September 19, 2024 • 35 mins
What kind of friend am I? with Danielle Bayard Jackson In the latest episode of "The Kay Wats Podcast," Kay interviews friendship expert and educator Danielle Bayard-Jackson. Danielle shares insights from her recent book, “Fighting For Our Friendships,” and discusses the intricacies of women's relationships. Danielle and Kay also reflect on their personal experiences and how they have matured in the past year as women.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hey guys, Welcome to the k Watts Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I'm your host Kashawn Watson, but you know me as
Ka Watts, and I'm super excited that you decided to
join me today. This is the podcast where we chat
about the questions we ask God, we share testimonials about healing, wholeness,
and forgiveness. It doesn't matter what season of life you
may be in or the journey you may be currently
walking through. I know that this podcast will bless you.
(00:27):
At the end of the episode. If you feel like
that this has done exactly what I said, definitely hit
that like button, comment, share, don't forget to subscribe again.
Welcome to the KWATS podcast. Hey guys, welcome to an
all new episode of the k WATS podcast. I'm your
host Kashawn Watson, but you know me as Kay Watson.
I am personally super excited about this week. Skutshaw, I
(00:51):
have friend expert and educator I'm talking about host a
friend for it podcast and the author of Fighting for
Our Friendships is Danielle Bear Jackson.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
Thank you for having me, Thank you for the gracious welcome.
I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Okay, so I really want to jump right into all
the juice, but before I do, Before I do, I
wanted to first tell you how proud I am of
how you've been able to Stewart not just this season,
but previous seasons, because when we go through I feel
(01:28):
like the origin story of not just fighting for your
friendships the book. I love the fact that it started
with you being a high school teacher. I love that
so much because I think that that speaks to so
many people that no season is ever wasted. So for
you to really Stuart this season of being a confidant
(01:49):
and an advisor mentor for young women and then really
seeing like, hey, I'm gonna really really Stuart this season,
but I'm going to use what I learned in this
season to even go forward in the next season. So
I just want to say how proud I am of
you that you just didn't waste a thing, did you? Not?
Speaker 1 (02:08):
A thing? That is really sweet?
Speaker 3 (02:10):
And I appreciate you saying that and calling that out,
and you know, as you're speaking, it's it's so funny
because I'm thinking about those moments when I was tempted
to transition out of education and the thing that kept
me a little bit longer than I should have said
it was. I kept saying, I can't do anything else.
And a lot of teachers feel that way. Like I'm
(02:31):
a teacher, you know, and I still feel that way
in my blood. That's who I am. But I just
was like, I I don't know how to survive in
the real world. You know, I'm a classroom girl.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
You're thriving, so you know, it's just so beautiful, I
think to see how God orchestrates things, because there were
certain skills, experiences.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
Connections that could only have been developed in that space
that I was surprised to learn would be kind of
the bedrock of what I do outside the classroom. So
it all worked together.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Yes, yes, so okay, I mean I know that you've
been getting this. I've been watching I've been watching your
journey of the launch of the book, but just just
the progression of you really leaning into the science and
the art of conflict and communication of women relationships, right,
(03:22):
And I first want to start by saying, like, why
are we this complex?
Speaker 1 (03:32):
I know, like it's as soon as.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
You think that you got one aspect of it, figure
it out. And those that haven't read the book, I
definitely encourage you to go read the book.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
There's so many layers to this.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
This is something that every single woman can identify with,
every single young person, every single young adult. So I really,
once you started getting into the nuts and bolts of research,
did you just have one of those moments where you
were like, God, what you made us?
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Why are we?
Speaker 2 (04:05):
What are these complexities? Are they self inflicting? Do you
think that's just who we are? Like as a bedrock
of it, like this is just how we are. We
just need to figure out how to navigate that. Or
is this one of those things where it's kind of like, no,
we've kind of self inflicted some of these things and
now we're kind of like navigating the fruit of what
we've inflicted on ourselves to be able just to have
(04:29):
healthy friendships with one another.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Like I'm very curious, Like that was a long winded question,
but you get what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (04:35):
Yeah, I know, I totally know what you're saying. And
that's like the age old question is like why are
women the way that they are? And you know, there's
one point in the book where I talk about how
people often say it's just so complicated, it's so complicated
and I tell the story of looking up that word
one day and just being like, what does that mean?
And as a former English teacher, I'm always like, what's
the definition, you know? And it said the intersection of
(04:56):
many parts. And that is what our friendships involved. It's
the intersection of many parts. So unlike men's friendships, you know,
and those can definitely be deep and meaningful as well,
But on average, women's friendships are deeper because we're not compartmentalizing.
You're not just my mom friend. You're my spiritual friend
and my gym friend, and you're helping me raise my
(05:18):
kids and we're goal planning together. You were so deeply
integrated into my life and so natural. That's going to
make things a bit trickier because we're a little more
tied up with one another and there's stuff that comes
with that. And you know, when it comes to women
and all of our unusual complexities, I think all the
things that make us so special and beautiful in our
(05:39):
powers and things like that, there's two sides to everything, right,
So for example, we often say, you know, as a woman,
we have that sixth sense, like just trust me, I
sense it. I can pick it up right and there's
so much good that comes out of sensing, oh there's
something more here, right, we have that we're in touch
in that way, but does that, you know, become a
barrier where we think we're reading subtext and what a
(06:02):
friend said or did and it's like, no, there's no subtext,
Like what happened is what happened. But we're like, yeah,
but what did that mean? Though? And maybe in this
situation there there was no what it meant, you know.
So I just think, you know, there are so many
things that are superpowers, but they are great when harnessed
the right way. And so the hope was that with
the book Fighting for Our Friendships, we can help to
(06:23):
illuminate some of the complexities and mechanics of women's friendships.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
So good when you said it was a science and art,
you weren't a lion, sis, were you?
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Because it's the mechanics of it all.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
So I wanted to kind of like touch on a
couple of things that really stood out to me, not
only just in the book, but what I've kind of
like seeing, like I feel like being a woman that's
now transitioning. I'm in my late thirties, like going through
friendships in my twenties was a whole different shebang. Then
I think walking through friendships in your thirties is a
(06:59):
whole different French chebang.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Being married and all.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Of those factors, Right, So two things kind of like
really stood out to me and I would love to
kind of get your feedback on it. We're in this culture,
at least online and socially. I really feel like probably
in the last couple of years to where the buzzword
has been community, right. So many women are looking for
the girl group, they're looking for their tribe, they're looking
(07:23):
for their travel buddies, they're looking for their Bible study buddies.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Like, there's a lot of these big.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Buzzwords on community and something that we've seen just really
thriving and growing and we can see what the community
looks like. My question is is that do we or
have we buzzed or subbed in the word community for
clicks right? And if so, our clicks healthy? Are Is
(07:52):
there a such thing as a good click? I'm just
very curious if that's something that you've seen in your research,
and what's your thoughts on that you're asking?
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Okay, so many things you're asking such thoughtful questions. That's
such a great question. I have so many thoughts. Secondly,
I had to gather myself because you said you're in
your late thirties, and I just thought, is your late thirties.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
In the room with us?
Speaker 3 (08:11):
Where?
Speaker 2 (08:11):
No, ma'am, I turn thirty nine on Friday. Okay, wow, wow,
I love you so much. Just drop the skincare routine immediately.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
Okay, so after the show, why don't you drop that
in the show notes?
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Oh that's good.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
Yeah, look great, you're beautiful. Thank you. It surprised me.
That's that's awesome. Okay, this is such a great conversation
with like the community thing. You're absolutely right. I have
very strong feelings about that being kind of a commodified word.
Even brands are using it. We want community, Like.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Okay, what do we all? What are we saying? Right?
Speaker 3 (08:47):
And then clicks. That's a terrific that's a terrific point.
Here's my thought. And people might feel differently, but here's
what I'm telling you from a person who studies this
and has had several women in trust me with with
certain friendship things over the years. A click is it
speaks to a certain exclusivity. This is our group. There
(09:07):
are people funneling in and out. We have a certain language,
we have a shared culture. This is the exclusive group.
I understand that you naturally fall into spaces where it's
like wha. We have a rhythm, we have you know,
a flow, we have a certain chemistry. These are my people.
Totally get that there's safety there, there's a level of
trust there because these are my exclusive people. We've established
(09:28):
trust in relationship makes total sense. The problem becomes when
this group is the extent of my community. The problem
comes when we see somebody in need and we're shunning
people who could use support and access because you're not
in the group. And so my efforts, my attention, my care,
my love is exclusive to this group. I believe that's
(09:51):
where it becomes dangerous and unhelpful. So I think those
are the questions we need to ask ourselves. It's cool
to have people who like your people, your inner circle,
and you need that right, but also you know when
your group, when your group is keeping you sucked into
the group, and it's not encouraging or edifying the way
(10:13):
you show up in the world. We have a problem
because I was not creating and designed to just be
here for the inner group. I was also created to serve,
plug in share resources with the world. And so if
my group is keeping me sucked in and absorbed here,
I'm missing the rest of my mission because while you
are my people, this is not the extent of my territory.
(10:35):
And so I think we need to be clear about clicks.
There's comfort, familiarity, and trust, but are we keeping each
other from the other people we're meant to engage with, serve, edify,
and build up. Maybe that is kind of the difference.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
That's so good, And I think that kind of like
goes into some things that you were discussing in the book,
which one of the questions I have for you is
that is it possible? Well, is it a real thing
where a friend can be stolen? Right? The fear of
the fear of losing a friendship, the fear of that
people are coming in and being a little friendship snatchers,
(11:13):
Like is this a real thing that I'm who's the friendship?
I just snatching them up?
Speaker 3 (11:20):
Like?
Speaker 1 (11:20):
Are there people to where that's what's happening? We have
little friendship snatchers going on?
Speaker 2 (11:25):
And if so, are we creating these walls because we're
afraid that people are just going to come up and
just start scooping our friends up. So I'm curious to know, like,
are we creating communities and maybe like our own personalized
groups as a safety barrier because we're afraid that friendships
can be stolen. We're afraid that that friends can go
(11:48):
away someone else can just snatch.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Is that a thing?
Speaker 3 (11:51):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (11:51):
You know.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
So we serve a four hundred women and we ask
them about their experiences with friendship coaching and friendship introductions
and friendship overlap meaning my friends are friends, just just
trying to gauge her attitude with all these different things,
and fifty percent of women did say, yes, this has
really happened to me. And this is why I really
enjoy leaning in, like exploring what the research has to
(12:12):
say about these things, because I don't want to give
my opinion. I don't want to lead with my experiences
because for me personally, I don't think to my knowledge,
I don't think I've ever had a friend like taken away.
But it's not about my experience. The research acknowledges that
this does in fact happen. That you have people who
are maybe introduced to a friend of yours and for
(12:33):
whatever reason. It could be because she's naturally a competitive person,
so she sees everything as an opportunity to excel past
other people. So it could be that she's competitive and
wants to take her It could be that she really
really likes this new friend and wants her attention exclusively,
and you become kind of like a threat to her
getting to know her, so she wants her to herself.
There are so many, so many reasons why a person
might be motivated to do that, but it is real.
(12:55):
It does happen. I think because it's a real thing.
I don't know how frequent, but because it's a real thing.
You do have women who do not even want to
introduce their friends for fear that what if they get
along better then they get with me, or what if
they and those are all valid. I do think that
you know, those people either have had happen before, so
naturally they're less inclined to do it. They are probably
(13:18):
more anxious generally, where you are operating in fear, I'm
not going to do this because what if I get
left behind? What if I get abandoned? If I So,
a person who's generally more anxious might feel that way
and I've noticed that people who are more extroverted are
more open to it because that's just how they operate.
They know all the people and they feel like the
more the marria, so maybe they're more comfortable. And then
(13:39):
the last thing I'll say is it sometimes depends on
the person, because maybe you're all for friendship sharing, but
when it comes to like your best like your girl,
they're now some people because I don't need anybody like
coming up to my car, you know. So we have
different factors that influence the degree to which we're comfortable sharing.
I'll say this, does that happen? Yes, And you have
(14:01):
to be comfortable like confronting and calling out like okay,
what's going on because I've seen y'all a hanging out.
Love that for you, but I would also love to
join sometimes like there's ways I can like say it,
but I will say. One contradiction I've noticed is women
expressing a desire for a friendship group and they want
their click and their people their community, but simultaneously are like,
I don't want my friends to know each other. To me,
(14:22):
those two things don't go together. At some point, a
group fourm because somebody brought their people together in a
room and let them just kind of do their thing.
And so I think in healthy friendships, it's a beautiful
thing to introduce people to each other, but it does
require certain security and feeling like, I know I offer
something unique I can't be replaced. I see it as
(14:44):
a flex to bring my people together and be like, yeah,
I coordinated that they hit it off, and I did that.
You know. So we have different attitudes, but you know,
that's one of the main ways people form connections is
through other people. So somebody's got to be comfortable doing it.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Listen, So basically, what's your sayings that we all need
therapy before interacting? I didn't say all I did. Yeah, okay,
so wow, this is so good. All right, Well that
kind of like leads me into what is what would
you say is the right etiquette. Let's say that that
(15:21):
does happen. Let's say that you have a group of friends.
You invite everyone over.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
It's a great mixer, it's a girl's night.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
You have one of your friends that you've known for
let's say about five years, right, you guys have a
pretty solid friendship, and then a new person comes in, Right,
And what happens.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
If you like her more?
Speaker 3 (15:41):
Right? Interesting because in that same survey we ask women,
have you ever been have you ever had a friend
introduced you to one of her friend and found yourself
really liking that new friend? Eighty percent said yes. Really
sense because if you like your friend, she probably as
people in her network who were all so funny and
(16:03):
they have the same interest, so that you're naturally being like, oh,
she's cool too, right, yeah, so it makes sense. So
this it's interesting that word etiquete because I don't know
what the proper etiquette is, but I do know that
friendships are the most ambiguous relationship you'll ever have. What
are the rules? I don't know what do you expect
to me? You are different. There's so much gray area
(16:24):
compared to other relationships where we know how this works
as a mom, I know what our role and responsibility is.
As an employee, I know what the terms and conditions
are like, we know how this works. With friendship a
varies person in person. There's a lot of great area
and expectations. With that being said, if you find yourself
in a situation where you're not sure, like okay, should
they be able to hang out? I feel like we
(16:46):
can we hang out orre she gonna see say it
to say it, and let's minimize that right now, Hey,
you know, I really clicked with your friend so and
so the other day. She seems amazing, and I just
was thinking the three of us, you know, could go
like maybe I'm starting with the three of us right,
or you know, saying like, hey, we've been hitting it
off on in the DMS and we were going to
(17:07):
go to this contract that we both really love on Friday.
That's okay, right, because I don't want to step on
your toes, but I also like really enjoy her, you know,
And to say it, now, this other person's feelings are
their own. I'm not responsible for them, but at least
there can't be accusations of misleading, stealing. I told you upfront,
we enjoy each other. And again, even that gets tricky
(17:28):
because some people feel like they don't owe that that,
like I don't owe you asking permission.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
We hang out who we want to hang out with exactly.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
I think the fact that there is so much chatter
signals to me like, oh, I guess we need to
talk about this because we're all walking around here with
different ideas of what's appropriate I guess we need to
put it on the table.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
Wow, this is like so good.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
And so when I was reading your book, there was
where I think that you said as you were kind
of like going through certain of the recent search that
it was one of those things where you have moments
of like, let's really get down to the root of
what the issue is. Like, you know, we can bring
up all of these other things of issues that we're
(18:14):
having with a friend, but things like you talk about
like keywords. But one of the things that you said
that really stood out to me there was a word
that you used in regards of abandonment, the fear of abandonment.
And I think about how those things and rather that
is like a childhood trigger or trauma, and how these
things kind of like resurface in our young adults or
in our grown woman adult relationships, to where the fear
(18:38):
of that one of our friends are going to abandon
us because they think that there's something better on the
other side, or the fear that our friends are going
to abandon us because what happens if we get into
our first like big fight and blow up and it
just doesn't go well right, It's that it's that level
of opening yourself up to potentially be hurt, but then
also opening yourself up to where you may have to
mature in this area, which I think is so big
(19:02):
for us. And I think it's a conversation that there
hasn't been enough of. And I'm so glad that you
are having it. I'm so glad that you're providing resources
and research for us to be able to see like, Hey,
this isn't just in your head. This just isn't happening
in you're a friend group in your city, because some
people think demographically, oh, this just happens a lot in
this particular place, right, but this is happening with us
(19:26):
in totality, like this is what's going on. One of
the things that I if I'm gonna be honest, is
that I felt like I needed to first of all,
apologize to all the people that I was friends with
from the ages of thirteen, probably all the way up
into thirty.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
I'm not gonna lie, there was Danielle you laugh.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
I think I know there is a lumpsum apology that
needs to go out because when I was going through
the love obsessed friend, the controlling friend, the jealous friend,
the newly changed the clingy friend, the negative friend. At
some stage or point in my life, in a span
of probably a solid fifteen years, I was one or
(20:10):
more of these kinds of friends. And I think that
there is this level that sometimes we are able to
point out the negative friend and someone else, and it's
very hard for us to be like, oh, my goodness,
I'm the negative friend right now in this friendship. I'm
the negative I'm the jealous friend in this group. And
(20:31):
I found that in reading your book that it was
helping me to be able to be accountable. And I
hope as other people are reading it and maybe that's
something that is happening, to be accountable, but then also
to be able to be honest and to repent and
to apologize for people that I hurt, not really having
(20:52):
the language at the time. Sometimes we don't have the
language to be like, you know, I'm a little controlling.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
I like things my way.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
I like to have the friendship my way, and if
it doesn't go my way, then I may think that
person isn't a good friend. But really I just had
control issues. So I appreciated the research. I appreciated the
fact that this book kind of like touches on so
many things. Another question that I have that I thought
was pretty interesting is that we talk about what happens
(21:25):
when you want to go from being an acquaintance to
a friend, Like I think I even saw that to
it posed this question like have you ever found yourself
to where you were always you're kind of like the friend,
but not like the good good friends, So maybe you're
just a really good acquaintance, right? Is it okay sometimes
to be okay with being an acquaintance in a relationship?
(21:48):
Should we always strive to have deep, intimate, meaningful friendships
with every woman that we meet along the way, or
is it okay to be like, hey, I'm not her bestie,
she's not mine. We grab a coffee every once in
a while, we check in, we're social media besties, but
(22:09):
that's the extent of our friendship. Or is that signs
or red flags to where maybe there is something that
I need to do a little bit digging on, like
why am I unable to do that? I'm very curious
and what you think about that? Yeah, so according to
the research, we need everything you just described. There's a
framework by a social scientist kas Lee Kilum. She called
(22:33):
it the five to three one framework two know if
you have good social health, because that is a domain
of health now. And the idea is that people who
are happy and healthy, they have lots of friends, They're
deeply connected. And so to achieve that you should have
these things. You should be socializing with five different groups
or types of people a week. So that could mean
(22:56):
a neighbor, a boyfriend, a coworker. Already, that's three, right,
I know you in like different contexts, So five different
social contexts a week. You should be maintaining three good
relationships and having I believe it's one hour of social
interaction a day for good social health. The reason I
(23:16):
bring that up is because it underscores a bigger truth,
which is relational diversity is so important.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
I like the idea of a bestie. There's something, there's
a romantic element about it. There's this one girl. She
gets me, she's my everything, she's all my things. That's
really nice. I've had that at a certain season in
my life. I've had my girl. I was her girl. Right,
But you know, ask yourself, can you get all the
things you need from the collective instead of the singular?
You need to be intellectually challenged. You need spiritual support
(23:45):
and things like that. You need a person who can
like share practical resources with you, right, Like I have
some mom friends, and the extent of it is, you know,
we share. Oh did you know that the program you
know registers on Thursday?
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Oh? I didn't know.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
The registration opens on Thursday for the kids Lego club. Like,
I mean, but I have that mom. She's always put
me on and that's kind.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Of what it is.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Would you consider that a deep friendship or would you
consider that would not?
Speaker 1 (24:10):
I would consider that.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
I would say like, oh, that's a mom friend but
it's very surface level and I think I'm okay with
it because I have deep friendships elsewhere. So I could see.
If all of your friendships have to be deep, I
think that says something. And I could see if you're like, no,
I want them all to kind of just be chill.
I think that says something too. We need that texture
in our lives because I do need people who I'm
accountable to. They know me a little more intimately, I'm
(24:33):
responsible for them in a way, them for me whatever.
But we also need what sociologists refer to as weak ties,
meaning people who it's not that deep but we know
each other. It's a mood boost whenever I see you,
and so we have to be able to release the
hope that everyone we meet will turn into deep friendship,
because I do think it sets us up for disappointment.
You also practically can't do that with everyone. The research
(24:56):
finds that you only have the cognitive capacity to maintain
three to five ultra close relationships at a time. So
for me to expect that I can go deep with
these fifteen girls, it's just very ambitious. And I wonder
if we sacrifice depth for breath when we have that
as the goal.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Oh, that's good.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
So I'm curious, you know, the podcast is the place
where we share the questions that we ask God. I'm
curious during the time that you started this research to
where you knew that this was something that you needed
to dive into. From leading up to all of the
press and the interviews and the book tour and all
of the things. What has been the thing that has
(25:41):
shocked you the most throughout the process In the last
couple of years, something that.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
Has surprised me most about this work is, Oh, I've
actually never said this a lot before.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Exclusive Exclusive, Like.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
There are lots of things in the research that surprised me, like,
oh my god, I didn't know that that's so interesting.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
But I would say.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
Personally, is you know it studying new things and hearing
women share and things like this, it surfaces to me
areas where I need to not just improve, but areas
I need to repent. Whether it's with ego, apologizing to friends,
(26:33):
pride thinking I know more than somebody else, or this
friend she judgment. Oh god, she's making those parenting choices.
She's gonna do that with her job. Girl, Like you're
gonna date him? I mean really, like is that a
spirit of judging? Like judging your decisions? So it's exposed
to me doing this work and being so deeply entrenched
(26:55):
in the details of women's friendship, talking about it all
the time, showing me areas we're like, oh no, no,
that's not okay. And so it's less about I want
to improve, but showing areas where I need to be
more repentant and turn away completely from certain behaviors. Because
that has given me the freedom to explore more and
(27:17):
to speak on it more. Because I did have a
sense of who am I to talk about this when
I first started and I've never wanted to hold myself
as the standards, so I never talk about my friends.
Not often, I don't talk about myself. But I felt
a very I always say imposter syndrome, But I thought,
who am I to lead this conversation? Because if people
(27:37):
knew some of the things I've said to people growing
up and saying the things I did, but you're able
to speak boldly in areas that you have been forgiven
for and repentant of, so I no longer feel shame
about those things. So I do feel like I can
take up space and have this conversation because I am
not the standard. If anything, the ugliness or the mess
(28:00):
of things that I've been through or things that I
have were my own doing. If anything, I hope that
where I'm speaking now shows hope that you can come
out of certain behaviors or negative mindsets or they say,
like scarcity mindset. You know, if I think my friend's
going to be taken, do I introduce her? Or if I,
(28:21):
you know, think that this new girl is going to
be likes more than me, do I? You say little
things to make people not think she's awesome, you know,
like all of that insecurity, those kinds of things were
very real parts of my life, you know, in high
school and early college, and so repenting of those behaviors
allows me more freedom and boldness to speak on it.
(28:41):
And I hope that that doesn't look like hypocrisy. I
hope it looks like Wow, then there's hope for me,
because if there's a genuine change of heart and mind,
maybe I can come out of these spaces where I
feel isolated, stuck, misunderstood, unwanted, where I find myself doing
ugly things because I'm not sure of myself. You mean,
(29:03):
it's possible to come out of this. Yes, So so
that's what's been unearthed for me in doing this work.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
So good, so so good.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
I love the fact that you had said the revelation
that you're not the standard. I haven't literally talking to
God about Lord, give me teach me how to test
the fruit gracefully that someone else has. Like I was
in a in a in a posture of like, I
(29:36):
know that we're supposed to test the fruit, and people
sayd you test test the spirit? You got to check
for that fruit and you see that all over the place,
and I really felt like, God, how do I test it? Gracefully,
because I haven't seen a good model of this. I
remember posing this question like I've seen it done harshly,
I've seen it done scarcely. I've seen it done, but
(29:58):
like I just didn't I feel like I had a
good model to know how to test the fruit of
another person graciously and literally as I'm asking this question,
the Lord comforted me. And then I've also convicted me
and let me know the model was never supposed to
be a person.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
It was my son that I sent.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
I sent you the model of someone who tested fruit gracefully,
and that's the model that you should follow anytime that
you are interacting with someone and you feel like something
don't seem right or I don't know about this particular person,
like is there something off in this?
Speaker 1 (30:40):
Really? I need to test the fruit, you know. And
it completely.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Radically changed my mind and my approach. But it also
convicted me for making myself and other people the standard
of how to test something, how to check something, how
to validate something. And that's why I had to do
the full apology to everyone for the times to where
I use myself as the model and the standard, because
(31:08):
that's just unfortunately we have been doing that. So I
love the fact about the repentance thing because that is real,
especially as we move forward really searching for healing and
wholeness when it comes to our fractured relationships or even
trying to understand the complexities of who we are as
women and how do we truly connect and sharpen one
another and move forward with one another.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
So I love this.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
But last question I have is like, what is the
hope that you really want people to get out of
fighting for our friendships? And has that hope changed from
the time when you first you know, maybe the hope
that you have when you first hit sin to publish
the book to where now being on the side of
(31:55):
promoting it and hearing people's testimonies or their responses, is
there different hope that you have when people read this book? Uh?
Speaker 3 (32:04):
You know. In twenty twenty, I had a TikTok go
virals when I got on TikTok and it went crazy
and I wasn't familiar at the time. I had just
jumped on and it was like a quick stitch video
to a girl asking about like what do you wish
you know in your twenties? And I said something about
like female friendships, you know, prioritizing them and then being
good for your health. That blew up, and there were
(32:28):
so thousands of comments of women saying, man, I wish
I had that, and I don't. I mean, just just
the little men thing what they wish they had in friendship.
And right there that night, it was two in the morning,
I was looking through all these comments and I took
out cheet of paper and I just was like writing
prayers for all these women. And I said, Lord, this
(32:51):
is in twenty twenty.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
I said, if you.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
Expand my platform, I will give it back to you.
If you grow this, if you let meet more women's
I promise you. And so it's crazy to see all
the things that happened, right, But my hope is still
the same that those women in the comments who are
feeling like it's too late for them, that they're too
far gone, that you know, I had so much trauma
in my life. I'm too. I'm not shaped for good
(33:20):
friendships or who believe all women are pet you can't
trust them women with a certain hardness and hopelessness. I
guess my prayer for them is that in reading the book,
they begin to see all that's available to them in friendship.
And I don't just mean making more friends, but in
(33:40):
the relationships you have, there's more available. It might be
on the other side of that hard talk you don't
want to have. It might be on the other side
of lovingly setting that boundary so friends know. It might
be on the other side of putting yourself out there.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (33:54):
But there's so much life left. There's so much more
available to you that you have not uncovered yet. There
are friends you haven't even met yet. And I hope
that women read the last page, close the book and
feel like, Okay, I'm so ready to receive all that
lies ahead for me. That is my preer. The book
(34:14):
is a certain level of hope being reignited for readers.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Wow, thank you, Thank you for sharing. Guys.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
Go order Fighting for Our Friendships available where on all platforms,
all major platforms where books are sold as well. Definitely
make sure that she goes subscribe to our podcast friend
for it. She's a pro. Okay, she is a pro
at podcasting. Thank you so much. Go follow her on Instagram.
Say your handles for them, Danielle, so they know where
to find you.
Speaker 3 (34:43):
Yeah, everything lives at Betterfemale friendships dot Com. So that's
where we can get connected with the podcast an instant
and all the things better Female Friendships dot Com and
I look forward to seeing everybody over there.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
I love it, guys.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
Thank you for tuning in to this episode of the
KAS podcast. Definitely make sure that you likes, share, and
subscribe until next week, Be blessed.
Hey guys, Welcome to the k Watts Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I'm your host Kashawn Watson, but you know me as
Ka Watts, and I'm super excited that you decided to
join me today. This is the podcast where we chat
about the questions we ask God, we share testimonials about healing, wholeness,
and forgiveness. It doesn't matter what season of life you
may be in or the journey you may be currently
walking through. I know that this podcast will bless you.
(00:27):
At the end of the episode. If you feel like
that this has done exactly what I said, definitely hit
that like button, comment, share, don't forget to subscribe again.
Welcome to the KWATS podcast. Hey guys, welcome to an
all new episode of the k WATS podcast. I'm your
host Kashawn Watson, but you know me as Kay Watson.
I am personally super excited about this week. Skutshaw, I
(00:51):
have friend expert and educator I'm talking about host a
friend for it podcast and the author of Fighting for
Our Friendships is Danielle Bear Jackson.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
Thank you for having me, Thank you for the gracious welcome.
I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Okay, so I really want to jump right into all
the juice, but before I do, Before I do, I
wanted to first tell you how proud I am of
how you've been able to Stewart not just this season,
but previous seasons, because when we go through I feel
(01:28):
like the origin story of not just fighting for your
friendships the book. I love the fact that it started
with you being a high school teacher. I love that
so much because I think that that speaks to so
many people that no season is ever wasted. So for
you to really Stuart this season of being a confidant
(01:49):
and an advisor mentor for young women and then really
seeing like, hey, I'm gonna really really Stuart this season,
but I'm going to use what I learned in this
season to even go forward in the next season. So
I just want to say how proud I am of
you that you just didn't waste a thing, did you? Not?
Speaker 1 (02:08):
A thing? That is really sweet?
Speaker 3 (02:10):
And I appreciate you saying that and calling that out,
and you know, as you're speaking, it's it's so funny
because I'm thinking about those moments when I was tempted
to transition out of education and the thing that kept
me a little bit longer than I should have said
it was. I kept saying, I can't do anything else.
And a lot of teachers feel that way. Like I'm
(02:31):
a teacher, you know, and I still feel that way
in my blood. That's who I am. But I just
was like, I I don't know how to survive in
the real world. You know, I'm a classroom girl.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
You're thriving, so you know, it's just so beautiful, I
think to see how God orchestrates things, because there were
certain skills, experiences.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
Connections that could only have been developed in that space
that I was surprised to learn would be kind of
the bedrock of what I do outside the classroom. So
it all worked together.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Yes, yes, so okay, I mean I know that you've
been getting this. I've been watching I've been watching your
journey of the launch of the book, but just just
the progression of you really leaning into the science and
the art of conflict and communication of women relationships, right,
(03:22):
And I first want to start by saying, like, why
are we this complex?
Speaker 1 (03:32):
I know, like it's as soon as.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
You think that you got one aspect of it, figure
it out. And those that haven't read the book, I
definitely encourage you to go read the book.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
There's so many layers to this.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
This is something that every single woman can identify with,
every single young person, every single young adult. So I really,
once you started getting into the nuts and bolts of research,
did you just have one of those moments where you
were like, God, what you made us?
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Why are we?
Speaker 2 (04:05):
What are these complexities? Are they self inflicting? Do you
think that's just who we are? Like as a bedrock
of it, like this is just how we are. We
just need to figure out how to navigate that. Or
is this one of those things where it's kind of like, no,
we've kind of self inflicted some of these things and
now we're kind of like navigating the fruit of what
we've inflicted on ourselves to be able just to have
(04:29):
healthy friendships with one another.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Like I'm very curious, Like that was a long winded question,
but you get what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (04:35):
Yeah, I know, I totally know what you're saying. And
that's like the age old question is like why are
women the way that they are? And you know, there's
one point in the book where I talk about how
people often say it's just so complicated, it's so complicated
and I tell the story of looking up that word
one day and just being like, what does that mean?
And as a former English teacher, I'm always like, what's
the definition, you know? And it said the intersection of
(04:56):
many parts. And that is what our friendships involved. It's
the intersection of many parts. So unlike men's friendships, you know,
and those can definitely be deep and meaningful as well,
But on average, women's friendships are deeper because we're not compartmentalizing.
You're not just my mom friend. You're my spiritual friend
and my gym friend, and you're helping me raise my
(05:18):
kids and we're goal planning together. You were so deeply
integrated into my life and so natural. That's going to
make things a bit trickier because we're a little more
tied up with one another and there's stuff that comes
with that. And you know, when it comes to women
and all of our unusual complexities, I think all the
things that make us so special and beautiful in our
(05:39):
powers and things like that, there's two sides to everything, right,
So for example, we often say, you know, as a woman,
we have that sixth sense, like just trust me, I
sense it. I can pick it up right and there's
so much good that comes out of sensing, oh there's
something more here, right, we have that we're in touch
in that way, but does that, you know, become a
barrier where we think we're reading subtext and what a
(06:02):
friend said or did and it's like, no, there's no subtext,
Like what happened is what happened. But we're like, yeah,
but what did that mean? Though? And maybe in this
situation there there was no what it meant, you know.
So I just think, you know, there are so many
things that are superpowers, but they are great when harnessed
the right way. And so the hope was that with
the book Fighting for Our Friendships, we can help to
(06:23):
illuminate some of the complexities and mechanics of women's friendships.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
So good when you said it was a science and art,
you weren't a lion, sis, were you?
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Because it's the mechanics of it all.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
So I wanted to kind of like touch on a
couple of things that really stood out to me, not
only just in the book, but what I've kind of
like seeing, like I feel like being a woman that's
now transitioning. I'm in my late thirties, like going through
friendships in my twenties was a whole different shebang. Then
I think walking through friendships in your thirties is a
(06:59):
whole different French chebang.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Being married and all.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Of those factors, Right, So two things kind of like
really stood out to me and I would love to
kind of get your feedback on it. We're in this culture,
at least online and socially. I really feel like probably
in the last couple of years to where the buzzword
has been community, right. So many women are looking for
the girl group, they're looking for their tribe, they're looking
(07:23):
for their travel buddies, they're looking for their Bible study buddies.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Like, there's a lot of these big.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Buzzwords on community and something that we've seen just really
thriving and growing and we can see what the community
looks like. My question is is that do we or
have we buzzed or subbed in the word community for
clicks right? And if so, our clicks healthy? Are Is
(07:52):
there a such thing as a good click? I'm just
very curious if that's something that you've seen in your research,
and what's your thoughts on that you're asking?
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Okay, so many things you're asking such thoughtful questions. That's
such a great question. I have so many thoughts. Secondly,
I had to gather myself because you said you're in
your late thirties, and I just thought, is your late thirties.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
In the room with us?
Speaker 3 (08:11):
Where?
Speaker 2 (08:11):
No, ma'am, I turn thirty nine on Friday. Okay, wow, wow,
I love you so much. Just drop the skincare routine immediately.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
Okay, so after the show, why don't you drop that
in the show notes?
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Oh that's good.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
Yeah, look great, you're beautiful. Thank you. It surprised me.
That's that's awesome. Okay, this is such a great conversation
with like the community thing. You're absolutely right. I have
very strong feelings about that being kind of a commodified word.
Even brands are using it. We want community, Like.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Okay, what do we all? What are we saying? Right?
Speaker 3 (08:47):
And then clicks. That's a terrific that's a terrific point.
Here's my thought. And people might feel differently, but here's
what I'm telling you from a person who studies this
and has had several women in trust me with with
certain friendship things over the years. A click is it
speaks to a certain exclusivity. This is our group. There
(09:07):
are people funneling in and out. We have a certain language,
we have a shared culture. This is the exclusive group.
I understand that you naturally fall into spaces where it's
like wha. We have a rhythm, we have you know,
a flow, we have a certain chemistry. These are my people.
Totally get that there's safety there, there's a level of
trust there because these are my exclusive people. We've established
(09:28):
trust in relationship makes total sense. The problem becomes when
this group is the extent of my community. The problem
comes when we see somebody in need and we're shunning
people who could use support and access because you're not
in the group. And so my efforts, my attention, my care,
my love is exclusive to this group. I believe that's
(09:51):
where it becomes dangerous and unhelpful. So I think those
are the questions we need to ask ourselves. It's cool
to have people who like your people, your inner circle,
and you need that right, but also you know when
your group, when your group is keeping you sucked into
the group, and it's not encouraging or edifying the way
(10:13):
you show up in the world. We have a problem
because I was not creating and designed to just be
here for the inner group. I was also created to serve,
plug in share resources with the world. And so if
my group is keeping me sucked in and absorbed here,
I'm missing the rest of my mission because while you
are my people, this is not the extent of my territory.
(10:35):
And so I think we need to be clear about clicks.
There's comfort, familiarity, and trust, but are we keeping each
other from the other people we're meant to engage with, serve, edify,
and build up. Maybe that is kind of the difference.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
That's so good, And I think that kind of like
goes into some things that you were discussing in the book,
which one of the questions I have for you is
that is it possible? Well, is it a real thing
where a friend can be stolen? Right? The fear of
the fear of losing a friendship, the fear of that
people are coming in and being a little friendship snatchers,
(11:13):
Like is this a real thing that I'm who's the friendship?
I just snatching them up?
Speaker 3 (11:20):
Like?
Speaker 1 (11:20):
Are there people to where that's what's happening? We have
little friendship snatchers going on?
Speaker 2 (11:25):
And if so, are we creating these walls because we're
afraid that people are just going to come up and
just start scooping our friends up. So I'm curious to know, like,
are we creating communities and maybe like our own personalized
groups as a safety barrier because we're afraid that friendships
can be stolen. We're afraid that that friends can go
(11:48):
away someone else can just snatch.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Is that a thing?
Speaker 3 (11:51):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (11:51):
You know.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
So we serve a four hundred women and we ask
them about their experiences with friendship coaching and friendship introductions
and friendship overlap meaning my friends are friends, just just
trying to gauge her attitude with all these different things,
and fifty percent of women did say, yes, this has
really happened to me. And this is why I really
enjoy leaning in, like exploring what the research has to
(12:12):
say about these things, because I don't want to give
my opinion. I don't want to lead with my experiences
because for me personally, I don't think to my knowledge,
I don't think I've ever had a friend like taken away.
But it's not about my experience. The research acknowledges that
this does in fact happen. That you have people who
are maybe introduced to a friend of yours and for
(12:33):
whatever reason. It could be because she's naturally a competitive person,
so she sees everything as an opportunity to excel past
other people. So it could be that she's competitive and
wants to take her It could be that she really
really likes this new friend and wants her attention exclusively,
and you become kind of like a threat to her
getting to know her, so she wants her to herself.
There are so many, so many reasons why a person
might be motivated to do that, but it is real.
(12:55):
It does happen. I think because it's a real thing.
I don't know how frequent, but because it's a real thing.
You do have women who do not even want to
introduce their friends for fear that what if they get
along better then they get with me, or what if
they and those are all valid. I do think that
you know, those people either have had happen before, so
naturally they're less inclined to do it. They are probably
(13:18):
more anxious generally, where you are operating in fear, I'm
not going to do this because what if I get
left behind? What if I get abandoned? If I So,
a person who's generally more anxious might feel that way
and I've noticed that people who are more extroverted are
more open to it because that's just how they operate.
They know all the people and they feel like the
more the marria, so maybe they're more comfortable. And then
(13:39):
the last thing I'll say is it sometimes depends on
the person, because maybe you're all for friendship sharing, but
when it comes to like your best like your girl,
they're now some people because I don't need anybody like
coming up to my car, you know. So we have
different factors that influence the degree to which we're comfortable sharing.
I'll say this, does that happen? Yes, And you have
(14:01):
to be comfortable like confronting and calling out like okay,
what's going on because I've seen y'all a hanging out.
Love that for you, but I would also love to
join sometimes like there's ways I can like say it,
but I will say. One contradiction I've noticed is women
expressing a desire for a friendship group and they want
their click and their people their community, but simultaneously are like,
I don't want my friends to know each other. To me,
(14:22):
those two things don't go together. At some point, a
group fourm because somebody brought their people together in a
room and let them just kind of do their thing.
And so I think in healthy friendships, it's a beautiful
thing to introduce people to each other, but it does
require certain security and feeling like, I know I offer
something unique I can't be replaced. I see it as
(14:44):
a flex to bring my people together and be like, yeah,
I coordinated that they hit it off, and I did that.
You know. So we have different attitudes, but you know,
that's one of the main ways people form connections is
through other people. So somebody's got to be comfortable doing it.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Listen, So basically, what's your sayings that we all need
therapy before interacting? I didn't say all I did. Yeah, okay,
so wow, this is so good. All right, Well that
kind of like leads me into what is what would
you say is the right etiquette. Let's say that that
(15:21):
does happen. Let's say that you have a group of friends.
You invite everyone over.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
It's a great mixer, it's a girl's night.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
You have one of your friends that you've known for
let's say about five years, right, you guys have a
pretty solid friendship, and then a new person comes in, Right,
And what happens.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
If you like her more?
Speaker 3 (15:41):
Right? Interesting because in that same survey we ask women,
have you ever been have you ever had a friend
introduced you to one of her friend and found yourself
really liking that new friend? Eighty percent said yes. Really
sense because if you like your friend, she probably as
people in her network who were all so funny and
(16:03):
they have the same interest, so that you're naturally being like, oh,
she's cool too, right, yeah, so it makes sense. So
this it's interesting that word etiquete because I don't know
what the proper etiquette is, but I do know that
friendships are the most ambiguous relationship you'll ever have. What
are the rules? I don't know what do you expect
to me? You are different. There's so much gray area
(16:24):
compared to other relationships where we know how this works
as a mom, I know what our role and responsibility is.
As an employee, I know what the terms and conditions
are like, we know how this works. With friendship a
varies person in person. There's a lot of great area
and expectations. With that being said, if you find yourself
in a situation where you're not sure, like okay, should
they be able to hang out? I feel like we
(16:46):
can we hang out orre she gonna see say it
to say it, and let's minimize that right now, Hey,
you know, I really clicked with your friend so and
so the other day. She seems amazing, and I just
was thinking the three of us, you know, could go
like maybe I'm starting with the three of us right,
or you know, saying like, hey, we've been hitting it
off on in the DMS and we were going to
(17:07):
go to this contract that we both really love on Friday.
That's okay, right, because I don't want to step on
your toes, but I also like really enjoy her, you know,
And to say it, now, this other person's feelings are
their own. I'm not responsible for them, but at least
there can't be accusations of misleading, stealing. I told you upfront,
we enjoy each other. And again, even that gets tricky
(17:28):
because some people feel like they don't owe that that,
like I don't owe you asking permission.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
We hang out who we want to hang out with exactly.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
I think the fact that there is so much chatter
signals to me like, oh, I guess we need to
talk about this because we're all walking around here with
different ideas of what's appropriate I guess we need to
put it on the table.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
Wow, this is like so good.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
And so when I was reading your book, there was
where I think that you said as you were kind
of like going through certain of the recent search that
it was one of those things where you have moments
of like, let's really get down to the root of
what the issue is. Like, you know, we can bring
up all of these other things of issues that we're
(18:14):
having with a friend, but things like you talk about
like keywords. But one of the things that you said
that really stood out to me there was a word
that you used in regards of abandonment, the fear of abandonment.
And I think about how those things and rather that
is like a childhood trigger or trauma, and how these
things kind of like resurface in our young adults or
in our grown woman adult relationships, to where the fear
(18:38):
of that one of our friends are going to abandon
us because they think that there's something better on the
other side, or the fear that our friends are going
to abandon us because what happens if we get into
our first like big fight and blow up and it
just doesn't go well right, It's that it's that level
of opening yourself up to potentially be hurt, but then
also opening yourself up to where you may have to
mature in this area, which I think is so big
(19:02):
for us. And I think it's a conversation that there
hasn't been enough of. And I'm so glad that you
are having it. I'm so glad that you're providing resources
and research for us to be able to see like, Hey,
this isn't just in your head. This just isn't happening
in you're a friend group in your city, because some
people think demographically, oh, this just happens a lot in
this particular place, right, but this is happening with us
(19:26):
in totality, like this is what's going on. One of
the things that I if I'm gonna be honest, is
that I felt like I needed to first of all,
apologize to all the people that I was friends with
from the ages of thirteen, probably all the way up
into thirty.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
I'm not gonna lie, there was Danielle you laugh.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
I think I know there is a lumpsum apology that
needs to go out because when I was going through
the love obsessed friend, the controlling friend, the jealous friend,
the newly changed the clingy friend, the negative friend. At
some stage or point in my life, in a span
of probably a solid fifteen years, I was one or
(20:10):
more of these kinds of friends. And I think that
there is this level that sometimes we are able to
point out the negative friend and someone else, and it's
very hard for us to be like, oh, my goodness,
I'm the negative friend right now in this friendship. I'm
the negative I'm the jealous friend in this group. And
(20:31):
I found that in reading your book that it was
helping me to be able to be accountable. And I
hope as other people are reading it and maybe that's
something that is happening, to be accountable, but then also
to be able to be honest and to repent and
to apologize for people that I hurt, not really having
(20:52):
the language at the time. Sometimes we don't have the
language to be like, you know, I'm a little controlling.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
I like things my way.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
I like to have the friendship my way, and if
it doesn't go my way, then I may think that
person isn't a good friend. But really I just had
control issues. So I appreciated the research. I appreciated the
fact that this book kind of like touches on so
many things. Another question that I have that I thought
was pretty interesting is that we talk about what happens
(21:25):
when you want to go from being an acquaintance to
a friend, Like I think I even saw that to
it posed this question like have you ever found yourself
to where you were always you're kind of like the friend,
but not like the good good friends, So maybe you're
just a really good acquaintance, right? Is it okay sometimes
to be okay with being an acquaintance in a relationship?
(21:48):
Should we always strive to have deep, intimate, meaningful friendships
with every woman that we meet along the way, or
is it okay to be like, hey, I'm not her bestie,
she's not mine. We grab a coffee every once in
a while, we check in, we're social media besties, but
(22:09):
that's the extent of our friendship. Or is that signs
or red flags to where maybe there is something that
I need to do a little bit digging on, like
why am I unable to do that? I'm very curious
and what you think about that? Yeah, so according to
the research, we need everything you just described. There's a
framework by a social scientist kas Lee Kilum. She called
(22:33):
it the five to three one framework two know if
you have good social health, because that is a domain
of health now. And the idea is that people who
are happy and healthy, they have lots of friends, They're
deeply connected. And so to achieve that you should have
these things. You should be socializing with five different groups
or types of people a week. So that could mean
(22:56):
a neighbor, a boyfriend, a coworker. Already, that's three, right,
I know you in like different contexts, So five different
social contexts a week. You should be maintaining three good
relationships and having I believe it's one hour of social
interaction a day for good social health. The reason I
(23:16):
bring that up is because it underscores a bigger truth,
which is relational diversity is so important.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
I like the idea of a bestie. There's something, there's
a romantic element about it. There's this one girl. She
gets me, she's my everything, she's all my things. That's
really nice. I've had that at a certain season in
my life. I've had my girl. I was her girl. Right,
But you know, ask yourself, can you get all the
things you need from the collective instead of the singular?
You need to be intellectually challenged. You need spiritual support
(23:45):
and things like that. You need a person who can
like share practical resources with you, right, Like I have
some mom friends, and the extent of it is, you know,
we share. Oh did you know that the program you
know registers on Thursday?
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Oh? I didn't know.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
The registration opens on Thursday for the kids Lego club. Like,
I mean, but I have that mom. She's always put
me on and that's kind.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Of what it is.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Would you consider that a deep friendship or would you
consider that would not?
Speaker 1 (24:10):
I would consider that.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
I would say like, oh, that's a mom friend but
it's very surface level and I think I'm okay with
it because I have deep friendships elsewhere. So I could see.
If all of your friendships have to be deep, I
think that says something. And I could see if you're like, no,
I want them all to kind of just be chill.
I think that says something too. We need that texture
in our lives because I do need people who I'm
accountable to. They know me a little more intimately, I'm
(24:33):
responsible for them in a way, them for me whatever.
But we also need what sociologists refer to as weak ties,
meaning people who it's not that deep but we know
each other. It's a mood boost whenever I see you,
and so we have to be able to release the
hope that everyone we meet will turn into deep friendship,
because I do think it sets us up for disappointment.
You also practically can't do that with everyone. The research
(24:56):
finds that you only have the cognitive capacity to maintain
three to five ultra close relationships at a time. So
for me to expect that I can go deep with
these fifteen girls, it's just very ambitious. And I wonder
if we sacrifice depth for breath when we have that
as the goal.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Oh, that's good.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
So I'm curious, you know, the podcast is the place
where we share the questions that we ask God. I'm
curious during the time that you started this research to
where you knew that this was something that you needed
to dive into. From leading up to all of the
press and the interviews and the book tour and all
of the things. What has been the thing that has
(25:41):
shocked you the most throughout the process In the last
couple of years, something that.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
Has surprised me most about this work is, Oh, I've
actually never said this a lot before.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Exclusive Exclusive, Like.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
There are lots of things in the research that surprised me, like,
oh my god, I didn't know that that's so interesting.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
But I would say.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
Personally, is you know it studying new things and hearing
women share and things like this, it surfaces to me
areas where I need to not just improve, but areas
I need to repent. Whether it's with ego, apologizing to friends,
(26:33):
pride thinking I know more than somebody else, or this
friend she judgment. Oh god, she's making those parenting choices.
She's gonna do that with her job. Girl, Like you're
gonna date him? I mean really, like is that a
spirit of judging? Like judging your decisions? So it's exposed
to me doing this work and being so deeply entrenched
(26:55):
in the details of women's friendship, talking about it all
the time, showing me areas we're like, oh no, no,
that's not okay. And so it's less about I want
to improve, but showing areas where I need to be
more repentant and turn away completely from certain behaviors. Because
that has given me the freedom to explore more and
(27:17):
to speak on it more. Because I did have a
sense of who am I to talk about this when
I first started and I've never wanted to hold myself
as the standards, so I never talk about my friends.
Not often, I don't talk about myself. But I felt
a very I always say imposter syndrome, But I thought,
who am I to lead this conversation? Because if people
(27:37):
knew some of the things I've said to people growing
up and saying the things I did, but you're able
to speak boldly in areas that you have been forgiven
for and repentant of, so I no longer feel shame
about those things. So I do feel like I can
take up space and have this conversation because I am
not the standard. If anything, the ugliness or the mess
(28:00):
of things that I've been through or things that I
have were my own doing. If anything, I hope that
where I'm speaking now shows hope that you can come
out of certain behaviors or negative mindsets or they say,
like scarcity mindset. You know, if I think my friend's
going to be taken, do I introduce her? Or if I,
(28:21):
you know, think that this new girl is going to
be likes more than me, do I? You say little
things to make people not think she's awesome, you know,
like all of that insecurity, those kinds of things were
very real parts of my life, you know, in high
school and early college, and so repenting of those behaviors
allows me more freedom and boldness to speak on it.
(28:41):
And I hope that that doesn't look like hypocrisy. I
hope it looks like Wow, then there's hope for me,
because if there's a genuine change of heart and mind,
maybe I can come out of these spaces where I
feel isolated, stuck, misunderstood, unwanted, where I find myself doing
ugly things because I'm not sure of myself. You mean,
(29:03):
it's possible to come out of this. Yes, So so
that's what's been unearthed for me in doing this work.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
So good, so so good.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
I love the fact that you had said the revelation
that you're not the standard. I haven't literally talking to
God about Lord, give me teach me how to test
the fruit gracefully that someone else has. Like I was
in a in a in a posture of like, I
(29:36):
know that we're supposed to test the fruit, and people
sayd you test test the spirit? You got to check
for that fruit and you see that all over the place,
and I really felt like, God, how do I test it? Gracefully,
because I haven't seen a good model of this. I
remember posing this question like I've seen it done harshly,
I've seen it done scarcely. I've seen it done, but
(29:58):
like I just didn't I feel like I had a
good model to know how to test the fruit of
another person graciously and literally as I'm asking this question,
the Lord comforted me. And then I've also convicted me
and let me know the model was never supposed to
be a person.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
It was my son that I sent.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
I sent you the model of someone who tested fruit gracefully,
and that's the model that you should follow anytime that
you are interacting with someone and you feel like something
don't seem right or I don't know about this particular person,
like is there something off in this?
Speaker 1 (30:40):
Really? I need to test the fruit, you know. And
it completely.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Radically changed my mind and my approach. But it also
convicted me for making myself and other people the standard
of how to test something, how to check something, how
to validate something. And that's why I had to do
the full apology to everyone for the times to where
I use myself as the model and the standard, because
(31:08):
that's just unfortunately we have been doing that. So I
love the fact about the repentance thing because that is real,
especially as we move forward really searching for healing and
wholeness when it comes to our fractured relationships or even
trying to understand the complexities of who we are as
women and how do we truly connect and sharpen one
another and move forward with one another.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
So I love this.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
But last question I have is like, what is the
hope that you really want people to get out of
fighting for our friendships? And has that hope changed from
the time when you first you know, maybe the hope
that you have when you first hit sin to publish
the book to where now being on the side of
(31:55):
promoting it and hearing people's testimonies or their responses, is
there different hope that you have when people read this book? Uh?
Speaker 3 (32:04):
You know. In twenty twenty, I had a TikTok go
virals when I got on TikTok and it went crazy
and I wasn't familiar at the time. I had just
jumped on and it was like a quick stitch video
to a girl asking about like what do you wish
you know in your twenties? And I said something about
like female friendships, you know, prioritizing them and then being
good for your health. That blew up, and there were
(32:28):
so thousands of comments of women saying, man, I wish
I had that, and I don't. I mean, just just
the little men thing what they wish they had in friendship.
And right there that night, it was two in the morning,
I was looking through all these comments and I took
out cheet of paper and I just was like writing
prayers for all these women. And I said, Lord, this
(32:51):
is in twenty twenty.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
I said, if you.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
Expand my platform, I will give it back to you.
If you grow this, if you let meet more women's
I promise you. And so it's crazy to see all
the things that happened, right, But my hope is still
the same that those women in the comments who are
feeling like it's too late for them, that they're too
far gone, that you know, I had so much trauma
in my life. I'm too. I'm not shaped for good
(33:20):
friendships or who believe all women are pet you can't
trust them women with a certain hardness and hopelessness. I
guess my prayer for them is that in reading the book,
they begin to see all that's available to them in friendship.
And I don't just mean making more friends, but in
(33:40):
the relationships you have, there's more available. It might be
on the other side of that hard talk you don't
want to have. It might be on the other side
of lovingly setting that boundary so friends know. It might
be on the other side of putting yourself out there.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (33:54):
But there's so much life left. There's so much more
available to you that you have not uncovered yet. There
are friends you haven't even met yet. And I hope
that women read the last page, close the book and
feel like, Okay, I'm so ready to receive all that
lies ahead for me. That is my preer. The book
(34:14):
is a certain level of hope being reignited for readers.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Wow, thank you, Thank you for sharing. Guys.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
Go order Fighting for Our Friendships available where on all platforms,
all major platforms where books are sold as well. Definitely
make sure that she goes subscribe to our podcast friend
for it. She's a pro. Okay, she is a pro
at podcasting. Thank you so much. Go follow her on Instagram.
Say your handles for them, Danielle, so they know where
to find you.
Speaker 3 (34:43):
Yeah, everything lives at Betterfemale friendships dot Com. So that's
where we can get connected with the podcast an instant
and all the things better Female Friendships dot Com and
I look forward to seeing everybody over there.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
I love it, guys.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
Thank you for tuning in to this episode of the
KAS podcast. Definitely make sure that you likes, share, and
subscribe until next week, Be blessed.
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