seeing different points of viewdifferently knowing it's so hard to discuss this
(37:42):
without like talking about trying to talkaround it, not use names. I
definitely think that the letters, I'mstill just consuming them as entertainment at this
point, and I feel like Iwill. I think that I'm just accepting
them as they are right now,and then as we get closer to it,
I'll start feeling the weight that Ifelt the first time as things were
(38:05):
progressing. Yeah, I guess that'sone of the reasons I was asking.
And I think as we have thisconversation, it's made me concerned about the
people who are listening for the firsttime. It's like, should they get
to or should they just period laughat these letters? And I think the
easy answer is yes because they arefunny, and the complicated answer is yes
(38:32):
because it makes the journey that muchmore impactful. I think if you give
these letters weight now, I mean, there shouldn't be any weight to them
now. And I don't think anyoneshould worry that when we get to the
(38:53):
end they're going to feel bad forlaughing at them, because we're still laughing
at them. I mean, justcan't open my windows on a hot day
because there's a car wash, Like, I mean, how can you not?
How is that not? And thenjust Mark's responses they're funny, and
(39:14):
and then Karen's very shaky math.It's just it's just you get you get
ought to just go with the journeyof it. Yeah, there's like a
point a beautiful anthropology or like vernacularto these, like you know, I
can't be like vacuum, alligator,stupio that they're just like things that come
(39:34):
up that just like will always beendemic to the Karen and Ellen letters.
And I want people to get toexperience that without I guess, thinking too
much about like the scope of wherewe're going, but also to be cognizant
of like there is a story herein the story is bigger than correspondence,
(39:54):
right exactly, And I think thatpeople need to go on on that journey
to get there. I mean,the journey's the point. So laugh because
the letters are funny. They arefunny, and I think that even now,
like I laugh and I also crya little bit. And I think
that's kind of the beauty of thisstory too, is it is not to
(40:15):
like jerk myself off both and likeit is both funny and sad, or
it is both ridiculous and heartwarming.It's it's it contains multitudes, and I
think it has been a very valuablepart in my growth as a narrator.
Is like understanding that everything exists inthe gray, and the Karen and Ellen
(40:40):
letters are just like a paragon ofthat, right and I think it's something
that I didn't appreciate when I readthem on the blog and just kind of
took them at face value and laughedand then even listen to the podcast the
first time, it didn't I didn'tgive them any depth, like they just
(41:01):
were what they were, and thenit starts kind of coming around. So
I just I think as people listento them and they're like, oh,
these are just kind of funny weirdletters, just know that there's more.
It's not just going to be thereading of funny weird letters. There's so
much more to come. Yeah,I think that's such a big part of
my career is like I never oncelike I was like, I need to
(41:22):
find out if these are real,but I never once thought about like what
happens if they are real? Andlike so that I think is a great
story too. So yeah, I'mI'm glad we had this conversation because I'm
excited to now, yeah, lookat this through a very different lens.
Yeah, I'm excited. I'm justI'm excited to hear people talking about these,
(41:47):
like, like I said, theseinside jokes that you've had with so
many friends over the years, andjust bringing new people into that. So
whenever you have a weird smell,be like, is that an avocado behind
the stove? Just like like,the next time we have a weird smell
in your kitchen, you're gonna thinkof a do I have an avocado behind
my stove? And who can Iget to pay for it? Like it's
(42:10):
it's just funny, and it isand it takes over parts of your life
because it is such day to daythings that just come out so funny when
these two are surrounding it. Well, let's end on a low stakes,
trivial question. Okay, are goingto have a great opportunity next month to
have a social do over. Ifeel called out a little bit. So
(42:38):
we were doing a live reading ofthe Karen and Ellen Letters. Unfortunately only
one of the original cast can makeit out to the Berkshires because it is
a track, and that is Jeffwho plays Mark. Charlie tell us about
when you met Jeff for the firsttime. Okay, I need to give
us od like some backup. Sowe went to Seattle for meat up,
(43:00):
and we went to this bar thatserved double. Everything was double, by
the way, Just just for therecord, I didn't drink I didn't think
I drank that much, but Idid. But we did the meet up
first and then after we were therefor what two hours. Well, it
was the most raucous meetup I haveever been at. It was a lot
of people, it was it waspacked. It was in a very interesting
(43:24):
location that Josh had chosen, anold railway car on the side of the
highway that happened to have Chinese food, a bar, and karaoke machines that
were also in Chinese that my husbandwas trying to work for everybody. It
was a night. But what Joshdid, He's like, let's do the
(43:44):
meetup and then my friends from Seattle, because of all the very many places
that Josh has lived, he's livedin Seattle. Then my friends will come
and then we'll just like kind ofparty with them and have a good time.
But so by the time Jeff gotthere, I was in talk he
did and I was so excited tomeet him, And he did not look
(44:05):
interested at all in talking to avery drunk, middle aged woman in a
train car on the side of thehighway. So we did not. I
don't know. So I have beenspending like the last two years pretty sure,
like Jeff, who probably doesn't evenremember me. Like you know,
you have those situations where you reliveit and you're like that person probably hates
me and they're like, I don'teven remember you. Anyway, I'm going
(44:29):
to the Berkshire's next month, andso is Jeff, and so now I'm
going to have a very sober conversationto prove myself to him as an intelligent
person who is not going to fangirlover a voice on the internet. I'm
going to keep it together. That'smy plan. If I may, you
did drunkenly demand multiple times that hedo the voice? I did? I
(44:49):
did, well, he doesn't soundlike Mark when he's just talking, like
not really. I did ask himto do the voice multiple times and kidney
to It's that thing where you asksomeone to say something like oh, no,
do it in that voice or theyspeak another language, and you know,
you're like, well, can yousay something in the language that'd be
(45:09):
cool to hear? Well, youjust put them on the spot. They
don't know what to say. Sohe's like, I literally he didn't know
what. He's like, what doyou want me to say? And I'm
like, something, do you havea letter to read, I'm like,
I don't know, yeah, butthen Lars figured out the karaoke machine,
and I think he's smoothed over alot of a lot of things for me
(45:30):
that night. I mean, ina karaoke to Jeff. Every now and
again someone will ask me to saythat dreaded town name in the Upper Peninsula
of Michigan, and like, youknow, like I'm some sort of circus
monkey, and it really evokes acacophony of emotions same, anger, frustration.
(45:57):
So I understand Jeff, but Ialso under stand you because we've been
friends for a long time. AndI think also that is the joy and
the pain of like becoming notable,is you do become singular in one dimensional
much less in these letters. Andthat's the perfect ending listen perfect, Well,
(46:20):
thank you so much for doing thiswith me, And like, I
just it's so wild to have apodcast friend who's been on this journey since
before it was a podcast. Yeah, it's kind of weird when you're like
you wanted to do it. Karenand Ellen letters after show, I'm like,
well, I don't know if I'min that mindset anymore. And we
used to do these. They usedto be like chaotic because it would be
(46:42):
four people on a call, novideo because do we do it over Skype
or something? I think we didit over Skype, yeah, and so
you never knew when the other personwas trying to talk, and so it
was just like four people all talkingover each other while drinking and they were
so fun. But what the listenerexperience was like, we did do video
(47:04):
the first five and then there wasan unfortunate incident where someone drank too much
and forgot they were on camera,and so we decided we were not going
to do a video anymore. Yeah, I mean it was a very different,
different podcasting experience. Then now we'resitting in our office spaces, we
(47:24):
have real microphones that sound really good. Is going to be we're more weathered
and we're weather weather it is theword. Well, it's i'd say matured,
but weather both. And thank youfor being here. I'm sure i'll
(47:45):
talk to you in the very nearfuture. We need to discuss New York.
But yeah, all right, allright, by Hi Hi,
This is a studio both and production. Hey everyone, this is Josh Hallmark,
the host of The Karen and EllenLetters, and we are reviving and
(00:32):
reformatting I guess the old after shows. For those of you new to the
show and its original run, eachepisode was followed by what was often a
drunken rehashing of the episode's events.So we're going to do that, but
I think have maybe some more philosophical, psychological, ethical conversations. And we're
(00:53):
doing it every two episodes. AndI told Charlie I was not going to
drink, but I did decide toport myself a glass of breakfast Rose for
this perfect I have a cup ofcoffee. So I am here with Charlie
Warrell, host of Crime Lines andCrime Lines and Consequences. And you are
(01:15):
the first guest of the After Showfor a very specific reason, which is
you've been on this journey for longerthan this was a podcast. So tell
me about your introduction to The Karenand Ellen Letters. Alway, So I
was many years ago on a i'llcall it a parenting forum, but it
(01:37):
was really more like a forum ofparents who didn't necessarily identify with the normal
parents who go on parenting forums andwant to talk and brag about their kids.
So it's a little bit more ofa like snarky parenting board. So
we would find posts online from reallyinsufferable parents and also blogs, and so
(02:00):
someone had found the Karen and Ellenletters and are they were like, you
guys have to read these, andI would. So I was an avid
reader of this blog of this guy. I didn't know at the time.
And I have to say, itwas a long time ago. When did
you have the blog? I wantto say two ten. I would say
(02:23):
that sounds about right because my olderkids were a little at the time,
and I mean they're adults now,and I think my daughter was like five.
She would have been about five atthe time. So now let's say
twenty twelve, because I think itwas right around the time I met my
partner Andrew, And that's okay,twelve years ago. Yeah. I was
(02:44):
on that board for many, manyyears until Facebook kind of slowly took over
the forum world and people started shiftingto social media versus forums more than they
do now. So you were readingthe blog and then cut to I guess
five or six years later, thepodcast shows up. So that's a funny
(03:07):
story. Yeah. I read theblog, and then I got into listening
to podcasts and I saw maybe evenin a podcast group, someone posted,
Hey, there's this funny new podcast. It's called the Karen and Ellen Letters.
And what I immediately thought was thatsomeone ripped off an old blog and
took it and turned it into apodcast. I was like, wait,
(03:30):
these can't be the same letters.Wait, I gotta listen to this.
And as soon as I hit play, the first thing you say is how
you got the letters and how theywere a blog, and I was like,
oh, it's the same guy,all right. I don't have to
like yell at anybody on the internettoday. And now we've been friends for
going on six years. Yeah,and now we're friends, which I think.
(03:51):
It's just so funny to think aboutwhere you were when you got the
letters versus where I was, becauseit was, you know, shortly after
Katrina, I was pregnant with mydaughter, and my cousin and her kids
came to live with us. Right, So I have three kids and another
on the way, and my oldestat this point is six years old,
(04:14):
so I have like, you know, six four almost two, I'm pregnant,
my cousin comes with her four children, and we live in a house
that's about eleven hundred and fifty squarefeet. It was, it was,
it was, it was an interestingtime. So I kind of am picturing
you at your now. I mean, I've celebrated your birthday with you now
and thinking of you at your birthday. It's just it's interesting to see where
(04:38):
our lives were at that time andall the things that had to be put
into place for you know, usto be friends now. Yeah, it's
funny. I've been thinking a lotabout, you know, the Karen and
Ellen Letters as a timeline for thepeople who have like participated in it,
and I think that's the beauty ofdoing this in cycles. You know,
(04:59):
a lot of people asked why Itook it down and republishing it, and
I think because that has been consistentwith how I have consumed the Karen and
Ellen Letters. Is like you readthem for three weeks and you laugh and
laugh and laugh, and then youkind of like put them away for a
couple of years, and then theyfind their way back into your hands again.
And so as I've been going backand re narrating the show, it's
(05:20):
really fascinating to look at, likeall a different views of my life every
time the letters are resuscitated. Soyeah, it's interesting to hear your story
about where you were then, orlike talking to Sarah Stapleton who plays Karen,
and when I got the letters,she was in Hawaii, kind of
like feeling a little lost at sea, wanting a child, not knowing,
(05:43):
you know, how that journey wasgoing to happen for her, And now
she has a child, and soI just think it's really lovely because they
do have this cult following and resurfaceevery few years to go back and say
where were we all at this iterationof the letters. So I guess it's
different in these after shows as we'regoing to have to talk around how it
(06:04):
ends. You know, I knowso much. I know so much.
It's interesting to re listen and alsoto get the narration is you're framing is
a little different. The letters arethe same, obviously, and you're presenting
him in chronological order. But Ifeel on this listening and maybe it was
(06:24):
in the earlier ones and it justwasn't what was resonating with me, but
it feels more like we're on yourjourney as much as we are on the
letters progression. As you got theletters, started wondering, Okay, are
these real? What happened? Arethese really two teenage girls? Does Mark
(06:45):
even exist? And kind of followingthat thread a little bit more so,
I actually really enjoyed that on theeven though I know how it ends.
You know, everyone loves a goodmystery that unfolds, so it's still good
on re listening. Yeah, it'sfunny because I think, you know,
we're taught as reporters or journalists orwhatever we want to call ourselves these days,
like never insert yourself into the story, right, And so I guess
(07:09):
I struggle with that because definitely thenarrative this time is not as much about
me, but I play a biggerrole in it. But also like the
story is as much about these lettersas it is about how they've affected me,
and I guess, and then incontrast, how I've affected the story
of the letters, which is aweird thing to find yourself in a position
(07:30):
of power and someone else's narrative.So yeah, I thought that was important.
I think it's also important to talkabout what these letters did for everyone
who has consumed them over the years, because it's a story of initially two
bimbos, and then at the end, you know, maybe it's about two
(07:53):
women who were did wrong and didn'thave control over their own narrative and were
painted quite singularly by some one.Not to give too much away, but
I may have to edit that out. I think it's interesting how many people
are going to find the letters thistime through hate to even mention him in
(08:13):
this context, but Israel Keys.How many people are listeners of that podcast
are going to be like, oh, Josh has this other podcast, let
me go listen, and they're goingto know it through your investigative lens,
because that's how they know you.And I think that's really interesting. I'm
interested to see the discourse around theletters versus back in the roomies days,
(08:37):
where you know, we had agroup on Facebook and it was just a
little bit I think, I honestlythink it's going to be a little bit
more analytical a lot of what peopleare thinking about the letters and what they're
wondering about Oakland in the nineteen eighties, whereas in the roomy days we were
(09:00):
just like whatever, you know,drunken after shows. And although I will
say one of those after shows hadone of the best insights on Mark that
I have ever heard, And itwas one of your friends who I don't
even know, and he said,I just picture Mark living in the Bay
Area in the nineteen eighties. He'sa gay man who has lost a lot
(09:24):
of friends to the AIDS epidemic.And how much of that kind of colors
how he's dealing with these entitled girlswho apparently come from money if they can
afford five hundred dollars gurus, howhe's interacting with that with his life experience.
And I thought, I don't knowif Jeff ever had even that idea
in his head when he was voicingit, but it was an interesting insight
(09:48):
into the possibilities of the backstory ofa character. Yeah, that was Jason
Leroy, who was actually just hearingthe Berkshires a couple of weeks ago.
And it's funny because it's not somethingI had ever thought about, which is
ironic considering, you know, Imoved to San Francisco at the tail end
of that, and you know,you talk a lot about as a gay
(10:09):
man in the Bay Area, wherelike you didn't meet a lot of men
between the ages of forty and fiftybecause many of them had passed, and
so I thought, I agree,that's one of the best insights into at
least mark Psyche that I've heard whiledoing the show or reading these letters.
And then back to your point aboutbroadening the audience, it's strange to go
(10:31):
back and think, you know,there were five hundred people listening to the
podcast and its initial run, whichwas actually fewer than the number of people
who were reading the blog. Soit will be interesting to see new people
find the show, and presumably alot more new people find the show.
And yeah, this was my firstforay into like an investigation, which is
(10:54):
funny to go back and listen toit because I'm quite green and don't know
what the fuck I'm doing. Ithink also, you know, there were
a lot of things I wasn't challengingabout myself that first go around, where
now, you know, having hada crash course in investigative ethics and research
and viewing the whole story through alens of humanity, it's weird, which
(11:20):
is I guess my first question foryou, knowing what you know now are
the letters? Do they still havethe same comedy to them? Oh?
I don't, I'll say, knowingwhat I know Ellen's do Karen's are a
little different, knowing what's coming intoher life in the future. It just,
(11:45):
you know, I feel more it'sa young woman trying to figure out
her path, and Ellen, Ifeel, remained a bit of a more
elusive character even toward even in thebig picture, and a little more like
one dimensional, whereas there's a lotmore about Karen, you know, get
people excited about what's to come.There's a lot more coming, the many
(12:09):
faces of Karen, the many phasesof Karen. I mean, you don't
know Karen till you know. Aloha, Rob, like you have to,
you have to, you have tobe on this journey. Yeah, it's
weird. I have a hard time. I think also, like I've read
and recorded and listened to these lettersso many times that they basically they're no
(12:33):
longer even words. It's just likebackground noise for me. So it's weird
going back now and reading them,I guess for the first time through the
lens of the truth, because Ithink even in its last iteration, we
were looking at them with like investigativevalue, like what could this mean and
where could it lead us? Andnow like we're at the end of the
(12:54):
road. We've seen the whole storyin all its different lenses, or most
of its lenses, and now it'sit's looking at like what was actually happening
here? And so I think thereare moments of comedy, there are moments
of just like frustration, and thenthere are moments of severe empathy, which
(13:16):
is funny because you go back tothe first time we read these and we
were just like laughing at them withoutany thought to what the story actually was.
Right well, and I think forthose who are also re listening this
time, there's a certain amount ofnostalgia. Like as soon as they said
there was a smell behind the stove, I was like, oh wait,
wait, here we go, Herewe go. And you know, they
(13:37):
mentioned the avocado tree, and I'mlaughing at jokes we made a few years
ago about that there's a clock that'sgoing to come up. There are certain
things that will you know, Istill say it could have happened to anyone,
Like on a regular basis. Isay it to my children. I'm
like, coulda happen to anyone?Whenever they do something absolutely ridiculous. It's
(14:00):
just it's funny how these things aregoing to come up. And for me
at this point, being that youknow, I read them on the blog,
which is honestly nothing like the podcastreally, you know, because the
people you have voicing is just likeso perfectly cast, especially you know,
Mark, I love I love howMark is presented just through inflection and a
(14:22):
lot of sighing and things like that. But I think for people who have
listened before, they're going to getthat nostalgia. And I think for people
who are listening for the first time, they're going to come in on an
inside joke that you've had with howmany groups of friends at this point?
How many cities? Yeah, likefive or six. These are avocados and
(14:43):
clocks and gurus. These are allinside jokes you've had with like every group
of friends you've had, and nowyou're bringing kind of your true crime bullshit
friends into it too, And Ithink that's it's kind of it's an interesting
journey. Yeah, it's funny evenyou know, I'm in the Berkshire's now
and the Karen and Ellen letters havenot made their way here, and so
(15:05):
it's fun watching my friends here experiencethese and you're like it's funny. Yeah,
I'm like, oh, I'm openinga door to my history for you,
which it's fun and it even youknow, the true crime bullshit listeners
or the pack listeners who are followingalong and I get to watch them experience
(15:26):
these and not know what's coming.And it's delightful because I think for us,
you know, the big twist oflike the truth to these letters was
so organic and authentic, and wegot to experience that together and we all
(15:46):
kind of like have this whiplash oflike challenging what we had just endured or
been through. We're both so it'llbe fun. And obviously anyone listening to
this now has like a little leadinto like not everything is as it seems,
but I think it'll be very rewarding, especially where the culture is now
(16:07):
versus five years ago, versus tenyears ago versus fifteen years ago. It's
odd to be presented with a characterto voice act. But all you know
is, I'm casting you as theexasperated Bay Area landlord. I'm casting you
as a flighty rich girl who movesthere, who likes art. Like I
(16:30):
mean, it's not like they havea whole lot to work with, but
big picture, I feel like thevoice has nailed it. Like that's exactly
what those people have sounded like.In my opinion, it's funny because Jeff
Powell, who plays Mark, andI were good friends for years before he
took on this role because we didthis live show and I needed actors,
and so I only ever listen toMark as Jeff my friend and not Jeff
(16:56):
an actor, right, and nowgoing back with some space, I'm like,
my god, he's brilliant at this, so good he's acting as ass
Off and again like no one knewhow this was going to end. But
there there's nuance to all of theirperformances. Well there is because he writes
to his uncle Albert, and youget Jeff is laughing as he's doing that,
(17:21):
because that one is we're gonna get. But then the other way,
it's just it's hard to do thatwith the voice only, and he did
it brilliantly, and then just thevoices, so it's the over the top
voice that is like, what iswhat is needed for that? And it's
just I think it's just fascinating thatthey nailed these characters when they didn't actually
(17:45):
know who they were as real people. And I'm sure they don't really sound
like that, but that's definitely whatI would cast them to sound like,
Yeah, I mean, I youknow, I know what two of them
sound like. I guess away thatwe have found at least two of these
people out in the wild the wild, and I would say it is close
(18:10):
and it's not even like it's justtwo different people. So I guess with
that. Talking about, you know, these two episodes, they have two
of my favorite letters, which arethe car Wash and Roger Rabbit, which
are still hilarious to me. Thecar Wash I could listen to that letter
(18:33):
just on a loop all day everyday. What were the standouts for you
in these two episodes. I'm I'mall about the Guru and just the well,
I can't get my budget guru becausehe is he might be dead,
but the other guy's going in checkon him. So now he's out of
town. But now we can geta spirit box instead, just you know,
(18:55):
And I would never ask you topay for all of it. So
let's go have these like I mean, it's just like so, but I
have to say, there's a guystaring at me as I wash my fish.
That is just so classic and that'siconic. Yeah, it was in
the backyard washing my fish and thisguy's just staring at me. But I
mean, again going back to thenostalgia jurisdiction, that was like the word
(19:19):
we. That was one of thejokes with the on the Facebook roomies group,
where you know, it's like takea shot every time they say jurisdiction,
and it's just it's very funny.So it's like the nostalgia part made
me laugh about the jurisdiction still thisday, because jurisdiction comes up a lot,
yeah, our in our current podcast, Yeah, particularly in true crime
(19:41):
bullshit, And anytime I say it, like I chuckle, or if Kaz
is around, she'll like start laughingor look at me, or someone will
whisper drink. I think the podcastamplified its presence in my life because there
were more people to have these insidejokes, right yeah, and people who
(20:02):
overlap in weird ways into your life. I mean, if you're sitting there
discussing with your research or something aboutjurisdiction, which like you said, comes
up a lot when someone is purposelyavoiding jurisdiction, and then just for them
to pop into your head and youknow, the Berkeley Rent control and it's
(20:22):
just so funny. So I wantto talk about now like the journey of
the show, because it's weird.I kind of have this opportunity to go
back and like right wrongs or fixthings or change things. And I think
about season two, which is attimes a wild departure from season one.
It's yeah, definitely, it becomesnarratively much more complex, and also my
(20:45):
style changed a lot. I wasvery depressed. I was watching a lot
of twin Peaks, and I thinkthat resonates in the production. Wow,
I that actually makes a lot ofsense. She just put some pieces together
for me because it was a sharpdeparture from the format, and it was
(21:06):
bringing in like side characters that itwas. It was definitely different. Well,
I think it was like, youknow, we did the Letters and
that was season one for the mostpart, and then season two was like
the same story, but I knewjourney, and so to me it felt
like it had to be it couldn'tbe the same, just right, logistically,
(21:29):
it couldn't be the same. Andtotally it felt like, Okay,
we're involving other people, we're findingout new things, We're going on these
investigative pads, and much like intrue crime bullshit, like sometimes there are
dead ends, and I think that'sthe fun of season two. I think
it alienated a lot of people.It was funny watching the downloads. I
(21:51):
think we lost like thirty percent ofthe audience going into season two. But
as I've been going back and editing, I'm like, I'm really proud of
season two, Like it's range,but I love it. I'm like,
really gonna offend people here, butI think not everyone who listened to season
one was like smart enough to followseason two, if you know what I
mean, Like, nah, Idon't want to say smart can tell.
(22:12):
I mean like a sophisticated listener,like are you reading beach reads or you're
reading literature? And I'm not goingto say it was literature, but it
was like, if you think ofseason one kind of as a beach read,
you can passively listen season two.You had to be a more engaged
listener because there are more characters,there's more paths. But honestly, some
(22:33):
of the I mean it had veryold person on Facebook vibes with all of
that, and I love that.So I mean, I loved season two,
but I also loved your Kelly Cochraneseason so much, and everyone else
You're like everyone skipped out. I'mlike, why it was so good?
Well, people are finding it now. I think it just a context is
everything, because in the context oflike Keys, everyone was like I don't
(22:55):
want this, but you know nowthat it has its own Yeah, it's
a fascinating season. There's this bookI don't know. It's called House of
Leaves by Mark Daniel Luski. Haveyou heard of this? Yeah? I
literally have it on my shelf andhave not touched it. I like in
Season two to that book because itis a very complex read and that it's
like a story within a story,sometimes within a story. I think a
(23:18):
third of the book is in footnoteand it's just kind of you have to
really pay attention. You have toremember where you've been, have a sense
of where you're going, and beable to like manage these different narrative styles.
And I think Season two is alot like that, which is also
what makes it fun is you're disoriented. Yeah. Yeah, I liked season
(23:42):
two. It was very different thanseason one, and I think maybe that's
just and like you've said, withyou know, putting Kelly Cochrane in the
middle of Israel, Keys, sometimespeople you know they're coming to your podcast
for a certain tone, a certainfeel, and I are not getting that.
Then they're like, oh, thisdoesn't this doesn't feel right. But
(24:03):
I mean, I like you said, though, like season two couldn't be
the same as season one because youread the letters and now we're kind of
bringing in a different aspect. SoI guess, looking at the whole journey,
do you have any regrets or hesitationsor pauses for how you have consumed
(24:25):
these up until the ending of NoNo, Because I think it was it
was the journey because when I listenedwhen I read them the first time,
when I listened to the podcast,I didn't know where it was going.
I didn't know if they were real. I didn't know if like like in
my head, Mark had like photocopiedall these letters because it was going to
(24:51):
be part of illegal action as he'strying to evict these two teenagers. Like
that's where I thought it was going, And so I don't think I really
necessarily can assumed it. I mean, I'm glad I didn't know where it
was going. I think I enjoyedit more that way. I think if
I knew, you know, whetherthey were real or not, what they
were copied for why this Kinko's personthought, this is ridiculous. I'm going
(25:12):
to grab some of these. Likeif I knew all of that at the
beginning, I don't think I'd enjoythem as much. So I'm glad I
didn't know. Yeah, the same, And I think now the question I
find myself asking is can someone beboth a hero and a bimbo? Then
(25:33):
two things be true at the sametime, which obviously, I mean the
name of my company is both andexactly exactly I think. And it's funny
because they are dumb letters and dumbdemands and ridiculous and these girls say and
do very stupid things, and it'slike an honesty check to be like,
oh, I can still value youand value your journey and have empathy for
(25:57):
you and like laugh at the stupidsaying yeah, especially the stupid things you
say and do at like eighteen ornineteen, So to some degree, we
can kind of look back at whenwe were starting out. Did we know
what our landlord was supposed to doand what we're supposed to do? Did
we know you know how to geta phone installed into another bedroom? And
(26:17):
I mean there this is like anextreme version of that, but to some
degree we can kind of laugh atthe missteps we made or the assumptions we
made when we were starting out.I mean, we didn't. One of
the things that always struck me aswhen we're listening to them the first time
was why are they not like talkingto their families and being hey, Dad,
(26:38):
I'm confused about blah blah blah,rather than just immediately writing to Mark.
But then you get to the letterwhere Ellen does talk to her grandmother
who lives in Death Valley, andshe's like, I don't know why she's
not giving you an air conditioner youshould ask, or wanting the wood because
he gives firewood to his other tenantwho has a fireplace. Those those things,
(27:00):
it's like they are talking to peopleand they're just either getting bad advice
or they're like confusing it in theirown heads. But also, I mean,
I assume they go to UC Berkeley. This is not a great endorsement
for the college. I don't knowwhat their admission rates are like, but
yeah, it's a little rough forfor UC Berkeley. There. I think
(27:23):
that's you know, that's the onething we all struggled with as we were
investigating this is like, there areno way, regardless of how wealthy these
girls are, they got into UCBerkeley, And I think that's you know,
there are three things that come upor came up throughout the letters that
made me question their validity. Thatwas one of them. The other one
(27:48):
we're going to get to around Christmastime of eighty nine, I think,
and then something involving pickles, Andyou know, I think those are the
moments where you're like, Okay,this can't be real, and then that
gets us into like fiction versus nonfiction, and sometimes there's a very muddy
(28:11):
line between the two. I dothink it's interesting that the letters do have
these weird moments that haven't come upyet, but they are things you can
check. You can fact check.A lot of it is do you know
if this landlord wouldn't give these girlsan air conditioner? There's no way to
fact check that. But there areother things that get mentioned that come up
(28:34):
that are that are moments in historythat are very local moments, very localized.
But then you can then take thatmoment and fact check it and say,
wait, this really this part happened, so what so somewhere along the
line, either someone was really goodabout getting really local local news into these
letters or there is some validity tothem, and that line is a little
(28:59):
fuzzy some times. So what areyour thoughts on like propriety over a story?
And I, you know, likewe are in true crime, and
that's I think an ethical question thatyou know, I live with every single
time I press publish. Exactly Ithink here it's just as complicated, you
(29:19):
know, again without going into howthis all ends, But what are your
thoughts on, like who does thisstory belong to? Who gets to have
ownership over this? Who gets totell this story? I think this one
is so different than a lot ofwhat we cover in true crime because in
true crime, we we're not usuallyusing somebody's private correspondence that they never meant
(29:42):
to be public. If that iswhat this is, right, Like if
I write a letter to my landlord, I don't expect it to one day
show up on some guy's blog.You know, you have an expectation of
privacy there. So if we gowith the Okay, these letters are real,
these are real people. Yeah,to some degree, it's like how
how much of an ownership do Ihave over these letters to tell the story?
(30:07):
But I also think there's a littlebit of like a time, their
time has passed that we're not talkingabout people and where they're living today.
We're not giving out identifying information aboutthem. You've changed the name. Like,
there's certain things in there where Ithink you can tell a story using
basically, they're found historical documents fromthe nineteen eighties. As as much as
(30:30):
it pains us, the nineteen eightiesis history, I mean, it's I
have it's thirty five christ I havea child who's twenty four years old,
and he was born in nineteen ninetynine, so we're talking more than we're
talking like ten years before that.So what we're talking about really is kind
(30:55):
of found historical documents. As ridiculousas that sounds to apply that to this
letter, to these letters, Imean, it's like if I found my
grandmother's journal and I decided to publishit. I don't feel like that's necessarily
like wrong or it's a story thatdoesn't exist out it's not. I feel
like it's it's found historical documents,even if the nineteen eighties we want to
(31:18):
think was sooner or more recent thanit was. Yeah, it's funny,
I because you know, Obviously Imade a choice to do the show and
continue the show and now revive theshow, and it's still kind of murky
to me. I think there's acase for the ends justifying the means.
But again, that's very easy forme to make that call because my stakes
(31:40):
and this are quite low. Soyeah, I don't know. I guess
that's the one thing that hasn't changedthis time around. Is I still kind
of question who gets propriety over thisand at what point do personal letters,
if that's what they are, becomepublic discourse, right? I think that
(32:02):
I I don't think it's a storythat's not worth telling. And it is
interesting because now that you know thewhole picture, there is a bigger story
to tell, whereas maybe if itwas earlier on and you're not just sharing
them with friends, but you're puttingthem out there for everybody, and it's
just like laughing at it. Imean maybe that that's where I'd feel a
(32:27):
little more murky. This I don'tfeel is quite as murky. Yeah,
And I guess in some senses,like if I'm going to give myself a
pass, like sometimes I'm the onewho looks bad in this narrative, you
know, I was a little babyinvestigator and didn't know what I was doing
and was sometimes careless, and like, I will not shy away from that
in this narrative, and it gotyou ready to, you know, do
(32:53):
more investigative things that are you know, bigger, with much higher stakes,
forever everybody involved. So I thinkit's an interesting progression from I wonder if
Mark is real to what you're doingtoday with your work. So yes,
that's an interesting kind of that.The fact that they're even connected, these
(33:16):
letters are connected to what you're doingnow is kind of wild, but it's
mostly the investigation. I also thinkwhat's fascinating is because you don't know,
as a new listener whether these arereal or not, you have to have
the conversation with yourself of how amI consuming this? Am I consuming this
as fiction or nonfiction? Which begsthe question why should there be a difference,
(33:42):
And it's a question I don't havean answer to necessarily, but it's
like, should we adjust how weconsume media based on how real or accurate
it is? And thus, likeit's realness or accuracy, should that change
our perspective on it? And thatI think is a really great conversation that
I'm looking forward to having throughout thisreiteration of the letters. How how long
(34:07):
do you expect this to go thisgo round? I've I don't know I
should have any answer to that,but I don't. I think I think
I like planned for we're going todo two seasons. We'll do a break
in between seasons. But I imagineat the rate ongoing season one will probably
(34:29):
be like six episodes, and thenseason two. I think in the first
run had a longer episode of acount and each episode was longer, So
maybe season two will be eight episodes. Okay, I mean, we have
a lot of places to go,and we still I mean, we've gotten
to hear about Rob and his toughuniversity, but we haven't quite gotten to
(34:52):
Rob yet. And that I thinkwas honestly in the whole thing. As
much as I think like Mark's voicingis what I really like most about that
character of the characters. Rob isjust such such a wild ride and such
a wild card to throw in there, and anything that can go wrong,
(35:12):
Rob's probably connected to it. It'syou have to kind of wonder how the
Karen and Rob found each other truly, truly, especially in the pre Internet
days, like yes, like howthese nobody's been too No, two people
have been better suited for each otherthan Karen and Rob. But what's interesting
(35:32):
is like Karen becomes much more complexand dynamic as the letters go on and
as the truth reveals itself, butRob essentially remains flat throughout, which I
think is nice because then he becomeskind of an anchor where you're like,
no matter how strange or challenging thisgets, we can always laugh at Rob,
(35:53):
which is like a very uniting force. Yeah, absolutely, I guess
my final thought slash question. Soyou know, in season two, we
don't spend a lot of time inthe Bay Area. We're in Washington State,
We're in Hawaii, We're in Kansas, We're in Arizona. We're briefly
in New York, which I'm justnow remembering what's going on in New York.
(36:15):
And I think as the story getsbigger and bigger and bigger, all
it does is like create more focuson the small origin of it all,
which is that cottage in Oakland.My question for you, as I try
to articulate it in my head,is with all that season two is does
(36:36):
it change the way you feel aboutthe letters, and I know we've kind
of talked about that more broadly,like do you have regrets to you know,
does it change the way you consumethem? But like, are you
still able to separate the letters asart per se versus the letters from reality.
(36:58):
That's a really good question that Idon't know that I've really thought about
how I'm I think right now relistening to them, I'm just so struck
by the nostalgia of what we were, those conversations we're having back then,
which we're definitely I may not havehad those same conversations if I knew where
(37:19):
this was going quite so much pokingfun or at specific people, knowing what's
going to happen we're citing with aspecific person, when in the long run
my view completely changed. So Idefinitely interact with them differently in the sense
that I'm seeing different points of viewdifferently knowing it's so hard to discuss this
(37:42):
without like talking about trying to talkaround it, not use names. I
definitely think that the letters, I'mstill just consuming them as entertainment at this
point, and I feel like Iwill. I think that I'm just accepting
them as they are right now,and then as we get closer to it,
I'll start feeling the weight that Ifelt the first time as things were
(38:05):
progressing. Yeah, I guess that'sone of the reasons I was asking.
And I think as we have thisconversation, it's made me concerned about the
people who are listening for the firsttime. It's like, should they get
to or should they just period laughat these letters? And I think the
easy answer is yes because they arefunny, and the complicated answer is yes
(38:32):
because it makes the journey that muchmore impactful. I think if you give
these letters weight now, I mean, there shouldn't be any weight to them
now. And I don't think anyoneshould worry that when we get to the
(38:53):
end they're going to feel bad forlaughing at them, because we're still laughing
at them. I mean, justcan't open my windows on a hot day
because there's a car wash, Like, I mean, how can you not?
How is that not? And thenjust Mark's responses they're funny, and
(39:14):
and then Karen's very shaky math.It's just it's just you get you get
ought to just go with the journeyof it. Yeah, there's like a
point a beautiful anthropology or like vernacularto these, like you know, I
can't be like vacuum, alligator,stupio that they're just like things that come
(39:34):
up that just like will always beendemic to the Karen and Ellen letters.
And I want people to get toexperience that without I guess, thinking too
much about like the scope of wherewe're going, but also to be cognizant
of like there is a story herein the story is bigger than correspondence,
(39:54):
right exactly, And I think thatpeople need to go on on that journey
to get there. I mean,the journey's the point. So laugh because
the letters are funny. They arefunny, and I think that even now,
like I laugh and I also crya little bit. And I think
that's kind of the beauty of thisstory too, is it is not to
(40:15):
like jerk myself off both and likeit is both funny and sad, or
it is both ridiculous and heartwarming.It's it's it contains multitudes, and I
think it has been a very valuablepart in my growth as a narrator.
Is like understanding that everything exists inthe gray, and the Karen and Ellen
(40:40):
letters are just like a paragon ofthat, right and I think it's something
that I didn't appreciate when I readthem on the blog and just kind of
took them at face value and laughedand then even listen to the podcast the
first time, it didn't I didn'tgive them any depth, like they just
(41:01):
were what they were, and thenit starts kind of coming around. So
I just I think as people listento them and they're like, oh,
these are just kind of funny weirdletters, just know that there's more.
It's not just going to be thereading of funny weird letters. There's so
much more to come. Yeah,I think that's such a big part of
my career is like I never oncelike I was like, I need to
(41:22):
find out if these are real,but I never once thought about like what
happens if they are real? Andlike so that I think is a great
story too. So yeah, I'mI'm glad we had this conversation because I'm
excited to now, yeah, lookat this through a very different lens.
Yeah, I'm excited. I'm justI'm excited to hear people talking about these,
(41:47):
like, like I said, theseinside jokes that you've had with so
many friends over the years, andjust bringing new people into that. So
whenever you have a weird smell,be like, is that an avocado behind
the stove? Just like like,the next time we have a weird smell
in your kitchen, you're gonna thinkof a do I have an avocado behind
my stove? And who can Iget to pay for it? Like it's
(42:10):
it's just funny, and it isand it takes over parts of your life
because it is such day to daythings that just come out so funny when
these two are surrounding it. Well, let's end on a low stakes,
trivial question. Okay, are goingto have a great opportunity next month to
have a social do over. Ifeel called out a little bit. So
(42:38):
we were doing a live reading ofthe Karen and Ellen Letters. Unfortunately only
one of the original cast can makeit out to the Berkshires because it is
a track, and that is Jeffwho plays Mark. Charlie tell us about
when you met Jeff for the firsttime. Okay, I need to give
us od like some backup. Sowe went to Seattle for meat up,
(43:00):
and we went to this bar thatserved double. Everything was double, by
the way, Just just for therecord, I didn't drink I didn't think
I drank that much, but Idid. But we did the meet up
first and then after we were therefor what two hours. Well, it
was the most raucous meetup I haveever been at. It was a lot
of people, it was it waspacked. It was in a very interesting
(43:24):
location that Josh had chosen, anold railway car on the side of the
highway that happened to have Chinese food, a bar, and karaoke machines that
were also in Chinese that my husbandwas trying to work for everybody. It
was a night. But what Joshdid, He's like, let's do the
(43:44):
meetup and then my friends from Seattle, because of all the very many places
that Josh has lived, he's livedin Seattle. Then my friends will come
and then we'll just like kind ofparty with them and have a good time.
But so by the time Jeff gotthere, I was in talk he
did and I was so excited tomeet him, And he did not look
(44:05):
interested at all in talking to avery drunk, middle aged woman in a
train car on the side of thehighway. So we did not. I
don't know. So I have beenspending like the last two years pretty sure,
like Jeff, who probably doesn't evenremember me. Like you know,
you have those situations where you reliveit and you're like that person probably hates
me and they're like, I don'teven remember you. Anyway, I'm going
(44:29):
to the Berkshire's next month, andso is Jeff, and so now I'm
going to have a very sober conversationto prove myself to him as an intelligent
person who is not going to fangirlover a voice on the internet. I'm
going to keep it together. That'smy plan. If I may, you
did drunkenly demand multiple times that hedo the voice? I did? I
(44:49):
did, well, he doesn't soundlike Mark when he's just talking, like
not really. I did ask himto do the voice multiple times and kidney
to It's that thing where you asksomeone to say something like oh, no,
do it in that voice or theyspeak another language, and you know,
you're like, well, can yousay something in the language that'd be
(45:09):
cool to hear? Well, youjust put them on the spot. They
don't know what to say. Sohe's like, I literally he didn't know
what. He's like, what doyou want me to say? And I'm
like, something, do you havea letter to read, I'm like,
I don't know, yeah, butthen Lars figured out the karaoke machine,
and I think he's smoothed over alot of a lot of things for me
(45:30):
that night. I mean, ina karaoke to Jeff. Every now and
again someone will ask me to saythat dreaded town name in the Upper Peninsula
of Michigan, and like, youknow, like I'm some sort of circus
monkey, and it really evokes acacophony of emotions same, anger, frustration.
(45:57):
So I understand Jeff, but Ialso under stand you because we've been
friends for a long time. AndI think also that is the joy and
the pain of like becoming notable,is you do become singular in one dimensional
much less in these letters. Andthat's the perfect ending listen perfect, Well,
(46:20):
thank you so much for doing thiswith me, And like, I
just it's so wild to have apodcast friend who's been on this journey since
before it was a podcast. Yeah, it's kind of weird when you're like
you wanted to do it. Karenand Ellen letters after show, I'm like,
well, I don't know if I'min that mindset anymore. And we
used to do these. They usedto be like chaotic because it would be
(46:42):
four people on a call, novideo because do we do it over Skype
or something? I think we didit over Skype, yeah, and so
you never knew when the other personwas trying to talk, and so it
was just like four people all talkingover each other while drinking and they were
so fun. But what the listenerexperience was like, we did do video
(47:04):
the first five and then there wasan unfortunate incident where someone drank too much
and forgot they were on camera,and so we decided we were not going
to do a video anymore. Yeah, I mean it was a very different,
different podcasting experience. Then now we'resitting in our office spaces, we
(47:24):
have real microphones that sound really good. Is going to be we're more weathered
and we're weather weather it is theword. Well, it's i'd say matured,
but weather both. And thank youfor being here. I'm sure i'll
(47:45):
talk to you in the very nearfuture. We need to discuss New York.
But yeah, all right, allright, by Hi Hi,
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Gregg Rosenthal and a rotating crew of elite NFL Media co-hosts, including Patrick Claybon, Colleen Wolfe, Steve Wyche, Nick Shook and Jourdan Rodrigue of The Athletic get you caught up daily on all the NFL news and analysis you need to be smarter and funnier than your friends.