April 17, 2023 • 48 mins
On episode 107 Cambridge PhD candidate Alexandra Leonzini joins Andre Goulet and co-host Gennie Pimentel for a conversation exploring how music builds soft power and promotes national prestige, the DPRK opera's greatest hits, cultural diplomacy and the Cold War, how tourists serve as intermediaries in North Korea’s noraebang branding efforts and more.
Watch 'Where Are You, General?' at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCGkIwZa2UE
Watch 'Sea of Blood' at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quIl4qeEWog
This conversation was recorded on April 10th, 2023.
Support our work sharing Korean history and culture with an international audience at patreon.com/thekoreafile
Watch 'Where Are You, General?' at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCGkIwZa2UE
Watch 'Sea of Blood' at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quIl4qeEWog
This conversation was recorded on April 10th, 2023.
Support our work sharing Korean history and culture with an international audience at patreon.com/thekoreafile
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
You're listening to The Careophile. I'mAndre Lulet. The Careophile has been exploring
Korean society, culture and politics,and highlighting critical, independent voices you won't
find anywhere else since twenty fourteen.Find almost nine years of archived episodes,
including interviews with academics, activists,musicians, and more wherever you get your
podcasts, and you can support theshow at patreon dot com slash the Creophile.
(00:28):
On this episode, we're speaking withAlexandra Lionzini, a PhD candidate at
Cambridge in the United Kingdom who's currentlystudying North Korean music, postwar opera,
and cultural diplomacy in the Cold Warperiod. Assistant producer Jenny Dimantel is in
Toronto and Andre, Jenny, I'mexcited about this conversation. Why did you
decide to reach out to our guest, well, Andrea, I met Alexandra
(00:51):
in the summer of last year andlearned so many things about her and got
really excited about her interests, andI wanted to follow up with her again
because I think her sphere of knowledgeis really interesting and valuable, and I
know it'll make for great material forour show. In this conversation, we'll
be discussing a pretty fascinating topic,Cold War cultural diplomacy, with a focus
(01:11):
on the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, and a little later we'll be talking
about North Korean music and opera.Alexandra at Linzini is in Cambridge. Alexandra,
thank you for joining us. Thankyou so much for having me.
It really is very exciting too.Yeah, be invited, and I'm always
happy to talk about this with ifwhoever will listen. So I am very
grateful to yeah, have a platformto share with everybody today. Last episode
(01:36):
we also explored North Korea, talkingwith Soul based scholar Elizabeth Campbell about the
role of women in North Korea historicallyand politically, and we also talked a
little bit about film and food.So it's going to be fun to build
on that in this conversation. Butbefore we dive into your research, let's
introduce you to the audience really quickly. You've been studying and researching cultural diplomacy
(01:57):
during the Cold War, North Koreanmusic and opera for years. Can you
tell us a little bit about howdid you get into these super interesting but
like kind of niche fields of study. What inspired your interest in these topics.
To be honest, it's quite anembarrassing story. Basically, I'm Australian
(02:21):
and I moved to Germany to basicallybecome an opera singer when I was twenty
two and I needed a visa tostay in Europe a bit longer, and
realized that the easiest way to dothat was essentially to do a master's.
I could have Craigslist, Craigs listeda husband. I did try, and
(02:44):
Yeah basically decided that a masters wasprobably just a lot less emotionally damaging.
So Yeah, decided to do amasters in global history and had the option
to do a fellowship in Paris.And while I was in Paris, I
was supposed to be writing a laborhistory of opera singers, so I was
(03:06):
interested in nineteenth century opera singers andessentially how they negotiated their contracts. Unfortunately,
however, when I got to theParis Opera House, I discovered that
all of my contracts from the periodI was looking at had burnt down in
a file in the middle of thenineteenth century. And as a result of
that, I got a bit desperateand started basically googling a context any situation
(03:31):
in the world where singers, whereperformers were considered as workers as opposed to
artisans. And I ended up comingacross a book called on the Art of
Opera by Kim Jong Ill and Iread it and I thought, my goodness,
this is wild. So I wenton YouTube, looked at the operas
and was pretty impressed by them.I had no idea at this point where
(03:55):
North Korea was being a product ofthe Australian edgucation system geography, it's not
really our strong not really our strongsuit. So yeah, I only knew
about North Korea because of Team America. And yeah, I was talking about
it to a guy I had abit of a crush on, and he
(04:16):
joked about going to North Korea andme, having absolutely no game and severe
ADHD booked a one way trip toNorth Korea basically to impress this guy.
Morla story is, I got toNorth Korea, realized that everything that had
been written about North Korean music wascompletely wrong, and decided that that would
(04:38):
be my new thing. Okay,I wasn't expecting your answer to include a
labor history of opera. That's amazing. So for some contacts, the Cold
War was a time when post colonialnations were put in a position to kind
of make a choice between the FirstWorld capitalism and the second World the Soviet
Union's sphere of influence and political forcesin these newly independent nations often look to
(05:01):
communism as a way to protect themselvesor arm themselves against imperialism and Western colonial
dominance. And during this time,a lot of communist nations, including North
Korea, started exporting the idea ofcommunist revolution as a way to fight back
against these capitalist forces. And oftenthese exports were cultural and in every way
(05:24):
that that entails. So what iscultural diplomacy and what makes it so interesting
in the Cold War context? Yeah, so cultural diplomacy is essentially the use
of culture, be it through music, be it film, be it through
art, through architecture. In somecases, you know, to use elements
(05:48):
of culture to essentially direct, orshall we say, manipulate, how are
the nations of view you as anation state. It's kind of a form
of soft power, so it meansthat it's it's rather coercive. It's a
very gentle approach, you know,in comparison to you know, what one
(06:08):
could say is hard power, theuse of weaponry, the use of um
yeah, guns and threats to influencehow nations view you, um and yeah.
In a Cold War context. It'sparticularly interesting because you have this this
division of the world so to speak. So you mentioned the first World being
(06:30):
you know, the capitalist nations.You mentioned the Second World, which we
see as the Soviet Union, youknow, the developing world we can say
in one case, and so thatwould be more like the Soviet Union in
China during this period. What I'mparticularly interested in is the third world,
which which are the decolonizing nations,and North Korea falls into that, um,
(06:54):
North Korea, many of the nationsof Africa, or you know,
emerging nations of Africa, many ofthe emerging nations of South America and Southeast
Asia in particular. These were nationsthat didn't fall neatly into the kind of
First World or Second World categories,and there was a lot of pressure placed
(07:15):
on these nations from both you know, the West so to speak, and
the communist block are for influence,particularly you know, the African nations.
You know, both the First Worlddown the Second World wanted to exert their
influence on this area because there wasa significant amount of material resources to be
(07:38):
gained. I mean, and soeverybody wanted to create relationships with them.
During the Cold War, though,you have what's known as the non alignment
movement, so nations which don't alignwith either you know, the East or
the West, so to speak.North Korea fancies itself part of this non
alignment movement because North Korea, likemany of the nations in this block,
(08:03):
did align themselves with communist ideas,but they embrace communism as a form of
well, yeah, they embraced communismas a means of essentially fighting for national
independence. So a lot of thiswas inspired more for the anti imperialist messaging
(08:24):
of communism rather necessarily than the kindof class warfare element of it, particularly
because we didn't have well, yeah, class as it was understood in Korea
at this time was not as classwas understood in Russia, for example.
So yeah, it was really moreabout, you know, the dissemination of
(08:45):
anti imperialist ideas. And so thisis what we see in the cultural products
of North Korea at this time.So what were some of the key North
Korean cultural exports and imports at thattime? So, you know, the
time that I studied the nineteen seventies, specifically from we have the Korean War,
for example, you know in betweennineteen nineteen fifty and nineteen fifty three,
(09:07):
and you know, at this timethe sort of materials at North Korea
are producing. They're writing books,they're putting in newspaper advertisements. They're basically
trying to align. Yeah, they'retrying to highlight themselves as shall we say,
a victim of global imperialism, whichis directed primarily at the decolonizing world.
(09:28):
By the nineteen sixties, they're producingfilms which they want to be exhibited
at international film festivals, and manyof these films, you know, highlight
the violence of Japanese colonialism in Korea. And then in the nineteen seventies,
(09:48):
which is the period I'm looking at, North Korea are producing music dramas that
are developed specifically for international audiences inmind. So we have the development of
opera. The opera troops do travel, but they don't travel as widely as
they could because in nineteen seventy onethere is a plane crash and almost the
(10:13):
entire Sea of Blood opera company istaken out. And as a result of
this, the North Koreans are morelikely to send images of their operas overseas,
so they produce a lot of magazinesfor international audiences. So these are
magazines. For example, one iscalled the English title is Korean Women,
(10:37):
and this is published in over tendifferent languages, essentially to promote kind of
cultural innovations in North Korea. Theyoften include big glossy photos of the stage
productions. They include articles which discuss, you know, the plots of the
operas and the yeah, the reactionof audiences within Pyongyang itself, and they
(11:05):
really do what they can to kindof promote the notion that North Korea is
a nation of culture and yeah.In this way essentially try and push the
notion that North Korea is a developednation, it's a civilized nation, primarily
because what North Korea wants is recognitionas a legitimate nation by the United Nations.
(11:28):
At this point, it is notconsidered a legitimate nation. South Korea
at this point is considered the trueKorean nation state, and so North Korea
is basically just seeking recognition within itsown right essentially. Okay, two things
from your research, do you seeNorth Korea as having implemented a successful strategy
(11:50):
in building soft power and in promotingnational prestige? In that period, And
what do you see as gains orlosses made by the DPRK terms of cultural
dialogue and in terms of exchange duringthe Cold War, Well, the Cold
War itself, it does change throughoutyou know as the the nineteen eighties,
(12:11):
UM, you know, plays onthings do change quite dramatically for North Korea.
UM. But I would say,yeah, like in general, North
Korea did they work quite successful inbuilding these relationships. You know even today,
Um, North Korea has a verygood reputation amongst many of many people
(12:31):
from these you know, former postcolonial nations to the extent where we have
active you know, Dutch study groupsin Nigeria, in Angola, in Benin,
um, you know, many nationswhere North Korea were able to export
cultural products. UM. You knowthere are people who still very much support
(12:54):
North Korea's worldview and will continue todo so despite internet national sanctions. So
that alone is proof that this wasvery successful. UM. You know,
even if we if we look inAfrica and the monthrom Day Overseas Project company,
(13:16):
basically it's the the it was awing of the month from Day art
troop that essentially produced memorials. Imean Angola had canceled a three hundred million
dollar project with them. Only afterthe months from day overseas project came under
international sanctions, and that only happenedin about twenty nineteen, I believe.
(13:39):
So as a strategy, it's beenvery, very successful for them. Of
course, this is like you know, swings and roundabouts in terms of gains
and losses. Well, unfortunately NorthKorea, we're about as subtle as a
brick to the face when it cameto their their intense shall we say,
so, you know, an interestingquestion to ask about this is always what's
(14:03):
the difference between you know, diplomacyand propaganda, cultural diplomacy and propaganda.
So North Korea's attempts to you know, or what North kore perceived as cultural
diplomacy was perceived in the West aspropaganda. And this is something that we
see in newspaper advertisements that they tookout in for example, the New York
(14:30):
Times, they would take out wholepage advertisements which basically talked about the wonderful
teachings of Kim Il sung. Thisdidn't play very well to American audiences.
I think we can understand, andit's closer to home. In the present
day, North Korea has been amajor funder of Jacobin Magazine and the Democratic
Socialists of America, which is amazing. I have the double sized duche Jacobin
(14:54):
issue. I'm a coffee table rightnow. I like it a lot.
Oh yeah, Jenny, go ahead, Yeah, Hi, Hi, Alexandra,
A system for the cer. Jennyhere. So, I from what
I heard from your last response,it seems like gaining cultural capital and exchanging
cultural ideas in the context of thechanging cold world marketplace had definitely had an
(15:16):
influence on current day, the currentday system, and current day North Korea.
Do you think that that is true? Also, can you maybe speak
on the state's use of soft powerin today's contemporary era aka the kimdong and
era. Yeah, so yeah,I think, yeah, you're You're very
(15:37):
right. It's had a considerable effecton North Korea today. I mean,
I think what's interesting about a lotof the North Korean I mean, particularly
the music that I study, Sowe're looking at what's essentially classical music in
North Korea is very very Western.And when I say western, I mean
(16:00):
uses Western musical language almost exclusively.You know, to a Western listener,
it's completely understandable, and there arediscussions that I had. There's a North
Korean journal called Choten Normark North KoreanMusic that runs until nineteen sixty eight.
It runs between nineteen fifty five andnineteen sixty eight, and in this journal,
(16:26):
the practitioners of music at the timeare discussing what the music of the
Democratic People's Republic of Korea should belike. You know, they recognize that
they have this power to shape it, and it seems from the get go
they're wanting a music that is comprehensibleto the world. They want it to
be international. And you know,when we talk about successful kind of cultural
(16:51):
exchange, something that this requires isa common language. And Korean wasn't a
language that many other nations spoke.But one thing that a lot of nations
that North Korea were targeting did speak. You know what language they did speak
was the language of Western art music. A lot of the former colonies had
(17:15):
been inculturated in Western musical language bytheir colonizers hymns. Of course, the
Church did a fabulous job of spreadingWestern musical language through the use of Himnity.
So it was a means of communication. You know, music could be
used to communicate with nations in away that language couldn't necessarily and so this
(17:41):
is something that has affected North Koreatoday because this is now the kind of
musical voice of North Korea, somethingthat's heavily tinged in Western music. And
we see this as well, youknow, in the Kim Jongani era.
Today, soft power is less effectivebecause you have significant actions imposed by the
(18:03):
United Nations. So you know,the Nation States themselves are not going to
be you know, as sympathetic,shall we say, to North Korea if
they are smaller nations, because thereare consequences in the United Nations for you
know, dealing with North Korea insuch a way that being said, I
mean, if we look at,for example, the performance of North Korean
(18:27):
art troops in South Korea during thepyong Chang Olympics, there was a you
know, an attempt there to showcasewhat is modern North Korean pop music,
which you know has been touched byHalleu. There are elements you know,
South Korean pop music too that now, so yeah, it was another means
(18:48):
by which North Korea was trying topush forward a particular narrative of itself to
an international audience, and one thatwas very curious about itself. So you
know, there is still very muchan understanding that music, you know,
plays can play a significant role inyeah, in shaping how people view the
state today. M Yeah, Itotally get that about music being a kind
(19:14):
of common language. Photography was alsokind of used in this next example that
I found of North Korean cultural diplomacy. There was a photo exhibit that opened
in New York in March twenty twelvecalled Window on North Korea, and the
exhibit was a collaboration between the AssociatedPress and an American news agency and the
(19:37):
Korean Central News Agency who are basedin the DPREK, and they displayed photos
of North Korea with the intent tofind common ground, breakdown barriers, and
to try and trigger a sort ofsense of empathy for its American audience,
since the photos would offer a rareglimpse into the daily lives of North Korean
(19:59):
citizens. And while some saw thisas a genuine effort by the DPRK to
culturally engage with the US, otherswere more a little more critical. According
to some sources, these exchanges havebeen rather one sided, benefiting the North
Korean regime and the prestige of thecult of personality back home and have been
(20:21):
used to distract or dupe the otherside when it comes to building trust or
working out differences. So my questionis, how can North Korea, whose
national integrity relies on very strict ideologicalbeliefs such as jittin self reliance that are
by definition in opposition to anything thatis foreign, how can they participate in
(20:45):
international activities like cultural diplomacy. Isthere any right or wrong way for them
to do this? This is abig question. So yeah, the idea
that is like, you know,this this doctrine of self reliance is opposed
to anything foreign. Um, isperhaps an overstatement. The the fact is
(21:11):
that on paper, ducha is youknow, opposed to anything being imposed upon
North Korea? Right? Um?But there's nothing against them embracing international you
know, foreign influencers, shall wesay so? The Yeah, the the
(21:32):
the notion of kind of this ideaof cultural imperialism that you know, there
has to be a McDonald's in everycountry, this sort of idea North Korea
would impose, you know, emphatically. If they, however, decide to
open a McDonald's, that is okay, um, because they are essentially um,
you know, choosing to do so. So yeah, I think um
(21:57):
ducha kind of as a doctor isvery Yeah, it's it's very blah as
in it can be used to justifya whole lot of things. But at
the same time there's there's a lotof loopholes in it. The question though
about how North Korea kind of engagesin cultural diplomacy right or wrong, and
you know, there are valid criticisms, shall we say, of the efforts
(22:25):
that the North Korean government itself kindof take to yeah, again shape the
view that the outside world has ofit. I'm personally of the opinion that
you know, these sorts of kindof cultural exchanges, the the photo exhibition
in New York, for example,are largely positive, mainly because you know,
(22:49):
if anything, it humanizes the peopleof North Korea in a way that
I think that media in the USdoesn't necessarily. You know, the fact
of the matter is, you know, like their government or not, it's
still a nation of at least thirtymillion people, many of whom you know,
have very little say in what goeson. And you know, when
(23:11):
people talk about North Korea and NorthKoreans, there's particularly in the American context,
there is often a dehumanization or acomplete unwillingness to recognize the humanity kind
of behind the people's themselves. Andyou know, I think that such photo
exhibitions are positive because it shows thelives of people. It shows the lives,
(23:33):
yeah, of those who are youknow, just getting by as they
are in many other countries with verylittle say as to you know, what
the governments decide are otherwise. Soyeah, I think that this sort of
thing, it's baby steps. Ofcourse, the kind of saying is that
you can take up drag a horseto water, but you can't make it
(23:56):
drink. That is very much theidea, you know, when it comes
to North Korea as well. Imean, these exchanges are always a good
thing. I think the worst thingthat you can do, particularly when it
comes to North Korea, is toshut it out completely, because that is
when the narrative the state tells itscitizens begins to play out. And the
(24:18):
worst thing you can do is kindof, you know, confirm the horror
stories that the government is is disseminatingamongst the domestic population listeners. I've been
informed by the Koreophiles Award winning researchteam that the DPRKADE does not in fact
fund Jacobin or the DSA. Weapologize for the confusion, Alexander. It's
got to be difficult to define anentire country's music in like a SoundBite or
(24:42):
to use a single term to describeit. But I want to introduce listeners
to some popular genres in North Koreanmusic, Like, can you touch on
some common themes and motifs that characterizethe music of North Korea? What are
some of its influences right, Well, it's um impossible to cover it all,
but I mean generally speaking since nineteensixty seven, So it's when you
(25:07):
have the implementation of what is knownas the monolithic ideological system. This is
the North Korean words, not mine. The monolithic ideological system is essentially the
future ideology, the ideology which essentiallydeifies Kimmel Song and the actions of the
(25:30):
anti Japanese guerrilla action that they tookpart in before the defeat of Japan in
nineteen forty five, and so sincethen, revolution has been the main theme
of North Korean songs and popular genres. So yeah, as I say,
(25:52):
I study the North Korean operas,the revolutionary operas which emerge in nineteen seventy
one, and as I briefly mentioned, they're quite Yeah, they're they're they're
quite western to um a western ea. Um. One thing that they are
(26:12):
is or one thing they incorporate asong. So songs um are the driving
force of North Korea. Um everythinghas a song. No matter what film
you're watching, there will be atleast one song that audiences can take away,
and the idea is that this songwill disseminate the ideological seed of that
(26:34):
particular piece of art. Songs arethen learnt amongst um the people at their
kind of their work groups songs orwhat they listen to when they are working.
And these songs all kind of impartthe same sort of ideas, whether
(26:57):
it be to remind mind them ofthe horrible feudal past that the Workers Party
of Korea has saved them from,or to you know, encourage them to
study and to work hard for thenation to defend it if need be so.
(27:18):
Yeah U. These songs play avery significant role in essentially driving society
forward. In terms of kind ofinfluences. They're heavily influenced by um,
you know, kind of the popsongs of colonial Japan. There are some
fairly excellent works, none of whichI have to hand I'm afraid, but
(27:38):
some really interesting work that has beendone on the influences of kind of the
colonial era popular music, on thedevelopment of the North Korean musical voice.
If you are interested in that,I recommend you read Keith Howard's Songs for
Great Leaders, which was published bythe Oxford University Press into twenty twenty.
(28:00):
This is kind of the first andonly English language book dedicated to the development
of kind of North Korean music.And yeah, he goes into that and
ed quite excellent details. So yeah, if you've ever listened to trot,
for example, in South Korea,then you will kind of understand what is
(28:21):
known as light music in North Korea, and that is the North Korean popular
music genre. Amazing. One morequestion for you, Alexandra about music.
Over the course of a seventy yearhistory, North Korean music has been influenced
by the country's political ideology, obviously, and have there been any specific incidents
(28:41):
that you know of of music takingon new messages to fit into changing political
environments? In other words, dothe genres or messages of songs change when
a new leader takes over or whenthe party takes on new policy approaches?
Oh? Yeah, I mean,as I just mentioned, the nineteen sixty
seven was like a watershed moment fora lot of cultural production in North Korea
(29:08):
because it moved away from where focuseson kind of production. For example,
you know, before nineteen sixty seven, they were very interested in economic production.
They were very interested in economic growth, and so a lot of their
songs, a lot of their music, you know, emphasized working hard within
(29:33):
within society and you know the benefitsthat this would have for the nation economically.
But from nineteen sixty seven, yeah, we had more songs which specifically
kind of were reverent to the leader, Kimmel song, a lot more pieces
of art which referenced himps in particularas kind of the savior of Korea.
(29:56):
So this is yeah, this isum a definitely a good example to see
the before and after. If wehave an equivalent to that, it would
probably have to be theft Carmones workfrom Home. Yeah, same sort of
idea. I mean, you getit in North Korea in terms of like
we know, for example, likeit during the famine in the nineties,
for example, they came out witha song which translated as King Potato,
(30:22):
and now we know when North Koreais having a difficult economic situation because they'll
sing this King Potato song, that'llsing about potatoes. Now, the thing
is, North Korea only sings aboutpotatoes if there are if there is no
white rice, and there will neverbe white rice if the economy is not
doing well. So if they singsongs about potatoes, um, you know,
(30:47):
to encourage people to eat potatoes,that is our indication that, yeah,
again the economy is not going great. So we can we can find
out quite a lot about, youknow, the dated running of North Korean
society by paying attention to them theirmusical output. You know, the messages
of the day, so to speak, disseminated through music more than anything else
(31:12):
in an accessible way, at leastfor kind of external researchers. King Potato
is fascinating. Wow, thank you. Okay. Something else we were wondering
about is that with the consolidation ofthe North Korean state came cultural reform in
the field of arts, music,dance, literature, and this came in
(31:32):
the form of purgess organized arts unionsand propaganda targeting audiences. The state saw
readers and listeners and consumers of mediato be just as important as the artists
themselves, and it mattered just asmuch how the art was being interpreted and
if the spirits of interpretation was inline with the party's ideas. So in
(31:52):
North Korea today, do the peopleas an audience play a similar role in
disseminating music through the country like theydid in previous decades? Are their moral
responsibilities assigned to listeners from the governmentof the DPRK And how is music incorporated
into North Korean society today? Well, North Korean Society Day today is you
(32:15):
know, incredibly sheltered, right,You're looking at a society that has been
entirely inculturated on one particular type ofmusic. There is not you know,
there's there's not a variety for themto access. I mean, if they're
near the border regions or if they'requite wealthy, they might have access to
external forms of media. Um,you know, so South Korean pop music
(32:38):
and the like, but it's actuallyfairly rare, honestly for that sort of
material to kind of make its wayto people. Um. But you know,
there are significant crackdowns on the disseminationof foreign musical materials in North Korea.
Even recently, there has been youknow, a new announcement that the
(33:00):
sort of thing will be cracked downupon, because yeah, I mean North
Koreans are interested in what's happening inthe South, and if they can access
this material then they do. Isthis a moral thing? Well, I
don't know if we could say it'slike a moral responsibility. The fact is
is that unless people have access tothis outside material, which again you know
(33:21):
very few people actually do, theydon't know any better. For one of
a term, you know, there'sno real history of musical criticism. I
mean this article, this journal wehad CHOSL Normark. This you know,
only ran until nineteen sixty eight,and after that, if you wanted to
you know, know more about kindof music criticism, you'd have to look
(33:45):
at Cho Korean arts. But eventhen, you don't have the history of
kind of like academic discussion or exchangein North Korea as you do outside.
So yeah, the listener basically isjust going to receive whatever the state gives
them, and they're except they're expectedto just kind of take it on.
You know. All right, superimportant question. We are going to be
(34:08):
touching on your area of expertise.What is quary opera? Yeah, that's
the million dollar question. Um,a kind of you know, subject of
my dissertation. Um. Yeah.So. Revolutionary opera is a form that
first premieres in nineteen seventy one.What's something called Sea of Blood Peeper Da.
(34:42):
It is an opera well identified byNorth Korea as an opera based on
a film that was made in nineteensixty eight, also called Sea of Blood
Peeper Dat. And essentially it's thestory of a woman whose name is Mother.
Her husband has been murdered by theJapanese, she's displaced, and essentially
(35:07):
the story of her embracing the revolutionand aiding the anti Japanese guerrillas in reclaiming
her village. It's a story thatis much loved in North Korea. And
essentially there had been other kind ofoperas, other big kind of musical stage
(35:28):
works produced in North Korea before this, but the revolutionary operas became kind of
the peak of North Korean cultural production. As far as Kim Jong Ill was
concerned, he was heavily involved inthe making of these. There are many
(35:53):
many revolutionary operas, but there arefive, which known as the Five Great
Revolutionary Operas that they were all producedbetween nineteen seventy one and nineteen seventy five,
and yeah, these are have nevergone out of production so to speak.
See of Blood, for example,toured very widely after it was made.
(36:15):
The second fully realized work, whichwas The Flower Girl, is something
that has been performed in China overa thousand times and tells a similarly anti
Japanese story about a young woman whoyou know, is able to essentially lead
(36:36):
a revolution within her little part ofcareer as well. So yeah, they're
stories that primarily focus on the revolutionaryactivities of women and are really supposed to
be aspirational. They're supposed to showwomen and men how they can essentially support
the revolution at home, so tospeak. Okay, I love the idea
(36:58):
that revolutionary opera is like a keycultural esport in North Korea. That's really
amazing. And another question that Ihave is have you personally ever attended a
live performance of North Korean opera?Yes? Yeah, yeah, So in
twenty and seventeen I was in Pyongyang, and yeah, I saw a new
(37:28):
opera that had been made based ona nineteen eighties war film, which is
called Wallamdo. I have written aboutthis experience with Peter Moody. Actually we
wrote an article looking at the differentiterations of this particular narrative, and yeah,
it was an amazing experience. Tenout of ten would recommend it's pretty
(37:59):
epic. To be fair, theyalmost didn't let me go. I had
to basically have what was an adulttan trim at the zoo too. You're
allowed to go. Not my finestmoment, Alexander, What would you pick
(38:28):
as your personal number one Revolutionary operasong? Number one opera song? So
it's a song from the Third RevolutionaryOpera, which is called True Daughter of
the Party, and it's a sopranosolo. Essentially. The story of True
Daughter of the Party is about afemale nurse in the Korean War and she's
(38:53):
very excited to be on the frontline saving people. But there is a
moment where she us hope, shallwe say? She feels overcome overwhelmed by
the enormity of the American invasion andshe sings a song called where are you
General now? This song. Themythos behind the song, at least is
(39:15):
that it was personally written by KimJong Il, who initially rejected this opera
because it wasn't reverend enough to theleadership. He penned this song, apparently,
and thus the opera became perfect.And this song is actually played at
seven o'clock in the morning over theloud speakers in Pyongyang to wake up the
(39:37):
citizens of Pyongyang, to get themready for the day. The story behind
the song is essentially she is lost, and she essentially expresses this idea that
you know, despite how hopeless shefeels, if she looks up at the
(39:58):
stars, she looks up at theBig Dipper, she is confided in the
belief that the general, the fatherlyGeneral kil Mosul, is looking at those
same stars, and that gives herthe strength to carry on beautiful. I
(40:19):
love that. And as we beginto wrap up, we wanted to touch
really briefly on North Korean notebang orkaraoke and tourism. And in an article
by Peter Moody called Seeing and HearingNorth Korea through eight Songs, the author
quoted you as saying that tourists functionas intermediaries in North Korea's branding efforts.
Who testifies to the fun, Crazy, Silly and or the nine spectacle that
(40:44):
has karaoke performance in Pyongyang? SoI'm sure anyone who's seen tourism videos about
North Korea has seen the extravagance oflate night karaoke in hotels and in restaurants.
Is tourist engagements with notebang in NorthKorea a way for the States to
export music as cultural capital or ideology? And does this relate to North Korea's
(41:07):
use of music as a cultural andideological export. Yeah, I don't know,
and if it's necessarily if it's aboutindoctrination as such, So in terms
of you know, disseminating ideology,what I think that the karaoke experience does
achieve is it makes North Korea seemsignificantly less dangerous. Shall we say then
(41:36):
the stories would would say, so, you know, North Korea uses karaoke.
Yeah, as I kind of wrotein my article which is called more
than Just Simple Fun North Korean Karaokein Pyongyang and Beyond. It was published
in the European Journal of Korean Studies. Yeah, what I say in this
(41:58):
article is essentially about how karaoke asa you know, kitchig practice, as
a you know practice which is notyou know, seen as politically deep in
the West, is embraced by NorthKorea, who you know, equally embrace
there for one of a better term, unique character to create an experience for
(42:22):
people in North Korea that they willnever forget. And so the understanding is
that you would, you know,while you're in North Korea as a tourist,
you can you know, take videosof these experiences and share them online
and create or at least disseminate adifferent idea of North Korea than that which
you primarily see in the media,which is, you know, the North
(42:45):
Korea of the missile launches and theNorth Korea of the you know, potential
nuclear weapons. The North Korea ofthe karaoke room is significantly less dangerous than
the North Korea that might nuke use. So it's um something that I say
is quite I believe it's quite aneffective means to essentially, you know,
declaw the tiger as it were,and I think North Korea is quite savvy
(43:07):
about this. You know, youdo have places in the world in which
these videos are used to disseminate,you know, particular ideals. So for
example, the karaoke videos that aremade targeting Japanese audiences where they take the
North Korean songs and translate them intoJapanese. There is definitely a political element
(43:29):
to this. But generally speaking,the use of karaoke is basically supposed to
make North Korea look fun and nonthreatening, which is exactly what they want.
And Alexandra, last question. Iknow you've given us tons of recommendations
already, but can you give listenersany more recommendations for songs, books,
(43:52):
films, or anything at all?Yeah, I mean it's hard because you
know, the fact of the matteris most things that you know engage with
North Korea are highly ideological, whetheryou know on one side or the other.
The political kind of positions of thecreators do tend to be fairly extreme.
(44:15):
In terms of kind of academic work, the number one thing I do
recommend, particularly on the topic ofmusic is Keith Howard's book I really don't
think you can go do much betterthan that. The National Googa Center in
South Korea has recently begun producing alot more work on North Korean music as
well, so they came out witha book in twenty nineteen which specifically looks
(44:40):
at elements of North Korean music,and this is put together primarily by South
Korean scholars, which makes a veryinteresting reading. But yeah, because it's
the National Googak Center, the NationalCenter for Traditional Music in South Korea.
They have access to a lot ofsource materials which are unavailable outside of South
(45:01):
Korea, which is very interesting tosee as well. In terms of films,
there is a documentary that was puttogether. Documentary is called A State
of Mind and it came out intwo thousand and four. Nicholas Bonner produced
it and it basically follows two NorthKorean gymnasts as they prepare for a mass
(45:22):
games. So that's also very veryinteresting viewing as well to look at again
the making of these big kind ofcultural spectacles in North Korea. I definitely
recommend that too. Alexandra Lionzini's researchfocuses on North Korean music, post war
opera, and cultural diplomacy in theCold War period. She hasn't speaking with
(45:45):
us today from Cambridge in the UK. Alexandra, thanks Mark for us speaking
with the Korea Far. Thank youvery much for having me. And that's
episode one hundred and seven of theCareophile. Check out my other work,
including my progressive politics panel show Unpackingthe News. At Canada's number one politically
(46:10):
progressive podcast network, Carbinger Media.You can find out more about our community
of more than fifty left politics showsat Harbinger Media neetwork dot com and follow
me on Twitter at Andre MARGULEA specialthanks to associate producer and researcher Jenny Pimantel
for her work on this episode.This has been so cool. Listeners.
(46:30):
You can find me on Twitter atdbgen. The Creophile has been exploring Korean
society, culture in politics since Augusttwenty fourteen, and support from listeners like
you helps to cover costs for broadcastingand distribution. This podcast is produced and
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(46:50):
For listeners around the world like you, and if you can afford just
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our next episode, dropping in thelate summer twenty twenty three. Until then,
I'm Andre Goulay and I'm Jenny pMentel. Thanks for listening. Sun s
You're listening to The Careophile. I'mAndre Lulet. The Careophile has been exploring
Korean society, culture and politics,and highlighting critical, independent voices you won't
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(00:28):
On this episode, we're speaking withAlexandra Lionzini, a PhD candidate at
Cambridge in the United Kingdom who's currentlystudying North Korean music, postwar opera,
and cultural diplomacy in the Cold Warperiod. Assistant producer Jenny Dimantel is in
Toronto and Andre, Jenny, I'mexcited about this conversation. Why did you
decide to reach out to our guest, well, Andrea, I met Alexandra
(00:51):
in the summer of last year andlearned so many things about her and got
really excited about her interests, andI wanted to follow up with her again
because I think her sphere of knowledgeis really interesting and valuable, and I
know it'll make for great material forour show. In this conversation, we'll
be discussing a pretty fascinating topic,Cold War cultural diplomacy, with a focus
(01:11):
on the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, and a little later we'll be talking
about North Korean music and opera.Alexandra at Linzini is in Cambridge. Alexandra,
thank you for joining us. Thankyou so much for having me.
It really is very exciting too.Yeah, be invited, and I'm always
happy to talk about this with ifwhoever will listen. So I am very
grateful to yeah, have a platformto share with everybody today. Last episode
(01:36):
we also explored North Korea, talkingwith Soul based scholar Elizabeth Campbell about the
role of women in North Korea historicallyand politically, and we also talked a
little bit about film and food.So it's going to be fun to build
on that in this conversation. Butbefore we dive into your research, let's
introduce you to the audience really quickly. You've been studying and researching cultural diplomacy
(01:57):
during the Cold War, North Koreanmusic and opera for years. Can you
tell us a little bit about howdid you get into these super interesting but
like kind of niche fields of study. What inspired your interest in these topics.
To be honest, it's quite anembarrassing story. Basically, I'm Australian
(02:21):
and I moved to Germany to basicallybecome an opera singer when I was twenty
two and I needed a visa tostay in Europe a bit longer, and
realized that the easiest way to dothat was essentially to do a master's.
I could have Craigslist, Craigs listeda husband. I did try, and
(02:44):
Yeah basically decided that a masters wasprobably just a lot less emotionally damaging.
So Yeah, decided to do amasters in global history and had the option
to do a fellowship in Paris.And while I was in Paris, I
was supposed to be writing a laborhistory of opera singers, so I was
(03:06):
interested in nineteenth century opera singers andessentially how they negotiated their contracts. Unfortunately,
however, when I got to theParis Opera House, I discovered that
all of my contracts from the periodI was looking at had burnt down in
a file in the middle of thenineteenth century. And as a result of
that, I got a bit desperateand started basically googling a context any situation
(03:31):
in the world where singers, whereperformers were considered as workers as opposed to
artisans. And I ended up comingacross a book called on the Art of
Opera by Kim Jong Ill and Iread it and I thought, my goodness,
this is wild. So I wenton YouTube, looked at the operas
and was pretty impressed by them.I had no idea at this point where
(03:55):
North Korea was being a product ofthe Australian edgucation system geography, it's not
really our strong not really our strongsuit. So yeah, I only knew
about North Korea because of Team America. And yeah, I was talking about
it to a guy I had abit of a crush on, and he
(04:16):
joked about going to North Korea andme, having absolutely no game and severe
ADHD booked a one way trip toNorth Korea basically to impress this guy.
Morla story is, I got toNorth Korea, realized that everything that had
been written about North Korean music wascompletely wrong, and decided that that would
(04:38):
be my new thing. Okay,I wasn't expecting your answer to include a
labor history of opera. That's amazing. So for some contacts, the Cold
War was a time when post colonialnations were put in a position to kind
of make a choice between the FirstWorld capitalism and the second World the Soviet
Union's sphere of influence and political forcesin these newly independent nations often look to
(05:01):
communism as a way to protect themselvesor arm themselves against imperialism and Western colonial
dominance. And during this time,a lot of communist nations, including North
Korea, started exporting the idea ofcommunist revolution as a way to fight back
against these capitalist forces. And oftenthese exports were cultural and in every way
(05:24):
that that entails. So what iscultural diplomacy and what makes it so interesting
in the Cold War context? Yeah, so cultural diplomacy is essentially the use
of culture, be it through music, be it film, be it through
art, through architecture. In somecases, you know, to use elements
(05:48):
of culture to essentially direct, orshall we say, manipulate, how are
the nations of view you as anation state. It's kind of a form
of soft power, so it meansthat it's it's rather coercive. It's a
very gentle approach, you know,in comparison to you know, what one
(06:08):
could say is hard power, theuse of weaponry, the use of um
yeah, guns and threats to influencehow nations view you, um and yeah.
In a Cold War context. It'sparticularly interesting because you have this this
division of the world so to speak. So you mentioned the first World being
(06:30):
you know, the capitalist nations.You mentioned the Second World, which we
see as the Soviet Union, youknow, the developing world we can say
in one case, and so thatwould be more like the Soviet Union in
China during this period. What I'mparticularly interested in is the third world,
which which are the decolonizing nations,and North Korea falls into that, um,
(06:54):
North Korea, many of the nationsof Africa, or you know,
emerging nations of Africa, many ofthe emerging nations of South America and Southeast
Asia in particular. These were nationsthat didn't fall neatly into the kind of
First World or Second World categories,and there was a lot of pressure placed
(07:15):
on these nations from both you know, the West so to speak, and
the communist block are for influence,particularly you know, the African nations.
You know, both the First Worlddown the Second World wanted to exert their
influence on this area because there wasa significant amount of material resources to be
(07:38):
gained. I mean, and soeverybody wanted to create relationships with them.
During the Cold War, though,you have what's known as the non alignment
movement, so nations which don't alignwith either you know, the East or
the West, so to speak.North Korea fancies itself part of this non
alignment movement because North Korea, likemany of the nations in this block,
(08:03):
did align themselves with communist ideas,but they embrace communism as a form of
well, yeah, they embraced communismas a means of essentially fighting for national
independence. So a lot of thiswas inspired more for the anti imperialist messaging
(08:24):
of communism rather necessarily than the kindof class warfare element of it, particularly
because we didn't have well, yeah, class as it was understood in Korea
at this time was not as classwas understood in Russia, for example.
So yeah, it was really moreabout, you know, the dissemination of
(08:45):
anti imperialist ideas. And so thisis what we see in the cultural products
of North Korea at this time.So what were some of the key North
Korean cultural exports and imports at thattime? So, you know, the
time that I studied the nineteen seventies, specifically from we have the Korean War,
for example, you know in betweennineteen nineteen fifty and nineteen fifty three,
(09:07):
and you know, at this timethe sort of materials at North Korea
are producing. They're writing books,they're putting in newspaper advertisements. They're basically
trying to align. Yeah, they'retrying to highlight themselves as shall we say,
a victim of global imperialism, whichis directed primarily at the decolonizing world.
(09:28):
By the nineteen sixties, they're producingfilms which they want to be exhibited
at international film festivals, and manyof these films, you know, highlight
the violence of Japanese colonialism in Korea. And then in the nineteen seventies,
(09:48):
which is the period I'm looking at, North Korea are producing music dramas that
are developed specifically for international audiences inmind. So we have the development of
opera. The opera troops do travel, but they don't travel as widely as
they could because in nineteen seventy onethere is a plane crash and almost the
(10:13):
entire Sea of Blood opera company istaken out. And as a result of
this, the North Koreans are morelikely to send images of their operas overseas,
so they produce a lot of magazinesfor international audiences. So these are
magazines. For example, one iscalled the English title is Korean Women,
(10:37):
and this is published in over tendifferent languages, essentially to promote kind of
cultural innovations in North Korea. Theyoften include big glossy photos of the stage
productions. They include articles which discuss, you know, the plots of the
operas and the yeah, the reactionof audiences within Pyongyang itself, and they
(11:05):
really do what they can to kindof promote the notion that North Korea is
a nation of culture and yeah.In this way essentially try and push the
notion that North Korea is a developednation, it's a civilized nation, primarily
because what North Korea wants is recognitionas a legitimate nation by the United Nations.
(11:28):
At this point, it is notconsidered a legitimate nation. South Korea
at this point is considered the trueKorean nation state, and so North Korea
is basically just seeking recognition within itsown right essentially. Okay, two things
from your research, do you seeNorth Korea as having implemented a successful strategy
(11:50):
in building soft power and in promotingnational prestige? In that period, And
what do you see as gains orlosses made by the DPRK terms of cultural
dialogue and in terms of exchange duringthe Cold War, Well, the Cold
War itself, it does change throughoutyou know as the the nineteen eighties,
(12:11):
UM, you know, plays onthings do change quite dramatically for North Korea.
UM. But I would say,yeah, like in general, North
Korea did they work quite successful inbuilding these relationships. You know even today,
Um, North Korea has a verygood reputation amongst many of many people
(12:31):
from these you know, former postcolonial nations to the extent where we have
active you know, Dutch study groupsin Nigeria, in Angola, in Benin,
um, you know, many nationswhere North Korea were able to export
cultural products. UM. You knowthere are people who still very much support
(12:54):
North Korea's worldview and will continue todo so despite internet national sanctions. So
that alone is proof that this wasvery successful. UM. You know,
even if we if we look inAfrica and the monthrom Day Overseas Project company,
(13:16):
basically it's the the it was awing of the month from Day art
troop that essentially produced memorials. Imean Angola had canceled a three hundred million
dollar project with them. Only afterthe months from day overseas project came under
international sanctions, and that only happenedin about twenty nineteen, I believe.
(13:39):
So as a strategy, it's beenvery, very successful for them. Of
course, this is like you know, swings and roundabouts in terms of gains
and losses. Well, unfortunately NorthKorea, we're about as subtle as a
brick to the face when it cameto their their intense shall we say,
so, you know, an interestingquestion to ask about this is always what's
(14:03):
the difference between you know, diplomacyand propaganda, cultural diplomacy and propaganda.
So North Korea's attempts to you know, or what North kore perceived as cultural
diplomacy was perceived in the West aspropaganda. And this is something that we
see in newspaper advertisements that they tookout in for example, the New York
(14:30):
Times, they would take out wholepage advertisements which basically talked about the wonderful
teachings of Kim Il sung. Thisdidn't play very well to American audiences.
I think we can understand, andit's closer to home. In the present
day, North Korea has been amajor funder of Jacobin Magazine and the Democratic
Socialists of America, which is amazing. I have the double sized duche Jacobin
(14:54):
issue. I'm a coffee table rightnow. I like it a lot.
Oh yeah, Jenny, go ahead, Yeah, Hi, Hi, Alexandra,
A system for the cer. Jennyhere. So, I from what
I heard from your last response,it seems like gaining cultural capital and exchanging
cultural ideas in the context of thechanging cold world marketplace had definitely had an
(15:16):
influence on current day, the currentday system, and current day North Korea.
Do you think that that is true? Also, can you maybe speak
on the state's use of soft powerin today's contemporary era aka the kimdong and
era. Yeah, so yeah,I think, yeah, you're You're very
(15:37):
right. It's had a considerable effecton North Korea today. I mean,
I think what's interesting about a lotof the North Korean I mean, particularly
the music that I study, Sowe're looking at what's essentially classical music in
North Korea is very very Western.And when I say western, I mean
(16:00):
uses Western musical language almost exclusively.You know, to a Western listener,
it's completely understandable, and there arediscussions that I had. There's a North
Korean journal called Choten Normark North KoreanMusic that runs until nineteen sixty eight.
It runs between nineteen fifty five andnineteen sixty eight, and in this journal,
(16:26):
the practitioners of music at the timeare discussing what the music of the
Democratic People's Republic of Korea should belike. You know, they recognize that
they have this power to shape it, and it seems from the get go
they're wanting a music that is comprehensibleto the world. They want it to
be international. And you know,when we talk about successful kind of cultural
(16:51):
exchange, something that this requires isa common language. And Korean wasn't a
language that many other nations spoke.But one thing that a lot of nations
that North Korea were targeting did speak. You know what language they did speak
was the language of Western art music. A lot of the former colonies had
(17:15):
been inculturated in Western musical language bytheir colonizers hymns. Of course, the
Church did a fabulous job of spreadingWestern musical language through the use of Himnity.
So it was a means of communication. You know, music could be
used to communicate with nations in away that language couldn't necessarily and so this
(17:41):
is something that has affected North Koreatoday because this is now the kind of
musical voice of North Korea, somethingthat's heavily tinged in Western music. And
we see this as well, youknow, in the Kim Jongani era.
Today, soft power is less effectivebecause you have significant actions imposed by the
(18:03):
United Nations. So you know,the Nation States themselves are not going to
be you know, as sympathetic,shall we say, to North Korea if
they are smaller nations, because thereare consequences in the United Nations for you
know, dealing with North Korea insuch a way that being said, I
mean, if we look at,for example, the performance of North Korean
(18:27):
art troops in South Korea during thepyong Chang Olympics, there was a you
know, an attempt there to showcasewhat is modern North Korean pop music,
which you know has been touched byHalleu. There are elements you know,
South Korean pop music too that now, so yeah, it was another means
(18:48):
by which North Korea was trying topush forward a particular narrative of itself to
an international audience, and one thatwas very curious about itself. So you
know, there is still very muchan understanding that music, you know,
plays can play a significant role inyeah, in shaping how people view the
state today. M Yeah, Itotally get that about music being a kind
(19:14):
of common language. Photography was alsokind of used in this next example that
I found of North Korean cultural diplomacy. There was a photo exhibit that opened
in New York in March twenty twelvecalled Window on North Korea, and the
exhibit was a collaboration between the AssociatedPress and an American news agency and the
(19:37):
Korean Central News Agency who are basedin the DPREK, and they displayed photos
of North Korea with the intent tofind common ground, breakdown barriers, and
to try and trigger a sort ofsense of empathy for its American audience,
since the photos would offer a rareglimpse into the daily lives of North Korean
(19:59):
citizens. And while some saw thisas a genuine effort by the DPRK to
culturally engage with the US, otherswere more a little more critical. According
to some sources, these exchanges havebeen rather one sided, benefiting the North
Korean regime and the prestige of thecult of personality back home and have been
(20:21):
used to distract or dupe the otherside when it comes to building trust or
working out differences. So my questionis, how can North Korea, whose
national integrity relies on very strict ideologicalbeliefs such as jittin self reliance that are
by definition in opposition to anything thatis foreign, how can they participate in
(20:45):
international activities like cultural diplomacy. Isthere any right or wrong way for them
to do this? This is abig question. So yeah, the idea
that is like, you know,this this doctrine of self reliance is opposed
to anything foreign. Um, isperhaps an overstatement. The the fact is
(21:11):
that on paper, ducha is youknow, opposed to anything being imposed upon
North Korea? Right? Um?But there's nothing against them embracing international you
know, foreign influencers, shall wesay so? The Yeah, the the
(21:32):
the notion of kind of this ideaof cultural imperialism that you know, there
has to be a McDonald's in everycountry, this sort of idea North Korea
would impose, you know, emphatically. If they, however, decide to
open a McDonald's, that is okay, um, because they are essentially um,
you know, choosing to do so. So yeah, I think um
(21:57):
ducha kind of as a doctor isvery Yeah, it's it's very blah as
in it can be used to justifya whole lot of things. But at
the same time there's there's a lotof loopholes in it. The question though
about how North Korea kind of engagesin cultural diplomacy right or wrong, and
you know, there are valid criticisms, shall we say, of the efforts
(22:25):
that the North Korean government itself kindof take to yeah, again shape the
view that the outside world has ofit. I'm personally of the opinion that
you know, these sorts of kindof cultural exchanges, the the photo exhibition
in New York, for example,are largely positive, mainly because you know,
(22:49):
if anything, it humanizes the peopleof North Korea in a way that
I think that media in the USdoesn't necessarily. You know, the fact
of the matter is, you know, like their government or not, it's
still a nation of at least thirtymillion people, many of whom you know,
have very little say in what goeson. And you know, when
(23:11):
people talk about North Korea and NorthKoreans, there's particularly in the American context,
there is often a dehumanization or acomplete unwillingness to recognize the humanity kind
of behind the people's themselves. Andyou know, I think that such photo
exhibitions are positive because it shows thelives of people. It shows the lives,
(23:33):
yeah, of those who are youknow, just getting by as they
are in many other countries with verylittle say as to you know, what
the governments decide are otherwise. Soyeah, I think that this sort of
thing, it's baby steps. Ofcourse, the kind of saying is that
you can take up drag a horseto water, but you can't make it
(23:56):
drink. That is very much theidea, you know, when it comes
to North Korea as well. Imean, these exchanges are always a good
thing. I think the worst thingthat you can do, particularly when it
comes to North Korea, is toshut it out completely, because that is
when the narrative the state tells itscitizens begins to play out. And the
(24:18):
worst thing you can do is kindof, you know, confirm the horror
stories that the government is is disseminatingamongst the domestic population listeners. I've been
informed by the Koreophiles Award winning researchteam that the DPRKADE does not in fact
fund Jacobin or the DSA. Weapologize for the confusion, Alexander. It's
got to be difficult to define anentire country's music in like a SoundBite or
(24:42):
to use a single term to describeit. But I want to introduce listeners
to some popular genres in North Koreanmusic, Like, can you touch on
some common themes and motifs that characterizethe music of North Korea? What are
some of its influences right, Well, it's um impossible to cover it all,
but I mean generally speaking since nineteensixty seven, So it's when you
(25:07):
have the implementation of what is knownas the monolithic ideological system. This is
the North Korean words, not mine. The monolithic ideological system is essentially the
future ideology, the ideology which essentiallydeifies Kimmel Song and the actions of the
(25:30):
anti Japanese guerrilla action that they tookpart in before the defeat of Japan in
nineteen forty five, and so sincethen, revolution has been the main theme
of North Korean songs and popular genres. So yeah, as I say,
(25:52):
I study the North Korean operas,the revolutionary operas which emerge in nineteen seventy
one, and as I briefly mentioned, they're quite Yeah, they're they're they're
quite western to um a western ea. Um. One thing that they are
(26:12):
is or one thing they incorporate asong. So songs um are the driving
force of North Korea. Um everythinghas a song. No matter what film
you're watching, there will be atleast one song that audiences can take away,
and the idea is that this songwill disseminate the ideological seed of that
(26:34):
particular piece of art. Songs arethen learnt amongst um the people at their
kind of their work groups songs orwhat they listen to when they are working.
And these songs all kind of impartthe same sort of ideas, whether
(26:57):
it be to remind mind them ofthe horrible feudal past that the Workers Party
of Korea has saved them from,or to you know, encourage them to
study and to work hard for thenation to defend it if need be so.
(27:18):
Yeah U. These songs play avery significant role in essentially driving society
forward. In terms of kind ofinfluences. They're heavily influenced by um,
you know, kind of the popsongs of colonial Japan. There are some
fairly excellent works, none of whichI have to hand I'm afraid, but
(27:38):
some really interesting work that has beendone on the influences of kind of the
colonial era popular music, on thedevelopment of the North Korean musical voice.
If you are interested in that,I recommend you read Keith Howard's Songs for
Great Leaders, which was published bythe Oxford University Press into twenty twenty.
(28:00):
This is kind of the first andonly English language book dedicated to the development
of kind of North Korean music.And yeah, he goes into that and
ed quite excellent details. So yeah, if you've ever listened to trot,
for example, in South Korea,then you will kind of understand what is
(28:21):
known as light music in North Korea, and that is the North Korean popular
music genre. Amazing. One morequestion for you, Alexandra about music.
Over the course of a seventy yearhistory, North Korean music has been influenced
by the country's political ideology, obviously, and have there been any specific incidents
(28:41):
that you know of of music takingon new messages to fit into changing political
environments? In other words, dothe genres or messages of songs change when
a new leader takes over or whenthe party takes on new policy approaches?
Oh? Yeah, I mean,as I just mentioned, the nineteen sixty
seven was like a watershed moment fora lot of cultural production in North Korea
(29:08):
because it moved away from where focuseson kind of production. For example,
you know, before nineteen sixty seven, they were very interested in economic production.
They were very interested in economic growth, and so a lot of their
songs, a lot of their music, you know, emphasized working hard within
(29:33):
within society and you know the benefitsthat this would have for the nation economically.
But from nineteen sixty seven, yeah, we had more songs which specifically
kind of were reverent to the leader, Kimmel song, a lot more pieces
of art which referenced himps in particularas kind of the savior of Korea.
(29:56):
So this is yeah, this isum a definitely a good example to see
the before and after. If wehave an equivalent to that, it would
probably have to be theft Carmones workfrom Home. Yeah, same sort of
idea. I mean, you getit in North Korea in terms of like
we know, for example, likeit during the famine in the nineties,
for example, they came out witha song which translated as King Potato,
(30:22):
and now we know when North Koreais having a difficult economic situation because they'll
sing this King Potato song, that'llsing about potatoes. Now, the thing
is, North Korea only sings aboutpotatoes if there are if there is no
white rice, and there will neverbe white rice if the economy is not
doing well. So if they singsongs about potatoes, um, you know,
(30:47):
to encourage people to eat potatoes,that is our indication that, yeah,
again the economy is not going great. So we can we can find
out quite a lot about, youknow, the dated running of North Korean
society by paying attention to them theirmusical output. You know, the messages
of the day, so to speak, disseminated through music more than anything else
(31:12):
in an accessible way, at leastfor kind of external researchers. King Potato
is fascinating. Wow, thank you. Okay. Something else we were wondering
about is that with the consolidation ofthe North Korean state came cultural reform in
the field of arts, music,dance, literature, and this came in
(31:32):
the form of purgess organized arts unionsand propaganda targeting audiences. The state saw
readers and listeners and consumers of mediato be just as important as the artists
themselves, and it mattered just asmuch how the art was being interpreted and
if the spirits of interpretation was inline with the party's ideas. So in
(31:52):
North Korea today, do the peopleas an audience play a similar role in
disseminating music through the country like theydid in previous decades? Are their moral
responsibilities assigned to listeners from the governmentof the DPRK And how is music incorporated
into North Korean society today? Well, North Korean Society Day today is you
(32:15):
know, incredibly sheltered, right,You're looking at a society that has been
entirely inculturated on one particular type ofmusic. There is not you know,
there's there's not a variety for themto access. I mean, if they're
near the border regions or if they'requite wealthy, they might have access to
external forms of media. Um,you know, so South Korean pop music
(32:38):
and the like, but it's actuallyfairly rare, honestly for that sort of
material to kind of make its wayto people. Um. But you know,
there are significant crackdowns on the disseminationof foreign musical materials in North Korea.
Even recently, there has been youknow, a new announcement that the
(33:00):
sort of thing will be cracked downupon, because yeah, I mean North
Koreans are interested in what's happening inthe South, and if they can access
this material then they do. Isthis a moral thing? Well, I
don't know if we could say it'slike a moral responsibility. The fact is
is that unless people have access tothis outside material, which again you know
(33:21):
very few people actually do, theydon't know any better. For one of
a term, you know, there'sno real history of musical criticism. I
mean this article, this journal wehad CHOSL Normark. This you know,
only ran until nineteen sixty eight,and after that, if you wanted to
you know, know more about kindof music criticism, you'd have to look
(33:45):
at Cho Korean arts. But eventhen, you don't have the history of
kind of like academic discussion or exchangein North Korea as you do outside.
So yeah, the listener basically isjust going to receive whatever the state gives
them, and they're except they're expectedto just kind of take it on.
You know. All right, superimportant question. We are going to be
(34:08):
touching on your area of expertise.What is quary opera? Yeah, that's
the million dollar question. Um,a kind of you know, subject of
my dissertation. Um. Yeah.So. Revolutionary opera is a form that
first premieres in nineteen seventy one.What's something called Sea of Blood Peeper Da.
(34:42):
It is an opera well identified byNorth Korea as an opera based on
a film that was made in nineteensixty eight, also called Sea of Blood
Peeper Dat. And essentially it's thestory of a woman whose name is Mother.
Her husband has been murdered by theJapanese, she's displaced, and essentially
(35:07):
the story of her embracing the revolutionand aiding the anti Japanese guerrillas in reclaiming
her village. It's a story thatis much loved in North Korea. And
essentially there had been other kind ofoperas, other big kind of musical stage
(35:28):
works produced in North Korea before this, but the revolutionary operas became kind of
the peak of North Korean cultural production. As far as Kim Jong Ill was
concerned, he was heavily involved inthe making of these. There are many
(35:53):
many revolutionary operas, but there arefive, which known as the Five Great
Revolutionary Operas that they were all producedbetween nineteen seventy one and nineteen seventy five,
and yeah, these are have nevergone out of production so to speak.
See of Blood, for example,toured very widely after it was made.
(36:15):
The second fully realized work, whichwas The Flower Girl, is something
that has been performed in China overa thousand times and tells a similarly anti
Japanese story about a young woman whoyou know, is able to essentially lead
(36:36):
a revolution within her little part ofcareer as well. So yeah, they're
stories that primarily focus on the revolutionaryactivities of women and are really supposed to
be aspirational. They're supposed to showwomen and men how they can essentially support
the revolution at home, so tospeak. Okay, I love the idea
(36:58):
that revolutionary opera is like a keycultural esport in North Korea. That's really
amazing. And another question that Ihave is have you personally ever attended a
live performance of North Korean opera?Yes? Yeah, yeah, So in
twenty and seventeen I was in Pyongyang, and yeah, I saw a new
(37:28):
opera that had been made based ona nineteen eighties war film, which is
called Wallamdo. I have written aboutthis experience with Peter Moody. Actually we
wrote an article looking at the differentiterations of this particular narrative, and yeah,
it was an amazing experience. Tenout of ten would recommend it's pretty
(37:59):
epic. To be fair, theyalmost didn't let me go. I had
to basically have what was an adulttan trim at the zoo too. You're
allowed to go. Not my finestmoment, Alexander, What would you pick
(38:28):
as your personal number one Revolutionary operasong? Number one opera song? So
it's a song from the Third RevolutionaryOpera, which is called True Daughter of
the Party, and it's a sopranosolo. Essentially. The story of True
Daughter of the Party is about afemale nurse in the Korean War and she's
(38:53):
very excited to be on the frontline saving people. But there is a
moment where she us hope, shallwe say? She feels overcome overwhelmed by
the enormity of the American invasion andshe sings a song called where are you
General now? This song. Themythos behind the song, at least is
(39:15):
that it was personally written by KimJong Il, who initially rejected this opera
because it wasn't reverend enough to theleadership. He penned this song, apparently,
and thus the opera became perfect.And this song is actually played at
seven o'clock in the morning over theloud speakers in Pyongyang to wake up the
(39:37):
citizens of Pyongyang, to get themready for the day. The story behind
the song is essentially she is lost, and she essentially expresses this idea that
you know, despite how hopeless shefeels, if she looks up at the
(39:58):
stars, she looks up at theBig Dipper, she is confided in the
belief that the general, the fatherlyGeneral kil Mosul, is looking at those
same stars, and that gives herthe strength to carry on beautiful. I
(40:19):
love that. And as we beginto wrap up, we wanted to touch
really briefly on North Korean notebang orkaraoke and tourism. And in an article
by Peter Moody called Seeing and HearingNorth Korea through eight Songs, the author
quoted you as saying that tourists functionas intermediaries in North Korea's branding efforts.
Who testifies to the fun, Crazy, Silly and or the nine spectacle that
(40:44):
has karaoke performance in Pyongyang? SoI'm sure anyone who's seen tourism videos about
North Korea has seen the extravagance oflate night karaoke in hotels and in restaurants.
Is tourist engagements with notebang in NorthKorea a way for the States to
export music as cultural capital or ideology? And does this relate to North Korea's
(41:07):
use of music as a cultural andideological export. Yeah, I don't know,
and if it's necessarily if it's aboutindoctrination as such, So in terms
of you know, disseminating ideology,what I think that the karaoke experience does
achieve is it makes North Korea seemsignificantly less dangerous. Shall we say then
(41:36):
the stories would would say, so, you know, North Korea uses karaoke.
Yeah, as I kind of wrotein my article which is called more
than Just Simple Fun North Korean Karaokein Pyongyang and Beyond. It was published
in the European Journal of Korean Studies. Yeah, what I say in this
(41:58):
article is essentially about how karaoke asa you know, kitchig practice, as
a you know practice which is notyou know, seen as politically deep in
the West, is embraced by NorthKorea, who you know, equally embrace
there for one of a better term, unique character to create an experience for
(42:22):
people in North Korea that they willnever forget. And so the understanding is
that you would, you know,while you're in North Korea as a tourist,
you can you know, take videosof these experiences and share them online
and create or at least disseminate adifferent idea of North Korea than that which
you primarily see in the media,which is, you know, the North
(42:45):
Korea of the missile launches and theNorth Korea of the you know, potential
nuclear weapons. The North Korea ofthe karaoke room is significantly less dangerous than
the North Korea that might nuke use. So it's um something that I say
is quite I believe it's quite aneffective means to essentially, you know,
declaw the tiger as it were,and I think North Korea is quite savvy
(43:07):
about this. You know, youdo have places in the world in which
these videos are used to disseminate,you know, particular ideals. So for
example, the karaoke videos that aremade targeting Japanese audiences where they take the
North Korean songs and translate them intoJapanese. There is definitely a political element
(43:29):
to this. But generally speaking,the use of karaoke is basically supposed to
make North Korea look fun and nonthreatening, which is exactly what they want.
And Alexandra, last question. Iknow you've given us tons of recommendations
already, but can you give listenersany more recommendations for songs, books,
(43:52):
films, or anything at all?Yeah, I mean it's hard because you
know, the fact of the matteris most things that you know engage with
North Korea are highly ideological, whetheryou know on one side or the other.
The political kind of positions of thecreators do tend to be fairly extreme.
(44:15):
In terms of kind of academic work, the number one thing I do
recommend, particularly on the topic ofmusic is Keith Howard's book I really don't
think you can go do much betterthan that. The National Googa Center in
South Korea has recently begun producing alot more work on North Korean music as
well, so they came out witha book in twenty nineteen which specifically looks
(44:40):
at elements of North Korean music,and this is put together primarily by South
Korean scholars, which makes a veryinteresting reading. But yeah, because it's
the National Googak Center, the NationalCenter for Traditional Music in South Korea.
They have access to a lot ofsource materials which are unavailable outside of South
(45:01):
Korea, which is very interesting tosee as well. In terms of films,
there is a documentary that was puttogether. Documentary is called A State
of Mind and it came out intwo thousand and four. Nicholas Bonner produced
it and it basically follows two NorthKorean gymnasts as they prepare for a mass
(45:22):
games. So that's also very veryinteresting viewing as well to look at again
the making of these big kind ofcultural spectacles in North Korea. I definitely
recommend that too. Alexandra Lionzini's researchfocuses on North Korean music, post war
opera, and cultural diplomacy in theCold War period. She hasn't speaking with
(45:45):
us today from Cambridge in the UK. Alexandra, thanks Mark for us speaking
with the Korea Far. Thank youvery much for having me. And that's
episode one hundred and seven of theCareophile. Check out my other work,
including my progressive politics panel show Unpackingthe News. At Canada's number one politically
(46:10):
progressive podcast network, Carbinger Media.You can find out more about our community
of more than fifty left politics showsat Harbinger Media neetwork dot com and follow
me on Twitter at Andre MARGULEA specialthanks to associate producer and researcher Jenny Pimantel
for her work on this episode.This has been so cool. Listeners.
(46:30):
You can find me on Twitter atdbgen. The Creophile has been exploring Korean
society, culture in politics since Augusttwenty fourteen, and support from listeners like
you helps to cover costs for broadcastingand distribution. This podcast is produced and
assistant produced and researched and hosted forfree with no institutional or academic financial support.
(46:50):
For listeners around the world like you, and if you can afford just
a few bucks a month to supportour mission sharing create history and culture with
an international audience, go to patreondot com slash the Creatophile. Watch for
our next episode, dropping in thelate summer twenty twenty three. Until then,
I'm Andre Goulay and I'm Jenny pMentel. Thanks for listening. Sun s
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